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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT AUSTRALASIA PTY LTD
ABN 72 110 028 825
Level 6, 114-120 Castlereagh St SYDNEY NSW 2000
PO Box A2405 SYDNEY SOUTH NSW 1235
Tel:(02) 9238-6500 Fax:(02) 9238-6533
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N 15875
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DRAKE
C2004/3156
CONSTRUCTION, FORESTRY, MINING AND
ENERGY UNION
and
A.C. WHALAN & CO PTY LIMITED AND OTHERS
Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of an industrial dispute re wages and conditions
SYDNEY
10.10 AM, MONDAY, 20 DECEMBER 2004
Continued from 9.12.04
PN402
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DRAKE: So where are we?
PN403
MS GRAY: Your Honour, one of the company witnesses, Mr Shay has an important meeting today. I think Mr Moy sent your Honour correspondence on that?
PN404
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DRAKE: You have filed, okay. What are you taking me to?
PN405
MS GRAY: We've reversed the order of witnesses. What that might mean, your Honour, is that we may need to recall some of our witnesses after Mr Shay's evidence, but we think that is unlikely, but is a possibility. We just raised it at this stage. Otherwise, we are happy to go ahead with our case, your Honour, and our first witness would be Mr Peter Murray.
PN406
MS GRAY: Mr Murray, could you give your full name and address for the record, please?---Peter Douglas Murray of (address supplied).
PN407
Mr Murray, have you prepared a witness statement for these proceedings?---I have.
PN408
Do you have a copy of it with you?---I do.
PN409
Is it true and correct to the best of your knowledge?---It is.
PN410
Your Honour, we seek to have that marked.
PN411
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DRAKE: What was the date again?
PN412
MR HERBERT: 23 September.
PN413
MS GRAY: 23rd, your Honour, of September.
PN414
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DRAKE: I will give you the number in a minute.
PN415
MS GRAY: Okay. We have no further questions of Mr Murray and we just rely on his witness statement, thank you, your Honour.
PN416
**** PETER DOUGLAS MURRAY XXN MR HERBERT
PN417
MR HERBERT: Thank you, your Honour. Mr Murray, could I take you to paragraph 10 of your statement, please?---Yes.
PN418
You have refer there to your knowledge Harnischfeger is and has been engaged to perform work in the coal mining industry in the northern district of the following coal mines. Your reference there to performing wok in the coal mining industry is an opinion that you hold that the work done by Harnischfeger is in the coal mining industry, is that right? That is an expression of your opinion?---It is coal industry work that has been performed, yes.
PN419
It is. All right, and you say it is coal industry work, as I read the rest of your statement, because it is done on a coal mine and that some of this work was, you say, the same as work that coalminers do?---And also that the work that is now being performed has always historically been performed by permanent employees of coal operators have been replaced by the employees of P&H.
PN420
The maintenance on the shovel and dragline at Bulga is the first item that you mention in paragraph 10. You say that was previously done by permanent employees of the miner?---Historically since the introduction of the Bulga operation employees tradesmen - maintenance tradesmen were employed specifically to do that and other associated work.
PN421
All right. Now, you have mentioned there some of the work that Bulga - I'm sorry, that P&H performs at some coal mines. You have referred to, at Wambo - depending on what State you live in. In Queensland that would be Tambo if it had a "T" on it. At Wambo the operation and maintenance of the drill for the drill and blast function of the mine - do you have any personal knowledge of that operation?---Only information that I've received in my capacity as the district president from reports that are detailed at meetings that we hold from time to time with mine site employees and their representatives.
PN422
Is that the same situation with your evidence about Ashton?---Likewise. In my capacity now as president I don't actually physically attend the mines, but obviously I'm brought up to speed with that information as it is brought before me from time to time from the people that are out there.
**** PETER DOUGLAS MURRAY XXN MR HERBERT
PN423
So that is, the information that you have provided there in relation to Wambo and Ashton is information that has been provided to you by members and others on site, you say?---From, in fact, surveys that were put out to employees at the time that they responded to.
PN424
All right. So you have no direct knowledge of exactly what it is that P&H does on those sites in relation to drilling?---I have no physical witness, but I do have the statements that have been put to me by survey that was sent to the employee representatives who, in fact, did work on the job. I've had no reason to doubt that they would not have filled those surveys in correctly.
PN425
So it is the answers to surveys sent out to your members that is the source of your information about that?---That is correct.
PN426
Is that right? Have you seen the statement that has been filed in these proceedings by Mr Shay? Have you been shown that?---I have not gone to any great depth to read that statement, no. I've just been concentrating on my own statement.
PN427
All right, and you haven't otherwise looked at the nature of the operations, broadly speaking, the P&H as a company undertakes?---In a broader spectrum, no. I've only concentrated on what has been required of me in terms of sourcing the information in relation to the operations of the northern district.
PN428
All right. Now, you say in paragraph 12:
PN429
The work done by P&H on coal mines throughout the northern district is work otherwise regulated by the industry award and previously subsequently concurrently done by direct coal mining employees.
PN430
So as you understand it, work of that time when done by a coal miner was regulated by the award that otherwise regulated coal miners?---As permanent employees of a coal operator.
**** PETER DOUGLAS MURRAY XXN MR HERBERT
PN431
Historically that work, however - work of that kind if done by contractors is not regulated by that award?---It has not been regulated on the basis of the arguments it continues throughout the industry is to the dispute between the parties as to what contractors see as mining work, as what we and employees see as mining work, are the definition of an employee in terms of that type of work. It has been, and continues to be performed at many mine sites, by permanent employees covered by the award or subsequent agreements that we have with major contractors.
PN432
Historically was not done by - work of that kind that was done on mine sites by contractors of all varieties was not regulated by the award. That work was done by the contractors under their existing awards or arrangements reached outside the coal industry?---Not necessarily. They could have been done under agreements that were reached by our unions who cover that work either by way of agreement with the operator and/or the contractor would be a way that that work would have been regulated by.
PN433
Well, taking Harnischfeger, for example. Harnischfeger has been producing coal mining equipment in Australia for many years, is that so?---As I understand it in producing under the ownership of P&H off-site - off-site producing coal mining equipment.
PN434
Constructing draglines on or adjacent to coal mining sites, including Bulga?---In circumstances there is a construction pad that is a designated construction area that in a lot of times is off a coal mining lease. They then walk the machinery onto the coal mining lease. There is a fence put around that in the terms of construction, because it is not associated or directly linked with the production of coal at the time that it is being, if you like, manufactured.
PN435
Well, in fact, a major dragline was built next to the pit at Bulga within a 100 metres or so of the pit at Bulga some years ago. Isn't that so?---On the other side of the highway, and then walk across the highway.
**** PETER DOUGLAS MURRAY XXN MR HERBERT
PN436
So it was a couple of hundred metres away from the pit?---And by an agreement there was a fence put around that as a construction site for the construction of that - the construction, not maintenance, and served as the construction of that equipment.
PN437
So that the historical position reached in relation to that at Bulga was that the assembly construction fabrication work was not covered by the coal industry awards?---By agreement between the parties to allow that and assumed to be matter of fact, as I understand it.
PN438
Yes?---There was an agreement between the parties.
PN439
All right, and the only difference between that and the many of the matters you are talking about here is that, in fact, I think as I recall it, the coal lease was not applied for the purposes of creating a construction pad off-lease for that job, is that right?---By agreement too, because of the enormity of that job. It obviously could not be manufactured elsewhere and carted by road to have it be there, but purely on the basis of the assembly, if you like, of that machine, but from the time that machinery, or any other machinery for that matter, becomes involved in the process of production of coal is then - always has been done historically by service and maintenance of permanent employees, not contractors.
PN440
So it would be the dividing line traditionally that you now refer to is that the construction work that is done, whether it is done on or adjacent to a coal lease, was never the subject of the coal mining awards, but you say that once the machinery moved on-site and was utilised by the miner, it was then traditionally maintained by the mining company and that was then work that was covered by the coal mining awards?---Once the machinery becomes part of the cycle of production then it is certainly service, maintenance, repairs, are all covered under the award in my view.
**** PETER DOUGLAS MURRAY XXN MR HERBERT
PN441
Historically only if that work was performed by the coal mining company?---No, the issue with it is that what you are trying to allege, as I would see it, is that because it is operated by a contractor then there is some exemption for it to be covered by the award. That is not the case. In a lot of operations whole mines are operated by contractors and all their employees are covered by the award.
PN442
The maintenance of the large coal mining equipment if done - if the maintenance work was done by a contractor, traditionally, that contractor has not been covered by the coal mining awards. That has been a traditional role, or the traditional demarcation, if you like, between the coverage of the Production Engineering Award where it applies and where it does not to maintenance staff. It applies to coal mining staff, coal miner's staff, but not to contractor's staff?---By way of numerous agreements, we have provided for that coverage to take place as the award being the minimum, and the process of breaking the contract the company is in is the very essence to provide for that award provision for those covered employees.
PN443
Now, you have mentioned in paragraph 13 a number of historical demarcations, but in each case you are referring there to when the work was done by a coal mining company, is that so?---Not necessarily, because even pre the 1990 Award the Roping-in was a process that brought in contracting companies that were performing work on coal sites. It has been an ongoing process.
PN444
Well, you have referred to an example in paragraph 15 where that was attempted and it wasn't pursued?---That was one example with one major contracting company.
PN445
Yes, but it is your example, Mr Murray, and it is one where - - -?---One example.
**** PETER DOUGLAS MURRAY XXN MR HERBERT
PN446
- - - it never went anywhere?---It didn't go anywhere, purely on the basis that there was intervention from the ACTU on a demarcation issue. It was certainly no fault of the CFMEU and that process never went anywhere because there was commitments given by the AMWU that, in fact, that process would be followed through. That didn't follow through because of their reasons that they would explain rather than I, but we've been able to rectify that by way of agreements, and if you also see in that statement of mine we are, in fact, now because of the changes of that contract from Gough and Gilmour, they lost that contract to Westra. We are now seeking exactly the same process now with Westra. There's a distinct difference, I say with due respect, in the terms of recruiting of membership into trying to ensure that people are respondent to the award.
PN447
The demarcation arrangements with the AMWU and the Gough and Gilmour case was that a demarcation arrangement where the settlement with the metal workers is that they've retained the coverage over the Gough and Gilmour employees?---That was a direction, or an agreement reached with our senior union officials, and senior union officials of the AMWU back in those days, but there was also on the basis of the understanding that I've had in my experience was that they were, in fact, as part of that settlement with the ACTU that the metalworkers were then obligated to pursue and seek that those employees would be provided with the wage and conditions of employees in the mining industry. Now, because they didn't do their job I don't think it has had any bearing on the fact that the demarcation - we honoured our end of it, and because of whatever reason, they didn't fulfil that shouldn't have any bearing on the fact that that statement had been made in its context that we are now seeking with Westra to rope them in as well.
PN448
So the position remains in relation to the major engineering contactors who have some involvement by way of performing work for coal miners that you are not able to point to any that have been roped into the Production Engineering Award by determination of the Commission?---Only because of the award simplification has really put a barrier up in front of that for a number of years. So what we've had to do to, I suppose, develop what we see are the right ways and conditions for those employees is to go out and do agreements by way of certified agreements either with the operators and/or in some cases
**** PETER DOUGLAS MURRAY XXN MR HERBERT
with a contractor. I mean, the reason that the respondency hasn't been as successful as what we would have liked to have seen it to be has again been taken away by the award simplification that delayed that process for a number of years.
PN449
Well, you say the success isn't what you want. I think you answered my question that so far as your statement is concerned - so far as your evidence was concerned, you are not able to point to any contractors who have roped-in to the award in your district by a determination of the Commission?---Whilst the simplification matter was on, that was not a position that was provided for.
PN450
Thank you?---This is its process that is under way at the moment.
PN451
I have nothing further.
PN452
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DRAKE: Yes, any re-examination?
PN453
PN454
MS GRAY: Mr Murray, can you just explain to us where you say the distinction between construction and coal mining work occurs in terms of draglines and shovels?
PN455
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DRAKE: I'm sure that that applies to cross-examination.
PN456
MS GRAY: Yes, it does, your Honour. Mr Herbert asked a number of questions of Mr Murray about the construction of the dragline at Bulga. The fact that it was a designated construction site on a coal mining lease, or off a coal mining lease and so - - -
**** PETER DOUGLAS MURRAY RXN MS GRAY
PN457
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DRAKE: All right. I thought that was confined to Bulga, but not the general position.
PN458
MR HERBERT: It must be too close to Christmas, but I actually don't object to the question. To be fair, which I'm usually not, it probably does arise, your Honour.
PN459
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DRAKE: Well, I disagree with you but, in any event, I'm going to allow the question.
PN460
THE WITNESS: There has from time to time been agreements reached with operators to identify a certain area in terms of drag lines and shovels they called the construction pad where they put a fence around that to provide for, I suppose, isolation to that work to be done because again the fact that the putting together of that equipment is not as part of the cycle of mining as it is as when the equipment is commissioned and then put on to the site. It then becomes part of the cycle of operations.
PN461
MR GRAY: So when the equipment is commissioned, it becomes coal mining. Prior to that it is construction?---By agreement at some places. Some places it not necessarily would be the case, depending on the size.
