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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
1800 534 258
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT KAUFMAN
AG2005/2818
s.170LJ - application for certification of agreement - Silcar Hight Voltage Electrical Services and Workshop Enterprise Agreement 2004-2005
APPLICATION BY SILCAR AND ANOTHER
(AG2005/2818)
MELBOURNE
2.13PM, THURSDAY, 10 FEBRUARY 2005
PN1
MR F PALMER: I continue my appearance, and I appear today with MR B MEARS, the General Manager of Silcar.
PN2
MR D MIGHELL: I appear on behalf of the CEPU, together with MR S McKAY.
PN3
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you. Well, this matter was previously before Senior Deputy President Acton when it seemed as though there may have been some difficulties with this matter, but are there?
PN4
MR PALMER: Your Honour, Senior Deputy President Acton directed us to confer. We say we have done that. We are not sure that we have reached a settlement, but I must apologise, Mr Mighell and I were out in the corridor when you came into court and we were having a discussion. But briefly put for its part at the moment, and it may well be that a continuation of that discussion might be useful, with the Commission's indulgence, but briefly put, Silcar says this. That in September 2004 it was served by the ETU with a bargaining notice, that it enquired of the ETU what that was about, it was told in unequivocal terms that it was about getting an enterprise agreement in place for the division of our business that colloquially is referred to as the Morwell workshop, but is more properly referred to as the High Voltage and Electrical Services Division, and that is headquartered in the LaTrobe Valley.
PN5
It is based on one of the best electrical workshops in Victoria, and it provides services not only in Victoria, but in other states primarily to the power industry at this stage. Silcar, your Honour, employs approximately 1000 people and some 60 or more apprentices, not that those apprentices aren't people, but in addition to the 1000 trades, about 60 to 80 apprentices.
PN6
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I feel clerks weren't people in my day Mr Palmer, so maybe apprentices fall into the same category.
PN7
MR PALMER: Yes, it may well be your Honour, because I recall being a cadet in her Majesty's grey funnel line and I don't think cadets had the status of people.
PN8
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. We have all been through it.
PN9
MR PALMER: Your Honour, we say we properly entered into discussions with the ETU as a result of that bargaining notice. The ETU was, in our view, properly constituted by the elected shop stewards and by an organiser well known to us as the organiser responsible for the area.
PN10
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, that's Mr?
PN11
MR PALMER: Mr Mooney, your Honour. We say that we conducted, I would like to characterise it as negotiations, but they were discussions, because we were asked to sign up to the ETU pattern agreement, commonly referred to, and no doubt well known to your Honour as the blue book, after those discussions and conceding in our discussions with the ETU that, yes, well this was characterised as the contracting arm of our business, we entered into an agreement with the ETU, the usual shaking of hands was done and the matter was duly referred to the workforce and a valid majority of the employees that were to be covered by the agreement voted for its acceptance.
PN12
The union returned to the company, and your Honour would be well aware of the timeframe that we are talking about, the decision of their Honours in the High Court in re Electrolux, came on the scene, and cast some doubt as to what could be considered by the Commission in the certification of those agreements. If I could just again our view is that part VIB of the Act provides for the making of agreements, and then as a separate activity their certification. And that certification gives the capacity for the agreements to be enforced.
PN13
But because of the degree of uncertainty, the industrial parties entered into a memorandum of understanding, which I think your Honour forms part of the file that's before you, together with a copy of the industrial agreement which was drawn, which is the pattern agreement.
PN14
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's the agreement you are seeking to have certified is it?
PN15
MR PALMER: Well, we will come to that your Honour. And her Honour, Senior Deputy President Acton, had a general observation about that, and it's probably the reason why we have the MOU. But your Honour has perused the MOU, that signed by Mr Mooney, the official, from whom we have a high regard, and with whom we have dealt for quite a number of years, it's provided to us under the seal of the ETU, and in good faith, we have accepted that and we have applied the terms and conditions of the pattern agreement to that group of employees from the date of inception, which was 1 October 2004.
