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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
1800 534 258
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Workplace Relations Act 1996 10460
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT WATSON
COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN
BP2004/4285,BP2004/4286
s.170MW(8a) - power of the commission to suspend or terminate bargaining period
Metropolitan Ambulance Service
and
Liquor, Hospitality and Miscellaneous Union
(BP2004/4285)
s.170MW(8a) - power of the commission to suspend or terminate bargaining period
Rural Ambulance Victoria
and
Liquor, Hospitality and Miscellaneous Union
(BP2004/4286)
MELBOURNE
10.01AM, THURSDAY, 10 FEBRUARY 2005
Continued from 9/2/2005
PN3178
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Mr Parry?
MR PARRY: If the Commission pleases.
<RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS, RECALLED ON FORMER OATH [10.01 AM]
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PARRY, CONTINUING
PN3180
MR PARRY: Mr Morris, there was one matter yesterday, in respect of vehicle agreements that I would take you back to, and that's paragraph 174 of your second statement, exhibit 2. You refer there to a recent meeting called by WorkSafe in respect of the Eltham Branch?---That's correct, yes.
PN3181
Have you seen the field report of WorkSafe prepared on 28 January 2005?---No, I don't believe I have.
PN3182
Perhaps I could hand you the document?---Thank you. Yes, thank you.
PN3183
This is a field report following a meeting on 30 December 2004 at Eltham in respect of a disputed PIN notice, concerning the sprinter vehicle?---Yes.
PN3184
Is this the recent meeting you're referring to in paragraph 174?---Yes.
PN3185
You weren't in attendance at this meeting?---Which meeting?
PN3186
The meeting on 30 December 2004?---I think I was. I think I've got my name as Rob Morris with a b, but otherwise, I'm there at point 2.
PN3187
Sorry, you were in attendance?---Yes, I was.
PN3188
At the end of this report, the inspector says in paragraph 5, and I quote:
PN3189
It is acknowledged there are risks of muscular and skeletal disorders associated with seating configurations in the current MB 316 for some paramedics. However in my opinion, considerable work has been undertaken by the employer to reduce that risk so far as is practicable, and such undertakings have been done in full consultation with all relevant parties, and therefore no further intervention is required by WorkSafe at this time
PN3190
?---Yes.
PN3191
Right?---Yes.
PN3192
She then cancels the PIN notice?---Yes.
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS XXN MR PARRY
PN3193
And finally concludes:
PN3194
The role of WorkSafe is not to determine the mix or allocation of the mass pleat, but for this to be productive in continuing in a consultative manner, that all relevant stake holders, it is the duty of the employer to monitor residual risk of musculo skeletal disorder for the task of driving the MB 316.
PN3195
?---Yes.
PN3196
You also see in that field report in paragraph 4 of the short term, long term actions set up by the employer?---Yes.
PN3197
Nowhere in that is the proposition put or recorded that incident reports submitted by Eltham team members, over a substantial period of time, were not acknowledged by MAS, and required risk assessments were not carried out by MAS, do you agree with that?---Yes I do agree with it.
PN3198
The witness can't identify it. I'll indicate that I'll tender it through one of our witnesses.
PN3199
MR FRIEND: Maybe we could be provided with a copy in due course.
PN3200
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Mr Parry, perhaps your instructing solicitor could liaise with the appropriate person on the union side and make sure that documents have been provided now.
PN3201
MR PARRY: I thought that one had been. We believe it has been, but, anyway, I'm happy to tender it here. It's a document which is a WorkSafe document, four pages, clearly a field report.
PN3202
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: I suggest that Mr Friend may have an opportunity to have a look at it more closely and let's move on. You can press the tender in due course.
PN3203
MR PARRY: If the Commission pleases.
PN3204
Mr Morris, to go back to your exhibit 1?---Yes.
PN3205
You conduct criticisms of around paragraphs 13 and onwards of costings in respect of various of the union claims?---Yes.
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS XXN MR PARRY
PN3206
And you accuse Mr Lee, who's provided a costing for MAS in a statement, in paragraph 14 of being grossly in error. In paragraph 6 you say, "Not for MAS operational employees in a ..... qualified or undertaking the ALS program in part or in whole.?---I'm sorry, what paragraphs are those?
PN3207
Paragraph 15?---No, my paragraph 15 doesn't say that. In exhibit 1?
PN3208
Exhibit 2, I'm sorry?---Exhibit 2, yes.
PN3209
You say they're not all MAS operational employee and ..... or undertaking the ALS program in part or in part of in whole. You accepted nearly all of the MAS operational employees have completed at least level 1 ALS?---No, I don't believe that's the case.
PN3210
You don't believe that to be the case?---My understanding of the ALS - this is about the ALS payment and the costings for the payment for MAS. MAS were underpaying people who were qualified in ALS. There are a lot of people who reached level 1 and then dropped out at level 1. They certainly won't be paying all of these people a qualification payment because they're not all going to qualify.
PN3211
Your union is seeking a 3 tier payment, you understand that?---Yes, yes.
PN3212
I suggest that nearly operational employees have certainly completed the level 1?
---MAS costings were based on the full qualification payment of $95 for each and every one of these employees, and that was never
going to occur.
PN3213
Your position was that, I suggest, in error, in suggesting that not all MAS operational employees are qualified in whole or in part?---That's not in error at all. That's true. There were a significant number of employees in MAS who are entitled to, and who were opted out of the ALS program, and are not undertaking ALS.
PN3214
To go on with your costings, in paragraph 19 at the bottom of page 8, your calculations there are ones that don't assume part of the
rolled in rate, do they?
---No, that's correct. I think I explained that further on.
PN3215
And over the page, you do add in the rolled in rate?---Yes.
PN3216
But your calculations there don't include any addition in respect of overtime that might be worked?---I don't see how that is relevant.
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS XXN MR PARRY
PN3217
You think increased cost that might apply to overtime - I think we've accepted that there is an amount of overtime worked by all paramedics?---Yes.
PN3218
Your costing of the allowance will flow into the overtime rate?---Yes, I accept that but even if that were so - - -
PN3219
No, can we accept that the increases you propose will flow into overtime as well?
---Yes, but these paragraphs are explaining in the whole millions of dollars an amount that is grossly incorrect and even if you arrive
on the overtime or we factored in overtime as well and it's something else you could do, it still doesn't explain the grossly incorrect
costings that are wrong by millions of dollars.
PN3220
Yes, can we accept that your costings and your criticisms don't take into account any consideration of the increase in the cost of overtime?---Yes, I would accept that.
PN3221
And you don't add in any increase in on-costs either, do you?---I'd accept that.
PN3222
COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN: Mr Parry, at some stage will be giving any indication through submission or through evidence as to what percentage is relevant for on-costs?
PN3223
MR PARRY: Yes, I'm - only as ..... I think that will probably appear in the costings that have been done by Mr Lee and Mr Lister. There are two statements that are attached. Mr Lee from MAS and Mr Lister from RAV in our material which cost out the union claims and I will either make a submission about on-costs or I will go to that material.
PN3224
To go on with your criticisms of costings?---Yes.
PN3225
In page 11 on nightshift penalties, you are critical in paragraph 29 of the costings of Mr Lee and you then conduct an exercise in paragraph 30 - - -?---Yes.
PN3226
- - - on the cost of this claim?---Yes.
PN3227
Firstly you calculate it on the basis of the ambulance paramedic rate?---Yes.
PN3228
And you don't take any account that there are a vast number of paramedics in more senior classifications and/or are MICA paramedics?---That's not relevant.
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS XXN MR PARRY
PN3229
That's not relevant?---No. The rate is the ambulance paramedic rate.
PN3230
Yes, but the percentage increase that you seek is going to flow in and operate on the higher rates, isn't it?---No, the payable rate is the ambulance paramedic rate for employees, is my understanding. It is not the rate of a higher qualification or higher classification. The rate is the ambulance paramedic rate.
PN3231
But your claim for the nightshift penalties is based on the more senior rate?
---That's correct. The rate in the award or the rate in the Enterprise Agreement currently is the ambulance paramedic rate of pay
for all employees and my understanding is that our claim is to - and that was the predominant group of employees in the industry
and my understanding is our claim is now for the senior ambulance paramedic which is now the predominant group of employees in the
industry.
PN3232
So if it is to be costed on the basis of your claim - - -?---Yes.
PN3233
- - - you would be costing it on the basis of the more senior rate?---That's correct, yes.
PN3234
And again your figures in paragraph 30 don't look at the operation of the rolled in rate, do they?---No, there is just a simple exercise in establishing why the MAS and the RAV costings are just grossly overstated.
PN3235
Yes, but you see, what you've conducted is as you've described itself a very simple exercise. You haven't looked at the operation of the rolled in rates. You haven't looked at the existence of higher classifications. You haven't looked at the existence of other shifts and you haven't looked at on-costs, have you?---No, I haven't, no.
PN3236
Do you accept that the mobile phones that would be needed would be at least CDMA phones?---I think they would be the most appropriate phone, yes.
PN3237
They are a bit more expensive, aren't they, than the ones one buys from Crazy Johns?---No, that's not correct, mostly.
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS XXN MR PARRY
PN3238
Never having been at Crazy Johns, I'm not sure if I could actually advance that? I should get out more. With regard to salary packaging, I am not sure that, as I understand the position at the present, in paragraph 58 of your statement you refer to comments by the Treasurer at the end of that you say: "That transition rate benefit has still not passed on to any eligible ambulance employees"?---That's correct.
PN3239
Isn't it the position that that has been passed on to MAS employees?---I have no knowledge of that but at the time I wrote this statement, no one had received any benefit.
PN3240
This is a matter that is in the process of being passed on to employees and it requires ATO approval and so forth?---Well, it's a benefit that employees are entitled to receive from 1 April 2004 according to the Treasurer in public statements and employees have not received it and that's all I've written about.
PN3241
If I could move on in your statement into reasonable hours of work and in paragraph 74 you attach an organisational bulletin, which you attach and I think it's as attachment 51 and this is one that accuses the MAS in part of ..... and I think this arises out of the female paramedic we were - - -?---Yes.
PN3242
Did you ever put out a bulletin saying that you had been in a meeting and agreed to a process being advised to DTMs about working beyond hours where people had family responsibilities?---Sorry, can you state that again, please? I didn't hear all of that.
PN3243
Yesterday, I took you to a meeting that you attended in respect of this paramedic where you agreed to a process of DTMs being notified of certain steps, do you recall that?---Yes, I do recall that and I recall it very clearly.
PN3244
Did you ever put out a bulletin saying you had agreed to this process?---No, I didn't because the process didn't occur. The Metropolitan Ambulance Service just unilaterally went off and created their own process and didn't consult with us like they agreed to consult with us.
PN3245
I see?---That was my evidence yesterday and is still my evidence.
PN3246
In paragraph 125 you refer to balloon pump transfers?---Yes.
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS XXN MR PARRY
PN3247
You say, "Paramedics do not have the time to waste in attendance, group manager, to be made or not be able or willing to come?---Yes.
PN3248
For examples of a group manager not being willing to attend to assist with a balloon pump - - - ?---Yes .....
PN3249
Could you tell me the - - - ?---I can tell you one that comes to mind.
PN3250
- - - branch and the time and the group manager?---I can tell you the branch which is Frankston. I can tell you the paramedic involved which is Kevin Cooper who was either directly involved or reporting it to me in detail and in writing, even though I haven't seen it for some time. That started a process of trying to get this rectified.
PN3251
So Mr Cooper will be able to tell us about that I haven't seen it for some time. That started a process of trying to get this rectified.
PN3252
So Mr Cooper will be able to tell us about that?---Mr Cooper will be able to tell us about that.
PN3253
Any others?---There are others. There is details. Ringwood branch.
PN3254
Yes, when?---I can't give you the exact time but Mr Wilkinson can help us with that.
PN3255
Right?---And the health and safety rep at Ringwood branch who was consulting or negotiating with the service about whether or not a PIN notice would need to go on or whether it would be resolved some other way to help us with that and I can't remember that persons name either.
PN3256
Any others?---They're two that come to mind, I can't remember others. I'm not saying that there are not others, I just don't remember any others.
PN3257
You can't tell us any detail about them?---They are two that come to mind, I can't remember others. I'm not saying that there are not others, I just don't remember any others.
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS XXN MR PARRY
PN3258
You can't tell us any detail about them?---No. Just exactly what I'm reporting to you is that paramedics for example at the Frankston branch - the reason why I remember it is because a paramedic was injured in the moving of the balloon pump. The balloon pump is a very heavy and awkward piece of equipment. The hospital equipment not designed to be transported in an ambulance. It's a threat to ambulance paramedics but it's also a threat to the patients because the balloon pump is connected to the patient's heart. If the paramedics slip in loading the balloon pump, if they injure themselves and drop the balloon pump then the patient stands a very high chance - high likelihood of dying, unless the attending doctor who is outside of the hospital, without emergency equipment to the doctors, can actually do something about opening the patient's chest and squeezing their heart. So it's a really serious situation. The paramedics have been injured lifting that balloon pump and Mr Cooper can talk to you.
PN3259
There is one recorded injury isn't there?---I can't - - -
PN3260
With the balloon pump, one recorded injury?---No, I can't state that at all.
PN3261
You don't know, do you?---I know of at least one and I've been told that paramedics have been injured and I'd say paramedics in plural but you've - I can't give evidence on that.
PN3262
No, you can't give evidence so when you say in your statement there are numerous documented examples there simply aren't numerous - - - ?---I'm not saying there are numerous documented examples, I'm saying there's numerous examples of paramedics, in plural, reporting to the union that this is the case, that people have been injured. Normally the documents come to the union that occurred within the service and I'm not sure of the extent of the documentation. But the union has been working with the ambulance service trying to resolve this problem. We know that Metropolitan Ambulance Service over successive years has made funding applications to the government and we know that they've been knocked back two years in a row and it is currently in front of the government and it is currently in front of Victorian WorkCover Authority.
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS XXN MR PARRY
PN3263
In paragraph 126 where you say, "There are multiple documented injuries to paramedics arising from this practice." That is not a correct statement is it?---I don't believe - I believe it is a correct statement.
PN3264
You can't point to the documents, can you?---Right now, no.
PN3265
You are only aware of one paramedic being injured with this practice?---No, I'm aware of paramedics being injured at Frankston and I've told you about Ringwood.
PN3266
I have nothing further, if the Commission please.
VICE-PRESIDENT LAWLER: Mr Friend?
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND [10.25AM]
PN3268
MR FRIEND: Mr Morris, would you have a look at exhibit C for me please? Your Honour, I've got a contact lens problem myself at the moment, I can't read my notes, if I could just have 5 minutes and change my glasses. I'm sorry.
PN3269
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: That's fine, we will adjourn for 5 minutes.
<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [10.16PM]
<RESUMED [10.37AM]
PN3270
MR FRIEND: Do you recall when Mr Parry showed you those extracts from the book, "From Driver to Paramedic"?---Yes.
PN3271
At the beginning of your cross-examination?---Yes.
PN3272
If you turn to page 44, that's exhibit C I think?---Yes, thank you.
PN3273
What's the previous page to that in the photocopy?---Page 29.
PN3274
When Mr Parry took you to that, do you recall the ..... from the part sentence which is on the first page, the first line of page 44?---Yes, I remember Mr Parry read it to me, yes.
PN3275
And you remember that he said to you that it was put to you that it was an employee organisation?---That's correct, yes.
PN3276
You denied that?---Yes, I denied that I said BRASA was an employee organisation, an organisation of superintendents.
PN3277
I hand you a full copy of the book. Could you read to the Commission the paragraph which begins at the bottom of page 43?---Thank you very much. "Most of the members of the executive were members of the ambulance services committees of management, rather than ambulance officers, but the arrangement was that the superintendent/secretary from the president service would act as secretary to BRASA. Accordingly, Red Cheney, Superintendent Secretary Lynch of the ambulance service become the first secretary of BRASA, because Councillor Les Payne from the committee of management was the first president.
PN3278
Now, onto page 44, which the Commissioner has, thank you. Could you hand that back. You recall you were also asked about some industrial
action in 1999?
---Yes.
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS RXN MR FRIEND
PN3279
Can you have a look at this document?---Yes, it was published by me on 6 April 1999.
PN3280
That's a bulletin by the Ambulance Employees Association?---That's correct, yes.
PN3281
That sets out the basis for the dispute between the union and the employer at that time?---That's correct, yes.
PN3282
I tender that if the Commission pleases.
PN3283
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Any objections, Mr Parry?
PN3284
MR PARRY: No, I don't object to this.
MR FRIEND: If the commission pleases, I don't intend to get the witness to go through these documents, I just want to introduce them to the record.
EXHIBIT #3, BULLETIN OF 6 APRIL 1999 ENTITLED "INTRODUCTION OF MAJOR CHANGES IN MAS, BRIEF BUT REVEALING HISTORY"
PN3286
MR FRIEND: Would you look at this document?---Yes, thank you.
PN3287
That's another document concerning the same ..... dealing with what had happened in the Commission?---That's correct, yes, and also published by me.
I tender that if the Commission pleases.
EXHIBIT #4, BULLETIN OF 27 APRIL 1999 ENTITLED, "MAS EMERGENCY OPERATIONS PLAN MEMBERS MEETING"
PN3289
MR FRIEND: And this one?---Also published by me.
PN3290
I tender that if the Commission pleases.
MR PARRY: No objection.
EXHIBIT #5, BULLETIN OF 25 JUNE 1999 ENTITLED, "UNLAWFUL INDUSTRIAL ACTION - THE ADA CHALLENGES MAS MANAGERS TO A PUBLIC DEBATE
PN3292
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Is there anything in particular in these last couple of exhibits, Mr Friend, that we should be noting?
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS RXN MR FRIEND
PN3293
MR FRIEND: Your Honour, they simply set out the course of the industrial dispute as I apprehend the case put against..... the union had taken unreasonable improper industrial action. The documents show that the action is in response to the imposition of changes in the employment of paramedics which have been planned but denied up to the point of certification of the 1997 agreement. It sets out the nature of those changes and the fact that they weren't - Mr Morris gave some evidence about this in his response to Mr Parry's questions, and it sets out, contemporaneously, the nature of those changes and the fact that they were notified to the union during the time of the discussions.
PN3294
MR PARRY: I'm not objecting to the documents going in..... the union. I'm not accepting their truth, and I don't think they're being put forward as being truthful. They're just what the union are putting forward ..... . I'm not objecting on the basis they're just being identified as publications of the union .....
