BP2004/4557, Transcript of Proceedings [2005] AIRCTrans 428 (21 February 2005)

1800 534 258

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

---

Workplace Relations Act 1996 10462

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH
DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY
COMMISSIONER THATCHER

BP2004/4557,BP2004/4558

s.170MW - power of the commission to suspend or terminate bargaining period

Australian Industrial Relations Commission
and
Her Majesty the Queen in Right of the State of South Australia Communications, Electrical, Electronic, Energy, Information, Postal, Plumbing and Allied Services Union of Australia Automotive, Food, Metals, Engineering, Printing and Kindred Industries Union The Australian Workers' Union
(BP2004/4557)

s.170MW - power of the commission to suspend or terminate bargaining period

Her Majesty the Queen in right of the State of South Australia
and
Communications, Electrical, Electronic, Energy, Information, Postal, Plumbing and Allied Services Union of Australia
(BP2004/4558)

ADELAIDE

10.04AM, WEDNESDAY, 09 FEBRUARY 2005

Hearing continuing

PN1

MR W DEAKIN: I appear on behalf of the CEPU and the unions in this matter. With me are one of the witnesses MR B DONNELLY, who is an organiser with the CEPU.

PN2

MR T McRAE: I seek leave to appear as counsel for the respondent together with MS M SJOBERG.

PN3

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, Mr Deakin? You are going to outline your opening submission for us, are you, now?

PN4

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour.

PN5

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: It may be appropriate after you have done that, if the witnesses leave the court room, other than the witness that is to be called first.

PN6

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, I have already notified the witnesses that that would be a requirement.

PN7

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Good, thank you. You can proceed.

PN8

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: Your Honour, in the past enterprise agreements all the unions and their members were forcibly, by the South Australian government, to be parties the same wage parity agreement which meant that the unions such as the large Public Sector Union, or PSA, dominated all of the discretions, and the main focus of their concerns were their own members. This meant unions such as the LHMU and its members, like all other unions, were having conditions imposed upon them without the right of redress because of the large voting power of PSA. Last year the LHMU with the support of the Building and Engineering Unions were successful in achieving their own enterprise agreement on the grounds that their members were being disadvantaged by the positions taken by the PSA.

PN9

The Engineering and Building Trades Union believe that they too would be in a position to have their own separate wage parity agreement. However it was only after further discussions with the state government that they realised that it was not the case, and that they would be party to the same agreement as the LHMU. This meant that the LHMU would now become the dominant union and its voting power had the ability to impose its agreed conditions upon the pluming and building trades. It has become a case and would become the case of changing one dominant force with another.

PN10

The engineering and building trades then decided that they had had enough and formed its own single bargaining unit. Although the state government refused to formally recognise the group, they did however agree to meet with the SBU. On 26 November 2003 the CEPU and the other unions initiated the bargaining period because the state government would not agree to anything other than what had been agreed to with the PSA and the LHMU. Throughout the negotiations the state government's negotiating team changed. In the beginning it was a Ms Jenny Dunstan, Kay Coleman and Ms Peta Marie. Then Jan Somerton took over after a short period of time and then she was replaced by Ms Melanie Sjoberg.

PN11

Having presented our log of claims to the government's negotiating team they were quite content to talk about our list of demands, but never committed their resolves to any other conditions other than that which had been agreed to by the PSA and the LHMU. This went on for months and the engineering and building trades, SBU, were told by the government that it was not bargaining in good faith and that they were just stalling and playing for time. Everyone was aware that the LHMU were ready to put their agreement to the vote and when that happened the building workers would be forced into voting as well.

PN12

Because the government had used such tactics against the building workers and the SBU, decided to increase all aspects of the industrial action to force the government to negotiate properly with the SBU. Once the industrial took the levels of disruptions to saturation point the government started to realise that as far as we were concerned we would never accept their position and that we were prepared to increase our industrial actions even further. Soon after they came up with a proposal for breaking the deadlock. They said that they could possibly look at alternative methods of increasing the wages if the unions were prepared to do it in the form of increasing allowances.

PN13

They offered the unions a pay increase of $30 a week plus they were prepared to increase all of the allowances with the operative date being 1 October 2003. The unions then demanded that all of the disability allowance had to be all purpose and the government agreed. The government then asked the unions to change its proposed wage claim and put it in a form that would be made up of allowances plus the $30 a week. This would then maintain a nexus between the engineering and building trades. The reason for this, because the government still demanded that the plumbing and the building trades would have to be part of the same agreement as negotiated by the LHMU, and by moving the allowances associated with the trades areas, it would not have an impact on the agreement for the members of the LHMU.

PN14

They also gave the commitment that a clause would be inserted into the State Wages Parity Agreement to that effect, which they have done in clause 18.1.5 of the State Wage Parity Agreement. This was done as a form of a guarantee to the building trade that whatever was achieved by the engineering unions through negotiation and those conditions would also apply to them. This is the only reason why the engineering and building trades changed their format of a wage claim. However, the state government is now trying to reduce our wage claim by attacking the allowance by saying they're outlandish. When a state wage parity agreement was put to the vote - - -

PN15

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Mr Deakin, can I just interrupt you. We're dealing with an MX arbitration. What's the relevance of the material you are putting?

PN16

MR DEAKIN: It's relevant to the approach that we're taking on our claim to the - I am just feeding into our position. The relevance is the claim is made up of allowances and how it works with government workers and the contracting area.

PN17

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: All right.

PN18

MR DEAKIN: I am just giving you a bit of history, your Honour, so that you are fully aware that if any discussions arise out of this, is that you are aware of how we came to this point in our discussions with government concerning this dispute.

PN19

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Very well, I see.

PN20

MR DEAKIN: All right. When a state wage parity agreement was put to the vote the recorded numbers of employees were covered by the LHMU agreement was 7320. The number of people that voted in favour of that agreement was 2444 and 193 voted against it. Of the 193 that voted against the agreement, 140 up to 150 were from the plumbing and building trades. Even during a conciliation conference with SDP Matthew O'Callaghan, Ms Sjoberg was still indicating that they could look at increasing allowances to help reach the agreement, but they were not prepared to accept the rates of pay that the unions were seeking.

PN21

As you can see, the allowances are a key part of the unions' position because of the commitment given to the building trades that took part in the campaign. Before I call the witnesses to give their evidence, I would like to refer to the reasons behind the log of claims without going into too much detail. Over the years since the state government started outsourcing work that was normally done by its own workforce, the state government has continually refused to recognise the relevance of like as like for the unions' case concerning different use of contractors.

PN22

The companies have in the past and in many cases who are currently employed by the government of South Australia to do the same work that would normally be done by its own workforce, and in many instances work alongside each other. The claim that is now before the Full Bench is a claim for parity with those employees of the contractors that the government is using to supplement its own government workforce. Because the engineering and building trades have been dominated by the large public sector unions, the trades have suffered over the years to a point where there is now a $5.76 per hour difference between them and the employees of the contractor and this continues to be a major source of irritation to the government workers. That brings me up to the point of how these discussions have proceeded over the period.

PN23

This claim before the Full Bench today, our position is that it's a case of like as like, a fair balance for work of equal value.

PN24

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Are you going to the work value principles, Mr Deakin, are you going to rely on the work value principle to substantiate that?

PN25

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, we will be seeking that. That's the basis of our claim.

PN26

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: The principles set out in the Safety net review decision?

PN27

MR DEAKIN: Yes. Under the Act it's quite clear that the work value of like as like, discrimination between one group and another for doing the same work of equal value, working on the same pieces of equipment supported by each other. This is why the claim is before you today because the government has refused to recognise that. They have got contractors in and we believe that those contractors, working alongside its own workforce on the same equipment that they'd be working on, the government is prepared to pay the amounts of moneys of $23.05 an hour right now for a person at trade level, where it's own workforce trade level is $16.64, for doing the same work and we believe if the government is prepared to pay the higher contract rates, then they should also be paid to their own workforce.

PN28

That's the outline of our case this morning, your Honour. So I wanted really to make the connection between the allowances and how we have set the allowances up is to ensure that the other trades that are parties, who have been put into a situation where they've had to sign off on an enterprise agreement which will give them less than what we were seeking and the allowances is the key part of making sure that we have that nexus between the engineering trades and the building trades, whatever comes out of this hearing, that they are not left behind, that they are not discriminated against simply because of the situation that exists.

PN29

In the short term, your Honour, that's the outline of our case this morning. We would be seeking like as like for the same work value being done by contractors coming in to do the work and its own workforce.

PN30

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, I understand, thank you.

PN31

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: Mr Deakin, under the terms of the section we're operating under the Commission has a discretion to do a number of things and the first discretion is whether an award should issue at all or not. Do you have a position as to whether you want an award, or you do not want an award?

PN32

MR DEAKIN: Well, we'd be seeking an award, your Honour, if it's possible to achieve here today - - -

PN33

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: So you want this Full Bench to issue an award?

PN34

MR DEAKIN: Well, at this point in time, your Honour, I am not quite sure of the difference between - we're seeking a pay increase and maybe that be done by an award by the Full Bench, that we'd be seeking - - -

PN35

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: Well, forget if there is or if there is not a wage increase or what is in the award for the time being. Do you want this Commission to issue an award or do you not want this Commission to issue an award?

PN36

MR DEAKIN: Your Honour, award such as the - the award we're seeking in the wage parity agreement, the wage increase within the parity agreement. If that is what you are referring to?

PN37

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: Well, are you saying you only want an award if you get what you want?

PN38

MR DEAKIN: No, your Honour, if it's possible to achieve - this really hasn't been - - -

PN39

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: Because if we issue an award you may not get what you want. But the first thing we really need to, or I consider we need to determine is well, do we issue an award or do we not issue an award. I want your view as to whether you want us to or whether you don't want us to.

PN40

MR DEAKIN: Yes , in this case, your Honour, we would seek to have an award.

PN41

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: You do want us to?

PN42

MR DEAKIN: Yes.

PN43

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: And what do you want to be in that award?

PN44

MR DEAKIN: We would seek to be in that award, included in that award would be the wage rates identified in our log of claims which is right now at $23.05 per hour at trade level. As of next year it went up to $25 per hour. We'd be seeking the 36 hour week to bring us in line with the private enterprises, the ones that are coming in. As per the log of claims, there is - - -

PN45

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: That's like the group of trade people that you are seeking to - - -

PN46

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour.

PN47

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Sorry, I interrupted you. You were answering his Honour's question.

PN48

MR DEAKIN: Yes. See, if I could go back to my log of claims, if your Honour can just - - -

PN49

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: No, I just wanted to - - -

PN50

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Is it the claims in the log that you are seeking?

PN51

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, the log of claims.

PN52

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Without modification, or moderation?

PN53

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour. There is a few exemptions to that log of claims. There is the issue such as the disability allowances for infectious diseases and psychiatric ward allowance. That has already been in front of Commissioner Lesses who, by agreement with the government, we put in our log of claims but there is an agreement between us and the government that if it's not sorted out through the wage parity agreement, then he is prepared to look at that as a separate issue and we will do an investigation into the places where people have to work.

PN54

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So that's infectious diseases allowance and the hospital, psychiatric allowance of $1 per hour, is that right?

PN55

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, that's the two that, if it's not sorted out through the Full Bench, yes, and is not identified in any manner with the outcomes of this hearing, then we would be seeking to have that heard by Commissioner Lesses.

PN56

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Well, that's a matter for you to substantiate the case.

PN57

MR DEAKIN: Yes, yes.

PN58

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: In support of an allowance and, as you would know, to substantiate an allowance increase that must be treated as a work value - against the work value principle such that the change in the value would justify the making or increasing the allowance.

PN59

MR DEAKIN: That's right.

PN60

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: Mr Deakin, are there are any items not covered in your log of claims that are currently in an existing agreement or existing award that applies to employees concerned? Everything in the log is everything in the agreement?

PN61

MR DEAKIN: Your Honour, yes, I am just trying to think of any and I just can't think of them.

PN62

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: Yes. The reason I asked the question, Mr Deakin, is because if we issue an award then it displaces the agreement and any other award in its entirety.

PN63

MR DEAKIN: Most of the major points that we have argued in our log of claims are income protection, which has now been provided out there, redundancy allowances. The only thing with the redundancy allowance is, we're saying, because there is this permanency of employment with government which has been agreed to by government, we're prepared to drop off and this has been through the discussions with government, we're prepared to drop off that redundancy payment simply because of the permanency of the employment. But other than that the log of claims is as we see it.

PN64

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: And I take it from your written submissions and from inference, coming back to my earlier question, the reason you want an award to issue is that it's unlikely that you will reach agreement with the government. Is that the reason?

PN65

MR DEAKIN: Your Honour, I have full understanding of where you are going now. Yes, that is the case, your Honour, because there is no chance of any form of agreement between the parties and we'd be seeking the award.

PN66

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: Yes, and that's the reason you are seeking an award?

PN67

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour. I apologise for not understanding - - -

PN68

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: No, I probably wasn't clear enough why I was asking the question.

PN69

MR DEAKIN: Thank you.

PN70

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Thank you. So you want to call your first witness now?

PN71

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, I'd like to, if it's okay to remove the other witnesses now, your Honour?

PN72

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, please. Would all the other witnesses please leave the court room but stay in the precincts so that you can be called at short notice.

<IAN JAMES KING, SWORN [10.23AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DEAKIN

PN73

MR DEAKIN: Mr King, can you tell the court your classification, your
trade?---I am a leading hand electrician for Flinders Medical Centre.

PN74

How long have you been with the Flinders Medical Centre?---I am in my 30th year.

PN75

You were there prior to the outsourcing of - - - ?---Well before outsourcing. We did all the work.

PN76

Do you have the numbers of people that were working in that department prior to the outsourcing, or are you aware of them?---In the electrical section, yes. In other sections, no, but in electrical sections, yes.

PN77

How many electricians?---There are five electricians and one communication.

PN78

That's now?---That's now and the communication is - was added just before outsourcing.

PN79

What was the number prior to outsourcing?---Electricians were standard, we haven't changed.

PN80

But the other numbers have, other trades have?---Other trades, we have lost some trades, we have lost wet trades, lost painters, the fitters have dropped and the plumbers have dropped.

PN81

Have you got figures?---No, I don't have figures.

PN82

What working relationship do you have between your electricians, in-house electricians and the contractors?---Basically we hold their hands. When they first come in we show them what's around because we have local knowledge, first we show them that. In some cases we have to do certain work for them because it requires interfering with the hospital running and therefore we do it rather than the contractors do it because they don't have the local knowledge and the local contact with the people, so we will tend to do some work for them.

PN83

So what y you are saying is they get the contract to come and do the work, but certain parts you do yourselves?---A whole lot of work beforehand we have to do.

**** IAN JAMES KING XN MR MCRAE
PN84

Like what?---Because they - it interferes with switchboards or with other departments because the hospital is not just one department and then we just work on that. It can have - what we do in one department can affect another one, with relate to power supply. So that we tend to do that and we will do that after hours with it's minimum effect, and of course, we know where things are, we tend to be able to do it quicker and easier than with contractors, so we're asked if we'd do that.

PN85

Do you at any times offer to loan them materials or tools to do work or
anything?---Occasionally we will have contractors who come in and will come to our store and say, will come and borrow stuff and then they'll replace it. That happens occasionally. As for tools, the hospital has a policy that we do not lend hospital tools.

PN86

The government during our negotiations have always stressed that you guys do not have a close working relationship with the contractors, that the contractors are usually just construction workers. Is that correct?---Not always, they do - there are a lot of construction work going on there and there are electricians and they are basically the same as they anyway, they're only electricians. They come in. There are small jobs we do. Now, when I first started with Flinders I was - all I did was installation because with a brand new hospital nothing is ever exactly as it's required, so I would do it. I helped strip out the old VIP flats and we rebuilt medical records in there. I wired that as an electrician and I did that with an apprentice, so I worked alongside contractors who were doing the bricklaying and building the walls and the lad and I wired the place up and fixed it.

PN87

So there still was a cross connection with workers even in those days?---Yes, way back, right from the word go. I was employed knowing full well that I would be doing installations. That was what I was employed to do, when I first went there, that I would be asked to do installation.

**** IAN JAMES KING XN MR MCRAE
PN88

So the contractors that come in to do the work, you said that you sometimes have to hold their hands and help them. What do you mean by that?---Well, sometimes we have to show them where things are, like, because they're not familiar with the hospital, so we have to show them. We're asked to show them, we show them. Also there are times when they don't really know the rules, the standard AS3000, they don't always know that. They don't always know the body protective rules and basically we have to tell them that as well and there have been occasions when we have actually had to go and inspect their work because they have proven before to be rather ineffectual and in some cases quite incompetent.

PN89

So when that happens, when the - using your words - they don't do the job correct, are you called upon at times to remedy that, problems that arise?---We have had in the past, have had to, where we have not been able to get the contractor back or the contractor has not come back and we have had to repair it or replace it. We have had times, to give you an indication, I have had to go into a contractor who asked me to come and see because he was reconnecting a board, an existing board, he was reconnecting it, his job infringed on it, and I found out that he had the phase rotation the incorrect way round which would cause a fair amount of trouble throughout the hospital. One, it would make electric motors run backwards and also it would change the power factor within that building, which we try to keep as balanced as we can.

PN90

How would your work have changed over the years?---How has it changed over the years? Pretty well - - -

PN91

Has it changed over the years?---Pretty well we don't do installation any more. No more do we do installation. What tiny amount we do we might do on overtime if available, but usually we're now - the hospital is getting so old that we are now doing mostly routine maintenance, preventative maintenance, breakdowns.

PN92

So realistically breakdowns and maintenance is reinstalling some of
the - - - ?---No, it's usually putting a Band-Aid on a Band-Aid because we don't get things changed. We just have to repair it, but also things have changed too because we have got - technology has changed and so our work changes as more different types of equipment come in. We have had to learn it and use it and so something's got to drop off the bottom, we can only do so much.

**** IAN JAMES KING XN MR MCRAE
PN93

As far as commissioning some of the stuff the contract workers do, do they ever call upon you guys to help them to commission stuff because they don't understand it?---Not so much commission it. What we have done is we have had to go through and check their work at times, especially certain contractors who we have found to have been less than accurate in their work and we have had to go and virtually check their work to find out where they've gone wrong and point it out, either point it out to them, but basically we point it out to our employer and they pass it through.

PN94

But the thing is, if they install that equipment, you work on it?---Eventually, yes.

PN95

So the work that you are called on to do, it's no different except that they probably do the installation?---They come in and do it, they get a nice clean area all wiped out for them and then they get a fair go to run in and do it and then we come along afterwards, usually, and either alter it or we have to work on it whilst it's a hot spot.

PN96

So that's what I am saying, you may have to alter it, you may have to rework on it, and the installation is the easy side of the work, would you say?---Yes. Easier, I wouldn't say it's the easy side, no.

PN97

Would you say there is a complete segregation between you and the contracting areas of the work?---Not really, not really, we do tend to have to work together and they will come to us and see what we want, what our - what's the word I am trying to think of - - -

PN98

That you require?---Not so much require but our standards, what our standards are of work, what our standards are that we require in a hospital and they'll come and see us about that, the good ones do, the bad ones don't.

PN99

But you have a close working relationship with the contractors?---Yes, yes, quite true. They just - quite frequently we will do connections for them. It's a bit hard not knowing Flinders, but we do have an energy plant which basically gives you the steam and refrigeration and emergency generation for the whole hospital and there is a board in there which feeds off - right throughout the whole hospital for the emergency generation. Now, we do connections on that. The contractors bring the wires to it, but we do the connections on it because it - - -

**** IAN JAMES KING XN MR MCRAE
PN100

They bring the wire in, you connect it in?---Yes.

PN101

So you would say without the quality, besides looking at the quality of work that they do, you would say that the work that they do is a mirror of yours, except for the in-depth - - - ?---Pretty well, except the fact that they don't do interlocked equipment. We do. We work on equipment within a boiler house and in the plant rooms where one piece of equipment is dependent on another piece of equipment to work, and so electrically they are connected together, so that if one fails, the other will fail and we have to work on that.

PN102

So you both work on that sort of thing, where one brings the cables
in - - - ?---They would install it and if it's new they would install it but then we would then have to maintain it and do any repairs on it, breakdowns.

PN103

I have finished, your Honour.

PN104

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, thank you. You have provided an unsworn statement by Mr King. Are you relying on that statement? Are you seeking to formally tender it?

PN105

MR DEAKIN: I beg your Honour's - - -

PN106

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Are you seeking to formally tender the statement of Mr King?

PN107

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, yes.

PN108

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Have you done so?

PN109

MR DEAKIN: Of Mr King's?

PN110

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes?

PN111

MR DEAKIN: What his position - I am sorry, I am not with you.

PN112

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: There is a statement that's been provided in the folder from Mr King. I am asking you what you want us to do with that statement. Are you tendering it?

**** IAN JAMES KING XN MR MCRAE
PN113

MR DEAKIN: That was just an outline of the - - -

PN114

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So you are not relying on it, you are not asking us to rely on this statement, you are relying on the evidence?

PN115

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour.

PN116

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Thank you. So we disregard the statement?

PN117

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour.

PN118

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Very well, thank you, so you are not tendering it, it's not formally before the Commission?

PN119

MR DEAKIN: Pardon, your Honour? I am sorry, I - - -

PN120

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: The document is not formally before the Commission, we don't place any reliance on it?

PN121

MR DEAKIN: That's right, your Honour, thank you.

PN122

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Thank you, yes, thank you. Yes, Mr McRae?

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MCRAE [10.35AM]

PN123

MR McRAE: Mr King, is it correct that Federal metal trades staff at the FMC include six electricians?---There is six if you count the communications, there is six.

PN124

Are there also nine mechanical fitters?---Just - I will count them up, to make sure I haven't made a mistake. Six counting myself, sir, sorry.

PN125

Are there also nine mechanical fitters?---I don't know how many fitters we have got. I don't know. To count them out would be one, two, three, four - five, as far as I am aware, not nine, unless you call the shift fitters.

PN126

One refrigeration mechanic?---There is one refrig mechanic, one instruments.

PN127

One instrument fitter?---Yes, and I think three carpenters.

PN128

And one trade assistant?---TA, yes.

PN129

Do you agree with me, Mr King, that in-house staff members employed at Flinders Medical Centre work there and there only?---Yes. Apart from a few spots out, we do have - there is mental health and outside which we sometimes do work in. There is a couple in the mental health industry, child and adolescent mental health, there is also external parts which we sometimes work, only sometimes.

PN130

But on the same campus?---No, they're - one's at Marion and one's - Flinders at Beaufort Park.

PN131

I see, very good. So Flinders Medical Centre in the main but sometimes at Marion?---And on occasions we go elsewhere, yes.

PN132

All right. Now, the next thing I'd like to put to you is this, do you agree that the nature of the work that you do is largely repair and breakdown work?---It is at the moment, yes.

PN133

Would you agree with me that you are never involved in new construction
work?---No, I am not - or would not agree with you there, sir. We do do new construction work and we are involved in it in that we are frequently asked to assist the contractor and he comes in and therefore we are involved with it.

**** IAN JAMES KING XXN MR DEAKIN
PN134

Perhaps we're using the expression in a different way. What I had in mind when I said new construction work, was totally new buildings. If the authorities in their wisdom determined that a totally new building should be built, are you involved in that?---Only to ensure that preparation for it, in such as we would cut breakdowns, disconnect. You are talking, sir, about removing a section of the building, gutting the building and rebuilding?

PN135

Yes, I am talking about new building structures?---You are talking - well, at the present moment they're building the new Margaret Tobin Centre at Flinders, right?