PN462
And what would it be then? Would it be engineering or would it be construction if it isn't coal mining?---Well, in a lot of cases it would more than likely come under an engineering, the P and E Engineering provisions. Again we've got - - -
PN463
P and E as in coal mining award?---Yes, I'm sorry, the Production and Engineering Award minimum conditions and/or by way of the terms that are covered under the multitude of enterprise agreements. We've got that specifically covered for conditions for contractors doing that type of work.
**** PETER DOUGLAS MURRAY RXN MS GRAY
PN464
And once it is commissioned and becomes part of the production equipment, then you say it is in the coal mining industry and stays there?---Yes.
PN465
Nothing further thank you, your Honour.
PN466
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I didn't mark this statement earlier because I wasn't sure of the number of exhibits we had, but I think is 3, is that your note? I think we have two exhibits so far. They are the statements, attachment A, I have them marked on 11 June. Do you have a note?
PN467
MS GRAY: That was for the roping-in was it, your Honour? 1, 2 and 3 would have been the draft roping-in and - - -
PN468
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There's only two. We made it attachment A. I will show them to you. It is just that I wanted to make sure that these were the right attachments, on 11 June. Do you have a note, Mr Herbert?
PN469
MR HERBERT: No, we are looking, your Honour.
PN470
MS GRAY: Yes, your Honour, these are certainly in the same matter number as this but that is all of the parties to this dispute finding. We don't actually have any exhibits marked for the Harnischfeger objection and it might be more helpful - you know, of course your Honour can do as your Honour pleases but it might be more helpful if we had started a different exhibit numbering for just the Harnischfeger I would have thought.
**** PETER DOUGLAS MURRAY RXN MS GRAY
PN471
MR HERBERT: Your Honour, I can assist. On 11 June exhibit CFMEU attachment A, it was called, is was said by Ms Gray. It is an amended attachment A to the proposed draft dispute finding, I think, and Ms Gray asked that it be marked as an exhibit which that was done. CFMEU exhibit 2 is said to be a list of companies. That matter, however - and I think that is a list of proposed parties to an overall dispute finding but on that occasion you had a raft of matters before you and they weren't specific to the Harnischfeger matter at all, as I understand it.
PN472
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Why don't I call that a general exhibit?
PN473
MR HERBERT: Yes.
PN474
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We will call this Mr Harnischfeger list. How about that?
PN475
MS GRAY: Yes, your Honour.
PN476
PN477
MS GRAY: Thank you, your Honour. We would not seek to call Mr Lloyd Hill.
PN478
PN479
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: When do you intend to call Mr Shea?
PN480
MR HERBERT: Your Honour, he physically couldn't be here today because of some very urgent company business. We expected, given the number of witnesses and other matters, that we would probably fill up most of today but if we are going to be short, we've arranged for Mr Shea that he will be flying in either later tonight or first thing in the morning. But he was ready to be called first thing tomorrow morning.
PN481
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I'm not hassled by it.
PN482
PN483
MS GRAY: Mr Hill, could you please give your full name and address for the record?---Lloyd Owen Hill, (address supplied).
PN484
Mr Hill, have you prepared a written statement in these proceedings?---I have.
PN485
Do you have a copy of it with you?---I do.
PN486
Is it true and correct to the best of your knowledge?---Yes, to the best of my knowledge.
PN487
PN488
MS GRAY: Mr Hill, in paragraph 11 of your witness statement, you have said that when Harnischfeger employees at Bulga need to use cranes on site, these are provided by BCM through a crane hire agreement that P&H employees can access. Could you explain that process to your knowledge to us?---My understanding is that Bulga Coal initiated and had a cranage hire agreement contract with Bowers who's now Boom Logistics and there was a yearly set amount that is paid in crane hireage and there's a pool of cranes available for Bulga Coal to access. So as an example, if they have a crane at the washery, anyone can redirect that crane as priorities for whether their priorities change to another area, so on the mine sites. So there's a pool of cranes on site pretty well 24 hours a day or at the begging of the supervisors or Bulga Coal employees to be able to access.
PN489
Has that been an ongoing arrangement with this crane hire?---That's been in place for a number of years. That was initiated approximately, to the best of my knowledge, 5, maybe 6 years ago.
**** LLOYD OWEN HILL XN MS GRAY
PN490
So it predated Harnischfeger coming on site?---That's correct.
PN491
Mr Hill, Mr Freeburn, who is the Harnischfeger site supervisor at Bulga, has a witness statement in these proceedings which states in paragraph 10 that:
PN492
Any consumables taken from the store by Harnischfeger employees are billed to Harnischfeger and therefore are not paid by the mine.
PN493
Is that the circumstances to the best of your knowledge?---My understanding is there's an area in the store for consumables which is day to day needs, bolts, CP40 which is a spray, Cat green, bannister brushes, just general consumables. It's classed as free issue area and hydraulic fittings, A rings. That area, anyone can access and there's no form to put in and all people, all contractors, all on-site personnel go to that area and utilise whatever is there and what is needed to do the job.
PN494
So that is whether they would be Bulga employees or contractor employees doing maintenance?---Well, at the end of the day it's a task that's needed to do to complete a job and whether you're a contractor or a Bulga Coal employee, you're treated as the same and you go and access whatever's needed to complete that task.
PN495
And what happens in respect to the diesel issue at the store?---Well, there's a diesel pump and it was highlighted to the company a number of years ago that contractors were accessing, because we had an issue where there was an employee who shouldn't have been using diesel and was found out. So when the contractors were using the diesel we asked the question because there's always been a position put forward by the company that they're losing diesel. So we followed that up and asked how could they reprimand employees when contractors were utilising it also for welders and on-site vehicles. And the response from the company was that they as an organisation can buy diesel at a great discount than what the contractors can. So they were happy to let them use the diesel as part of their duties.
**** LLOYD OWEN HILL XN MS GRAY
PN496
Now, you have said in paragraph 15 that the Harnischfeger employees are now required to attend safety talks, tool-box talks in the workshop. Can you give us a quick overview of what those talks are?---At the start of every shift we have what's classed as a tool-box talk and that tool-box talk gives a run-down on the jobs that are needed to be completed for that shift. It also highlights safety concerns and ongoing reminders as to keep people focused on their jobs and safety issues. So in most tool-box talks they run through - as an example, my last shift they run through all the incidents that happened in the Hunter Valley in the last 3 days. So they highlight safety aspects but they also run people through not only their task by giving reminders and giving talks but to go to the next level there's other training that also P&H are involved in and that is there's a Be Safe which is a series of lectures that was given through all the crews and it was a way to hopefully eliminate some of the injuries that are happening on site and that talk - all the contract employees attended and - - -
PN497
Who gave those talks?---Well, on those talks at the time I was the occ health and safety chairman so I gave them talks but they're ongoing. They're talks that get reinforced all the time and P&H employees attend all those talks. There's also the training that they've just received which is lock-out which is a new form of danger tag system that has been implemented at Bulga Coal, and they've attended all those talks also.
PN498
At paragraph 16 you refer to the circumstance where your employer had trained the maintenance - Direct Employee Maintenance people at Bulga on the operation of plant and equipment with a view of transferring more maintenance people into operator roles. At the time that you did your witness statement you say that you'd asked the company several times what has become of the proposal but had received no further information. Is there any update to that circumstance, and if so, can you give it now, Mr Hill?---Approximately 2 weeks ago the company come to us and notified the maintenance that two people off each crew will be needed to do production roles. So on my crew there's four fitters and two electricians and so now every shift, two people go down and drive a truck for that 12-1/2 hour shift. So we've been transferred on a shift by shift basis. Basically two people now go down and operate the vehicles, so effectively our maintenance role has been depleted because we now have been moved over into a production role.
**** LLOYD OWEN HILL XN MS GRAY
PN499
You have done that yourself personally?---Yes.
PN500
So the work that you were doing as a maintenance person at Bulga would be one by whom?---Well, it would be done by the permanent contractors. The work that we normally do on a day-to-day basis simply isn't being done now. As an example, my last shift, we have one fitter and one electrician who were in the pit and they drive around in a vehicle and they do jobs of less than an hour. So they are minor jobs, and with the two people who having to be transferred over to production there was only one fitter, and one electrician in the pit. Because of the short-term manning that we have on-site, we don't have anyone else to do any other duties, where normally we do have a couple of people in the workshop, those people just aren't thee. So we've been moved from a maintenance function to a predominantly production function now, and the tasks that I used to do are now been being picked up by the full-time contractors.
PN501
PN502
MR HERBERT: Which full-time contractors? Which full-time contractors have picked up the tasks that you used to do?---There is Westra. There is a company called Westra who has two people per shift on site. There is P&H who have two people on each crew on site, and there's Kumatsu who have two people per shift on site. So effectively there's six full-time contractors on a shift, and there's six Bulga coal employees on shift.
PN503
The P&H employees work on P&H equipment in your mine?---No, they work - it all depends what the priorities are. They work on whatever is needed.
**** LLOYD OWEN HILL XXN MR HERBERT
PN504
P&H employees, I suggest to you, are engaged to work on the P&H equipment to maintain the P&H equipment under a contract they have with the mine owner to maintain the equipment manufactured by P&H?---They do whatever the priority is. There predominant role is the 10-year contract, but they - on a daily basis they are there to do whatever is dictated to by Bulga. If the need is to work on that equipment, yes, but if the need is there - there needs to be an emphasis, as an example, to get trucks going, well, they work on that equipment. It is on an as needs basis.
PN505
Well, I suggest that is not right, Mr Hill. The position is, as I think you said, there is a 10-year contract between Harnischfeger and the Bulga coal company, a life cycle maintenance contract they call it. Is that right?---Yes.
PN506
That is part of the sale of the P&H dragline equipment they enter into a 10-year contract to maintain that equipment that they've sold?---No, I believe that is not correct, but I think your phrasing of it is wrong. The sale of the dragline was completed, and there was no maintenance contract entered into until there was a settlement of outstanding faults on the dragline, which to my knowledge was approximately $28 million, and we maintained the dragline for a number of years. Then because of that outcome of what was going to be an out-of-Court settlement they ended up coming up with an agreement which was a 10-year maintenance contract. That is my understanding of the events.
PN507
Part of the after sales arrangements entered into for that equipment was a 10-year contract entered into in 2002 to go to 2012?---Yes but, I mean, the machine was delivered on site well before 2002.
PN508
That is, as part of the arrangements to maintain the availability and reliability of P&Hs plant, that they sent their own dedicated staff in to look after their own plant?---After there's a settlement, there was a time frame from when the machine was sold until when that was settled. There's a number of years passed where we looked after the machine completely. Like, what happened realistically was there was a dedicated Bulga coal workforce that looked after the dragline. Those people were retrenched, and the next day P&H had a dedicated workforce look after that dragline.
**** LLOYD OWEN HILL XXN MR HERBERT
PN509
The manufacturer of the dragline sent in its own dedicated workforce to look after the dragline it had manufactured as part of a contract with the coal company?---My understanding is that it was an out of - - -
PN510
Is that right or not?---My understanding is that there was a $28 million out of Court settlement well after the sale.
PN511
Well, leaving aside your understanding about all of that, is it not the fact that the machine manufacturer sent in its own dedicated workforce under a 10-year contract to maintain the machine that it had manufactured?---There's a time frame yet - - -
PN512
Did they, or didn't they, Mr Hill?---There's a - - -
PN513
Yes or no?---There's a time frame that I think - - -
PN514
Mr Hill, yes or no. It is a simple question. Do you want me to ask it again?---I think I can hear what you are saying, but I can't understand. You are trying to phrase a question.
PN515
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DRAKE: Mr Hill, you shouldn't worry about what he is trying to do. That is Ms Gray's problem. Your problem is just to answer the question. It does not really matter, for your purposes, Ms Gray is clever enough to know the difference and to address the issue whether they came in as a result of a settlement, or as a result of a contract, or any other matter. Mr Herbert is asking you whether they came in as a dedicated team and to do that work. The answer is yes or no.
PN516
THE WITNESS: Yes.
**** LLOYD OWEN HILL XXN MR HERBERT
PN517
MR HERBERT: All right. The P&H employees are there - the reason for their existence on that site, is under a contract to maintain P&H equipment, is that right?---Yes.
PN518
That is what they do. They maintain the P&H dragline?---No, that's - they do many tasks. They do what is needed to make sure that the sale of the product that we produce goes through at the lowest cost. They don't - they aren't specifically on the P&H equipment on the dragline and the shovel. They do whatever is needed to maintain a ton of coal at the lowest cost.
PN519
Are you saying that P&H employees who are there under the life-cycle maintenance contract have a roving brief across the whole of the Bulga mine to do whatever maintenance work might be asked of them?---Yes.
PN520
Is that right?---Yes.
PN521
I suggest that is not true?---I strongly disagree with what you said.
PN522
While they are roving across the site, who is maintaining the P&H dragline?---They prioritise what is needed. The supervisor at the start of the shift - the supervisor is given a list of priorities for that shift as to what they believe is the right work-load for the amount of people who are there, and what they therefore do is prioritise the work, and if it is needed that they work on the P&H equipment, well, they work on it, but if the priority is on trucks, or is on dozers, that's what's needed.
PN523
Well, I suggest that the occasions when a P&H person might be called upon to assist in some emergency situation with a truck, or a dozer, would be extremely rare, and would only be in either some sort of emergency situation, or some situation where the mine owner might have been caught short?---I disagree with you.