PN3295
MR FRIEND: I don't understand what that means, your Honour. The documents are in. We'll have a debate about what weight they're given in due course, I'm sure.
PN3296
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: At the very least, they're the union's view, contemporaneous view.
PN3297
MR FRIEND: Yes, and we're keen to get, where we can, contemporaneous documents. The next document, which is the last in this set, is the document which Mr Parry showed to Mr Morris, but did not tender. The bulletin of 23 July.
PN3298
THE WITNESS: Yes, that was published by me.
PN3299
I tender that document.
PN3300
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Any objection Mr Parry?
PN3301
MR PARRY: No, your Honour.
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Noting your position.
EXHIBIT #6, BULLETIN OF 23 JULY 1999 ENTITLED, "MAS INDUSTRIAL ACTION UPDATE"
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS RXN MR FRIEND
PN3303
MR FRIEND: Now Mr Morris, you were asked some questions about meetings that are referred to you in your statement, in paragraph 22, your first statement. You see in that paragraph, you've got a list of meetings?---That's correct.
PN3304
It was put to you that meetings on 18 and 30 March had not gone ahead?---That's correct. I think I was in error then. I have them in my diary as enterprise bargaining meetings, but they were meetings cancelled at the last minute by the employers, and I didn't alter my diary accordingly.
PN3305
So when you put those dates in the statement, how did you arrive at those dates?
---I arrived at those dates by searching my diary and searching written notes, and those two dates came from my diary and I now accept
that that was an error. They'd been cancelled and I had not taken note of the fact that they'd been cancelled.
PN3306
The meeting on 5 April?---The meeting of 5 April, in fact was an internal meeting between Mr McGhie and myself. This went all day on the enterprise bargaining costings, and I did not note that in the diary. I just had it down as an enterprise bargaining costings meeting. That was an error made by me as well.
PN3307
And the meeting of 15 April?---I'm sorry, I don't remember 15 April. I have researched this. I looked this up the other night, and I just don't quite know - - -
PN3308
Were you supposed to have a meeting that was suspended?---I now remember. We went to a meeting in the Queen Victoria Centre, attended the meeting, and shortly after the meeting commenced, the meeting was discontinued by the Government.
PN3309
Did they give a reason for that?---Yes, I think the reason was that they wouldn't continue to meet while industrial action was in place.
PN3310
Do you remember who said that?---Yes, Mr Burn.
PN3311
I think it was also put to you about meetings on 27 and 28 July?---Yes, and I'm totally in error there, and I've searched my diary and searched my notes and I have no idea where those two dates come from. I apologise.
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS RXN MR FRIEND
PN3312
Around that time, there were none the less, your statement shows a number of meetings, and there was also some proceedings in this Commission?---Yes, in fact on or about 27, 28 July I was in this Commission, yes.
PN3313
Do you recall being asked about a letter sent to you on 23 July 2004?---Yes, I do, yes. By Mr Parry, you mean?
PN3314
Yes?---Yes.
PN3315
From what the letter said by Mr Parry?---No, no, no.
PN3316
Being asked whether you'd sent a response to that letter?---That's correct, yes.
PN3317
Can you tell us what happened in relation to that letter, please?---There is a sequence of events. The letter was sent to our office on the Friday night, that must be the 23rd. It was received in our office late on the Friday night. I was in the Commission all day on that Friday, I did not go back to my office. I don't believe I went back to the office that night. I certainly didn't see the fax that had come in. The following Monday morning I was also in the Commission but on the way into the Commission I called by the office and I did see the fax and noted its content and the fax is one seeking a meeting with myself and basically an urgent meeting. I was in the Commission, while I was here in the Commission during a break I took a phone call from Mr Lee.
PN3318
That's Mr Tim Lee?---It's Mr Tim Lee.
PN3319
And his position is?---Director of Industrial Relations, I think, Department of Human Services or equivalent position. Mr Lee invited me to a meeting, a meeting of himself and myself at a café up in Spring Street, a one on one meeting. I asked Mr Lee whether, "Was it an enterprise bargaining meeting?" and whether we'd be able to talk about the substantive issue of getting more staff and employees or resources into the ambulance services. He said that that would not be on the agenda and I said that I was not prepared to meet under those circumstances because I was in the Commission and I was preoccupied. That also I was very prepared to meet with decision makers to enable to address the key components of our claim. The meeting did not - the meeting did not go ahead. I was then in the Commission for the next couple of days.
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS RXN MR FRIEND
PN3320
What were you in the Commission for on the next couple of days?---I think it was from memory a dispute over Mr Andrew Gunn, in fact on that Monday. I remember clearly on Monday, the day of the conversation with Mr Lee because we were in the Commission at a time when a Rural Ambulance Victoria Manager was in fact giving evidence for Mr Gunn and against Rural Ambulance Victoria.
PN3321
That week were there other proceedings in the Commission?---That week there were other proceedings in the Commission, I think. On that Monday night, I think, immediately after our phone call the employees made an application to terminate the bargaining period. So there were Commission hearings to terminate the bargaining period that week.
PN3322
It's a matter of record that those Commission proceedings went for 8 days' straight, were you present all of that time or were you away for some of it?---No, I was away. On the Thursday I actually flew to Sydney and I didn't come back and I think my return from Sydney was on the Sunday. I might be - but it was either the Sunday or the Monday.
PN3323
A paragraph in your statement suggests that there was an offer of four times 3 per cent put in early - - - ?---Yes, that's correct.
PN3324
- - - early in the piece. Have you had a chance to look for your notes in relation to this?---Yes, I have.
PN3325
Would you look at this document, please? Would you tell the Commission what the first page of that document is?---The first page of the document is some scrawled notes of mine and I apologise for the handwriting. I was having trouble with the pen at the time. On the second page I've actually transcribed it for the Commission's benefit to make it clearer.
PN3326
My learned friend asks when the transcription was made?---The transcription was made last night or the night before I come over but recently. In fact last night, I found it last night.
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS RXN MR FRIEND
PN3327
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Mr Morris, how did you come to be doing that task last night?---Commission, after I was asked some questions in the box the day before and further things that occurred from this office to ..... I knew there was evidence and I've been seeking the evidence during the lunch break and last night I went back to the office and I've been seeking further information to support some of those things that I thought had been - where my answers might have been.
PN3328
You decided it would be useful to transcribe them as well?---I decided it would be very useful.
PN3329
Thank you.
PN3330
MR FRIEND: Mr Morris was asked a number of occasions, your Honour, to supply documents. He wasn't asked if he'd done it.
PN3331
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Yes.
PN3332
MR FRIEND: I should say, your Honour, we indicated to him what those occasions were and he went off and did that.
PN3333
WITNESS: This document - at the very bottom of the document I apologise for the writing but it says, "Financial year benefit" and then it goes on, "Window of opportunity of 1 month from 1 June." This is - in fact I was in error in reporting - responding to Mr Parry. I remember discussing - I think he put his question in terms of the meeting of 6 April and that was clearly the position, in my mind, at that meeting that in fact that it had been put to us on 16 March at the first EBA meeting. What the financial year benefit was, it was put to us is that the government was prepared to pay, ultimately 3 per cent per annum for each year and that we were in a year before the enterprise agreement - before it come into effect on 1 June or 1 July. We had a month from 1 June to reach an agreement and if we did we could have 3 per cent this financial year, which was at that point this financial year and then 3 per cent for each of the succeeding 3 years, which is 12 per cent over - over a 3 year period. Which is in accordance with the evidence I've given in my previous statement.
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS RXN MR FRIEND
PN3334
MR FRIEND: I tender that document.
PN3335
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Mr Parry?
PN3336
MR PARRY: I'm not going to object to the document going in but I'm ..... with a large bundle of documents about 5 minutes ago, I think in cross-examination or re-examination and I anticipate from the answer that Mr Morris gave is that there's going to be a range of documents that are going to be tendered for examination. Now I will be seeking to cross-examine further. The reason I will be seeking to cross-examine further is that a number of those documents go to the detail and matters upon which I cross-examined Mr Morris. The Commission made directions in this frame, that is the union provided their statements, we provided ours and on a number of occasions Mr Gough and Mr Rogers said, "We don't know the detail. We don't have any examples of this". And we give reply to those which go into a lot of detail on a lot of things but they don't give us any of the detail.
PN3337
Then I asked Mr Morris about that and then I anticipate today in re-examination that there is going to be some attempts for a major patching. I will be seeking at the appropriate time to cross-examine further when I've obtained instructions on these matters.
PN3338
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Let's not have that argument yet because it doesn't arise at this instant. But you don't object to the tender of these notes. I suppose you are really saying, aren't you that you don't object to the tender but part of that non-objected is an anticipation that you will have an opportunity to further cross-examine.
PN3339
MR PARRY: That's so.
PN3340
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Perhaps we should have the argument. What I propose to do, Mr Friend, we will postpone really on the tender of this document until after the re-examination has finished and we may in fact end up taking the same course with other documents that you seek to tender. Then the argument can be had at the end, when we know just when Mr Parry isn't starting at shadows but has - - -
PN3341
MR FRIEND: Yes, I will have a great deal to say about what Mr Parry is actually putting. I will save it for the appropriate time.
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS RXN MR FRIEND
PN3342
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Yes.
PN3343
MR FRIEND: Your Honour, I won't say anything now.
PN3344
It was put to you that the union hadn't made any concessions whatsoever throughout the course of the bargaining. Do you recall that? Can the witness be shown exhibit SNC 7 to Mr McGhie's statement? Sorry, your Honour, we are getting it - copies of all these things.
PN3345
Turn to the second page?---Yes.
PN3346
This is a document that you signed?---Yes, that's correct.
PN3347
Does the union make any concessions at the top of that page?---Yes, at point 4, it says:
PN3348
Subject to the total package being acceptable to our members, the union is likely to be able to accept four 3 per cent wage increases between 1\6/2004 and 1/12/2006.
PN3349
Thank you. You were asked about comparisons which were made in relation to paramedics and nurses?---Yes.
PN3350
Look at these documents, please. Those bulletins were published by the union?
---Yes, that's correct.
PN3351
One dealing with police versus paramedics and one dealing with the pay rate of fire fighters?---That's correct, yes.
PN3352
Are they signed by you?---Yes, they are.
PN3353
Who prepared the information on which these are based?---I I prepared some of the information, I think but in concert with Ms Forbath who's the industrial officer.
PN3354
I'll tender those if the Commission pleases.
PN3355
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Mr Parry?
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS RXN MR FRIEND
PN3356
MR PARRY: Again, I'm not going to object to the tender of them as long as their contents are correctly identified.
EXHIBIT #7 BULLETIN HEADED FIREFIGHTERS AND DOLLARS DATED 09/07/2004
EXHIBIT #8 BULLETIN HEADED GOVERNMENT VALUES POLICE AHEAD OF PARAMEDICS DATED 19/07/2004
PN3357
MR FRIEND: I have asked my learned friend to provide a copy of a document that he showed to Mr Morris yesterday or the day before concerning industrial action in RAV last year. I will come back to that in a minute.
PN3358
You were asked on Tuesday, Mr Morris - - - ?---Yes.
PN3359
- - - about a ban on vehicles and hearings before Senior Deputy President Kaufman in June. Do you recall that?---That's correct, yes.
PN3360
It was put to you the outcome was that Senior Deputy President Kaufman recommended that the bans be lifted?---Yes.
PN3361
Was there anything that MAS were to do in relation to that, that you recall?
---MAS had to put a bulletin out explaining the position from the outcome of the Commission hearing to their employees, which they
did and their bulletin captured the fact that there were speed limits - speed restrictions on the vehicles because that was an agreed
- - -
PN3362
I think we are thinking of different - - -?---My apologies.
PN3363
I'll take it up with another witness, if you don't recall it. When the union took industrial action last year in July, that was the subject of proceedings to terminate the bargaining period - - -?---Yes.
PN3364
- - - was it the union's intention to place public health and safety at risk?
---Absolutely not.
PN3365
Did the union take any action when Senior Deputy President Kaufman found the public health and safety was at risk and terminated the bargaining period, in respect of the items of industrial action then identified?---Yes. Those - those that his Honour had identified in his opinion as a threat to health and safety, we immediately left them.
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS RXN MR FRIEND
PN3366
Yes. Did the union leave other action in place at that time?---That's correct.
PN3367
Were eventually the Federal Court proceedings commenced in relation to that action?---That's correct, yes.
PN3368
Was there any agreement ever made in relation to what happened with those proceedings?---Yes, there - there was an agreement that came out of the proceedings.
PN3369
What was that?---From memory, the - it was agreed that the proceedings would not continue and the union agreed to drop all the rest of the actions.
PN3370
I have asked my learned friend to produce a document. We are having some trouble identifying it. Mr Morris was shown on Tuesday, in the morning just before lunch, at about 12.30, a document concerning action in RAV which he said had been put on by - pardon me. Anyway we will see if we can attend to that. It might be simply possible to tender that without putting it through Mr Morris once we've found it.
PN3371
You said on Tuesday that paramedics were reluctant to go on to reserve, do you recall saying that?---Yes, I do.
PN3372
Why is that, to your knowledge?---Because the Metropolitan Ambulance Service, for example, covers 9 or 10 thousand square kilometres. It's a huge area. Paramedics, when they join the service, they go through - the student ambulance paramedics are moved all around the service for experience and all the rest. Eventually, if they get a posting to a branch where they can stay, they then usually buy the house in the area, settle their kids into school et cetera. If they're put on reserve, they can be sent anywhere and it's a great burden on them. If they're on reserve, and for example, rostered for 14 hour night shift, then it's not unusual that they have an hour and a half to work and an hour and a half home, or even longer and that just makes the day unbearably long.
PN3373
You also mentioned that there were other ways that this could be solved?---Yes, that's correct.
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS RXN MR FRIEND
PN3374
What are those?---There are paramedics in the Metropolitan Ambulance Service who like working in the reserve, so - for their own purposes, so the Ambulance Service call for expressions of interest of those people, they could offer them like they have in the past, where if paramedics chose to work on reserve, they pay them a package that offsets the extra inconvenience of being on reserve and solve it that way. They can also solve it by employing enough paramedics into the job so that they have actually a true reserve, not the artificial one that they're trying to create now.
PN3375
You were asked in quite a lot of detail about the current clinical instructors provisions?---Yes.
PN3376
It was put to you that there was nothing in the agreement that said there would be free clinical instructors per team, do you recall that?---Yes, I do recall that.
PN3377
You've got exhibit RN 2 in the witness box there, that's the current agreement?
---Yes.
PN3378
Would you look please at clause 11(a)(v)(B)?---It might be easier, the page number is, page 11, my copy doesn't have that page, I'm sorry. They've been paginated back to front. I found it, but the holes are punched in the reverse order. Anyway from page 11, I found it. It follows page 8 unfortunately in my copy, it's page 11.
PN3379
We might at a suitable time, if the Commission pleases, provide additional copies of RN 2, because it's obviously an important document.
PN3380
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: My copy seems to be all right, Mr Friend.
PN3381
MR FRIEND: Well, I'm grateful.
PN3382
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Page 11 does follow page 8 - - -
PN3383
MR FRIEND: Does that tell you anything about what was supposed to occur with the critical instructors?---Yes it does, it reinforces what I said, that there are 15 permanently appointed clinical instructors provided for in the agreement, and that there - it says here:
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS RXN MR FRIEND
PN3384
CTT, clinical training team will be an ambulance team excluding peripheral teams, paramedic response units, and single respondent teams with three or more permanent ongoing ..... roster lined dedicated to training as a first priority. Each appointed clinical instructor of the clinical training team will be dedicated to the training.
PN3385
Et cetera. What that tells me, there will be a minimum of three clinical instructors who are permanently appointed to each one of those teams.
PN3386
You're reading from where?---From (v)(B) at the bottom of page 11.
PN3387
You were taken yesterday morning to your attachment RN 28?---Yes.
PN3388
It was put to you that the working brief suggested resources to meet proposed response times standards?---Yes.
PN3389
You answered that that was partly right?---Yes, That's correct.
PN3390
In what way is it not right?---What the working brief in fact was there to do was to do two things. One is identify clearly what the performance was in the ambulance services right now, and that performance is measured. Make a recommendation to the Government for future performance, and so the recommendation is an ideal performance for the future, and that was taking into account looking at international standards and standards of ambulance services in other States. The committee reached an agreement on what that standard should be. It's a very slight improvement, in some regards and some aspects of the measurement, and what's currently occurring. It then also recommended the resources required to meet that standard. Inherent in that is the resources that will be required anyhow.
PN3391
Next, you were asked about Mr Carroll's statement at paragraph 17. ..... the level that he discusses. He said:
PN3392
The major use of the model is to assess future resources requirements to achieve MAS response timetables to assist the impact of changes and practice on response time performance -
PN3393
?---Yes.
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS RXN MR FRIEND
PN3394
- .that a simulation of large numbers of scenarios, with activity resource options and operation strategies. Alternative resource
options include different numbers and types of new response units, AGC ..... single responder
- - -
PN3395
?---Yes.
PN3396
- - - in different locations for these units. Alternative operational strategies include changes in the times of responsive operation, changes in dispatch intervals, changes in the prioritisation of case types. Changes in the times ..... and changes in hospital
PN3397
?---Yes.
PN3398
Scenarios to test the impact of changes in the forecast growth rate were also analysed -
PN3399
You had some disagreement with the application of that. I'm sorry, I've read the wrong paragraph. I'm not very helpful. Try again. Paragraph 27 if the Commission pleases:
PN3400
The adoption of crude utilisation criterion would lead to serious ..... of resources in a few efficiencies. For example ..... the provision of additional resources in areas of ..... high ..... performance, but the extensive areas where response times is poor despite low utilisation rates.
PN3401
?---Yes.
PN3402
These allocation decisions should be based on the resource requirement to achieve it's visit response performance targets for each area, that is the appropriate level of service provided to the community, and of course decisions will need to take into account, OH and S considerations each would be articulated independently.
PN3403
You had some dispute with the first part of that paragraph?---Yes I did.
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS RXN MR FRIEND
PN3404
Could you describe that?---The shortcomings there - there's two major shortcomings in my view. The first one is that the ambulance services ..... measuring what they've done in the past were projected into the future. What they're also saying about high workload areas is that high workload areas seem to have reasonable response times, and that's true. In those really high workload areas of maintaining reasonable response times, it's at the expense of paramedics having meal breaks and rest breaks. In fact it's because the paramedics are always on the go, that they're actually achieving a reasonable response time. The Metropolitan Ambulance Service doesn't measure, or take into account, the fact that they have a duty of care or responsibility to employees to actually work them under humane conditions. Those humane conditions are not reflected in the model in any place. Mr Carroll does rightfully say:
PN3405
the procedural considerations will have to be considered.