PN136

Yes, yes?---Now, we have already been involved in that in disconnecting the original building. We have had to disconnect the original building.

PN137

Right. That's a freestanding building, I understand?---That is a freestanding building, yes.

PN138

There will be a separate contractor, head contractor, called in to construct that building?---Yes, he will.

PN139

And you won't be involved in that construction except to the extent that you have disconnected the existing service?---That, I can't tell you, sir, because I can't see the future, but I - if we go by past problems of other areas that they've had to build, we are more than likely to be called in to help in some way. I don't know how, but we have been in the past. When we did CCMU we were called in there. When the eye clinic was done, we were called in there.

PN140

Sorry, I'd just like to identify a little bit more closely what you were speaking of there. So this was a new freestanding building?---It was a section of the building, sir, which used - CCMU was originally a courtyard. They then dug it out because it was an uneven site, they dug it out and they built two levels there, one which was CCMU which is basically intensive care, yes, right. We were involved in that as it was constructed. We actually had to go and tell the contractor how to work out for his body protected area. One of our own people went in and showed him and gave him information on what to do within the area.

**** IAN JAMES KING XXN MR DEAKIN
PN141

But did that person actually perform work on the new premises?---Not on that, no, he did not physically work on that premises, no.

PN142

That person gave information and advice?---He gave information we derived from the fact that we had done work elsewhere within the hospital, although not on a new construction, but of the same type of work.

PN143

What you were referring to, I think, when you used the word construction was works inside existing buildings where you have rebuilt facilities?---That is construction, sir. If you gut something, clean that out and rebuild, that is construction.

PN144

Now, the nature of your work I think means you have got a very good knowledge of the hospital?---Yes, sir, after 30 years.

PN145

And, in fact, that is required of all metal trades employees at the hospital, isn't
it?---You would have to because you have to be able to move around.

PN146

Yes. And you have the advantage of being able to hold in your mind where various electrical facilities are in the particular buildings?---To a certain extent, yes.

PN147

Yes. And what levels they are?---Yes.

PN148

And also what their history of maintenance may have been?---Yes.

PN149

And how they connect with other facilities and services?---Yes.

PN150

And that comes from the fact that you have worked on that site over a large number of years?---It also comes from the fact, sir, that I am an electrician and it is part of my trade to know how switchboards connect to other switchboards, and also if, having been on construction sites myself, because I worked - I came off of a construction site to work for Flinders Medical Centre, but it comes in within the paperwork that comes to you when you are doing the job, you are shown where these things are.

**** IAN JAMES KING XXN MR DEAKIN
PN151

But, Mr King, it is also the case, isn't it, that that degree of knowledge comes from the fact that you actually work as an electrician in all parts of any given building?---I would have a more intimate knowledge than a contractor, yes, sir, but by the same token, a contractor when he comes in, he would have a basic knowledge of it within his head. He should have if he is a tradesman.

PN152

Now, when you spoke of the dealings that you had with contractors, I take it you were speaking of yourself and your fellow electricians?---I am.

PN153

And is it the case that you and your fellow electricians are all classed as electricians special class?---I am special class, sir. The others are one step above me.

PN154

But you are the leading hand?---I am the leading hand, yes.

PN155

And that is in recognition of your long service and special knowledge?---No, sir. It is because I have worked on interlocked equipment.

PN156

Very good. Now, you have spoken of this interaction that you and the other electricians had had with the contractors. Can I just get something clarified there. Can I put it to you that if any electrician, or for that matter, any other metal trades staff, are asked to oversee contractors works they are reclassified upwards in recognition of that work?---No, sir.

PN157

Right. Are you certain of that?---Well, I have never been and to my knowledge it has never occurred. The two electricians I know who have been lately involved in it, neither of those men were paid greater to my knowledge. Maybe that's when - see Mr Ford, he would tell you. Sometimes if a - like, at the present moment we have one man who is paid higher, and he is working up on security in the hospital at the moment. He's overseeing the installation of security, so basically working as a leading hand on security, but that's the only outward payment. If he was to go in to - be asked in to say, as he was, in CCMU, I do not believe he was paid extra to do so.

PN158

So that there is no doubt I want to just put this as clearly as I can to you. I put it to you that if metal trades employees are assigned to oversee contractors they are paid appropriate higher rates by way of reclassification?---Yes, sir, for overseeing, yes. For testing, no.

**** IAN JAMES KING XXN MR DEAKIN
PN159

What I wanted to go on to put to you, Mr King, was that what you were referring to in relation to your dealings with contractors was not so much overseeing them but providing them with the local knowledge and skills that you have got?---And I also - I was asked by my management to check what they were doing because we have had problems with one particular firm.

PN160

And when was that?---That was when we were doing CCMU.

PN161

Sorry, I didn't catch the last word?---When we were doing CCMU.

PN162

How long ago was that?---CCMU has probably been in service just over 12 months, I think, I am not sure of dates.

PN163

Can you just explain to me quite what that involved. You were asked to check, check what?---Their wiring. It was a body protected area so basically it's a fairly complicated earthing system of which distances and positions of things are fairly critical and it is spelt out quite clearly in Standards Australia's rules. Now, we went in and checked that they were correct. We were asked to go in and check that it was correct and the contractor was quite willing for us to do so, and which we did, right. Also when they were reconnecting a switchboard that they had disconnected, but was one of our original boards, they asked to come and check, as they did so, and they did - and I did.

PN164

Who in particular asked you to do that?---My management, Bob Crossman.

PN165

Now, Mr King, there is just a few other things I want to put to you relating to these contractors. In fact I think Flinders Medical Centre employ one contractor as an electrician full time simply to change lights, is that the case?---Yes, sir, we do.

PN166

And the reason for that, I think, is that it's a pretty boring job that didn't attract much full time employee attention?---One, sir, it didn't and also the fact that government made it very difficult for us to advertise outside for it. We tried to advertise within the government, which was permissible, but of course, nobody wants to change lights. It is not a very pleasant job.

PN167

Now, I think there is also another contractor employed part time on repairs and maintenance as a supplement to the full time employees?---No, sir.

**** IAN JAMES KING XXN MR DEAKIN
PN168

You say no?---No, sir, no. We have a contractor who's there who does small installation work which is basically contract construction work, but she does not do maintenance or repair.

PN169

When you checked the contractor's work as you described, did you have anything to do with the Certificate of Compliance?---No, sir. No, sir.

PN170

I think in your evidence you referred at one point to complicated interlocked circuitry?---That's so, I think, so.

PN171

What did you mean by that, Mr King?---As I described it, sir. Where we have - the simplest way to say is if you have one piece of machinery that requires another piece of machinery to operate and if one piece of machinery fails, it locks the other piece of equipment out so that you don't have something running that's not required or could cause other damage.

PN172

Give me an example of what you have in mind by that?---Well, sir, I have a boiler which requires a circulation pump. If the circulation pump's the problem, the boiler shuts down. If you fail to keep a circulation through a boiler, you can over pressurise the boiler.

**** IAN JAMES KING XXN MR DEAKIN
PN173

I think the other work that you referred to was preparation work to enable contractors to commence their work?---Yes, sir.

PN174

But that's of the same nature as the work that you would normally perform, isn't it?---Well, not really, sir. We don't normally just walk around pulling things out.

PN175

I am sorry, you have lost me there, Mr King?---Well, if I am preparing for a contractor to work, quite frequently we are the ones who go in and make - render the place safe. We kill circuits. Then the contractor comes in and he strips, because their electricians don't come in until virtually the place is gutted.

PN176

Right. Yes, that's all I have, your Honour.

PN177

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Thank you very much. Anything?

PN178

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, I'd like to ask a question.

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DEAKIN [10.51AM]

PN179

MR DEAKIN: It's been emphasised by the government that, mainly that you inspect the work. Is there any hands on work that you do with these contractors, in other words, say the use of tools and certain pieces of equipment?---Not really. With Flinders we usually prepare for the contractors.

PN180

Right, so you prepare, so you do all the stripping down, strip out?---Yes.

PN181

And they put in and then you follow up behind?---Yes.

PN182

But mainly on the same type of work?---Basically the same sort of work.

PN183

Could you name some of the companies that actually come in and do this
work?---PCB is one, Plastek is another, Boffer and Russo have been in, they were a fair while ago, Watters.

PN184

Has Nelson ever come in there?---Not to my knowledge, but I don't know them all.

PN185

So PCB, Boffers and also Watters?---Yes, they're pretty well - - -

PN186

They're considered construction contractors?---Yes.

PN187

But they come in and do the maintenance work, the installation work?---They do the installation, they don't do maintenance as - - -

PN188

No, no, no?---Whether - I am not too sure whether you wanted a determination of maintenance - - -

PN189

Well, breakdown maintenance?---Breakdown maintenance is always - with Flinders, unless it's something like a transformer is blown, which we will call in - usually Plastek will come in and do that.

**** IAN JAMES KING RXN MR DEAKIN
PN190

So it's mainly that it is if the equipment actually breaks down and then you have got to change that equipment over and put it in, and you prepare for that and then they put it in and you finish it off?---Yes, pretty well.

PN191

So mainly you are still working on the same piece of equipment?---Yes.

PN192

Thank you, your Honour.

PN193

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Mr King, thank you for your assistance, you are excused from the witness box. You can leave the court or you are welcome to stay, thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.53AM]
<GRAHAM MUNN, SWORN [10.54AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DEAKIN

PN194

MR DEAKIN: Mr Munn, how long have you been an employee at the Flinders Hospital?---I have been employed for 16 years.

PN195

What was your position prior to that?---Prior to going to the Queen Liz I was a self employed contractor.

PN196

Self employed contractor?---Yes.

PN197

So in 16 years were you employed with QEH before the outsourcing of the
work?---I certainly was. We had a staff there of 72 when I started, covering all trades and skills. We now have a staff of 27. Unfortunately the 27 people left there now do the skills that all the ones that took the package deal do. We have adapted to them and we have become, not only multi-skilled, we have become super multi-skilled.

PN198

Let me ask you a question. Has the variety of work that you are called upon to do changed because of that reduction in the workforce?---Yes. I was employed as an electrician, basically to do basic electrics, but since our electronics high voltage and a lot of other people left, I now do TVs, VCRs, PLC work, nurse call, crash alarm systems and high voltage.

PN199

You do that high voltage?---Yes.

PN200

I will come back to that high voltage, but does the department use contractors to supplement you guys or - - - ?---Because of the shortage of labour, yes. We can't do everything because there is a fair demand on hospital with reconstruction, et cetera, et cetera, yes, they are calling in the contractors which has become quite a sore point with the boys on the shop floor.

PN201

Could you name some of the contractors that are called upon to do the work at QEH?---Well, Tomlinsons come in for the boilers, VIP electrical, Maysbury Plumbers, Goode Communications, I mean, good god, I am sorry, I can't remember them all but there is vans there consistently trying to - - -

PN202

So the vans, is there a lot of contractors that come in to supplement your work load?---Yes.

**** GRAHAM MUNN XN MR DEAKIN
PN203

Are you ever called upon to give them assistance?---Yes, we are. Because they are raw to the plant and we have in-house knowledge, they rely heavily on us to guide them to the site to start with and then through the system of how it works so that they can do the repairs.

PN204

Do you say you do any preparatory work before them coming in?---In some cases we have to open up the switchboards and get things ready for them, so, yes.

PN205

So dismantle, disconnect?---Yes.

PN206

Would you say, on the breakdown maintenance issues, the - also there is preventative maintenance and breakdown maintenance, is there any talk about construction work, there is usually minor construction work and major construction work. Do you do any of the minor construction work?---Again, because we're short of labour, yes, we have been cut back to minor only now, yes, mainly small stuff like the new circuits and additions to switchboards.

PN207

Do you see any difference between the work of a construction electrician and that of you as far as your knowledge and understanding of electrical - - - ?---Yes, skills, yes, the maintenance workers skills are far above and beyond the construction worker. Not only does he have to install the machine, he's got to know how it works and all the repairs and faults associated problems with them. Whereas the construction worker simply comes in, wires in, plugs in and goes.

PN208

You talked a few seconds ago about high voltage work. What does that
entail?---We do the switching and operating and the 11,000 volts - this is something I never learnt in my trade and I don't think too many electricians are taught high voltage in their trade. This was new to me when I started at the hospital and ETSA train us, because of the complexity and the associated problems, we're trained every 12 months by ETSA to keep in touch, not only at ETSAs site, but they teach us on the hospital with the system there too.

PN209

So you have people coming in from ETSA to teach you how to do the work that they would normally do?---That's correct.

**** GRAHAM MUNN XN MR DEAKIN
PN210

And if you didn't do it, they would have to come in and do it?---Either ETSA or they would hire in Nielsen's High Voltage team, a specialised team.

PN211

So the high voltage stuff as well as the - so in that situation you have got - if you couldn't do it, then you would have to call in ETSA?---We would have to call in ETSAs high voltage - the specialist team.

PN212

Are you licensed to work in that area?---We get a certificate from ETSA to say that we are now licensed to handle and work on high voltage, are competent.

PN213

And that's a utilities command to give you that training?---Yes.

PN214

Is there situations where you would be properly working alongside other electricians, contractors who come in to do the work and you'd probably be working in the same area, same equipment?---Yes. Yes, there is, on the sterilisers and on some of the switchboards. Only the other day I had to work with a VIP electrician on a main switchboard in Emerg Services to give him the guidance and things to get through some of the circuits.

PN215

When you talk about giving him the guidance, is that hands on with tools as well?---No, because - no, he had the contract to do the job and I was purely there as - - -

PN216

But you would still work on that piece of equipment, repair and maintain after he's finished?---Two minutes after he'd finished, if there was a fault, and actually to be quite honest, and I probably might be speaking out of turn here, there was a fault just after he left caused by him which I went and repaired.

PN217

So although he put the equipment in and installed it, to maintain it, within two minutes you were back working on it?---There was a slight error, but we sorted that out.

**** GRAHAM MUNN XN MR DEAKIN
PN218

So the range of work that you do as far as electrician in the contracting area as an electrician, would you say - what I am talking about is the requirements of an electrician to be able to work in contracting construction and maintenance, the only difference being, is the extra skills required in maintenance, is that what you are saying?---A maintenance electrician is virtually a contractor, a contract - or, yes. There is no difference. I mean, you get taught your trade and to do the contract work you do the basics, and that's very basic contract work and that's the installation of running a cable from A to B, clipping it and connecting the machine. It's so simple it's a piece of cake. The maintenance is entirely a different situation where now you have to not only know how to get the machine fed with cables, you have got to go into the machine's brain, diagnose it in case of a PLC download and find the fault and repair and because of the skills associated with this in-house team, because we work with fitters and associated trades there, it's come to the point where an electrician can walk to a machine and because he's worked with fitters and gained his knowledge, I can tell that a mechanical fault has caused my electrical fault, so therefore I am now doing two jobs. This works vice versa for the fitter.

PN219

So you referred to before that Nielsen's would probably - if ETSA didn't come out and do the high voltage, that Nielsen's would probably come and do it. Is there any instances of that occurring?---Yes, there is. We were short of men one day and we had a major blow up in the hospital and ETSA weren't available and Nielsen's High Voltage team came in to do the switch and we needed three men - to do any high voltage switching, we need an observer, an operator and - I forget what the other guy's title is - but three are required to do the switching because of the safety aspects.

PN220

So how many would, in your workshop, be qualified with the high voltage
work?---We have got five men there at the moment qualified.

PN221

In summing up, basically the equipment that you'd be working on, you probably - if a new installation was being - if a piece of equipment was being installed, you would disconnect the old machinery, it would get prepared for the new being put in, you would probably help them set it up afterwards?---Yes.

PN222

I am finished, your Honour.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MCRAE [11.04AM]

PN223

MR McRAE: Mr Munn, is it correct at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital there are five electricians employed?---That's correct.

PN224

Then generally in the metal trades area three refrigeration mechanics?---That's correct.

PN225

One engineering associate?---Yes.

PN226

Eight mechanical fitters?---Yes.

PN227

And one trade assistant?---Two trade assistants at the moment.

PN228

Is it the case that in relation to electricians there are a group of duties commonly performed starting with what can be described as preventative or routine maintenance?---We do do that, yes.

PN229

Do you also carry out breakdown maintenance?---Correct.

PN230

And you do minor works?---Yes.

PN231

Is it the case that you are never involved in new construction work?---No, that is not the case. It has certainly eased off since we have been so short of labour, but no, since I have been with the QEH I have been in fairly large construction stages with the development of pharmacy and other projects. I must admit it has eased off because we're short of labour, but we have.

PN232

Are you referring there, sir, to work inside an existing building or the construction of a new freestanding building?---I am talking, sorry, of working inside a building, but demolishing the whole ward and knocking walls down and redoing, so it's not a whole new project, if that's what you are getting at.

PN233

So I think it's the case that contractors are called in to carry out new construction work in the sense of preparing a new freestanding building or a major addition to an existing building?---Yes.

**** GRAHAM MUNN XXN MR MCRAE
PN234

Is it the case that private contractors are usually used for specialist tasks?---Only if we can't handle them, yes, specialised equipment and machines, they do bring in the firms associated with that product.

PN235

And these would be things that your normal group of employees could not perform because of its specialised nature?---It would be because the firms reluctantly give us the information on some of the PLCs and stuff so that we can't actually determine the fault. They hold back information so, but we go so far as we can with it until we have to call them.

PN236

So, for example, in relation to proprietary equipment, independent contractors are used?---Correct. May I just quote a case where we had a steriliser in CSSD where Atherton's or Katingi were called in to repair it. They had two men there for three days. Eventually they left. The fitter and myself fixed the fault in 20 minutes.

PN237

Is it the case that in relation to proprietary equipment the particular companies require that particular contractors be used?---Some - yes, some companies do insist that they have their own men work on their equipment.

PN238

And that might be for reasons such as the software or other specialised tools involved?---I would say personally it would be to keep their employees employed, this is why they're holding back information from us. Should they supply that little bit of information to us, we would be capable of performing the duties.

PN239

But the fact is that they don't supply it?---They don't always supply it, no.

PN240

And examples of that sort of activity include automatic doors, would you agree or disagree?---No, they work on automatic doors. There has been a contract sublet on the automatic doors.

PN241

Instrument washers?---There is a contract on the instrument washers but we only call the contractor in after we can't find the fault.

PN242

Standby generators?---We do maintenance on those. The contractor is only called in if there is a fault.

PN243

Lifts?---Lifts are subcontracted and always has been.

**** GRAHAM MUNN XXN MR MCRAE
PN244

Nurse call systems?---Nurse call systems, again we work on those up until the point where the contractors held information back and won't supply us parts.

PN245

You say the contractor holds information back. Isn't it the case that the contractor is simply asserting the rights that he has on the equipment?---I don't have a problem with that.

PN246

Now, sir, I think the situation is that you work on the QEH site and that site alone?---I - at the moment, yes. No, I am sorry, let me rephrase that. I go to Mental Health Services, Port Adelaide, Beaufort Clinic and up until recently Hillcrest.

PN247

Port Adelaide and Hillcrest, so three sites, QEH, Port Adelaide, Hillcrest. How often do you go to Port Adelaide?---Probably once every two or three weeks.

PN248

How often to Hillcrest?---Hillcrest has actually been taken off us at the moment. It's under Lowe & McEwan.

PN249

So it's the QEH and Port Adelaide and Port Adelaide once every three
weeks?---And Beaufort Clinic which is Woodville Road, sorry, yes. Most of our work is in QEH.

PN250

How far is the Port Adelaide site from the QEH site?---7.4 kilometres.

PN251

Because of your employment on the one site for a long time I think it follows that you have got a very good knowledge of the buildings and facilities
involved?---Correct.

PN252

And you are in a position where you can help contractors identify switchboards, isolation points and the like when they're called in?---Correct.

PN253

And that's something that I suppose you don't mind doing?---Under normal circumstances, no, we don't mind doing that.

**** GRAHAM MUNN XXN MR MCRAE
PN254

I want to put it to you that if you are called upon to actually oversee contractors as distinct from facilitate them in the way I have just described, then you are reclassified upwards on account of that activity?---That is not correct. My supervisor would be overseeing. None of the men on the shop floor would oversee a contractor.

PN255

Sorry, sir, I didn't quite grasp that. Are you saying it's not true that any one of the tradesmen electricians would be doing that?---Not as a supervisory role, no, unless they were transferred up, promoted for the supervisor on leave. Normally speaking the supervisor does supervision of the contractors' complete work.

PN256

But I think that quite often happens, doesn't it, that tradesmen are appointed, promoted up when people are on leave?---No, they bring down, especially with the supervisor, Peter Gazee, they bring down a chap from the top management section.

PN257

However that may be, the case is that the tradesmen don't supervise, they facilitate?---We help the contractors.

PN258

Sometimes I think contractors are called in for some minor works on existing buildings such as new switchboards and the like?---Correct.

PN259

In that case there'd be a liaison between the employed team leader and the contractor's employees on issues of local knowledge?---Yes.

PN260

Would it be fair to say it would be at that level that the interaction that you have referred to between electricians and contractors would most commonly
occur?---I would say 80 per cent. 20 per cent would still be relying on in-house electricians. The team leader will often send us off with the contractor to go. He's got other duties, so he'll send off an electrician with the contractor.

PN261

I think you said prior to working at the hospital you'd been a private contractor. Have you ever worked in the construction industry as an electrician?---Yes.

PN262

Aside from being a private contractor?---No, I worked on construction for seven or eight years, yes.

**** GRAHAM MUNN XXN MR MCRAE
PN263

How many years ago was that?---This is going back 20, 25, 30 years ago.

PN264

Now, I think at one stage, sir, you referred to some high voltage work?---Yes.

PN265

How often would you do that?---We do that probably three to four times a year, regular maintenance runs under the maintenance schedule. However, if there is a power failure or a fault, it's probably average, two to three times a year. It drips through, it's a failure - and we had to do switching, urgent switching - probably half a dozen - - -

PN266

Well, it's the case, isn't it, that the hospital is surrounded by a set of high voltage power lines and that there has to be a step down of the power so as to permit it to be used efficiently?---We have what they call a ring system where we have got two feeds coming in to the hospital and we have an open point, both - two halves of the hospital are fed from two separate feeds. Should we lose one we close the link and then feed the hospital via the other supply.

PN267

I will just be a bit more specific. I want to put it to you that there is an 11,000 volt system which was originally installed by ETSA which is used to power the hospital's requirements?---Correct.

PN268

And I want to further put it to you that there is a series of step down transformers that take the voltage down from 11,000 to 415?---Throughout the hospital, yes, there is.

PN269

These transformers are normally maintained annually?---Yes.

PN270

Normally a contractor called Nielsen's is utilised to do that?---Yes.

PN271

But of course because that involves a shut down, there are implications for hospital electricians in maintaining and isolating services?---We isolate the transformers by switching 11 kv switches.

PN272

But what I want to put to you is that your involvement with the high voltage system is not with the high voltage system itself, but with the interface of the step down required?---I am sorry, but I am a little bit confused. We actually break the 11,000 volt switches and then go to the step down transformers and isolate them.

**** GRAHAM MUNN XXN MR MCRAE
PN273

How often do you do that each year?---That's every time there is a maintenance shutdown.

PN274

How often is that?---Four times a year for the regular maintenance.

PN275

So you say this 11,000 volt system is maintained, is maintained four times a year?---We break the switches, rack them out and repair any - check all contacts and service the 11,000 kv switches.