**** LLOYD OWEN HILL XXN MR HERBERT
PN524
The whole purpose of P&H employees being on site - in fact, the sole purpose of them being on site is to maintain the life-cycle maintenance contract - the 10-year life-cycle maintenance contract as engineering support for the P&H manufactured equipment. That is their sole purpose of being on the site?---I disagree.
PN525
Can I take you to your statement, please? You have referred in paragraph 10 of your statement to "P&H employees are commencing work at the Bath House." Everybody on the site - everyone working on the site, regardless of what they do generally commences their work at or about the Bath House, is that right?---That's correct.
PN526
It is because the Bath House, being what it is, people need to get changed into work clothes, or get their dirty boots on, or something of that kind, the Bath House is the place where that is done?---Yes.
PN527
Is that right?---Yes.
PN528
You say there BCM hard hats. BCM issued hard hats to everybody on site at one stage as part of their safety campaign, did they not?---They've issued - they issued hard hats to everyone. I don't know the reasons as to why, but everyone got issued a hard hat. Everyone who was on-site at the time was given a hard hat.
PN529
Yes, that is right, and it was part of the safety campaign, I think, that you spoke about earlier there's certain work safe or C-safe - - -
PN530
MS GRAY: C-safe.
PN531
MR HERBERT: - - - campaign that you referred earlier in evidence?---Yes.
**** LLOYD OWEN HILL XXN MR HERBERT
PN532
Is that right? It was to raise the awareness of safety on the site by Bulga coal management?---Yes.
PN533
Bulga coal management, being the mine operator, has overall responsibility for the safety of every single person who walks onto that lease, have they not?---That's correct.
PN534
That would include me, or Ms Gray, or anybody else who wandered in there for any purpose at all?---That's correct.
PN535
You have said also that the P&H employees can use the crib rooms. In fact, there is an area provided by P&H, is there not for their own staff at Bulga?---I don't know. They have a site shed.
PN536
Yes. They have their own site shed, but they are allowed to use - they are not forbidden to use the Bulga crib room?---No, well, people on our crew have crib with us.
PN537
Yes, and you say that they are subject to all - this is again paragraph 10:
PN538
...subject to all transport rules, coal mine regulations, management rules, mine site inductions, and direction of open cut examiners.
PN539
Everybody who walks onto that site is subject to those rules, are they not?---That's correct.
PN540
Again, it wouldn't matter if it was the accountant, or the law, or the Telstra person come to fix the phone tower, every single one of them are subject to all of those rules you have mentioned there?---That's right.
**** LLOYD OWEN HILL XXN MR HERBERT
PN541
There's no magic in that in relation to the P&H people, they are not singled out to be made subject to those regulations, are they?---No, no that's - - -
PN542
That is again, part of the mine safety legislation and regulations that they have to be made subject to all of those rules?---That's correct.
PN543
"They have the use of the employee car-park." Well, again, that is part of the safe organisation to make sure that private cars are kept in a safe place and away from the mine workings, is that right?---That's correct.
PN544
The uniforms they wear are P&H uniforms?---That's correct.
PN545
Now, you say, in paragraph 11, "they use mine site maintenance equipment as and when required." There is some equipment situated in the workshop on the mine site which for some years has been significantly under-utilised. As you say, the on-site maintenance workforce has fallen away dramatically in recent years, is that so?---That's correct.
PN546
So there is equipment there which is owned by Bulga but not being used very much?---Well, it's a task needed. It's what is needed to do the job. So that's, in answer to your question, you might - some piece of equipment you might only use once a year, but it's a necessary piece of equipment to repair that function on a machine.
PN547
So the mine owner has various bits of maintenance equipment sitting around, and contractors can use it providing they are only hiring their own, or buying their own?---That's correct.
PN548
But generally speaking contractors, particularly specialist contractors such as the P and H people bring their own tools?---Their own?
**** LLOYD OWEN HILL XXN MR HERBERT
PN549
Tools?---Hand tools are we talking or - - -
PN550
And other significant - all manner of equipment. Generally P and H provides their own?---Well, I don't know, like all I know is that they utilise the machinery in the workshop like the overhead crane and the press and other things as to - I don't know, because I haven't been down around the drag line since they've been doing their - we've had - - -
PN551
But an overhead crane by its very nature is built in to a shed?---That's correct.
PN552
Again, we are talking a gantry?---Yes.
PN553
Is that right, so that if there is one in the shed and they need to pick up a - take a heavy motor out of something you wouldn't expect that they would build their own shed and put their own overhead crane in, they would use one already there?---That's right.
PN554
And the same with a press, a press is a very large heavy piece of equipment?---That's right.
PN555
And you only need it occasionally?---Yes.
PN556
And if there is one on site rather than a contractor bringing their own on site it would be much more economical, wouldn't it, just to use the one that was there?---Well, it's - we - we don't - we don't distinguish between contractors and workforce, like we work together as a team to try and get, to try and make the mine as profitable and an enjoyable place to work for everyone. So we try and make sure that there's no distinction.
PN557
You have referred to the crane hire arrangement and you say that BCM has a crane hire arrangement, that P&H employs access?---Yes.
**** LLOYD OWEN HILL XXN MR HERBERT
PN558
Are you aware of the commercial arrangements between P and H and the crane hire company?---No, no.
PN559
You are not in a position to contradict the evidence that was read out to you from Mr Freeburn, are you, that in fact, Harnischfeger makes it own arrangements directly with the crane hire company and does not utilise the BCM arrangements?---Yes, I wasn't - - -
PN560
MS GRAY: Your Honour, I didn't actually read that part out to Mr Hill. I read the part out about consumables.
PN561
MR HERBERT: I'm sorry, I will take that back. It was mentioned to you that there had been some evidence given in these proceedings I think, but I will withdrawn all that and start again. Mr Freeburn has said that in fact the position is that P&H has its own commercial arrangements with the crane hire company, it hires its own cranes and pays them itself. You are not in a position to contradict that?---I - the only basis that I can make a judgment on with cranes is that I have been in the workshop and when P&H, when a P&H employee has tried to get a crane and was unable to get a crane and the supervisor redirected one from another area and I don't - as I to the way its charged I have no idea of how it's charged or how the arrangement works but I know of - I know of in one instance where there was a crane that was over the washery that was being used on a job and the priority was to get - I think it was a shovel at the time - was to get the shovel going and they couldn't access a crane so they redirected that crane from another job to that job.
PN562
And I suggest to you if something like that occurred it would come off hire from Bulger and it would go on hire for Harnischfeger and Harnischfeger would be invoiced for that and pay for it. That is the arrangement?---I have no idea.
PN563
You have no idea about that?---No.
**** LLOYD OWEN HILL XXN MR HERBERT
PN564
And that Harnischfeger is required to meet its own crane hire charges as part of its LCM contract in relation to the drag line?---I don't have any idea as to how the cranes are paid.
PN565
The work that you talk about then was work on the bucket of the drag line, was it?---It was - from my memory, it was a shovel. It was a - there was a handrail broken as a matter of fact and there was a rock come off a face and damaged the handrail and therefore the shovel was done and they needed a crane at short notice to try and get the job done. We originally went down and started the job but the job was - because we assisted P&H to try and - because as I said, we only - we have to work with a small crew so we attempted to get it started and then P&H brought in other people to - because it was too big a job.
PN566
That shovel was part of the LCM contract, the drag line and the shovel - I should have mentioned earlier, the drag line and the shovel are part of the LCM contract, aren't they?---That's correct.
PN567
And this was damage to the shovel which was under the P&H contract?---Well, no, the damage done like that isn't - I think it's out - my knowledge of the contract is that damage that's done like that is outside of the contract. I think - my understanding is that when it's damaged by the operator it's outside of that contract.
PN568
But the shovel itself was a P&H manufactured item?---That's correct.
PN569
And it was ordinarily maintained by P&H as part of its LCM contact?---Well, it's in the same boat as the drag line. The machine was delivered on site and was maintained by the Bulger Coal employees for a number of years and then a settlement of that - of the drag line claim, they then - P&H then took over that machine.
PN570
And that the damage that you are talking about that was done from which the crane was required was damage to the P&H manufactured shovel?---Yes.
**** LLOYD OWEN HILL XXN MR HERBERT
PN571
And P&H came in and brought its people in to repair the - its own shovel?---Yes.
PN572
And you say your understanding is that didn't come under the LCM contract even though it was the same machine?---Yes. My understanding of the contract is that any damage that's done that's borne by the operator, is outside of that but that's only my understanding of it.
PN573
Now, you then say in paragraph 12:
PN574
There's a full time P&H supervisor working day shift Monday to Friday.
PN575
You say:
PN576
This person is integrated with direct mine site maintenance management.
PN577
That P&H supervisor is engaged in supervising the P&H employee, he is in relation to the maintenance of the P&H equipment, is he not?---That paragraph 12 was in relation to that - the P&H full time supervisor he attends the - we have a - what's called the 9.30 supervisors' meeting, he attends all the supervisors' meetings along with all the mine site supervisors. So that they get to prioritise their jobs and update and keep everyone informed as to where they are.
PN578
Yes, but his job - that person you have referred, that is a full time supervisor employed by P&H. He is there to supervise the P&H employees to make sure that P&H equipment is properly maintained in accordance with the contractual obligations to Bulger?---That's correct.
**** LLOYD OWEN HILL XXN MR HERBERT
PN579
Because the equipment that he maintains is a reasonably important piece of equipment on the site he attends meetings with other people to update them and be updated about what is happening on the site generally, is that right?---Well, all equipment - I couldn't - I could not say that one piece of machinery is more important than other pieces of machinery. All full time contractors who have supervisors on site attend them same meetings. The - you can't say that one piece of machinery is more important than another, that's - it's all the same and the necessary - when you look at a coal mine you can't pull one machine out because all machines - all machines are needed to get the product out.
PN580
In the last sentence in paragraph 12 you say:
PN581
Outside of these hours, that is, outside day shift Monday to Friday, P&H employees are subject to the immediate direction of BCM shift supervisors.
PN582
Can I suggest that they are not subject to any direction whatsoever in relation to the work that they perform. Their direction comes from P&H, not from BCM?---No, that's incorrect. That's incorrect. They, at the start of every shift we have a toolbox talk, as I explained earlier, and the supervisor, the Bulger Coal management supervisor will ask - after he's been through the safety talk and the update of where we are with tonnages and highlight safety issues he will then ask each of the contract companies what work they have on and he then prioritises whether that work should be done or not and, as I said, in the last 2 weeks with - because of the short term needs of the business where they have sent two people out of the maintenance in to production - he has emphasised that he would have to look at what they are doing because they might be needed on other duties.
PN583
Well, I suggest that that is not correct, Mr Hill, that they receive no direction at all as to the nature of the work they do from the Bulger Coal management. That direction comes from P&H management?---No, that's incorrect.
**** LLOYD OWEN HILL XXN MR HERBERT
PN584
The P&H supervisor?---That's incorrect.
PN585
Are you suggesting that the BCM supervisors are discussing taking the P&H maintenance employees off the P&H equipment as and when they see fit and just distributing them around the yard willy nilly as BCM requires them?---That's - that's what - - -
PN586
Is that what?--- - - - that's what I'm suggesting, that's what I'm saying.
PN587
Has that what is been discussed?---I'm sorry?
PN588
Is that what is being discussed now, is it, or is that what is happening now?---That's what - that's what happens on a day-to-day basis.
PN589
I will take you to paragraph 15 of your statement:
PN590
P&H employees undertake all necessary mine site inductions and training, the subject of all Coal Mine regulations, transport and management rules, directions of open cut examiners, etcetera, etcetera.
PN591
Again, that is a repeat of the earlier statement you made which applies to everyone that sets foot on a mine lease?---That's correct.
PN592
They are now required to attend safety talks. Again, anyone working on the lease has to attend a safety talk.
PN593
Is that right?---No, that - there, no, that's - they're specific. We - we're not - as the occ health and safety chairman, when I done the Be Safe process it wasn't - everyone who come on site doesn't go through that. It was - they - it was the company only run through the workforce and the full time contractors. So there was - - -
**** LLOYD OWEN HILL XXN MR HERBERT
PN594
Everybody working out in the mine itself?---Every - yes, that's right.
PN595
In the mine area itself?---Yes, yes, but there was staff - well, there was a lot of staff that weren't involved because they didn't believe it was appropriate to run as an example, the accountant, and that type of staff person wasn't involved in that Be Safe process.
PN596
It is all the people working out in the mining area, outside the office?---Yes, yes.
PN597
Went through the Be Safe training?---That's correct.
PN598
Now, you say P&H employees have been given mine site training in overhead cranes and 12 ton trucks, is that right?---Yes.
PN599
Is that what you say?---Well - - -
PN600
Again, the use of an overhead crane is necessary for the P&H employees to do the work that they do on the P&H equipment, isn't that right?---Well, the - yes, that's correct.
PN601
And the transport, the primary transport vehicle used by P&H employees, again, in order to maintain the P&H equipment is a 12 ton truck?---That's correct.
PN602
So they need to be trained on that in order to discharge their life cycle maintenance contract?---Well, also we've - we use the - we've used - and I'm not trained in the 12 ton truck and with me not being trained on it we've utilised the P&H employees to do two other duties and because I'm not trained on the machine we've had to utilise the P&H person to operate that machine for us while we do other duties.
**** LLOYD OWEN HILL XXN MR HERBERT
PN603
Well, who owns this machine, whose machine is the 12 ton truck?---We - my understanding is it's P&H.
PN604
So P&H brings their 12 ton truck on the site and people are - the P&H employees are trained how to operate the P&H truck, is that right?---That's correct.