PN3406
But he says elsewhere that the funding for his model comes out of the models for funding, and the resources flow out of the model, and the funding and the resources don't flow out of the elsewhere, of the occ health and safety study, may or may not be done ..... .
PN3407
Shortly after that it was suggested to you that, put it this way, you expressed surprise that MAS did not use utilisation rates as a measure?---Yes.
PN3408
Can you turn to attachment RN 30 to your statement, please?---Yes, thank you.
PN3409
Do you recall that document?---Yes, I do.
PN3410
Does that document tell you anything about MAS and the use of utilisation rates?
---Yes it does, just for - it's on the Lawler's benefit. The author of these documents, Mr Shane Foster was at the MICA unit on the
Saturday night we did the inspections. His Honour might recall him. Mr Foster at the time was working on the MICA as I understand
it and was working, and clearly had identified - they were using utilisation measures to work out their workload. The attachment
to the document identifies that the utilisation measures were different on the night component of the work compared to the day component
of the work, and actually give a reasonable outcome. Having said that, if you do average it you get a 51 per cent utilisation.
If you actually look at a separate component, there was a 66 per cent utilisation at one part of the day, down to a 30 or 35 per
cent utilisation on another part of the day. Mr Foster, or Paramedic Foster, I should call him, team manager Foster was of the belief
and understanding that MAS would use the utilisation measures, and that's why he was using them to establish there is extra resources
required for that work location, or a change to work practice.
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS RXN MR FRIEND
PN3411
There was quite a bit of cross-examination yesterday about paramedics being asked to go to hazardous or dangerous jobs?---Yes, that's correct.
PN3412
You were asked if you could find any examples?---Yes, that's correct, I remember, yes.
PN3413
You were asked particularly about the example which you mentioned about being involved in a shooting?---That's right, yes.
PN3414
Would you look at these three documents, please? The first of those documents is headed, "Incident Report"?---Yes.
PN3415
Is that a document you received in the union?---Yes, it is.
PN3416
Did that concern the shooting incident?---Yes, it does.
PN3417
Is that what you based your evidence on?---Yes, it was. I was having a senior's moment yesterday and I couldn't remember the name of the paramedic but it was Ashleigh Jackson who's a MICA paramedic and Sandy Carne who's another MICA paramedic.
PN3418
I tender that first document.
PN3419
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: The first document is the incident report.
PN3420
MR FRIEND: That's correct, your Honour.
PN3421
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Or is the first document the - - -
PN3422
MR FRIEND: No, it's the incident report.
PN3423
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Any objections to the incident report, Mr Parry?
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS RXN MR FRIEND
PN3424
MR PARRY: I have no objection to their tender, but subject to the proviso that I raised earlier. That is I don't have instructions with regard to this. I've not seen it before it was handed to me about half an hour ago and as I said just a bit earlier we find a process here of us saying we didn't know. The reply statement is not giving us any detail. Mr Morris not having any detail all yesterday and then us being handed this in re-examination. We will certainly be looking at it and taking instructions and it may well be appropriate that Mr Morris be able to be cross-examined further and we will certainly be calling evidence about it. But I don't object to it being marked on that basis that - on getting proper instructions I may well want to seek now to cross-examine Mr Morris again.
PN3425
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Mr Friend?
PN3426
MR FRIEND: My learned friend didn't object to the tender but then made the submission again.
PN3427
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: It was effectively consenting to a conditional tender and the condition being that if he needs to cross-examine Mr Morris when he has obtained instructions on the matter he be allowed to do so.
PN3428
MR FRIEND: I'd understood, your Honour, that we decided to - your Honour suggested that we leave this argument until all the documents were in but if we have them I'd be happy to make submissions.
PN3429
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: I think that's an appropriate course, yes. So I will put that to one side pile for revisiting at the end of the re-examination.
PN3430
MR FRIEND: If your Honour pleases.
PN3431
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Mind you the position is not going to change between now and then, we're just going to have the argument once because Mr Parry won't have instructions at the end of the re-examination.
PN3432
MR FRIEND: I understand that, your Honour, but Mr Parry asked for the documents, he didn't then ask Mr Morris when he had an opportunity if he got them.
PN3433
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: I take it the other documents are in the same category?
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS RXN MR FRIEND
PN3434
MR PARRY: Yes, it's the same category, it is going to be the same submission at the end of the day.
PN3435
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: I will put the Email from Waverley Branch to AEVIC Group Manager 2 Waverley team manager for 7 January 2004, a handwritten note to Mr Morris on 12 June 2004 also in the to be considered pile.
PN3436
MR FRIEND: You were asked before lunch - - -
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Strictly speaking these documents ought to be marked for identification. I think that is probably the appropriate course.
MFI # 6 INCIDENT REPORT BY MR JACKSON
MFI # 7 EMAIL OF 07/01/2004
MFI # 8 HANDWRITTEN NOTE TO MR MORRIS OF 12/06/2004
MFI # 9 MEETING NOTES OF MR MORRIS OF 16/03/2004 AND ASSOCIATED TRANSCRIPT
PN3438
MR FRIEND: Thank you, your Honour.
PN3439
Also before lunch you were asked about the case of Mr Peter True?---Mr Peter - yes.
PN3440
And the resolution of that in the Commission?---Yes.
PN3441
It was put to you that the warning was lifted and Mr Crew had to acknowledge that he would accept calls, do you recall that, being put to you?---Yes, I do.
PN3442
Can you look at this document please?---Yes.
PN3443
Is that the settlement agreement in relation to that incident?---Yes, it is.
PN3444
Signed by you?---Yes, it is.
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS RXN MR FRIEND
PN3445
What does that say at point 3?---It says:
PN3446
Whoever agrees that should Peter Crew be contacted in an emergency situation or he is on a rest break and Peter Crew advises the communication officer that he is still too fatigued to perform duties he will not be directed to perform such duties.
PN3447
And had RAV offered that before the conciliation?---No.
PN3448
MR FRIEND: I tender that document, if the Commission pleases.
PN3449
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Mr Parry?
MR PARRY: I have no objection.
EXHIBIT #9 SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT DATED 22/10/1999
PN3451
MR FRIEND: It was also put to you in regard to long service leave that part of the union's claim was that long service leave be taken as single days?---Yes.
PN3452
And that the employee be entitled to dictate the terms of when he or she took long service leave?---That's correct, yes.
PN3453
Are those claims made by the union?---No, they're not.
PN3454
Is it in the union's drafted MX award?---No, it's not.
PN3455
MR PARRY: .....
PN3456
MR FRIEND: Yes, he did, didn't he, because you said it to him and it was wrong.
PN3457
MR PARRY: I didn't say he was wrong yesterday.
PN3458
MR FRIEND: You were wrong yesterday, Mr Morris, weren't you?---Mr Parry put a proposition to me. I have never heard of it but I thought maybe we had made an error and I agreed to that on the basis that I thought - Mr Parry put it to me but I checked it last night and there is no such claim by the union.
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS RXN MR FRIEND
PN3459
Not the only thing which was wrong. You were asked to find some documents concerning pin notices?---That's correct, yes.
PN3460
Particularly dealing with incidents at Eltham?---Yes.
PN3461
Have a look at these documents, please. There was evidence in your statement about this incident, wasn't there?---That's correct, yes.
PN3462
The handwritten document, is that the provisional improvement notice - - -?
---Yes, the first - - -
PN3463
- - - written by the health and safety rep, Craig Hazlewood?---That's correct, yes. The first one is 24 February, 2003, provisional improvement notice put on at Eltham. The second - - -
PN3464
Just a minute. About two-thirds of the way down the page, there is a space to be filled in: "The measures I believe you should
take to remedy the contravention"?
---That's correct. Mr. Hazlewood - - -
PN3465
Just hold on, Mr Morris. The first of those is to replace Eltham's Mercedes Benz 36 with a GMC?---That's correct, yes.
PN3466
And that is item (a)?---That's item (a), yes.
PN3467
If you go to the field report - - -?---At point 1(a) towards the bottom of the page it said that item (a) has been removed, that we could not ensure that other safety risks would not develop as a result of changing the vehicles over and that is in accordance with my testimony.
PN3468
In the third - this is the report of the Worksafe inspector?---That's correct, yes.
PN3469
In the third paragraph, under paragraph 1, the reasons are set out in respect to the issue of the improvement notice because this
is an improvement notice, isn't it?
---That's correct, yes.
PN3470
I tender those documents to the Commission, please.
PN3471
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Mr Parry?
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS RXN MR FRIEND
PN3472
MR PARRY: No objection.
MFI #10 WORKSAFE FIELD REPORT 03/03/2003 AND STAPLED BUNDLE OF PROVISIONAL IMPROVEMENT NOTICES
PN3473
MR FRIEND: You were asked about proceedings before Commissioner Foggo in December last year to ..... vehicles?---Yes, that's correct.
PN3474
Is this a copy of the Commissioner's recommendation in relation to those matters?---Yes, that's correct.
PN3475
The Commissioner there recommends that the operational life of the sprint shift shall not exceed 130,000 kilometres subject to some exceptions?---That's correct, yes.
PN3476
And 150,000 at the end for the automatic version of the vehicle?---That's correct and I think yesterday in an exchange between his Honour and myself, I don't think that point was made clear. Not all vehicles in the fleet are the sprint shift, in fact the majority of them now I think or certainly half of them are the new automatics and they have a longer life than the previous sprint shift.
PN3477
Is this recommendation consistent with the union's position?---Yes, it is.
PN3478
I tender that if the Commission pleases.
PN3479
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Mr Parry? Any objection, Mr Parry?
MR PARRY: No, I'm sorry, no objection.
EXHIBIT #11 RECOMMENDATION OF 10/12/2004
PN3481
MR FRIEND: Remember yesterday it was put to you that the vehicle at Eltham on 19 January this year had an engine failure, was stationary?---Yes, that's correct. I remember that and I disputed it.
PN3482
Yes, look at this document please. Is that a notification received by the union in respect of that incident on 19 January?---Yes, that's correct.
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS RXN MR FRIEND
PN3483
Is that partly on what you based your evidence?---Yes it is, I was aware of this. I couldn't remember the author's name, but I was aware of the incident and I was aware that, I've spoken to the crew as well. I was aware that the car was travelling and just by, fortuitously they were travelling slowly.
PN3484
I tender this if the Commission pleases.
MR PARRY: Will that be in the MFI file?
MFI #10 HANDWRITTEN NOTE WITH FACSIMILE TRANSMISSION DATED 19/01/2005
PN3486
MR FRIEND: Next, do you recall it being suggested to you that you had never made or lodged a notification to the Commission before Christmas?---Yes, that's correct.
PN3487
About the vehicles?---Yes, that's correct.
PN3488
Will you look at this document, please. Is that the notification to Commissioner Gay?---Yes, it is.
PN3489
And does that contain fax cover sheet?---Yes, it does and I've checked the fax number, it's one I've previously used to communicate with Commissioner Gay and - - -
PN3490
And the verification ..... ?---That's correct, yes.
PN3491
But you haven't heard back, so - - -No, we haven't, no.
PN3492
- - - obviously it's slipped out of the system somewhere. I tender that if the Commission pleases.
PN3493
MR PARRY: I don't object to the tender provided there is no suggestion this was served on the employers that I represent.
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: There is no evidence of that at the moment. There is no specific evidence of service at the moment. Exhibit 12 is the facsimile of 10 December 2004 from Mr Morris to Commissioner Gay.
EXHIBIT #12 FACSIMILE OF 10/12/2004 FROM MR MORRIS TO COMMISSIONER GAY
**** RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS RXN MR FRIEND
PN3495
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Mr Morris, as the panel responsible for that panel is this a dispute that is still live and active?---Yes, it's still live.
PN3496
I will make sure that that is brought to the attention of Commissioner Foggo.
PN3497
MR FRIEND: We are probably a bit tied up at the moment. It's probably the reason nothing will be done.
PN3498
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: I just want to know whether or not it needs to be, as it were, reactivated.
PN3499
MR FRIEND: Thank you. The other document is the document that we haven't got a copy of, it was shown to Mr Morris, about some industrial action in RAV, it was union action. We are still having trouble finding it but we now know which one it is. My learned friend doesn't object to it being tendered in due course about it having been put through Mr Morris. We will be able to do that by agreement then. That's all the re-examination I have of Mr Morris.
PN3500
MR PARRY: I think what my learned friend is asking about were documents that I put to Mr Morris concerning industrial action in RAV in September last year and there are two bulletins as to industrial action. One I think at Shepparton and one at Ballarat which led to the making of a 127. Those are the two documents that I think I put to Mr Morris and I'm assuming are the documents that need to be tendered.
PN3501
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Does Mr Morris need to remain in the witness box or if there is to be further cross-examination that will occur at some later time?
PN3502
MR PARRY: If the Commission pleases, I've made my submission with regard to that.
PN3503
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Does Mr Morris need to sit here whilst this argument occurs, the answer is no.
PN3504
MR PARRY: The answer is no.
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Thank you, Mr Morris.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.40AM]
PN3506
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: In relation to MFI 6 through 10 do you wish to add anything further, Mr Parry?
PN3507
MR PARRY: No, your Honour.
PN3508
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Yes, Mr Friend?
PN3509
MR FRIEND: If your Honour pleases. Those documents arose directly out of the cross-examination and directly out of the way the cross-examination was made. Mr Morris was asked if he could find those documents, Mr Parry raised those issues and sought to explore them. So he opened up the cross-examination on those issues. He asked for the documents to be obtained. His opportunity then was this morning or yesterday or any time after he'd asked for documents, to ask Mr Morris if he'd found anything. Then continued cross-examining him about it.
PN3510
It's not open to him, in my submission, to seek to reopen his case and reopen the cross-examination.
PN3511
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Would it not have been open to Mr Parry to object and object properly to the assertions of conclusion in Mr Morris's statement in relation to these matters, each of them as it were being documents that go to examples that make the conclusions good? If that objection had been made in the interest of fairness it would have had to have been upheld with leave to you to lead the evidence in-chief to support the drawing of such a conclusion. If that had occurred Mr Parry would have had a proper opportunity to cross-examine.
PN3512
MR FRIEND; Your Honour, things may have occurred in that way although, firstly they didn't, but, secondly, in a matter such as this and I would have resisted that objection there's a real difficulty in applying strict rules of evidence just because of the very nature of the case. It is about impression, it's about what tends to happen. The evidence as it stood was Mr Morris's assertions and his impression. Now he has produced those examples in those documents because he was asked - Mr Parry asked him to and having done that if he doesn't then follow it up - - -
PN3513
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Especially the only way to test the proposition, isn't it?
PN3514
MR FRIEND: He didn't say, well, that's - he doesn't have to ask him to produce documents, your Honour. He didn't say he hadn't got any examples. Your Honour, it's not that it - I suppose in a sense I don't particularly want to be seen to be attempting to take unfair advantage. We weren't in a position to give those documents to Mr Parry earlier. We didn't know those issues were going to be raised in that way, obviously, so there's no question we raised it.
PN3515
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: You'd have to be a rocket scientist to work out that if you put yourself in Mr Parry's shoes and you've got to deal with what's a bald assertion, a conclusion, how does one otherwise test it? Anyway be that as it may the issue here is really not what may be received into evidence. The question of whether or not there might be further cross-examination permitted and then there's a secondary issue if conclusions of that ought not occur then the question arises, is it fair to admit them into evidence?
PN3516
MR FRIEND: Your Honour, we would rather have them in evidence with cross-examination than not in evidence at all. A number of those matters were raised as going to Mr Morris's credit.
PN3517
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Absolutely.
PN3518
MR FRIEND: There are a number of matters where his credit is attacked and a number of them where it's been vindicated, particularly by those documents.
PN3519
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: The documents ought to be admitted into evidence and that further cross-examination on those specific matters will be permitted.
PN3520
MR FRIEND: On those documents, your Honour.
PN3521
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: The matters to which these documents relate.
PN3522
MR FRIEND: Your Honour, we would want notice of any other documents that are going to be produced in that cross-examination and we are concerned about the length that the hearing is taking. We don't want to - - -
PN3523
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: You're not Robinson Crusoe.
PN3524
MR FRIEND: No, your Honour. We would hope that the matter could be - there could be some limit on the cross-examination in some way.
PN3525
MR PARRY: I will get the instructions and I'm certainly not in a position to cross-examine Mr Morris about them at them moment.
PN3526
MR FRIEND: In regard to that we've had to meet Mr Parry's cross-examination overnight virtually. It would seem that Mr Morris could be finished tomorrow
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Let's wait and see, and I think issues about the length of cross-examination will need to be addressed at the time. But Mr Parry can be expected to be eager to deal with it efficiently.
EXHIBIT #13 PREVIOUSLY MFI 6
EXHIBIT #14 PREVIOUSLY MFI 7
EXHIBIT #15 PREVIOUSLY MFI 8
EXHIBIT #16 PREVIOUSLY MFI 9
EXHIBIT #17 PREVIOUSLY MFI 10
PN3528
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: I don't suppose it's necessary to tell Mr Morris that he is not excused at the moment given that there is potential cross-examination no doubt he will be here for the time being.
PN3529
MR PARRY: He will be here until he retires which is not far off.
PN3530
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Yes.
PN3531
MR PARRY: We will deal with it.
PN3532
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: I shouldn't be seeking to try and - I didn't understand what it was about I was making guesses but that shouldn't occur, anyway. Your next witness is Mr McGhie?
PN3533
MR PARRY: If the Court pleases, before Mr McGhie is sworn, I have left this witness to my learned junior, Ms MacLean.
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Yes.
<MR STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE, AFFIRMED [11.47AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND
PN3535
MR FRIEND: Your full name is Stephen John McGhie?---That's correct.
PN3536
Would you state your address, please?---(address supplied)
PN3537
And your occupation?---I am the assistant secretary of the ambulance section of the LHMU.
PN3538
You prepared two statements in this matter?---That's correct.
PN3539
One being dated 3 December 2004 consisting of 94 pages and 43 attachments?
---That's correct.
PN3540
Are the contents of that statement true and correct?---Yes, they are.
PN3541
Before I tender it, if the Commission pleases, my learned friend, Ms MacLean, has claimed that she didn't have page 6 and none of the copies on their side included page 6. I just inquire whether the Commission has page 6 of the statement?