PN276

In the meantime what do the Nielsen's group do?---Nielsen's are taking oil samples from the step down transformers. Because we haven't got the labour, we haven't got men to go round and do all that.

PN277

So is it the case that contractors such as Nielsen's are used either where the hospital doesn't have the labour or it doesn't have the equipment?---That's correct.

PN278

So as, for example, I think Nielsen's are called in to perform infrared scans from time to time?---Correct.

PN279

Would you broadly agree with me that the metal trades award group is widely used but in general terms contractors are used where specialised equipment or specialised knowledge is involved?---I guess broadly what you are saying - - -

PN280

Broadly?---Yes, broadly, very broadly.

PN281

And then a further exception would be where there are proprietary equipment issues involved?---Yes.

PN282

Yes, thank you, your Honour.

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DEAKIN [11.19AM]

PN283

MR DEAKIN: The question that has just been put to you is where specialist equipment is involved and the next one that was put to you was where proprietaries. Now, do you see that as the same or as different situations?---I see it as the same, I think.

PN284

You refer to when the contractors come in you work on all the equipment except for where the client has withheld information?---Yes.

PN285

Would I be right in saying that's the sealed electronics component of the piece of equipment?---Yes.

PN286

Mainly, and I will just go and give you some examples, say, Honeywell or Satchwell?---Yes.

PN287

But you do all the other work?---Yes.

PN288

When we talk about contracting and we talk about maintenance electricians, installation of cables, is it any different than what you would do, if you were to install a cable as a maintenance electrician, would that be any different as a contractor on a construction site?---No, it's the same thing, it's the cable.

PN289

When you would be installing light circuits as a maintenance or altering and, say, preventative maintenance and you install a light circuit, would that be any different than a contractor doing the same work on construction?---It's identical.

PN290

Installation of boards, would that be any different?---Same.

PN291

Fault finding that you would be required to do on a construction site and installing plant and equipment on a construction site, would that be any different to the process that you would normally take on the service and maintenance?---In the maintenance, service and maintenance there is a vast difference because it doesn't happen on the construction site.

PN292

So you say that's the only difference that would be applied is that the fault
finding - - - ?---The repairs maintenance and fault finding side of it is a whole different field than construction.

**** GRAHAM MUNN RXN MR DEAKIN
PN293

So as an electrician working on a construction, an electrician working in maintenance, and except for the extra skills and probably experience required on the maintenance area, would be the same?---The experience and expertise required to be a maintenance fault finder or work in a hospital situation such as I do is so far superior than a construction worker, it's just not funny.

PN294

So the basic work of installing boards and equipment is basically the
same?---Bread and butter stuff, for anybody.

PN295

When you refer to the issue of you working alongside Neilson Electrical to do the high voltage, you know, that you would have to do the equipment, the check and maintain the equipment. You said that Nielsen's then would do the oil
samples?---That's correct.

PN296

Oil sampling?---Yes.

PN297

What would that entail? Is it a very highly - - - ?---It's very technical. They turn a tap on and run some oil into a bottle which gets sent off to ETSA for analysis.

PN298

So it then goes to ETSA for the analysis?---Yes.

PN299

They don't do it themselves?---No.

PN300

Now, you could possibly do that too?---We haven't got the testing equipment there but had - if we did have the testing equipment we could, but we don't because we don't have the equipment.

PN301

Does Nielsen's have its own equipment?---I believe - I may be wrong here - I believe they send it to ETSAs testing laboratories.

PN302

This issue of the red scanners, infrared scanners, what's that?---I believe the question is referring to infrared scanning of cables for over temperature, hot joints, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera - - -

PN303

Overheating of joints?---Yes.

**** GRAHAM MUNN RXN MR DEAKIN
PN304

Do you have that equipment?---We haven't got that equipment. Again, that's not our fault. If the hospital purchased it, it would only be a matter of us going off and doing that job. I think the hospital hasn't done a lot of these things is because we haven't got the labour.

PN305

But it's nothing special that you couldn't do if there was equipment there?---No.

PN306

Thank you very much.

PN307

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Thank you very much. Mr Munn, you are excused from the witness box now. Thank you for your assistance?
---Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.23AM]

PN308

MR DEAKIN: I'd like to call Bob Donnelly.

PN309

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes. Did we receive a witness statement from Mr Donnelly?

PN310

MR DEAKIN: No, your Honour. It was listed but we haven't - - -

PN311

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: That's right, that might put Mr McRae in a difficult position. We will proceed and then we will see what the position of the respondent is. Can I take it that you are not relying formally on any of these witness statements that you have filed? Can I deal with Mr Munn's first? Are you relying on that?

PN312

MR DEAKIN: Relying on the witness statements, yes, your Honour.

PN313

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So you are formally tendering that?

PN314

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour.

PN315

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: Mr Munn's witness statement?

PN316

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour.

PN317

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So you are not relying on the witness statement of Mr King, but you are relying on the witness statement of Mr Munn?

PN318

MR DEAKIN: Well, I take it back. Mr King's statement to me mirrored what he'd been saying.

PN319

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: It's up to you. I want to know what you are asking us to rely on, what you formally - - -

PN320

MR DEAKIN: I rely on the witness statements, your Honour.

PN321

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, well, they're not sworn witness statements. They're not sworn and you haven't taken your witness to them to verify what they've put which is the normal procedure if they're unsworn statements. That's why I asked you about Mr King and you said - the statement, you said you were not relying on it. I have crossed it out and noted on my folder that you are not relying on that statement. Now, you have got to be clear, Mr Deakin, on what you are relying on and what you are not relying on so that, for the other party and for members of the bench. We're weighing all this evidence in consideration. Now, are you relying on Mr Munn's statement or aren't you?

PN322

MR DEAKIN: Witness statements of witnesses in the box today, yes, your Honour.

PN323

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: The witness statements filed in
writing - - -

PN324

MR DEAKIN: No, your Honour.

PN325

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: In support of submission. Are you relying on those statements?

PN326

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, I will do, yes.

PN327

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Except for Mr King's statement because you have said that you are not relying on it?

PN328

MR DEAKIN: If I may retract that one, I will then rely on that statement as well, your Honour. If I may.

PN329

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, all right. You proceed with the next witness.

<ROBERT DONNELLY, AFFIRMED [11.26AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DEAKIN

PN330

MR DEAKIN: Mr Donnelly, can you give me the areas of coverage that you have as an organiser?---Yes, I can. I am an organiser with the Electrical Division of the CEPU and the areas that I look after principally are the power industry throughout South Australia, that's the supply authorities and the contractors. I also look after Trans Adelaide, which is a government department, and Transport SA.

PN331

Mr Donnelly, on the high voltage equipment that we have been talking about with Mr Munn, if a hospital department didn't have the people to do that work, what would happen?---If the hospital department wasn't doing the work themselves they would use a contractor which could be somebody like United KG or Nielsen's or they could even put the tender out for ETSA Utilities which is the old ETSA Corporation which is now a private company.

PN332

Is a person, when working on high voltage, have got to be qualified, licensed in that matter?---Yes, they certainly do. They need to have electrical worker's registration and they need to have some other, if you like, in-house training so they're competent to do that type of work, because it's above what your basic apprenticeship is.

PN333

So no ordinary electrician can do that work?---A normal electrician could go and do that work, they'd have to be trained and get the qualifications to do that.

PN334

The discussions that you have had - you also look after Transport SA?---Yes, I do.

PN335

What is your thoughts on the number of people that used to work with
Transport SA and no longer - the workforce has been reduced. Sorry, I rephrase all that?---Yes.

PN336

How long have you been looking after that area?---I have been looking after that area, Transport SA and Trans Adelaide for approximately four or five years.

PN337

Four or five years. Has there been a reduction in the workforce?---There was a reduction in that workforce before I took over where the workforce was reduced due to outsourcing et cetera.

PN338

Are you aware of any contractor being brought into that area?---There is contracts been bought into Transport SA to do various forms of work. In Trans Adelaide, there is lesser type of contractors.

**** ROBERT DONNELLY XN MR DEAKIN
PN339

So there is a number of contracts that you would have an enterprise agreement with?---Yes, we have enterprise agreements with contractors in the electrical area, yes.

PN340

And they come in to do the government work?---And some of those come in to do the government work, that's correct.

PN341

Could you name those contractors?---Some of those contractors, there is Nielsen's for example, and United KG could be another one, I can't affirm that United KG is one, but certainly Nielsen's do come in and do that type of work.

PN342

So they do all that type of work, do they do maintenance work?---Yes, they do maintenance work and construction work.

PN343

There is an effort being made that the difference between construction work and maintenance work, do you see there is a major difference?---In the enterprise bargaining agreements that we do in the industry, there is no difference between the construction or maintenance. United KG for example, their wage rates cover maintenance and construction work. There is no difference.

PN344

And those are the companies that actually get involved in Transport SA and Trans Adelaide?---Nielsen's do. I am not so sure about United KG.

PN345

I will leave that at this point, your Honour.

PN346

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: That's the extent of your questions?

PN347

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MCRAE [11.30AM]

PN348

MR McRAE: So, Mr Donnelly, I understand you have been involved with Transport SA?---That's correct.

PN349

In an organising capacity?---That's correct.

PN350

Can I put to you therefore that there are certain activities of that department - first of all I will start with the number of Federal metal trades employees involved. Would it be correct that there are 22 electricians engaged?---I couldn't give the exact figure. That would be around about the number, but if you have got the information of Transport SA and they've said there is 22 that basically would be correct.

PN351

Would there be eight mechanical fitters?---Once again, I can't answer that. I haven't got the exact numbers on me, no.

PN352

Is it also the case that Transport SA, in addition to other activities, runs the Morgan Dockyards?---That's my understanding, yes.

PN353

And the function of that dockyard is to repair and refit ferries which are used up and down the Murray?---That's my understanding.

PN354

Is it correct that in that area there are two shipwrights and three trade
assistants?---Once again I haven't got the figures and the numbers there, but you'd have to rely on Transport SA for that information.

PN355

Now, in relation to Transport SA, is it correct that their workforce is broken into different components, the first section being the Electrical Assets section?---Yes, I think what you are talking about there is the whole structure, a much higher structure, yes, it is divided in different groups.

PN356

In turn that is broken up into a number of groups, one of which his the Traffic Signals Maintenance group?---That would be correct.

PN357

Is it correct that the traffic signal technical tradespeople are responsible for maintaining and repairing metropolitan traffic signals?---That's correct. My understanding is they do some country ones as well.

PN358

And also signalled intersections, pedestrian crossings, school crossings and the like?---That's their role.

**** ROBERT DONNELLY XXN MR MCRAE
PN359

In addition some specialised facilities such as the Southern Expressway, the Adelaide-Crafers Highway and the Hysen Tunnels?---That's correct.

PN360

Is it the case that these tradespeople address faults and callouts as
required?---That's certainly my understanding.

PN361

And is it correct that these people are electricians with additional electrical-come-electronics qualifications?---They certainly are.

PN362

And a good deal of that is going through on the job training?---I can't answer that because I am not 100 per cent sure on how they do their training. Some of that, I would suggest, would be on the job training but Kingsley Lewis and - Kingsley Noble, actually and Neville Jackson would be able to answer those questions. They're witnesses yet to come.

PN363

Is it correct that these groups are van based, that is to say, they use a van for their work rather than being stationed at a particular depot or - - - ?---Yes, the members we have got there use vans, they're based at Walkerville Depot but in main the majority of them start from home but they do use a van but they have got a depot which is Walkley Heights.

PN364

In addition to that group is there another group referred to as the Traffic Signal Installation and Road Lighting Group?---There is a road lighting group, that's correct. Whether it's called the exact terminology you gave, I can't answer that.

PN365

Well, we will turn to the work that they do. Is it correct that the Traffic Signals Installation Group are responsible for traffic signal installations, minor site upgrades and reinstating signals?---That basically would be correct. Once again I haven't got that information.

PN366

The road lighting group do not perform scheduled maintenance but they address road lighting faults?---Once again you'd need to ask Kingsley Noble and Neville Jackson that when they appear in the witness box.

**** ROBERT DONNELLY XXN MR MCRAE
PN367

Is it correct that all of these tradespeople are required to hold unrestricted electrical workers' licences together with additional qualifications?---That's certainly my understanding. If you want to be an electrician and work on the distribution system, which they do, you certainly need to have electrical workers' registration which is unrestricted, you certainly do.

PN368

Now, in relation to the use of private contractors, can I put it to you that a significant amount of the traffic signals installation is contracted out?---Once again you'd need to ask Kingsley or Neville Jackson because they're actually workers who work there so I think it would be appropriate to put those questions to them.

PN369

So you are not in a position really to talk of the use of private contractors or their interaction with the?---No. If you want to talk about exactly what is happening in Transport SA day to day you need to speak to the employees who work there, which will be in the witness box if Wilf Deakin calls them in, Ian Kingsley or Neville Jackson. I can certainly talk about the conditions the contractors work under, their rate of pay and what the Transport SA rate of pay is, and the difference, which is something like $7 an hour, I can talk about that if you wish.

PN370

Well, I understand the difference, but just to be quite sure then, your evidence is not addressed to the structure or the actual work of the employees in Transport SA, but rather to the industrial awards and agreements that might apply?---What I am saying to you, you are asking questions about the structure of Transport SA, I am saying the best people to ask are the people who work there, the day to day. They understand the structure. There has been a restructure which happened there last year, so they are the experts. But I can certainly answer any questions on the award or the working conditions of the government employees in Transport SA or Trans Adelaide if you wish, and I can speak about the terms and conditions that the contractors work under, and I can show you certainly very clear and show the Commission why a difference between the hourly rate, $16 compared to $26, $27 in the private area per hour.

**** ROBERT DONNELLY XXN MR MCRAE
PN371

All right. Well, I will turn to that issue then. Firstly I think I should deal with the issues of Trans Adelaide. Did I understand you to say that there was, in your opinion, a comparability between the work performed at Trans Adelaide and the work performed at Transport SA?---So the work in Trans Adelaide, the members we have got there work on the signals of the railway system, and in Transport - and lighting at the stations - and in Transport SA members there work on road lighting and traffic signals, so yes, there is something which is reasonably the same, one would suggest.

PN372

All right. Now, did I understand you to assert that Trans Adelaide was a department of the South Australian Government?---It certainly is. Now, they might say it is corporatised, or whatever it is, but it is run by the government and it has to answer to the government. At the present moment with the enterprise bargaining agreement it is going to the ICCC, where all government departments go through, so yes, it is a government department in my view.

PN373

Well, I need to put it to you, sir, that, in fact, Trans Adelaide is a state government corporation?---You may say it is a state government corporation. As far as I am concerned, sir, that is just wording. What I am saying to you very clearly, the people who pull the strings to what happens in Transport SA is the state government cabinet, and what happens in Trans Adelaide, for anything to happen there, cabinet has got full control at the present moment, sir. We are doing an enterprise bargain agreement with Trans Adelaide, and it is being held up because of the Full Bench workings which are happening now at the present moment, which we as a union have got a major problem with. So it might be a government corporation, or whatever the wording is, but the boss is still the state government.

PN374

Well, I want to put it to you that Trans Adelaide was in fact established as a body corporate under an Act of the South Australian Parliament known as the Passenger Transport Act 1994?---That may be the case but still - - -

PN375

Sorry, that may be the case you say?---Well, you are - if that's the technicalities, yes, but the question that I think that you are coming from is that I stated that it's a state government department. I still affirm that it is - comes under state government umbrella and for any things to happen in enterprise bargaining for example, any decisions to be made, they have to go to Cabinet, state government Cabinet, so I don't see the difference. It might just be wording as far as I am concerned.

**** ROBERT DONNELLY XXN MR MCRAE
PN376

That's your view but I want to further put it to yo that in 1999 under new legislation Trans Adelaide was established under the Public Corporations Act by the Parliament of South Australia?---It may be the case, yes.

PN377

And I want to further put it to you that Trans Adelaide continues as a public corporation operating the metropolitan train system and the single tram service to Glenelg?---Right.

PN378

And you speak of knowledge of the industrial awards. Are you aware of the history of the agreements that apply in the case of Trans Adelaide?---Most of that history was done prior to my time, but I have got an understanding, yes.

PN379

So you do or you don't?---No, I have got some understanding. I certainly do know what the award and enterprise bargaining agreements are and how they're structured, and as I have stated, sir, if I may say, I am a bit mystified at where you are going, but very, very clearly is that decisions to be made by Trans Adelaide enterprise bargaining agreement, we're negotiating that now. It has to go through the state government department and Cabinet acts on that and the ICCC is involved in that at the very present moment and it's being held up because of the state government parity agreement and they've been told not to negotiate with us and hence we're putting a bargaining period in because of that. So there definitely is a link, if you are trying to say there is not a link, I am a bit confused, because there is certainly a link, the state government controls Trans Adelaide.

PN380

Sorry, I have listened to what you said. Can I put it to you that in 1997 Commissioner Lewin of this Commission certified the Trans Adelaide Maintenance Certified Agreement 1997?---You have got the facts there, that must be the case. Certainly the name that you have given, the Trans Adelaide agreement, that certainly is the Trans Adelaide Maintenance Agreement, yes, that's what - - -

PN381

And that agreement was between Trans Adelaide as it then stood, the CEPU, the AMWU and the AWU?---That would be correct, yes.

PN382

And that agreement provided for certain wage increases of two per cent on
1 July 1997, three per cent on 1 April 1998, four per cent on 1 April 1999 and three per cent on 1 April 2000?---I haven't got a copy of that agreement with me, sir. I have got a copy of the current enterprise bargaining agreement, which has just expired, but if that's what was in there, that's what was in there.

**** ROBERT DONNELLY XXN MR MCRAE
PN383

Can I put it to you that the same certified agreement provided that payment of the additional pay increases was contingent upon certain productivity improvements that were targeted and measured?---My understanding is, that's what was in the agreement, yes.

PN384

Can I put it to you that that agreement also established a productivity review committee to oversee productivity measures and to assess and determine the percentage improvement for each additional wage increase?---Now, whether that occurred, sir, or not, I can't tell you.

PN385

Can I put it to you that on that committee there was a Trans Adelaide management representative, a union representative and a Member of this Commission?---Once again I can't answer that, sir.

PN386

Can I also put it to you that as an addendum to that agreement there was a memorandum of understanding regarding employee involvement in the business planning framework?---Once again, sir, as I said before, I have got some understanding but I wasn't involved with that enterprise agreement. I certainly was in the current enterprise agreement.

PN387

Can I put it to you that the purpose of that memorandum of understanding was to enable the monitoring and tracking of improvements?---Once again, sir, I can't answer that. Wasn't involved in it.

PN388

And can I put it to you that the addendum acknowledged that Trans Adelaide would be required to continually address its competitive position if it was to retain it's established share of the provision of public transport services?---My understanding is that was in the enterprise bargaining agreement, but certainly the government's changed these days and outsourcing is off the agenda.

PN389

Finally I want to suggest to you that the thrust of all of that was that Trans Adelaide reached agreement with its employees with the unions for wage outcomes based on extensive restructuring and productivity measures?---Once again for that '97 agreement, sir, I wasn't involved in it. I was involved in the current one. All I know, the facts are that Trans Adelaide is on 19.64 an hour and the state government is on $16 an hour, whatever the figure is.

**** ROBERT DONNELLY XXN MR MCRAE
PN390

I think that's as far as I can take that aspect. Well, then I think the only other matter that you dealt with was the issue of construction awards and
agreements?---Well, when you talk about construction, I am talking about in the contracting area which I would suggest, like, United KG and Nielsen's, you haven't got a separate construction and a separate maintenance agreement. It's one enterprise bargaining agreement, so I would say it's a contractors' agreement, not a construction agreement.

PN391

Can I put it to you that companies such as Nielsen's have enterprise bargains which are underpinned by the National Construction Award?---The National Contracting Award, that's correct.

PN392

Can I put it to you that the employees covered by those agreements are interchangeable between maintenance and construction?---As far as United KG is concerned, you are talking about United KG, is there is one enterprise bargaining agreement and those employees may do construction work or maintenance work.

PN393

I want to put it to you that they do interchange?---Depending on what projects - yes.

PN394

Did I understand you to refer as a separate category to the power awards and agreements?---Yes, I certainly look after the power industry in South Australia, look after the whole state.

PN395

Again, isn't it the case that in the case of the contractors you deal with, those enterprise agreements are underpinned by the National Electrical and Electronic Award?---No. For United KG and the Electels of this world that's the award, but under the power industry for ETSA Utilities, NRG, TXU, AGL, they come under the Power Industry Award of South Australia, the South Australian Power Industry Award, so there is a different award for them compared to the United KG and the Electels, et cetera.

PN396

Is there a correspondence between the South Australian Power Award and the national award?---Could you rephrase that question again?

PN397

Is there a correspondence between the South Australian Power Award and the National Electronic - - - ?---If you mean is there a link, no, there is not. They're completely separate awards, right. The actually - the Power Industry Award come from the Metals Award, many, many years ago.

**** ROBERT DONNELLY XXN MR MCRAE
PN398

Is it the case that the rates of pay are the same?---No, the rates of pay are different. In ETSA for example the base rate for a base tradesperson, 22.27 an hour, $22.27 an hour.

PN399

In the case of Nielsen's?---In Nielsen's, my understanding is, I haven't got the details here, but May this year they're going to be paid $25 per hour on a 36 hour week and - - -

PN400

And that's the case throughout the construction sector, isn't it?---What is the case?

PN401

That electricians employed in the - - - ?---No, sir, look, my understanding is in the construction, which you keep going to the construction area, I will call it the contracting area, that there is an industry agreement coming from May this year, and Mr Deakin would know more about that than this myself, there'll be a standard $25 an hour, 36 hour week, income protection, redundancy, a whole pile of decent conditions for trades skilled workers. And in the power industry, sir, they're $22 an hour and we're just revamping their enterprise bargaining agreement and they'll be up to 26, $27 an hour if we're successful.

PN402

So you are aiming for the same or better for the power industry as compared with the construction industry?---What we're aiming for the in the power industry is for the rates to go up from the ETSA Utilities, for example, the distributor, exactly the same as United KG which will be running at something like $27 an hour later this year.

PN403

If your Honour pleases, that was all that I have, but I am subject to instruction on this because, of course, I have not seen any anticipatory statement. I will just - - -

PN404

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, I understand that.

PN405

MR McRAE: I have no other questions to put, your Honour.

PN406

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Thank you. Mr Deakin?

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DEAKIN [11.49AM]

PN407

MR DEAKIN: Mr Donnelly, you referred to ETSA Utilities, is that still government owned?---No, it's owned by Seikio which is a Hong Kong consortium and so it's off-shore and they've got that for something like 200 years.

PN408

Is there any department left within the power industry that still belongs to government?---In the power industry, no, there is not.

PN409

The Trans Adelaide has been - well, I have just said about the Trans Adelaide and that not being a government department, does that still have the guarantee of tenure or is the conditions - - - ?---The state government, as far as Trans Adelaide, they've got the same tenure of employment, no forced redundancy. It's exactly the same, once again, as Transport SA, so I still say they're a government department. I don't care about the red tape that's on there, but the government, if they got rid of the no forced redundancies, that would apply to Trans Adelaide. At exactly the same time it would apply to Transport SA or the hospital system.

PN410

Does it still have the same circulars going out for redeployment?---The redeployment program or policy in Trans Adelaide is different than the rest of the state government.

**** ROBERT DONNELLY RXN MR DEAKIN
PN411

By what?---What happens in Trans Adelaide is that they're guaranteed of their income in the new job they're put in forever and a day, plus enterprise bargaining increases. It's a fair redeployment wage maintenance policy for employees that have been displaced.

