C2005/2445, Transcript of Proceedings [2005] AIRCTrans 959 (22 April 2005)

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

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Workplace Relations Act 1996 11213-1

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT HAMBERGER

C2005/2445

RAILCORP
AND
AUTOMOTIVE, FOOD, METALS, ENGINEERING, PRINTING AND KINDRED INDUSTRIES UNION COMMUNICATIONS, ELECTRICAL, ELECTRONIC, ENERGY, INFORMATION, POSTAL, PLUMBING AND ALLIED SERVICES UNION OF AUSTRALIA AUSTRALIAN RAIL, TRAM AND BUS INDUSTRY UNION
s.99 - Notification of an industrial dispute
(C2005/2445)

SYDNEY

9.38AM, TUESDAY, 12 APRIL 2005

PN1

MR M GREENHILL: I appear for RailCorp.

PN2

MR A MORRISON: I appear on behalf of the Australia Manufacturers Workers' Union and with me is MR CARTHORPE from my office.

PN3

MR M MOREY: I appear for the RTBU.

PN4

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Who wants to go first? Perhaps, Mr Greenhill?

PN5

MR GREENHILL: Thank you, your Honour. Your Honour, as you would recall on Wednesday, 16 March, you issued a recommendation from this Commission which said among other things, that a 24 hour stoppage that was occurring that day should cease immediately and not re-occur. You also indicated that discussions should take place between the parties and you set out, your Honour, some concerns that had been expressed to you in private conference by the unions. Those concerns, your Honour, if I can, included job security for affected employees as your first dot point in the recommendation, (2) the future of carriage cleaning and the PPP process, the Private Public Partnership process, (3) minimum employment standards, (4) the possibility of VR for affected employees, (5) access for all affected employees to train on new technology and (6), your Honour, the transfer arrangements for RailCorp employees as the successful tenderer.

PN6

On 22 March, your Honour, I wrote to Unions New South Wales and affiliate unions seeking a meeting to commence in line with your recommendation in order to commence consultation and we sought to commence that consultation on Thursday, 31 March. And I will tender my letter if I may, your Honour, just for your records, to Mr Morrison and Mr Morey as well. That same letter was addressed to each of the unions but I am just giving you the Union New South Wales version, your Honour.

EXHIBIT #RAILCORP1 LETTER DATED 22 MARCH

PN7

MR GREENHILL: On 23 March, your Honour, I again wrote to Unions New South Wales and affiliate unions setting an alternate date of 6 April following the unavailability of a number of people, and I tender that second letter for your records as well, your Honour. I wanted to make sure that all of the unions were able to attend so we set an alternate date, which was fine, it was no issue.

EXHIBIT #RAILCORP2 LETTER DATED 23 MARCH

PN8

MR GREENHILL: Your Honour, that meeting was primarily an agenda setting meeting. It did occur on the 6th, however based on the points set out in your recommendation, RailCorp sought to clarify the following key issues which were in your dot points there and state a position on them. So although the meeting was an agenda setting meeting, those points which we felt we could address, we wanted to address. Firstly, your Honour, new technology and access to training which is consistent with point 5 of your recommendation. We noted that diagnostic and fault finding training as accredited by the successful PPP tenderer was a desired outcome for our employees and would give them access to training on the new technology.

PN9

We stated that first meeting, our openness to potential training in this regard but we noted that appropriate competencies would be required. This is a classification structure we have been after for some time. We see it as a condition precedent to train on new technology just to ensure that our people have the appropriate skills to enable them to undertake training on that new technology, and we had, I thought, a very fruitful discussion about that, both on the part of RailCorp and, indeed, the unions present were engaging in dialogue about that and were open to that.

PN10

Secondly, your Honour, the availability of voluntary redundancy, now this is consistent with point 4 of your recommendation and probably a big ticket item, if I may say so, at that meeting we were able to indicate that we are indeed open to talk to government about this issue. And I can indicate to you today, your Honour, that we have opened those discussions with government. We have indicated to government that voluntary redundancy, an enhanced voluntary redundancy package may indeed be appropriate for the PPP should there be effects from the - economic effects and impacts on the type of work we do, once the successful tenderer takes up. And I have to say that we have received a positive hearing on that from government and we have told the unions very clearly it's RailCorp's position that that is something we want to see government deliver.

PN11

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So can I just ask you, when you say, government, who actually are we talking about?

PN12

MR GREENHILL: The minister has to approve it.

PN13

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. Yes.

PN14

MR GREENHILL: So we have had, the chief executive has had discussions with the minister on that, I understand they are going quite positively. But I think it is fair to say that we would agree with the position the unions support in respect of that. Your Honour, the potential for our employees to transfer to the Private Public Partnership company, which is consistent with point 6 of your recommendation, we indicated that while we would not intervene directly in the company's employment arrangements, like we wouldn't tell them you have to employ x, y or z, we would be open to raising again with government and have done so, the potential for a transfer payment for our employees who were successful applicants for jobs with the new provider.

