BP2005/1956, Transcript of Proceedings [2005] AIRCTrans 983 (22 April 2005)

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

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Workplace Relations Act 1996 11241-1

COMMISSIONER TOLLEY

BP2005/1956

MS ADRIANA CAMILLERI MR FERNANDO CHELAN MR MARK TAYLOR MR MICHAEL LOCKYER MR AGIM EMINI MR JAMAL GEORGIS MR FRANK CAMILLERI
AND
BERKELEY CHALLENGE PTY LTD
s.170MI - Notice of initiation of bargaining period
(BP2005/1956)

MELBOURNE

9.59AM, WEDNESDAY, 13 APRIL 2005

PN1

MR B TERZIC: I seek leave to appear in this matter as an agent of Ms Camilleri.

PN2

MR D TRINDADE: I seek leave to appear as solicitor for Berkeley Challenge Pty Limited.

PN3

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. I presume there is no objection to leave being granted by either side.

PN4

MR TRINDADE: No, Commissioner.

PN5

THE COMMISSIONER: So the Commission hasn't got a problem. Leave is granted, gentlemen. Mr Terzic.

PN6

MR TERZIC: Commissioner, there is a bit of history in relation to this matter and hopefully I can recount that history in a way that will be agreed to by
Mr Trindade. Essentially, around the end of last year, Ms Camilleri resigned her membership from the organisation known as the LHMU which is known as the cleaners' union throughout Australia and purported to join the organisation known as the AMWU, the Australian Manufacturing Workers' Union and at this juncture, I might point out that I am an employee of the Australian Manufacturing Workers' Union and a short time thereafter, Mr Bradley who is an organiser from the AMWU - - -

PN7

THE COMMISSIONER: Terry Bradley, yes.

PN8

MR TERZIC: That is the one, engaged in negotiations with Ms Camilleri's employer which is generally known as Spotless about securing improved wages and conditions and having those reduced into an industrial agreement.
Mr Bradley had taken various actions that prompted the company to seek an order under section 127 of the Act and a certificate under section 166A of the Act and in response to those applications, the AMWU purported to initiate a bargaining period with the company and enter into negotiations for a certified agreement.

PN9

All of those matters were heard before Senior Deputy President Lacy and as a threshold issue, the company challenged the AMWU's coverage of Ms Camilleri and the other persons who have joined with her in initiating this bargaining period. The matter was heard out fully before Senior Deputy President Lacy and his Honour found that the AMWU's coverage did not extend to Ms Camilleri's work nor the other employees subject to this bargaining period.

PN10

At that point, the AMWU relinquished its role as a formal representative of the employees in question and there were some brief discussions about somehow trying to arrange for an agreement between the employees and the company, but they didn't amount to anything, so after discussions with Ms Camilleri about what her rights would be and how she could go about seeking to secure a certified agreement, I agreed to act as her agent and, accordingly, I produced various documents that have now been filed with the Commission and served on the company that we say validly initiate a bargaining period between Ms Camilleri and the other persons named in the form R40 and it is now the enterprise of
Ms Camilleri and myself to try and secure a certified agreement with the company to cover Ms Camilleri's employment.

PN11

There is another dimension to all of this and that is that at the start of all of this, while we concede that Terry Bradley made claims for wage rates which were perhaps on the side of being unrealistic, he wanted wage increases of 30 or 40 per cent, maybe more and as things have progressed, it is my contention that the claims now pursued by Ms Camilleri are far more realistic.

PN12

We are not going to press for wage increases of 30 or 40 per cent. We don't want to press for an agreement that would make the company's operations unviable or uneconomic and imperil the employment of the employees. What we are seeking is a realistic agreement that affords dignity and respect on these employees and we are willing to enter into negotiations today to try and achieve that objective and we would seek the assistance of the Commission and the good faith of the company in trying to reach a certified agreement along those lines. I don't think there is anything more I can say. I will leave the merits of the claims and the items we are pressing for for a conference, as we are seeking this morning. If the Commission pleases.

PN13

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thanks, Mr Terzic. Mr Trindade.

PN14

MR TRINDADE: Thank you, Commissioner. I don't have a great deal of disagreement with what Mr Terzic says. If we do have disagreements as to the history, they are not we say particularly relevant for the purposes of today. Other than to say that our position has been clear all along, probably the one missing piece is that throughout we have indicated to Mr Terzic and to Mr Bradley and to Ms Camilleri and to the other employees that we operate in a very competitive industry.

PN15

It is not an industry which has high margins and it is an industry that operates under the Building Services Award and that those are the rates that people are paid and the conditions that people are afforded and that is not just Berkeley Challenge. That is in effect - I can't think of another employer in this cleaning industry who has a certified agreement that provides for terms and conditions greater than the Building Services Award.

PN16

It just doesn't happen and so whilst we understand Mr Terzic's position, we understand Ms Camilleri's position are consistent. We have told them that we would have great difficulty in reaching an agreement other than an agreement that simply replicated or reinforced the terms of the Building Service Award because it would price us out of future retendering for this contract out of other works and it would ultimately be detrimental to the business of the ongoing employment of employees, so our position has been very clear.

PN17

We are happy to go into conciliation. Although I fear that the conciliation may not have a great deal of utility, we are always happy to see - we may change our mind or the other side may change their mind, but we don't want to mislead the Commission that we hold out great hopes that we will be able to conciliate an agreement today. If the Commission pleases.

PN18

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Anything further to add on the record,
Mr Terzic?

PN19

MR TERZIC: No, Commissioner.

PN20

THE COMMISSIONER: The Commission will adjourn into conference briefly.

<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [10.08AM]
<RESUMED [10.15AM]

PN21

THE COMMISSIONER: There has been some general discussion which I will describe as desultory conversation during the conference period, but what has come out is the willingness of the parties to have discussions over the next fortnight, then report back to the Commission if need be, if further assistance is needed or to be attempted by the Commission. I think it goes without saying and you might have indicated agreement or otherwise, Mr Terzic, that there will be no industrial action taken during that fortnight period. Is that right?

PN22

MR TERZIC: Yes.

PN23

THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks, and the same goes for your client,
Mr Trindade?

PN24

MR TRINDADE: Certainly, Commissioner.

PN25

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. The parties are to report back to the Commission at 10 am on Wednesday, 27 April, and I think if the company can lay out during that period as much as it can with its commercial requirements any progress or future contracts which will perhaps place your current employees in a better frame of mind as to their future and their hopes of gaining something that would assist them. I am not going to try and pre-empt - it would be very dangerous and, in fact, would be stupid to try and pre-empt what the Full Bench of this Commission is going to do in the current matter before it.

PN26

There is no doubt in my mind as a member of this Commission that this will be the last national wage case dealt with by this Commission. I won't make comments about the political scene, which would be wrong, except to say that as an individual, I hold out no great hope for the future of employee/employer relations over the next 12 months. Some people are going to rue the day they have taken the backward step they are contemplating.

<ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY 27 APRIL 2005 [10.18AM]