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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Workplace Relations Act 1996 15731-1
COMMISSIONER HINGLEY
C2006/2932
CONSTRUCTION, FORESTRY, MINING AND ENERGY UNION
AND
TIMBERTRUSS GEELONG PTY LTD
s.170LW pre-reform Act - Appl’n for settlement of dispute (certified agreement)
(C2006/2932)
MELBOURNE
9.57AM, TUESDAY, 29 AUGUST 2006
PN1
MR L MCCRONE: I appear for the CFMEU with me I have
MR S MCGOWAN a delegate for the afternoon shift at Timbertruss and
MR N FINLEY delegate for the day shift at Timbertruss.
PN2
MS N SEGBEDZI: I seek leave to appear.
PN3
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you Mr McCrone is leave opposed?
PN4
MR MCCRONE: No, Commissioner.
PN5
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, leave is granted. Yes.
PN6
MR MCCRONE: Commissioner, I would like to start by apologising for any slip ups I make. This is the first arbitration I’ve conducted, so I do apologise if there are any protocols that I don’t follow to the letter. The union would make the following submissions Commissioner. Firstly I would like to deal with the powers that the Commission is granted to arbitrate.
THE COMMISSIONER: Just before you do that Mr McCrone, I’m sorry to interrupt you.
EXHIBIT #U1 OUTLINE OF SUBMISSIONS INCLUDING ATTACHMENTS
PN8
MR MCCRONE: Thank you Commissioner. As I stated I would like to deal with the Commission’s powers to arbitrate at the Timbertruss Geelong Pty Ltd Enterprise Bargaining Agreement 2004 to 2007 and the grievance disputes procedure clause 2.10 expressly gives the Commission the power to arbitrate and the decision the Commission makes will be binding upon both parties subject to the right of appeal. The union doesn’t believe that the passage of the Work Choices Amendment to the Workplace Relations Act 1996 diminishes the Commission’s power to arbitrate. This is a pre-Reform agreement for the purposes of clause 2(e) of schedule 7 of the Workplace Relations Act.
PN9
Further to that Commissioner, we would like to refer to the Commission’s power to arbitrate as laid down in the Full Bench decision of the SDA v Big W, that allowed the Commission to exercise their powers to arbitrate more broadly and not narrowly defined. So we believe the Commission has the power to arbitrate on this matter. We don’t understand that the company is refuting your ability to arbitrate in any case.
PN10
If I may Commissioner, I will proceed into the substantive part of our case. The union believe that Timbertruss is obliged under its enterprise agreement clause 5 redundancy provisions to consider volunteers before making any forced redundancies. I believe I have attached the relevant clause and in particular Commissioner, we would like to draw your attention to the process that’s involved. The union doesn’t dispute that that process has been followed correctly through the first two points. Voluntary annual leave or leave without pay, negotiate annual leave or leave without pay, both those options were explored and we’ve reached a point where they are no longer appropriate options.
PN11
We proceed to the third point which is voluntary redundancies, Commissioner. Whilst the union concedes that the company, there’s no obligation placed on the employer under this clause to accept all voluntary redundancies, we do believe that they cannot refuse the voluntary redundancies without a valid – sorry, they cannot unreasonably refuse the volunteers. The third step is quite clear, that volunteers would be called for and the union believes that there is an obligation to act reasonably when they are considering these volunteers.
PN12
We believe that the company has proceeded to the fourth step, without properly considering the third step, and that is the volunteers. We understand there are a number of volunteers who put up their hands to take this redundancy, about 14 in total Commissioner. The union however concedes that there is only two of those volunteers at this stage that are suitable and those are the two sawyers coming out of the sawing section. We don’t seek to impose on the company that they make redundancies from the section or the assembly section when it’s a sawyer that they need to lose.
PN13
We believe this is quite an important point Commissioner and a lot turns on this. The company’s obligation is to act reasonably when refusing these volunteers. We understand the company in their submissions has disputed the obligation that is placed upon them. We believe that if there is no obligation for them to reasonably consider these volunteers, that step in the EBA becomes no more than a bureaucratic step with the company going through the bureaucratic motions of calling for volunteers. There’s no obligation on them to reasonably consider those people to put up their hands, that clause actually does no work in the agreement.
PN14
We don’t believe that was the intention when the EBA was written for that clause to do no work. We believe that the union and the employer both agreed at the time that that clause meant something. It means that they have to reasonably consider volunteers. We do not believe they have done that. So that is my first key point Commissioner. I will proceed now to why we don’t believe the company has acted reasonably in refusing the volunteers.
PN15
One example Commissioner of why we believe the company has acted unreasonably in its refusal of those two volunteers and we believe the reason the company has offered for refusing those volunteers is skills required and we don’t believe that this is a reasonable reason, and I will elaborate on that point now if it pleases the Commission. Commissioner, the company at this point is highly, is very top heavy when it comes to its skills. It is has a high number of level 5 workers and level 6 workers. The two workers that are volunteers are level 6 workers, and we believe reasonably that they can accept those two and I will elaborate further.
PN16
One example of why they don’t require, why the union believe it is unreasonable to refuse those applicants, a good example of that can be found on the afternoon shift. The afternoon shift that the company is proposing would entail one supervisor, Steve Kelly, 2IC Matt Allen, a second 2IC Shane Datson and the third worker would be a level 6. Commissioner, we believe the difference between a level 5 and a level 6 worker is the level 6 worker’s ability to fill in as a supervisor. We don’t believe that this is a skill that the company can argue that they require on the afternoon shift. As we outlined in our submissions, the role of the level 6 is to fill in and to take and assume a supervisory capacity where there is no other supervisors at hand. That is the supervisor or the second in charge is.
PN17
The example we outlined is on the afternoon shift in order for Seamus to fulfil that portion of his level 6 status, you would need to have the supervisor and both of the 2ICs away that leaving Seamus no supervisor. Now as the company has conceded in their submissions, that’s a fairly unlikely turn of events and in any event if it does happen, there is no one for Seamus to supervise. In that regard we believe that this is a redundant skill that does not require a level 5 worker to be able to operate all the saws on that shift to the company’s satisfaction and we believe that that is all that is required on the afternoon shift.
PN18
This would further give the company the option of expanding that shift, if and we all hope that it does, business picks up and they are able to re-employ. So Commissioner, the situation on the afternoon shift, and again I’m just using this afternoon shift as an example, because we believe it’s quite a good one in terms of how top heavy the company is becoming. We have a situation now where Seamus the level 6 worker, who is signed off by the company on operating all saws, we believe we will reach a situation where Seamus will not be able to operate the cyber saw, the alpine saw, or any of those saws by himself, because those saws all require a picker or a catcher to operate them effectively.
PN19
It seems to us that the only possible duty that Seamus could be performing on that shift would be those of picking or catching or cutting nogs, all those jobs are much further down the skill structure. That’s laid out, not by the union, that’s not us imposing our view of what skills are required, this is laid out in the enterprise bargaining agreement, in the classification structure attached to the back. We believe, it is the union’s belief, this would represent a serious de-skilling of Seamus role on that shift which Commissioner, I’ve brought a copy for both the company and the Commission, clause 14.4, 14.2 of the Timber and Allied Industries Award, the award that is binding upon the union and the employer in this case.
PN20
We believe this represents a de-skilling of Seamus role in the afternoon as it removes his supervisory responsibility and it removes his senior sawyer role, and we believe this represents de-skilling and as the Commission can clearly see that is prohibitive for the company to seek to de-skill it’s workforce under the relevant award. So we believe that it - - -
PN21
THE COMMISSIONER: What was the sub clause that you are drawing me to?
PN22
MR MCCRONE: 14.2 Commissioner. So we believe this shift structure on the afternoon shift actively promotes de-skilling of the workforce which is specifically prohibited. Now similarly to that, the situation on day shift, I mean, when you look at even the company’s own submissions when they talk about the level of worker they are planning on having on each saw, you can see you are going to have to have a situation Commissioner, as you can see in my submissions we give you an idea about the different saws, and who operates each saws and what level you need to be to operate each saws. That’s not just our belief on what level you need to be to operate each saw and what roles on each saw are performed by which level worker. That’s not the union seeking to impose their belief on those roles, that’s actually contained in the enterprise bargaining agreement in the classification at the back.
PN23
We can see that the ALS, it is one sawyer at level 4 and one catcher at level 2, the mango saw, one sawyer at level 4, the alpine saw is a three person saw, a picker which is a level 3, a catcher which is level 2, a senior sawyer which is a level 5, cyber saw is a four person saw a level 3 picker, a level 2 catcher, senior sawyer which is a level 5, and worker to mitre which is a simple drop saw Commissioner. A level 3 saw and then there’s the barrel saw which again is a level 4 saw. Again Commissioner, that’s not the union’s belief that’s actually what’s contained in the EBA.
PN24
Now when you look at what the company is proposing to run on those saws on the day shift, you can see the alpine saw is an example, two level 5 operators and a level 4 operator. The situation there is you are going to have to have, the level 4 operator catching the timber and the level 5 operator picking the timber. Now this again represents de-skilling of those workers. Those workers will be performing functions that are below their classification level for the foreseeable future and again Commissioner, this represents de-skilling of their roles.
PN25
Commissioner, while you’ve got the company we believe going against the grain of what is in the award, it can’t be argued that they reasonably require both those level 6 workers. When you look at the skills that the company has and the skills that the EBA identifies that they require, it cannot be argued that they require to have those level 6 workers and they need to divest themselves with a level 3 worker. Because Commissioner, the EBA once again, I refer to the classification structure in the EBA, clearly calls on the requirements to accompany that, to have a level 3 worker doing the picking.
PN26
Now Commissioner, these saws need a picker and under the company structure they will only have one level 3 worker and there’s at least two saws that need a level 3 worker to pick. So we believe that there’s a role for that level 3 worker on site. They require that role to be done. It’s at that workers skill level to do that role, however, at the top end of the spectrum they don’t require as many level 6’s as they got, as per the EBA. We believe it would be unreasonable on those grounds for the company to refuse the volunteers.
PN27
Further Commissioner, I will take issue with some of the points raised in the submission, it is appropriate to do so at this time, raised by the company in their submissions. The company has made a point in their submissions that they like to run their saws top heavy, that they like to run additional level 5’s on their saws and they’ve provided an outline of how those saws are being run at the moment on the classification prior to the redundancy, or classifications were running those saws. Now Commissioner we don’t believe that’s an accurate reflection of the manning on the – staffing on those saws.
PN28
We believe that reflects the top heavy nature of the workforce due to the last round of redundancies which saw the company divesting itself of its lower level workers. I believe they made approximately 30 redundancies earlier this year, in February this year. At that point they divested themselves of a lot of their lower skilled workers. This was accepted by the union based on the company’s argument at the time that they saw light at the end of the tunnel that they were going to ramp up production again and they needed to hold on to these highly skilled workers.
PN29
Here we are again Commissioner, six months down at the track, there was no light at the end of the tunnel, we are talking further redundancies, so we believe that that is unrepresented of the way of those saws have been run in the past, and of the company’s intention to run them into the future.
PN30
THE COMMISSIONER: Correct me if I’m wrong, but this matter concerns one mandatory redundancy, does it not?
PN31
MR MCCRONE: Correct Commissioner.
PN32
THE COMMISSIONER: That’s Mr Meehan?
PN33
MR MCCRONE: That’s the company’s selection.
PN34
THE COMMISSIONER: The company’s selection?
PN35
MR MCCRONE: That’s right Commissioner, the level 3 worker. That’s about all I have in my submissions, Commissioner.
PN36
THE COMMISSIONER: Do you want to call your witnesses?
PN37
MR MCCRONE: Yes, I will call my witness, starting with Seamus McGowan
THE COMMISSIONER: Perhaps if there’s further witnesses to be called, we might ask all witnesses to wait outside.
<SEAMUS PATRICK MCGOWAN, SWORN [10.13AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MCCRONE [10.14AM]
PN39
MR MCCRONE: Can you please state your full name and occupation?---Yes, my name is Seamus Patrick McGowan and my occupation is a sawyer.
You have here a witness statement that you prepared, is this true?---It’s true.
EXHIBIT #U2 WITNESS STATEMENT OF SEAMUS MCGOWAN
PN41
MR MCCRONE: You have a copy of your witness statement?---Yes.
PN42
The dot points - I wish to tender this as evidence Commissioner. Seamus could you perhaps shed some light on to the difference in your view, the difference between a level – sorry before you get into that – you’ve had a fair bit of experience with the cutting section in there at Timbertruss?---I have I’ve been in the sawing section since there for about eight and a half years now.