PN3542
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Yes.
PN3543
MR FRIEND: Good. I tender that statement being attachments.
PN3544
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Did you have the witness affirm the truth of this statement?
PN3545
MR FRIEND: I think I did, yes.
PN3546
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Yes, Ms MacLean?
PN3547
MR FRIEND: There is another statement. I'm sorry, Honour.
PN3548
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: I think you tendered this statement. Yes, Ms MacLean?
MS MacLEAN: No objection, your Honour.
EXHIBIT #18 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MR MCGHIE
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XN MR FRIEND
PN3550
MR FRIEND: And have you prepared a second witness statement of some 30 pages and two attachments?---That's correct.
PN3551
And are the contents of that statement true and correct?---Yes.
PN3552
I tender that also, if the Commission pleases.
PN3553
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Any objection, Ms MacLean?
MS MacLEAN: No objection.
EXHIBIT #19 SECOND STATEMENT OF MR MCGHIE
PN3555
MR FRIEND: Mr McGhie's second statement is in folder B of 2. The first statement constitutes folder 4, if the Commission pleases.
With the leave of the Commission, there are about a dozen short matters that arise out of the
cross-examination of Mr Morris that I wish to ask Mr McGhie about.
PN3556
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: You will proceed and if Ms MacLean is embarrassed by any of the questions, she will no doubt object.
PN3557
MR FRIEND: Mr McGhie, the 1997 Certified Agreement, there was an issue about aggregation and discounting, do you recall that being raised with Mr Morris in this report?---Yes, I do.
PN3558
Can you tell the Commission whether there was discounting for aggregation in the 1997 agreement?---Yes, between the union and the services, particularly the MAS. I am responsible for calculating the rolling in rates with the payroll managers and aggregation provided for an increase in the rates and it was worked out that it was equivalent to a percentage increase and that was discounted against the next 3 per cent wage increase.
PN3559
And were there productivity offsets in the 1997 Agreement?---Yes, there were.
PN3560
Can you tell the Commission what any of them were?---Some that come to mind, I think in MAS, I think the OSMA Agreement was introduced. In RAV temporary replacement employees I think were introduced. I am just trying to think of some of the others. There were some vehicle issues, I think that were involved in the trade offs. There was a productivity agreement that was developed between the two services and the union that detailed a range of productivity issues. There were some increases in wage rates that hadn't provided in MAS that was offset against the wage increases, so what I mean to say there, is that we didn't seek an underpayment of those increases. It was for a period of about six months where some increases were to be provided but there is a document that details many more offsets.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XN MR FRIEND
PN3561
Are you involved in the rosters working group?---Yes, I am, in the metropolitan ambulance service. Yes, I am.
PN3562
What does that deal with?---Sorry?
PN3563
What does that deal with?---That working group consists of some managers from metropolitan ambulance service, myself and sometimes we have employee representatives involved. We have used some of the seconded people to the union involved in that process and that working group deals with looking at rosters, whether we can improve controls and new rosters. That working group also deals with meal breaks issues and clinical training teams.
PN3564
Has that working group met recently?---It hasn't met for several months.
PN3565
Do you know why that is?---My assumption is because we have been in dispute and because the proceedings here today.
PN3566
Mr Morris was asked whether CEOs have ever attended bargaining meetings in previous rounds of negotiations. Were you involved in negotiations for the 1995, 1997 and 2001 agreements?---Yes, I was.
PN3567
Did CEOs of any of the services ever attend those negotiations?---Yes.
PN3568
Can you tell the Commission who and when?---I recall Doug Kimberley being involved in a series of negotiations for one of the EBs and I remember a Mr Peter Olsak, a CEO from Metropolitan Ambulance Service involved in some of the meetings back in 1995.
PN3569
Mr Kimberley is - - -?---He is the CEO currently at RAV.
PN3570
In terms of the negotiations that you've had for the current round of certified agreements, has there been any movement on the union side in respect of any of its claims?---Yes.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XN MR FRIEND
PN3571
Could you set out what that is?---Without seeing our log of claims, I couldn't detail all of them, but some that come to mind would be the 36 hour week and I'm comparing this from our log of claims to our draft award and also there were some concessions made within the negotiations. There was the issues of the maternity uniform for female officers. That was resolved fairly quickly in the negotiations. The rostering department was an issue that was resolved very quickly in the negotiations. That was one of our claims and it was resolved very quickly. As I say, the 36 hour week, our claim is not in the MX draft. There is about five or six, I just can't remember the others at the moment, but there are about another three or four.
PN3572
The matters in the claim that are not in the draft award and you can identify in that way?---Yes.
PN3573
Are you familiar with the incident with the grievance matter involving Mr Andrew Gunn?---Yes, I am.
PN3574
Who is responsible in your office for dealing with that?---Myself.
PN3575
And is that matter finalised and resolved?---No.
PN3576
What still remains to be done?---There are a couple of issues with - with this banner and the reason why it hasn't been finalised because we are still meeting with RAV on another matter and Mr Gunn has a disciplinary warning placed on his file and been removed from the control room. Obviously Mr Gunn doesn't accept that, even though he has complied with the removal from the control room. He is working on the mica unit at the moment. That matter is in the hands of our legal advisers and we will take the appropriate action.
PN3577
Operational crewing allowance, was that absorbed into the rolled in rate?
---Operation crewing allowance is not in the rolled in rate calculations at all.
PN3578
Is it absorbed into anything?---My understanding is that when the clinical instructor's allowance was introduced, it was absorbed into that allowance, into the $1.60, and formed part of the clinical instructor's allowance, but the operational crewing allowance still exists as a stand alone allowance for officers that are rostered with student level 1 paramedics.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XN MR FRIEND
PN3579
Who are not clinically instructed?---Who are not clinically instructed and not receiving the clinical instructor's allowance.
PN3580
On the question of clinical instructors, there was a good deal of question by Mr Morris about Broadmeadows. What's the position of the clinical instructors at Broadmeadows?---Broadmeadows is a branch that has been increased in staff numbers, due to a Government policy issue on a trial, what they're doing, they're calling it as a super branch. The reasons for that was to review the workload, the resource levels providing meal breaks, rest breaks for the ambulance paramedics in that team, and to see whether that could be expanded across other areas in MAS. That team consists now of, initially it had an eight line roster which was a 10 14 roster. They now have two 8 line rosters there, and they work concurrently, so two crews work concurrently, two day shifts, two night shifts. Previously the Broadmeadows branch only had sessional CIs, and no one appointed - I think now, currently, they've probably got two people appointed as CIs as part of the super team.
PN3581
Do you know when they stopped being sessional and the two people became
..... ?---I think it's only happened in the last few months, couple of months.
PN3582
You were aware of the circumstances of the case where the paramedic refused code 1 in order to pick up her child at the child care centre?---I am aware of the case.
After the meeting that Mr Morris was questioned about, do you know if anything happened in relation to that paramedic?---I'm of the understanding that the paramedic was called to a second meeting, and she met with some management representatives on her own and was, on my words, forced to sign an agreement, a document, and I believe she did so.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MACLEAN [12.01PM]
PN3584
MS MacLEAN: Mr McGhie, just in relation to that last matter that you were asked about, do you have a recollection of when that meeting took place?---I don't have dates or things like that.
PN3585
How did you come to know that meeting?---The union was contacted by the member and informed verbally is my understanding.
PN3586
Before or after the meeting took place?---After the meeting.
PN3587
When you say the union was contacted, was that yourself?---That, I can't recall. I could check the file of the member but I just can't recall whether it was myself or someone else from the union.
PN3588
You say that the paramedic concerned was asked to attend a meeting with
whom?---I believe there were some management in attendance.
PN3589
Who were those managers?---I'm not aware of who the managers were. I'll make an assumption that it would have been her group manager.
PN3590
Yes but you don't know that?---I don't know - well, that's who deals with these issues, that's the level that it's dealt with so - - -
PN3591
But you don't know?---I don't know which group manager.
PN3592
In relation to one other matter that you were asked about this morning, you were asked some questions about a rosters working group?---That's right.
PN3593
You said that that comprised a number of MAS managers?---That's right.
PN3594
Who were they?---Mr Mark Rogers, Mr Ron Eke, and it varies from time to time. Sometimes there's been Mr Wilton Reek from the rostering department, and sometimes they have managers in an acting capacity that may come in, acting in a group manager capacity, so that can vary.
PN3595
How long has that group been in existence?---I would think we started meeting back in, it was either 2001 or 2002. It was after the certification of the current EV.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3596
Is it an ad hoc group, or does it have regular meeting dates set?---We tried to have regular meeting dates, yes. We do try to have regular days.
PN3597
With what frequency have they been?---Well, depending on the urgencies of issues that come up in between meetings, they can be called on at any time, but we do try to meet, probably every 6 to 8 weeks.
PN3598
Every 6 to 8 weeks?---Yes.
PN3599
You said that you hadn't met for I think you said several months, is that right?
---That's right.
PN3600
You made an assumption about why that would be, but you don't know why the meetings haven't been taking place?---No, I believe that we're not meeting due to, obviously the issues that are before the Commission, and there was an issue that I raised with MAS in regard to the ..... break strategy that MAS needed to provide more resources, and I haven't had a response in regard to MAS doing that.
PN3601
You've asked for this group to meet in recent times, have you?---Not in recent times, no I haven't.
PN3602
If we can go to your first statement. Have you got copies of both your statements there?---I have, yeah.
PN3603
Let's deal with a couple of housekeeping matters, Mr McGhie, you're the assistant secretary of the union, I think you said?---That's correct.
PN3604
Mr Morris is the secretary?---That's correct.
PN3605
I think you said to us yesterday, or it might have been the day before, that he was invariably the spokesperson during the enterprise negotiations, does that accord with your recollection the way the negotiations were conducted?---Depending on the issues and depending on the level of debate, and within the union we have different expertise on different areas of the ambulance industry, but, overall, Rod's the one that ultimately would be the spokesperson, yes.
PN3606
I think he said that you took very full notes of these meetings?---In my own little cryptic way, yes.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3607
It's clear from your statement that you have either kept very good notes of these meetings, or you have a very fine memory. They are very detailed accounts of what happens in these various meetings, aren't they?---Reasonably detailed, yes, yes.
PN3608
You did keep notes?---Yes.
PN3609
You still have those notes?---Yes.
PN3610
There are a number of issues raised in the evidence of Mr Morris about the enterprise agreement, and the negotiations. I just want to take you to a couple of those matters. Mr Morris, you will recall, gave some evidence - you were here during the whole of Mr Morris' evidence?---That's correct.
PN3611
He gave some evidence about a wage proposal being put by the services, do you recall that?---This is the four lots of 3 per cent, that what you're referring to?
PN3612
That's right, yes. What's your recollection as to when that proposal was put on the table during the enterprise negotiations?---I don't have any recollection of it.
PN3613
You don't?---No.
PN3614
At all?---No. Well, can I qualify that. I do remember it being clearly stated by Mr Burn at the meeting of the State council where we had a meeting, an EVO negotiation, meaning we had a meeting where our State councillors were involved, but I don't have a recollection of it prior to that.
PN3615
Perhaps if we could turn then to the matters that you deal with in your statement relating to the claims of those ..... they start at paragraph 241?---Yes.
PN3616
Is it the case is it, Mr McGhie that the claim of the union is to increase in both ambulance services the rest break between periods of work from the 9 hour rest break, as it is in the present arrangement, to a period of 10 days?---That's correct, yes.
PN3617
And that claim is maintained?---Yes.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3618
And you say that paramedics often had to work extended periods including originally up to 16 hours and on occasions in excess of 20 hours. You see that in paragraph 243 of your statement?---That's correct. Yes.
PN3619
You know that Mr Eke takes issue with that observation? You've read Mr Eke's statement?---Yes.
PN3620
He says that that ..... aware of ..... indeed and that he certainly can't find examples of where that might occur. You're overstating the position there, aren't you, Mr McGhie?---No.
PN3621
So you can provide us with some information that would support that observation that you make about regularly up to 16 hours and on occasions in excess of 20 hours of work?---Well, the information comes from MASs own statements within the negotiations where they stated to us that on 25% of their night shifts, their night shifts crews work up to two or more hours after the night shift. So, that's one part of the evidence, the second part is that, I do have evidence that at branch stations that have worked up to 16 and 20 hours.
PN3622
What do you mean by branch stations?---Well, one example that comes to mind is Bacchus Marsh and I think I've dealt with that in my required statement and that branch had tried to negotiate a new roster and that still hasn't eventuated.
PN3623
The example that you give, that's Bacchus Marsh, the 20 hours?---That's right.
PN3624
And how did that come to be worked? What's your knowledge of the manner in which those 20 hours were worked by the individual concerned?---Well, Bacchus Marsh is an on-call branch. They work eight 10-hour shifts in a row and they do seven nights of on-call and they obviously have an extensive period of work during their on-call hours, and that can happen at some of their - at MACs on-call branches where they are worked for extensive periods of time.
PN3625
What I asked you, Mr McGhie, was how was it, with the 20 hours was worked at the Bacchus Marsh station by the particular paramedic
which you're referring to?
---Well, it would be paramedics not one paramedic, because there's also - - -
PN3626
You're saying there's more than one person who has worked in excess of 20 hours?---Yes. Well, they work in a crew in MAS so there's two in a crew and there's two in a crew at Bacchus Marsh.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3627
And is this one period of 20 hours or you say on occasions in excess of 20 hours?
---Yes.
PN3628
Is there more than one instance that you probably .....?---It is my understanding and without going back to the file, it's my understanding that the Bacchus Marsh crew have raised this on more than one occasion and hence that's the reason why they started negotiations probably about two years ago with MAS to look at trialling new rosters and I was involved in some meetings of those negotiations out at Broadmeadows with, I think group manager Danny ..... at that time and unfortunately that issue has not been resolved and not been progressed any further.
PN3629
So when you say on occasions they worked in excess of 20 hours, you're referring there to Bacchus Marsh. Are there any other locations?---Specifically Bacchus Marsh.
PN3630
And where you say ambulance paramedics often had to work extended periods regularly up to 16 hours, you are referring there are you to the MAS statement, I think you said earlier?---Well, that's one part of the evidence. We - as Mr Morris indicated when he was in the witness box, the union gets many verbal complaints and concerns, emails, and faxes and I can't recall exactly every one of those but in recent times I've received fax from a member where a person I think worked up to 19 hours.
PN3631
In recent times?---Yep. Only in the last few weeks.
PN3632
Nineteen hours straight?---I think it's 19 hours, yes, 19 to 19 and a half hours.
PN3633
Is that in RAV or MAS?---No MAS.
PN3634
Perhaps you'd be good enough to - - -?---Yes, be happy to provide that.
PN3635
You understand that it's the position of the services that the 10 hour break is inconsistent with the manner in which the 10/14 roster is worked, don't you?---I don't agree with that.
PN3636
You know that Mr Eke for instance says in paragraph 26 of his statement on a 10/14 roster, the break between the first and second night shift is only ten hours? That's right, isn't it?---That's correct. Yes.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3637
"With incidentals shift extension overtime, the MAS would be faced with the choice of either having to release an employee from the first part of their second night shift or pay an employee at double time for their second night shift until the 10 hour break have been provided. This would represent a significant cost to the MAS and possibly reduce coverage." What do you say about that?---Well, I don't believe that coverage would be reduced. It may incur a cost but based on statements made to us on the EBA negotiations that it's already incurring a cost now if they've got 25% of their night shift staff, their first night shift's not finishing until two or more hours later.
PN3638
Yes, but Mr Eke, who is the communications support manager, ..... says that this would represent a significant cost to the MAS, you're in no position to dispute that, that there would be additional costs, if the break was extended by a period of .....?---Well, I dispute it from the point of view that I think that MAS would manage their night shifts a bit better than what they currently do.
PN3639
And the extension of the break is encouragement to do that, is it, is that the purpose of the claim, encourage them to manage it better?---No, no. Well, hopefully that might be one outcome out of it but - but the main reason for the extension of the break is that it's been determined that eight hours between work is not sufficient for someone to finish their work, travel home, deal with family issues, try to have a rest, travel back to work and then be in a fit state of mind and a fit physical state to continue their next 14 hour shift or any other shift.
PN3640
You know, don't you, that RAV also have concerns about the extension of the eight hour break to a 10 hour break and these were communicated during the enterprise negotiations?---Yes.
PN3641
By Mr .....?---Yes.
PN3642
And Mr Peg in his statement referring to a paragraph where you assert that there was an agreement in principle to this claim by RAV - you know Mr Peg denies that don't you?---I know that Mr Peg denies that, and I'll still state that both services agreed in principle that - of the 10 hour break, but obviously for their own reasons they reject that conversation.
PN3643
And that agreement in principle would no doubt be recorded in your very full notes that you have taken?---I believe so.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3644
Yes, perhaps you might have a look for those as well while you are going back through your files. Now, you say in your statement that you received significant, I think you described them in paragraph 242, as "we would probably get complaints on a weekly basis about this issue." Is that perhaps overstating it a little, Mr McGhie?---No.
PN3645
What form would those complaints take?---Well, as I said before we get many, many complaints on a weekly basis regarding a range of issues but in regard to rest breaks, they are verbal, email, fax, representatives informing us that a crew is not getting appropriate breaks and we've had many grievances in the past dealing with this issue hence in the last EBA, the '97 EBA, we got 30 EFT - 2001 EBA I should say - 30 extra EFT in rural ambulance, Victoria, to deal with this specific issue of rest breaks, non provision of rest breaks and - - -
PN3646
Let's just deal with the claim as it stands now, Mr McGhie, which is to increase the present rest break from eight hours to 10 hours. What you're asserting in your statement, I'd suggest to you, is that the existing break is not sufficient?---That's right.
PN3647
And that is generating complaints. Now what I'm asking you is to tell me what those complaints are about?---Well, as I expressed before, our members are telling us that eight hours is insufficient to deal with the workload that they're dealing with and the long hours that they are dealing with, to travel home, to deal with their family issues, to try and have a rest at home and travel back to work and then deal with their next shift and our members are saying it is an inappropriate timeframe to try and think that someone can fully rest up in that period.
PN3648
And these complaints as you've described them have been raised with the ambulance services by yourself or by the representatives of
the union, have they?
---Well, I - yes they have and - - -
PN3649
In what form would that have been?---Well, I assume that someone has raised them through OH&S because that would be an appropriate form for them to do so.
PN3650
Do you know them?---There have been - - -
PN3651
Have you?---Sorry.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3652
Have you?