PN605
And what are you saying, that occasionally you ask P&H if they would move something for you while their truck was there?---Well, we've - yes, we've utilised - that's all I'm highlighting. I'm just highlighting that we use their truck also but because we're not trained to be able to operate the machine we have to access the P&H employees to operate it.
PN606
And how often does that happen?---It happens fairly regularly in the sense that - and I can give you an example - there is a bar that hangs down between the two back wheels of a truck and that bar when bent can cause tyre damage, when the truck drivers reverse on to the dump, the bar goes in to the dirt and it bends it and to do the - to do that repair down the pit with that 12 ton truck is a fairly small job, in the sense, it only takes 1 to 2 hours, but to do the job in the workshop to bring the machine up to the workshop and do it with a fork-lift it's just a lot more time. So we tend to utilise the 12 ton truck to do that, especially that job.
PN607
You say that you operate that truck - not you but Bulga Management employees?---No, I am not trained.
PN608
But other employees of Bulga Coal use that truck from time to time?---No, I don't think - there is no Bulga Coal employees trained in the truck that is why we have to use the P&H employees to operate it.
PN609
So you borrow them for those purposes?---Yes.
**** LLOYD OWEN HILL XXN MR HERBERT
PN610
The truck, do you know what the charge out arrangements are in relation - - -?---No.
PN611
I see. You did mention before about the diesel arrangements, do you know what the commercial arrangements are for the provision of diesel as part of the life cycle maintenance contract?---No.
PN612
You have just seen contractors filling up with diesel out of the company pump?---It was highlighted. I went and spoke to the company about it because the contractors were accessing the diesel and the company had spoken to the workforce about diesel going missing and we just wanted to be aware - wanted the company to be aware that the contractors were utilising it and that was the reason why.
PN613
The company's response was they get diesel a lot cheaper if they buy it in bulk and they have made it available for the use of contractors?---That is correct, yes.
PN614
It saves the contractors buying it at a higher price and billing them for it at a higher price?---I don't know the commercial arrangements. I can only tell you what I know as far as what was said to me.
PN615
All of the arrangements that you have talked about in paragraph 15, for example, are all related to the overhead safety of the - the overall safety on the site, are they not?---Yes.
PN616
Bulga Coal Management, I think you have already told us, has the overall responsibility to make sure that everybody on the site observes safety rules?---Yes.
PN617
Including all contactors employees and effectively including everyone that walks onto the site?---That's correct.
**** LLOYD OWEN HILL XXN MR HERBERT
PN618
PN619
MS GRAY: Mr Hill, you said that there is six contractor employees and six direct Bulga employees on your shift?---That is correct.
PN620
You attend the toolbox talks at the commencement of each of your shift with those six contractors and six - five other Bulga employees?---That's correct.
PN621
So when you gave evidence in cross-examination about what is said and done by the BCM, the Bulga supervisor, in respect to give directions to the P&H employees and other contractor employees, you attend those and you are there and you hear that for yourself?---Yes.
PN622
Are there different levels of induction at Bulga and on coalmines depending on whether you simply visit the site or whether you are working on the site?---My understanding is there is three levels of inductions. There is the first level which is a task specific, so a contractor can come on site but he must go with a Bulga Coal employee and be under his immediate direction. The next level is restricted which puts the onus on the person to stay within an area, as an example, of the person works in the washroom, he must stick to that restricted area of the washroom and then there is the full induction which means that person is competent to go across all levels and to access everywhere on the site.
PN623
What level do the P&H employees have?---They are at the full level where they can access the whole site.
PN624
That means that they do not have to be accompanied?---That is correct.
**** LLOYD OWEN HILL RXN MS GRAY
PN625
Who owns the drag line and shovel at Bulga?---My understanding is Bulga Coal owns the drag line and shovel.
PN626
So when Mr Herbert was saying P&H shovel, that is who manufactured it but it is actually owned by your employer?---That's correct. P&H manufacture the shovels, the shovel and drag line. They then sold the machinery to Bulga Coal and we fully maintained it for a number of years. There was a core group of the workforce who worked exclusively on the drag line and shovel and then approximately 2-1/2 to 3 years ago the company saw fit to go into an arrangement and because of a settlement of a claim that was made on P&H and those numbers were reduced and we no longer maintain those machinery any more.
PN627
The "be safe" talks that you gave as chairman of the occ health and safety committee, that was provided by Bulga to Bulga's employees and you said full-time contractors?---All full-time contractors who - - -
PN628
So there would also be ad hoc contractors who would not have been given that course?---That is correct. It was only the full-time contractors who were run through that process.
PN629
Do the Harnischfeger people fall into the full-time contractor category?---Yes.
PN630
Thank you, Mr Hill. Nothing further, thank you, your Honour.
PN631
PN632
PN633
MS GRAY: Mr Alexander could you please give your full name and address for the record?---My name is Paul Alexander (address supplied).
PN634
Have you prepared a witness statement for these proceedings?---Yes, I have.
PN635
Do you have a copy of it with you?---Yes, I have.
PN636
Is it true and correct to the best of your knowledge?---There is just - to the best of my knowledge. There is just a paragraph in there that I do not think is word correct.
PN637
Which paragraph is that?---Number 11.
PN638
What would you seek to change in that paragraph?---Well, I would leave out - I would write "we can order cranes and do so through a crane supplier" and delete that portion in front of it.
PN639
So you want to delete the words "a set price contractor that Bulga has with"?---Mm.
PN640
Now, with that correction, is that witness now true and correct to the best of your knowledge?---Yes, I have no more changes.
PN641
I am sorry, I did no hear your answer?
PN642
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: He has no more changes.
PN643
MS GRAY: So it is true and correct to the best of your knowledge?---To the best of my knowledge.
**** PAUL ALEXANDER XN MS GRAY
PN644
PN645
MS GRAY: Now, Mr Alexander, does paragraph 11, the one that you have just amended - can you outline to us the process of crane hire as a Harnischfeger employee at Bulga?---Yes. As required I would order cranes as they come - if I needed to do repairs in breakdowns and I would just order a crane by ringing the supplier direct. If I can get hold of a crane, for example, it would be up to our supervisor to supply - supervisor meaning Bulga Management, to supply the crane if I can't get hold of the supply that we use in which case if I can't get hold of them, that is what will happen.
PN646
You are working on back-shift? You are on the same roster as Mr Hill, are you?---No, I don't recall working with Lloyd.
PN647
You are on a different roster?---I am on a rotating roster, on a 7 day roster following a shift in designation in an A group on the shift roster.
PN648
So you work what, day shift and afternoon and - - -?---Rotating shifts, yes.
PN649
When you are on afternoon or night shift who is your direct supervisor?---Afternoon or night shift, our direct supervisors are normally supervisors from Bulga Coal who are on the shift and they are called 135 supervisors. If our P&H employers are there, we respond to them but normally we respond directly to the Bulga supervisors when no one is about.
PN650
Your P&H supervisor is Mr David Freeburn?---Yes, David is our site project manager and supervisor.
**** PAUL ALEXANDER XN MS GRAY
PN651
Is there any P&H supervisor apart from Mr Freeburn at Bulga?---We are directed to also take orders from David Law, who is a purchasing officer come supervisor.
PN652
Mr Law and Mr Freeburn work day shift only?---Yes.
PN653
Monday to Friday?---Monday to Friday.
PN654
You are on the same roster as Mr Hill, being a 7 day rotating shift roster?---Yes.
PN655
So you work weekends and back-shifts and day shift?---Yes.
PN656
PN657
MR HERBERT: Well, just on that subject, Mr Alexander, when you say your P&H supervisor is Mr Freeburn or in his absence, Mr Law, who tells you what your job is to do from time to time. The P&H supervisor or the Bulga supervisor?---My job is to do maintenance according to what Mr Freeburn requires as a supervisor and he asks me to report to the Bulga people.
PN658
So you report to the Bulga people because Mr Freeburn asks you to?---Yes, because that is - when he is not present we have got to report to them.
PN659
To tell them what you have done?---Yes.
PN660
All right. Well, just also can I ask you this. You say that after you took up full-time work at Bulga - have you got your statement with you?---Yes.
**** PAUL ALEXANDER XXN MR HERBERT
PN661
Paragraph 3?---Yes.
PN662
When I was interviewed I was told my job would be on the BCM contract at Bulga.
PN663
That is the life cycle maintenance contract, is that right?---Yes.
PN664
That is in relation to the drag line and the shovel at Bulga, is that right?---Yes.
PN665
They are P&H manufactured items?---P&H manufactured?
PN666
Yes?---They are the machinery P&H designed, do you mean?
PN667
Yes and built?---Built on site, yes.
PN668
You say you were successful in getting that position and you have worked on the Bulga site since then exclusively with the exception of in the last month you have been asked to work a couple of shifts at the Hunter Valley operations. So you have been asked in the last month or the last month before you made your statement, which was in September '04, so back in August-September you had then been asked to do some rotational shifts out in the Hunter Valley operation which is different from the Bulga operation, is that right?---That is correct.
PN669
Can you bring us up to date there. Have you done any more shifts since that time, since you wrote this statement?---No.
PN670
How long were you rotating out in the Hunter Valley?---Two occasions.
**** PAUL ALEXANDER XXN MR HERBERT
PN671
Two occasions, all right. Now, you say you were on shift work at Bulga and your roster follows that of the mine site employees, is that so?---Would you repeat that please.
PN672
Paragraph 4, you are on shift work?---Yes.
PN673
Your roster follows that of the mine site employees. P&H has organised its roster so that the roster of employees like you, for example, matches the rosters of the mining employees, is that right?---That is correct.
PN674
So that the P&H employees and the mining employees work - - -?---Identical.
PN675
- - - identical shifts, is that right?---Yes.
PN676
That allows for good communication between the P&H employees and the mining employees because you are working the same shifts?---Well, I don't know about good communication because it was quite difficult to work in that first instance. As far as good communication, I am instructed by P&H.
PN677
Yes, that is right?---We were not accepted on site by the mining workers.
PN678
Yes, I am sorry, I was not intending to deal with sort of personalities and who accepted whom but it is easier to have - assuming you can have a working relationship, it is easier to have a working relationship with the mining employees if you are working a whole shift with that group of employees who are operating the machinery, would you accept that?---I don't understand what that means.
PN679
I will not pursue that. Have you since you commenced work on the LCM contract, as you have described there in your statement, have your duties changed much?---No.
**** PAUL ALEXANDER XXN MR HERBERT
PN680
Been pretty consistent?---Yes.
PN681
And you work, is it, 12.5 hour shifts?---12.5 hour shifts.
PN682
All right. How much of that 12.5 hours is spent working on the drag line or the shovel?---Actual work?
PN683
Yes?---In our timetables we write an equivalent amount to share our work load according to what's required in our pay sheets. We'll do 6 hours and 6 hours, 6-1/2.
PN684
All right. So you divide your day between the drag line and the shovel do you?---That's right.
PN685
All right, and - - -?---That's for our costing sake.
PN686
Yes, and do you do any other work that is not on the drag line or the shovel?---Upon as requested in maintenance, we're basically there to keep two machines working full time.
PN687
Your job, the reason why you are there and the reason for your job is to keep those two machines working to the maximum extent possible, is that right?---Yes, maximum extent, to no breakdowns. We're their to bandaid-strip and order what's required to make the machine productive all the time.
PN688
Yes, but your focus is on those two machines?---Yes.
**** PAUL ALEXANDER XXN MR HERBERT
PN689
Do you do any work just generally out around the Bulga site that isn't focused on those machines?---On anything to do with that machine as far as gear boxes, electrical items that need replacement, electrical updates to its running, we fix in the field and then go and install on the machine to make it work. Like, if it breaks down, we take a portion out and repair it and then we fix it and then we put it back in.
PN690
Do you have an on-site workshop that if you need to take a piece of the machine and take it away to work on it in a workshop situation - - -?---Yes, we work in our - on our Bulga site.
PN691
All right. Has Bulga Mine got its own workshop?---Bulga Mine has a workshop.
PN692
Do you work in that workshop?---I have worked in that workshop.
PN693
Does P&H have its own on-site workshop?---They intend to build one.
PN694
Do they have one at the moment?---We're using site containers.
PN695
So the site containers are P&H containers that have been put on site for you to use as a workshop facility?---Well, makeshift.
PN696
Makeshift workshop facility, is that right?---Like any contractor.
PN697
But from time to time you have used the Bulga workshop have you?---Yes.
PN698
All right. Now, you say then that your job is to do whatever is necessary to bandaid, as you put it, those two pieces of P&H equipment or P&H manufactured equipment on the site?---My word.
**** PAUL ALEXANDER XXN MR HERBERT
PN699
Are you ever called upon to do anything that isn't directed towards those two machines?---No, not that I recall.
PN700
Can I take you to paragraph 4 and 5? You talk about tool box talks. Those tool box talks are conducted by the workshop maintenance supervisor. What are the tool box talks about? What do they tell you? What is the subject of the tool box talks generally?---Subject relating to a safety analysis of the day prior to commencing work. For example, the roads might be changed in accessing the drag line or shovel because they've moved or they've dug a new access route and I might have been off work for 3 days prior to coming to the shift and when coming on there's a new access scenario.
PN701
All right. So they tell you things you need to know?---Safety, yes.
PN702
Safety issues and things you need to know to be able to get around to do your job on the drag line and the shovel, is that right, such as access and things like that?---As far as access is concerned, yes.