PN43
How would you describe your understanding of that section?---Pretty good.
PN44
What level have you reached?---Number 6.
PN45
Perhaps you can explain to the Commission as to what you see as the difference between the level 5 and the level 6 position?---Yes, well level 5 is basically a senior sawyer and his job is to run all the saws in the cutting department. The level 6 position was created so that the level 6 could supervise when the 2IC wasn’t there. The level 6 can do exactly what the level 5 can do, but just be able to supervise as well.
PN46
Seamus, if a level 5 worker was to come on to the afternoon shift that you’d no experience with, what skills would you expect him to have? What would you expect him to be able to do?---He should be able to join every saw in the place.
PN47
Seamus how do you believe the afternoon shift could be run different, if they had a level 5 to a level 6 worker? What difference
do you think that would make?
---Now it would make no difference whatsoever.
PN48
Would you like to expand on that?---Because again level 6 was created as a supervisory role, and that’s really the only difference between it and level 5, so now on the afternoon shift there’s nobody supervising any more, so, level 5 or level 6 is not going to make any difference.
**** SEAMUS PATRICK MCGOWAN XN MR MCCRONE
PN49
Could you explain to the Commission what is the role of the picker?---Basically Commissioner, the role of the picker is just to pick out all the timber and put it on the saw before it actually goes through the cut components.
PN50
Which saws would require a picker?---The saws that require a picker, are the cyber saw and the alpine saw, the two main saws in the cutting area.
PN51
Can those saws be run without a picker?---Yes, they can but not very productively.
PN52
What level would you expect if a picker came on to your shift? What level do you expect them to be at?---I’d expect them to be at level 3.
PN53
What about the catcher, what saws require a catcher to run?---Two saws, the cyber saw and the alpine saw require catchers. You can run the saws without them, but again not very productively and I would expect them to be level 2 or level 3.
PN54
What does the catcher’s role actually entail?---He just takes the saw out from the other end and just stakes on trolleys and punches it away.
PN55
One further question Seamus, I may read to you from the witness statement prepared by Gary Bowkett, this is where he talks about the pre-redundancy manning levels?---Yes.
PN56
He talks about having an alpine saw with two level 5 operators, on level 3 or 4 operator, the cyber saw to have two level 5 operators, two times level 3 or 4 operators, the ALS saw to have two times level 4 operators, the barrel saw to have a level 5 operator and the mango saw to have a level 5 or 6 operator. Do you feel that’s a fair representation of the staffing on the afternoon shift by the redundancies?---No, because prior to the redundancies our shift was consisting of a similar size to day shift we didn’t have as many senior people on there, which we don’t need not for all them saws. We probably need is two level 5’s to run the two end saws and that’s it really.
PN57
Hows’ the productivity between the day shift where they had the high level and the afternoon shift how do they stack up?---Pretty similar.
**** SEAMUS PATRICK MCGOWAN XN MR MCCRONE
PN58
Pretty similar would one be more productive than the other?---Not really no.
PN59
Similar approaches. No further questions thank you.
THE COMMISSIONER: Did you want to cross-examine?
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS SEGBEDZI [10.18AM]
PN61
MS SEGBEDZI: Yes, Commissioner.
PN62
Mr McGowan, do you have a copy of the agreement there. Now I just want to take you to the end of the agreement which sets out the skills which are applicable for a level 6 and the level 5?---Yes.
PN63
That’s probably about the last four or five pages of the agreement. Now under the classification level 5 it states, “ability to act as a 2IC is the requirement for a level 5”?---That is correct.
PN64
And level 6 also has that same requirement that they be able to act as a
2IC?---Yes, if you actually look closely at the level 6 in this here, you will see that it is pertinent to truss assembly only. The
level 6 in cutting was actually introduced about three or four years ago, the reason why is because there was normally two or three
level 5’s on the shift and there was an argument about who was going to take control of the shift when the 2IC was away. So
the level 6 position is specifically brought in so that was taken away and the level 6 was automatically was going to run the shift
if the 2IC was away or sick.
PN65
Now nonetheless, prior to the clause, which reads the ability to work as a
2IC?---Sorry, this is level 5 here.
PN66
For a level 6 I am looking at?---Yes.
PN67
It also says that the level 6 has to be able to – to undertake and be competent in all tasks and duties performed by the senior assemble?---See again, that’s assembly and the cutting areas, so they are not really relevant.
PN68
So what you are saying that in fact, for the level 6 there is no requirement to have any skills in truss cutting at all?---Yes, you see the level 6 position, as I said before, was created just basically as a supervisory role. It’s basically a level 5 they can supervise that’s what the level 6 position was created for.
**** SEAMUS PATRICK MCGOWAN XXN MS SEGBEDZI
PN69
But they are expected to have these skills in relation to this other area, which is the truss assembly?---No.
PN70
No, listen to the question, they are expected to have all the abilities in dealing with the truss assembly?---No, not my position of cutting.
PN71
Well according to the agreement that’s what the requirement for a level 6 is, that they be able to do all the things that a senior assembler can do in the area of truss assembly?---You see we’re cutting it’s a totally different area.
PN72
Yes, I know. I am just asking you about truss assembly at the moment?---I don’t know much about truss assembly to be honest.
PN73
Okay, so in terms of the flexibility and the ability for someone to work in other areas than truss cutting, a level 6 has different skills and greater skills than a level 5 don’t they?---Not necessarily, if you are talking about actually doing the work, the skills would be very similar.
PN74
Well I’m talking about what the agreement says that a level 6 needs to be able to, which might be different to what you understand
it, but what the agreement says?
---Well you see the agreement is talking about truss assemblies and not talking about truss cutting.
PN75
Yes, and in the area of truss assembly, which I’ve asked you about in that are in that area, you need to have all the skills of a senior assembler?---You see, I don’t know because I don’t do truss assembly.
PN76
Okay, so it’s fair to say, that for the company to have as many skills available to it across all of the areas in which it works, a level 6 would give those skills more often than a level 5, isn’t that the case?---I don’t really understand your point.
PN77
Well you’ve just – I’ve just taken you through what the agreement says that a level 6 should be able to do?---In truss assembly.
PN78
In the area of truss assembly?---Yes.
PN79
So if the company needs to be thinking about all the areas in which it works?
---Yes.
**** SEAMUS PATRICK MCGOWAN XXN MS SEGBEDZI
PN80
And needs to think about the sort of employee who is multi-skilled and can do different work in different areas in which the business runs, a level 6 is better than a level 5?---Again I’d have to say that depending on what you want, if it wants as a supervisory capacity, yes.
PN81
Okay including supervisory skills?---Yes, if you include supervisory skills, yes.
PN82
Now you were taken to the statement of Gary Bowkett?---Yes.
PN83
Now can you tell the Commission, or do you have knowledge of the conditions in industry over the period that you have been employed at Timbertruss?---Yes, sure. The industry is very fickle, Commissioner, one week we are flat out busy, the next week it is dead. At the present minute in time, it’s been very quiet for the last six months or so.
PN84
Now if Mr Bowkett were to say that in fact, it’s been quiet for more than six months, it’s been quiet for about 10 months, could you disagree with that?---We had a bit of a surge for a while but yes, he’s probably pretty close to the point there actually.
PN85
If I said to you that in fact this industry in terms of the housing starts and where you were placing your product, goes in 18 months cycles, could you disagree with that?---Well that’s pretty – yes, I don’t know about 18 months cycles to honest with you. They are from – go back to about 1999 up till GST was introduced Commissioner, we were absolutely flat out, couldn’t keep, basically the stuff going out the door quick enough, then once GST came in the whole thing just died for a couple of years and it took off again once the new grant was brought in for house buyers. So 18 months, it could be shorter or it could be longer.
PN86
Okay so it could in fact, the upswing could happen by the end of this year, couldn’t it?---Possibly yes, it’s so fickle, that is true.
PN87
On the other hand, it could also take another maybe at least eight months or a year could be.
PN88
In that case, you’ve seen the intended operating manning levels that Mr Bowkett has proposed?---Yes.
PN89
You understand that he’s thinking about the cycles and watching what the economic conditions are doing?---Yes.
**** SEAMUS PATRICK MCGOWAN XXN MS SEGBEDZI
PN90
Is that an operating level that you think the company would continue with ad infinitum until hell freezes over?---It’s hard to say actually. We’re operating on afternoon shifts now with approximately seven people, how long that’s going to be financially viable for is you know, personally I can’t see it being viable for too long if work doesn’t pick up.
PN91
So it’s uncertain?---It is an uncertain industry yes.
PN92
An uncertain industry?---It is.
PN93
At the moment, you say that this particular manning level that is proposed is very top heavy?---I think we are top heavy yes, because we did have a round of redundancies earlier on, which basically cleaned out most of the lower levels.
PN94
It is true to say that in terms of training people Timbertruss uses a kind of buddy system where less skilled operators are paired up with more skilled operators to learn skills?---That is correct.
PN95
So if you had a shift that at present was top heavy with people that have all those skills?---Yes.
PN96
And have skills across the different areas that a company works, those people would be available at some later stage, wouldn’t they to train others?---Yes they would be if the company kept them there.
PN97
So it would be prudent for a company that was hoping that there was going to be an upswing to retain those people, wouldn’t it?---I suppose it would be yes.
PN98
I don’t have any further questions.
PN99
THE COMMISSIONER: Witness, how do you personally feel about picking duties?---I’ve been there eight and a half years, and I started at the bottom and I worked my way up, so I’d have to go back to the bottom again and stand a bit of a slap in the face.
PN100
Do you feel the same way about catching?---Yes.
PN101
Does it mean if your wages didn’t change, do you still have to the same view?
---Yes, I do actually, because I’ve been there eight and a half years, I’ve proven myself of what I can do, and to have
to go back to basically where I started, it’s a little bit of a slap in the face, yes.
**** SEAMUS PATRICK MCGOWAN XXN MS SEGBEDZI
PN102
Yes, so from your perspective, you see a cutter as a much higher status?---Yes, the cutter is responsible for all the cut components, where your picker and catcher, they just stack on the timber and take it off at the other end, but your cutter is actually responsible for the actual components that are cut, to make sure they are correct.
PN103
Thank you. Was there anything you wanted to come back on Mr McCrone?
MR MCCRONE: Yes Commissioner, there were a few things I didn’t think were quite clear.
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MCCRONE [10.28AM]
PN105
MR MCCRONE: Seamus, there were a number of questions put to you regarding the role of the level 6. Can you just explain to us what the role of the level 6 in assembly is?---The level 6 in assembly as far as I know, I’m not really too sure about it, is to put the timber on the jigs and to act as a 2IC.
PN106
Would the level 6 in assembly have anything to do with cutting, a level 6 in cutting their role is?---In cutting.
PN107
Would they have - are they expected to have anything to do with assembly?---No.
PN108
The level 6 in wall frames, are they expected to have anything to do with roof trusses?---No.
PN109
So basically the level 6 role for each area is isolated to within that role?---Yes.
PN110
Thank you. Another thing that was touched on was understanding of the industry and there were a few questions that were put to you about your understanding of the industry. You’re not only the delegate at Timbertruss you are also on the committee management of the union?---That’s correct.
PN111
In that capacity, do you meet with other people from other parts of the industry?
---I do.
PN112
So you meet with the other workers from the other major truss manufacturers as yourself?---I do.
PN113
That would give you a fairly broad understanding of the industry, wouldn’t it?
---Yes.
**** SEAMUS PATRICK MCGOWAN XXN MS SEGBEDZI
PN114
Another thing that was touched on was the company’s wish to be able to expand quickly should the work pick up. Do you believe that the company’s proposal for the afternoon shift specifically, that you come on, do you believe that with the supervisor the two 2IC’s in level 6, there’s a capacity there for the company to expand quickly?---Yes.
PN115
Do you believe if they had, for example, one less level 6 and level 5 on a shift for example, do you believe that shift would be just as able to expand?---Yes.
PN116
Would there be any difference in the rate it could expand?---Because again the level 6 was a supervisory role, and now you’ve got three supervisors on there basically, so it’s not going to make any difference.
PN117
One final question, there were some points raised with regards to training. Do you see any difference between the level 6 ability to train, and the level 5 ability to train?---There shouldn’t be no.
PN118
It’s built into both roles, to train in terms of the buddy system?---Yes.
PN119
No further questions, Commissioner.
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you for your evidence witness you can remain in the court or you can go, but I direct you not to discuss your evidence with any other witness.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.31AM]
THE COMMISSIONER: Call your next witness Mr McCrone.