PN3653
MR FRIEND: The witness is trying to answer the question. He's been interrupted a number of times.
PN3654
MS MacLEAN: Go on?---There have been grievances within RAV and I think even in Mr Morris's evidence, in regard to people seeking 8 hour rest breaks or appropriate rest breaks, and an outcome of this is that and it's not even contained in - anywhere in an enterprise agreement. Members are resorting to things called fatigue breaks now and this is a thing that has been developed over years because they haven't been able to achieve an appropriate break and rather than just say to the ambulance service that they want to have an 8 hour rest break they are now informing the service that they need to take fatigue break to get an appropriate break and that's something that's come into the industry probably within the last three years.
PN3655
Mr McGhie, what I'm asking you is, do you have instances of complaints that have been made to the services by your members that an 8 hour break is not sufficient?---I don't have anything with me, no.
PN3656
And you know, don't you that Mr Eke - - -?---
PN3657
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: But have you, you may not have them with you, butt have you received any complaints that 8 hours is insufficient assuming there's no call out in the period.?---Well I believe in the union office there would be records of complaints, yes.
PN3658
You don't recollect any at the moment?---Not at the moment. I don't recollect any particular incident, but I do - I know of the union being contacted about this issue by members in various ways.
PN3659
But I thought the complaints you've been talking about are not complaints that 8 hours is insufficient but rather that people are being interrupted in their 8 hour break?---Well, that's one issue but the 8 hour break has been an issue also, the 8 hour rest break in itself.
PN3660
Because it's insufficient?---Yes.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3661
MS MacLEAN: But you can't call to mind at the moment a complaint about the insufficiency of an 8 hour break?---No. no.
PN3662
You know, don't you, that Mr Eke has searched - well, and this is in paragraph 28 of Mr Eke's statement. "I can search the DTM E log" - you know what that refers to?---Yes, I know what the E log is.
PN3663
The ..... is a log?---Yes.
PN3664
For the last three years to identify when incidental overtime has meant that the 14 hour nightshift was so extended that the employee would not have been able to start their next shift at the commencement time because they would not get an 8 hour break.
PN3665
This is in relation to your assertion that people are working 16, 19, 20 hours and he says that:
PN3666
A search of the E log has revealed that this has only occurred in the last 3 years on approximately seven occasions with the longest time being one shift of 18 hours but mainly 16 to 16.5 hours.
PN3667
Are you in a position to dispute that?---Well, firstly, I think Mr - what you are referring to is that Mr Eke was only searching in regard to 10.14 rostering, I think, and my statement doesn't just refer to 10.14 rostering. I'm talking about in the ambulance services overall in rostering in general and in MAS and in RAV they have various rosters but it's not just 10.14 and the example that I used before was Bacchus Marsh which is not a 10.14 roster. But MAS also have people that work on peak period units that might be 10 or 12 hours in length and some of those people will be asked to go and fill other vacancies as in the example I've just said arose a couple of weeks ago, where an officer was working in a peak period unit I think of 10 hours. Someone went off sick during the middle of a night shift. That officer was transferred across to another branch and completed the night shift which extended his shift to 19 - I think it was 19 or 19 and a half hours.
PN3668
And he would have done so voluntarily, wouldn't he, Mr McGhie?---That overtime was by agreement, yes.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3669
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Mr McGhie, I understood your answer to be what lawyers call a "confess and avoid" answer. That is, you were agreeing - you weren't seeking a challenge or effectively agreeing with what Ms MacLean is putting to you about there only being seven instances in the E log system but your response was to say that may be so, but the E log system was only part of the picture. It only records 10.14 shifts, it doesn't record other types of shifts and it doesn't record shifts in areas - other parts of the ambulance services out - that are not on 10.14 shifts?---No, your Honour, the way I see Mr Eke's statement in regard to the seven instances was that he only reviewed the 10.14 shifts and not the shifts overall and the E log would record all shifts.
PN3670
MS MacLEAN: Mr McGhie, are you referring in your statement where you say that paramedics are regularly working up to 16 hours on occasions in excess of 20 hours, to shift extension overtime only?---No, well - - -
PN3671
No?---Well, it's all shift extension overtime if it's 16 or 20 hours, because the longest shift is 14 hours.
PN3672
You were referring earlier to the Bacchus Marsh branch and I think you were talking about periods of on call?---Yes.
PN3673
Are they being included in your regular working hours?---Well, Bacchus Marsh can do it in a range of ways. They'll work their rostered hours then they can do continuous overtime and then they can go on to on-call or they can go on to on-call from their rostered shift. So theirs is a bit of a mixture of overtime and rostered hours, whereas the set roster such as the 10.14s and the peak period rosters, any overtime over and above their rostered hours would either be continuous or full overtime shifts.
PN3674
And shift extension overtime is voluntary overtime, is it not?---Not necessarily. It could be due to - as we've had evidence before the Commission, it could be due to a late case at the end of the shift that someone doesn't particularly want to do but has to do.
PN3675
What I - I'm sorry, I should have put that more carefully. Full shift overtime is voluntary overtime, isn't it?---Yes, yes.
PN3676
I think you refer to it as incidental overtime or shift extension overtime, that is the delay in a case of something of that nature?---Can be.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3677
But if a paramedic is to work a full shift of overtime, that is by agreement - - -?
---Yes.
PN3678
- - - with that paramedic?---Yes.
PN3679
And Mr Eke is referring in his statement to shift extension overtime which is, as you understand it, the case that comes in at the end of the shift which requires an extended working period?---It's work that's required at the end of the shift whether that's a case or whether it needs to be standby at an incident or something like that, yes.
PN3680
Yes, and that is the only kind of overtime that paramedics would work that is involuntary, if I can refer to it that way?---In some cases, yes. Not in all cases because some people might want to work on - so that can still be voluntary from the point of view that people are happy to do it but there are some that may wish - may need to get away.
PN3681
Let me put that to you in another way then, Mr McGhie. It's the only kind of overtime that can be worked without requiring the agreement of the paramedic, in most cases?---Well to a degree. They still require the agreement of the paramedic, to a degree.
PN3682
If they require the paramedic to attend the case, is what you mean?---Yes, but there are circumstances where the paramedic may not be able to attend as has been raised within the Commission previously.
PN3683
Yes, but if there is a shift to fill because of an absence or there's a requirement to fill a shift and that's to be filled by a person on overtime, that person on overtime has to agree to fill that shift, doesn't - - - ?---If a shift - of a vacant shift?
PN3684
Yes?---Yes, of course.
PN3685
Now you say you now have in paragraph 245 of your statement that: "Paramedics are working a greater amount of overtime than previously." You then go on to exhibit SM36 which is the public accounts document?---Yes.
PN3686
Do you see that?---Yes, yes, I do.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3687
That report relates only to the Royal Ambulance Service, does it not?---That's correct, yes.
PN3688
And you know from Mr Rogers' statement that he asserts that overtime within the Metropolitan Ambulance Service at any rate is poor?---He - sorry, could you repeat that?
PN3689
He says that it's a reducing number, the amount of overtime worked. Do you know that?---I don't agree with that.
PN3690
I was coming to that, I assumed that you wouldn't, and upon what do you base your disagreement with Mr Rogers' assertion on that point?---Well, I base it on a history and a knowledge and discussions and negotiations that the unions had over many many years with the ambulance service.
PN3691
Yes, but Mr Rogers is talking about right now, and he says and this is at - I'll just make sure that it is the right paragraph, at paragraph 102 and I'll read you what he says, Mr McGhie, just to refresh your memory. I assume you've read Mr Rogers' statement?---I have.
PN3692
Based on the full shift overtime hours, the overtime worked in comparison to the total hours -
PN3693
He is responding here to a few figures that Mr Morris has given.
PN3694
- available per employee per annum is 5 per cent and not the 13 per cent claimed by Mr Morris. Mr Morris states the overtime figures do not take into account recalls. This is not correct. They are taken into account -
PN3695
He goes on. He then goes on to deal with the averages of overtime and states that the average has gone down over the last three years. This is the average full shift overtime. Do you understand that?---Yes.
PN3696
He says that's going down and the trend is down for the next - the upcoming period. Do you disagree with that?---Yes I do.
PN3697
You know that Mr Rogers is responsible for resource management, if I can call it that and the preparation of service delivery plans?---Yes, I know Mr Rogers and what he does, yes.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3698
He would have access to information which would enable him to make that statement that the overtime figures that he's analysed show a trend downwards, rather than upwards?---Yes, he would have access to that.
PN3699
Are you in any position to bring forward any contrary information?---No.
PN3700
No. With respect to the rural ambulance service, Mr Gough also states - and you've read Mr Gough's statement?---Yes, I have.
PN3701
He states that the Rural Ambulance Victoria had a number of strategies in place to minimise overtime. Do you take any issue with that statement?---I hope that's what they're doing, yes.
PN3702
He tells us at paragraph 174 about the common practice for operational centre employees to hold off assigning code 3 cases at the end of the nightshift and to wait until the dayshift commences. Are you aware of that?---I think that's appropriate.
PN3703
And another way that RAV attempts to minimise excessive overtime is for the operational centre to attempt to ensure that full shift overtime is evenly distributed amongst employees. You're aware of that initiative?---It's a requirement.
PN3704
Sorry?---It's a requirement.
PN3705
Yes, so you're aware of that. This is done by keeping a list of the amount of overtime and he goes on to describe how that's done. You don't take any - that's a requirement you say?---Yes.
PN3706
It is. He also says that there are very few hauls that are greater than 8 hours?
---There are sorry?
PN3707
Few trips that would require greater than 8 hours duty by a paramedic in the Rural Ambulance Victoria?---I'd agree with that.
PN3708
Yes, and of course he makes the observation - we've dealt with this - the full shift overtime is always voluntary and that's the same with Rural Ambulance as it is with the ..... is?---That's right.
PN3709
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Mr McGhie, I have great difficulty understanding what - let me start that again. The ambulance services, both of them, are places typically of career employment. People don't join the ambulance service to stay for a year or two. They join them to make a career out of it. I have great difficulty seeing how - that's I assume a male ambulance paramedic on a base level would be able to keep a wife who is at home, looking after children, if that be the choice of the couple and live on the wages they get paid. That may be said across a number of professions, certainly if they're struggling with mortgage repayments. Is it not the case as a matter of reality that many of your members actually depend upon overtime?
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3710
THE WITNESS: Definitely.
PN3711
And would object vociferously if their overtime was reduced? When I say dependant upon overtime, dependant upon overtime to make ends meet?---Yes, I understand your question, your Honour. The overtime field, for want of a better term, with the group of paramedics - they're - you know, they're bracketed into various levels. There are some that would work every minute of the day overtime. There's that middle group that will take it as a convenience thing and use it to their advantage as you say in the circumstances to make ends meet. And then there are some that just don't do any overtime apart from the Late case. So it's the middle group - it's the higher group that are of real concern because there's an issue of fatigue and whether they're you know, fit for duty, for one reason.
PN3712
When you say the higher group, they're the ones who only do it at the end of the shift?---No, they're the ones that will do any amount of overtime, exorbitant amounts of overtime, all right. But you're right, there are - - -
PN3713
Then this is a sort of a paternalistic approach, is it not, because the group that you've identified are ones who wanted to do as much overtime as they can?---No, that top group that I've suggested, there's a concern from others within the industry of the safety of doing that, and what we've got to do is take all of that into account and deal with overtime overall. See, our concern is that overtime is an inherent thing in the ambulance industry. It's unavoidable. But due to a range of reasons of government policies, obviously EBAs, extra resources, I'm unable to fill shifts with - as with Mr Morris eluded to, a reserve - then there's a greater need for people to work overtime. And yes, some ambulance paramedics do rely on it. There's no doubt about that. And there would be some, that you know, that would probably say to us, "Look, don't cut our overtime," they would be saying.
PN3714
So would it be fair to say that those who are complaining about overtime are either doing it in a paternalistic sense because they perceive that others, who are happy to work, large amounts of overtime, ought not in the interests of the others, be working those large amounts of overtime, or to a much lesser extent, a very small number of people who object to being required to work even modest amounts of overtime?---I'd say the main reason why ambulance paramedics work overtime is to keep the system - to keep the service going. They had to make sure that resources are on the ground. And there's no doubt obviously, there's a monetary reward, but the main reason would be - even in circumstances where they don't wish to come in but they do because of the fact they're the only resource, would be to keep the service and provide that service, especially the ones in their local communities.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3715
Yes, thank you. Yes, Miss MacLean?
PN3716
MS MacLEAN: Mr McGhie, I might just follow up on the question that his Honour just asked you. Is it part of the union's claim in this proceeding to reduce overtime worked?---The union's claim is to increase the resource input or to have an appropriate overtime. And we say that for too long there has been an inappropriate overtime level within the ambulance industry.
PN3717
And when you refer to an inappropriate overtime level, what sort of overtime are you referring to? We've already been through the different kinds of overtime that there are, some voluntary - most voluntary - some not?---Yes.
PN3718
Which overtime are you referring to when you make that statement that it's inappropriate?---Well, I think it's overtime in general, but - like, I could break it up into certain areas. Like, we have continuous overtime and we say that there's probably been an increase in that.
PN3719
When you say continuous overtime, what do you mean by that?---Well, that's the incidental.
PN3720
Continuous with the shift?---Continuous with the shift.
PN3721
Yes, the Late case as his Honour - - - ?---Yes, yes.
PN3722
Referred to it earlier. Yes, all right, and you say, sorry, I interrupted you?---So that area has been a concern of ours and I think it's been recognised within the industry and we've had discussions with both the services on the amount of overtime such as full shift overtime and recalls to duties. And in MAS recalls, it's not such a big issue because of the fact that they don't - they only have 9 peripheral branches, so they don't do it very often. But in RAV it's a bigger issue. In MAS, the issue of overtime is a bigger issue.
PN3723
Let's just take the full shift overtime. What do you say about the level of full shift overtime?---Well, I would say MAS in regard to the level of full shift overtime is that it's at a level that's still too high and I think it's been recognised by MAS in the past and in particular in their MICA units.
PN3724
So you say that's too high and you think that ought to be reduced?---Yes.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3725
That's the overtime that is voluntary, isn't it?---Yes.
PN3726
Yes, all right, and then you're going on to describe the third type, which was the on-call situation - what do you say about that?---Well, it definitely has been recognised in MAS and in RAV in some of their on-call branches, but their call out workers - is at a level where they probably need to be rostered on 24 hours. What I mean by that, is they roster 24 hours, not a particular crew rostered on 24 hours.
PN3727
No, they haven't got to that level yet?---That might happen, but.
PN3728
Could be one flexibility that you talk about, Mr McGhie. Is that an offer or we would consider that? All right, so the on-call workers
- you see it demonstrates I think you said this is confined mostly to Rural Ambulance Victoria?---Well, they had more on-call branches
and MAS only had 9 on-call branches and MAS don't recall to the level that RAV would do.
You say the level of recall within the Rural Ambulance Service discloses that - an excessive level, as you would say?---In some workplaces,
yes, definitely.
PN3729
Any in particular that you could call to mind?---I'm just trying to think now. Probably branches such as Colac branch, places like Kyabram and some of your bigger regional centres even have a lot of recall, due to the fact that they have on call attached to some of their rosters. What I mean by the bigger regional centres, I'm talking Sheppartons, the Wangarattas, the Milduras, those types of areas, Warnambools, they can have an amount of recalls. But offhand, if I had a list of branches I could point to every one, but, you know, off hand, off the top of my head I can't name them all.
PN3730
What you say in relation to the Rural Ambulance Service, generally, in the on call issue, is that the level of on call is too high, is that the union's position?---The level of on call or call outs?
PN3731
The level of call outs is too high, disclosing - - -?---In some workplaces, yes.
PN3732
Yes?---I think both RAF and ourselves have recognised that and have discussed that in meetings.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3733
What I was asking you about earlier was the solution to that problem as you've identified it as far as your claim in this proceeding is concerned and I think you told us and you can tell me if this is not right that the solution, as you see it, and required from the Commission, is the appointment of further paramedics, is that the resolution that the union seeks here?---Yes.
PN3734
Yes?---Yes. There are some on call initiatives that we've got in our claim.
PN3735
Yes. We'll come to those perhaps in a moment. Your Honour, I was about to move on to a new matter. Might that be a convenient time?
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Yes. The Commission is adjourned until 2.15.
<LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.39PM]
<RESUMED [2.17PM]
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Yes Miss MacLean?
PN3738
MS MacLEAN: If the Commission pleases.
PN3739
Mr McGhie, just before the lunch adjournment we were talking about overtime. Can I just ask you one further thing in relation to that topic, would you agree that the granting of the union's claim as it's presently formulated, that is for the provision of additional resources, and numbers of paramedics, may have little or no effect on the amount of incidental overtime worked, or shift extension overtime worked if I could put it that way, would you agree with that?---No.
PN3740
Isn't it the case that shift extension overtime arises where the crew finishing their shift, is the closest crew to the emergency they are called upon to respond to?---It depends on the resources available. It depends on the rostering, if you have additional resources, then I assume there will be negotiations on different types of rosters at certain work places. There could be an overlap of shifts which would reduce incidental overtime, so - - -
PN3741
So the claim for additional resources is not one that is a blanket claim in terms of numbers, am I understanding you correctly?---There's a range of claims in our draft award in regard to which provide for additional resources, for a range of issues such as meal breaks, rest breaks, as Mr Morris alluded in his evidence, utilisation reasons as workload. So there's a range of reasons - - -
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3742
Where do you envisage these additional resources being deployed? Is that something that's an aspect of your claim that you formulated?---We haven't detailed where they would deployed, apart from the utilisation clause, and that would be evidence through that utilisation clause of where that workload meets, I think utilisation of 40 or 45 per cent.
PN3743
We might turn to meal breaks. That's the aspect of the claim that commences at paragraph 247 of your statement. You say that the claim is again for sufficient additional paramedics to enable access to meal breaks within the window of opportunity. You see that?---Yes.
PN3744
Is that a claim for additional paramedics to be employed by the ambulance service?---Definitely.
PN3745
That's what you're asking the Commission to order?---Yes.
PN3746
Would you concede, Mr McGhie, that this meal break issue, if I can describe it that way, the concerns that you raise in this aspect of your statement, is not an issue at RAV?---No, I don't agree with that. It's not as big an issue in RAV, but it is an issue.
PN3747
Would you agree that it's confined, if it is an issue at all, to the operational centres at RAV?---No, that's one area where it's affected in RAV, but there are some major regional centres in RAV that have difficulty with meal breaks.