PN16
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, give me that date again please?
PN17
MR PALMER: 1October 2004, your Honour, and the notional expiry date is October of this year, 2005. In good faith we have applied the terms and conditions, and I think in good faith the ETU has as well. But we are involved in another discussion with the ETU in respect to the outsourcing of maintenance at the Westernport site of BlueScope Steel, formerly known as BHP Steel, and we are unable to reach an agreement there. The situation in its simplest form is this, that BHP, or BlueScope Steel, have decided in restructuring their business to outsource maintenance. Silcar has been selected as an alliance partner, and at this point in time, Silcar provides the total maintenance facility for that steel mill. All of the maintenance positions, the staff positions, the management supervisors and engineering staff are employees of Silcar.
PN18
The mechanical trades group have moved over from BSL to Silcar under the coverage of an industrial agreement which we have negotiated with the AMWU, and had certified in this Commission. There are some 60 to 70 electricians who are still on BSLs payroll, but work at the direction of the maintenance management group, which, as I say, are comprised of Silcar employees with Silcar working in an alliance partnership with BSL. We have offered to the ETU a proposal for their employment. I point out, as an aside, there is no pressure being exerted whatsoever by Silcar on any electrical employee at BSL, but there is an offer on the table, the terms of which the ETU say fall short of their standards.
PN19
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: This is an offer to?
PN20
MR PALMER: To enter into a certified agreement. The ETU says it falls short of its standard. It meanwhile has been negotiating with the client with BSL in respect to its own work force, and that has had some difficulties, and that matter is before her Honour, Senior Deputy President Acton, who we understand has adjourned the matter earlier this week for some 10 or more days. Now that may well fall, but the choice for the employees and for the ETU on the site is quite simple, stay where we are under the BSL agreement or move across to Silcar.
PN21
We have been unable to settle an agreement with the ETU, and I suppose it's fair to say the backdrop for the ETU is we will sign the pattern agreement, and then we can talk business. Well we have not seen our way clear to do that on that site and we have pretty well exhausted, in terms of an offer, what we can put on the table.
PN22
We have had some meetings with the ETU in recent times, both Mr Mears and I have met with Mr Mighell, and I am very pleased that he is here today because we might be able to make a bit of progress on this. Whilst we have moved around the periphery, we haven't been able to get any closer to settlement. So in the meantime, what has happened, and it is quite clear to us, and we have been gathering the requisite evidence, it's quite clear to us that several things have happened. One, there is a bit of a Mexican stand off down at the BSL with Silcar, two, the ETU have, in a secondary sense, been damaging our business in other places where we say we have certified agreements, and I don't want to say anymore about that at this point.
PN23
We have drawn that to the attention of the union, and the union have dismissed that concern of ours. We won't put together terms in which it was dismissed, but it's a real and genuine threat. We have firstly lost revenue, we are now losing business, we have had to restrict work opportunities and all that can be dealt with, but the saddest part about that is that business that has been drawn back to Victoria, and certainly into the La Trobe Valley, where there is an inordinately high level of unemployment, is now steadily, but surely drifting back from whence it came across the border.
PN24
So, what we are here to do today is to tell you that yesterday the State Secretary of the ETU called a meeting of all employees of Silcar from three sites across the Valley, and as a result of that meeting, time was lost at work and at least a portion of the workforce, I suppose I can characterise it, I will call it a strike, strike for the remainder of the day. Now, we would like that unprotected industrial action not to be repeated. We are here today to make an application to you.
PN25
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Mighell? Just a moment, Mr Palmer.
PN26
MR MIGHELL: I have a lot of time for Mr Palmer. I am just concerned what - the application as I understand before you today is a certification agreement. There has been a lot of ramblings about union action and damage that I take enormous exception to. If he wants to lead evidence to that, wants to seek orders from the Commission then Silcar should do that, but it is to the point of being a little bit outrageous to be going on about these matters. If it's about certification of the agreement that's fine, I take exception to things that are simply not true about any strike action whatsoever, and I will address in my submissions, but, your Honour, is this really about unprotected action or strike action or about the certification agreement? I am really getting quite confused about this.