<NEIL GEORGE FINLEY, SWORN [10.31AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MCCRONE
PN122
MR MCCRONE: Could you state your full name and occupation please?---Neil George Finley, I’m a sawyer at Timbertruss Mill.
PN123
What’s your classification there?---Level 5 cutting, in cutting.
PN124
I have here a prepared witness statement, do you agree with the contents of that statement?---Yes.
PN125
Have you seen it?---Yes.
I would like to ask you number of questions.
EXHIBIT #U3 WITNESS STATEMENT NEIL FINLEY
PN127
MR MCCRONE: As I say I’d like to ask you some questions with regard to your statement. What do you believe to be the difference between a level 5 worker and a level 6 worker?---A level 6 is when the supervisor or 2IC is away he takes that role over, that’s the only difference.
PN128
You are a level 5?---I’m a level 5.
PN129
What can you do in your cutting area?---Everything, cut on all the saws.
PN130
So you are – who’s assessed as competent in that, is that your own assessment or is that something the company’s assessed you at?---No, I was assessed by the supervisor and 2IC on day shift.
PN131
Now if level 5 worker had come to the day shift for example from the afternoon shift into the cutting area, what would you expect that level 5 worker to be able to do?---Run all the saws and do everything in the cutting area.
PN132
With the exception of supervising?---With the exception of supervising.
PN133
Neil, I’d like to go through some of the roles and some of the saws. Now a number of the saws require pickers and catchers do they not?---Yes.
PN134
Which saws would require a picker and catcher?---The alpine saw would require both. The cyber saw require one picker and two catchers and the ALS requires a catcher.
**** NEIL GEORGE FINLEY XN MR MCCRONE
PN135
Could those saws be run without pickers and catchers?---No.
PN136
The levels, what level in the classification structure as you understand it would a picker fall under ?---Three.
PN137
The catcher?---Two.
PN138
Can you give us an idea of what those roles actually entail, what does a picker do?---He grabs the timber on – he’s got a sheet of what timber is needed and he grabs the timber from out the back and puts it on a belt that goes to the person to cut.
PN139
So not a particularly highly skilled job?---No.
PN140
In your opinion?---No.
PN141
An entry level position?---Yes.
PN142
The catcher, sorry the picker, we just described the picker?---The picker.
PN143
The catcher, was does the catcher do?---He catches the timber as it goes through the saw and he’s got a sheet there too, he just marks off and puts it on the trolley and pushes it out to the assemblers.
PN144
In terms of skills, in your opinion, where would you rank that?---When you first start that’s the job you get.
PN145
Okay and yet those saws, all those saws will require to have a picker and a catcher?---Yes.
PN146
Now I’ll just take you through Gary Bowkett’s witness statement when he talks about the men, the staffing levels that he is proposing what he is saying is required at those saws. On the alpine saw he’s got two level 5s and a level 4. On the cyber saw he’s got two levels 5s a level 3 and a level 6. On the ALS saw he’s got two level 4s, on the barrel saw a level 5, on the mango saw a level 6. Do you believe that that reflects the skills required on those saws?---No.
PN147
So you believe in what way?---You don’t need two level 5s on the alpine saws to start off with, you need a level 3, 5 and two or three.
**** NEIL GEORGE FINLEY XN MR MCCRONE
PN148
Why is that?---The only skill you need is to cut at level 5 level.
PN149
So under the company’s proposal, let’s take the cyber saw for example, the two level 5s, the level 3 and the level 6s, does this mean you would have to have one of the level 5s, if you’ve got the level 3 worker what would you expect they’d be doing on that saw?---Picking or catching.
PN150
Does that mean you’d have a level 5 or 6 worker or picking or catching on that saw?---No, you shouldn’t.
PN151
You shouldn’t, but under the company’s proposal?---I don’t know.
PN152
The company is proposing to have two level 5s, a level 6 and a level 3?---Not in my opinion you don’t need that.
PN153
So does that mean you would have one of those level 5s, picking or catching?
---Yes.
PN154
One final question, can you give us an idea about what the staffing on the cyber saw this week?---You’ve got level 6 cutting, you got a level 4 mitring, we haven’t got a catcher this week, and a 4 or 5 picker, I’m not sure which one he is, but he came for afternoon shift, so.
PN155
What about the alpine saw?---The alpine saw you had a level 3 picking, a level 5 cutting and a level 3 catching.
PN156
So on the alpine saw this week you’ve got two level 3s and a level 5?---Level 5, yes.
PN157
And how is that saw being run?---Yes, good, getting the job there.
PN158
Getting the production out?---Yes.
PN159
Thanks a lot Neil, no further questions.
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS SEGBEDZI [10.37AM]
PN161
MS SEGBEDZI: Just on the proposed arrangements that Mr McCrone took you to, it’s proposed on the cyber saw that there be two level 5s, a level 3, and a level 6 operating the cyber saw, and you say for picking and catching you really own need a level 3 that’s right?---Yes.
**** NEIL GEORGE FINLEY XXN MS SEGBEDZI
PN162
Each of those levels, level 3, level 5, level 6 have the ability to pick and catch don’t they?---Yes.
PN163
They know how to do it, don’t they?---Yes.
PN164
The level 5s and the level 6 also know how to operate the saw, don’t they?---Yes.
PN165
When this proposal was put forward, you understand don’t you that it’s not suggested that you would be picking and catching all day, would you, that’s not what you do now, is it?---No.
PN166
So you change around positions, don’t you?---Not during the day, weekly.
PN167
The next day?---Weekly more likely.
PN168
Weekly, so when you talk about having to do picking or catching, that’s not something that you are going to be doing for the rest of your career is it?---Not if you are level 5 or 6, no.
PN169
So you would be actually doing a bit of cutting, possibly a bit of mitring, as
well?---Yes.
PN170
The only person who can’t operate the saw is the level 3?---That’s correct.
PN171
But presumably over a period of time he might become more skilled and start to learn those skills under your training, for example?---Yes.
PN172
Now, in terms of the skills that a level 5 has versus a level 6 in the cutting area, it is true to say that a level 6 has the ability to operate all of the saws?---Yes.
PN173
And there are a number of saws, there’s about five or six?---Six.
PN174
Six saws, and they could be operating any of those saws on any day, given that there are absences, couldn’t they?---Yes.
PN175
The level 5s also could be operating those saws on any day if there is an absence, so there would be movement not only within the jobs around one saw, but there would be movement to other saws?---Yes.
**** NEIL GEORGE FINLEY XXN MS SEGBEDZI
PN176
So the picker, the level 3 in this group, who I think is Mr Leggett, he’d have to stay doing the picking?---Or catching or catching on the ALS, or about five jobs or six.
PN177
Okay, but practically everyone else would be able to move between saws, wouldn’t they with that proposed structure?---Well I’m
not sure on the afternoon people what levels they are. If they came down to day shift, but if they were
level 5.
PN178
If I told you that there is only three level 4 operators proposed to operate in the afternoon shift, everybody else is a level 5 or level 6?---On afternoon shift?
PN179
Yes, across all of the saws for all of those people, the level 5s and level 6s could move between the saws couldn’t they?---How many people on afternoon shift, sorry?
PN180
The proposal is that there would be 11 people on the shift – have you actually seen the proposal?---On the afternoon shift?
PN181
Yes?---There’s only four people on afternoon shift on the whole site.
PN182
Okay, let me just explain this to you. Perhaps I’ll give you a copy. Just down the bottom under the paragraph 17, there’s a table and this is what Mr Bowkett is proposing for the future?---If it picks up again.
PN183
Not when it picks up again just - - -
PN184
MR MCCRONE: Objection Commissioner. Our understanding of what’s written down here, is that point 17 describes the day shift and not the afternoon shift.
PN185
THE WITNESS: They are day shift workers not the afternoon shift.
PN186
Is Ms Segbedzi suggesting this is the afternoon shift or the day shift we are not sure?
PN187
MS SEGBEDZI: I’m sorry this is the afternoon shift?---These are day shift workers, all these.
PN188
Okay, I beg your pardon, this is the proposal for the day shift, but what goes on in the day shift in terms of the truss cutting is not dissimilar to what goes on in the afternoon shift, is it, the same sorts of work is done?---Same sorts.
**** NEIL GEORGE FINLEY XXN MS SEGBEDZI
PN189
Okay, so if this were to be done in the day shift, it is suggesting that there would be one level 4 operator on the alpine saw?---Yes.
PN190
Two level 4 operators on the ALS and the level 3 operator, Adam Leggett on the cyber saw?---That’s what it’s got here.
PN191
So everybody else is a level 5 or a level 6, that’s right?---Yes.
PN192
You are saying that everybody else would therefore be able to move around between the saws and could operate any of the saws?---Done by their levels, yes.
PN193
If there was an absence or if they needed to – someone needed to go off and supervise because the 2IC wasn’t there, that’s correct?---Yes, the level 6s.
PN194
That proposal gives the company a fair amount of flexibility doesn’t it?---As in?
PN195
To move people around?---To move people around, yes, they move people around every week, on a weekly basis normally.
PN196
They do, okay, and also to keep their skills up in different areas, in different saws?---Yes, if you run the floor every two or three weeks, you don’t forget how to do it I guess.
PN197
That’s true and if you were doing picking and catching in between, you would want to keep up your skills on different saws, wouldn’t you?---Yes, I suppose.
PN198
And if you wanted to train new people of lower levels, of level 3, level 4, or even the people who were there, you’d want level 5s and level 6s to be available, wouldn’t you?---That’s part of their job to train new people, level 5s and level 6s.
PN199
Now Mr McCrone mentioned that there was a current set up in the area, in the truss cutting area, when you got a level 6, a level 4, and a level 4 or 5, and you’re not sure who it is who’s picking?---Yes.
PN200
Today?---On the cyber saw.
PN201
Now that current arrangement how long has that been in place?---Two days.
PN202
Before that there was a different arrangement wasn’t there?---There was, last week, there was a level 3, a level 5 running it, and two level 4s catching.
**** NEIL GEORGE FINLEY XXN MS SEGBEDZI
PN203
Before that there was a different arrangement wasn’t there? It changes doesn’t it?---Yes.
PN204
This proposal that Mr Bowkett has put forward, that could change in the future, couldn’t it?---As in some level 4 or something going somewhere else or?
PN205
Yes, people leave don’t they?---Leave work?
PN206
Yes, go to other jobs?---Yes.
PN207
There might be a bit of an upswing in business, mightn’t there?---I suppose.
PN208
So there could be the possibility that you’ve got to take on people, couldn’t there?---Yes.
PN209
And if you have to take on people they need to be trained, don’t they?---Yes.
PN210
So this proposal gives you as many 5s and 6s as you need, doesn’t it? There almost all 5s and 6s, aren’t they?---No, not really.
PN211
Well okay, there’s a couple of level 4s and a level 3?---There’s four workers out of 10 that aren’t level 5 or level 6.
PN212
So it’s not too top heavy, but it’s a bit top heavy though isn’t it?---I reckon there’s a lot of level 5s and 6s there.
PN213
In the future if you wanted to train people you would need level 5s and level 6s wouldn’t you ?---Yes, but you’d hope in that time the level 4s be level 5s.
PN214
That too, that can happen can’t it? So the more level 5s and level 6s you’ve got the more people you can train?---Not necessarily. You can only train one person on a saw, when they first start, if they are picking, you only need one level 5 to teach them how to do it.
PN215
There are how many saws?---Yes, but you are not going to rehire seven people at once, so you are not going to need seven people to get trained.
PN216
You don’t think you’d be hiring seven people at once?---No, it hasn’t happened since I’ve been there.
**** NEIL GEORGE FINLEY XXN MS SEGBEDZI
PN217
All right but you have taken on a couple of people at a time?---The most I’ve seen is two people starting in the same week, but when you first start, you are level 3 or level 1 and you are only picking and take two hours to teach them how to do it.
PN218
So they would be moving on to other skills, wouldn’t they?---Not for a while.
PN219
In terms of learning, they would then move on to other skills?---Not for two or three months.
PN220
What if you were to take people who were already qualified from other companies, they wouldn’t be starting at level 1 would they?---I don’t know, you’d have to ask management it all depends how they want it.
PN221
I have no further questions.
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Anything further Mr McCrone?
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MCCRONE [10.48AM]
PN223
MR MCCRONE: A couple of clarified questions I’d like to ask you.