PN703
Now, you say also in paragraph 4 that the maintenance supervisor for Bulga directs your work when the P&H supervisor is not there at weekends and back shifts. To what extent does the Bulga maintenance supervisor direct you what you are to do in terms of your work?---In terms of my work, firstly he asks us what we're up to in our work and he has actually organised us to assist in Bulga work repairs.
PN704
Such as?---We've had to grind teeth off a bucket where normally it's to fit adaptors on the face of the bucket and fit them on.
PN705
That is the bucket of the shovel?---Of the shovel.
PN706
All right. Now, you say he has asked you to do Bulga work. Why is that Bulga work?---Well, it wasn't really in our work originally to do bucket teeth and repairs. It was always to be Bulga's work.
**** PAUL ALEXANDER XXN MR HERBERT
PN707
All right. So it is still work on the bucket?---Yes.
PN708
But it is outside the original scope of the original contract is it?---Yes, yes, and then - yes.
PN709
All right. So he has asked you occasionally to do jobs like that?---Yes.
PN710
How often would that happen?---Well, it now happens at a regular occurrence.
PN711
Like, such as?---Once a week.
PN712
Yes, all right. So once a week he will ask you to do something on the drag line of a - - -?---No, it's been accepted as a routine job now that we do it - - -
PN713
As part of the maintenance that you do on the drag line and bucket?---Yes. It's been sort of given it to us.
PN714
As part of P&Hs contract, do you think?---Well, I don't know about how they made the contract but it's part of our work that's been given.
PN715
All right, but it is always on the P&H manufactured equipment that you are asked to do this extra work?---Yes, what I've just described, yes.
PN716
What you have just described is happening reasonably regularly but outside what you originally did when you first started the contract?---Yes.
PN717
Now, in paragraph 5 you say you have received training in black coal mining competencies and of coal mining industry induction and induction to Bulga and Hunter Valley. They are all safety inductions aren't they?---Style of safety - like the inductions I have received were electrical high voltage and yes, safety induction.
**** PAUL ALEXANDER XXN MR HERBERT
PN718
Safety induction and you have been trained along with Bulga open-cut employees in overhead cranes and 12-ton trucks. Do you know who organised that training and who paid for it?---No.
PN719
I suggest that Harnischfeger organised it and paid for it.
PN720
MS GRAY: Your Honour, he just said he didn't know.
PN721
MR HERBERT: Are you able to contradict that?---I don't know who actually paid for it.
PN722
All right, and the overhead cranes are something that you need to be able to use to do your work on the drag line and the bucket and the shovel?---The overhead cranes?
PN723
Yes?---To get a ticket in operating overhead cranes in - the ones that are in the drag line are overhead cranes.
PN724
And you need to get a ticket to operate them?---That's right.
PN725
In order to do your maintenance work on the - - -?---To assist in moving machinery about.
PN726
Yes, and the 12 ton truck is the main transport equipment provided by Harnischfeger to the site?---That is correct.
PN727
And you need to be able to operate that again to be able to do your job properly on the drag line and on the shovel?---On moving equipment, yes.
**** PAUL ALEXANDER XXN MR HERBERT
PN728
Yes. P&H supplies you - just going over to the page in paragraph 5, P&H supplies you with your clothing and your footwear but Boulder gave you a hard hat, is that right? Is that the position?---True.
PN729
Paragraph 10, you have Bulga employees assist you as necessary. That is assist you in doing your work on the drag line and the shovel. If you are short handed and there's some urgent situation that they will send someone along to expedite the work?---True.
PN730
Today we've heard that they actually own the machine?---Who?
PN731
That Bulga Coal management owns the machine but Harnischfeger are - - -?---I don't know.
PN732
You don't know that? All right. Now, you have changed paragraph 11 now so that you say you order cranes, you do so through a crane supplier. Harnischfeger has its own commercial arrangements with the crane supplier and you are allowed to order up cranes on those arrangements, is that so?---As requested, I order the crane.
PN733
Yes, and if it turns out that you can't get one yourself through your crane supplier, you notify Bulga?---That's true.
PN734
And they see if they can whistle one up through their supplier. Is that what happens?---Well, that's true.
PN735
But you don't know - if that happens, that is if Bulga manages to source a crane where you can't, you don't know who pays for it or what the commercial arrangements are there?---I've got no idea.
**** PAUL ALEXANDER XXN MR HERBERT
PN736
Okay. Now, consumables in the store, in relation to consumables, do you know what the commercial arrangements are as to if you go into the store and take material out of the store as to who pays for what?---No.
PN737
What is the usual arrangement in relation to if you go and take consumables out of the store?---I sign out a docket requested by my supervisor or the supervisor from Bulga and they can give me consumables.
PN738
All right. So you have to present a docket do you, or sign a document?---Yes.
PN739
Identifying yourself as a P&H person?---Yes.
PN740
And you sign the consumables out for you as a P&H person?---For the machine that I need to source the gear.
PN741
For the machine you need. So that those dockets presumably as an accounting mechanism, at the end of the day those dockets could be collected together and - - -?---I don't know where they go.
PN742
No, but the paperwork, you generate the paperwork that somebody can tell at the end of the day or the week how much you have taken out for P&H out of the Bulga store?---True.
PN743
Is that right?---True.
PN744
So if there's a charge-back involved, that is back to Harnischfeger, that you generate the paperwork to do that?---True.
PN745
You also say that in paragraph 11, at the end of the paragraph 11:
**** PAUL ALEXANDER XXN MR HERBERT
PN746
We have our own orders come through the store as a pick-up or delivery point.
PN747
When you order parts through P&H, from an off-site source, sometimes they come straight to you, sometimes they come to the store as a drop-off point, is that the position?---That's true.
PN748
And sometimes the Bulga store is used as a convenient drop-off point for parts that P&H have ordered?---That's all that that expressed.
PN749
That is all you intended to suggest, right. Now, you have been told - paragraph 12 you have been told you have been engaged for the life of the Bulga contract, which is 10 years. That is your expectation is it? And so that you see yourself as being a P&H employee on that site for the life of the P&H arrangements on that site?---Yes.
PN750
Now, in paragraph 13 you refer to the fact that you are not required to return to the P&H workshop but in any event that workshop was closed about a year ago, is that right?---That's true.
PN751
You report to your P&H workplace, which is on the Bulga site?---That's true.
PN752
And would it be fair to say, Mr Alexander, that given the size of the equipment that is being maintained, it is not practical 99 per cent of the time to transport that equipment off site, that is away from Bulga, to have repairs and maintenance done? It all needs to be done on site?---Yes.
PN753
All right, and it couldn't be done by way of having people come to the site, pick things up and take them off site, could it, not the work that you do?---In respect to - - -
**** PAUL ALEXANDER XXN MR HERBERT
PN754
The drag line and the shovel maintenance works?---Well, no.
PN755
PN756
MS GRAY: Mr Alexander, do you access any free issue consumables from the store?---Free issues, I do, yes, meaning?
PN757
So they are ones that you - sorry, meaning?---Meaning cans of spray, or gloves that sometimes we don't have, or in stock that we need, etcetera, like that, yes.
PN758
Do you fill out a sign-off for anything on a free issue?---I have to fill out the form, signed by supervisor, hand it in.
PN759
So you do that for every single thing you take from the store?---Every - all items.
PN760
A bolt, a nut?---Exactly.
PN761
I take it from your answer from Mr Herbert that your understanding is that the life of an agreement - DLCM didn't cover the buckets of the dragline or shovel. That was continued to be done by the Bulga maintenance employees?---Yes.
PN762
More recently it looks like you are starting to take over some of that work as well?---Looks like we're doing it now.
PN763
Who is the crane supplier for P&H for your employer?---Well, we regularly - - -
**** PAUL ALEXANDER RXN MS GRAY
PN764
Who do you get your crane through?--- - - - regularly use Bowers who are called Loon Logistics these days, but we can source whoever is necessary. See, I've actually got Muswellbrook Hire on different occasions.
PN765
So are you asked by your supervisor - - -?---My supervisor.
PN766
- - - to utilise a particular company, and then if there's nothing available to go to another, or can you just ring up whoever you feel like?---If - no, I don't ring who I feel like. I ring our first supplier, Bowers.
PN767
The first supplier is Bowers?---If I can't get hold of anything else I ring my supervisor telling him so and he tells me sources source it from ..... or whoever.
PN768
That supervisor is who?---Dave Freeburn or the - when I can't reach Dave I have to speak to the Bulga's supervisor, and he will tell me the same - - -
PN769
Do you try to reach - - -?--- - - - same thing: can you source it from someone else?
PN770
Do you try to reach Dave Freeburn when you are on afternoon or night shift?---Always at first - second call, or first call when I can't respond or do the - if I can't get hold of who I need I always try and ring him, tell him what is going on. He's my - - -
PN771
Who is the supplier of cranes for Bulga?---Well, I've seen both groups of people, Bowers and Muswellbrook cranes there. I can't tell you that. I don't know.
PN772
So you don't know who Bulga has the contract with for supply?---I've got no idea.
**** PAUL ALEXANDER RXN MS GRAY
PN773
There are no further questions, thank you, your Honour.
PN774
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DRAKE: Thank you. You are excused Mr Alexander.
PN775
PN776
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DRAKE: Do you have your other two witnesses waiting?
PN777
MS GRAY: I'm sorry, your Honour?
PN778
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DRAKE: Do you have your other two witnesses waiting?
PN779
MS GRAY: Yes, we do, your Honour.
PN780
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DRAKE: I will take a short break. We will take them after the break, is that all right?
PN781
MR HERBERT: Yes.
PN782
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DRAKE: You looked worried.
PN783
MR HERBERT: No, no. I'm just wondering if you made time for a coffee.
PN784
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DRAKE: We will take a break. You can call my chambers on 2577 when you are both back from coffee and I will come in.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.45am]
RESUMED [12.16pm]
PN785
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DRAKE: Ms Gray?
PN786
PN787
MS GRAY: Mr Eastley, could you please give your full name and address for the record?---Gary Robert Easterly, (address supplied).
PN788
Mr Eastley, have you prepared a witness statement for these proceedings?---Yes, I have.
PN789
Do you have a copy of it with you?---Yes.
PN790
Do you need to make any corrections to it?---Yes.
PN791
What are those corrections?---My name - my first name is spelt with one "R" instead of two, and in paragraph 6 the last sentence I would like to change it from: we can order cranes through a crane used by Bulga - crane supply used by Bulga - gear which we order comes through the store.
PN792
Okay, so you want to delete from that last sentence the words, "contract with Bulga has with the"?---Yes.
PN793
Insert: used by Bulga after supplier full stop, and the last sentence would then read: gear which we order comes through their store?---Yes.
PN794
Full stop. Thank you. Just while we are on that paragraph 6. Sorry, is that witness statement now true and correct to the best of your knowledge?---Yes.
PN795
**** GARY ROBERT EASTLEY XN MS GRAY
PN796
MS GRAY: Thank you. Mr Eastley, while we are on paragraph 6, the one that you just corrected, could you explain to us the process that you go through as an employee of Harnischfeger at Bulga with respect to both Crane Hire and the delivery of things through the store?---Well, we just order cranes as we need them. Just ring up the cane company.
PN797
You do that directly?---Yes, and if not, if we can't get a crane we will just see the mines supervisor and he will sort it out.
PN798
That is the Bulga supervisor?---Yes.
PN799
When you ring up the crane supplier, which crane company do you contact?---Bowers.
PN800
Which crane company does Bulga use?---They use Bowers, too.
PN801
When gear is delivered to the store what do you do with it if anything?---Well, we go and pick it up from the store and take it to our compound.
PN802
How do you do that?---With our ute or truck, it all depends what the size of it is.
PN803
Do you use any cranes or fork lifts?---Yes, well, if you need to use them, yes, if it's big enough.
PN804
Are they Harnischfeger equipment, or somebody else's?---No, it's the mines' equipment.
PN805
With the stores, do you access the stores for consumables?---Yes.
**** GARY ROBERT EASTLEY XN MS GRAY
PN806
Are you aware of free consumables?---Yes, yes.
PN807
What do you do when you access the store for consumables that aren't free consumables?---We have to see the mines supervisor and get him to sign it out - give the okay.
PN808
What about with the free consumables?---Well, we just tell them that we - what we want, and they say: go and get it.
PN809
Do you sign any paperwork for the free consumables?---No.
PN810
Have you ever been directed by the Bulga supervisor to perform work which is not part of DLCM contract?---Yes.
PN811
What work has that been? Do you have any examples?---Well, sometimes we work on the trucks, change a few - take a few pins out, and rock eject this because we've got a crane on the back of our truck, or help the miners do that.
PN812
Is that dump trucks?---Yes, yes. Help them with their trailing cables, and they are like gantries that actually hold the cable, so if they need a hand with them we just give them a hand. That's not actually part of our contract, but we just help them and assist them anyway.
PN813
Have you ever performed any work on the buckets to the dragline and shovel?---Yes, yes.
PN814
To your knowledge, are the buckets part of DLCM contact?---The buckets are but the teeth and adaptors aren't. That's part of the miners' but we just give them a hand anyway to do it.
**** GARY ROBERT EASTLEY XN MS GRAY
PN815
So that work has, since you've been at Bulga, usually been done by the Bulga maintenance employees?---Yes.
PN816
You give them a hand sometimes?---Yes.
