C2004/5912, Transcript of Proceedings [2005] AIRCTrans 29 (4 January 2005)

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N 9559

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

DEPUTY PRESIDENT IVES

C2004/5912

HIGHER EDUCATION GENERAL
STAFF SALARIES AND
CLASSIFICATIONS AWARD 2002

Application under section 113 of the Act
by Higher Education Industrial Association
to vary the above award re respondency

MELBOURNE

10.05 AM, TUESDAY, 21 DECEMBER 2004

Continued from 19.11.04

THIS HEARING WAS CONDUCTED BY VIDEO CONFERENCE AND RECORDED IN MELBOURNE

PN149

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will take changes to the appearances.

PN150

MS C. PUGSLEY: I appear for AHEIA in place of Mr Cameron.

PN151

MS J. TAVERNER: I appear for the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union.

PN152

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Where we left this last time was there was to be some discussions between the parties to see whether a consent position could be reached regarding a variation to the Flinders University award. Ms Pugsley, where did you get to with that?

PN153

MS PUGSLEY: Your Honour, I think it is fair to say that we haven't got very far at all.

PN154

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Why am I not surprised, Ms Pugsley?

PN155

MS PUGSLEY: And if you will indulge me, just for the record I would like to put something on transcript for a moment or so. I think it is important to put these, today's proceedings into a context and that is the context in which three months ago in September my association made a relatively straightforward application in this Commission, and the finalisation of that application has been delayed by one thing only and that is this issue of incremental progression which, in any event, is not a matter that needs to be resolved, in my view, in order for the AHEIAs application to be granted.

PN156

It is clear from what Mr Cameron has put on transcript that the basis on which we agreed to an adjournment - in fact, two adjournments since October - for discussions was that the university was in good faith prepared to enter into those discussions to see if agreement could be reached. I think it is fair to say that little progress has been made over the last two months. There was a telephone hook-up between the parties yesterday. The time has now come, in my submission, where today should be used for the making of directions; if we don't manage to resolve matters today to try and get the matter finalised. I don't think it is in the public interest for this matter to drag on too much further.

PN157

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I did indicate last time, Ms Pugsley, that had the application been pressed, it was my intention to make directions to the parties, given that there was still opposition from the unions to the variation that was sought.

PN158

MS PUGSLEY: Yes.

PN159

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So that would still be the circumstance - - -

PN160

MS PUGSLEY: Thank you, your Honour.

PN161

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: - - - if there is not consent between the parties, and directions will issue.

PN162

MS PUGSLEY: I also think it is important to put on the record that the university has behaved with absolute good faith throughout these whole proceedings. In my submission, the unfortunate delay has been in no way caused by difficulties put up by the university or its unwillingness to enter into discussions. The parties ought to be reminded that at the outset when the General Staff Award was first made for Flinders University it was the university that made the application: the application for an award containing the incremental progression structure. During those proceedings the university subsequently filed written submissions addressing specifically, amongst other things, the issue of incremental progression.

PN163

And subsequent to that the university has now agreed upon a new certified agreement which has recently been certified and which contains at schedule 2 a table of salary rates for full time general staff which includes the increments. And I am happy to hand that up. I have a copy for Mr McAlpine. I don't have copies for those - or haven't provided copies to those interstate but I can certainly describe what this document is and - - -

PN164

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN165

MS PUGSLEY: And I would ask for it to be marked.

PN166

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't think we have any prior exhibits. I will mark it AHEIA1.

PN167

MS PUGSLEY: Thank you, your Honour. I simply reiterate Mr Cameron's submissions last - both on 12 October and 19 November - that the university is more than happy to enter into discussions about how to resolve this but we don't know the answer. We participated in a discussion yesterday. I don't think we are any closer to knowing the answer. Now, my experience, and I am sure the experience of my colleagues, is that often these insoluble or apparently insoluble problems can be resolved with the assistance of the Commission and, if a request were to be made that we were to go into conference today, the university would be more than happy to participate in a conference before your Honour to see if we can resolve the matter today.