PN412

Yes, but they can be redeployed within other government departments?---They can be redeployed in Trans Adelaide to start with. If there is no positions there they get transferred into other state government departments, they certainly do.

PN413

Thank you very much. Yes, your Honour.

PN414

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Thank you, Mr Donnelly, you are excused from the witness box?---Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.51AM]
<NEVILLE JACKSON, AFFIRMED [11.52AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DEAKIN

PN415

MR DEAKIN: Mr Jackson, how long have you been employed with
Transport SA?---I have been employed with them for approximately 23, 24 years.

PN416

Your type of work, could you explain what type of work you do?---Right, I am employed as a technician to maintain and fault find the transport system in South Australia which includes traffic signals, the Hysen Tunnels, Southern Expressway and all other associated equipment.

PN417

In that period of time do you have anything to do with contractors?---Yes, I have quite a lot to do with contractors. We're always bringing contractors in to assist us, whether for a specific piece of equipment or just to assist us because of the work load we have, which is always extremely high and we don't have the manpower to do it.

PN418

Do you have actual hands on assistance by these guys, do you?---Yes, yes.

PN419

So you are actually doing the same job together?---That's right.

PN420

If there is a breakdown and they're brought in to assist you actually working on a piece of equipment at the same time?---That's correct, yes. We, at times, yes, we're working on exactly the same piece of equipment.

PN421

Could you name the types of companies that you call upon to provide the service?---We - probably one of our major contractors would be Nielsen Electrical, Sage Automotive - Automation, rather, FFE, which is Fire Fighting Equipment, I think they're called, Traffic Control Systems, which is a company which does, as a contractor does similar type of traversing work to councils and also ourselves and they supply equipment, Hayden's, another company, also we're required to work with, like, Trans Adelaide technicians and has equipment which interacts with our own equipment.

**** NEVILLE JACKSON XN MR DEAKIN
PN422

Calling in contractors, would they be doing the same - and I want to try and identify the type of work of these contractors that are called in to do, such as Nielsen's. Would they do all the same work that you do?---One of the functions they'd do, like in the Hysen Tunnels, we'd do maintenance on the jet fans which are huge fans which are mounted on the roof of the tunnels and they will, of course, be required to be maintained every 12 months which incorporates getting inside the fans and checking fastenings and electrical components et cetera. Normally we have one of their chaps and one of our own working together to do maintenance on these fans, exactly the same work.

PN423

If you refuse to do the work, as what happened during the campaign, could they take over all the duties of - - - ?---No, that was proved, actually, it couldn't be done when the department had to employ someone from interstate to do the work and he couldn't do the - all the roles that we do because there was one particular site that he got called to and he wouldn't even touch it because he didn't know the equipment at all and the work that he did do on other faults, we normally had to go along afterwards and either make things safe or repair them correctly. So the work just wasn't being done.

PN424

So what you are saying is the contractors don't have the skills?---Definitely not, no. They may have a skill in a certain area, but they don't know how it interacts with the whole of the system. They may do work on a specific item, but we're required to make sure what they do doesn't cause problems with the rest of the system.

PN425

There is been a lot said about contracting electricians and new people, so electricians. The construction of the Southern Freeway which was considered a construction project, did you have anything to do with that?---Personally I didn't, no. That was other staff in my section that worked there, yes.

PN426

They did, but I am saying the department, it was the department electricians involved in that?---That's right, they were involved and since the installation of the Southern Expressway there is been the second stage come in and since then they've had to retrofit stage one to bring it up to the different standard, the higher standard which stage two is and most of that work has been done by our own department.

**** NEVILLE JACKSON XN MR DEAKIN
PN427

So the retrofit, as you just said, is to actually upgrade what had already been installed?---That's right, yes. That was - we also used one Nielsen's guy who had to assist us because of the work load.

PN428

So you had the contract, part of your team, to do that work as well?---That's right, yes, for quite a long time, yes, he's been working there.

PN429

Quite recently the government made a big issue, and it was in the press, that there was not enough workers to do that work and interstaters were coming in. The person that was called in to come from interstate which was from Downer Ralph M Lee, what was his capabilities, could he do the work?---He could do it to a certain standard, but there was nowhere near the standard of work that we do, even as I said once before, there was one site he wouldn't even touch because he didn't know the equipment at all, so he was - he wasn't as well trained or as conversant with the equipment as what our guys are.

PN430

Would you say that he wouldn't be as qualified as the Nielsen's guys are, though, are they both the same level type of qualification people?---I would say they'd be similarly qualified but on different type of equipment. Nielsen's don't really get involved with traversing the work as such. They get involved with peripheral type things, like, the Hysen Tunnels where you have got the fans, the jet fans and high voltage switching and specialised fields like that, they may be getting involved with, but the traversing, they don't get involved at all.

PN431

You have contractors in to do change in light fittings and things like that?---Yes, Traffic Control Systems, they employ electricians to upgrade - what they've done, the state government has spent six million dollars in the last couple of - two financial years, I think it is, upgrading the traversing of the system from normal incandescent globes to an LED system, which use a lot less power, a lot more efficient, you don't need to change globes, et cetera, and these guys are - all they do is come along, take the traffic light down, and put a new one up, that's all. If anything goes wrong, we get called and we go and fix up the problem.

PN432

A fairly low standard of work compared to you guys?---Yes, yes. Yes, a lot lower.

PN433

Would you say the installation or maintenance and upgrading is any different from the three ways than the standard with a normal contractor where you talk about installation work of installing the lights or cabling or duct work?---The standard of work, you are saying?

**** NEVILLE JACKSON XN MR DEAKIN
PN434

Yes?---Yes, it's a lot higher, it's totally different work, and yes, it's a lot higher. Technically it's a lot higher type of work doing different types of communications and different types of equipment. CCTV, camera work, 484 cabling, microwave.

PN435

That's the work - - - ?---Sorry?

PN436

That's the work that you guys do?---Yes, yes, microwave links, et cetera.

PN437

I will leave it at that, your Honour.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MCRAE [12.01PM]

PN438

MR McRAE: Mr Jackson, can you tell us what your classification level is?---It's M5, I think, pay rate, M5 which relates to the Metal Trades Award.

PN439

Can you just confirm whether it is the case that inside Transport SA there are 22 electricians?---That would be correct, yes.

PN440

Eight mechanical fitters?---I am not sure of the number of mechanical fitters. We don't get involved with them very much.

PN441

Are you aware of the situation at the Morgan Dockyard?---How do you mean, which situation?

PN442

In terms of employment?---No, I don't know the numbers there, no.

PN443

So I will exclude from my questioning anything to do with the
Morgan Dockyard?---Mm.

PN444

Just in relation to transport services and metal trades employees, is it correct to say that these persons are mainly involved with traffic signal maintenance and installation?---And also road lighting installation.

PN445

Yes, and is it correct to say that the transport assets include the metropolitan traffic signals network, road lighting network and intelligent transport
systems?---That's correct, yes.

PN446

Again, breaking that further up, is there an electrical assets section?---That's correct, we are a part of the electrical assets section.

PN447

Right, and in turn the composition of that electrical assets section is partly comprised of the traffic signals maintenance group?---That's correct.

PN448

You are employed in that group?---Yes.

PN449

I think in that group there are 10 Federal metal trades electricians or
technicians?---I think it's less than that actually. I think you will find it's eight.

**** NEVILLE JACKSON XXN MR MCRAE
PN450

Are these persons responsible for maintaining and repairing metropolitan traffic signals and signalled intersections?---Yes, yes - - -

PN451

And also pedestrian crossings and school crossings?---Yes.

PN452

And certain specialised tasks such as the Southern Expressway, Adelaide-Crafers Highway and Hysen Tunnel?---Yes, yes.

PN453

And are these persons electricians with additional electrical or electronics qualifications?---Yes.

PN454

Is it true that a good deal of that qualification has been obtained through on the job training?---A lot of it has, yes, there are some formal training from TAFE and other providers.

PN455

And I think it's correct that such persons must possess an unrestricted electrical workers' licence?---That's a minimum, yes.

PN456

And they must have completed a substantial number of relevant electronics modules of a Diploma of Engineering or similar?---Yes, yes.

PN457

And they are also required to have further experience in specialised traffic management systems?---Yes.

PN458

Each such person is, I think, van based, as it's called?---Yes, we work alone out of a van.

PN459

And apart from standard tools the vans contain specialised equipment such as a stock of spare parts and the like?---That's correct.

PN460

And I think currently that group works a compressed four day working week from 7 am to 5 pm?---Correct.

PN461

Now, the next group is, I think, referred to as the Traffic Signal Installation and Road Lighting Group?---Correct, yes.3

**** NEVILLE JACKSON XXN MR MCRAE
PN462

Is it correct that there are some 12 Federal meta tradespersons in that
group?---That would be fairly close, I'd say. I am not sure on exact numbers. I'd have to sit here and count them in my mind.

PN463

Broadly, broadly correct?---Broadly, I suppose, yes. I don't know whether there'd be that many, actually. I think there'd probably be about seven or eight all up.

PN464

Would it be broadly correct that there are six Federal metal tradesmen allocated to Traffic Signals Installation and follow up repair work?---No, there wouldn't be that many - yes, yes, definitely, yes, probably six.

PN465

And six persons allocated to road lighting, maintenance, faults and accident repair work?---Yes, you are probably right because I was just counting electricians but when you include the other trades, yes, that would be right.

PN466

And is it correct that the Traffic Signals Installation group is responsible for traffic signal installations minus site upgrades and reinstating signals after accidents?---That's correct.

PN467

Is it correct that the road lighting group on the other hand do not perform scheduled maintenance, their entire role being addressing road lighting
faults?---And some minor installation work as well.

PN468

So for instance the modifications, services and repairs to complex road lighting and traffic installations?---Yes.

PN469

And likewise attending to traffic accidents involving the road lighting of
poles?---Yes, I think the first call is done by ETSA and departmental people go out and repair the damage afterwards.

PN470

And is it correct that Transport SA supports any relevant training for its metal trades employees?---Generally, yes.

PN471

Now, coming on to the issue of contractors, is it correct that a significant amount of traffic signals installation work is contracted out?---Yes.

PN472

But as an example of the type of work that is contracted out, might I suggest the Port Adelaide Expressway?---That's correct, yes.

**** NEVILLE JACKSON XXN MR MCRAE
PN473

That's a completely new piece of roadway, major roadway, not being used by the public while under construction?---That's right. It was put out to tender by the government and part of the tender was the construction and maintenance of the expressway.

PN474

And I think it's correct that companies like Nielsen's and others are consistent bidders for such work and if successful they fulfil the terms of the contract. However, if it was the upgrading of a major intersection that work would not be contracted to tender?---That's right. That's normally done in-house.

PN475

Would be kept in-house?---Yes, and in-house normally does upgrades where sites are politically - a bit of a political hot potato or else it's a dangerous site, department will do the work on those sites and other stuff is put out to contractors. So more difficult sites are done by departmental employees.

PN476

Would it be correct that in the case of Nielsen's they only have one electrician who's capable of performing maintenance and call outs on signals on the Southern Expressway?---Yes, one person's been trained in it, yes.

PN477

And I think, did I hear you in your evidence refer to a company by the name of Downer?---Downer Engineering, yes, that's the company that - - -

PN478

I think Mr Deakin asked you something about that?---Yes.

PN479

And could I suggest to you that that company is a Victorian company who sent a technician over last year for a short period?---That's right.

PN480

And did that have something to do with bans and limitations imposed by the CEPU at that time?---I think it was totally as a result of it. Not - it wasn't something to do with it. Totally as a result of it, the bans that had been imposed.

PN481

Apart from that, is it the case that Transport SA uses the service of one other company employing an electrician with appropriate skills to undertake similar to work to your group?---Sorry, can you repeat that?

**** NEVILLE JACKSON XXN MR MCRAE
PN482

Sorry, yes. Apart from the - we referred to Nielsen's, Downer, I am saying put those two aside. Is there only one other example of a contractor in the area that you work employed on an irregular basis?---This is traffic control systems who are employed to - well, the department - they compete with the department for traffic signal installation work. They also supply the department with equipment as they're an agent of Aldridge Traffic Systems. They supply us with equipment. Manpower, they don't really normally supply us with manpower at all.

PN483

Could I suggest to you that interaction between traffic signal full time employees and private contractors, normally occur where there is some interface between specialised work carried out by the contractor and the employee
group?---Normally, yes.

PN484

Handover for example?---Handover, or specialised equipment which they have equipment to work on.

PN485

And employees are not involved in compliance or verification procedures relating to contractors?---No.

PN486

So in effect the employee group are involved in connecting the two systems or connecting the two sets of work?---Yes, yes, yes. Normally when there is a project being done, like with the Hysen Tunnels, the project's handed over to the department and we then go ahead and maintain it and fault find on the equipment.

PN487

Yes, thank you, your Honour.

PN488

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, Mr Jackson, thank you for your assistance. You are excused from the witness box?---Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.12PM]
<KINGSLEY NOBLE, SWORN [12.13PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DEAKIN

PN489

MR DEAKIN: Mr Noble, could you tell us where you work?---Yes, I work for Transport SA.

PN490

How long have you been working for Transport SA?---I have been working for Transport SA for about 30 years.

PN491

What is your position with Transport SA?---My position is I am team leader of the Traffic Signal Technicians who look after all the traffic signals in Adelaide metro, Southern Expressway and Hysen Tunnels.

PN492

Are you involved in bringing contractors in to the department?---Yes, I am.

PN493

Could you give us a breakdown of what you require of the companies to be able to do who come in to do the work?---I bring in several contractors into Transport SAs work that I am involved in. I bring probably about five major Adelaide companies in. They come in and work alongside my existing team of technicians. They assist in diagnosing what's wrong with mainly the part of the equipment that they specialise in. Together we work out what's wrong with the whole network, but they specialise in their little area which we have to give them feedback in problem solving, how to fix that equipment, like, inputs and outputs. They know their equipment well, but they don't have an overview of the whole network that we look after. So we normally have to feed them information on what they expect to see.

PN494

When you talk about their equipment, what do you mean by their equipment?
---For instance it might be a computer, a specialised computer, or a specialised PLC. It may have failed and they have to work out why it's failed, so we will come together and say you should have this voltage here, you should have these inputs, it's not working correctly and what we should expect to see out of that PLC running to other parts of the network might be a negative, positive or some other output, so we will actually tell them what we want to see and how it should work. We often show them the diagrams of the whole system because normally they're only specialising in that little component that's part of the bigger network, so we have to help.

PN495

So you are the person that actually creates this hybrid of private sector contractor and government worker setting up a team?---Yes, I am the contact to all of these companies but it might not be me that will work with them. It could be any of the people in the team.

**** KINGSLEY NOBLE XN MR DEAKIN
PN496

What is the names of the companies, what companies would you be thinking of bringing in to this type of work?---We bring Nielsen's in on the Hysen Tunnel and the Southern Expressway. We also bring in FFE into the Hysen Tunnel. We bring in Sage into the Hysen Tunnel. Traffic Control Systems, which does a lot of our traffic signal work and after hours work, we bring them in also.

PN497

How many companies do you bring in? When we had the dispute going and the government was saying that it was creating a dangerous situation, how many companies could you call upon to actually come in to do the work?---You could probably - I think the government wanted to call in a lot of companies to do the work, but it was whether they were capable of doing the work. The main company - was two main companies they bought in during the dispute and that was a company from interstate and Traffic Control Systems which they use on accident jobs, after hours, and Nielsen's, I think they had those teed up also to do any work that might arise.

PN498

So there is this interconnection that you have on a daily basis, weekly basis, yearly basis, what, with the - - - ?---Nowadays it might not be daily but it's certainly every other day. Sometimes it's daily. Depends on the faults. Depends what's wrong. We - I mean, I have just engaged Nielsen's to work alongside our people on the Southern Expressway doing construction. They're going to be modifying some of the existing equipment and they're going to be constructing equipment that will fit in with our existing equipment so that will go on for quite a few months.

PN499

Would you say that's minor construction or major construction or what?---I wouldn't call it minor. It's probably medium. It's specialised. I have asked for certain people from Nielsen's because you can't just take anyone from Nielsen's because, you know, you have got to know what you are doing and I don't want - I want people working alongside my people who are a good team and they'll get the job done quickly. I mean, we could do this work if we had the manpower, but the government is cutting back on most areas of manpower and I haven't got the resources to do this job in-house, so I have got external contractors to help us.

**** KINGSLEY NOBLE XN MR DEAKIN
PN500

So as far as, all you are using now is the contractors who, like, supplement your labour force to, not call on them because you can't do the work or you haven't got the skills, it's just to work with or assist?---Yes, I will answer that in two parts, I think. We do supplement our workforce a lot but there are areas that the contractors are more specialised than us for just certain components that we rely on them to help us diagnose the problem together, so it's probably a 50/50 split.

PN501

Just in finishing, without talking about your expertise with the qualifications that you guys have in that area, but would you see electrical work as no different as far as knowing and understanding fault finding as an electrician on construction as he would be on the maintenance?---When you construct something and build it up from spec, you don't really know what faults you might get regular or what things might break down, so a person that constructs, I think, wouldn't - isn't - they don't know where the weak points are, so you actually find that the people that maintain it end up having a higher technical input into maintaining it because we often have to redesign what they originally built.

PN502

I am just trying to phrase it, because there is a distinction being made here about the difference between construction and a person who was still an electrician, but he's working in maintenance. If I said to you on a construction site, go and install that distribution board?---Yes.

PN503

Would that be any different if I said to you, working on this building, go and install that distribution board? Would you believe the basics would be the
same?---The basics are the same. Our regulations, we have to follow the same. At the moment we're installing a huge project, quite a few million dollars on the Adelaide Crafers Highway which is from scratch installing variable message signs, changeable speed signs. That normally is done by a big company, but we have so many hassles with these big companies in not getting it right, that it's been kept in-house this time and we're doing it all ourselves, and that's been going on for quite - maybe a year now it's getting near completion.

PN504

But you would say as a tradesperson, as a standard tradesperson, a tradesman is a broad based skilled tradesperson?---Yes.

PN505

And if he can install on a construction site he can install on maintenance?---Yes, that's right.

**** KINGSLEY NOBLE XN MR DEAKIN
PN506

You don't see any difference there?---No. I didn't finish one of my answers to you, one of your original questions.

PN507

Sorry?---That's all right. Back a few steps ago you asked me about people we bought in during industrial dispute. I spoke about the ones locally. We bought a guy in from interstate, the government did, to maintain - to do after hours work. On one occasion, I remember he was unable to even - he wasn't prepared to even look at the equipment because he had no idea on how it would work and he - and the main reason he didn't touch it, because if he had have, there would have been bans put on it and it wouldn't have got fixed.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MCRAE [12.23PM]

PN508

MR McRAE: Now, Mr Noble, could you give us some idea as to your classification level?---Yes. I am an M3 pay rate under the Metal Trades. I have an Associate Diploma in Engineering Electrical. I also have a Diploma in Management.

PN509

Yes, and you spoke of your arrangements on behalf of Transport SA, I took it, with various private contractors. In what capacity did you have those
dealings?---If it's a plan job, then I suppose I do it as the team leader, the person in charge of the group as plan work. The other half of our work is in emergency response which could be me or any of my team. They will contact the contractor and bring the contractors in.

PN510

I guess we need to break it into two then. Insofar as you were acting as a team leader, were you reclassified upwards in recognition of the work you did?---I am not being paid as team leader at this stage. I am called a team leader but there is a dispute on at the moment. My team leader was taken off of me in a recent re-class three years ago and hasn't been resolved.

PN511

So is there - - - ?---So I am actually doing the job but not getting paid.

PN512

Sorry. Is there a reclassification dispute currently being dealt with?---Yes.

PN513

Does that involve you or do I understand involves someone else?---It involves me and the government at the time, I suppose, yes.

PN514

I see, so you are awaiting a decision?---Awaiting decision but I have still done my - I have done the roles of that duty but just haven't been paid.

PN515

Yes, I understand. So that was the first group where you, as I understood, you made the arrangements with the private contractors for the work that was to be done?---Yes.

PN516

Did you subsequently supervise those contractors?---Where it's a plan job, I would say probably half the time I would supervise and if there was something out of the ordinary, however, all my technicians are responsible tradespersons and they've got their - they, in some cases, know the job better than I do.

PN517

Have I understood that you fit into the traffic signal maintenance
group?---Maintenance, yes, Hysen Tunnel, Southern Expressway, yes.

**** KINGSLEY NOBLE XXN MR MCRAE
PN518

And in relation to traffic signal maintenance, is there a distinction inside the department between traffic signal maintenance as a general concept and some specialist locations such as the Hysen Tunnels or the Southern Expressway?
---Could you rephrase that, please?

PN519

Does the department in some way distinguish between traffic signal maintenance as a broad concept and activities such involved with the Hysen Tunnels or the Southern Expressway?---Not really. Some of the technicians in my group are now called Intelligent Transport System Technicians because originally we only used to look after traffic signals but because of the new technologies and lack of electricians in the government, we have ended up with everything. So our group gets jobs for all of these jobs that come through our control centre and can be given to any of our technicians. It could be traffic signals, could be Hysen Tunnel, could be Southern Expressway.

PN520

For the purpose of my next question can you exclude the Hysen Tunnels and the Southern Expressway?---Yes.

PN521

And having don't that I would like to suggest to you that those instances aside, there are only two contractors who have been used, the first being Nielsen's and the second being Downers?---I think you will find there was a third, Traffic Control Systems.

PN522

I am referring to all traffic signal maintenance, excluding the Hysen Tunnels and the Southern Expressway?---Yes, there is a third, Traffic Control Systems. They have a huge contract with traffic signals and they did do after hours work during the industrial dispute.

PN523

Sorry, I didn't catch the name you used?---Traffic Control Systems.

PN524

Who did you say they had the contract with?---They have a huge contract with the government, with our department at the moment, changing all the globes on traffic signals, cleaning them, putting the LED project - there is a LED project going out over Adelaide at the moment, changing all the lanterns to LEDs, they are also doing that, and they also did accident jobs after hours when the dispute was on.

PN525

Sorry, I didn't catch which contractor that was though?---Traffic Control Systems.

**** KINGSLEY NOBLE XXN MR MCRAE
PN526

Right, thank you. I have understood your evidence in relation to the interaction that you have had with these contractors, but in relation to other full time employees, could I suggest to you that the normal interaction would be limited to the handover phase, for example, on the Southern Expressway and the like?---I disagree with that. We had a contractor on the Southern Expressway who worked for maybe a year or a bit more who, from Nielsen's, who worked with two to three people in my group, virtually continuously, and we have just engaged them again to work with us again for another few months down on the Southern Expressway.

PN527

So was that person from Nielsen used as supplementary labour?---Yes.

PN528

And one person?---One person probably, yes, more than 90 per cent of the time.

PN529

Aside from that could I put to you that another person was used from Downer in Victoria during the period of the industrial dispute?---That's correct.

PN530

Traffic signal installation and road lighting are two separate groups, aren't
they?---They are two separate groups. However there is a lot of interaction between them. We're in the same building. We do work together when jobs are being made up, built up, ready for commissioning.

PN531

I want to put it to you that in both cases the only real degree of interaction between full time employees and private sector contractors would be at handover time?---Not necessarily. I am thinking of the contractors that are in place now by Traffic Control Systems, their LED project, we are - I have got one of my technicians who is working with them installing software, doing audit checks on them, when they finished their work. He's worked on that 80 per cent of the time for the last 12 months, while they've had this contract. If anything goes wrong when they're working on traffic signals or just before handover if something goes wrong, they ring us up and ask them to help them. I will send one of my technicians because you can't leave the equipment in an unsafe condition, it is 240 volts, it has to be all working.