PN27
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. I think Mr Palmer is seeking to fill me in on the background, but I must admit I asked myself the mental question, are we dealing with the 127 application here?
PN28
MR PALMER: I will move to that.
PN29
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just before you do, I think at the very outset you indicated that you were having talks with Mr Mighell, and you would seek the indulgence of the Commission to continue those talks. Perhaps that might be the more sensible course to adopt then putting anything further on the record at this stage. I won't constrain you, but perhaps - - -
PN30
MR PALMER: I would like to move to the chase if you like.
PN31
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. I am just concerned that things aren't said that then have to be reacted to whereas it sounds as though meaningful discussions were taking place before I came on the bench.
PN32
MR PALMER: Silcar is of the view that matters have to be said because we are drifting into serious difficulty.
PN33
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I won't stop you.
PN34
MR PALMER: Well moving to the chase, your Honour. Shortly put, we are going to ask the Commission to make a declaration that an agreement was properly made pursuant to division VIB of the Act, and in respect to that we are positioned to bring evidence as to how that agreement was made. Having done that, your Honour, or if there is no need to do that, we would ask the Commission to assist the parties in understanding how the agreement that was properly made is maintained until its October expiry date, when we would fully expect to get a bargaining notice from the union and to enter into negotiations.
PN35
Now, whether that's done formally with the assistance of the Commission, that the documentation is put into such a way that there is no embargo to its certification, or whether it's done in another way by way of undertakings, and we are certainly prepared to make an undertaking that will honour every nuance of that agreement through to its notional expiry date, and if the ETU are of a like mind, the matter may well end there. That's where we are. Now, we have referred to secondary activity, and I am careful with my words, but as we speak we are drafting an application pursuant to section 127 and section 166A of the Act, and our advice is that we have sufficient evidence to launch a prosecution for an action in court, and there is a level to which companies are prepared to grin and bear it, and there's a level beyond which they are not, and I think Silcar is saying quite clearly on the record today, we are at that point where beyond this we are not prepared to put up with it. That's all I want to say at this point, but we welcome the chance for further discussion with the union at your discretion, your Honour, when they have had a chance to say what they want to say, if the Commission pleases.
PN36
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you Mr Palmer. Mr Mighell it's your chance to put what you wish on the record.
PN37
MR MIGHELL: Yes, thank you, your Honour. Look, your Honour, the ETU lodged the bargaining period with Silcar on 24 September, Mr Palmer is absolutely correct. That was a bargaining period that I signed, being the authorised officer to do that on behalf of our union. It was served on Silcar in accordance with the Act and was in fact and if I can quote that agreement said:
PN38
We seek to reach agreement under Division 2 of the Workplace Relations Act with a joint venture at Siemens Pty Ltd and Thiess Pty Ltd trading as Silcar.
PN39
In that initiation of the bargaining period, nor at any time since, has the union ever sought anything than a complete agreement with Silcar in the State of Victoria for our members who work under the scope and incidence of the Electrical Communications and Contracting Industry Award. Nor have I, at any time since, indicated to Silcar that we seek anything other than an agreement with that organisation in its total sense.
PN40
I understand the employees last met to consider an agreement on 22 November, it's been I think around about 2 and a half months, I stand to be corrected on the official date, that they were supposed to have endorsed the agreement. The agreement history, I didn't deal with the case, your Honour, personally last time, so I am not 100 per cent familiar with it, but there were a number of issues that the Commission raised, certain respect in regards to the Electrolux matter, there was also a question that the union raised about the validity of any agreement. The history really is that one of our officials, an organiser of the union who operates in the La Trobe Valley, Peter Mooney, was involved in negotiations with Silcar and he had progressed those negotiations for a period of time, and I found out later that he had signed off a memorandum of understanding with Silcar.