PN3748
You said a little earlier that it's part of the work of paramedics that if a case comes in, it's responded to, and this can lead to shift extension over time, that's just part of the work that paramedics do?---If the case is towards the end of the shift, yes.
PN3749
It's also the case, isn't it that there will be times during the day, or an evening shift, when paramedics are called upon to respond to emergency call, and that call needs their immediate response, no matter what they're doing. Would you concede that that's part of the work that paramedics are asked to perform?---Definitely, yes.
PN3750
You say in your statement that the 2001 certified agreement created an obligation - is this what you say, that the 2001 agreement created an obligation for the ambulance services to provide a meal break within the window of opportunity as it's described?---Yes.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3751
Can I ask for the witness to be shown, this is exhibit RN 2 to the statement of Mr Morris. It's the 2001 certified agreement. You don't have a copy of the certified agreement there do you Mr McGhie? No, it's not in your statement, it's in Mr Morris'?---No, it's not in my - - -
PN3752
If you could just turn to clause 31 if you've got that agreement there?---Yes.
PN3753
It's probably a clause you're well familiar with, Mr McGhie. What I want to suggest to you is that the positions as they create the - or they record the intention of the parties which start after the reference to Disclam, you see there's a capital A B C D, and then little Roman two:
PN3754
It is the intention of the parties that following the late meal claim reductions
PN3755
Do you see that clause there?---Yes.
PN3756
Were you involved in the negotiation of this particular provision, Mr McGhie?
---Yes I was.
PN3757
What I want to suggest to you is that this is a recording of the intention of the parties to use their best endeavours to meet the targets that are set out. Would you agree with that?---Well, as it's written, yes, it was the intention of the parties.
PN3758
The agreement itself contemplates in subparagraph c, that those targets will not be met or may not be met?---Yes.
PN3759
You'd agree, wouldn't you, Mr McGhie, that it would be impossible to achieve 100 per cent meal break within the window of opportunity given the nature of paramedic work. Did you take issue with that?---I don't think we were trying to achieve 100 per cent. We were only trying to achieve 80 per cent in the first 12 months.
PN3760
You know that that target has sometimes been achieved and sometimes not?
---That target, if it's been achieved, probably once or twice in recent, you know, in recent months, that over the last 3 years it's
hardly ever been achieved. I think it's once or twice.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3761
Do you know what the level of achievement of that meal break during a window of opportunity at the moment?---I have no up to date figures provided by MAS, but my guestimation - and that's all it is - would be around about 60 odd per cent.
PN3762
You know that Mr Rogers says that the latest payroll data indicates that it's about 77.6 per cent. Are you in any position to disagree with that?---No, I'm not. Not at the moment I'm not, no.
PN3763
This is going to be a very movable figure isn't it, Mr McGhie, given the nature of work and the other factors that might influence
the achievement of that target?
---Yes, yes it is.
PN3764
I just direct your attention to subparagraph c which we were talking about a moment ago?---Small c?
PN3765
Yes. And I suggested to you that that contemplated the targets not being met, and that the parties would then do certain things as a result of that situation arising. Do you know what action has been taken under that clause to deal with the situation as it's arisen as you've described to the Commission?---Are you talking about subparagraph d now?
PN3766
No, subparagraph c, have the parties jointly considered whether the targets have been met, for instance?---The parties have jointly considered that, and I've raised with the ambulance service with MAS that they haven't been met, and I've suggested that they need to put on more resources. That was detailed in a letter and that was our last meeting that I had with MAS several months ago.
PN3767
So it's a question of employ more people?---Yeah. Well, there are other factors, not just employ more people. There was issues of offices being issued code 3s in windows of opportunity, and that needed to be addressed. There was issues of some code 2s as detailed in the crib meal break strategy in this clause, where a patient is in the attendance of someone medically qualified, suitably medically qualified, that those cases wouldn't be dispatched within the window of opportunity, and some of those issues needed to be addressed also.
PN3768
You know that both of the ambulance services have put in place what is described as a meal break strategy?---Yes.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3769
Mr Eke, in his statement, details what he describes as the strategies that have been put in place by MAS, have you read those?---Yes, I've read Mr Eke's, yes.
PN3770
He goes there to say that:
PN3771
MICA reserves have been deployed in the single responder MICA vehicle.
PN3772
?---That's right, for the first time in four years, that's right. But not every month and not every week, it's only when they have a spare MICA person available or they put someone on overtime.
PN3773
All right.
PN3774
A full time administrative assistant has been employed to assist the DTMs with meal break management.
PN3775
?---That's correct.
PN3776
That's happened?---Yes.
PN3777
Then:
PN3778
Another step MAS has taken us to allocate an additional 50 hours per week for the DTMs to be rostered to assist with meal break management.
PN3779
?---That's correct.
PN3780
That's happened?---That's because it was such a big problem, that's right.
PN3781
But something has been done about it:
PN3782
The DTM roster previously included some 10 hour shifts on the on road reserve roster, and they've been changed to roster the DTMs in the control room to assist with meal break management.
PN3783
?---Well, that's the 50 hours that you're talking about.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3784
It's not correct to say, is it, that certainly with respect to MAS they've sat on their hands and done nothing about this issue, from the time that the agreement was reached?---Well, I don't think I've ever said I've sat on my hands and done nothing. What I've said is that I don't think they've done enough and we've recognised that they haven't done enough and I've suggested what from the union what we believe needed to be done.
PN3785
You produced in your statement some figures which you say demonstrate that the meal break issue is still a very real problem. That's essentially what you're saying, isn't it?---Yes.
PN3786
Would you have a look at exhibit 37 to your statement?---I might need you to show me that exhibit because my numbering is inaccurate.
PN3787
Well, it's headed, "RAV, very late meals and spoilt meals by year?---Okay. Yes.
PN3788
Have you got that?---Yes, I have.
PN3789
Underneath the heading it says, "From tab 3, RAV, volume 1"?---Mm mm.
PN3790
How have you extracted these figures, Mr McGhie?---This was a document that RAV provided for us.
PN3791
You say that this discloses, do you, an increasing problem at RAV?---Yes, actually when we saw these - when we extracted these figures actually the problem was even worse than what the union thought it was.
PN3792
If you go to 2004, I appreciate that's only to October?---Yeah.
PN3793
You would have to see, wouldn't you, a substantial increase in those figures over the remaining portion of that year - - - ?---Yes.
PN3794
- - - to get anywhere near to the figures you've got there for 2001/ 2002, wouldn't you?---Well - - -
PN3795
Project those out?---Yeah.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3796
They come in at something considerable less, I would suggest to you than the 2001/2002 figures?---Well, 2004 figures to October I assume would have been from July.
PN3797
Are you counting this by financial year?---Well, that's - because that would - - -
PN3798
Is that the way you look at it?---It would be done from the payroll records is my understanding and that would be done on - based on a financial year.
PN3799
The next exhibit I wanted to take you to was - can you have a look at SMC38 which is the next exhibit in that group?---Is that the daily branch status clock?
PN3800
Yes. How did these documents come to be prepared, Mr McGhie?---These are documents that have been formulated by some of our members and they were to be faxed to the union on a daily basis or a weekly basis from branch stations. This is within MAS only.
PN3801
Yes, they have been filled in by some of your members but it is the form that was decisioned by the union to collect this information or some other person formulated it?---No, I think some other person formulated it. I don't think the union actually formulated this form. I think it might have been one of our representatives - one of our delegates but I don't believe we formulated it.
PN3802
This information was then sent by a facsimile into the union?---That's right.
PN3803
From all MAS branches?---No.
PN3804
Covering all shifts?---Well, it was sent to all branches.
PN3805
Yes?---And the branches that were having - the offices that were having some concerns would fill in these documents and fax them back to the union.
PN3806
This doesn't purport to be a status log covering all MAS branches over all shifts for a particular period of time, does it?---This is not - no.
PN3807
No?---This is not all of the evidence of meal break issues.
PN3808
No, it's the reports you've received from some members?---That's right.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3809
At some branches over some period of time?---Over some months I think, yes.
PN3810
If I could ask you to turn to exhibit 39. This is, you say, copies of complaints about spoilt or late meal breaks sent to the union from members?---That's right, yes.
PN3811
Is there anything in there, Mr McGhie, that's later than May 2003? I can't find anything that was. Perhaps you could assist if you know of any more recent complaints about this issue that your members have sent into the union?---Well, the status blocks for one. Obviously they're later than May 2003.
PN3812
Yes?---I can't recall any other information at this stage.
PN3813
Similarly, the documents that you produced at exhibit number 40 relate to that period between 15 and 19 July 2002. Do you see at paragraph 253 of your statement you've looked at the window of opportunity data that was supplied to you for 15 and 19 July 2002?---Yes.
PN3814
You've extracted that data SM40?---SM40 is that the document that's got meals taken within the window of opportunities, the graphs?
PN3815
Yes?---My understanding is that's an MAS document.
PN3816
That's right. There is a lot that's happened since then I would suggest to you, Mr McGhie, that has significantly diminished the issue of meal breaks and access to meal breaks for paramedics, as a problem. I don't suppose you'd agree with that?---No, I don't agree. In some areas it might have diminished them but not significantly.
PN3817
You say in paragraph 254 that as far as you can work out there was 3 days in January to November 2004 where 80 per cent of the crews
got their meal breaks, and you then go on to extract, at exhibit 41, some further documents which show the number that's taken from
the DTM logs, is it? If you have a look at SM 341?
---That's right
PN3818
You know that Mr Rogers takes issue with the way that you've analysed SM41. Do you recollect what he says about that in his statement?---I know he takes issue, I just can't remember exactly what he says.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3819
It's at paragraph 130 of Mr Rogers statement?---I don't have that statement.
PN3820
I'll read what he says, and if you can perhaps then comment on it. Mr McGhie refers to SM 41, which is a compilation of duty team manager data. Mr McGhie states that:
PN3821
A high percentage and relatively high percentage of crews are not achieving a meal break at all, or having their meal breaks spoilt. I don't agree, this data is the appropriate way to assess the effectiveness of the meal break strategy.
PN3822
So that's the first point. He goes on to say:
PN3823
The compilation of this data is not always complete.
PN3824
Would you agree with that?---I don't know. I don't know whether the compilation is always complete.
PN3825
It certainly does not cover a full 24 hour period.
PN3826
Any reason to dispute that?---I know initially the data provided didn't cover
24 hour periods but it's my understanding at the meal breaks meetings that MAS were portraying the latest documentation did cover
24 hour periods.
PN3827
What he's referring to is the material that you've extracted at SM 41?---That material is similar to material that's been tabled at meal break meetings.
PN3828
Yes, he's saying the material in SM 41 doesn't cover a full 24 hour period, and he goes on to say:
PN3829
The intent of the data is to assist the DTMs in determining which crews have been less successful, and that the information is also recorded on a Monday to Friday only.
PN3830
Were you aware of that?---Initially, that was what was portrayed to us by MAS, but my understanding again, through the meal break meetings, that they were covering it 7 days a week and collecting the data 7 days a week.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3831
What Mr Rogers is commenting on, Mr McGhie, is the material that you've extracted at SM 41, not what might be happening subsequently to that, but the document that you've extracted, covers Monday to Friday, and not a full 24 hour period. That's what Mr Rogers is saying?---Yeah, well that's not my understanding.
PN3832
Of that particular document?---That's right.
PN3833
So when Mr Rogers says that the document isn't accurate because it omits weekends, afternoon shift and night shift, you disagree with that?---Yes.
PN3834
At paragraph 254, you say that MAS is therefore regularly breaching the clause of the 2001 agreement, and this was admitted by Mr Rogers in your meeting of 12 May 2004, you see that?---Yes.
PN3835
Mr Rogers will say that he did not make any such admission, are you confident in your recollection of that?---I made notes of it so
- - -
You did?---I believe so.
PN3836
Perhaps that's something which you can have a look at. If I could just move quickly to the question of the operation centres within RAV. I might just take you briefly to the situation more generally within RAV, and Mr Gough in his statement at paragraph 170 says:
PN3837
The general practice in RAV is that employees take a meal when they can. The current meal break policy in RAV deems the employees have had a break unless they'd advised otherwise.
PN3838
And he sets out the policy, does that accord with your understanding?---That might be RAV's policy. That I'm not aware, but the meal break policy within the EV says that they're to have a meal break within the earliest time of their window of opportunity.
PN3839
He goes on to say that:
PN3840
There has been no significant increase in the payment of the late or very late meal break allowance in recent times. For example the number of claims in 2003/2004 was less the number of claims in 2002/2003.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3841
You would expect wouldn't you, Mr McGhie that if the access to a meal break was becoming more difficult in RAV, that one would see an increase in those claims, not a decrease?---You would expect that, yeah.
PN3842
Yes, but that's not what those figures disclose, is it?---I think our figures, the figures in the attachment show something different.
PN3843
What Mr Gough says is, for example, the number of claims in 2003/2004 was less than the number of claims in 2002/2003?---That's what Mr Gough says, yes.
PN3844
If we could just turn to the operations centres, the access to meal breaks for people employed in the operation centre has been an issue in RAV, hasn't it?---In RAV and the previous services, previous rules.
PN3845
This has been an issue where you've been involved in trying to come up with a resolution to that particular issue?---I've been involved for a long period of time.
PN3846
You're familiar are you, Mr McGhie, with the OSMA agreement?---Yes.
PN3847
You know that Mr Morris gave some evidence about this matter generally, yesterday or the day before and, I think, told us that you'd be the man to solve a number of our questions in relation to that, so I guess now is your chance?---I can't recall him saying that. I'll get him back for that.
PN3848
He might have said that on a number of occasions, Mr McGhie. I was getting a bit tired of hearing that?---I remember it.
PN3849
You might be anyway. Can I just ask that you be shown exhibit SG 9 which is the exhibit to Mr Gough's statement. I'm not sure that I've got a spare. Have you got that?---I have.
PN3850
This arose out of a problem with the communications centre in Ballarat, which was brought to the Commission, you were involved in the Commission proceedings and the negotiation of this agreement?---Yes.
PN3851
You know that it is the position of RAV that all aspects of this agreement have been implemented?---I know that's the position of RAV, yes.
PN3852
Do you take issue with that?---I'll just have to read it.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3853
Please, take your time?---I do.
PN3854
You do, yes, and which aspects are those that you say haven't been omitted?---It's my understanding that not all permanent positions have been filled.
PN3855
Where are you reading from there?---It says interview and appoint all vacant permanent positions to occur within 3 months. That's d, 3(d). My understanding is that not all positions have been filled. An example of that is, I've been informed recently that there is three vacant positions at Wangaratta. The provision of clinical training and clinical skills maintenance is not been complied with, and I've had a recent complaint from a member again out at Wangaratta common room for that very reason.
PN3856
Yes, at Wangaratta?---Yes.
PN3857
Anything else?---Just a moment, I'll just read the second part. I know that there was great discussion about the fade index yesterday, or the fade tool or whatever we wish to call it. I'm not aware of whether RAV's purchased the fade or not. I know that they have submitted some rosters to fade and they've given us some documentation in relation - given myself some documentation in relation to it. But I'm not aware that they have run all of the rosters through the fade program.
PN3858
So what are you saying about that, that's not complied with, or pretty much complied with, or you don't know.?---I would say in part. Call taker issues are still not resolved in Ballarat.
PN3859
MS MacLEAN: Yes?---And that's probably it.
PN3860
Mr McGhie, you were a member of the working party that was established to facilitate the implementation of this agreement, weren't you?---That's right.
PN3861
With Mr Kennedy?---That's right.
PN3862
From RAV, who was the manager of operations and planning - operation centres I should say and planning?---That's right.
PN3863
And Ms Forbath who was with you on that Committee?---Yes.
PN3864
With a number of union members from various RAV locations who were communications officers, as I understand it. Is that right?---Communications staff, yes.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3865
And there was a Ms Beatty, who was a Ballarat call taker?---Correct.
PN3866
Also on that, and you know, don't you that FADE software was purchased by RAV and that the rosters were run through it?---I know some rosters were run through it, but I don't know that the FADE software was purchased.
PN3867
Well, somehow or another, RAV ran the rosters through FADE, didn't they?---I only know - I think that they were out-rostered. I don't know about others.
PN3868
And Bendigo?---I can't recall that, but it may be so.
PN3869
That the outcome of that was that the staff were keen to remain on the 10, 14 roster?---Well, 8, 10, 14 roster but not a true 10, 14 roster as in what has been portrayed in the Commission - 2 days, 2 nights. It's a variance of that. They worked 10, 14 shifts, but it's a variance of you know, 2 days and 2 nights. It's - - -
PN3870
You know, don't you, that that was their preference to remain on that shift structure?---Yes, it was also their preference in Ballarat to go back to a 38 hour week which varied the roster. The true 10, 14 roster is a 42 hour week.
PN3871
Yes, I understand that. What I'm putting to you is that the preference of the staff, despite what FADE might have shown about the
perfection or otherwise of the roster, was to remain on the roster that they had previously been working on?
---Definitely. It's not the same - can I say - it's not the same roster. It's the same shift configuration. It's not the same
roster.
PN3872
Same hours of work for the employees?---No, less.
PN3873
With respect to meal breaks generally, you would accept, wouldn't you that even if a meal break is not taken within the window of opportunity as established in the enterprise agreement, that doesn't mean that a paramedic does not have access to a meal, does it?---It can in some circumstances, because it depends on how busy their shift is.
PN3874
But it doesn't mean that there will be a period go by of a whole shift where they cannot have access to a meal?---That has occurred.
PN3875
It doesn't necessarily follow that that could be the case?---No, no, but that has occurred, where a shift has gone by and paramedics have not had meal breaks.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3876
What I'm putting to you, Mr McGhie, is that even if the window of opportunity comes and goes, that does not of itself mean that a paramedic will not have access to a meal at any other time during the shift?---No.
PN3877
Nor does it mean that they won't have access to a period of rest at any other time in their shift?---That's dependent on workload.
PN3878
Of course. If we could turn to the next aspect. The other aspect that the union claim here is not only for the employment of additional paramedics to cover meal breaks, but it's also for an increase in the spoilt meal allowance, isn't it?---That's right. Spoilt meal allowance or late meal allowance? Spoilt meal allowance is the same. It's still at $7.25. It's the late meal allowance that we're making a claim for.