PN817
Is that increasing at all of late?---Seems to be, yes, yes.
PN818
PN819
MR HERBERT: Mr Eastley, just in relation to that matter you were just asked about, your job is to maintain the - the reason for your employment, is to maintain the dragline and the shovel?---Yes.
PN820
Anything else you do that you just mentioned is either work which is on the dragline and shovel that you take outside DLCM contract, or you did mention two other matters as I took a note of that occasionally you'd work on trucks?---Yes.
PN821
Or did you say trailing cables?---Trailing cables, yes.
PN822
Yes, and they are two things that you say you have done work on that is not on the dragline, or the shovel?---Yes.
PN823
Is that right?---Yes.
PN824
How often would you do that?---It varies. It all depends if we've got work on, or if we - it's a bit slow with the dragline, or the shovel, we will - or we've got nothing in the compound we'll go and give them a hand if they ask us.
**** GARY ROBERT EASTLEY XXN MR HERBERT
PN825
It is very rare, isn't it? Very occasional that you do anything that isn't directly connected with the dragline, or the shovel?---It varies. It might be a couple of times a week, or might go a month without doing anything.
PN826
So it might be five or six times a year - six or eight times a year?---Possibly.
PN827
Maximum, and they are smaller jobs, if you do them. All up, maybe up to an hour?---I usually go a couple of hours. We did a job on a truck that was about two shifts. It went over two shifts.
PN828
Do you know what the commercial arrangements were in relation to that?---No. We just say - they give us a number - a work order number, I think it was, and we just had to put that on our time sheets.
PN829
I see. That was one job where you say you did two whole shifts on a truck?---There's a light in plant two, that was another job we had to do.
PN830
That is work that is done, you say, only if you have - your primary work isn't - there's nothing to be done, or nothing important needs to be done in relation to the maintenance of the dragline and the shovel, is that right?---Yes.
PN831
Or if you are sitting around your compound with nothing on, basically?---Yes.
PN832
Is that right? Now, in relation to that, P&H has its own compound on site?---Yes.
PN833
That is where you have a make-shift workshop?---You'd call it that, I suppose, yes.
**** GARY ROBERT EASTLEY XXN MR HERBERT
PN834
An area that can be used as a crib area, and that sort of thing?---Yes.
PN835
There's a demountable there for your own crib. So P&H have basically its own self-contained arrangements on site?---Yes.
PN836
You say in paragraph 6 of your statement, "We utilise their workshop on an as needed basis, using their equipment." That is not an everyday thing, is it? That just happens occasionally if they have - if there's something big you need like the press, or the gantry crane, or something, is that right?---Yes.
PN837
Otherwise you basically - people use the P&H equipment to do the P&H job?---Yes.
PN838
P&H supplies a 12-tonne truck?---Yes.
PN839
Which you are supposed to be using?---Mm.
PN840
And light vehicles, utilities, and things like that?---Yes.
PN841
All supplied by P&H?---Yes.
PN842
Essentially, again, you are a self-contained operation there. You can buy essentially - except for the possibility of having to go to the workshop occasionally for very big equipment, otherwise you are basically self-sufficient on that site?---Pretty much, yes.
PN843
Yes, and you have your own P&H supervisor?---During the week on day work, yes, but if we work weekends and night shift or supervisor is then the lines supervisor.
**** GARY ROBERT EASTLEY XXN MR HERBERT
PN844
The work that you need to do on the back shifts and the weekends has been directed in advance by your P&H supervisors, has it not?---To an extent, yes, but they don't know when the machines are going to break down so.
PN845
You have standing instructions in relation to what happens. If something is going to break down, you know what is required of you. You don't need a Bulga supervisor to tell you what to do, do you?---Not really, no.
PN846
No, if is your supervision is taken care of by P&H, and if something goes wrong on a back shift or a weekend your first call is to Mr Freeburn, even if he is not there, isn't?---No, we've got a 12/6 who is the open-cut examiner - tell him what is going on.
PN847
Yes, that is because the open-cut examiner needs to know everything that is going on on the site?---Yes, yes.
PN848
The next call then is to Mr Freeburn, because if you need some advice or instruction you have got to contact him?---Probably, yes.
PN849
Yes. So even if he is not there - - -
PN850
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Excuse me, could you just raise your voice a little, the air-conditioning is very noisy here and I'm struggling to hear you?---I'm sorry.
PN851
MR HERBERT: Your last answer was, "Probably, yes", is that right?---Yes.
PN852
So that even if Mr Freeburn is not physically there you still look to him as essentially your direct line of supervision?---Yes.
**** GARY ROBERT EASTLEY XXN MR HERBERT
PN853
Now, you were required to attend the daily toolbox talk and that is mostly about safety isn't it?---Yes, and they ask us what we've got on for the night.
PN854
Right, they ask you, they don't tell you?---No, they ask us, yes.
PN855
You know what you have got on - but essentially unforeseen breakdowns aside, you have essentially you have got your work mapped out for you in advance?---Yes.
PN856
You say Bulga tradesmen from time to time assist you in your work. Is that if you get overloaded with something that they will send somebody to help you if you need it?---Yes. Yes, there is only a fitter and an electrician and if you need any more, like, we - me and the chap on we haven't got our cherry picker ticket so we've got to get one of the miners to come down and drive the cherry picker, or the ..... work platform.
PN857
I see. That is done on an as needed basis, is it?---Yes.
PN858
You need to be able to - in order to do your work properly on the shovels and the drag lines you need to be able to move around the site fairly freely?---Yes.
PN859
Is that right?---Yes.
PN860
So you have done all the competencies necessary to enable you to be able to go unescorted around the sites?---Yes.
PN861
But again, that all relates back to the fact that you need to be able to do that to get around to do your primary job, is that right?---Yes.
**** GARY ROBERT EASTLEY XXN MR HERBERT
PN862
You say in paragraph 8: sometimes you eat your crib with the direct Bulga mine site tradesmen in their crib, but you don't need to do that, you have your own crib arrangements in the demountable if you want it?---Yes, we have our own facility, yes.
PN863
Yes. Now, in paragraph 10 you talk about the 10 mine site employees were additional to the Bulga employees. They perform P&H work on other coal mining sites, you say, in the Hunter Valley, is that right?---Yes.
PN864
You say:
PN865
They are always engaged on coal mining sites.
PN866
Do you know that to be true? Do you know whether they rotate in other sites other than coal mining sites?---That's - to my knowledge they are just on coal mine sites, yes.
PN867
PN868
MS GRAY: Mr Eastern, Mr Herbert put to you a question which was:
PN869
You don't need to be told to do your job by a Bulga supervisor?
PN870
And you responded, "No". Do you need to be told how to do your job by the P&H supervisor?---No.
PN871
Nothing further, thank you, your Honour.
**** GARY ROBERT EASTLEY RXN MS GRAY
PN872
PN873
MS GRAY: Our last witness, your Honour, is Mr Fox.
PN874
PN875
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN876
PN877
MS GRAY: Mr Fox, could you please give your full name and address for the record?---William Roy Fox (address supplied).
PN878
Mr Fox, have you prepared a witness statement for these proceedings?---Yes, I have.
PN879
Do you have a copy of it with you?---Yes.
PN880
Does it need to have any corrections made to it?---Yes.
PN881
Could you take us to those corrections please?---Yes, page 2, paragraph 4, line 1. It says:
PN882
I commenced employment with P&H at Bulga on 21 October 1002.
PN883
It should be "2002".
PN884
Also, page 4, paragraph 11:
PN885
When we require cranes we order them through the company that Bulga use, which is Bowers cranes.
PN886
Okay, so that is what you want paragraph 11 to read?---Yes.
PN887
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. We order them through - - -?---The company that Bulga uses.
**** WILLIAM ROY FOX XN MS GRAY
PN888
The company that Bulga uses?---Yes.
PN889
Thank you.
PN890
MS GRAY: Mr Fox, when you get consumables from the store what is the process?---Well, when it's free issue items we just go in and help ourselves, things such as nuts and bolts, or some of the hydraulic fittings and things. If it's of a bigger nature then we see our supervisor - or the Bulga supervisor - and he signs a cheque for us and allows us to go in and pick the parts up.
PN891
When you have your toolbox talk at the commencement of each shift that is with the Bulga supervisor?---Yes.
PN892
Have you ever been requested by the Bulga supervisor to perform work that isn't on the drag line, or the shovel?---Yes, we used to be requested to work on - if they were short of people we used to do cutting edges on the bulldozers, or any work that needed doing on the trucks. We've done equaliser bars on the rear of the trucks. The other week they even put us in doing cable work on the drag line trailing cable because they didn't have enough employees there.
PN893
That is work that is normally done by Bulga employees?---Bulga, yes, yes.
PN894
What about the buckets on the drag line and the shovel, is that to your knowledge part of the LCM contract?---Not the cutting edges and the chips. If we hear a call that there is a problem there we go down and assist the Bulga employees because we've got the truck with the ..... and that on it and it's the only one that has had safety shocks fitted so they get us all the time.
PN895
What do you do when you want a crane?---When I want a crane, well, we generally get in touch with our supervisor, that is the Bulga supervisor - we regard him as our supervisor because there is no-one else on-site - and we discuss with him whether he wants us to get a crane out, or whether he will get it out and, generally, he will call up the Bowers people and bring the crane in.
**** WILLIAM ROY FOX XN MS GRAY
PN896
PN897
MR HERBERT: Mr Fox, the reason for your employment, the reason why you are there, is to implement the LCM contract that P&H has with Bulga in relation to the drag line and the shovel, which were manufactured by P&H and sold to Bulga, is that right?---Yes, but we've also been told by our P&H supervisors, if we have to do work in the workshop for the Bulga supervisor, due to lack of people being on-site -Bulga people - we go in there and do the job on lighting plants, bulldozers, trucks and get a work order which they shine over with P&H later on.
PN898
Where is that in the statement, could you point - - -?---Beg yours?
PN899
Could you point me to what you have just said there. Did you include that in your statement?---Possibly not, no, because - it was a question you just asked me.
PN900
Well, I'm sorry, I didn't ask you that Mr Fox, but is that something that you thought you should add in today?---No, no, it's just that you asked a question and I was just answering your question, that was all, that is what I thought you was asking of me.
PN901
I see. Did you discuss your evidence with the other witnesses before you came in here a few minutes ago?---No, I spoke to Ms Gray about any evidence. I've been talking to them but not about this case or anything.
PN902
Which of the P&H supervisor told you to go into the Bulga workshop and work on their bulldozers and their trucks?---Well, Dave Freeburn and Dave Law have both asked us to do work for Bulga site, should we be required.
**** WILLIAM ROY FOX XXN MR HERBERT
PN903
How often does that happen?---Well, a while back it was happening quite often. Now, if we are just asked by the supervisor we go and we assist with them to do different jobs, but we haven't done one where they have required a work order now. We write a note and whether they follow it up or not, I don't know, you would have to ask Dave Freeburn.
PN904
In the last 6 months, how often is it that you have gone into a Bulga workshop and done work on a Bulga truck, or a Bulga bulldozer?---It's probably about once or twice we've been in there.
PN905
Once or twice - - -?---Yes.
PN906
In 6 months?---In 6 months, yes, probably.
PN907
All right, and who asked you to go in and do that?---It's more than that, I apologise, because they put us on the trailing cables now too, so it is probably three times, say, in the last 6 months, yes.
PN908
Three times in the last 6 months?---Yes.
PN909
I see, and who asked you to do that work?---Well, the first two instances were Dave Law and this last instance was the Bulga supervisor.
PN910
Was that the Bulga supervisor asked you to do that, did he?---Yes.
PN911
So Mr Freeburn has never asked you to do that?---Mr Freeburn is not there on-site at the time.
PN912
Right - - -?---See our - yes - - -
**** WILLIAM ROY FOX XXN MR HERBERT
PN913
The answer to my question is that Mr Freeburn has never asked you to do that, is that right?---Not that one particular job, but he asked us to do other jobs. He has instructed us, should we be asked to do these jobs, we do them and get a work order.
PN914
Get a work order?---Yes.
PN915
And charge it back?---They charge it back to Bulga then.
PN916
I see, that it outside the LCM contract, is it?---Yes.
PN917
That is only if the LCM contract - if nothing needs to be done in relation to your primary duty, which is the drag line?---Well - - -
PN918
And the shovel, is that right?---Well, there is always something to be done on them because that is what our job is, maintenance.
PN919
I see?---And it's just another job that they get us to do to earn more money for the company, I believe.
PN920
Yes, and you have said three times in 6 months that you think that has happened?---About that, yes.
PN921
Yes, excuse me. Now, the work that has been suggested that has been done on the cutting edges of the buckets, that is work on the drag line and the shovel?---Correct.
PN922
It wasn't originally the LCM contract, but now occasionally that work is asked to be done as well?---Yes, we are asked to assist the operators from Bulga.
**** WILLIAM ROY FOX XXN MR HERBERT
PN923
To assist - and you assist the Bulga workforce with that because you have a truck with a higher crane on it and that is a handy piece of equipment to have to do that job?---Exactly, yes, it's heavy lifting.
PN924
Is that how you assist?---No, we get up there with sledge hammers and the welder, we virtually do it for them in conjunction with them.
PN925
You do it in your capacity as a P&H employee there, assisting to maintain that P&H equipment?---That's correct.
PN926
So other than you say three times in the last 6 months, the whole of your time is spent on the site maintaining the P&H shovel and drag line?---That's right.