PN41
Now, I had grave concerns about that conduct because we are a registered organisation, we have rules and we are very careful and very mindful about the signing of any form of agreement. I think, as Mr Palmer knows and Silcar knows the only authorised officer of the Southern States Branch of the CPU Electrical Division to sign agreements is myself. We have had many dealings together and I am sure that he is well and truly familiar with that. It is a little bit cute to use Mr Mooney in this way. He has made a mistake, he has been reprimanded about that, and has moved to try and ensure that the union doesn't make the same mistake again.
PN42
In essence, your Honour, the union has always sought, and still seeks to reach, an agreement with Silcar. Since the application that was last before the Commission I have been personally involved in some negotiations with Mr Palmer and Mr Mears, to try and understand the scope and application of Silcar. Who are they, what businesses do they operate in, is there any little parts of Silcar we don't know that should be covered by an agreement that aren't and I think we have been able to have some fairly good dialogue. In fact, it was agreed at those meetings that the application for the certified agreement and in fact the agreement itself in terms of its scope and application were incorrect. So there has been an acceptance that the agreement that they allegedly today seek to certify was made, in fact, was never made and, in fact, is flawed in its scope and application. They agreed that it doesn't cover the workers it now intends to cover.
PN43
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Who agreed with that Mr Mighell?
PN44
MR MIGHELL: Mr Palmer and Mr Mears. In fact there has been some correspondence I would like to hand up if I can, your Honour, about that.
PN45
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you.
PN46
MR MIGHELL: Your Honour, that effectively is fairly good evidence to the fact that the scope of the agreement isn't clear and I was then invited to draft what the union thought would be an appropriate scope and application clause and quite frankly I have been inundated with work since my return from annual leave. I haven't had the opportunity to do that, but clearly that would be a significant variation to the agreement that the company now seeks to certify but in reality has been having discussions with the union about changing it. That, of course, would need to be ratified by the employees.
PN47
Also, the union has been insistent all along that it seeks an agreement that would cover all employees in the State of Victoria who are employed by Silcar under the scope and incidence of the Electrical Contracting Industry Award. There are two lots of employees who we found out were going to a division of Silcar, and I stand to be corrected, Power and Industry Division, with which Mr Mears is the general manager.
PN48
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, the Power and?
PN49
MR MIGHELL: Power and Industry I believe it is called, your Honour. And the Yallourn maintenance crew and the Loy Yang maintenance crew work under agreements that Silcar has with unions. They don't have an agreement with the CEPU and the Electrical Division. There is a whole history to that that I probably don't need to go through, but both parties have honoured those agreements and they have been put in place. The rest of the employees work in the Morwell workshop or a base from the Morwell workshop. We have been very keen to get an understanding of, is there any other employees in the State of Victoria covered by this agreement, anyone who wouldn't be, as in the other divisions of Silcar who would cover employees? We are told they are not. So there has been a fair bit of work, your Honour, between the parties to try and reach agreement. I am somewhat surprised that Silcar bring this matter before you again today while those discussions were still taking place, even trying to clarify who will be covered by the agreement.
PN50
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am not sure that Silcar brought it back on, I think it came as a result of it being referred to me from Senior Deputy President Acton. I am not sure that you can sheet home the listing to Silcar. It may be my fault, Mr Mighell.
PN51
MR MIGHELL: My apologies, your Honour, if that's the case, that's fine. I think importantly, your Honour, what I sought to do was meet with employees yesterday and while Silcar might put on a bit of theatrics about what a terrible thing that is, we felt it critically importantly that employees be bought up to speed, I needed to know their feelings on the matters, and in fact Silcar actually called a stop work meeting before we did and at that stop work meeting that they called, your Honour, they put out a briefing note communication to all of their employees in the valley, they put out a briefing note communication to the members of the Morwell Workshop and also, I believe, to the members who are maintenance workers at the power stations. If I can, your Honour, I would like to table that as an exhibit if I may.
PN52
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Are you seeking to tender the letter that you handed up earlier?
MR MIGHELL: Yes, thank you, your Honour, if I may.