PN224
It was discussed there’d be a fair bit of chopping and changing around, now with the levels that they’re proposing and I’ll take you through them one more time. The alpine saw, two level 5s and a level 4. On that saw will there be level 5 or 4 workers operating for a large portion of their working day doing the picking and the catching?---If that was like that, yes.
PN225
That would represent - - -
PN226
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr McCrone, don’t lead.
PN227
MR MCCRONE: What would that do to the skill level of that operator, how would they be working above or below their skill level?---Below their skill level.
PN228
By what sort of a margin do you say?---Well one level 5, has either got to pick or catch so he’s going to go at least two levels down at least.
PN229
That’s just one example. The other saws similar?---Yes.
PN230
Another question was raised about a level, the company’s representative asked you about level 5s covering for absenteeism, is that a possibility?---As in they’ve got to do level 3 work if they’re not there?
**** NEIL GEORGE FINLEY RXN MR MCCRONE
PN231
No, what was asked of you was if a level 5 operator on one saw was sick, could the level 5 operator from another saw come and do that job?---Yes.
PN232
That’s inherent in their role as a level 5?---Yes.
PN233
There is no problem of chopping and changing in that respect?---No.
PN234
It is an important point. It was also asked about the level 3s ability to chop and change between different jobs. You did touch briefly on how many jobs that level 3 would be able to do, could you just take us through what other positions in the cutting area?---Pick, catch on the alpine saws.
PN235
Four jobs there?---The alpine and salver, and catch on the ALS, that’s five.
PN236
Five jobs?---Yes.
PN237
So there’s a lot of flexibility even for that level 3 worker to move around?---Yes.
PN238
It was also asked of you Neil, did you believe that the company’s proposal allowed for flexibility and you said, yes to that question. Do you believe that if they had one less level 6 that would diminish their ability to change and be flexible in terms of - - -?---No.
PN239
No?---No.
PN240
So one less level 6 wouldn’t affect their ability to be flexibility?---No.
PN241
That’s all I have Commissioner.
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, you are excused, thank you witness. You can stay in the courtroom.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.51AM]
PN243
THE COMMISSIONER: That’s the last of your witnesses?
PN244
MR MCCRONE: It is Commissioner.
PN245
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Segbedzi.
PN246
MS SEGBEDZI: Thank you Commissioner, you have seen our outline of submissions.
THE COMMISSIONER: Which I will mark.
EXHIBIT #T1 OUTLINE OF SUBMISSIONS
PN248
MS SEGBEDZI: Now it’s common ground between the parties that the Commission has jurisdiction here to determine this dispute over the application of the agreement. The specific terms of the agreement which are in dispute, are the terms in clause 5 of the Timbertruss agreement which are the redundancy provisions.
PN249
This is really a question of whether the reference to management agreement should be construed as management’s reasonable agreement. In this the company actually has no dispute, it does say it should be reasonable in how it decides on whether to accept the voluntary redundancy. The issue here is that the company says that the reasonableness takes into account economic conditions, business conditions. How to most efficiently operate the business at a minimum of cost in a time which at the moment is difficult. An economic climate which is causing the company some trouble. Then in terms of construing the redundancy provisions further, what it means in the agreement when it says that it can, the company can determine which employees it will make redundant based on the skills required and again, the company says the definition of skills required needs to take into account, the company’s prospects of business in the future, where it sees it’s market coming from, what that will require in terms of production and how best to plan for that.
PN250
So the skills required I think are clear and they are set out in the agreement. The company needs level 6s, needs level 5s, needs level 3s. The difference is that of course, a level 5 or a level 6 can perform all the tasks of a level 3, so this means naturally that a level 5 or a level 6 has the skills required by the company automatically. It is commonsense as we say in our submissions, simply that any prudent company would ensure that they had the maximum skills available to them within the range of skills required so that in the future, when economic conditions pick up, when the climate becomes more favourable, they would be in the position to take on and train up other employees. I take the Commission particularly - - -
PN251
THE COMMISSIONER: Can I just ask you a question. I’m struggling with this dichotomy between multi-skilling and de-skilling.
PN252
MS SEGBEDZI: Yes.
PN253
THE COMMISSIONER: It doesn’t say at level 6 that they have to be skilled pickers does it, or catchers?
PN254
MS SEGBEDZI: No, your Honour but the requirements of each level work in a graded manner so that one must progress through level 1, level 2, level 3 and as your Honour saw I put to the last witness - - -
PN255
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, but someone might get to be a very skilled cutter, but not all that good at picking.
PN256
MS SEGBEDZI: That’s true your Honour, but he would have had to achieve the level to be a picker and to be a qualified picker, as such, even though it was referred to that might only take two hours. But they have to have achieved that level before they can move on to the next one. Before they can learn the skills for the next. So inherent in each person who increases their level of skill, is the ability to do the work of the previous level.
PN257
THE COMMISSIONER: I’m just trying to arm you with my thoughts before you get into your submission and I won’t do any more than just say this to you. If everyone is level 5 or above, what is the company’s, what is the impact the company says if everyone is level 5 and above it’s not about absences is it, it’s about multi-skills? You heard the view of the witnesses about working at the lower levels.
PN258
MS SEGBEDZI: No your Honour it isn’t just about multi-skilling, it’s also about their abilities within those levels. Now Mr Bowkett in his evidence says that a level 5 can do the range of the different saws, all six saws, can work on them. But their output rate is not anywhere near what a more skilled level 6 employee would be able to output. Now he says that – one of the witnesses was asked this and he didn’t feel that there was much difference. But he’s not the one measuring, it’s Mr Bowkett and the management team and they are the ones with the knowledge about this. So if you like, the opinions of the witnesses are all very well, but as far as they go they may well be accurate, but they are not measuring across the whole business and they are not measuring the output.
PN259
THE COMMISSIONER: I wasn’t really talking about opinions, as much as perceptions.
PN260
MS SEGBEDZI: The perception of the company is measured by its management, or the perception of the performance of the employees is measured by the management and they determined that yes, they have the same skills in the sense that they are all competent to operate, but whether that means that they have the same performance is a different question and that’s something that the company is looking at in trying to determine which employees it should keep on.
PN261
It says that level 6 employees can do it faster, or can do a greater number of cuts and produce the timber that’s required at a much higher level than the level 5s. So for the interim period that the company is looking at, at present, where business isn’t great, they need to have a think about how they efficiently perform the work, keeping costs at a minimum and maximising the output at present so that when business does improve, those employees can train and supervise other employees, other less skilled employees and hopefully bring them up to the same rate.
PN262
THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry I interposed.
PN263
MS SEGBEDZI: No, not at all. I don’t propose to take the Commission any further through our submissions.
PN264
THE COMMISSIONER: I can indicate I’ve read everything I’ve been provided with.
MS SEGBEDZI: I will call the first witness, which is Mr Gary Bowkett.
<GARY WILLIAM BOWKETT, SWORN [11.00AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS SEGBEDZI [11.01AM]
PN266
MS SEGBEDZI: Can you please give the Commission your full name?---Gary William Bowkett.
PN267
Your business address?---(Address supplied).
PN268
What is your position in relation to Timbertruss?---I’m the owner, manager, and managing director.
PN269
Have you made a statement in these proceedings?---I have.
PN270
Have you got a copy of your statement?---I have.
PN271
Do you say it is true and correct?---It is.
PN272
If I might have leave just to ask one other question.
PN273
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN274
MS SEGBEDZI: Mr Bowkett, could you describe for the Commission what the current economic conditions are in this industry in the building industry as it relates to your company?---At the moment the – since after the GST the industry has basically spiralled, it’s been very consistent numbers. A lot of money has been invested in the building, in the private sector. Currently since October of last year, it started to decline, people are taking profits now from the stock market. So we now have a situation where, I think it was announced in the paper yesterday there’s 35,000 families without homes. We start getting public sector funding now which will start the process and the building starts increasing.
PN275
How long do you anticipate it will take before you see the results of that turnaround?---It’s very cyclic. Usually public sector we see – the last public sector increase was 1994. Usually in a downturn we look at an 18 month process, that’s dependent on a number of factors, because housing in Victoria is changing significantly with the large builders now doing a greater amount of the houses.
**** GARY WILLIAM BOWKETT XN MS SEGBEDZI
PN276
What do you perceive will be the situation in a year’s time?---Timbertruss our plans are most definitely about regaining our volume that we’ve lost due to this downturn and well probably – well further expansion through the consolidation of our wall frames and trusses on to the one site.
PN277
Sorry, where is that site?---Sorry, that’s the extension of our existing facility, there’s another 4000 square metre factory next door to us that we are attempting to secure and going through planning approval at the moment.
PN278
You will need to name for the Commission what suburb that is?---That’s in Belmont as well.
I tender that statement.
EXHIBIT #T2 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MR BOWKETT
PN280
MS SEGBEDZI: That’s the examination-in-chief of Mr Bowkett.
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr McCrone?
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MCCRONE [11.04AM]
PN282
MR MCCRONE: How would you describe your awareness of the levels?---Very good.
PN283
You have a high understanding of the levels?---I’d say it was very good, yes.
PN284
Perhaps you could take us through the difference, in your opinion, between a level 6 worker and a level 5 worker?---In which area?
PN285
In cutting?---In cutting. A level 6 has the high skill level available to us, there is only one level higher than that which is our 2IC which is then involved in a different area which is more the computer generation of files, organization of the work. With a level 6 we would historically expect that that person is that well skilled and versatile they can drop into any cutting position without an impact on throughput on any given day.
PN286
So you wouldn’t agree that a level 5 worker could slot into any position?---No.
PN287
They can in some cases, but we are talking about all saws?---No, they can’t.
**** GARY WILLIAM BOWKETT XXN MR MCCRONE
PN288
Can I draw your attention Gary to the skills matrix provided by the company. Can you just explain to me what a cross next to a worker’s name under a saw would mean?---They would have the ability to utilize tool.
PN289
That’s assessed by whom?---That would be assessed by the production manager or the saw shop supervisor.
PN290
So you would be able to expect, for instance, Josh Hayes as a level 5 worker to operate all your saws?---Sorry, how far down, I would expect he would be able to operate.
PN291
So how is he different then than a level 6 worker we’ve just outlined?
---Depending on what his capabilities are. There is a huge variation in saw types and computer types of saw, from single head saws
to multi-head saws. So a level 6 for instance of say, Rod Antonenko, I wouldn’t expect his output would be 2100 pieces on
a shift. Josh Hayes output would probably be around to 1600 to 1800 pieces on a saw that he usually uses.
PN292
But in your view, Josh would be able to operate all the saws, whether they are multi-headed, single headed regardless of the computer programming that’s been running those saws, as per the company’s skilled matrix here?---To what level? Are you saying to a consistent level?
PN293
To a level - - -?---To a level 5 he would be able to run saws that he usually uses at the figure that we anticipate he will use. Saws that are still level 5 saws that he doesn’t usually use he won’t be able to run.
PN294
He wouldn’t be able to run level 5 saws?---He can run the saw, but he will not get the output.
PN295
Okay so you’ve got Josh in your proposal running the alpine saw, is that correct?
That’s in your witness statement?---Yes.
PN296
So I’m just a bit unclear, Gary. You’ve got them under the alpine saw?---Yes.
PN297
Can he or can he not run the cyber saw?---He could run the cyber saw. Those two saws are linked in skills.
PN298
Could he or could he not run the mango saw?---To a level.
**** GARY WILLIAM BOWKETT XXN MR MCCRONE
PN299
To a level?---Probably a level 4, I’d say. About four.
PN300
A worker who could only operate the mango saw, what level would you classify them at?---Level 4.
PN301
So anyone who operates the mango saw in your definition would be a level 4?
---To an output level he’s a level 5. The EBA is to their minimum.
PN302
Okay. But the skills matrix, that means that the company has given them a tick off on that saw. Is that right?---Yes, they can operate that saw.
PN303
Okay. Gary, there’s been a bit of confusion about the senior sawyer role. It’s not actually defined in the EBA, is it?---I don’t know. Not to my knowledge, I don’t know. I haven’t read. Refresh my memory on that.
PN304
Because what, you have the senior sawyer level 5. Have you got a copy of the EBA there? Basically what I’m asking, Gary, is there’s no level 6 position for a senior sawyer in the EBA, is there?---No, there was no level 6 at the time of the EBA classifications.
PN305
But since then there’s been a level 6 sawyer position created?---Correct.
PN306
And the level 6 sawyer, what understanding of the truss assembly section would they be expected to have?---Not a large amount, but they do get involved in it. They have a higher skill level and a higher adaptability to be able to work in many areas of the factory.