PN3879
What the union claim at paragraph 259 of your statement, Mr McGhie, and if this is not the case, you can correct me. What the union claim seeks to achieve is the payment of a spoilt meal allowance on each occasion when an employee is called to duty during their meal break. How do you envisage that operating?---It's simple. Every time they have a spoilt meal within their shift, they claim the allowance. But the allowance is worth $7.25 and ambulance paramedics in various roles are interrupted during their meal breaks and at the moment, we only have an allocation of one spoilt meal allowance per shift. Yet, in some shifts that are greater than 10 hours, they have two meal breaks, but you don't even get the opportunity, if you do have two spoilt meals to receive an allowance for both the spoilt meals. So that's how it would apply. Every time their meal is spoilt - being interrupted during a case - they would claim that allowance.
PN3880
Is that a payment for every interruption or a payment for every interruption during a meal break?---Not every interruption. It has in a case.
PN3881
That's designed is it to provide a financial incentive for the ambulance services to achieve the targets that you seek to impose through the award. Is that the position there?---Well, it's a penalty.
PN3882
On the employer?---It's a penalty, yes, on the employer, but if meal breaks are provided, it's not a penalty.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3883
It's of no assistance to your members in achieving their meal breaks, is it?---It may be, given the penalty. It may be depending on, you know, the accumulation of that penalty for the service. The service might realise that it's a costly exercise.
PN3884
I'll just take you finally on this issue to SM42. You say that there are complaints made to the union regarding employees not receiving meal breaks and having to go home ill?---Yes, that's right.
PN3885
Is there anything here for the year 2004, Mr McGhie?---Well, there's an incident report there, dated November 1, 2004 with a Moonee Ponds officer.
PN3886
And one that goes back to 2002. This is from Mr Car. That's the first one?
---That's right.
PN3887
Then there's one for 2004. Perhaps you had been given - - - ?---Well, an incident report from a Moonee Ponds officer. It's after the - - -
PN3888
This is from Mr Dowling?---Dowling, that's right.
PN3889
Is this all the complaints the union has received in relation to that fairly extreme action of leaving duty because the person is unwell?---It's not all complaints, but it's the document of complaints that I could come by.
PN3890
The ones that are in writing?---Yes.
PN3891
Perhaps then if we could turn to the next aspect of your claim which starts at paragraph 272. This is the claim in relation to alternative duties?---Right.
PN3892
You say there that what the union is seeking to achieve is for employees to have the option of transferring to alternative duties with salary maintenance, I should say, in circumstances including after 20 years service, when pregnant or when sick or injured. Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN3893
For employees who are pregnant, there is already in the maternity leave provisions a scheme for transfer to alternative duties, is there not?---I'm aware of that.
PN3894
With respect to sick or injured employees, a similar regime applies, doesn't it? They return to work on a rehabilitation plan or something of that nature and are compromised and alternate duties would be formulated?---No.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3895
No?---It is for injured employees that have been injured within their work. Outside of work, it's a bit of hit and miss that some employees might get an opportunity to get alternative duties but recently there's been a number of MAS employees that have been rejected for alternative duties, returning from sickness.
PN3896
So what you're really referring to is a non-WorkCover sickness or injury?---Well, there's a - - -
PN3897
Where alternative duties might be sought?---Well, in the WorkCover situation, we still have to negotiate on an individual basis over whether someone is transferred to an alternative duty. But sick and injured can be outside of work.
PN3898
You want the basis of this claim, is to have the employee have the ability to demand alternative duties in a circumstance such as that without any ability of the employer to agree or disagree with that?---No, I think - I think what we want to have is the right to negotiate that for an employee. I don't think that ever there has been a demand of alternative duties by someone without a negotiation between the parties.
PN3899
That may have been the case in the past but isn't the award provision that you are seeking such that the employee will have the ability to demand alternative duties and the employer must grant that demand?---That's a way for it, yes.
PN3900
Is it proposed as part of that claim, Mr McGhie, for the union to have specified in the award what those alternative duties might be?---Well, I don't think we can because it depends on the individual skills and their injuries or sickness or whatever the circumstances are, and we may have a range of duties within the award that may not be suited to that particular employer and that's why I say in my experiences that the parties have always negotiated those, in our case.
PN3901
The parties will continue to negotiate those outcomes with or without an award for those won't they?---Generally around work cover, not around sick or injury.
PN3902
What you want to achieve though, Mr McGhie, is for the employer to have no right to refuse the request for alternative duties, isn't
that the union's position?
---No, I don't believe so. I think what our position is that what we want for our members is that given that they've been loyal employees
of the ambulance services and provided services to the community that if for some reason they're injured or sick or - and as you
have said we can - if someone was pregnant well, it's already provided for, or if someone has worked for 20 years and can no longer
do shift work or night shift that there are alternatives within our industry and we would like to see that those alternatives are
provided to those employees.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3903
What's the impediment to negotiating those alternatives now? What's the basis for the claim for an award prescription of this kind?---Because I think the job now is far more demanding than what it ever has been and I think we've got a work force in both services that there are a number of people in those areas that in the not too distant future may require alternative duties. I think that's been recognised by the services also and I've had some minor discussions on that in certain areas of the state.
PN3904
So do you say that there are these alternative duties waiting to be filled, there are jobs waiting for those people to move into?---No, I'm not saying that at all, at this stage, no.
PN3905
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: How do you envisage that the services would comply with the obligation if the Bench were to impose it?---We made some suggestions in the EB negotiations in regard to potentially setting up stretcher transport areas. There have been, in the past, patient transport areas, offices created and positions created. There is the opportunity that some of the - - -
PN3906
So new positions?---Yes.
PN3907
Rather the MET new positions?---Yes. There's been the opportunity that in some areas that some ambulance paramedics have gone from on road duties into communications duties for reasons of sickness or injury or - so that there are some positions within the service and there is some potential there for positions to be created.
PN3908
MS MacLEAN: This would be for any particular period, Mr McGhie, do you have a view on how long these alternative duties might be
worked or is it a sort of retirement plan, pre-retirement plan? That sounds like what you've got in mind?
---I think it depends on the individuals in regard to the longevity of - for the time within that role. But obviously if it's due
to sickness or injury and that's the long term sickness or injury one would assume it's for the rest of their career. Obviously
with the pregnancy situation that's different but that wouldn't be for the rest of their career unless they - - -
PN3909
Thankfully not, Mr McGhie?---Unless they continued to have children, time after time. So I think it just varies from individuals circumstances.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3910
You say of course that that would be with full salary maintenance no matter what the work the person was doing in their alternative position?---That's right.
PN3911
Perhaps then if we could turn to workplace standards and I understand that the claim here, Mr McGhie, is for the provision of a range
of facilities and change rooms, et cetera, that the union feel that the services are not presently provided?
---That's correct.
PN3912
That you want those facilities prescribed in the award in some detail?---That's correct.
PN3913
You know that Mr Patrick at paragraph 151 of his statement essentially says that all of the concerns that you've raised are being dealt with by MAS and that there is no justification for the unions concerned?---Well, I disagree with that.
PN3914
You say, do you, that there are stations where inappropriate facilities are provided for employees?---Definitely - definitely.
PN3915
What the union regards as inappropriate are the lack of separate facilities for men and women to shower, change, et cetera?---That's right.
PN3916
You don't accept that a locking shower or bathroom or something of that nature is an adequate position to allow privacy for both male
and female employees?
---Well, we have an agreement where it says that separate showers and toilets and locker rooms would be provided and that's what we
expect.
PN3917
The agreement you say at the moment says that separate facilities will be provided?---Well, there's a debate on whether it says separate or not. It says, "Ensures privacy for male and female employees" and that matter has been before the Commission before Commissioner Gay.
PN3918
You say that the facilities which ought to be provided are separate male and female bathrooms, showers, locker rooms, et cetera?---Correct.
PN3919
And the services say that they are providing more than adequate facilities by providing areas where employees, male or female, can have privacy and security in lockers and that sort of thing. You understand what their position is?---I know that's their position. I disagree with it.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3920
You said before that there was a debate about whether the agreement says separate or not, does it, or doesn't it?---It says:
PN3921
Ensures privacy for male and female employees.
PN3922
But it doesn't say separate?---No.
PN3923
In the award prescription that you seek from the Commission in this proceeding there will be no doubt on that one, it will require separate?---That's right.
PN3924
You appreciate that that will put the services to considerable cost to provide separate male and female toilets, lockers, et cetera?---It will increase their costs, yes.
PN3925
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Have you received complaints about this?---Yes.
PN3926
What's the nature of the complaints?---Well, we've had a number of disputes and I think we've had two matters here before the Commission and it was to do with the lack of privacy and things like that, female - female employees. I think we've had disputes in regard to one here with RAV and one with MAS.
PN3927
Do you understand there will be a privacy problem if there is a single toilet that's capable of being locked and doesn't have transparent glass in it so the door can't be seen through. Is there a problem in those circumstances?---No, there's no problem..
PN3928
In terms of privacy?---No, not in regard to you know, an appropriate door and an appropriate lock. The toilet - there is in many workplaces only one locker room, and generally speaking, the showers and the toilet facilities run off that locker room, and there's only one, you know, in a lot of workplaces, only one facility provided. Yet there may be the situation where the ambulance paramedics need to use those facilities at the same time, unfortunately. That's what's caused some concern. Also females, we had a petition, I think, down in the Torquay area, which brought the dispute from RAV to this Commission, a petition by female officers with concerns about the lack of facilities in regard to the provision for females.
PN3929
Was that in relation to the lack of facilities, or the lack of separate facilities?
---Separate facilities.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3930
I think we might then turn to the call out parts of the union's claim. The call out relates only to the rural ambulance service, and for the peripheral stations, as they're described, that operate by MAS?---Call out refers to rural ambulance. It has significant number of branches that are on call branches, and in RAV there are nine virtual branches, but it's also my understanding that some of the clinical support officers can be called out.
PN3931
The union claim firstly was for an increase to the minimum payment for a call out?---Correct.
PN3932
From the current 1 and a half hours to double to 4 hours of double time?---That's correct.
PN3933
And for the call out payment not to be in lieu of any other payment to be made for that period of work?---That's correct.
PN3934
The basis for that fund you say is to bring it into line with other call out provisions?---I don't know which other call out provisions you're talking about.
PN3935
You say in paragraph 294 of your statement, that the claim for an increase in the minimum call out payment, arises from members advising that the 1 and a half hours is not enough, virtually?---Mm.
PN3936
The four hours was decided upon to bring it into line with the minimum provisions for recalls to duty and recalls from stand by?---Mm mm.
PN3937
That's within your award?---That's right.
PN3938
Is that what you're referring to there, not with other industries?---That's right.
PN3939
That would, I think, you'd agree represent a significant cost to the ambulance services to facilitate that increase?---Yes, there'd be an increase.
PN3940
Is that again a penalty to encourage them to utilise their resources in a manner more consistent with the union's preferences?---It's obviously a penalty, but it's an issue that has been raised by on call officers due to the now major inconvenience of the increase in call outs at some work places.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3941
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT WATSON: Mr McGhie, I'm confused by your evidence in paragraph 293 where you refer to a long history of disputation concerning on call issues. An application to the Federal Court in 1996 and 97, and an interpretation and since then many pay disputes, grievance issues regarding on call?---That's right.
PN3942
Could you just explain that to me a bit more. There was a Federal Court matter determined. Did the result cause the disputes or - it's not a real clear way how all that works together?---What happened was the rural services took the union to the Federal Court on a number of on call issues and sought an interpretation on a range of issues. Justice Northrock made a decision, but out of that decision it appeared that the rural ambulance services had a different interpretation to the decision in what the union did, because the way that they paid some of the on call claims, or the call out claims was different to how the union saw it. I'll give you an example. We have call outs that run into the start of the rostered shift. Call outs at that time was paid at an hour and a half at double time. If the call out overlapped the rostered shift the ambulance service would cease paying the total call out for an hour and a half, and deemed double time to be single time plus the ordinary time. The union's interpretation was that the call out should have been paid for the period that was claimed in the EB, which was the full hour and a half regardless of it overlapping this year. Of course the services position was that they don't pay triple time, and yet we highlighted examples of where they do pay triple time. If someone had finished five minutes before the shift they would have got the full hour and a half or the double time, and then still got their ordinary rostered pay, ordinary pay.
PN3943
So the dispute shifted from the interpretation of the agreement to the interpretation of his Honour's decision, or judgment?---That's right.
PN3944
How does the claim address that dispute as to interpretation of Justice Northrock's decision?---It addresses it from the point of view that what we're claiming is basically our interpretation that the call out is paid for the hour and a half regardless of the overlap of the shift, which would mean it's not in lieu of their ordinary hour's pay. So they get their double time for the call out plus their ordinary hour's pay for that component where the call out runs into the shift. I don't know if that makes sense.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3945
Yes, I understand it, and the position of the services in the ..... arbitration is to maintain the interpretation they'd apply to his Honour's decision?---That's my understanding, yes.
PN3946
MS MacLEAN: Mr McGhie, you say that call out is increasing, I think you said the frequency of call out is increasing in the rural ambulance service, did you say that?---In some workplaces, yes..
PN3947
It's not increasing across the board is it?---No, well there'd be different trends in different areas due to a range of reasons, but it's certainly increasing in a, I would say, significant number of workplaces.
PN3948
So you would agree, wouldn't you that there will be some paramedics who have experienced little or no change in the frequency during which they've been called out?---I'd be very surprised that there'd be some paramedics that haven't experienced any change.
PN3949
Some might have achieved little change?---There might be some. It would be a very small number.
PN3950
Your justification for the increase in the allowance though, in the call out payment, which you've agreed will constitute a cost to the services?---That's right.
PN3951
Is that the frequency of call out is something that, as far as you're concerned is increasing, and your members are becoming increasingly
inconvenienced by it?
---That's correct.
PN3952
You know that Mr Gough in his statement, at paragraph 275 says that he doesn't agree with your proposition, but you say that the increase in the minimum payment will highlight the cost of on call and call out, as opposed to 24 hour staffing?---That's right.
PN3953
What he says is the payment of a minimum payment to employees who respond to a call during a period of on call will not identify whether the employee in fact worked half an hour or four hours, would you agree with that?---Well it's on the time card of how long they work, and it's on the duty logs, I assume within the control room, of how long they've worked.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3954
But the payment is not dependent on time worked. Four hours is paid for
5 minutes or for four hours, isn't it?---As is the hour and a half.
PN3955
Yes, but it's not going to have any impact on the actual inconvenience to your members, is it in that sense? It's going to increase the payment that they received, but it may have no effect at all on their actual workload, which you say is their concern?---No, it may in some workplaces, because it may be that on that basis, that some of those workplaces, due to the irregularity of their call outs. It may be determined that it's better that they become a 24 hour branch.
PN3956
And that would involve rostering more people over 24 hours at that particular branch?---That's correct.
PN3957
That's what this claim is really all about, isn't it?---Partially.
PN3958
Mr Gough says this in relation to that particular aspect of the claim:
PN3959
In my view, there is no justification to making the on call resource model so expensive that is unsustainable. As I've previously stated on call is the most appropriate and most affordable ambulance service delivery model in many rural locations.
PN3960
Do you take issue with that?---My response to that is a very cheap way to run an ambulance service is on call after hours.
PN3961
It's an appropriate method to deliver services in remote rural communities, isn't it?---But we're not just talking about remote here.
PN3962
No, but do you disagree - - -?---We're talking about some major regional centres, and, you know, on call stretches far and wide. We have places like Shepparton and Warnambool and Mildura that still have on call attached to their roster.
PN3963
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: What about places like Heathcote and Woodend?---Heathcote and Woodend have on call.
PN3964
Yes, but that's appropriate for places like that?---Well, I can't say about Heathcote. I'm not sure of their workload, but I know that the Woodend and that area, that corridor along the southern corner of the area is becoming increasingly busier, and it's been a problem area for some time.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3965
MS MacLEAN: But your claim, Mr McGhie, is not confined to the busier rural centres as you describe them. It's an across-the-board claim which all paramedics within the Rural Ambulance Service will receive?---That's correct.
PN3966
Whether they're called out once a month or three or four times a month?---That's correct.
PN3967
Yes?---Can I qualify that?
PN3968
The qualification would be that that's your claim?---No, I'm just going to say that - - -
PN3969
Is that your claim or not?---That's correct but if we don't have the on-call rates the same in all workplaces at on-call branches, you'll never attract people to go and work at the more remote branches.
PN3970
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT WATSON: Miss MacLean, if we can go back to paragraph 293?
PN3971
MS MacLEAN: Yes, your Honour.
PN3972
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT WATSON: Could you help to advise me whether the RAV proposed award clarifies the effect of on-call to reflect the interpretation that's ..... otherwise there's a potential of leaving open a continuing dispute.
PN3973
MS MacLEAN: I won't make any comment on the preference for doing that. But as I understand it the proposal that the Rural Ambulance Service advances maintains the present payment system for the payment of on call, that is as Mr McGhie described it, that there is a payment made but not - a payment made at single time rates if it's continuously the shift. So if a person starts their shift, the on-call payment, the remainder of that is paid - I think it is incidental overtime, as I understand it. I'll clarify that.
PN3974
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT WATSON: Yes, it might be a matter for later submission to ensure any provision of either side in determining the - - -
PN3975
MS MacLEAN: I'm sure the last thing anyone wants to do is leave further areas for disputation.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3976
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT WATSON: Well, I'm sure Vice President Lawler is the relevant panel - I think he would concur with that.
PN3977
MS MacLEAN: Indeed. Now, Mr McGhie, if we might turn to recall from rest breaks, which commences at paragraph 297 of your statement. The union claim is for a prohibition on an employee being recalled from a rest break?---Correct.
PN3978
That prohibition is to apply regardless of the circumstances, as I understand the claim?---I think we've always qualified our position in regard to disclam - that in any disclam situation these types of provisions would - - -
PN3979
Yes, I understand that. Absent disclam being put into effect, the prohibition on the recall of paramedics from the rest break would be absolute?---That's right.
PN3980
Do you agree Mr McGhie, that in a remote rural location, the inability to recall the nearest paramedic from a rest break, could lead to very severe consequences for service delivery to that person who was needing a paramedic attendance?---I only agree with that on the basis that the ambulance service has not made provision to cover for that person on a rest break.
PN3981
How do you envisage that that coverage would then provide it in a remote rural location we were just discussing?---Well, all the remote rural locations in Victoria are within a net - within an area and there are other branch stations and major regional branch stations, what used to be deemed the headquarters branch stations. And generally they used to have enough resources to go and cover for those smaller branches and at the moment it doesn't appear that the ambulance service is - in RAV - provides for coverage of those smaller branches from the major centres.