EXHIBIT #U1 - LETTER SIGNED BY MR BRIAN MEARS, GENERAL MANAGER OF SILCAR DATED 27/01/2005
EXHIBIT #U2 - BRIEFING NOTES FOR COMMUNICATION WITH EMPLOYEES
PN54
MR MIGHELL: Just if I can take you to the briefing note that was issued for communications. Obviously, that was a reaction from Silcar to the fact that we would be seeking the views of our members and providing information to them about the current state of affairs and confusion around their certified agreement. They probably heard nothing formally since 22 November. Silcar outlined some background. I guess the real key is for us is there is a bit of theatrics in it they tried to introduce BlueScope as an issue relevant to this. We don't see the issue of BlueScope as relevant to this. We think if we reach agreement with Silcar, naturally any employees they may employ, because they don't have any yet, that Silcar will be covered by this agreement. That would be our ultimate goal.
PN55
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So they don't have any yet at BlueScope?
PN56
MR MIGHELL: No, there are no employees who work for Silcar at BlueScope.
PN57
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: As yet.
PN58
MR MIGHELL: As yet. Mr Palmer painted that in a rather rosy light, but I think it is a very complex situation, and I am sure your Honour is aware of the proceedings before the Commission in respect of BlueScope. But we are all working away at trying to resolve it. I suppose, your Honour, I just want to take you to the final section that in the left hand box is called Silcar, and it says:
PN59
Silcar works with different clients in different industries where contracts require us to attain site specific agreements. We have agreed to the ETU pattern agreement for our electrical contracting work in Victoria.
PN60
That in itself is quite a different statement than the one that was in their initial application. In fact, it's been a problem we have been working with Silcar to try and fix.
PN61
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, you say you want an agreement for all of their employees in Victoria and this agreement is confined to Morwell, that's the nub of the issue isn't it?
PN62
MR MIGHELL: Absolutely, your Honour. That is absolutely the issue. Their employees, having copped those briefing notes from the employer, thought well everything is fixed, and I then proceeded to meet with the employees. The meeting went for about an hour, and there was no industrial action and the employees returned to work. There was no strike action. If they did, I know absolutely nothing about that. So if it's different from that, I would be disturbed and stand to be corrected. But the key issue there for us, following that, is the employees said, well, look, we are happy to reach agreement with Silcar, they all want the industry standards if you like, your Honour, they seek to have that apply in all parts of Silcar's operation, and they are probably a little bit confused by the BlueScope argument.
PN63
They are not particularly worried about that argument; they are worried about getting their agreement in place. They have asked me to have discussions with the company seeking to get the company to be a party to the new industry agreements that have been reached. I conveyed that yesterday to the company. I met after the meeting with Mr Greg Plaiden of Silcar, who was the operations support manager for the people down there, and he was, I think, supportive of those negotiations. I spoke to Mr Palmer and said on the way back as a courtesy, the meeting went well, we are keen to have a talk with you progressing those agreements and getting a proper four year agreement in place in line with the industry standards and invited Mr Palmer to insure himself that in fact those standards did exist.
PN64
So for us, your Honour, there's been no industrial action. I am quite offended by the suggestion that there was, that the doom and gloom of the company not losing work without specifics, and if Silcar does have an application for orders, I am sure they will make it and provide that evidence in due course.
PN65
Your Honour, I suppose I just want to wind up by saying that if they seek a declaration they have evidence, certainly they would have given us that evidence prior to today of them coming here actually, seeking a certified agreement, or that was the intent. They now want this hearing to be something else, then I think that there is a duty on them to inform us prior to that, and then rock up today and try to present evidence I think is inappropriate and would ask that the Commission give us time to consider any evidence that they may wish to table in respect to perhaps what should be another application, if the Commission pleases.
PN66
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you. You are amenable to continuing your discussions with Mr Palmer I take it?
PN67
MR MIGHELL: Yes, your Honour.
PN68
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Mr Palmer what have you got there?