PN307
Is it required?---No.
PN308
So you could obtain a level 6 position in cutting without having any idea about assembly?---Correct.
PN309
Could you explain to us, Gary, what a level 2 worker would do in cutting?---Not off the top of my head.
PN310
Would you say the EBA would be a fair reflection of that? It’s got here timber catcher?---As a minimum.
PN311
As a minimum?---Yes.
**** GARY WILLIAM BOWKETT XXN MR MCCRONE
PN312
So a level 2 worker would be able to competently catch timber on which saws would you say?---A level 2 would be able to, in the old system of cutting, would be able to catch probably only - - -
PN313
Let’s talk about the current system?---We don’t have any level 2s in our cutting area. The lowest level is 3.
PN314
But the EBA provides for them?---The EBA’s a minimum.
PN315
So are you suggesting, Gary, you wouldn’t have anyone anymore working on a go forward basis, there will be no more level 2 working in the cutting area?---I can’t tell you that because level 2 is an entry point also.
PN316
Okay. So if someone enters as a level 2 they’re a timber catcher?---Yes.
PN317
We can only assume, that’s what the EBA says?---They could be a timber catcher, they could be being trained to be a timber picker, they could be trained - - -
PN318
The only job they’d be competent at to do by themselves would be a catcher?
---That’s a starting point they will be trained for.
PN319
And which saws can they catch from?---There’s only the cyber saw and the ALS.
PN320
So both the saws that require catcher they’d be able to alternate between the two?
---Yes.
PN321
So there’d be some degree of flexibility with the level 2 worker?---Yes.
PN322
Yes. And a level 3 worker, what would you say a level 3 worker would be required to do?---He’s basically attained that level because he has an understanding of what he’s done, he’s gone through the probationary period and the supervisor is happy with his abilities at that stage. He’s still not entering into any area where he hugely affects the productivity.
PN323
And what would you expect him to be able to do? It says in the EBA that they’re a timber picker. Is that what you’d expect him to do?---Accurately pick timber for a start.
PN324
For which saws?---The cyber saw and the RS alpine saw.
**** GARY WILLIAM BOWKETT XXN MR MCCRONE
PN325
Cyber saw and alpine saw?---I’m not sure what it’s noted as in the skills matrix.
PN326
Sorry, Gary, I’ve got bits of paper falling all over the place here, mate. So can you just take me through where they can pick timber again?---They would pick timber for the cyber saw and the alpine RS saw, which is a similar type saw to the cyber saw, a multi-bladed saw.
PN327
Yes. So again there’s some degree of flexibility with that worker about what work station they could work on?---On those two saws they can work.
PN328
Yes. Do you envisage a situation where you wouldn’t have a timber catcher on a saw?---Not unless we can make it robotic.
PN329
But at the moment with the current machinery you’ve got there you’ve got to have a catcher?---Yes.
PN330
And a picker?---Yes.
PN331
For those roles have got to be done?---Correct.
PN332
And where would you say they sat in terms of highly skilled, low skilled, where would you say they sat?---There’s a variety of positions because we can put in a low level picker and the reality of that is that we will have a high level waste. So the higher skill base I can put on any position will minimise the amount of waste that we’d have by poor cutting, or timber selection, or break selection, or board type.
PN333
But if someone was to spend their day picking timber or catching timber, where would you say they sat?---We’d probably have about a $2000 a day waste bill.
PN334
But where would you say they sat in terms of highly skilled or low skilled, if someone was just catching timber all day?---I’d say what’s relative to the EBA. A level 3 entry position - or level 2 and 3 entry positions.
PN335
So would you say it was a high or low level skilled job?---I’d say for that position it’s a medium skill.
PN336
But in terms of the cutting area would you say catching timber highly skilled or low skilled?---I’d say it’s medium. It’s not a low skill because we’re not trying to, we don’t have low skill.
**** GARY WILLIAM BOWKETT XXN MR MCCRONE
PN337
There’s no low skilled workers there?---I don’t believe so.
PN338
Can you tell me, Gary, is there a part of the level 5 and 6 workers’ position to monitor the output from their saws?---They will return - the sawyer will return to Brad Pekin, or what’s the name of the saw shop co-ordinator, they will return their outputs for a daily cutting.
PN339
So workers running that saw, the senior sawyer on that saw, they would have a good idea of what’s gone out of that saw?---Yes. I would hope so.
PN340
Yes. So if they would give evidence to say about what sort of an output was coming out of the saw they’d be considered fairly reliable?---I would hope so.
PN341
Now, Gary, there was also some discussions about the reasons for the redundancies and the downturn being a part of just a general downturn level in the building industry?---Correct.
PN342
Are there any other factors that you think could be affecting the timber trusses downturn, or their need for a reduction of staff?---The downturn has a multitude of effects on players in the industry. We can’t control pricing structures from other companies. We certainly lost for a moment in time, we lost one of our major clients. We’re gradually regaining that client as they realised the benefits of dealing with Timbertruss.
PN343
But you’ve had some companies that are going badly, other companies going fairly well would you say?---There’s a lot of issues that are affecting the building companies at this stage. Land releases, loss of skill base, a number of issues. But you know, the larger builders, Metricon and Simonds, Metricon will be well down, but their sales are extremely high. Simonds very much similar. Mirvac pretty much so.
PN344
But there’s some truss manufacturing companies - - - ?---Sorry, I thought you were talking about the builders.
PN345
No sorry, mate. There’s some truss manufacturing companies that are weathering the storm fairly well. They’ve got plenty of work on, would you say?---Correct.
PN346
There are another factor, is there not, Gary, there’s a new player in the truss industry now?---Bunnings, yes. They bought trusses. Bunnings.
**** GARY WILLIAM BOWKETT XXN MR MCCRONE
PN347
So this is a multi-national company?---Sorry.
PN348
Bunnings is a multi-national company?---I don’t think they are actually. They’re just Australian.
PN349
Would you disagree with the fact they may have some operations in New Zealand?---I don’t think so. I’m not aware if they are.
PN350
Bunnings as the company?---Yes, I’m not aware that Bunnings have set up operations in New Zealand.
PN351
And then their parent company Wesfarmers?---Wesfarmers is a significant multi-national company.
PN352
So this would be the first time that one of these significant multi-national companies is at play in the domestic truss and frame industry in Victoria?---In Victoria? In Victoria, yes. Bunnings have entered the industry previously.
PN353
So this is a new phenomenon for the truss and frame industry in Victoria?---For Victoria, yes.
PN354
So no one can be really sure about what effect that’s going to have going into the future?---No. No, I don’t believe it’s a significant - it’s certainly not a significant issue to us. We haven’t lost any clients to Bunnings and anything that Bunnings is doing we agree with. So we don’t know how successful or unsuccessful they are.
PN355
Has anyone lost any work to Bunnings?---I think we’ve lost 10 per cent of Metricon Homes.
PN356
Initially they took a bigger slice than that, didn’t they?---They took 25 per cent, Bowens took 30 per cent. All the Bunnings work now is back with Timbertruss as of last Tuesday and the Bowens work will be gradually coming back to Timbertruss.
PN357
I think you’d agree it’s an unknown, somebody who had experience before in the industry?---Bunnings were owned by Hudsons, which was a large client and they were bought out and consolidated. They run two large factories in Victoria, one was on a two shift basis, the other was on a single shift. They’re now currently running a half shift in Benalla which was previously running as a single shift and I believe it’s a single shift in Melbourne. Their size and output is about half of Timbertruss. That was on a daily basis to my knowledge.
**** GARY WILLIAM BOWKETT XXN MR MCCRONE
PN358
Yes, but then they’re a bit of an .....?---No one knows.
PN359
Okay. That’s all, thank you.
PN360
THE COMMISSIONER: Now, can I just ask you this question. Progressing from level 2 to level 6 is a career stream, isn’t it?---Correct.
PN361
So is it an argument to say that one can understand that a level 5 wouldn’t be all that keen about doing picking or catching?---The coverage of level 5s in our manning list is we really have four level 5s that cover three positions. We have 24 weeks of the year when one of those level 5s will be absent so we need to cover that person or our productivity is significantly impacted in those cases. The whole concept of the system of a team that we have there is the push that came actually via Jane Calvert of the CFMEU is to multi skill as many so we can operate with a rotation system.
PN362
Whether or not you have absences. You can put absences to one side. You can have 5s doing 3s, can’t you?---Yes, I’ve always done that. We’ve never - we’re not actually got more level 5s in position. Actually the reverse is true, we actually have less than what we ever have had before on that shift.
Okay.
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MS SEGBEDZI [11.19AM]
PN364
MS SEGBEDZI: Thank you, Mr Commissioner. Now, Mr Bowkett, you were asked a question about sawyers returning their outputs, or having an idea of their outputs. Can you clarify whose outputs each sawyer would know about?---Their own saw that they’re working on.
PN365
Okay. And they return those outputs to Mr Pekin, that was your answer?---Or
Mr Watson.
PN366
So Mr Pekin has the outputs of which sawyers?---I’m sorry?
PN367
He has the collective outputs of which sawyers?---Of all sawyers.
PN368
Now, you were also asked a few questions about level 5 having the competence to work on all saws and you answered that they have the ability to use a saw, but they would be able to do it on their usual saw at their usual level of output. What output would they have on a saw that was not their usual saw?---We would expect probably 20 to 25 per cent reduction. I think that’s in my statement.
**** GARY WILLIAM BOWKETT RXN MS SEGBEDZI
PN369
And you stated also that in answer to a question that you see the skills in the EBA as a minimum and in fact that the senior sawyer position in the truss cutting area isn’t in the EBA, is it?---No. It was a position that was developed by the change in the cutting methods that we introduced three and a half years ago which changed the way that we cut it to take advantage of the strengths of each saw rather than the way we use to do it which was the cut in a general term.
PN370
So, I’m sorry, the way that you cut is better now than it was?---The way we cut now is more efficient because (a) the type of the equipment. The equipment at the end of the day you have to have good people running the equipment or it doesn’t matter how flash it is, how many bells and whistles, you can’t get the output.
PN371
What kind of extra skills or learning do you need to operate now as a senior sawyer in this new level that isn’t in the EBA?---There’s a knowledge of exactly how and what the saw can do utilising the strengths of the saw. Before we cut, in very general terms, where we would cut a whole truss through a saw, now we break the system right down so that the strengths of the saw, one saw would be cutting only cords, another saw would be only cutting webs. So understanding the ways of utilising the saw in relation to cutting those things makes sure that we have minimum amount of waste coming through. All those things are essential to reduce our waste factors which can be huge.
PN372
And who has those skills as senior sawyers? What level of employee has those skills?---Some level 5s if they’re continually using that saw. Level 6 is just a given. They know how to do that.
PN373
Okay. You were asked some questions about, in fact from the Commission, about level 6s and 5s not being happy to do picking and catching timber, that that’s something you might do earlier on in your career stream at a level 3 or thereabouts. How often would, on your proposal, how often and for how long would a level 5 or 6 be required to do these more medium skilled tasks?---There’s so many factors involved in how often they would do that. Absenteeism, running between 7 and 12 per cent, only allowing 10 days of their annual leave to be taken off. Someone is going to be away at varying stages. The area is the fourth level 5 who works on the alpine saw and he could be in a multitude of rotating positions and he could not necessarily only on there, we may have to put him on to a single bladed saw and he could be working there in which case we would have to down skill even further from what we want to have. That’s all dependent on absenteeism. That could have a huge effect on who we have on what particular saw at what time.
**** GARY WILLIAM BOWKETT RXN MS SEGBEDZI
PN374
Okay, but if someone - on your proposal you’ve put down, I think you were asked questions about Mr Hayes operating the alpine saw, for example, and he’s a level 5?---Correct.
PN375
How often would level 5s on the proposal need to be picking or catching?---There is only one position where that happens which is the alpine saw. On the cyber saw it’s a four man saw which the way that we’re now cutting using batching of jobs where we might be cutting three jobs at once from different clients, as long as they’re all the same pitch we’ll amalgamate them and cut them all at one time which saves a lot of cutting time. That person has to sort all this out. If it’s not sorted properly I basically have a pile of sticks. I don’t have a product that can go onto our assembly area.
PN376
Understood. So do I take if from that you’re saying not very often?---No.
PN377
Okay. I think I have no further questions for Mr Bowkett.
PN378
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. You’re excused. Thank you very much. You can stay in the court if you wish?---Thank you.
But I’d direct you not to discuss your evidence with any other witnesses.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.27AM]
PN380
MS SEGBEDZI: Mr Commissioner, the next witness is Mr Angelo Lauricella.