PN168

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN169

MS PUGSLEY: If the Commission pleases.

PN170

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Ms Pugsley. Mr McAlpine.

PN171

MR McALPINE: I won't say too much, your Honour, to - lest we have the situation further deteriorate. We thought this morning that we were going to go into conference and we were going to put a consent proposal to the Commission which we thought would satisfy the needs of all the parties. Despite what Ms Pugsley has said just then, that is the course that we propose and I understand she did - and I know she did mention that. So our suggestion is that we go into conference as we thought there was a productive teleconference yesterday and Mr Mendelssohn had some proposals to put in conference. And I think that is the position; unless I am mistaken, that is the position of all the parties in Sydney as well.

PN172

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Thanks, Mr McAlpine. Is there anybody in Sydney that wants to say something while we are on the record?

PN173

MR MENDELSSOHN: Only this, your Honour - - -

PN174

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Mendelssohn.

PN175

MR MENDELSSOHN: - - - that listening to Ms Pugsley, I must say that I did not recognise the telephone hook-up we had yesterday from the description given this morning by Ms Pugsley. I thought it was considerably more positive and got further than she was indicating. But if that is the view she takes, that is the view she takes.

PN176

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Well, I guess we will discover how positive it was if we go into conference. Is there anybody else, while we are still on the record?

PN177

MR FLATT: Your Honour, it is Mr Flatt here from the CPSU, just a minor technicality. The AHEIA1 has already been used as an exhibit in the matter of 12 October. On the transcript there was an AHEIA1, amended draft, handed up so the previous document may want to be reclassified as AHEIA2, just a minor point.

PN178

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am beholden to you. Thank you very much.

EXHIBIT #AHEIA2 SCHEDULE 2 TO FLINDERS UNIVERSITY ENTERPRISE AGREEMENT 2004-2006

PN179

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. I will go off the record. Thank you.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [10.13am]

RESUMED [10.24am]

PN180

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I think we may have reached a potential conclusion to this matter. Just to summarise, Mr Mendelssohn of the CPSU will prepare an application to vary the Flinders University Award and submit that application, along with a draft order, the application and the draft being to the effect of varying the Flinders University Award in relation to the classification structure such that the award will replicate the classification structure, or incremental classification structure as it appears in HEGSS. The application and draft will be circulated to each of the parties and to the Commission.

PN181

Subject to the Commission having consent signified to it by each of the parties to the application and the draft, the Commission will both vary the award in accordance with the draft provided and consented to and, at the same time, will vary the Higher Education General Staff Salaries and Classifications Award 2002 to remove the respondency of Flinders University from that award in accordance with the application made at first instance by the Australian Higher Education Industrial Association.

PN182

Now, I think that summarised what we have agreed to. I haven't set any timeframes on that. Mr Mendelssohn, perhaps you could give some indication as to when you think reasonably you could have that draft out and about.

PN183

MR MENDELSSOHN: I would say that I would be able to circulate it by tomorrow, your Honour.

PN184

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right. Well, I guess by the time it gets around the various parties involved and it is considered, that it won't be this side of Christmas that the Commission considers it, but I have indicated in conference - and I will now indicate on the record - that subject to written consent being received by each of the parties to that draft, the Commission will make the necessary orders for variation of both awards - that is the Flinders University Award which will be subject to Mr Mendelssohn's application, and the HEGSS Award which is subject to Ms Pugsley's application - without further need for hearing.

PN185

In the event that consent is not achieved and discussion between the parties can't resolve that issue, then the Commission should be advised that by the parties in which case the matter will be called on for further hearing. Is there anything you wish to add, Ms Pugsley?

PN186

MS PUGSLEY: No. Just thank you for your assistance, your Honour.

PN187

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. And to all the parties have a really good Christmas and New Year.

PN188

MR MENDELSSOHN: And to your Honour as well.

PN189

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. The matter is adjourned.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [10.28am]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #AHEIA2 SCHEDULE 2 TO FLINDERS UNIVERSITY ENTERPRISE AGREEMENT 2004-2006 PN179