PN927
When you go to the store - and you were asked about that - there is material which is described as "free issue", is that right?---That's correct.
PN928
That is only - apparently from what we hear that is - they are some small items, nuts and bolts, spray material, something like that, is that right?---Correct, yes.
PN929
Do you provide any documentation to the store to the effect that that material is going to a P&H employee?---Not the free issue nuts and bolts, no.
PN930
Have you been directed to do that?---No.
PN931
Are you aware that some of your colleagues are working for P&H, always fill out dockets for what you call "free issue" material?---Well, when we've asked - if - when we've asked the storeman that and they say, no, that is free issue - - -
PN932
That is the store - - -?---- - - so we haven't had to fill out documentation, yes.
**** WILLIAM ROY FOX XXN MR HERBERT
PN933
Are you aware that some of your colleagues do?---No, no.
PN934
Well, the storeman has not required you to do it, is that the position?---That's correct, yes.
PN935
But anything bigger than a nut or a bolt, or a can of some sort of spray material or anything else, you have to get a docket to authorise you to take it from the store?---Correct. If it's parts that have got stock numbers on them - see, free issue does not have stock numbers. If it's a part that has got a stock number then we fill out a form with that number and get it signed by the Bulga supervisor and then go and get it issued by the storeman.
PN936
And that is to generate a paper trail so that Bulga can charge Harnischfeger for that material?---And the parts can be replaced, that's right.
PN937
Yes, and the parts can be replaced but the reason why you need to have it authorised is you have to identify yourself as a P&H employee so that P&H would be charged for that?---Well, I don't know, I just do as they ask, I just get it signed and do the paperwork. Whether they charge P&H or not, I don't know.
PN938
At Bulga you have your own compound?---Well, we have got a - - -
PN939
P&H - - -?---couple of demountables there and some containers, yes.
PN940
Yes, and you are a reasonably self-contained operation there? You have got your own crib area and you have got your own workshop area?---Well, the workshop area really is not I don't believe you could regard it as a workshop area. It is just an open concrete slab. That is where we work.
**** WILLIAM ROY FOX XXN MR HERBERT
PN941
That is where you work?---It is just an open concrete slab. There is no actual structural workshop there.
PN942
But you do your work primarily in your own compound area and on the equipment that you are there to service?---If we don't need to use any of the Bulga gear. We have to go in and use some of their tooling and their gas and different things at different times so we take the jobs into their workshop and do it and use their equipment.
PN943
Their workshop is very much under utilised we are told at the moment, is that right?---Well, there is not a great deal of people left employed there at the moment.
PN944
Do you know if the arrangements are - have you seen any arrangements in relation to the consumption of diesel? Are you, yourself called upon to fill up any equipment?---We used to fill up our trucks and everything with diesel there and it was brought to our attention that we are not allowed to fill registered vehicles with the diesel. It is something to do with taxation and the Bulga mine site but we do fill our welders and compressors that are on the back of the truck.
PN945
With diesel?---With diesel.
PN946
Provided by Bulga?---That's correct.
PN947
All right, and what record is kept of that?---We usually fill out another little docket and how many litres we have put in and give it to our supervisor - the Bulga supervisor.
PN948
And you identify yourself as a P&H person when you do it?---Yes.
**** WILLIAM ROY FOX XXN MR HERBERT
PN949
Again, setting up a paper trail so that the amount consumed by P&H can be recorded and if necessary charged back?---Quite possible.
PN950
The toolbox meetings that you undertake and that you have talked about, they are related to safety?---Safety and training.
PN951
All persons working on the site are required to attend - working out on the field on the site, are required to attend toolbox meetings?---Everyone - we work in different shifts and every shit has a supervisor and that supervisor, we have been instructed, at 7 o'clock every morning we must go into a little muster room and all contractors and P&H employees sit down and we get - run through incident grams, some sort of training, systems, if there is something there and fill in what job you are doing today, what shop aren't you doing, so that the supervisor knows exactly what we are up to.
PN952
You are asked by - who runs these meetings, the Bulga - - -?---Bulga supervisors, yes.
PN953
You are asked what work it is you are doing today?---Exactly.
PN954
So that he is aware of what you have got planned?---That's right.
PN955
He does not tell you what to do, he asks you what to do - what you are doing?---He asks us in the morning but should he not have enough labour then he will come and tell us, "I want you in here to do this." We have been advised by our bosses.
PN956
Three times in 6 months?---Beg yours?
PN957
Three times in 6 months?---Well, it can happen any time, you never know when things are going to break down unfortunately.
**** WILLIAM ROY FOX XXN MR HERBERT
PN958
But the reason for your existence, I think you have said, on that site is to maintain the P&H equipment?---That's correct.
PN959
PN960
MS GRAY: Mr Fox, Mr Herbert asked you in cross-examination about some of the other work you do other than the work on the LCM contract and he said that you sometimes do cutting edges on the buckets?---Yes.
PN961
Do you do cutting edges on any other equipment?---Well, as I say, we did get called in to do them on a bulldozer once, we have to change cutting edges on that. Other than that, cutting edges and tips are mainly on the buckets and dippers that are - - -
PN962
Okay, thank you, no further questions.
PN963
PN964
MS GRAY: That concludes the union's evidence, your Honour.
PN965
MR HERBERT: Does your Honour want to start now or after lunch?
PN966
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: How much have you got to do and what have we got?
PN967
MR HERBERT: Given the evidence that has been called I have some evidence-in-chief that I will need to take Mr Freeburn through. Mr Freeburn is the one witness we have remaining today. I will be a little while with him but I would imagine maybe 10 or 15 minutes with him.
PN968
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, why don't we do that in-chief and then we can do the cross-examination after lunch?
PN969
MS GRAY: That suits us, your Honour.
PN970
MR HERBERT: I call David Freeburn.
PN971
MS GRAY: I'm sorry, your Honour, I neglected to have Mr Fox's witness statement marked, thank you.
PN972
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right.
PN973
MS GRAY: Thank you.
PN974
PN975
MR HERBERT: Mr Freeburn, could you tell the Commission, please, your full name, your address and your occupation?---David Lewis Freeburn, (address supplied). I am a project manager with P&H Minepower.
PN976
All right, and where do you work as your main area of work?---At the Bulga mine site.
PN977
I wonder if you could look at this, please? Is that the original of a statement of evidence that you have prepared in these proceedings consisting of 15 paragraphs and sworn by you on 15 December 2004?---yes, it is.
PN978
I tender that, if it pleases the Commission - I'm sorry, are the facts and circumstances set out in that statement to the best of your knowledge true and correct?---Yes, they are.
PN979
I tender that statement, if it pleases the Commission.
PN980
Can I just now ask you a couple of issues. In relation to the question of the provision of diesel fuel to P&H at the Bulga mine site, what are the arrangements that you have with Bulga in relation to that?---Under the contract, the mine supplies diesel to us when we have got shutdowns and that to the generators and ancillary equipment. Other than that we are supposed to purchase diesel off Bulga itself.
PN981
Yes?---That is what we are meant to do.
PN982
In relation to the use of consumables out of the store, what are the arrangements in relation to the taking of consumables for Bulga?---We can get consumables out of the store but they are billed to us and then we get a monthly account which we are supposed to settle in time. So we can get any type of consumable we want if we haven't got our own and we just give them as a work order already there - a number and that is signed off by myself or/and the superintendent of the mine or their department, but we pay for it all.
**** DAVID LEWIS FREEBURN XN MR HERBERT
PN983
Now, you say in paragraph 6 - if I can take you to paragraph 6 of your statement:
PN984
Harnischfeger pays for all training undertaken by Harnischfeger employees on site. No training of Harnischfeger employees is paid for by Bulga.
PN985
?---Well, that is what I am aware of, yes.
PN986
By training, can you be more specific as to what you mean by the sort of training that occurs that Harnischfeger pays for?---Things like working at heights or EWP training, fork-lift training, overhead cranes - - -
PN987
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What is EWP training?---Sorry? Elevated work platform, sorry.
PN988
MR HERBERT: Yes?---Fork-lifts, overhead cranes, things along that line.
PN989
Yes, all paid for by Harnischfeger?---Yes. That I am aware of, yes.
PN990
Now, in paragraph 7 of your statement you deal with material in Mr Alexander's statement and Mr Fox's statement - paragraph 9 of Mr Fox's statement. Then you talk about the frequency of those matters. For example, in Mr Fox's statement, paragraph 9 says:
PN991
We use the mine site workshop facilities as and when required eg. we use the presses, parts, cleaners and oxyacetylene equipment, the overhead cranes.
**** DAVID LEWIS FREEBURN XN MR HERBERT
PN992
Etcetera. Now, you say in your statement:
PN993
The necessity to use such items from the mine site workshop would occur approximately only six times per year.
PN994
?---Well, to the best of my knowledge, yes. When I am there that is about all I would know of, yes.
PN995
What sort of things would require - what sort of jobs might require resort to the workshop - above the workshop?---Assembling bearings or stripping components where they need to use the mine's pressing equipment and some of the lifting equipment in there because we haven't got that readily available, so we use the mine's overhead crane.
PN996
But for everything else, where is the work done?---The majority of it is done around our little workshop area which is just outside their facilities. At the back of their facilities.
PN997
Right, and you have your own workshop area and demountable and crib area?---Yes, as such, yes.
PN998
Now, what you have, is that sufficient - the facilities you have other than the six times a year that you have mentioned, the facilities you have are sufficient for your employees to do their job on the shovels?---They are adequate, yes.
PN999
I think we have dealt with the crane hire situation in relation to there have been some changes to some evidence given. Now, there has been some evidence that suggests that P&H employees are from time to time requested to perform work which isn't work which is contained in the LCM contract at Bulga?---Mm.
**** DAVID LEWIS FREEBURN XN MR HERBERT
PN1000
Can you tell the Commission, what is the frequency of P&H employees being asked to do anything outside the bounds of the LCM contract?---It is reasonably rare that I am aware of. Probably, I don't know, individual guys might be 12 to 12 hours a year, I would think to work on a bulldozer or a truck from time to time.
PN1001
12 to 20 hours a year?---Well, something along those lines for an individual person. All up it is probably more than that but I would think around about that time.
PN1002
What sort of work then are they asked to do and under what circumstances would they be asked to do it?---They often will be - the mine superintendent will come and request us to help one of their guys or one of the other contractors to work on a truck or a bulldozer to help him doing a cable change, which is a job down the mine. They will come and see me or my supervisor and we will just let the guys know or they will come and see the guys themselves on the back shifts when we are not around.
PN1003
What commercial arrangements are in place about that?---Normally it is - anything over about an hour or more like that they will give us a work order and we will raise an order number on them or vice versa, yes.
PN1004
We have heard evidence from Mr Fox, for example, who says that the situation like that, that he knows of has arisen three times in the last 6 months. Would that be - - -?---That would probably be about right, yes.
PN1005
What would be the situation in terms of that work being able to be done if there was any sort of LCM work required to be done at the same time?---Then the LCM contract is the number one thing for the guys that work for us so our contract goes first. We don't go doing work elsewhere if we have got to work on our own equipment at the time.
**** DAVID LEWIS FREEBURN XN MR HERBERT
PN1006
That is the evidence-in-chief of this witness.
PN1007
PN1008
MS GRAY: Thank you, your Honour.
PN1009
Mr Freeburn, how long have you been with Harnischfeger?---Approximately 2 years. About late November, I think it was, 2 years ago.
PN1010
So you started as project manager for them at Bulga after the LCM contract started?---That's correct, yes, I did.
PN1011
What does the LCM contract cover?---The two machines on site, the drag line and the shovel, all parts and all labour.
PN1012
All parts and all labour for all repairs?---Yes, except for the GET on the front of the bucket and the dipper.
PN1013
What about any damage which is done as a result of operator error?---Accident damage is repaired by us or sometimes the mine could do it depending on what we are doing at the time but accident damage is repaired by us under a separate order number.
**** DAVID LEWIS FREEBURN XXN MS GRAY
PN1014
Then you charge them in addition to their LCM contract rate- - -?---That's correct, that's correct.
PN1015
If you do the teeth on the bucket?---GET? Normally, it is just done as a bit of give and take. The mine operators will pour some equipment out for us and we will change the odd bucket teeth for them as well.
PN1016
Now, you attend planning sessions each morning - the 9.30 session?---Yes, I do.
PN1017
Who attends that session with you?---Normally just myself or sometimes the supervisor - my supervisor. One of us will attend, yes.
PN1018
Who is your supervisor?---David Law.
PN1019
So your purchasing officer?---Well, he is a bit of everything.
PN1020
A bit of everything and he is also your supervisor?---Well - yes, that's correct. He is a supervisor/planner come everything, yes.
PN1021
Okay, so he is also a maintenance planner?---Yes.
PN1022
And he or you will attend that meeting every day?---Yes.
PN1023
Who else attends?---Occasionally the guys. I have taken some of the guys that work for me up there as well, just for a bit of experience and understand what goes on.
**** DAVID LEWIS FREEBURN XXN MS GRAY
PN1024
What about Bulga people? Who attends from Bulga?---All levels of management, production, maintenance. There could be anywhere from 10 to 15 people.
PN1025
During that, in terms of the maintenance area, is it true that those meetings map out what will happen to each piece of equipment over site over the next 24 hours?---Not - not normally. Normally, what is discussed up there is what has happened in the previous 24 hours and there could be a little bit - normally, the discussions will go on after the meeting. They will talk about what happened in the last 24 hours, a little bit of give and take of what is going on with some of the routines but any of the other discussions are normally done after that so it does not get too long a meeting.