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DEAKIN [12.31PM]

PN532

MR DEAKIN: Now, you made reference earlier on that sometimes the contractors, you bring contractors to work into your teams as a hybrid. What I just heard in the last few minutes, is there occasions - tell me if I am right or wrong - is where the contractors actually, you get one of your guys to go and work in a contractor's team as well? Sorry, the contractors are brought in to do the job and you just said you have had one of your guys in with their team?---Yes. I do that in the Hysen Tunnel quite a bit when they - Nielsen's - I ask Nielsen's to come in and do the jet fan maintenance, but when I train Nielsen's up, I bought a guy in from interstate and I also trained all of our guys, so when Nielsen's come in to work overnight I always have one of my guys assisting them, doing virtually the same work as them, it's identical work. They could both do it. Nielsen's were on strike at one stage and we actually couldn't get Nielsen's to come in and do the work. My guys did the work without them.

PN533

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Thank you, Mr Noble, thank you for your assistance and you are excused from the witness box?---Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.32PM]

PN534

MR DEAKIN: Your Honour, that's the conclusion of the witnesses.

PN535

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: I had a Mr Jeff Martin.

PN536

MR DEAKIN: Sorry, your Honour, he can't make it. He's away on leave, it was lack of notification that he had booked his annual leave to go interstate and he didn't realise until it was too late. I failed to notify that he wouldn't be appearing.

PN537

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: I see.

PN538

MR McRAE: Yes, we were told.

PN539

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Were you, good. Are you relying on his witness statement?

PN540

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour.

PN541

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Very well. I think we should mark those witness statements noting that they're not sworn.

EXHIBIT #ETU1 UNSWORN STATEMENT OF NEVILLE JACKSON
EXHIBIT #ETU2 UNSWORN STATEMENT OF IAN JAMES KING
EXHIBIT #ETU3 UNSWORN STATEMENT OF JEFF MARTIN
EXHIBIT #ETU4 UNSWORN STATEMENT OF GRAHAM MUNN

PN542

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: We will hear your submissions after lunch if that's appropriate?

PN543

MR McRAE: Yes, your Honour.

PN544

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: We will adjourn for lunch now?

PN545

MR McRAE: Your Honour, can I be heard just briefly?

PN546

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes.

PN547

MR McRAE: I rise because I didn't quite understand what Mr Deakin put in his opening submission, but I gathered he might have been suggesting that my client had agreed that there would be, as it were, an automatic flow-on in relation to wages and conditions of any determination by the Commission in relation to electricians to other employees under this agreement and I am instructed that that is not so. There is no such agreement and I wouldn't like there to be any misunderstanding on that point.

PN548

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: I think we need to clarify that point.

PN549

MR DEAKIN: Your Honour, if I may, in fact in clause 18.15 of the State Wage Parity Agreement - - -

PN550

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: That's the one that's just been certified recently?

PN551

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour. There is a position put that the condition, the allowances will be reviewed and what that meant was, is what the discussions that come out of - sorry. The outcomes of this dispute, if the allowances are included in an agreement with us and they are higher than the existing ones, then they would apply. That was a commitment given to us, and the commitment given to the building unions, and it's actually identified in 18.15 of the Wage Parity Agreement.

PN552

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So you say, when you say an agreement, you mean an arbitrated award?

PN553

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour.

PN554

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Anything arising out of these proceedings would flow to tradespeople covered by the State Wage Parity Agreement which was certified by the state.

PN555

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, that's the commitment given to the state plumbers and the state award covered AWU and the state award CFMEU.

PN556

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, that's to the extent that the allowances were higher?

PN557

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, and that's why my witness statements made a real point of that, your Honour.

PN558

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes.

PN559

MR DEAKIN: Although you, at the beginning, didn't think it had relevance but it is a real strong commitment given to them - given by them to us and the other unions.

PN560

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes.

PN561

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: What's happened to the bargaining periods of the AMWU and the AWU?

PN562

MR DEAKIN: They have been - no, they're still current, your Honour.

PN563

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: Are they still negotiating, do you know, or - - -

PN564

MR DEAKIN: No, your Honour, they're waiting for the outcome of this.

PN565

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So where do we see the scope of this award? The scope would be defined by your bargaining notice.

PN566

MR DEAKIN: The existing one covers all the unions you are referring to, your Honour. The scope of the award for - - -

PN567

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: The scope of the award you are asking us to make would be defined by the coverage of the CEPU by the bargaining notice.

PN568

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour.

PN569

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: And the other unions, as you said to his Honour - - -

PN570

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour.

PN571

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: - - - are awaiting the outcome of this, so that in a way their situation is in abeyance?

PN572

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour.

PN573

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: They've got bargaining periods in place, but nothing is transpiring, there is no negotiations occurring?

PN574

MR DEAKIN: Yes, there is three unions left. The Federal award, which is the AMWU, the CEPU and also the AWU again has two coverages. There is one area which is state covered, and they have one area that is Federal covered. The Federal area is that the negotiations have been put on hold because we see that whatever is obtained for the electricians within the government department will also affect the AMWU and the AWU.

PN575

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Right.

PN576

MR DEAKIN: That's the scope of the wage parity agreement that now exists. There is a number of - if I may back up a little bit. There is a number of - - -

PN577

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Sorry, but the state wage parity agreement covers the plumbers and the builders?

PN578

MR DEAKIN: Yes, and the state award.

PN579

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, yes, I understand.

PN580

MR DEAKIN: And then there is a state wage parity, Federal.

PN581

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes.

PN582

MR DEAKIN: Right. But we'd be seeking that - - -

PN583

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: There is been a state agreement recently certified, hasn't there?

PN584

MR DEAKIN: Yes, that's right.

PN585

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: I think I read that in the employer's submissions, yes.

PN586

MR DEAKIN: Yes. Yes, your Honour.

PN587

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: And that's the one you are talking about has this flow on clause for the allowances.

PN588

MR DEAKIN: Yes, 18.15, your Honour.

PN589

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, 18.15.

PN590

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: And who does that agreement cover?

PN591

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Builders and plumbers.

PN592

MR DEAKIN: That was the plumbers and there is one for the CFMEU and there is one for the AWU.

PN593

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: But it doesn't cover the AMWU?

PN594

MR DEAKIN: No, your Honour, because they come under Federal. Yes, it does. They also have a state coverage too in one of their areas, they have a state award coverage.

PN595

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: With an identical clause in it?

PN596

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, yes. That was given to separate - for the government to obtain what they wanted to do, they - - -

PN597

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: With the state employees.

PN598

MR DEAKIN: Yes, they set up this system, they set up this number of agreements to obtain the outcomes that they tried to obtain. What it then left was the CEPU electrical division and the AMWU and the AWU as covered under another agreement which will be the state - federal wage parity agreement. Now what comes out of this - - -

PN599

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Which was in existence.

PN600

MR DEAKIN: Pardon?

PN601

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: That was in existence prior - - -

PN602

MR DEAKIN: That was in existence prior - - -

PN603

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: That's expired and hence the bargaining campaign and where we are now?

PN604

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, that's exactly what it is.

PN605

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So instead of getting agreement on the making of a new Federal wage parity agreement for South Australian government employees, we're determining them in this arbitration for the CEPU with the AMWU and the AWUs campaign in abeyance and negotiations in abeyance awaiting the outcome of these proceedings.

PN606

MR DEAKIN: That's right, your Honour. And because there were the five unions in - that was the state unions in that one campaign, the government said, well, look, because you are going to have to go into this state wage parity agreement, whatever they obtain out of that agreement on the allowances, will then apply to you. We will put it into 18.15. I actually raised this issue in front of Commissioner Lesses on the date of certification of that one because I was opposing the application on certification of the document based upon the actual wording within the clause. It was a commitment to do something. It didn't say would do or - it's - you would get it on this date. It had no date of operation. It just said that whatever comes out of there we would review those allowances in the future or through the life of this agreement. In other words, I tried to get them a commitment on a date, if we achieve this today, then the same would apply there.

PN607

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: But whatever it is, that's really not of much concern to us, is it?

PN608

MR DEAKIN: That's right, your Honour.

PN609

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: No.

PN610

MR DEAKIN: That's why it really comes back down to the effort I tried to stress the relationship with those allowances and the make up because if we'd have gone down the original track of what we were doing, it would have been a straight out wage claim. It was just saying, we want $80 a week and then on top of this we want all these extra allowances. What happens to accommodate the state guys, we then, at the request of the government, we then changed it around to make up the rates that the AWU were requiring, or asking for, in the form of all purpose allowances which would accommodate the government and that's where we come to today, your Honour.

PN611

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: Mr Deakin, there is one minor issue I just wanted to ask you. In your notice of bargaining period, the term of your agreement was intended to be until 1 October 2006.

PN612

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour.

PN613

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: Did that change during the negotiations?

PN614

MR DEAKIN: Well, we have conceded with the government that if the wages and conditions can be agreed to, then we're not opposed to the extension of the end date. In other words, we can take it out from the date of - it's not a fixed date as far as we're concerned but we - - -

PN615

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: So that was canvassed during the negotiations and that issue canvassed the possibility of that being longer.

PN616

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, it was dependent upon a number of things and it was nothing that had been agreed to by the parties, because the situation that exists for us is, if we achieve today the wage increase that we're asking for, the government wanted to offer us a certain amount of money, that would apply for this one year only and then we're back to four per cent. Same with the others, which would create a major problem for us because, although we have overcome the problem for this year, next year we fall back into the same trap because the hourly rate between us and the private sector, the gap just widens again and it's - to us, Commissioner Matthew O'Callaghan stated quite correctly, this to us is a watershed. If we don't try and correct this right now, we're never going to correct it and that's the emphasis behind this claim we have in front of you today.

PN617

It's because of the processes over the years for government workers who deal only with government work, we are dealing with contractors, and for us this is now becoming a major, major argument of how the heck we overcome it, and there is only one way of doing it, is either seek major jump in wage increases. The government has said to us that they can't or they won't do that. We have said, well, there is a number of ways of doing it and if you are prepared to look at it, we're prepared to look at it. But it's one for us, your Honour, it's a major watershed.

PN618

MR McRAE: Your Honour, I suppose there are two major things. What made me rise was that I didn't want it later suggested that I had in some way acted unprofessionally by allowing Mr Deakin to close his case without raising the point, but without entering into any controversial field at all, there is no doubt whatsoever, and looking at the state wages parity, weekly paid enterprise agreement that there is no undertaking in relation to wages, no undertaking at all, no undertaking in relation to the matter before the Commission today, or in any other sense. So - - -

PN619

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: It's a little bit difficult. We haven't seen the wording of that clause, obviously.

PN620

MR McRAE: Well, now, I'd seek to tender the provision and your Honours will note that it relates entirely to allowances and to - - -

PN621

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: I think Mr Deakin has said that, its allowances.

PN622

MR McRAE: Yes, yes.

PN623

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: And that's how they've restructured their claim, to accommodate the plumbers and the builders in the event that they got more out of this MX arbitration. It was done deliberately to focus on allowances so that those other groups wouldn't miss out. That's my reading of what Mr Deakin put and stressed in his opening which is why I queried him as to relevance, and then he went on and explained that, because we're protecting those groups, that's what he said.

PN624

MR McRAE: That's still not my understanding of what this provision is and perhaps it might be - - -

PN625

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Well, perhaps you could tender that after lunch.

PN626

MR McRAE: Yes, thank you.

PN627

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: When you have multiple copies and then if you want to put further submissions then before Mr Deakin puts his opening, or, that may be appropriate.

PN628

MR McRAE: Yes, thank you, your Honour.

PN629

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Is 2 pm convenient for all the parties? We will adjourn.

<LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.46PM]
<RESUMED [2.04PM]

PN630

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, thank you, Mr Deakin.

PN631

MR DEAKIN: Thank you, your Honour. The submissions that we brought in front of you today, your Honour, have been selected - the reason behind our selection is because they do work within the government. We haven't presented any documentation to you to review or to view where the company is not participating in any government work. We don't see that of relevance to what we're trying to achieve here today. As I said in the opening statements this morning, is we see like as like for work done by the private sector working in the government areas so it would be inappropriate for us to serve any documentation concerning government contractors that hold no relevance.

PN632

If I could then take you to the first submissions, and I say this to your Honour, most of the stuff that we're putting up today is repetitious but it's done so to show the Full Bench, your Honours, that this is a standard of wage rates that can be expected in the contracting area. It may not reflect all companies out there paying these rates, but the base rates, the rates that are being paid out there, if they don't have an enterprise agreement with the Union, it's usually very close to the rates that have being identified.

PN633

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Mr Deakin, it's up to you to put your case, but if you say - you are telling us it's repetitious, wouldn't it be appropriate that it was summarised into a document?

PN634

MR DEAKIN: Okay, your Honour, I can - I will - - -

PN635

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: For everyone's benefit? That's up to you.

PN636

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, I could do that. It's just that I don't want to - - -

PN637

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Are you going to go to each of your claims in the log behind tab 20 because - - -

PN638

MR DEAKIN: I take your point.

PN639

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: No, no, that is a different point. The point is wages, to the extent you are looking at wage rates and repetitious, that may be able to be collated into a document. That would be of assistance to me. But on the log of claims each claim in an arbitration must be justified on the merits.

PN640

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, and I will come back to that and that's why I have left them - - -

PN641

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Are yo going to go back to the log
and - - -

PN642

MR DEAKIN: Yes, that's why I have left them right to the end, is that - we have identified on my list of submissions, I have put them in chronological order, and I have left those basically to the end.

PN643

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: That's fine, you do it in your own time.

PN644

MR DEAKIN: Just to get these out of the way to ensure that we don't skip over them and not take the importance of them. I have just tried to - - -

PN645

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: And are you going to provide a draft MX award for us?

PN646

MR DEAKIN: A draft award?

PN647

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes?

PN648

MR DEAKIN: No, I haven't, your Honour. Maybe that is - the reason that I didn't go down that track is because not fully understanding the outcomes of today and that - - -

PN649

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Well, I expect a draft. I mean, it's just a summary of what you are seeking in the award. I mean, it has to be justified against the criteria of MX.

PN650

MR DEAKIN: The only difference - it would be based upon the base clauses of the wage parity agreement, Federal, and these clauses that we would be seeking would be inserted into that.

PN651

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Are you going to take us to that agreement, the wage parity agreement to tell us which clauses you want enshrined into an award and what - we need to know the existing terms and conditions and what changes you are seeking and which clauses you want to be included in an award and then justify that on the merits and then we will adjudicate upon that or arbitrate upon that. As Deputy President McCarthy said to you this morning, this is the totality of your terms and conditions of y our members, so it's not good enough just to say well, we want something from this agreement and something from that. We have got to know - because we have got to assess and weigh up and balance the merits. The starting point is to know exactly what you are seeking and I am not clear about that, speaking for myself.

PN652

MR DEAKIN: Yes, I can - - -

PN653

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: All I know is that you have talked about a state agreement, the previous Federal wage parity agreement and a lot of claims under tab 20. Now, if there is a document that brings all that together as to what you want to keep, what you want to get rid of, what you want to increase, what you want to introduce, take me to it and I will be really assisted by that.

PN654

MR DEAKIN: In that case we haven't actually inserted into the wage parity agreement and we haven't presented - - -

PN655

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: But you said to me you wanted clauses from the wage parity - - -

PN656

MR DEAKIN: Yes, we haven't even created a format for the wage parity agreement simply because - - -

PN657

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: But didn't you say you want some of the wage parity agreement clauses to be included in the MX arbitration?

PN658

MR DEAKIN: Yes.

PN659

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: See, we have to know what you want. We don't know.

PN660

MR DEAKIN: Yes, okay.

PN661

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Well, I don't know.

PN662

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: All we know is you want some money.

PN663

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour.

PN664

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: We need to know a lot more than that.

PN665

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, we need to know a lot more than that.

PN666

MR DEAKIN: I think the feeling, from my point of view, the feeling is now that you have pointed us into that direction and maybe it's an oversight by us, but throughout the negotiations it was the government's document that they want - we were talking about what's going to be inserted and we haven't really - and the log of claims that we have got, we wanted inserted into that document, just - - -

PN667

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: For all I know there might be 90 per cent of the conditions or the other terms of the agreement that were agreed and you might - at least simplistically, but it would have to be explicitly saying we don't want them arbitrated, we can reach agreement on them. But that's not what you are saying. You are saying you want everything in an arbitrated award, but not telling us what you want. It's very hard for us to evaluate what you want without first telling us the package that you are seeking.

PN668

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour. I think the - - -

PN669

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Maybe it's something you can look at overnight.

PN670

MR DEAKIN: Yes. I think you will find that we have actually identified on our breakdown of the wages that we saw or comparison in enterprise agreements how we have put the, mainly the rates of pay, but we have also referred to the 36 hour week rate to go in there. We believe those, the wage rates and the 36 hour week.

PN671

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: These are those tables?

PN672

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, yes.

PN673

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Comparative tables, but they're not in the form of an award, are they? They're - - -

PN674

MR DEAKIN: No, your Honour, that's because of the position taken by government all through the negotiations. That's what they were asking for and that's what we have been working around, to have those inserted into the award because that identified the lack of a licence allowance, disability allowance, tool allowances, based upon those rates. That is the main thrust, that and a 36 hour week and other issues that could be discussed.

PN675

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So where are the wage rates that you are seeking?

PN676

MR DEAKIN: I think they're down on the - there were comparison base wage rates.

PN677

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: This is tab 18?

PN678

MR DEAKIN: 19, 18 - 18 and 19.

PN679

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes. See, I am looking at 19, you have got existing new wage parity agreement and wage parity agreement. That doesn't tell us what you are seeking, that's why I am confused. Is that what you are seeking to have in an award?

PN680

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, that's what we're seeking to have inserted.

PN681

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So that second half of 19, is that - and all purpose weekly and hourly rate, is that the wages you are seeking to have arbitrated?

PN682

MR DEAKIN: Yes.

PN683

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: The 804?

PN684

MR DEAKIN: Yes, well both of those, your Honour, actually, your Honour, there is one there, the top one is exclusive of electrical licence allowance should apply to the other trades and the bottom one would be applying to electricians simply on the grounds of their electrical licence.

PN685

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Okay, but it's a second half of the table is the claim?

PN686

MR DEAKIN: Yes, yes.

PN687

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: And that includes the wage rate and the allowances that you are seeking?

PN688

MR DEAKIN: Yes.

PN689

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: They're the allowances you are seeking to rely on?

PN690

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour. And if you look on the next page of that, there is outstanding issues which is 36 hour week which we'd be seeking and the on-call allowance. I mean, they're the main - and protection, they're the main points of our dispute.

PN691

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So on the next page, what do we look under, wage parity, do we?

PN692

MR DEAKIN: Yes.

PN693

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Well, you proceed, Mr Deakin.

PN694

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: Mr Deakin, are you seeking for the existing agreement to in effect be amended by insertion of these amounts and these provisions where they are currently contained in the existing agreement and if they're not contained in the existing agreement, anything in this log or these rates to be inserted as new items? Is that what you are - - -

PN695

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, that's - - -

PN696

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: Is that the way - - -

PN697

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour.

PN698

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: So it's the existing agreement with these conditions replacing the comparable amounts where they exist in the existing agreement, is that what you are - - -

PN699

MR DEAKIN: That's exactly right. Needs to be inserted into the existing agreement with the exception of two things that is not identified anywhere within the government departments, and that's the 36 hour week and the income protection. The on-call allowances already exist within government departments. It's just the monetary amount that we were - - -

PN700

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: So are you saying that the government draft award, you will accept, except for what the quantums are and the hours of work are in that document? Is that what you are - - -

PN701

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour.

PN702

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So they're the outstanding issues to be arbitrated? Everything else is agreed, is it?

PN703

MR DEAKIN: I don't think you understand the issues, yes, your Honour. Like I said to you before, the issue of the disability allowance which is infectious diseases and the psychiatric ward allowance.

PN704

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, I understand that.

PN705

MR DEAKIN: So, yes, those are the main points that we will be seeking today, that we seek - - -

PN706

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: So you are prepared to adopt the government's document except for the quantums?

PN707

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour. With those points inserted, yes.

PN708

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: And where it's not disputed by either your log or any of the documents you accept it, you agree?

PN709

MR DEAKIN: Yes, yes. Yes, your Honour.

PN710

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: And you are not pursuing super and you are not pursuing annual leave loading? You are not pursuing annual leave loading increase and you are not pursuing the superannuation?

PN711

MR DEAKIN: No, your Honour.

PN712

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So we can assume that the government documents agreed with the exception of the wages, the allowances, the 36 hour working week, the level of the on-call allowance and the inclusion of income protection, is that agreed, the income protection?

PN713

MR DEAKIN: No, your Honour, it's still an outstanding issue as far as we're concerned, but it's fair to say that the arguments that we have had with the government on a 36 hour week, is the government has opposed us on that saying that all workers in government are on a 38 hour week. Well, that's not true. Some of the administration staff for years have been on a thirty-seven and a half hour week. There was already a standard set where there is a different workforce having a different - - -

PN714

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: At the moment all we're trying to ascertain is not why you want something, but what you want.

PN715

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: What you want, yes.

PN716

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour. What you have just said is correct.

PN717

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So you will now proceed to tell us why you want it?

PN718

MR DEAKIN: Yes. I have just been reminded that there has been discussions about this memorandum of understanding which is a bone of contention between the parties. However, that's only on redeployment and it's nothing to do with the wage rates at all. But it's mainly the wage rates, the on-call allowance, 36 hour week and income protection to be inserted into the wage parity agreement.

PN719

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: When you talk about the wage parity agreement, I just want to be absolutely sure, by that you mean - - -

PN720

MR DEAKIN: The Federal one.

PN721

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, the Federal one but the government's draft?

PN722

MR DEAKIN: The government?

PN723

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: The government's draft?

PN724

MR DEAKIN: Yes.

PN725

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: That was used negotiations?

PN726

MR DEAKIN: Yes, yes, your Honour.

PN727

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: All right. Yes, okay, and where is that in the papers before us?

PN728

MR DEAKIN: Well, we haven't - - -

PN729

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: No, no, I think the government's tendered. It's in the government's papers, isn't it, Mr McRae?

PN730

MR McRAE: Sorry, is your Honour addressing me?

PN731

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, I am.

PN732

MR McRAE: Yes, sorry. Your Honour, the - - -

PN733

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: I just want to be absolutely sure what document is agreed, at least in part, because that's the basis for trying to understand the union's package of proposals.

PN734

MR McRAE: In relation to the draft MX award I can say this. I requested those instructing me to produce such document as quickly as possible. They're endeavouring to do it. The difficulty is that there is a number of agencies involved and they are all concerned in their respective ways with the detail of the document. So it's not here yet. However it will be available in the next few days. The basis of the document is quite clear. It is simply the framework is the current agreement and in the draft MX from the government point of view there are changes which incorporate the government proposals identified in our outline.

PN735

So there ought be within that draft MX a ready basis for the bench saying we agree with that, we don't agree with this, this rate ought to be different and so on. Hopefully that will be the case.

PN736

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So will identify areas of difference from the current agreement - - -

PN737

MR McRAE: That's been done in our outline of argument. We have specifically - - -

PN738

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: They're the issues that Mr Deakin has identified?

PN739

MR McRAE: Yes.

PN740

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Everything else is agreed?

PN741

MR McRAE: Yes.