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you.
<ANGELO LAURICELLA, SWORN [11.27AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS SEGBEDZI
PN382
MS SEGBEDZI: Mr Lauricella, could you please tell us your full name?
---Angelo Lauricella.
PN383
And your address?---Corner of Crows Road and Barwon Heads Road in Belmont.
PN384
And what position do you hold at Timbertruss?---I’m the human resources manager.
PN385
Have you made a statement in this proceeding?---I have.
PN386
And do you have a copy of it?---Not in front of me. Thank you.
PN387
Have you read it recently?---Yes.
PN388
And you’re happy that it’s true and correct?---Yes.
PN389
I tender that. Actually, I didn’t tender Mr Bowkett’s statement. I should have tendered that as well.
PN390
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I’ve missed that because I marked it.
PN391
MS SEGBEDZI: I think you did, actually.
THE COMMISSIONER: It’s T2 and this becomes T3.
EXHIBIT #T3 WITNESS STATEMENT OF ANGELO LAURICELLA
PN393
MS SEGBEDZI: Thank you. That’s the examination in chief,
Mr Commissioner.
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MCCRONE [11.28AM]
PN395
MR MCCRONE: Angelo, can you explain - you’re the HR manager there. How would you describe your knowledge of the levels?---The levels in terms of the classifications?
PN396
Yes?---I have a fair understanding of it. I’ve been with Timbertruss for eight and half months now and in that time I’ve learnt quite a bit.
**** ANGELO LAURICELLA XXN MR MCCRONE
PN397
You have a pretty good understanding?---I’d say so.
PN398
Can you perhaps explain to us what you see as different between the level 5 worker and the level 6 worker?---Level 5 worker operates saws. They can operate most of the saws. A level 6 on the other hand can operate the saws at a high capacity.
PN399
So you say most of the saws, Angelo. Can a level 5 worker, would you expect him to be able to operate all the saws?---Well, looking at the skilled matrix it depends what they’re doing. Some level 5s operate saws in one area, or maybe two, and they don’t always work on other saws. So although they may have, they can operate that saw, they may not be able to operate at the level of, say, a level 6.
PN400
Okay. You’re pretty familiar obviously with the EBA as well?---Yes.
PN401
You’ve got a copy of it there?---No.
PN402
If I could just ask you to turn your attention to the level 5 sawyer. What’s the first point of a level 5?---Capable of operating all saws in the cutting area.
PN403
And you say this is the EBA that would apply to this workplace at this time?
---Yes.
PN404
Okay. Angelo, I’d also like to turn your attention to - I don’t actually have copy handy, but it’s the skills matrix that you provided in your statement?---Yes.
PN405
You’ve got it there? Could you just inform the Commission of what it means when a worker has a cross next to their name under a particular saw?---It means that they are deemed competent in that area.
PN406
Can you think of a situation where a worker would get a cross next to their name if they weren’t deemed competent?---If they were in the process of training.
PN407
So if somebody was in the process of becoming competent you might still give them a cross on the skills matrix?---If they were involved in heavy training and they were to operate that saw going forward.
PN408
So in order to get the cross though they’d need to be able to competently operating that saw?---Yes.
**** ANGELO LAURICELLA XXN MR MCCRONE
PN409
Okay. Who gives them that cross?---Supervisors, two ICs in that area.
PN410
So it’s reasonable to assume that if somebody, Josh Hayes for example, has a cross on the alpine side of the ALS, the mango, the rotary and the mitre, he’s going to be able to operate all those saws, isn’t he?---When you saw operate those saws, he may be able to operate that saw, but at what capacity?
PN411
To a level that the company through their representatives has deemed to be a competent level, surely?---Yes, but we also take into consideration their productivity output level as well.
PN412
Okay. But just in summary if somebody’s got a tick here they’re competent to operate that saw. Yes or no?---Yes.
PN413
Okay. Now, Angelo, if I could just refer you back to the EBA I’d like to talk specifically about level 2. What does a level 2 worker do in cutting?---Do you want me to read through those for you, Luke?
PN414
No, just paraphrase it. What would you say they did? What’s their role?---It’s a basic level position.
PN415
So they are the - the EBA says they’re the timber catcher?---Yes.
PN416
That’s pretty fair? They’d be expected to catch the timber?---They would undergo a training process throughout the cutting area.
PN417
But at that level, the company’s comfortable with them catching timber on the saws?---I would say so.
PN418
And where would that be in the hierarchy? What sort of position is that level 2?
---It’s a junior level.
PN419
It’s a junior level? So, it’s pretty unskilled?---Yes.
PN420
The level 3, now it says here they’re a timber picker. Is that a pretty fair description of what a level 3 worker would do?---Well, if it’s in our EBA.
PN421
And again how would you classify that in terms of the skills hierarchy?---I would say again that would be a junior level.
**** ANGELO LAURICELLA XXN MR MCCRONE
PN422
A pretty junior position?---Mm.
PN423
Not a high level of skill to put those two spots?---You’d say level 3 would be more senior than level 2.
Okay. That’s about it. Thanks for your time, mate.
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MS SEGBEDZI [11.33AM]
PN425
MS SEGBEDZI: I’ve only got one question. I think there’s only one, anyway. You said that you said to Mr McCrone that you think you have a fair understanding having been with the company for eight and a half months about these matters. If you had any doubt about the matters that Mr McCrone raised to you in terms of what each of the levels do and how competent they need to be, or how much output the can actually achieve, who do you ask questions of?---I rely on the likes of Brad Pekin, the truss plant supervisor, the production managers and in this case Gary Bowkett who’s the owner of the company and has presumed the responsibilities of the manufacturing manager whilst the operation manager is on long service leave.
PN426
Okay, thank you. I have no more questions.
THE COMMISSIONER: You’re excused, witness. You may stay in the court?
---Thank you.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.34AM]
PN428
THE COMMISSIONER: I think we’ve only got one more witness to go. Is that right?
MS SEGBEDZI: Yes and that’s Mr Pekin.
<BRADLEY SCOTT PEKIN, SWORN [11.35AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS SEGBEDZI
PN430
MS SEGBEDZI: Could you state your full name for the Commission?---Yes. Bradley Scott Pekin.
PN431
And your business address?---Corner of Crows Road and Barwon Heads Road, Timbertruss Geelong.
PN432
And what is your position with Timbertruss?---I am currently the acting production manager. I previously was a production supervisor of the truss plant.
PN433
And have you made a statement in this proceeding?---Yes, I have.
PN434
Have you got a copy of it? No?---Not in front of me no, I do not. Thanks.
PN435
And have you seen this statement and read it through recently?---Yes, I have.
PN436
And are you content that it’s true and correct?---That is correct, yes.
I tender that statement.
EXHIBIT #T4 WITNESS STATEMENT OF BRADLEY SCOTT PEKIN
PN438
MS SEGBEDZI: I’d also just seek leave to ask one or two additional questions of Mr Pekin.
PN439
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN440
MS SEGBEDZI: In relation to the enterprise agreement and the redundancy provisions it sets out a series of meanings by which the appropriate person to be made redundant is selected. You have first, I think, you have some relocation and so forth and then you get down to voluntary volunteers for redundancy and then next to force redundancy and you take into account the skills required and seniority. After that what is the process for the redundancy and how are the current candidates assessed in that particular criteria? I think it relates to performance. I won’t be giving anything away by saying - - - ?---Yes, for sure. Look, when it comes to performance and the skill and ability of the candidates that we’re looking at in the case of Daniel Meehan and Adam Legett, we look at the guys and their performance and how their prior history is where they’ve got when it comes to their performance skills.
**** BRADLEY SCOTT PEKIN XN MS SEGBEDZI
PN441
And how do the candidates current weigh up on that criteria?---Okay. With Daniel Meehan especially his performance at this stage is he’s got a final warning and a final then notice of an interview, giving him every opportunity to improve and we actually had grounds at this stage to actually terminate him, if you would like to say that, because of his lack of performance on late starts, attendance, performance in general. So as far as that goes with performance rating that was a clear cut case in my mind as far as why Daniel Meehan would be the final candidate to be the one to be - - -
PN442
If you got down to that level?---Absolutely, yes, absolutely. If we got to that level as far as skills and performance.
PN443
THE COMMISSIONER: But you don’t, do you? You don’t. With the skills matrix it doesn’t show their skills, does it?
MS SEGBEDZI: No, your Honour. We haven’t got there. This is just for the sake of candour to ensure that there is nothing which is not disclosed that the company hasn’t already thought about. But certainly they haven’t reached that stage yet and I don’t say that they do by getting this evidence by Mr Pekin. I don’t have any other questions. That’s the examination in chief.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MCCRONE [11.39AM]
PN445
MR MCCRONE: Thank you, Commissioner. You’ve been with the company for a fair while now, Brad?---That’s correct, about 15 years.
PN446
Operators, even worked on the floor?---Absolutely.
PN447
So you’ve got a pretty good idea about the nuts and bolts of how the assembly area works?---Yes.
PN448
What do you reckon I the difference between a level 5 worker and a level 6 worker?---The difference is between a level 5 and level 6 worker is the level 6 has seniority, can work in any position to the standard of a level 5.
PN449
So they can work to the standard of level 5 and all saws, but they’ve got the additional supervisory. Is that what you’re saying?---They have got the extra ability to train. We use those guys to train new starters, to train people coming up through the ranks. As far as their training ability they’ve got seniority in that department.
**** BRADLEY SCOTT PEKIN XXN MR MCCRONE
PN450
So could a level 5 worker do the training?---They can assist in the training, but we prefer to have as a level 6 he’s based as a senior operator and he’s a level 6, he’s the person that we rely on to train for future growth, future leading the guys in the correct area.
PN451
Okay. So will I be correct or wrong in this statement that the level 6 worker has primarily has a supervisory role attached to their
normal day to day work a week?
---No, that wouldn’t be correct.
PN452
Because there’s an additional training obligation upon them?---That level 6 person is an operator, he’s a sawyer and is there to assist in training.
PN453
You’re familiar with the EBA obviously?---Yes, for sure, some parts.
PN454
There’s a copy of it just in front of you there, mate?---Yes.
PN455
Could you turn to the level 5. It’s right at the back. It’s one of the last three pages?---Yes.
PN456
You’ve got senior sawyer there truss being level 5?---Mm mm.
PN457
Assists in training of staff?---Yes.
PN458
So that would be part of the level 5 duty as well?---Yes, absolutely. They would assist in that training, yes. For sure.
PN459
Okay. Now, the other thing I’d just like to ask you about is the skills matrix. Now, who maintains the skills matrix? Who signs off people here?---Myself and Brad Watson and Steve Densley in their appropriate areas.
PN460
Would you ever sign off a worker who wasn’t incompetent?---No, not at all.
PN461
No? So someone who’s got a tick next to their name as being competent of running of the ALS they can run the ALS to your satisfaction?---That skills matrix is solely for myself, Brad Watson and Steve Densley which are always in the assembly area for our perusal in our office as a guide to the guys on what their abilities are.
PN462
So if you’ve signed off - - - ?---No. That’s a skills matrix. That’s not correct. It’s a skills matrix.
**** BRADLEY SCOTT PEKIN XXN MR MCCRONE
PN463
So I’m just a little unsure. If somebody’s competent to run a saw, do they get a tick or not?
PN464
THE COMMISSIONER: They get a cross actually.
PN465
MR MCCRONE: Cross sorry, Commissioner. They get a cross if they’re competent to run the saw?---No.
PN466
Can you give me an example of someone who isn’t competent to run a saw who would have a cross here?---The example is Adam Legett who I would not rate as fully competent at running the ALS. He has some knowledge of the ALS and assisted very well with the ALS, hence the reason why I stated there that he was, that skills matrix is for myself, Brad Watson and Steve Densley to peruse at our discretion about who we can get to assist on any saw at any stage.
PN467
So Adam Legett is not competent to run the ALS?---Yes he is, but only in part.
PN468
So he either is or he isn’t. You’re either competent or you’re not, aren’t you?
---Absolutely, yes.
PN469
So is he competent to run the ALS? Have you got a copy of the skills matrix in front of you?---No, I haven’t.
PN470
I think there might be one attached to that document. Because he’s got a cross there it does not mean that he’s competent. It means that he’s in part there, as I said before it is for myself and Brad Watson to say that he is in training, he isn’t being taught at the moment, he has got some experience when it comes to the ALS. It doesn’t state anywhere there that he has signed off on anything. It’s for myself and my two ICs, leading in commands, that we’ve got some idea that this guy’s been trained and got some experience in that area.