PN3982
Again, this is employ more people is the answer here?---Well, it's certainly to put the appropriate resource levels in at the major centres to cover for the smaller branches.
PN3983
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: That means employing more people, doesn't it?
---Yes, yes.
PN3984
You strip away the ..... ?---Yes.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3985
MS MacLEAN: And it would involve a situation where a paramedic response would be dispatched from the centres as you've just described,
which may be some distance from the scene requiring the response. Do you agree with that?
---No, not necessarily, no.
PN3986
Could be?---No, not necessarily. What would happen is that the officers would commence their rest break at whatever time during the course of the night or into the morning and the control room or the op centre would know about that and they would make arrangements to have resources available for the start of this year. And those people would move out to that location.
PN3987
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT WATSON: Is the recall restricted in any way when people are on a rest break for code 1s or is it open-ended?---At the moment?
PN3988
Yes?---At the moment, they can be recalled for emergency work which is with code 1s and code 2s.
PN3989
What do you understand occurs in practice?---That's what I believe does happen for code 1s and code 2s, that they are recalled from rest periods, not in all locations but in quite a number of locations.
PN3990
Yes, but each location would need to be what, in terms of additional resources? For example, in RAV, at the remote stations, what would it require? Additional ..... in place of - - - ?---I think in RAV's evidence, they have referred to something like 60 on call branches, but not all those on call branches would be the ones that we're talking about in remote areas.
PN3991
What sort of resources do you think we're talking about to cover the absence of recall from rest breaks?---I would say probably 30, 40 ambulance paramedics.
PN3992
Metropolitan Ambulance Services or just RAV?---No, no, it's not an issue in MAS.
PN3993
MS MacLEAN: Mr McGhie, would you agree that the operation centres within RAV have - - -
PN3994
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Miss MacLean, just before you go on - - -
PN3995
MS MacLEAN: Sorry.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN3996
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Can I just ask a further question just on this topic. In a practical sense, let's assume a situation where
a particular paramedic has had a very hard and stressful shift - it's been a very long shift and then they've had call-outs and they
regard themselves - they feel that they're genuinely fatigued to the point where it's going to be dangerous for them to be doing
anything, yes. But presumably it's open to that paramedic to ring up the nearest - I'm talking about a rural - a small, rural branch
- to ring up the nearest major centre and say to the operations controller there, "Look, I'm just completely pushed. I really
do need to have 5 or 6 hours sleep now, but I'm on call-out. Can you send someone down for the 5 or 6 hours?" Does that ever
happen?
---Ambulance paramedics will inform the op centre of being fatigued, yes. But I don't know they can request someone being sent
down. That's left to someone within the op centre, like in conjunction - - -
PN3997
But it does happen that the op centre will send someone out to cover for a period to enable the fatigued paramedic to get uninterrupted sleep?---It can happen, yes.
PN3998
Yes, thank you. Thanks, Miss MacLean?
PN3999
MS MacLEAN: Thank you.
PN4000
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT WATSON: There's a provision for preventing recall and having a rest break for ..... and you might put on
additional crews and you're still on particular nights and days, if you find a situation where there is a requirement that the service
provide additional ambulance it may still require recall of someone during a rest break. I mean it's just the nature of the service?
---Yes, what it does do is in providing the extra resources, it stops the opportunity of that person being recalled from the rest
period, because you've got the resource in the location. If you've allocated those - - -
PN4001
It would reduce it but it wouldn't necessarily stop it?---It won't eliminate it completely, no.
PN4002
But what you're seeking, not other than a disclam is it, total prohibition on recall in those circumstances?---That's right.
PN4003
Whereas in fact what you're really seeking is additional resources?---Well, it's additional resources to try and eliminate that issue of being recalled from the rest break and I said - - -
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN4004
But the claim is in terms of prohibition on recall?---Yes.
PN4005
And if we extend it to that claim, that would be the legal effect?---Yes.
PN4006
Yes, very well.
PN4007
MS MacLEAN: Mr McGhie, would you agree that the operation centres in RAV have procedures in place to ensure that recalling someone from a rest break is done as a last resort? Would you take issue with that?---I'm not aware of the operational procedure in the op centres. I don't think I've ever seen them.
PN4008
You say at paragraph 298 that recall from a rest break is by mutual agreement?
---Yes.
PN4009
The employee agrees to be called out?---I think that recall there by mutual agreement is a general reference to recall.
PN4010
The next aspect of the claim I would like to ask you some questions about is the provision of a meal break and a meal allowance in respect of on-call periods so that when a paramedic is on call, they often go home, take the ambulance with them, don't they?---That's right. That's what - - -
PN4011
So the paramedic in their own home you would envisage would have the window of opportunity for a meal break?---Well, we would hope that, yes.
PN4012
And be paid a meal allowance if while they were at home, they didn't take the meal within that window of opportunity. Is that how
you see this operating?
---Well, it's not a matter of them choosing not to take it within the window of opportunity, it's the window of opportunity would
be allocated as it is within the shift.
PN4013
Yes?---And they would be expected to take a meal at the earliest time within that window of opportunity.
PN4014
Yes?---Obviously, if they were interrupted due to workload and they didn't get to eat within that window of opportunity, our claim is for an allowance to be paid.
PN4015
And when they're on call, the paramedic is not otherwise on duty?---No, the paramedic is not on duty, no.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN4016
So the window of opportunity would apply so that the person is at home, they might be reading to their children or something of that
nature, watching the tele?
---They might be.
PN4017
They would have access to a meal at any time they so chose. What you seem to impose is the window of opportunity to prescribe the time during which the meal would be taken, otherwise an allowance would be payable. That's the way you see that?---That's correct, yes.
PN4018
How do you envisage that the services would - let me put this to you. So that even if the person had had their dinner, or whatever meal it was, prior of the window of opportunity commencing, you would say that if they were called out during the window of opportunity, an allowance would still be payable?---No. The issue of the window of opportunity in having their dinner prior to - my understanding is that the window of opportunity would be probably negotiated between the parties which would be deemed to be an appropriate time for somewhere to eat after their shift.
PN4019
So you don't see a prescription of a window of opportunity for the on-call run? Is that what you're saying?---Well, there would be - there would be a time frame, I -I assume agreed to between the parties on what would be the most appropriate time in the on-call period for someone to be deemed to be eating their tea.
PN4020
Yes?---And so that - that would be - normally on-call periods go from 1800 hours through to 8'oclock the next morning.
PN4021
Yes?---So we would negotiate what an agreed time frame was for the window of opportunity and they would be expected to eat within that time frame if they're not doing ambulance duty such as call-outs.
PN4022
I understand that. What I was putting to you though, Mr McGhie, is what if the situation arises, matters of family convenience or getting kids to sport or whatever might be happening, that the paramedic chooses because he or she is at home, they're not on duty, they're not responding otherwise, that's when they're on call, what if they choose to have a meal prior to the window of opportunity. They're then called out during the window of opportunity. The allowance is then payable isn't it?---No, we're not expecting anyone to be paid if they've eaten a meal.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN4023
But they wouldn't have eaten it during the window of opportunity?---But they would inform their employer that they've had their meal.
PN4024
And they might not. I am not suggesting that they would do so dishonestly, but that could happen, couldn't it?---Well, they'll inform their employer that they've had a meal.
PN4025
The services have no way of knowing whether that information would be conveyed or not. Do you accept that?---No, I don't.
PN4026
No?---Because there's many communications between ambulance paramedics and the op centre about what they 're doing during their on-call period and I don't think that will alter in regard if they take an early meal.
PN4027
Whether the payment of an allowance was made or not would depend entirely on a verification system at the initiative of the paramedic who would be receiving the allowance?---Whether it's taken?
PN4028
If they've had an early dinner, for instance?---If they - well, they would have to inform the op centre staff, yes.
PN4029
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT WATSON: Mr McGhie, sorry, can I take you back to the rest break. You mentioned at 298 there was a provision in 2001 RAV enterprise agreement for 30 additional effective employees to attempt to deal with the problem of recall from rest breaks. Did that occur?---Yes, 30 - - -
PN4030
What impact did that make?---In the areas that they have been placed, I believe it's had a great impact. One of those areas is the southern call area, Woodend, Colac and Gisborne. They get an additional officer at those branches.
PN4031
Yes. It's that time of day where things start building up in my mind. I just had a concern, frankly. There seems to be a resolution between the parties then by way of additional staffing presumably in periods mutually agreed to be of greater stress. A cynical person might think a claim to completely to preclude recall from rest break might be seen as an ambit claim to lead to negotiations to some other outcomes. Obviously, unless there's evidence to that effect or a concession by the union in this particular claim, I'm bound to take the claim on face value but it again raises in my mind the value of further discussions between the parties.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN4032
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Ms MacLean, due to some unexpected commitments of one member of the bench, we propose to adjourn at quarter to four today but to start at a quarter past nine in the morning as to make up the time in the morning. Is there some difficulty with that so far as the - - -
PN4033
MS MacLEAN: Going by the groans that just came in on both sides, I anticipate there's - not from my point of view, your Honour, no.
PN4034
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Have you any difficulty with a quarter past nine start in the morning?
PN4035
MR FRIEND: No.
PN4036
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Mr Parry?
PN4037
MR PARRY: No, your Honour.
PN4038
MS MacLEAN: Mr McGhie, if we might turn to the question at the optional
38 hour or 40 hour roster?---Yes.
PN4039
The change to the rostering arrangements which you refer to from paragraph 304 of your statement were brought about by agreement with the employees concerned, were they not?---Change to the - sorry?
PN4040
Change to the hours of work as you set out there?---They were - they were changed due to a trial of the new roster, yes.
PN4041
Yes, and that trial was then implemented, the arrangements that were being trialled were implemented?---That roster is continued. That trial has never even been signed off. That roster continues, yes.
PN4042
The employees who work - what is the union claim actually seeking in respect of this particular matter?---Well, the claim we're seeking is that where - where there are branch stations that currently work 38 hours, we are saying that those branch stations should have the option of either choosing to increase their roster to 40 hours or remain on a 38 hour as they currently are. We have - we have some branches within the state, on-call branches within the state. And this mainly pertains to the smaller branches.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN4043
Yes?---We have some that work 40 hours and some that work 38.
PN4044
Do I understand the claim the way you just explained to me that individual employees would have the right to make that choice?---Well generally when it comes down to a roster, it's done at branch level.
PN4045
So the branch would make that choice?---That's right.
PN4046
One would anticipate that that would require what the majority of employees to be in favour of - - - ?---That's correct.
PN4047
- - - change or no change?---At that workplace. Yes.
PN4048
The justification for this particular - do you accept that this is a departure from the rostering arrangements that were trialled,
the hours of work that were trialled?
---No, I don't accept that at all. The trial is - the reason why the trial - the branches went to a 38 hour roster and the trial
was because 50 per cent of the branches were working 40 hours and 50 per cent were working 38. To compare apples with apples it
was agreed between all of those branches trialling that new roster that for the purpose of the trial they would all go to a 38 hour
roster.
PN4049
Yes?---It's remained since then because it's been very difficult for those branches that were previously on 40 hour rosters back to a 40 hour roster because the service won't agree.
PN4050
The employees are agitating, are they, to return to a 40 hour roster?---Definitely in some work places, yes.
PN4051
Not in others?---Well, we have a range of - well, we have some disputes on in RAV at the moment in ..... branches seeking 40 hour rosters.
PN4052
How long ago was it that this, as you describe it, commenced?---It was a matter before the Commission back in the 90 - I think the trial probably started in about '99 so sometime in '99.
PN4053
So the employees who are working a 38 hour week have been doing so for some considerable time?---Some of them. I mean there's been a number of employees that have moved away from those branches and there has been a lot of new employees employed or rosters have changed in regard to - or the numbers of staff have changed in regard to some other - some of those on call branches.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN4054
If the employees chose to return to a 40 hour week that has consequences in terms of the amount of annual leave they receive, does it not?---Well, the additional 2 hours can be utilised either as accrued annual leave or as a single day.
PN4055
So there would be an absence on a particular roster created by the return to a 40 hour week that doesn't exist now?---There's an extra two - if it was accrued annual leave there would be an extra 2 weeks per year, per officer annual leave.
PN4056
That would have to be covered by the services, wouldn't it?---That's correct.
PN4057
By the filling of that annual leave vacancy where they don't have to cover that vacancy now?---That's correct.
PN4058
That would be a cost burden to the services to fill that annual leave vacancy?
---That's correct
PN4059
Has it not, yes?---That's correct.
PN4060
Mr Gough says at paragraph 288 that:
PN4061
RAV cannot afford to implement a 40 hour week at all of its locations. Nor does the case load in such branches necessarily justify a 40 hour week. A 40 hour week means that each paramedic at such branches accrue 2 weeks leave in accrued days off each year in addition to the period of 8 weeks leave they already receive.
PN4062
That's right, isn't it?---That's correct.
PN4063
That's what we've just been talking about?---Yeah.
PN4064
This reduces RAV's resource capacity, increases relief costs and in many cases incurs additional overtime. That's what RAV says about that claim. Do you dispute any of those additional costs that Mr Gough identifies there?---I could dispute them from the point of view that in some areas, depending on the staffing numbers of these branches, some of those branches are self relieving.
PN4065
There is an additional 2 week's leave that would be the direct consequence of this change in hours of work and that would have to be covered, wouldn't it?---Yes. But some of those branches are self relieving. For an example at a five officer branch there's always one officer on annual leave if they were on the 10 week's leave as you've suggested. But that fifth officer keeps - they rotate through but they come back and cover each other's leave. That's why there's five officers rostered to those types of branches.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN4066
In the smaller rural branches there wouldn't be five lots of branches, would there?---There are.
PN4067
There are?---Yes.
PN4068
Some are less than that?---Yes, at some there's only two.
PN4069
It may well be the case that leave in some branches would need to be covered by overtime or other relieving arrangements?---That's right.
PN4070
Which would cost the service more money?---That's right.
PN4071
Your Honour, I'm going to turn to a new matter perhaps that would be a convenience time.
PN4072
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Just one moment. Mr Friend, tomorrow morning, would you be in a position to, it doesn't have to be comprehensive, give an outline of what your claims actually are and there relative order of importance.
PN4073
MR FRIEND: I don't know that I can do that by the morning, your Honour. We will make some efforts.
PN4074
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: I understand that your claim is the draft award.
PN4075
MR FRIEND: ..... clear with one of the documents here that wouldn't worry me since there are a number of matters. That's MFI 3 ..... to paragraph 16 ..... and ..... sets out in summary form what the union seeks. It would seek .....
PN4076
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: What about a relative, pick the eyes out and identify the ones which are the most important ones.
PN4077
MR FRIEND: That's the matter that I might have more difficulty with. It is in respect to Mr McGhie as well as - - -
PN4078
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Mr Morris has lost the position to - - -
PN4079
MR FRIEND: Mr Morris can give me instructions but I don't think he will give me that sort of instruction without consulting with Mr McGhie. It may be, your Honour, that it would be better if we could prepare something very early this week. It would also assist in terms of the conciliation if that is to take place.
**** STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE XXN MS MACLEAN
PN4080
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: That was part of what we had in mind.
PN4081
MR FRIEND: I had that in mind for this ..... too and to forward it to the members of the Bench provided my learned friend consents to that. But obviously we will provide him with a copy as well. But I'd rather not be put in the spot of trying to do it overnight.
PN4082
VICE PRESIDENT LAWLER: Certainly. We will adjourn until 9.15 in the morning.
<ADJOURNED UNTIL FRIDAY, 11 FEBRUARY 2005 [3.44PM]
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs
RODNEY WILLIAM MORRIS, RECALLED ON FORMER OATH PN3179
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PARRY, CONTINUING PN3179
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND PN3267
EXHIBIT #3, BULLETIN OF 6 APRIL 1999 ENTITLED "INTRODUCTION OF MAJOR CHANGES IN MAS, BRIEF BUT REVEALING HISTORY" PN3285
EXHIBIT #4, BULLETIN OF 27 APRIL 1999 ENTITLED, "MAS EMERGENCY OPERATIONS PLAN MEMBERS MEETING" PN3288
EXHIBIT #5, BULLETIN OF 25 JUNE 1999 ENTITLED, "UNLAWFUL INDUSTRIAL ACTION - THE ADA CHALLENGES MAS MANAGERS TO A PUBLIC DEBATE PN3291
EXHIBIT #6, BULLETIN OF 23 JULY 1999 ENTITLED, "MAS INDUSTRIAL ACTION UPDATE" PN3302
EXHIBIT #7 BULLETIN HEADED FIREFIGHTERS AND DOLLARS DATED 09/07/2004 PN3356
EXHIBIT #8 BULLETIN HEADED GOVERNMENT VALUES POLICE AHEAD OF PARAMEDICS DATED 19/07/2004 PN3356
MFI # 6 INCIDENT REPORT BY MR JACKSON PN3437
MFI # 7 EMAIL OF 07/01/2004 PN3437
MFI # 8 HANDWRITTEN NOTE TO MR MORRIS OF 12/06/2004 PN3437
MFI # 9 MEETING NOTES OF MR MORRIS OF 16/03/2004 AND ASSOCIATED TRANSCRIPT PN3437
EXHIBIT #9 SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT DATED 22/10/1999 PN3450
MFI #10 WORKSAFE FIELD REPORT 03/03/2003 AND STAPLED BUNDLE OF PROVISIONAL IMPROVEMENT NOTICES PN3472
EXHIBIT #11 RECOMMENDATION OF 10/12/2004 PN3480
MFI #10 HANDWRITTEN NOTE WITH FACSIMILE TRANSMISSION DATED 19/01/2005 PN3485
EXHIBIT #12 FACSIMILE OF 10/12/2004 FROM MR MORRIS TO COMMISSIONER GAY PN3494
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN3505
EXHIBIT #13 PREVIOUSLY MFI 6 PN3527
EXHIBIT #14 PREVIOUSLY MFI 7 PN3527
EXHIBIT #15 PREVIOUSLY MFI 8 PN3527
EXHIBIT #16 PREVIOUSLY MFI 9 PN3527
EXHIBIT #17 PREVIOUSLY MFI 10 PN3527
MR STEPHEN JOHN MCGHIE, AFFIRMED PN3534
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND PN3534
EXHIBIT #18 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MR MCGHIE PN3549
EXHIBIT #19 SECOND STATEMENT OF MR MCGHIE PN3554
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MACLEAN PN3583
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