PN742

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Because it's already in the existing agreement?

PN743

MR McRAE: Exactly, exactly, and so the draft is - - -

PN744

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So we take the wage parity agreement that's expired, the Federal, and amend that, each party is seeking to amend that to effect their respective positions?

PN745

MR McRAE: Yes, your Honour.

PN746

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: that being wages, allowances, on-call, 36 hour week and income protection?

PN747

MR McRAE: Yes.

PN748

MR DEAKIN: That's right.

PN749

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Can we proceed on that basis?

PN750

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, thank you.

PN751

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: All right. So you will now explain to us the merit of what you are seeking?

PN752

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour. Yes, the agreement that's presented in front of you, it really identifies just the wage rates that apply to these contractors and I would just take the Nielsen Electrical Engineering Service Division, which is number 1. If you look at page 41, at 44.

PN753

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes.

PN754

MR DEAKIN: You will see that the reason I picked this first Nielsen document is because there is a lot been made about this work that's been done, it's not contracting work, and the rates of pay that have been talked about, are mainly construction rates. This is Nielsen's Electric SA Pty Engineering Services Division and you will see that Level 1 is the base rate for the Base Trade Electrician, which will be as at 1 May this year $25 an hour, and on 1 May this year the 36 hour week will be brought into line. If you are looking at Level 3 you will see that as at 1 May this year a Special Class Electrician will be on $27.85 an hour. I will say to you, your Honour, that whilst the classifications in government are a lot higher than that, their lowest is round about the - the ones we have just had assessed, the lowest ones are round about Level 6, which is higher than most levels and so the wage parity - the wage disparity is quite large.

PN755

So the wage rates that you can see in there are considerable comparing to the wage parity agreement. I will just turn to income protection, on page 19, this is a form of protection that our members now enjoy in the private sector, is the private insurance cover, and it's a guaranteed wage rate for two years, if a person is hurt while at home it is simply guaranteed wage income for two years up to a maximum of $1000 a week. We believe this is a necessity now throughout life where a person starts taking mortgages and he was injured and he's not covered by Workers' Compensation, at least he's got a guaranteed income to maintain his life standards.

PN756

On the next page you will see that there is a severance scheme, which is the redundancy, and this is the one, your Honour, they get, as of 1 May this year, $50 a week put into their account. That adds up to around about 2500, 2600, and what we have agreed to, the unions, is because of this guarantee of tenure within government departments we believe that that redundancy in our log of claims, we will drop, simply because of the commitment by the government to that guarantee of tenure. So all of the documents are the same or very similar because the documents are not a patent agreement. They're a framework and they have the basics, hourly rates, superannuation, redundancy, income protection, fares and travel. Well, the fares and travel in this case, your Honour, once again does not really apply to government workers, simply because they're not required on a regular basis to appear at sites other than their own depot.

PN757

The next one I would like to take you to, and I'd like to make a jump on this one because, as I say, most of the documents are repetitious, but I'd like to take you to - - -

PN758

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Could you identify - it would help me if you at some stage could identify the documents that are identical or - - -

PN759

MR DEAKIN: Okay, there was - - -

PN760

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Because if you don't do it now, you could maybe provide a list tomorrow morning or later on and that would save you taking us to identical clauses and identical documents.

PN761

MR DEAKIN: Would you like me to name them, what are identical now?

PN762

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: If that's convenient, otherwise if you could hand up a list.

PN763

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, it's quite easy.

PN764

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Can we assume all other terms and conditions are the same?

PN765

MR DEAKIN: Yes. You have got Nielsen Electrical SA Engineering, there is only a slight difference on that, that's the redundancy payment, which is negligible. Then you have got the Nielsen's Electrical Contracting Division enterprise agreement which is the same. You have got the Downer Ralph M Lee South Australia agreement which is the same. You have got the Boffer & Russo Electrical Contracting division enterprise agreement, same. Tyco Asia Pacific, there is a slight difference on that with the 36 hour week. Sorry, they get paid out their money, they receive $950 instead of $900 on their day off. They get paid out their money. Amec Engineering, there is a slight variation, but based in and around all the same conditions. Watters Electrical is the same. Then we come to the power industry ones, Mr Donnelly - - -

PN766

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So what industry would you describe the group you have just taken us to, are they all - is the scope clause all the same?

PN767

MR DEAKIN: The ones I have just described, your Honour, are the - what we say is the patent agreement, framework agreement. We have allowed clause 34 there for every one of the agreements, clause 34 allows for agreement between the employee and the employer to a condition or something that the employer wants. But the wage rates, redundancy and other matters such as site allowances and that, they're all the same. We allow one clause, clause 34 - - -

PN768

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: But what industry do they apply to?

PN769

MR DEAKIN: Pardon?

PN770

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: What industry do they apply to? Do they apply to - - -

PN771

MR DEAKIN: Contracting, contracting.

PN772

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes.

PN773

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: But these agreements appear to apply to all employees regardless of the work that they're - whether they're on a project construction or otherwise of these companies.

PN774

MR DEAKIN: Yes, they do, your Honour.

PN775

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: Yes.

PN776

MR DEAKIN: There is only one that - I mean, Boffer's don't have - they call theirs a construction agreement, but they've got their service guys are paid to it. Nielsen's, they have three separate divisions within the company and they have a manufacturing, cabinet manufacturing, they have the engine and service division and the contracting. The contracting does everything else other than the actual service and maintenance work. But this one is actually a mirror of the contracting one with a slight variation on the supervisory allowance. There is some slight variation.

PN777

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: Although some of them appear to have conditions that get attached to the agreement, depending on what project or site they're on.

PN778

MR DEAKIN: Yes, yes. The ones I have just identified in the contracting area, there is some in the power industry which is a different area, but the ones I have just named there are basically round the same document. We do have documents that are pertaining to projects, that they have a clause within where the project applies.

PN779

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: None of these agreements were - they were all agreements, weren't they?

PN780

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, they're all certified agreements.

PN781

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: Have any of them arisen out of any form of arbitration at all? For example, consent arbitration?

PN782

MR DEAKIN: No, your Honour, no. They're all agreed to. We negotiated. The ones - I have just been reminded by Mr Wilder who is an organiser - is that some of the documents identify that it won't apply till certain projects have been finished with, and I think that's what you are just referring to like - - -

PN783

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: Well, I was looking at the Downer agreement, for example, where it says - if I can find it again now - it says, it's number three, I think, clause 3(2):

PN784

Providing that the wages and conditions of the project site agreement are not less than those contained in this award.

PN785

And prior to that the agreement doesn't apply to sites where there is a specific agreement for that site. So it's - - -

PN786

MR DEAKIN: That refers to projects such as the agreement where the unions have sat down with, say, like, One Steel, which was an outage project. It was the wage rates were higher than what was identified in the document. And so what we said is that where we have those project agreements and those conditions are higher than these, those will apply.

PN787

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: So it applies to all those employees of Downer except when they go on to a site, that it has a specific project or site agreement, yes.

PN788

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, and as I said, a number or one of the big ones that we honestly refer to was the Playford Power Station, the Kimberly-Clark project down south and the recent - - -

PN789

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: But the point is that there is no - except in those circumstances there is no differentiation of what type of work the employees under these agreements are on, whether it be construction or otherwise.

PN790

MR DEAKIN: That's right, that's right. That's right, there is no differentiation.

PN791

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: So one employee could be working on a construction site one day, or construction work one day, and not the next and the agreement applies.

PN792

MR DEAKIN: Yes, that's right. That's why we're saying it's not a construction work document. It's a contracting, electrical contracting, and electrical contracting - - -

PN793

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: Yes, but the agreements apply to construction work.

PN794

MR DEAKIN: That's right, it does, sir.

PN795

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: And what you are seeking to do is to, from what I understand you to be saying, saying, well, because these agreements apply to construction work and non construction work, we want the terms of those agreements, notwithstanding - you may argue otherwise - but notwithstanding the employees to be covered by the award you are seeking may not be performing construction work at all, or if they are, to a very minor degree.

PN796

MR DEAKIN: Yes. What I am saying to you, sir, is that the electricians and electrician, the only determination or the only way that's been identified by some of the employers is a construction agreement, it really isn't. You have got - it is wherever a person is working, those are the wage rates it is because there is no other work, there is no other rates for that company, is that the only one that we have done, that's separated, is actually Nielsen Electrical and they have a specific separate division which is identified as the Engineering and Service Division, and they do the high voltage work. They do the high service. So the other companies, like the contracting companies, those agreements will apply wherever they're working. It's not just on construction sites. That's the wage rates that they apply. Those the conditions that they enjoy.

PN797

We have only identified any difference where these agreements will not apply is where the unions and there is a project where the client themselves stipulated for anyone coming on that site, these are the wage rates and conditions that apply. Other than that, they apply everywhere, whether they work in government departments, whether they work elsewhere.

PN798

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: I don't know that the clients would stipulate what apply. They might request companies to tender on the basis that these are the expected rates and conditions. I don't know that they'd be a stipulation. In any event, I don't want to get into that argument.

PN799

MR DEAKIN: Yes. You are having the same arguments that we have had when we - - -

PN800

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: I am not having an argument. I am just trying to understand what your position is and what the basis of it is.

PN801

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Mr Deakin, you are relying fundamentally on outcome of bargains that decided, for whatever reasons, including market factors, you have made the submission that an electrician is an electrician. Is there any authority from the past that establishes that proposition on a work value basis within the Commission?

PN802

MR DEAKIN: The closest - - -

PN803

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Because that's what we're required to look at with merit. We're not required to merely look at outcomes of agreements.

PN804

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, I am not quite sure what there is. There is only the classification of a worker. It doesn't refer to electrician as a construction electrician. When you look at the award, the award stipulates that an A Class electrician has their licence, he has the work. It doesn't define him as electrician as being a construction electrician or a, in the old terminology of the old fitter, electrical fitter.

PN805

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes.

PN806

MR DEAKIN: If you go back to the award all you can see is Electrical Worker Grade 5 is 100 per cent paid rate, is Electrical Worker Grade 5 is an employee who has the skills required through the training specified below and as an employee who holds a trade certificate or tradesman's right certificate in an electrical trade. That's it. It doesn't define the difference of electrician. It's only on the service rates when you look into the rates of pay where the difference is, is there to say because you are a construction electrician you get disability allowance. It doesn't say you get it for any extra skills or you don't get as much as a maintenance electrician. It just says you are an Electrician Grade 5 and you will either be in workshop, service or installation, and installation is construction.

PN807

So when you look at electrician, the award is quite distinctive in its approach. It just says you are an electrician. There is no defining difference. So it's on that basis where we say, if you were - once you have done the trade, that takes you anywhere. It's only where you work that will define, by disability allowance, will define the difference, the hours that you are working. Most of the skills that are obtained by maintenance electricians, is usually because they've done extra post training skills at TAFE colleges or on the job work, on the job experience. That's the only difference between the two.

PN808

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, thank you.

PN809

COMMISSIONER THATCHER: Mr Deakin, are you going to address us on the differences, if any, of impact of tenure of employment, because as I understand it from what you have said so far, the people that are covered by the MX application, there is a no enforced redundancies applies. I assume, unless you tell me otherwise, that the contractors the subject of these certified agreements, wouldn't enjoy such tenured arrangements.

PN810

MR DEAKIN: That's why - - -

PN811

COMMISSIONER THATCHER: Are you going to submitting to us that, notwithstanding that, we should just say, well, like for like across the board, or are you going to be submitting to us that there should be a discounting factor - - -

PN812

MR DEAKIN: Well, your Honour, the discounting factor as far as we're concerned conceded with the government. It's a position we conceded to the government. It's a position we conceded with the government when we raised the issue of redundancy. They - - -

PN813

COMMISSIONER THATCHER: But you have no enforced redundancies?

PN814

MR DEAKIN: No enforced redundancies.

PN815

COMMISSIONER THATCHER: You have no enforced redundancies.

PN816

MR DEAKIN: That's right.

PN817

COMMISSIONER THATCHER: And the person in the private sector has a enforced redundancy.

PN818

MR DEAKIN: That's right.

PN819

COMMISSIONER THATCHER: And if they have enforced redundancy, they might get a certain payment.

PN820

MR DEAKIN: That's right.

PN821

COMMISSIONER THATCHER: But they don't have tenure of employment, do they?

PN822

MR DEAKIN: No, but the portability of their redundancy fund. It means that they go from one firm to another, that money keeps getting put into that account all the time, so some of those people have got 30 or $40,000 in those accounts.

PN823

COMMISSIONER THATCHER: So you are saying it's equal? No enforced redundancy equals redundancy?

PN824

MR DEAKIN: Yes, we conceded that point. We believe there was no point in arguing that because I don't believe our workers would want to go down the track of going for redundancy money. They see that - - -

PN825

COMMISSIONER THATCHER: I can understand why they wouldn't want to go down that track, but I am saying don't they have an advantage, that they have tenure? They don't have a no enforced redundancy, so therefore isn't there an argument that therefore shouldn't there be a discounting factor? When we just look at the flat rates that apply under certified agreements?

PN826

MR DEAKIN: Well, taking your point that you are making, your Honour, we have been open minded on that part, I have got to say we have been very open minded on that part. It's just that we have a standard in our electrical contracting area where we believe is the norm and it should be and at the end of this year these rates where you have in these documents - these documents terminated on 31 December this year. What we have tried to do is catch that up. We believe that - we would like to get the same, but however, if it comes down to a decision of some sort of discounting because of certain things, right - - -

PN827

COMMISSIONER THATCHER: I just want to hear what your submission is some time in respect of that matter of which I am just giving you notice.

PN828

MR DEAKIN: That's right.

PN829

MR DONNELLY: If the Commission pleases, could I comment on that? If I can perhaps approach the Full Bench?

PN830

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes.

PN831

COMMISSIONER THATCHER: I didn't really want to debate it now, I just wanted to give notice.

PN832

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Or at the time when you are coming to it.

PN833

COMMISSIONER THATCHER: When you come to it.

PN834

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: I think the Commissioner has just flagged that he, you know, expects to have that addressed, but maybe not now, maybe at an appropriate time when this is naturally going to come up in the course of submissions. If you'd like to answer it now?

PN835

MR DONNELLY: Okay, the question being of the tender for employment government no forced redundancy, that's only from time to time. It doesn't go on forever and ever. The present state government has got a policy of no forced redundancies. If the government changes, there is no guarantee there'd be no forced redundancies. In the contracting area there is a redundancy scheme and the money follows the employees. In the power industry there is legislation that gives those people who work in TXU, NRG, AGL, Electranet and the 1300 people that work for X Utilities, are guaranteed in legislation no forced redundancies. That's what I call a no forced redundancy policy. Redundancy is that there is no forced redundancy. If the company hasn't got a job for them, they then get a job in the state government and they then have no forced redundancies forever until they wish to leave and retire or whatever they wish to do, which is better than what state government people have got, because the people in the power industry have got a much better no forced redundancy in relation to what the state government has ever given their employees. So that might answer your question.

PN836

COMMISSIONER THATCHER: Leave it at that for the moment.

PN837

MR DEAKIN: The wage parity agreement, I have just been reminded, that it's only for the life of the agreement, no forced redundancy for the life of the agreement.

PN838

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Well, I don't think we're looking beyond life instruments. We're not going to speculate beyond that.

PN839

MR DEAKIN: So should I move on now? So the documents have basically got all the same conditions. If you look at - and I will group them in a format if I can - I will just read out rather than go through every document. I will go through them again. There is both the Nielsen documents, there is the Downer Ralph M Lee South Australia one, then there is the Boffer & Russo, Tyco Asia Pacific, Amec Engineering, Watters Electrical are basically the same with some slight variations at clause 34.

PN840

The other ones, Skill Power, ETSE Utilities, Utilities Management, Electel, Tenix Alliance, United KG, Northern Light, ABB Australia Power, they are the power industry agreements which reflect the electrical contracting industry agreements. They spelled our agreements out in a format that has made a couple of allowances in different things, so they have done it to incorporate disabilities, but the wage rates are pretty close to each other at the end of the day. One thing I would like to bring your attention to is the Downer Victoria agreement, and the reason why I have entered that one is because the company Downer was called upon by the state government to bring a person across from Victoria to work on the Transport SA when we had the disputes, and they were bringing in Victorians. And the wage rates that they were paying for the person to come across from Victoria, the wage rates that he enjoyed - I have to find out

PN841

I think appendix C is the one that applies, page 68, from 1 October 2004, a person, electrician, at base trade was on $26.04 an hour and that's at trade level, to come in and do the electrical work of the guys at Transport SA. That's the anomalies that we continually work against, no matter where we seem to bring in contractors. The wages rates identified are astronomical compared to the wage rates of their own employees. As you can see, and this is the one person that we brought in to do the work who couldn't do the whole job, he could only do part of the job, and yet we have our tradespeople in this classification looking at this one from Downer Ralph M Lee, Mr Neville Jackson, who is classified at Level 3 under the state award, will be classified at Level 10.

PN842

He would, under this award, be receiving $34.15 or 16 cents per hour. At the moment he's on $16.64 base level. With his classification it takes him into the regions of $21 an hour. So the anomalies that we start to see is where the government has no qualms in paying these rates to bringing contractors into doing the work, and yet are not prepared as like is like, for doing the same job.

PN843

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: When you are talking about like is like, I have got something I need to have clarified because I don't fully understand and if my understanding, or partial understanding is correct, it's something I must raise with you. You are relying on wage rates in agreements. You claim as set out, for example, for wages, are set out behind tab 19 has a base hourly rate and then a number of allowances, in particular an all purpose disability allowance, an all purpose tool allowance, an all purpose occupational licence allowance.

PN844

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour.

PN845

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: And each of those three allowances, the claim for each of those allowances are for increases, substantial increases.

PN846

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour.

PN847

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: That together with the base hourly rate makes up an all purpose weekly and hourly rate.

PN848

MR DEAKIN: Yes.

PN849

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Now, you have structured that, you tell me, to meet the commitment that you say is given to the plumbers in that - - -

PN850

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour.

PN851

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: You are relying on comparative wage justice and agreement, but my reading of the agreement - and tell me if I am wrong - they don't have these allowances?

PN852

MR DEAKIN: No, they don't have the allowances.

PN853

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Okay. So you are seeking increases and allowances and in doing so I ask you this, Mr Deakin, and I ask you - if you don't want to answer it now, to answer it at an appropriate time - we have wage fixing principles of this Commission that allow for the adjustment of allowances. Where you are seeking to have an existing allowance increased because of changes in work or conditions that must be in accordance with the work value change, I am just not sure on where your rationale to increase the allowances is in an arbitrated award. I don't know where the merit is coming from. You are relying on a total that you are getting from agreements.

PN854

MR DEAKIN: Yes.

PN855

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: But for an allowance to be altered in an arbitration requires substantive analysis and evaluation of the work to justify whether that allowance should change or not change and to the extent to which it should change to demonstrate, where has the disability changes, where has the - why should there be a higher tool allowance, in what way has the occupational licence allowance changed? What is the merit? If it's not found in the agreements which are based on comparative wage adjustments, where is the merit for these allowances? It's not sufficient to say because we want it. It's not sufficient to say it's going to meet an objective to look after another group. They're not criteria we look at in another - we're not in a negotiation.

PN856

We're in an arbitration and we have very, very, very defined traditional ways in which we evaluate work, whether it be for a base rate or allowance. Now, if you say we should depart from that in an arbitration, I want to hear a detailed submission in respect of that, to the extent that we don't - I need to know the basis on which these allowance increase are being sought, otherwise these allowances could go anywhere.

PN857

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour. Look, what you are suggesting is correct, in that there should be a properly analysis done on the percentage rates of when they first were introduced to the wage at that point in time to where they sit now.

PN858

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, that's right.

PN859

MR DEAKIN: That wasn't done. This was only done at the request of government. What we were really concerned - - -

PN860

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: But it's your case, Mr Deakin.

PN861

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour.

PN862

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Okay, and you have got to substantiate your case, that's why you are here.

PN863

MR DEAKIN: Yes.

PN864

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: One of the matters we have to have regard to, MX, was the merit of the case and having merit we surely look at the traditions by which we fix wage rates, we can fix allowances by how we fix hours of work. I am just asking you, you might be going to come to it, but from what you have said thus far, it seems to me that you have got your total amount, you have got that by virtue of the other agreements that you say is like to like, and then you have restructured it into a way that divides it into a base rate and a number of allowances.

PN865

MR DEAKIN: Yes, and that was - I will go back, that was a mistake by us, by trying to satisfy the government's position in this manner and this was actually even discussed through - in front of SDP O'Callaghan.

PN866

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So what happens in conciliation is of no interest to us unless you are asking us to rely on the outcome of the conciliation that's agreed, because that's different. That's a negotiation. That's conciliation. That's very, very different and how you argue in a negotiation, how you argue in a conciliation is not the same as how you argue, not necessarily the same, as how you argue in an arbitration before a Full Bench. We have got an Act. Our Act says -the President has said there'll be a bench to determine this matter under MX. That's the confines by which we look at the merits of a claim. Those conditions set down by the Act.

PN867

In looking at merit we necessarily, for example, for an allowance, look at how we traditionally justify or parties traditionally justify an increase, for example, in a disability allowance. It's not sufficient for me, for any party to come along and say, I want to increase disability allowance because I want to increase it, because it contributes to making up the total that I want. That is not an argument based on merit that I would give any weight to. I just want to be absolutely clear now so that there is no misunderstanding later on. It's totally open to you, totally open to the government to convince us that these allowances should be shifted on merit, but it's not sufficient on the basis of saying they make up a total that we want because they're in somebody else's agreement that was negotiated. It's an arbitration.

PN868

MR DEAKIN: Could I just come back to that point?

PN869

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, certainly. I am just trying to share with you my concerns about where you are coming from.

PN870

MR DEAKIN: Yes, yes.

PN871

COMMISSIONER THATCHER: And they're concerns that I have quite strongly as well. We know nothing about how these other agreements were arrived at, the reasons behind why people agreed to it, whether rates were inserted to attract labour, or retain labour or because of the profitability of those employers or anything. Those are circumstances we have no knowledge of and therefore a large question mark as to how much, if any, regard we should have to agreements that other people have made, quite willingly. But this Commission hasn't been involved - except for certification of them.

PN872

MR DEAKIN: Yes. I can assume you, sir, we didn't impose anything on to the employers. We set a negotiating team to attain those enterprise agreements - - -

PN873

COMMISSIONER THATCHER: And it might be quite - and quite often it is quite appropriate in negotiations to say, well, Downers have got it or United KG have got it in a negotiation, but not in a proceeding of this nature can that similar sort of weight be given to those sort of considerations because that's something the parties, in negotiations, they can have regard to whatever they want to have regard to and for whatever reason they want to agree to anything. That's up to them.

PN874

MR DEAKIN: In reality, I mean, at the end of the day, those allowances we saw would have been absorbed, as we're doing now, by the agreements, is to form up the hourly rate. That's the make-up. The make-up is there to achieve an outcome for other people. Following on from the initial log of claims that was put through the - if I go back to 18 you will see that the first comparison base wage rate that we put in front of the employers identified - the first column was the wage parity agreement, the existing one. The SE Utilities one, the other government department, Trans Adelaide one, and then identified how we did the Nielsen Service, Nielsen Electrical Contracting and offers, and we identified that the disability allowance, tool allowance and transport allowance, they're all absorbed into those rates and that was the intention. It was at the request of the government that we changed it.

PN875

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So, sorry, that last wage parity column, is that the total differential, taking into account the allowances as part of a normal hourly rate?