PN471
But obviously if it’s just for the use of yourself and the other two ICs it’s kept somewhere just for your use?---Yes, that’s correct.
PN472
Would it be up on any notice boards for all the workers to see?---Recently it was put on our OH&S board, that’s correct. As a safety standard, that’s correct.
PN473
So you put it up there to say this is in the company’s view these people are what, unable to use these saws, unable to use these
saws? I’m just not quite sure?
---They have an ability to be able to use those saws, that’s correct.
**** BRADLEY SCOTT PEKIN XXN MR MCCRONE
PN474
So the fact that somebody’s got a tick here doesn’t necessarily mean that they know the saw?---No, it means that they have a level of experience on each one of those.
PN475
Do you have a criteria that you use when you’re ticking somebody off?---No.
PN476
It’s just an arbitrary sort of document?---We know that in our opinion that the likes of Chris Rose is, like Chris Rose doesn’t always work on the ALS so to rate him as an unbelievable cutter on the ALS saw would be false, but he has got some experience on the ALS. He knows how to run it, we know he can assist in that area and we utilise his skill to be able to move into that area and assist. He’s not going to be, you know, one of my top guys on that saw, but he has experience in that field.
PN477
So I’m asking if they get a tick are they the top person on that saw because obviously you can’t have, what, you’ve
got about 10 people signed off on the ALS. They are competent to run them. I mean, surely that’s what the tick must mean
otherwise this is simply a work of fiction with no weighting attached to it?
---It does.
PN478
So they’re competent? If you’ve signed somebody off on the ALS, you’ve got that skills matrix, you’ve stuck it up on the notice board for all to see, are they competent to run it?---It doesn’t say that.
PN479
So no, they’re not competent to run it?---I wouldn’t like to think that they are. You see they are competent to run that saw.
PN480
They are?---But what you’re saying is that they are competent to assist in that saw or in whatever fashion it may be.
PN481
So this tick may only mean they’re competent to assist. Do you have anywhere a document that says what saw people are competent to run? Does such a document exist?---Yes, it does. We have a skills safety check list that we do for the gentlemen, for the employees at work.
PN482
So there’s a different thing apart from the skills matrix you use?---Absolutely. There’s a criteria for the guys.
PN483
But in terms of the process the company has made it quite clear that they’re going off a skills matrix in terms of assessing skills. And that’s what you talked about just now. You said you went through the skills matrix when you were talking about who should be made redundant and who shouldn’t. You went off the skills matrix. Surely that’s your master document about who can run saws and who can’t?---It’s our definite - it’s our guide.
**** BRADLEY SCOTT PEKIN XXN MR MCCRONE
PN484
Okay, all right. If I could just take you back to the EBA for a minute, Brad?
---Yes.
PN485
Can I draw your attention in the classification section level 2?---Right at the back here again?
PN486
Yes?---Yes, sorry. Yes.
PN487
Level 2, it says timber catcher. What would you expect a level 2 worker to be able to do?---Assist in the catching of chords from the cyber saw.
PN488
So he wouldn’t be doing it by himself?---No.
PN489
There’d be someone standing there helping them catch?---Yes.
PN490
Okay?---Well, it depends if they’re cutting on the cyber saw. The alpine saw, they may be in that training phase where they’re catching on the back of the alpine saw which they’d be doing by themselves.
PN491
Yes. So you wouldn’t say that this classification structure here applies because this sort of says if somebody’s a level
2 they can catch timber on the saws. It doesn’t say that they need to be assisted. Surely that would be under the level 1?
---They could - okay. Going by that they could catch by themselves, yes.
PN492
Okay. Level 3, what would you say? That’s the timber picker position I’m describing now?---Okay, yes.
PN493
What would you say a timber picker could do?---Pick out the required members to go on to one of our flow through saws.
PN494
So all the saws?---Mm mm.
PN495
So there’s a fair bit of degree of flexibility there if you think they can work on a number of saws?---That's correct.
PN496
And that’d be the same with a level 2, wouldn’t it?---Not necessarily.
PN497
No, they can only catch on one saw?---Correct because there’d be an extra trainer there to catch upon the mitre saw.
**** BRADLEY SCOTT PEKIN XXN MR MCCRONE
PN498
Okay. Now, those two positions, level 2 and level 3, where do you sit them in the hierarchy?---Well, very important. The timber picker is very important to our structure and - - -
PN499
Yes, certainly. I'll just rephrase my question. If you had highly skilled, a high skilled position and then a low skilled position in the cutting area where would you say the timber catcher sat on that scale?---About the middle to three quarters of the higher, coming through the higher section.
PN500
Three quarters of the way up?---Yes.
PN501
What would be the least skilled job in the cutting area?---A level 1 or level 2.
PN502
So the level 3, the timber catcher, it’s the least skilled or three quarters of the way up?---No. Level 2 catcher would be the least skilled.
PN503
Okay. So level 3, the timber picker, highly skilled?---Higher skill.
PN504
Higher skill, but in the hierarchy where would it sit?---About the middle. Three of five.
PN505
Compared to a level 5 spot, those two jobs, what are they?---Streets apart.
PN506
Streets apart?---Well, the level 5 is a senior sawyer who knows how to cut. It’s a totally different position.
PN507
It’s a far more highly skilled position?---Yes.
PN508
So these are still quite low in comparison?---Yes.
PN509
Lower skilled positions, okay. And you’ve been a sawyer?---Yes.
PN510
Operating those saws. The longer you use them the better you get at them?
---Absolutely.
PN511
The longer time you spend away from it the worse you get at it, you forget certain bits and pieces about it?---No, not necessarily.
PN512
No?---If you’re in that area you succumb to those saws frequently.
**** BRADLEY SCOTT PEKIN XXN MR MCCRONE
PN513
But if you’re doing the job on a daily basis day in day out you’re probably going to be pretty good at it?---Absolutely.
PN514
So if you’re picking timber all day and that’s what your role has been you’ve got to be pretty good at picking timber?---Yes.
PN515
Would you say that you’re going to be - a level 5 worker, would they necessarily be better than a level 3 worker picking timber?---Yes.
PN516
They would be?---The level 5 guy has been around a lot longer than level 3 guy. Of course he would pick at a different level.
PN517
And how long would it have been? Is it foreseeable that a level 5 worker may not have picked timber for some time?---I’m sorry, say that again?
PN518
Is it possible a level 5 worker, it might have been some time before they’ve had to pick timber?---Yes.
PN519
Okay. Now, the other thing you raised that was discussed, the selection process?
---Right.
PN520
Now, you raise warnings as being one of the factors when you decided on Daniel Meehan. You said he was on his last legs. Is that true?---He is at the moment, yes.
PN521
And that was one of the factors you considered?---The very last one.
PN522
But the company did consider that when they were making the decision about who to make redundant?---I was asked my opinion.
Okay. That’s interesting. Thank you very much, Commissioner.
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MS SEGBEDZI [11.51AM]
PN524
MS SEGBEDZI: Just on that point, where are you at in terms of considering the candidates in terms of the sequence of events in the redundancy clause?---Where are we at?
PN525
Yes, in terms of trying to decide between candidates what stage are you at in clause 5? You’ve only got dot points in clause 5. I'll read them out just to find out. There’s four dot points. Have you got the agreement?---Yes, I have.
**** BRADLEY SCOTT PEKIN RXN MS SEGBEDZI
PN526
It’s page 10?---Sorry. Ten yes, okay.
PN527
And the first stage is voluntary annual leave, second negotiate annual leave, third voluntary redundancy, fourth selection for compulsory redundancy. Where are you at, and below that there’s other things, but where are you at in those dot points?---Well, we’re looking at number third actually, the last one:
PN528
The scenario where the skills required and seniority, unable to identify the employees to be made redundant, these issues of poor performance and absenteeism may be considered.
PN529
Yes. In answering the question from Mr McCrone that’s what he’s referring to, but where is the company at in terms of determining which candidate - - -
PN530
MR MCCRONE: Commissioner, is this to be considered a leading question? The question’s been answered. Brad’s answered it quite clearly. I don’t understand the - - -
PN531
THE COMMISSIONER: No. I think, Mr McCrone, he was clarifying the question.
PN532
MR MCCRONE: I apologise, Commissioner.
PN533
THE WITNESS: Sorry, can you say that again?
PN534
MS SEGBEDZI: I'll say that again. In terms of the question that Mr McCrone asked you, he was asking you about whether you considered these matters?---Yes.
PN535
What I’m asking is where is the company at in determining which candidate is to be made redundant out of the dot points?---Sorry, out of the dot points?
PN536
Well, in the sequence of that clause?---Yes, the last one, the selection of - - -
PN537
The selection of compulsory redundancy?---Compulsory redundancy, yes. The last one.
PN538
Okay. So you’re at the last dot point. And where are you at in terms of the numbered lines?---Number 3.
**** BRADLEY SCOTT PEKIN RXN MS SEGBEDZI
PN539
That’s where the company is at now?---Sorry? We’re looking at based on the skills required.
PN540
Okay. Now, you were asked some questions - - -
PN541
THE COMMISSIONER: Just before you move off that, could I ask a question? What does two mean?---Upon their service, their length of service.
PN542
What does that mean?---Their seniority, as far as their length of service that they’ve been employed at Timbertruss? Is that what you’re - - -
PN543
Are you saying the most senior goes, or the most senior stays? What does that mean?---That’s a good question.
PN544
If you don’t know that’s fine?---No, I’m not sure. That’s the best answer.
PN545
MS SEGBEDZI: Well, I guess we hope we don’t get to that point,
Mr Commissioner. Now, you were asked some questions about employees, level 5s, assisting in training and you answered that you prefer
level 6s to do it. Why is that?---Well, they definitely have a higher skill level. Those people have been chosen from their length
of service, that they understand more about the equipment that they’ve been using and they have an understanding of what’s
required to train the guys and the correct methods of the production needed on each saw and the level of expertise needed on each
saw and being that those level 6s can operate all pieces of plant they need to train correctly.
PN546
Okay. Now, in relation to the skills matrix document that you were taken to by Mr McCrone you said in answer to a question that you’ve checked it for your knowledge with Mr Watson and Mr Densley in the office so you could know which people would assist on different saws. Later you said that the skills safety check list indicated competence in working on different saws. What does that mean in terms of the skills shown on each document? Which is the higher skill, if you like? Which is the document which shows the higher skills?---Well, the document that we have actually has the operator sign off against, that they follow the safety requirement. As per our document we have some certain requirements they need to do to deem them to be competent and we go through that process with them and they sign off against that to understand they’ve covered all those basis as far as those skills and safety check list on each piece of plant they have to offer.
**** BRADLEY SCOTT PEKIN RXN MS SEGBEDZI
PN547
Okay. So that’s the skills safety check list you’re saying is the higher?---That's correct.
PN548
So it follows then that the skills matrix shows a lower level of skill or competence in assisting, is that right?---Yes. It assists us in a quick analysis. Instead having to get our files out of every single one we can quickly just glance at that and see that they have a knowledge of that saw and can help us in that area.
PN549
Okay. Now, you said in answer to a question from Mr McCrone that you thought that the catcher and the picker, or I think it was just the catcher, plays an important role in the business. I beg your pardon, it was the picker. You said it was important to the business?---That's correct.
PN550
And that it was somewhere around the middle to three quarters in terms of the hierarchy of positions?---Yes.
PN551
And I think you also said to Mr McCrone that you don’t necessarily lose the skill to pick timber if you were not doing it all the time?---No.
PN552
How often under the proposed structure that Mr Bowkett has put forward, how often will skilled level 5 and level 6 employees be required to do picking and catching?---We all need those level 5s to be actually operating those saws, so that would be rare that they would be needed to do that.
PN553
Okay. I don’t have any further questions.
PN554
THE COMMISSIONER: I just have one. When you were asked about what stage the company’s at in respect of the selection process
it’s fact, isn’t it,
Mr Meehan has already been chosen?---That's correct.
PN555
So it’s at the end of the process, isn’t it. It’s finished the process?---I suppose being selected, yes.
All right, thank you. You’re excused. You can stay in the court if you wish.
PN557
THE COMMISSIONER: Do you wish to make your submissions now?
PN558
MS SEGBEDZI: If it please the Commission I’d be happy to wait for my friend to conclude.
PN559
THE COMMISSIONER: I thought Mr McCrone had done that at the outset.
PN560
MR MCCRONE: Commissioner, I wish if I could ask for a brief adjournment in order to prepare a final submission?