PN1026
So then you break off into sections, is it?---Correct.
PN1027
And there would be a maintenance section?---Yes, or whoever you have to talk to, yes.
PN1028
Yes, and when that happens, priorities are set for different pieces of equipment and work that needs to be done?---Yes, it could well be, yes.
PN1029
Is that where you would have the discussions with - you said that if any work needed to be done outside the LCM that the maintenance superintendent will see you, that is Wayne Clements?---It could be there, it could be at any time. That could be any time of the day. There is no - - -
PN1030
But it would be the day?---Yes.
PN1031
Because you both only work Monday to Friday?---That's correct.
**** DAVID LEWIS FREEBURN XXN MS GRAY
PN1032
Day shift?---Yes.
PN1033
So if anything needed to be done outside of those hours on non drag line or shovel work then Mr Clements wouldn't contact you then, would he?---Not normally, no.
PN1034
That would be done by the supervisors on the back shift?---Yes, but normally I would know in advance - most of the times I would know in advance before those weekend shifts what was going on. If not, I might get told by - the crews will ring me or I will ring them and see what is going on on the weekend.
PN1035
If it is a job that is going to take less than an hour then there is no accounting done for it, is there?---Not normally, no.
PN1036
So it would just be done as part of give and take?---Yes. Spirit of co-operation.
PN1037
You have said that P&H or Harnischfeger gets charged for any training that your employees do on the mine site that is organised by the mine site. Was that the case also with the recent lock-out training?---I am not sure on that one, I don't know.
PN1038
The high voltage training?---The high voltage one we are. I believe we are supposed to get - - -
PN1039
But you are unsure of the lock-out training?---No, I am unaware of that one.
PN1040
And you weren't charged for the Be Safe training?---Be Safe training, no.
PN1041
Now, you have said that with shutdowns you are able to access any diesel without charge?---We are allowed to access diesel for the generators - for the main generator. That is part of the contract, yes, the mine will supply diesel.
**** DAVID LEWIS FREEBURN XXN MS GRAY
PN1042
For your main generator?---Yes.
PN1043
And you also said you could have diesel for ancillary equipment but anything else had to be paid for?---Supposed to be.
PN1044
What ancillary equipment were you referring to there?---Probably the lighting plants, pumps, probably our main service vehicle, if it gets left down there they might come down and fill that up.
PN1045
Okay, and anything done from the fuel truck rather than the bowser has no metre to read anyway, does it?---No.
PN1046
So it would have to just be given?---Yes.
PN1047
Are you aware of the stores having a free consumables area? The ones where they have the bolts, the bannister brushes, the air fittings, the hydraulic fittings, the sprays, torches, batteries, things of that sort which no paperwork has to be filled out for?---I know there are consumables as far as nuts and bolts. I am not really sure on all the hydraulic fittings. I know there is basically a free issue of nuts and bolts of a certain size, yes.
PN1048
You said the workshop - your own workshop which is really the cement slab?---Yes.
PN1049
That is adequate for most of your work and where you need particular things like presses and so on then your blokes go over to the Bulga workshop?---That's correct.
PN1050
You said that your workshop is really quite adequate. Is it still intended to go ahead and build the P&H workshop that the plans that are attached to Mr Fox's statement?---Yes, that is correct, yes.
**** DAVID LEWIS FREEBURN XXN MS GRAY
PN1051
You have been through the union's evidence in this case, haven't you?---That's correct.
PN1052
You responded to those parts that you took issue with?---That's correct.
PN1053
So there was nothing else in those witness statements that you took issue with? You took the opportunity to reply to what you thought wasn't entirely accurate?---That's correct, yes, yes.
PN1054
You have said that your workers - your maintenance people work the same rosters as the Bulga maintenance people, basically, if communication is necessary. It is the case, isn't it, that Bulga required your employees to work the same roster as their employees?---I don't know what the original set up was. The roster system started before my time so I am not really aware how the original system was started.
PN1055
You said that each employee would work a maximum 12 to 20 hours per annum on non - was it non LCM work or non drag line shovel work?---Well, drag line, shovel work, LCM is probably the same thing in reality.
PN1056
Well, not quite the same because of the bucket teeth and so on?---Okay, okay. Yes, that would be about right, I would think, yes.
PN1057
You are aware of the work that was done on the dog bone, that is the rear equaliser bar on the back of a dump truck where Mr Eastley worked for several shifts, Mr Fox worked for several shifts and Craig Murray worked for several shifts? So in other words, it was a job that went for approximately a week?---Yes, I am saying, say, 20 hours per person not the whole lot, was my comment. They did work on that. I couldn't tell you exactly how long they worked on it because I don't keep an eye on what everybody is doing, I suppose. I wouldn't know the exact minute of how long they are working.
**** DAVID LEWIS FREEBURN XXN MS GRAY
PN1058
But a big job like that where your people are being utilised over a week you would be aware of?---Yes.
PN1059
Of course, dump truck isn't part of the LCM contract?---That's correct.
PN1060
Now, what happens - you would agree with me that a drag line and a shovel are essential pieces of mining equipment?---Yes.
PN1061
When they are not working, when they are on down time then overburden isn't being removed?---That's correct.
PN1062
Coal isn't being exposed?---Correct.
PN1063
So mining isn't happening?---That's correct.
PN1064
How many P&H employees are there permanently out in the field in the northern district now?---I couldn't tell you - I wouldn't actually know.
PN1065
You only know about the Bulga people?---Yes, I suppose there might be - as in wages you are talking about?
PN1066
Yes, wages staff?---Possibly 20, maybe less. I am not quite sure of the exact number.
PN1067
So how many at Bulga?---We have got about 12.
PN1068
That includes day shift?---Yes, that is the roster crews and - yes.
**** DAVID LEWIS FREEBURN XXN MS GRAY
PN1069
When any of those people go on annual leave or are off on extended sick-leave then you get other P&H people to come and fill in?---That's correct.
PN1070
You get them from where?---From a surplus group that might be working on other sites around the place. There are numerous sites they work at.
PN1071
When they are working at those other sites do they come to Bulga to start and finish their work or do they start at the sites that they are working at?---They would come to Bulga.
PN1072
They come to Bulga?---Yes.
PN1073
So all of those Harnischfeger employees, every morning or at the start of every shift, come to Bulga to sign on?---Only when they are working for us.
PN1074
When they are working for Bulga, okay?---Yes.
PN1075
When they are working at Bulga but when they are working at Hunter Valley, they would go to Hunter Valley to sign on?---That's correct.
PN1076
They would sign off there?---Some work out of the office facility but most of them would go to another mine site and go on and off there.
PN1077
What is the office facility?---Well, the office at Mount Thorley. It used to be where the workshop was.
PN1078
Right, so you have still got an office there?---That's correct.
**** DAVID LEWIS FREEBURN XXN MS GRAY
PN1079
And what, some of your tradesmen work out of there?---I think there is one person that basically works out of there and helps with some book work and then does some boiler-making work at other sites.
PN1080
Right, so there is one person who does some mix of off and on site work and the rest of them are all on site work?---That's correct, yes.
PN1081
But the only people who you see regularly are the ones who work at Bulgar and those who come in and relieve for your workers at Bulga?---That's correct.
PN1082
It is anticipated that those people continue to work for the LCM which finishes in - - -?---8 years time. Roughly, 8 years time.
PN1083
You have said in paragraph 11 of your witness statement about the people who rotate through other sites and fill in vacancies for Harnischfeger people. You say "they also fill service days", what do you mean by "service days"?---That is a maintenance day when the machine is stopped for general maintenance, like a car service type of thing.
PN1084
So on Wednesdays at Bulga the drag line has a - - -?---service day.
PN1085
Service day?---Yes.
PN1086
The shovel does as well, or not, is that a different day?---The shovel goes down about every 3 weeks.
PN1087
Once every 3 weeks it has a service day?---Yes.
PN1088
Then you get some of these people who work at the other coal mining sites to come over and give a hand?---At other sites, yes, yes.
**** DAVID LEWIS FREEBURN XXN MS GRAY
PN1089
So how many of those would you need on your service day for the drag line on each Wednesday? How many extras do you bring in?---We use a lot of other contractors as well, so we can have up to 50 people there on site helping. P&H don't have that amount of people so we - - -
PN1090
And most of them are on LCM contracts or things of that sort at other sites?---Not really, no, they are just a labour supply, most of the other ones.
PN1091
I'm sorry, most of the Harnischfeger people who work in the district are like your people, they are on a site and they are looking after the maintenance of a drag line or a shovel or a specific piece of equipment?---Not to the same contract. Nowhere near the same contract, they might be just a labour hire, just an hourly rate hire.
PN1092
What, the Harnischfeger people?---Yes.
PN1093
So you have got some casuals out there?---No, no, no, I mean the hire - like a labour hire to the mine. We haven't got an LCM contractor as such at another mine site.
PN1094
You say you don't have any at any other mine site?---Not to the same extent to what we have at Bulga. Bulga is a unique - - -
PN1095
What do you mean by that?---Bulga is a unique contract, I suppose.
PN1096
Why?---It basically encompasses a lot more things that a lot of the other sites do. We were running a roster crew.
PN1097
And the other sites who have LCMs what do they do?---There's no - in the valley there's no LCMs that I'm aware of like what we've got there.
**** DAVID LEWIS FREEBURN XXN MS GRAY
PN1098
You said in paragraph 9 of your witness statement that the ordering of cranes for use by Harnischfeger is nothing to do with Bulger and is not arranged through or by Bulger. Now, some of our witnesses have said that if they can't get hold of a crane, they are working on a back shift that their Bulger supervisor will get hold of the crane for them. Are you aware of that?---That might be the case but in the end we pay for it.
PN1099
Yes, but you have said it is not arranged through or by Bulger?---I'm not aware of what - normally the guys would ring it themselves, they might - I don't know whether they get the supervisor of that mine to do it for them. Normally the guys I would've thought would do it themselves.
PN1100
So when you say that there's no other people on set rosters at other sites, are you including in that the drill crews at Ashton and Wambo?---I'm not aware of any - the drilling contract I am not aware of as far as what the details are for that. It's running at a different department.
PN1101
Who performed the maintenance on the drag line and shovel before the LCM contract started?---Bulger.
PN1102
Nothing else, thank you, your Honour. Thank you, Mr Freeburn?---Thank you.
PN1103
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now, Mr Freeburn, Mr Herbert has some further - - -
PN1104
MR HERBERT: I don't as it turns out, your Honour.
PN1105
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I'm sorry, I thought that is what you said.
**** DAVID LEWIS FREEBURN XXN MS GRAY
PN1106
MR HERBERT: I have nothing further, only Mr Freeburn didn't know that.
PN1107
PN1108
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Herbert?
PN1109
MR HERBERT: Subject to Mr Shay's available the first thing in the morning that is all the evidence we have today, your Honour, that was available today. Things went a lot quicker than we expected. Your Honour, my instructing solicitors have arranged to have a copy of the facsimile that seemed to have disappeared in to ether on 17th, re-faxed and I have a copy of that. There are two documents attached one is an updated affidavit of Mr Shay and the affidavit of Mr Freeburn.
PN1110
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is there any alterations to the affidavit of Mr Freeburn?
PN1111
MR HERBERT: No, the one that you have of Mr Freeburn is in fact the one which was tendered, it is just a photocopy of the original that was tendered. The changes to Mr Shea's are all highlighted in the copy that you have been given.
PN1112
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, that is it until tomorrow morning and then what, is Mr Shea in the morning and then just some addresses.
PN1113
MR HERBERT: That is the evidence, yes. I will be in a position to do that tomorrow.
PN1114
MS GRAY: No, your Honour, we were anticipating - this had been programmed just for evidentiary material. We weren't anticipating - - -
PN1115
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I'm suffering from a Christmas malaise. Can we go off the record for a minute, thank you.
OFF THE RECORD
ADJOURNED UNTIL TUESDAY, 21 DECEMBER 2004 [2.27pm]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
PETER DOUGLAS MURRAY, SWORN PN406
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS GRAY PN406
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HERBERT PN417
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS GRAY PN454
EXHIBIT #CFMEU1 STATEMENT OF MR MURRAY PN477
WITNESS WITHDREW PN479
LLOYD OWEN HILL, SWORN PN483
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS GRAY PN483
EXHIBIT #CFMEU2 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MR HILL PN488
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HERBERT PN502
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS GRAY PN619
WITNESS WITHDREW PN632
PAUL ALEXANDER, SWORN PN633
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS GRAY PN633
EXHIBIT #CFMEU3 STATEMENT OF PAUL ALEXANDER PN645
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HERBERT PN657
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS GRAY PN756
WITNESS WITHDREW PN776
GARY ROBERT EASTLEY, SWORN PN787
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS GRAY PN787
EXHIBIT #CFMEU4 STATEMENT OF GARY ROBERT EASTLEY PN796
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HERBERT PN819
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS GRAY PN868
WITNESS WITHDREW PN873
WILLIAM ROY FOX, SWORN PN875
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS GRAY PN877
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HERBERT PN897
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS GRAY PN960
WITNESS WITHDREW PN964
DAVID LEWIS FREEBURN, SWORN PN975
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR HERBERT PN975
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS GRAY PN1008
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1108
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