PN876

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, yes. That's how we identified the differences that we're now facing between the wage parity agreement, is $5.76 on the rates that exist now with the employers and that will go in 2004 up to $7.71. The SE Utilities was only 97 cents varying and there was a disparity of $2.92 and then with the Trans Adelaide ones, $3.80 and that went up to 5.70. That's what we tried to identify why there was a need for this wage increase. That was our original one and at the request of the government they - maybe we have been suckered in to a pit that we can't get ourselves out of, but it was at the request of the government that we moved the allowances and that's what we did.

PN877

So that was our first one, number 18 was our first proposal and I was reminded at one of the discussions that if you are going to ask for like as like, then the allowances that we have identified have got to be absorbed like it did into the Nielsen's and Electrical Services Division. We agreed. No problem. We will do that. But then the other side issues came up from government about moving the allowances and those allowances could then possibly apply then to the other government workers. Our initial move - - -

PN878

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Doesn't that confirm my view that the allowances, if they weren't properly evaluated, could flow anywhere?

PN879

MR DEAKIN: No, they didn't. There was no suggestion of that until today, your Honour, and maybe that was an oversight by us, but there was never any suggestion of that, that that would be the case. The only discussions we had on the matter is that we were asking too much. There was never any suggestion that they would be limited by the ability of the courts.

PN880

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: No, but I am putting to you, you must substantiate on merit the increase in the allowances, and I think you understand that argument, in an arbitration. Can I ask this? On what basis should we move the all purpose disability allowance from $9.10 to $26 a week?

PN881

MR DEAKIN: On the basis, I believe that any of those allowances become redundant as far as if you took the initial wages when it was first introduced compared to weekly wage that they were on and a percentage difference, that would have been blown out right now. With the value of those allowances don't carry any reflection of the true weekly wage now. I think when those allowances first came in, I think electricians were on about $70 a week, probably a bit more than that and then in those days it would probably have been about 6, 5 or $6, without that - - -

PN882

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So are you saying they haven't been adjusted with the safety net review increases?

PN883

MR DEAKIN: That's right, they haven't kept pace with the wage increases that we have today. I don't believe - - -

PN884

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: I think we need a rationale, we need the merit, and I am asking you what it is, and I am not asking you to do it on the run, but I am explaining to you that in an arbitration, to increase an allowance requires a rationale or a reason for it. It's not sufficient to say that because that's the way we have structured our wage rates to get a total that's in somebody else's award.

PN885

MR DEAKIN: Well, we believe all those occupational licences, the tool allowance, would pay for tools that are lost. I mean, if you had to go out and buy another - - -

PN886

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Mr Deakin, I don't want you to answer now because it requires a substantive argument to justify these sorts of increases, so I don't want you to do it off the top of your head. A one sentence answer is not going to meet the criteria of the Act. We need chapter and verse, we need dollars and cents. We need to be told why $26 or $30 is appropriate and why $13.60, 11.25 or 19 isn't appropriate. I am not trying to be destructive. I am trying to help you - - -

PN887

MR DEAKIN: I know you are, your Honour, I appreciate that.

PN888

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: - - - in trying to explain to you now rather than later what case you have to meet.

PN889

MR DEAKIN: We will have to come back to you on that, your Honour.

PN890

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Okay, that would be appropriate.

PN891

COMMISSIONER THATCHER: Mr Deakin, on something quite different. Something that has been exercising my mind is, and whilst we can't and shouldn't go in to the content of the conciliation and positions parties took, because that's a matter for the conciliation, I think it's reasonable for me to ask this question. That is, in the conciliations was it ever considered whether in view of the lack of the likelihood of you having a meeting of the minds, that there be a consent arbitration? Was that something that was deliberated on by you or any others? Because you have come here today and you say we want an award, we want it arbitrated, and what I am really asking you is, you have got here, and there has to be an arbitration basically, was there consideration by you or the government, and I will ask the government the question later when it's their turn, of a consent arbitration as a means of resolution of your differences?

PN892

MR DEAKIN: Your Honour, I don't think we got to that point as far as it concerns - there was questions surrounding that but - - -

PN893

COMMISSIONER THATCHER: You see, Mr Deakin, in a consent arbitration the sort of issues that you are raising of comparability are much more open to be raised, there is much more license, if you like, for the things that the arbitrator can consider and take into account. But that wasn't - you have answered my question anyway.

PN894

MR DEAKIN: There was certain discretions surrounding - prior to - that there was not a consent but still open to discussions, there was no consent that they were prepared to sit down and - all I can say on that one, sir, is that we will still talk about sitting down and discussing matters, but - - -

PN895

COMMISSIONER THATCHER: Yes, you have answered my question. I don't want to go into the detail of a conciliation, thank you.

PN896

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Would it be appropriate if we had a five minute break? Would that suit us all?

PN897

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour.

PN898

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Thank you very much.

<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [3.04PM]
<RESUMED [3.13PM]

PN899

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Thank you, Mr Deakin.

PN900

MR DEAKIN: Your Honour, following discussions with the other officials we do not intend to pursue the allowance increases. However we do intend to pursue the hourly rates that we have identified in our documentation. We don't believe that it's obtainable by us to put an argument in front of you today on those allowances, so the allowances increase that's been suggested we would not be pursuing. However, the wage rates that we have identified which would be the $21.75 an hour and a $23.29, those are the main points that we would be pursuing as an hourly rate.

PN901

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Can I just say too that I have got personally no difficulty with you amending your claim, but I stress to you, you are entitled top put an argument in support of those allowances.

PN902

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, but to give that argument some real ability to be achieved would require some analysis work to be done to be presented in front of the bench and I don't think we, at this point in time, have that ability to do so. The allowances - - -

PN903

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Well, that's a matter for you because if you did say to us you wanted time to develop, well, we'd consider that because this is - - -

PN904

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, it's a struggle that we just have to come to grips with. The hourly rate is of importance to us.

PN905

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So the hourly rate you are seeking now is $21 - is that right, where we're looking at number 19?

PN906

MR DEAKIN: Yes, that's the compromised position that we put to government.

PN907

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: 21.75 per hour and 23.295 and then the 20.4 and the 22.37?

PN908

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, those are the rates, yes.

PN909

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Is that right? So you are seeking an all purpose weekly or hourly rate - we call it hourly - of those amounts, full stop?

PN910

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour.

PN911

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, thank you.

PN912

MR DEAKIN: If you can see the rationale behind that, as we raised before, is on item 18, is the difference in the hourly rates in the wage parity and other agreements to that of the Nielsen Electrical and Boffer & Russo. As you can see right now it's $5.76, ma'am. If we adopted the position taken by the government, who is going to blow out by considerably to an amount that we would never, ever overcome. So to us this claim is very important. Having said that the documentations, as I said before, other documents that are relevant is the Victorian document and when you consider that the government in their argument concerning the other government departments in other states have used theirs as a comparison over here. We're saying that doesn't become relevant because other government departments in other states don't work alongside our guys in this state.

PN913

However the Downer Ralph M Lee is based upon the electrical contracting industry document, this is why we're using the Victorian document - is based upon the Victorian document and the health departments in Victoria of an outsource. So these are the rates that we have actually been charging the other government departments. And not only are they the ones where, when a Victorian comes across here, those are the rates that he'd be achieving by working alongside our people. So you can see that there is a major disparity between the wage rates and it is quite clearly - our employees, or members, I should say, are quite clearly disadvantaged by the wage rates.

PN914

The log of claims we referred to before I will just quickly go through those. It is - the outstanding one was the wage rate. In discussion on those wage rates there was a number of formulas that was actually talked about on obtaining the outcomes that we wanted. There was the 36 hour week, the classifications on the fourth - - -

PN915

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Are you putting any argument on the merit of the 36 hour week apart from their being in other agreements?

PN916

MR DEAKIN: It's something that we have got to look at in the future. We're not saying that it's got to be - we're asking for it to be implemented within six months or a year. We're saying we can achieve it within the life of this agreement. We would accept that sort of thing, but there is a need for us to bring in the 36 hour week because we believe that as of 2006 I think there won't be many companies out there that will not have the 36 hour week associated with it. So - - -

PN917

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Do you expect the Commission in an arbitration to adopt a 36 hour week on that basis on the basis of what you have put?

PN918

MR DEAKIN: We're hoping.

PN919

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Well, I was around when the 38 hour week was introduced and there was a lot of pain, a lot of angst and an awful lot of work done throughout the union movements, throughout employer ranks and within the Commission. It was not an easy - - -

PN920

MR DEAKIN: Yes, I am aware of those, yes, yes.

PN921

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, I am aware of it too. There was conditions attached, there were offsets, there was productivity benefits, there was - - -

PN922

MR DEAKIN: There is another formula to that we have actually talked about and it's quite an interesting one. And that is if you look at the Nielsen's document and these documents down here, your Honour, you will find that the employer asked for-not the unions - asked for a four nine hour day work, which we agreed to, which would accommodate, you know, the guys having a 36 hour week, but they had the four nine hour day. We have actually said to the government that we're prepared to look at actually a nine day fortnight where the guys are prepared to work nine hour days and achieve - or eight and a half hour days and achieve a nine day fortnight. In other words, it's not an actual reduction. It's just that we work and accumulate so they get a day off every two weeks instead of four. Those are the sorts of things that we were prepared to look at. However, right now the main points are with the wage rates. But there is a number of formulas that we were prepared to look at on that, and - - -

PN923

THE DEPUTYY PRESIDENT: It's one thing for you to be prepared to look and another thing for you to come up here and say, we want you to impose that because they won't agree.

PN924

MR DEAKIN: Yes, that's right.

PN925

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: We need substantial argument and bases of merit to why we would do that.

PN926

MR DEAKIN: Okay.

PN927

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: It might be that it's something you do wish to, not necessarily expect now, but you do wish to pursue in the future and that's why I asked you questions about what did the term of the agreement that was in your notice of bargaining period, was that altered during negotiations because I would suspect that your position on a 36 hour week would depend on whether, if an award issues out of here, issues for the term of, till 1 October 2006 or 2008. But that's for you.

PN928

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So if we're looking at your log, the first two claims are still as stated?

PN929

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour. We believe - - -

PN930

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: The third claims as stated?

PN931

MR DEAKIN: Which one are you referring to, your Honour?

PN932

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: I am looking at your log of claims. I thought that's what we were going through.

PN933

MR DEAKIN: Yes, yes.

PN934

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So the wage increase of $80 on 1 March 2004, you are seeking that, you are seeking the wage increase from March 2005, you are seeking a 36 hour week. What about classification levels to be based on normal hourly rate and what's the basic hourly rate. I think that arose out of your having those amounts as building, didn't they?

PN935

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, most of that did arise out of the allowances. The classifications have already been underway. The government has still got a long way to go. I have lost my log of claims, your Honour.

PN936

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: It's behind tab 20.

PN937

MR DEAKIN: Yes, it's - yes, it's - - -

PN938

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Is it still $80 you are seeking?

PN939

MR DEAKIN: Well, your Honour, whatever it would take to get up to the 21.75 and that's what I am saying, is that everything was changed. Everything was built around allowances to take them up to the hourly rate. Our log of claims now then in front of you, your Honour, would be different. The hourly rate is the one constant that we're now seeking, so the make up would probably be a lot higher than the $80 a week.

PN940

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Okay, could you produce a piece of paper tomorrow morning that sets out which of these claims in the log that you are - - -

PN941

MR DEAKIN: An amended log?

PN942

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes.

PN943

MR DEAKIN: Okay, yes.

PN944

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: I think that would be of assistance to us.

PN945

MR DEAKIN: Yes, yes. The ones that - rather than go through the log of claims I can give you an amended one tomorrow and that would save us all - - -

PN946

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: I think that would be of assistance to everybody.

PN947

MR DEAKIN: It would be better to - yes. I think that's all I can - in closing, your Honour, I'd reiterate that our position now is that there is no argument over the allowances. It is just, we will probably actually identify you with another breakdown of the wages how we see it. Thank you, your Honour.

PN948

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Thank you, yes, that would be of assistance, thank you. Mr Deakin, are you going to refer to the Act in the sense that the matters we have to have regard to as a Full Bench under 170MX(5)?

PN949

MR DEAKIN: Your Honour, I - - -

PN950

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: It might be an idea, if you won't attend to that this afternoon, if you did that in the morning. We could proceed with the employers, start the employer's witnesses this afternoon because as I said to you earlier, that part of the Act governs what we must do sitting as a Bench.

PN951

MR DEAKIN: Which part of the Act?

PN952

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Have you got your Act there?

PN953

MR DEAKIN: No, I haven't, your Honour. I thought I brought it out with me, but I didn't.

PN954

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, well, I think that's probably more reason why it's appropriate that you address me and us at a later stage and that is, if you look at MX(5) and that is what we must have regard to, must have regard to means we must. We have no choice. Each of those matters must be given - and there is a Full Bench authority to this effect - each of the matters that the Act says we must have regard to require serious consideration to be given by the bench. So MX(5) sets out six matters that we must have regard to, or consideration to, we must have regard to, and so we would be assisted if you could address us on those mandatory matters at an appropriate time and I don't expect you to do it without giving it due consideration. That's 170MX is the section, what happens if the Commission terminates a bargaining period under MW, that's what's happened, by SDP O'Callaghan, and in particular, once a Full Bench has been set up, 170MX(5) is invoked, and (6) and my. So I give you the opportunity now to address us on what we must take into account, but I don't expect you to do it now. We can proceed to deal with the other witnesses and then if you could come back to us at an appropriate time tomorrow. Is that appropriate? If you don't wish to address us on it, we need for you to say that you don't intend to put any further submissions.

PN955

MR DEAKIN: Tomorrow would do, if it's possible, your Honour.

PN956

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, thank you.

PN957

MR DEAKIN: Thank you, your Honour.

PN958

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: It will be at a convenient time before we call upon the government to put their oral submissions.

PN959

MR DEAKIN: Thank you.

PN960

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, thank you, Mr Deakin.

PN961

MR DEAKIN: Sorry, it was 170MX(5) and (6) and?

PN962

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, if you wish to, it's just the code by which an arbitration is governed.

PN963

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: In addition and inter-related with that really is the question I asked you this morning, was we have to find it's appropriate to issue an award. If you wish to put any further submissions other than what you stated this morning, that it is appropriate because it's unlikely that you will reach agreement, they can and probably should be put in the context if you address MX(5) elements as well, but we need to decide whether we issue an award or not. It's not automatic that an award would issue. So we need to be convinced that one should issue, that it is appropriate for one to issue. So if you wish to expand on that reason you gave this morning, that opportunity is there tomorrow as well. Thank you.

PN964

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, thank you.

PN965

DEPUTY PRESIDENT MCCARTHY: The specific direction to us is in 170MX(3), Mr Deakin.

PN966

MR DEAKIN: Thank you, your Honour, we will ensure that we will have a presentation tomorrow morning on the matters that you have suggested.

PN967

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, thank you. Mr McRae, is it appropriate if we commence your evidence?

PN968

MR McRAE: Yes, your Honour, certainly.

PN969

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Do you want a short break before we do or are your witnesses ready?

PN970

MR McRAE: No, I am prepared to go on.

PN971

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Good, is that appropriate? Yes, we'd be pleased if you'd start.

PN972

MR McRAE: Yes, I rely on our outline of argument and I don't propose to open further than that. I call Mr Ford.

PN973

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: None of your other witnesses are present in the court, are they?

PN974

MR McRAE: No. Now, that's tag 16, your Honour.

<CHRISTOPHER JOHN FORD, SWORN [3.32PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MCRAE

PN975

MR McRAE: Mr Ford, I think you have prepared a statement for lodgement in this Commission?---Yes, that's correct.

PN976

Do you have - I will just get available for Mr Ford a copy of the statement. Mr Ford, if you'd look at the statement now produced and advise whether that is your statement?---Yes, that is my statement.

PN977

Are the contents of that statement true?---Yes, yes, I believe the contents are true.

PN978

Then in the first place, your Honour, I seek to tender the statement.

EXHIBIT #SA1 STATEMENT OF CHRISTOPHER JOHN FORD

PN979

MR McRAE: Now, I ask leave to ask a few supplementary questions. Mr Ford, there is been considerable discussion as to the use of contractors in your
system?---Yes.

PN980

And I'd like you to indicate how many contractors you have at the site full time at the moment?---Okay. At the moment we have one fitter, machinist fitter, in our bed repair section.

PN981

What does that person do?---That person is occupied full time in the repair of beds, trolleys, bedside lockers and the like. There is a lot of mobile equipment in the hospital and we channel all of that work to that particular person.

PN982

Go on, anyone else?---We have what we call a lighting patrol person and that's a full time position for one person, full time work for one person, I should say, and that person attends to faulty lights throughout the complex and that's an item of repair that keeps coming in on a daily basis to replace fluoro tubes and other lights.

PN983

Now, aside from those contractors do you have from time to time contractors for special purposes?---Absolutely.

**** CHRISTOPHER JOHN FORD XN MR MCRAE
PN984

Would you explain what those circumstances are?---I guess, working on from the other two that I mentioned who are a regular arrangement, an almost constant regular arrangement is a base electrician because we have a lot of demand, we always have had, for installation of power points, new power points, perhaps lights and the like and it's become a practice, certainly for the last few years, to employ a person doing that work. It's not assured work in the long term or always, because mostly the funds we use for those installations are funds which are not regular funds, but departments have various funds which they use to have this work done and the work load varies, but I must admit, the last two or three years it's been almost a constant factor, but that person is not there all the time. But it's mostly at this stage.

PN985

There is been also some issues raised in relation to the interaction between full time employees and contractors?---Yes.

PN986

Can you take us through a couple of aspects of that. Firstly, what is the situation in relation to the management and supervision of contractors for special tasks, who undertakes that?---The maintenance and supervision of our special class people?

PN987

Yes?---We have - I am the head of the Environmental Service Department and not involved closely with the trades day to day, but I have a maintenance manager and he in turn has a maintenance coordinator, but the special class electricians and all trades, for that matter, report direct to the maintenance manager. He is an electrically qualified trade by origin, but he's been in the management position of maintenance for a number of years now.

PN988

We were told in evidence this morning that there are five electricians at your hospital?---Yes.

PN989

All of whom are special class, is that correct?---Well, yes, it's broadly correct. There are specific gradings. The - four of the electricians are - and I need to perhaps refer, but they are advanced special class and we have one electrician who carries out the leading hand duties who is a special class electrician as well.

PN990

Do any of those persons, now that is the five electricians to which I have just referred, ever find themselves required to supervise the work of
contractors?---Yes. I will deal with perhaps a special project instance in the first case. One of our electricians, to use as an example, has been on higher duties and involved in coordinating and supervising contractors installing security systems. Our communications technician involved with infrastructure relating to information technology spends a great deal of his time coordinating IT contractors because he cannot do all of that work, so he does coordinate them. The special class electricians in their normal capacity, I wouldn't say strictly supervise contractors, but they do become involved, sometimes giving information to the contractors, providing information on the building et cetera to them and at times helping them interpret the various codes, particularly in specialised areas that we do have in a hospital, critical care and operating theatres.

**** CHRISTOPHER JOHN FORD XN MR MCRAE
PN991

Well, I'd like to distinguish between the two cases, that is between the supervision and other assistance given. In the case of supervision, is it the case that the full time electricians are reclassified when they're required to carry out that
task?---Yes, yes, that has occurred with one of our electricians at least.

PN992

But in the case of general assistance, as you referred to in the second part of your remarks?---Yes.

PN993

It take it that their rate remains the same?---Yes, they are - the contractors are supervised by the maintenance manager or a project supervisor in that case.

PN994

Yes, thank you, your Honour.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DEAKIN [3.40PM]

PN995

MR DEAKIN: The high voltage work that is required in the hospital, who does that?---The high voltage work, our electricians have been trained by appropriate trainers, I believe it would be ETSA Utilities, at at least two occasions that I can remember. Our electricians get involved in high voltage switching and the occasions when we overhaul, replace a high voltage transformer, overhaul the high voltage switching, it is either done by a resource like ETSA or it's done by a contractor who's used to working in that type of equipment, and generally it's done over a night or in a shortened time frame and it's carried out by - we need the resources of the contractor as well, but our people are involved.

PN996

Is there occasions where it's required to have your people there at the same
time?---Yes, yes. In fact, if it's a high voltage change, a transformer or a switchboard or whatever, our electricians spend a great deal of time prior to the event in preparing the building so that that part can be shut down and they would be on site at the same time as the contractors.

PN997

So it's fair to say when we talk about assistance and supervision of?---Mm.

PN998

I mean, it's more than that. It's because it's the hands on, like, preparation work for the contractor to come in and be in there while they're doing the job and actually making sure everything starts to run properly afterwards, so it is, as you could say, working in conjunction with each other?---Yes, yes. But I mean, our electricians, I think I can set the scene, I have mentioned that they do most of the preparation work to get the building prepared for this work to happen and apart from anything else, they need to be on site should there be problems in the rest of the building to run other lines or share the load or whatever. So they would - I think they would always be on site. We haven't had an occasion like that for the last couple of years, I don't think.

**** CHRISTOPHER JOHN FORD XXN MR DEAKIN
PN999

Taking on board what you say as to prior to this morning, is that the assistance given by your workforce, not mainly the supervision of a leading hand because a person is classified as a team leader, it's not necessary for the type of supervision or assistance given. If there is a person there and the contractor has some problems, then that person would go along at the request of the department to give some assistance?---I think - I think - - -

PN1000

If a piece of equipment is being installed and it can't run properly, they usually come up to your guys and say listen, there is a problem here, can you help
us?---Yes, they would and they do. I was just trying to determine whether you believe that always went through the leading hand or the maintenance manager. I think we have got a very good crew of electricians, let me say that, and the relationships between the maintenance manager, the coordinator, the leading hand and the electricians, I believe to be good and I think if the electrician, special class, as it turns out, was approached, I am sure he would get help and probably let somebody know that that's what he was doing et cetera.

PN1001

What I am trying to identify is and what I am trying to get to, is not because they only go to a person because the team leader to say, listen, I need a bit of assistance, that if they work alongside of your guys and say they need a bit of assistance, that usually is given without making a big palaver about it?---Look, I believe so, yes.

PN1002

The equipment that the contractors - there is a lot of terminology that's been used this morning about electricians, construction electrician and a maintenance electrician?---Yes.

PN1003

As an electrician do you see those basically being the same? I am not talking about they're actually more skilled or whatever, what I want to try and get at is the relationship that - when people come in to do the work and they install equipment, let me see if we can change it around a little bit. Installation of equipment, whether it be on a construction site or maybe in the hospital department, it's the same type of work, would you agree?---Installation, yes.

PN1004

Right, and then that piece of equipment that has been installed by that contractor or whoever was installing it, your people are going to be required to be working on it, either preparation for that to be installed or after it's installed to maintain
it?---Correct.

**** CHRISTOPHER JOHN FORD XXN MR DEAKIN
PN1005

Fault finding and work on it, so they're actually working on the same piece of equipment and probably it didn't matter whether it's installed on a construction site or - it's basically the same?---Mm.

PN1006

Would you agree?---Yes, yes, for the installation, yes.