PN15

We indicated at the meeting, your Honour, that there may be a useful precedent already in the industry, that is the Australian Rail Track Corporation has an arrangement that sees a transfer payment based on the 30 weeks standard. Now, some of our employees are seconded to the Australian Rail and Track Corporation, that's not the relationship I am talking about. Other employees have gained direct employment with them and that is the standard, I am advised, that applies.

PN16

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So what is this essentially, this is in lieu of existing entitlements, the recognition?

PN17

MR GREENHILL: Yes. Basically, it's a recognition that they have gone from the relative security of the public sector to the private sector and, in a sense, it's a recognition of that change in employment relationship. There was a package that was also around at the time that freight was privatised but I think the Australian Rail Track Corporations package is probably more relevant but we have got no fixed view. That will be the subject of discussion with the unions but we have put very firmly to our minister that that is an issue that unions have raised and that we are happy to support. Your Honour, we are presently setting up our second consultation with the unions in respect of the Private Public Partnership and expect this meeting to take place next week, subject to the availability of all of the relevant players.

PN18

The matter will be, I have to say, the subject of some discussion, and it will be an agenda item at tomorrow's rolling stock consultative committee meeting. But the formal second consultation with the big all-in group will be taking place next week. We have been talking to Unions New South Wales about a date. It was going to be tomorrow, some players weren't available so we have been quite happy to set another date for next week. We have also undertaken, your Honour, and this was a request of the unions on the day, to respond to the unions on issues of concern in writing and, where possible, prior to the meeting at which it will be discussed so that it's not just a gab fest, if I can put it that way, your Honour, but that unions have appropriate and formal positions put to them for discussion.

PN19

On a sadder note, your Honour, while the parties have complied with that part of your recommendation which deals with consultation, I feel I need to inform you that your recommendation in respect of industrial action wasn't followed. In the main, the work force did stay out for the full 24 hours. This was despite the efforts of management who rang around extensively amongst their employees and we were told in some instances that our staff were advised not to return to work. I don't intend to take this matter any further, your Honour, at this stage, except to note our disappointment that a greater effort wasn't made by some to give fuller effect to your recommendation.

PN20

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But as far as you are aware there hasn't been any threat of any further industrial action?

PN21

MR GREENHILL: There has not, your Honour. No, there has not and I want to make it clear to you that Unions New South Wales contacted me in the days after the dispute, made it clear that they and their affiliates were intent on working with us through the consultative process and there has been no indication at all of further industrial action from the unions. I have to say, your Honour, on behalf of my organisation, I have been asked to thank you for your assistance today and indicate our willingness should the matter need to come back at short notice, to come back. But we don't feel, and I have spoken to my friend, Mr Morrison, here this morning, I think he feels the same way though I won't speak for him, but we don't feel the need to set specific report back dates with you at this time. If it pleases you, you Honour, we are well pleased with the frankness that's been exhibited by all parties on the meeting of 6 April, we feel content at this stage to pursue that process of consultation and seek your Honours assistance in the future, should it be required.

PN22

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Greenhill. Mr Morrison.

PN23

MR MORRISON: Yes, your Honour, well, I won't really add much more to what Mr Greenhill has said, except to say that the AMWU has is quite ..... the way the instructions are progressing and the ..... that are being on the agenda, its certainly a positive way forth. We hope that this will continue into the future and I will just support Mr Greenhill's proposal about the involvement of the Commission, we very much thank you for your assistance and despite Mr Greenhill's comments about the workers not immediately returning to work, the recommendation was strongly received, actually, amongst our members, I can report on that. And we do appreciate your involvement and your assistance, and we also say that in the future if that is required I will obviously co-operate.

PN24

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Morey.

PN25

MR MOREY: Senior Deputy President, I'd just like to re-enforce what
Mr Morrison said and certainly the opportunity to have your involvement again in the future shouldn't be necessary, I think that would be a good way forward, rather than having to butt heads, before we get there we could come down here and use your experience to get through it, it would be great.

PN26

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you. Well, obviously that's quite encouraging, it does say my consultations are going well, I'm certainly quite happy not to list this matter again for formal report back for any particular date, though obviously I'll indicate that the Commission would be quite happy to bring the matter on if any of the parties wish that. Well, we were all hoping, and it sounds as if it is happening, is that with effective consultations occurring really should prevent there being any need for any further industrial action or any industrial trouble. These are important issues that obviously can be, and that sounds like are being dealt with through sensible consultation.

PN27

I'm not necessarily keen to have a further hearing, obviously its much better to be involved before any industrial action takes place, hopefully there will be no further industrial action, I'm confident that sounds unlikely now, but if going off the rails, if I can use that expression. I'm more than happy to be involved earlier, rather than a later stage because obviously I note what you said about workers, it seems, did stay out, obviously with a 24 hour stoppage that you only get involved in halfway through the stoppage, the ability to actually do anything about it, from a practical sense, is pretty limited. I'd much rather take a preventative approach in future if its necessary, hopefully it won't be necessary, so I suggest we just adjourn the matter indefinitely with any of the parties being able to call the matter on if they so desire. Thank you.

<ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [9.50AM]

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #RAILCORP1 LETTER DATED 22 MARCH PN6
EXHIBIT #RAILCORP2 LETTER DATED 23 MARCH PN7