PN69
MR PALMER: Yes, Mr Mears and I are here, ready, willing and able to enter into discussions with the ETU. But I need to say a couple of things, your Honour. My friend and I have known each other for a long time. I think we are a bit confused. Mr Mighell did speak to me before he went down the valley, but not after. Look it's not fair to say that we are trying to bring evidence. We are not trying bringing evidence today, we are going to seek a declaration from the Commission, and we need to bring evidence about that. We would prefer to settle the matter with the union. Shortly put, the union's own legal officer in proceedings before Commissioner Blair said, in the record, this is all part of an overarching dispute that we have will Silcar.
PN70
The dispute is exactly, and you went to the nub of it, my friend agreed, it's about foisting on Silcar not the extant ETU pattern agreement, but some new arrangement that some shadowy group have put together that is now said to be the industry standard. Well, we don't know anything it, we had not part in negotiating it, but it's got to be put to you, and that's it, it's non-negotiable, pick it up for all of your business for now, for the future, whatever it is, whatever size or shape it is, whether it's contracting work or manufacturing work, you have got to pick that up there ain't no option, and if you don't, you know what's going to happen to you. I mean, that's it.
PN71
But, enough's enough. We are prepared to sit down, finesse BlueScope agreement as far as we can, we are prepared to sit down and say, well, hey guys, you know, in good faith you did an agreement down the valley, we are going to honour it through to October and then we will be back to the table, we want that accepted by the ETU, and we want to tick that the other two sites that we have, the power stations, as my friend said, yes, we will honour that. Okay, well, just give us a little tick, not, we will honour it if you sign the pattern agreement.
PN72
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: As you understand it, it's not the blue book that the union wants for the whole of Silcar's operations?
PN73
MR PALMER: It's the new version of it as I understand, the shadowy group that put this together. I mean, we don't know who they are. I mean, you talk to the national - - -
PN74
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you know what it is Mr Palmer that they want you to sign up to?
PN75
MR PALMER: Well, we know what it is. It's 320-odd pages of prescription, but it's part of - and I mean, we have been caught up in this, the ETU, the summer offensive. We know what the offensive is, it's an offensive to get this new agreement in place that's developed by we don't know who. Don't know who sat at the table, don't know who drew it, to get it in place.
PN76
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But you do know what it is that they want?
PN77
MR PALMER: Yes. But to get it in place, your Honour - - -
PN78
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't care who put it together Mr Palmer.
PN79
MR PALMER: To get it in place not just with us, but with every electrical contractor in the state that has signed by existing book which is still current, but bugger that, let's have another go, let's have another lick and as I say, enough's enough. We are prepared to continue the discussions we have, but my instructions are these that if we can't make breach or landing, we will make our applications, we will prosecute them, we will seek a declaration from the Commission, and we will see where that takes us, if your Honour pleases.
PN80
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you for that, Mr Palmer.
PN81
MR MIGHELL: I thought that was fantastic. Just for the record, that's the best impression I have seen for a while.
PN82
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It was an exemplary performance.
PN83
MR PALMER: We are still friends; we just have a disagreement, your Honour.
PN84
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I think I had better send you back into conference, hadn't I?
PN85
MR MIGHELL: Yes, please.
PN86
MR PALMER: We would be happy to do that and I mean we have the maturity and the executive authority here to negotiate and with my friend here we know they have, but we would request, your Honour, that you maintain an interest in this matter because it could get out of hand.
PN87
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will maintain an interest Mr Palmer.
PN88
MR PALMER: Given the industry sir that we are involved in, I think that there is a public interest there that ought to be attended to.
PN89
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We will go off the record now and see where go, thank you.
<NO FURTHER PROCEEDINGS RECORDED
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs
EXHIBIT #U1 - LETTER SIGNED BY MR BRIAN MEARS, GENERAL MANAGER OF SILCAR DATED 27/01/2005 PN53
EXHIBIT #U2 - BRIEFING NOTES FOR COMMUNICATION WITH EMPLOYEES PN53
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