PN1007

And it's quite obvious on a regular basis that when installation is happening your people would probably fall in there quickly to ensure that it's going to be installed in the place where it needed to be and was doing what it's required to do, would you agree with that?---I mean, I - I think the electrician possibly could be called. Certainly we like to make our people aware of what's happening anyway and they may indeed check it. If it's - but in saying that, it's not a - the electrician doesn't have to be there every day. It might be a project that goes for weeks, but they do like and need to find out the nature of that equipment and what it does. It may add an extra load to the system and our electrical people will be concerned that the distribution board, the cables and indeed, the transformer, we have been talking about that the last couple of days, will be sufficient. And of course they have an ongoing need to maintain it after the contractor is finished and gone and before the equipment is commissioned our electricians would check as a matter of course anyway that the phase rotation is correct and when they put it on to our system it's not going to cause problems to the rest of the hospital gear which may happen to be on that circuit.

PN1008

So the contract work by the contractors on a high voltage site is exactly the same as the work that your guys would be required to do in a hospital - with contractors coming in and installing equipment, it would be exactly the same work that your guys do in actually working on the same piece of equipment, at the end of the day they'd be working on the same piece of equipment?---Well, sorry, if you said exactly the same work, I recall an instance where we had the high voltage feeder number one completely replaced. That's a specialised installation et cetera, so I just wanted to clarify that.

PN1009

Yes, just the - yes, that special piece of equipment, whether it breaks down or needs to be replaced can only be obtained from certain areas, yes, I am not referring to that part?---Yes, okay, okay.

PN1010

You would say that's basically how it works in your hospital?---I am sorry, I am going to ask you to repeat that again. I am lost - veered off in the middle.

**** CHRISTOPHER JOHN FORD XXN MR DEAKIN
PN1011

The word that contractors do is on the same piece of equipment, is it done the same way as your own workforce would do and after, when they finished with it, your guys would be working on the same piece of equipment, fixing it, whatever?---Yes, they would fault find, et cetera, and maintain it.

PN1012

Thank you?---Okay, thank you.

PN1013

MR McRAE: No re-examination.

PN1014

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, thank you, Mr Ford, thank you for your assistance and you are excused from the witness box?---Okay, thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [3.49PM]

PN1015

MR McRAE: I call Mr Crowley and 17.

PN1016

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Thank you.

<PATRICK CROWLEY, SWORN [3.51PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MCRAE

PN1017

MR McRAE: Mr Crowley, I think you prepared a statement for filing in this Commission?---That's correct.

PN1018

You have got a statement there. Is that your statement?---This is my statement.

PN1019

Are the contents of that statement true?---The contents are true.

PN1020

That's all I have.

EXHIBIT #SA2 STATEMENT OF PATRICK CROWLEY
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DEAKIN [3.52PM]

PN1021

MR DEAKIN: Mr Crowley, the work that is done on high voltage, would you be bringing in a contractor to do the high voltage work at QEH?---We have utilised contractors to do high voltage work at the QEH, yes.

PN1022

What was the name of the company?---We have used Nielsen Electric and ETSA, yes.

PN1023

Your employees, also they do high voltage work?---Yes, our employees do work on the high voltage system, yes.

PN1024

And you are in the process of actually sending them off to a course to - - - ?
---Yes, we have got some training planned, I think, for - I think it's about March, shortly, yes, yes.

PN1025

And that is to allow them to do the high voltage work that is required under the Act?---Yes, we refresh their training pretty well on an annual basis so that they keep their skills and confidence up.

PN1026

The work that would normally be done on the high voltage side of it would be the same if you called in Nielsen's or - and, what I am trying to say is, the same type of work could be done by your guys as well as Nielsen's. If your guys weren't available then Nielsen's guys would be called in, type of thing?---Look, I think the only time that we have used Nielsen's to do the same duties as what our guys normally do is when we have had the industrial bans on. Normally when we have used Nielsen's and/or ETSA it's been to do the pulse testing on the high voltage switching. I think also that they'd been utilised to take oil samples on some of the high voltage transformers because you have to dismantle those transformers to a certain extent to get the oil sample.

PN1027

Do you use contractors to do installation of plant and equipment?---We do use contractors to install, yes.

PN1028

The plant and equipment that is worked upon by the contractors, do your guys actually get involved at any time to give assistance to the contractors?---It would depend on what the work was. If we were talking about installation of new major equipment, normally that's done via a tendering process. The contractors would install the plant. We try to retain an interest from the point of view of learning as the plant goes in. If you were referring to the installation of, what, power points and lighting, is that what you - - -

**** PATRICK CROWLEY XXN MR MCRAE
PN1029

Any equipment, anything?---Okay.

PN1030

Taking that point that you just raised then, I mean, in your view is the skill requirement for a contractor coming to do electrical work any different from the requirement that you would expect from your own workforce?---Yes, I think once again it depends on what scope of work we're talking about. Some of the specialised equipment, proprietary equipment, are skills that we wouldn't have. We utilise contractors to install, you know, power points and lighting on minor works and most electricians can all do that sort of work.

PN1031

I want to go back to the proprietary work, I mean, that really comes down to - and I raised it before - is that the proprietary work is where there is a sealed - there could possibly be a sealed electronic component within the piece of equipment, but your electricians would be required to work on all that except for that sealed component?---Yes, the proprietary stuff is as you describe, or it requires a specialised tool or access tool or perhaps some specialised training on a once off piece of equipment and - - -

PN1032

Yes, and I keep referring to is mainly Honeywell, is a strong proponent of that, they really enforce that proprietary piece of equipment, but your guys would still work on everything else that - - - ?---Our guys would work on a piece of equipment like that up to the proprietary piece of equipment, that's correct, yes, as far as I can gather.

PN1033

And that's no different than installing. I mean, the installing is just basically putting in place or whatever. Usually the maintenance work, breakdown and fault finders, is a lot more difficult than a basic contractor, isn't it?---I think though that commissioning would perhaps say that they do need to have the additional access so the people that are installing those equipments, quite often when they come to commissioning them and proving that the equipment does what it says it's supposed to do and as part of the commissioning, the equipment needs to be validated so they then need to access those proprietary items in order to prove to the client that the equipment was installed as it was requested to be installed.

PN1034

Mainly on the whole of it, I mean, there is no work that these guys don't do, your electricians don't do what the contractors do, except for that small area?---Well, I think, I can only repeat, you know, just generally what I have said thus far, yes, yes.

**** PATRICK CROWLEY XXN MR MCRAE
PN1035

I will leave it at that, your Honour.

PN1036

MR McRAE: No re-examination, your Honour.

PN1037

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: All right, thank you. Mr Crowley, you are excused from the witness box, thank you for your assistance?---Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [3.58PM]

PN1038

MR McRAE: I call Mr Cauchi, that's tag 19.

<ANTHONY JOSEPH CAUCHI, SWORN [4.00 PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MCRAE

PN1039

MR McRAE: I believe you have prepared a statement for filing in the Commission, Mr Cauchi?---Yes, I have.

PN1040

Are the contents of your statement true?---Yes.

PN1041

I tender the statement, your Honour.

EXHIBIT #SA3 STATEMENT OF ANTHONY JOSEPH CAUCHI
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DEAKIN [4.01PM]

PN1042

MR DEAKIN: Mr Cauchi, you are a manager of how many employees?---I have 117 employees. Of those I have got 35 tradespeople and 10 apprentices.

PN1043

How long have you been working with the department?---32 years.

PN1044

You were there prior to the outsourcing?---Yes.

PN1045

What was the - do you know what the numbers were before they outsourced that work?---Early 19 - in the '90s we had approximately 750 tradespeople. In 1997 it was closer to 250 and then through the outsourcing process we have 40 tradespeople.

PN1046

The outsourcing is one that has now been segregated into how many zones or how many areas?---Three areas. Initially it was four and one of the contractors went into receivership and then they divvied it up into three geographic areas.

PN1047

So who does those three areas, yourselves - - - ?---Ourselves, Transfields and Spotless Services.

PN1048

In that situation you have now got down to your own area of work and your own zone and - - - ?---That's right, we have got the south - - -

PN1049

Yes, do you call contractors in to assist you?---Yes, at the peak times we do, yes.

PN1050

Are your electricians actually called upon any time to give these contractors any assistance on any jobs or in any situations?---Yes. We work alongside private contractor electricians on occasions when we do electrical shutdowns for switchboard maintenance and that's supervised by one of our operations managers, yes.

PN1051

So you have your own workforce as well as contractor workers?---That's right, yes.

PN1052

Under supervision of somebody else?---Sorry, under the supervision - under my own contractors.

**** ANTHONY JOSEPH CAUCHI XXN MR DEAKIN
PN1053

Do you have that interaction between your contractors and yourselves working on the same piece of equipment, installing and whatever?---Yes, yes.

PN1054

The work that you do, is it mainly breakdown maintenance, minor
constructions?---Predominantly it is breakdown maintenance and preventative maintenance, yes.

PN1055

Do you any small, minor construction work?---Yes, we do, at times, installation of transformers where we could again have private contractors and our own people and again that's supervised by one of our contracts managers.

PN1056

And you can sometimes set up teams where your guys work alongside under the supervision of your manager?---On the odd occasions, it's not very frequent, but it does occur at times, yes.

PN1057

And besides separate teams, there may be times when your guys are actually called to assist what they're doing and to go and assist in contract work?---Not very often. It's a pre-planned project that we do. Is that - predominantly it would be mainly the shutdowns for preventative maintenance, switchboards et cetera.

PN1058

I have finished, your Honour.

PN1059

MR McRAE: No re-examination, your Honour.

PN1060

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Thank you. Mr Cauchi, thank you for your assistance, you are excused from the witness box.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [4.03PM]

PN1061

MR McRAE: I call Mr Fitzsimons, that's tag number 18.

<DAVID FITZSIMONS, SWORN [4.04PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MCRAE

PN1062

MR McRAE: I think you have prepared a statement for filing in the Commission, Mr Fitzsimons?---Yes, I have.

PN1063

Is that your statement?---Yes, this is a copy of it.

PN1064

Are the contents of your statement true?---Yes.

PN1065

I seek to tender the statement, your Honour.

PN1066

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: The statement of Mr Fitzsimons will be exhibit SA4.

EXHIBIT #SA4 STATEMENT OF DAVID FITZSIMONS

PN1067

MR McRAE: Now, Mr Fitzsimons, there was some discussion this morning about the use of private contractors by your department and in what circumstances. Can you describe to the Commission, or explain to the Commission what the answer to that question is?---Certainly. In my statement I have referred to a couple of contractors who have been used. One is in reference to a person from Nielsen's. The other is a person - - -

PN1068

That's one person?---Yes.

PN1069

Right, yes?---The other refers - that's in the statement.

PN1070

Yes, yes?---The other refers to a contractor who was engaged at a time when we had some work bans and that person came from Victoria. That refers to where the work is essentially of a similar nature to what I believe our own people use. The other instance I have referred to in this document refers to the Morgan Dockyard where a specialised part was fitted and that virtually covered that. So I guess in essence it's where the people have done similar sort of work.

PN1071

There was evidence given of contractors used in relation to the Hysen Tunnel, are you aware of that?---Well, there is a number of components to work like the Hysen Tunnel where there is specialised contractors who come in to do the work. They would be performing tasks which are of a different nature to the type of work that our own people do. So if I can elaborate on that?

**** DAVID FITZSIMONS XN MR MCRAE
PN1072

Please do?---If I was to take, say, the Hysen Tunnels, where it's got lots of pieces of equipment and lots of skills sets needed to maintain those tunnels. Some of those skills we have in-house. Some of them we don't, and an example of that might be, say, thermal imaging, which is a highly specialised task and we would contract that out. So, for instance, when we would be getting a maintenance regime done on the Hysen Tunnels, a number of groups of our own people would be present, plus some contractors to carry out specialised tasks.

PN1073

And reference was also made to the Southern Expressway. What's the situation there?---Well, the Southern Expressway, again, it's got lots of components to it and in an overall sense, so an overall management sense, our own people would know about the management of that, but to my knowledge and look, I could be corrected on some of the fine detail here, but to my knowledge, some of the specialised equipment might need to be managed by contractors who have that specialist knowledge, whereas our own people would be looking at how the whole system fits together.

PN1074

Can you comment on the interaction between your full time employees at trade level and the specialist contractors?---If I take, say, the closure of the Hysen Tunnels might be a good example of where we would get that. I think in normal traffic signal - normal traffic signal - a normal traffic signal site, we would have no interaction but something where we have got lots of bits of equipment come together and lots of skill sets come together, our own tradespeople would be working on a set of tasks and in parallel with them people from various specialist areas would also be simultaneously working. So they'd be occupying the same site at the same time. Now, I need to go on from that and say that the team leader who coordinates the bringing together of those different providers, so our own people, plus people from other specialist areas, would be letting them know when the tunnel was going to be closed, would be coordinating the various activities so that they all happen within the required time frame.

PN1075

And who's responsible for the verification and compliance requirements with these specialist contractors?---My understanding is that would be the asset manager, so the engineer who works within the electrical assets group.

PN1076

Do both your full time employees and the specialist contractors report to that person?---Not on day to day. The arrangement is somewhat different, but the end responsibility for the setting out what standard of work needs to be achieved, where that wouldn't normally be covered by some sort of standard, would be set down by an electrical assets engineer who works within that group.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DEAKIN [4.10PM]

PN1077

MR DEAKIN: You have made statements that there was only one contractor called in to work on a regular basis. What area of work is that?---In my statement, Mr Deakin? The one contractor who was called in, I was referring to, was from Nielsen's and that was referring primarily to work on the Southern Expressway.

PN1078

Would that work be - could that be done by your in-house employees?---I guess to totally answer that question, you'd probably need to understand the history of the Southern Expressway. It's a large piece of lots of different sorts of equipment that's come together. The installation was built by private industry and then handed over to our own people to maintain. The handover stage took a long time, there were lots of issues associated with the delivery of that piece and through that handover phase, it went for a considerable time, there were lots of bugs to be ironed out and so there was initially a high level of contact, but that has diminished over time. My understanding is that it's now relatively minimal.

PN1079

So you are talking about the times when the person's coming to work on the specialist equipment?---No, I am talking about handing over a completed project and handing over and educating our people, teaching our people about that equipment.

PN1080

Was it about that period of time, was actually working in tandem with the contractors in the handover and sorting out the bugs and whatever?---My understanding is that was the case, yes.

PN1081

The other issue I'd like to raise is the work that's usually done on the tunnel is that the - I think you refer to them as jet fans. Jet fans, that usually takes up a composite group of contractors and your own people. Are you saying that they don't actually work on the same piece of equipment at the same time or are you saying that there is that - work on the equipment is done at the same time, maybe not holding each other's hand, but working on the same piece of equipment at the same time?---Mr Deakin, I didn't refer to the jet fans and I am not intimately aware of the details of what happens there. The time frame I was referring to was, we might have a 10 hour or a 12 hour window in which to complete a number of tasks. Some of those are done by our own people and some are done by highly specialised groups. Now, as I said, I am not aware of the exact workings and the level of detail of who does what on the jet fans, but I can say in an overall sense there are some tasks that our own people are not skilled in doing and we bring in specialised contractors to do that.

**** DAVID FITZSIMONS XXN MR DEAKIN
PN1082

If I can just take you back on that one, because that comes to a point where during the campaign you yourself say that you couldn't get the expertise to fix the work that these guys were on strike over and that there was only three electricians in all South Australia who could do the work and two were - one was sick, one was on annual leave and - so which special piece of equipment are you saying these guys couldn't fix?---Well, there is several parts of specialist equipment that I am aware of. For instance, there is thermal imaging of switchboards looking for hot spots. Now, that and that skill I don't believe is transferable to normal traffic signal maintenance. Another example would be working on high voltage equipment which is several thousand volts which is not something our own people do and a specialised group come in and check the transformers or whatever level is required there. I understand there is another group who look at the fire doors which are on the various tunnels between the two main tunnels. There is small people tunnels to connect them up with fire doors. There is a specialised group that come in to do that and similarly people who have got expertise in fire door maintenance, I would not expect would have expertise in being able to maintain traffic signals.

PN1083

Can I ask you a question, are you a hands on manager as far as handing out of work to different contractors or bringing people in to do the work or is
that - - - ?---No, I am not and I haven't claimed to be.

PN1084

So it's relied on somebody else to do that and how the makeup of the teams are that also relies on - you rely on somebody else to do that?---Yes, most definitely.

PN1085

The thermal imaging that you just referred to, you say the guys are not qualified to do that or skilled to do this, or is it because you don't have the cameras?---I would suggest it's a combination of the three.

PN1086

That's interesting. You see, you say you bring in Nielsen's electricians to work on these things?---Yes, that's my understanding.

PN1087

Nielsen's electricians are special class electricians and your electricians and Mr Jackson sitting there, is Level 3 classification as far as you can go in electrical engineering. Are you saying he can't do that work?---My understanding is Mr Jackson's a Level 4, Mr Deakin.

**** DAVID FITZSIMONS XXN MR DEAKIN
PN1088

Well, it's pretty close to being an associate diploma to being an engineer, it isn't much more to go. You are saying he can't do that work?---Well, I also understand Mr Jackson's got an Associate Diploma.

PN1089

All right. So you are not really in control of the day to day running of this work and how the teams are set up, so you really don't know - - - ?---No, there is a management structure that fits beneath me that handles the day to day issues and that goes right down to the team leader who would have an on-site role of supervising the composition of various teams.

PN1090

So you really wouldn't know from a day to day, the make-up of the work teams on certain jobs?---No. In an overview sense I do, but not in the detail.

PN1091

But do you see any difference between the -people keep referring to a construction electrician being different to electricians working in general. Do you see there is a difference in their abilities?---Look, I have never worked in the construction industry so I don't feel qualified to make comment on that.

PN1092

Your people do installation work?---Yes, we have in our electrical assets group we have essentially three sub-groups or four sub-groups. There is a maintenance group, they are the most highly qualified. There is an installation group for traffic signals and another group who do installation and maintenance of road lighting.

PN1093

And you bring in contractors also just to change lights, do you, is that correct?---If you are talking about regular changing of some of the old incandescent lamps, yes, we did do that, although we have embarked on a process of changing a lot of that technology.

PN1094

So it really comes back down to this, when you talk about the specialists coming in to do work, it's usually on a piece of equipment that is either sealed by the manufacturer, although you can't actually get into unless you are an employee of that manufacturer, that's the work that they basically can't touch, your own workforce?---Look, I am not sure it's whether they can't touch it because it's sealed or because there is not the detailed knowledge of the skill set to actually do the work. Another example might be the SCATA, the control system that operates some of these things. Now, there is software associated with that, but I am sure if people had the skill sets that they could actually do the work and be able to get in, but I think it's more the case that the skill set is there to play with the software.

**** DAVID FITZSIMONS XXN MR DEAKIN
PN1095

But it's fair to say that your workforce has a close, many times has a close working relationship with the private contractors?---Yes, that's essential especially on some of these larger jobs like the Expressway or the Tunnels.

PN1096

So they work many times on the same piece of equipment at the same
time?---They could be working on the same piece of equipment. Whether they're doing the same task on the same piece of equipment I guess is something we would need to discuss at greater length.

PN1097

Okay, your Honour, I am finished.

PN1098

MR McRAE: No re-examination, your Honour.

PN1099

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Mr Fitzsimons, thank you, you are excused from the witness box, thank you for your assistance?---Thank you, your Honour.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [4.21PM]

PN1100

MR McRAE: I apologise to the Commission, but the speed of the process has caught me and the next witness I have available is at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.

PN1101

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Very well, we will adjourn until 10 o'clock. Before we do adjourn however, we'd be assisted if we could have some indication from the parties as to whether or not there is an expectation the matter will be completed tomorrow.

PN1102

MR McRAE: I would hope so, your Honour.

PN1103

MR DEAKIN: Yes, your Honour, we believe it should be completed tomorrow.

PN1104

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Well, you are virtually finished your case, so I was really asking - yes.

PN1105

MR DEAKIN: There is one thing I would like to raise before - - -

PN1106

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: I beg your pardon?

PN1107

MR DEAKIN: There is one thing I'd like to raise.

PN1108

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, certainly.

PN1109

MR DEAKIN: It's nothing to do with the outcome of tomorrow, but there is the presence of the people appearing with us today in court. There has been a suggestion by the government that certain people will not be paid for attending this court this afternoon. We thought we had sorted this issue out, but we'd be seeking that these people be here with us tomorrow as well as today.

PN1110

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: They won't be required to be witnesses tomorrow, will they?

PN1111

MR DEAKIN: Yes. It's the case of providing us with some of the technical information that we require when people are discussing things. I mean, it's important, like we have just seen now with some of the information we have received, the technical arguments.

PN1112

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: This is a matter that the Full Bench is often troubled with. What's the position with the government, Mr McRae?

PN1113

MR McRAE: Your Honour, as I understand there are a bundle of issues there. So far as today is concerned we have undertaken that the employees would be paid. So far as tomorrow is concerned there are two witnesses, neither of them technical. The first is an official from the Department of Treasury, and the second is a former Secretary of - or Director of the MBA in South Australia, neither of whom would be dealing with - - -

PN1114

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: You are not calling Mr Harvey?

PN1115

MR McRAE: No.

PN1116

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Okay, I wasn't aware of that. So the position with the government is that the witnesses who appeared today will be paid but not tomorrow?

PN1117

MR McRAE: Yes, although, Ms Sjoberg tells me, that if they want to talk to us when the court adjourns we will consider it.

PN1118

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Very well. It may be appropriate that some consideration is given to the witnesses being permitted to be present for the evidentiary part of the proceedings, but that's a matter for you to sort out.

PN1119

MR McRAE: Yes.

PN1120

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: But we would ask that the parties have discussions when we adjourn and if needs be, raise the matter again tomorrow morning, but we'd expect the matter to be resolved and amicably. Very well, we will adjourn until 10 am tomorrow morning.

<ADJOURNED UNTIL THURSDAY, 10 FEBRUARY 2005 [4.24 PM]

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

IAN JAMES KING, SWORN PN72
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DEAKIN PN72
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MCRAE PN122
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DEAKIN PN178
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN193
GRAHAM MUNN, SWORN PN193
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DEAKIN PN193
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MCRAE PN222
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DEAKIN PN282
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN307
ROBERT DONNELLY, AFFIRMED PN329
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DEAKIN PN329
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MCRAE PN347
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DEAKIN PN406
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN414
NEVILLE JACKSON, AFFIRMED PN414
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DEAKIN PN414
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MCRAE PN437
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN488
KINGSLEY NOBLE, SWORN PN488
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DEAKIN PN488
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MCRAE PN507
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DEAKIN PN531
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN533
EXHIBIT #ETU1 UNSWORN STATEMENT OF NEVILLE JACKSON PN541
EXHIBIT #ETU2 UNSWORN STATEMENT OF IAN JAMES KING PN541
EXHIBIT #ETU3 UNSWORN STATEMENT OF JEFF MARTIN PN541
EXHIBIT #ETU4 UNSWORN STATEMENT OF GRAHAM MUNN PN541
CHRISTOPHER JOHN FORD, SWORN PN974
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MCRAE PN974
EXHIBIT #SA1 STATEMENT OF CHRISTOPHER JOHN FORD PN978
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DEAKIN PN994
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN1014
PATRICK CROWLEY, SWORN PN1016
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MCRAE PN1016
EXHIBIT #SA2 STATEMENT OF PATRICK CROWLEY PN1020
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DEAKIN PN1020
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN1037
ANTHONY JOSEPH CAUCHI, SWORN PN1038
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MCRAE PN1038
EXHIBIT #SA3 STATEMENT OF ANTHONY JOSEPH CAUCHI PN1041
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DEAKIN PN1041
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN1060
DAVID FITZSIMONS, SWORN PN1061
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MCRAE PN1061
EXHIBIT #SA4 STATEMENT OF DAVID FITZSIMONS PN1066
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DEAKIN PN1076
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN1099