PN561
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. How long will you need?
PN562
MR MCCRONE: Half an hour?
PN563
THE COMMISSIONER: Perhaps it might be an appropriate time to have lunch then I think.
PN564
MS SEGBEDZI: We don’t oppose that.
PN565
THE COMMISSIONER: We’ll come back at 1 o'clock.
PN566
MR MCCRONE: Thank you, Commissioner.
<LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.00PM]
<RESUMED [12.57PM]
PN567
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr McCrone.
PN568
MR MCCRONE: Thank you, Commissioner. Commissioner, the process that’s been applied to these redundancies with particular, this single position that we’re discussing today, has been done in a manner that could not be described as consistent with the enterprise bargaining agreement between the union and Timbertruss. We’re being told on one hand that a skills matrix is being used to assess who’s being made redundant and who’s not. We’re being told on another hand that this skills matrix is not being used and in fact a fourth document that no one has actually sighted as yet is being used to decide who’s going to go and who’s not going to go.
PN569
We’re being told that the skills matrix represents a list of who’s competent to operate what saws and that nobody would get signed off as competent at that saw unless they were competent to run it. On the other hand we’re being told that the skills matrix instead represents who can assist. It’s very unclear. On top of that, Commissioner, we’re even hearing and perhaps most concerning of all that one of the factors that’s been taken into account when deciding who’s going to be made redundant is warnings. One of those warnings I believe is for absenteeism. Now, Commissioner, the EBA is crystal clear on this matter.
PN570
In the scenario and only in the scenario where skills required and seniority are unable to identify the employees to be made redundant the issue of poor performance and absenteeism is to be considered. Now, we’ve already heard from Brad Pekin that was one of the items that was considered when deciding upon who will be made redundant. Now, Commissioner, that’s what’s happened thus far. We had an opportunity here today to correct this procedure. The company has an obligation under the enterprise agreement that they entered into, they freely entered into, to consider volunteers prior to proceeding to forced redundancies and not to unreasonably withhold their consent to one of those volunteers.
PN571
Now, Commissioner, the reason this was sought and agreed to was that a voluntary redundancy is by far preferable for the workers involved than a forced redundancy. A worker who puts up their hand for a voluntary redundancy knows how they’re going to pay their mortgage in the future. They know how they’re going to put food on the table, put petrol in the car in the future. A worker who has not put up their hand for that voluntary position does not know those things. They need their job in order to meet the day to day expenses. And that’s why it’s so important. Now, a voluntary redundancy, we say, is great for morale on site, people like to know that they’re not going to be forced out, or that somebody else is waiting in the wings, is happy to take that job.
PN572
And, Commissioner, I don’t need to tell you and I’m sure I don’t need to tell the company the effect that high morale has for productivity. It’s a boom for productivity. When workers are happy more things get made. Now, Commissioner, the alternative to this is to proceed, in the union’s position, proceed prematurely to the forced redundancy step. Now, if we just need to have a quick look at what that does mean. Proceeding to the forced redundancy position will see level 5 and 6 workers being deskilled. They will be expected to do the picking and catching work that’s been variously described as streets apart from their level 5 sawing position, it was described by Brad Pekin as being a junior position, a picking a catching position, it was described by Angelo as being an entry level position and this is the reality.
PN573
Now, I could take any example that the company has provided of how they’re planning of staffing these saws, but I'll pick the cyber saw because I believe that’s quite indicative of the staffing on the saws into the future if a forced redundancy is made. Now, looking at the classification structure, not the classification structure that the union believes should be applied, or that the delegate believes should be applied, but in fact the classification structure that is contained in the certified agreement that has been stamped and signed by a Commissioner, we can see - and we’ll concede that the senior sawyer on the saw, a level 5, will be necessary for that - apart from that though, Commissioner, you’ve got two level 3 spots, a picker and a mitre, a level 3 as per the certified agreement and a catcher, level 2 again as per the certified agreement.
PN574
And not just a certified agreement. The testimony we’ve heard today both from the delegates and the company’s representative that those positions are in fact level 2s and 3s. Now, if we look at what the company is proposing we can see that that saw will be staffed by a level 6 worker, two level 5 workers and a level 3 worker. Now, Commissioner, in this scenario you’re going to have three of the four workers at any one time operating at a level that is below their classification structure and in some cases a level that is being described as streets apart from their classification structure. This is not necessary. We don’t need to go down this path.
PN575
We’ve got two volunteers and we believe these volunteers can be missed without any detrimental impact on the company and we’ve heard testimony from the delegates to this effect. Now, Commissioner, you’ll forgive me if I’m out of place in doing this. If the Commission feels that forced redundancies are the most appropriate course of action here we would seek a further meeting with the company because we need to get to the bottom of this mystery about which documents are being used, what people can actually do. If you’re going to say you’re going to do it on skills, well let’s see the document that says what skills people have got.
PN576
Let’s find out, is it the matrix? Is it this safety thing that we’re hearing about? Let’s get to the bottom of that. However, Commissioner, that is only in the event that the Commission believes forced redundancies are the most appropriate. And the union again submits that there’s ample opportunity here to take a volunteer, the EBA provides for a volunteer and their current staffing levels allow for a volunteer to go. That’s all thank you, Commissioner.
PN577
MS SEGBEDZI: Just to deal with Mr McCrone’s last, or penultimate point, first. It’s said that there are a number of different documents which are being used to choose an appropriate person to be made redundant. That wasn’t the evidence that was given. The evidence that was given was that one document reflects competence and that is the safety skills check list. Absolute competence from an OH&S perspective. That was the evidence. The other document which was referred to was conceded does not reflect that standard of absolute competence. It reflects a standard a little bit lower.
PN578
And the words that Mr Pekin used is it gives them a guide as to when someone can assist in working on a saw. That document is a generous representation of the skills that were available to the company and from which they had to choose the least skilled person to take the redundancy. So Mr McCrone I think, with respect, is overstating the use of the various documents because the safety skills check list was not used. Likewise his submission that the company has used the performance and the conduct of the employees to determine who is to be made redundant is not correct.
PN579
The evidence that Mr Pekin gave is that they are aware of the performance, he is aware of the performance of the various candidates and if it came to that stage in the redundancy provision that there was a clear candidate, who coincidentally is also the candidate at an earlier stage, that is at the skills required stage. That is the candidate that they say does not have the skills required by the company for going forward. In relation to the evidence that’s been given there’s a lot of words that have been used. Competence, skilled, capable. The difficulty with them is that we’re brought back to the words that are in the agreement and the agreement says the required skills.
PN580
Now, just dealing with the point of the skills. The Commission can use the agreement and the classifications that are set out in the agreement, but that needs to be treated with caution. The evidence today has shown that in fact there is no requirement of any particular skill for a level 6 truss cutter. That position and the skills that go with it, if you like, were created and Mr Bowkett says they were created when they changed the method of work. Now, there wasn’t a date given, but it has occurred at some stage subsequent to the certification of the EBA. So we have here a set of as yet undefined skills that attach to a person in the truss cutting area who is a level 6.
PN581
Now, the evidence of the union’s witnesses that there are no additional skills. All that’s required is that the level 6 also supervise. That’s the skill for a level 6 truss cutter. Other than that they’re all the same as a level 5. That’s the proposition put by the union. What the company says is that’s not correct. First of all because it was created subsequent to the change and the method of work the Commission can infer from that there are different techniques that are being used, different skills and it is those skills, not defined by any of the witnesses, but those skills that attach to the position of level 6 employee truss cutting area as opposed to truss assembly truss cutting. So there are some different skills.
PN582
Now, when the witnesses were actually brought to this, the company’s witnesses were brought to this, Mr Bowkett said for him the level 6 truss cutter has the skill of being able to put through the same as the level 5, but for all of the saws. Not just for one or two saws that the level 5 is skilled in operating. A level 6 can put through that higher amount of timber for all saws. So the Commission can say that’s the skills that the company requires. They’re the skills. We’ve identified what they are. And the person who has those is not Mr Meehan, it’s someone else. So in this case those are the skills.
PN583
As to the requirement of those skills the evidence that’s come out today is that the employees can say this is what the job requires today and this is what we are working with today. But it’s clear that the company is looking forward. They’re looking at a cycle. They’re looking eight months in advance, 10 months, a year and they’re trying to predict where in the swing they are because they know that this is a cyclical industry and they need to make sure that they have the people at present who can assist them to meet the needs in the future. So the skills that the employees identify as being required today as a minimum aren’t necessarily the skills that the company will require into the future.
PN584
They need people to be able to train. And as to the deskilling, which I think was also the Commission’s concern, first of all the company’s evidence is that the level 6s who perform the picking and catching, or the level 5s who perform the picking and catching, in the arrangements that are proposed for today and going forward into the near future they won’t actually have to do very much picking and catching. Rare was one word used. Only occasionally I think was used by another witness. So we’re not talking about a considerable waste of these peoples’ time. The skills are important. They’re needed. As Mr Bowkett said, without someone to pick the right timber for the saw he’s got just a pile of sticks.
PN585
He needs that skill. It’s a medium to three quarter level importance according to the other witnesses. So it’s not so much, you know, a loss of skills, it’s actually maintaining that skill of picking timber, which is an important skill, but it’s also allowing them to only have to do it occasionally. And Mr Pekin said in his evidence that he didn’t think he lost too much by taking time off from cutting to do picking and catching. So the concern about deskilling is overstated and not only that, it’s something that the company is seeing as applying in the near future, but not necessarily further on when the economy picks up and the building industry turns around.
PN586
Now, I take your Honour back to our outline of submissions and the decision making process and the question of whether the voluntary redundancy should be accepted. It is intertwined with this question of the required skills because of course the person who has volunteered is a level 6 and that is the volunteer to which the company will not agree for the reason that that person has the required skills and someone else does not. So they are intertwined. On the question of reasonableness, yes it is a settled principle of the Commission that in these matters the company has the ultimate right to decide, keeping in mind that it should not act harshly, unjustly or unfairly in relation to its employees.
PN587
Now, that test is somewhat out of vogue these days, but it suffices for current purposes. The company has taken into account its future needs. It’s taken into account the need to be able to train employees, the need to maintain the multiple skills that employees have. None of those things are unfair or unjust. They’re reasonable considerations and the company says it has acted reasonably in considering whether to agree to the volunteer redundancy and it has decided that it can not because of these factors. On that basis the Commission should not interfere in the company’s selection of the employee for redundancy because it has followed the EBA and it has implemented at each stage a fair consideration of the relevant factors that it needs to take into account to keep its business going and for the business to progress and prosper into the future. Those are my submissions, your Honour.
PN588
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. That concludes the submissions on behalf of both parties. I’m going to ask the parties to return here in 20 minutes if you would. We’ll adjourn.
<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [1.14PM]
<RESUMED [1.33PM]
PN589
THE COMMISSIONER: It was common ground that this matter was appropriately a dispute relating to redundancy selection pursuant to the agreement and that the Commission has jurisdiction to determine between the opposing views on the application of the agreement pursuant to section 170LW of the Workplace Relations Act. The EBA provides for voluntary redundancy and volunteers came forward. Voluntary redundancies are unarguably preferable. It was also common ground that in the ultimate the employer had the right to reject applications for voluntary redundancy after following specific criteria and to retain in employment employees who have acquired and will use skills and experience the employer assesses it requires for the company’s future productivity and viability.
PN590
In the union’s view the employer’s chosen course will result in unnecessary excess capacity of skills, a threat of potential deskilling and unfairness in the selection process. It would rarely be appropriate for the Commission to stand in the shoes of the employer to second guess how it should conduct its business unless, of course, its decisions were seen to be incompetent, capricious, unfair or in breach of agreed terms of regulating instruments. I understand from the union’s submissions its apprehended concerns about the dichotomy between multi-skilling and a potential for deskilling.
PN591
In the circumstances of this matter I am satisfied that deskilling is not proposed. Picking and catching are skills within the scope of level 3 and through to level 6 and they are skills obtained and retained in the career progression. The company has submitted that it has a need for an overall reduction in employment numbers, but not its overall skill base. It submits that it has followed the enterprise agreement processes, but that it is unreasonable to require the company to accept the voluntary redundancy of workers that have skills to operate all equipment throughout the plant while allowing less skilled workers to remain.
PN592
It was said to be contrary to the best interests of the company for this to occur. I can find no fault with that proposition. It is accepted by both parties that employees need to be multi-skilled to allow the employer flexibility, particularly in the event of absenteeism. I am not persuaded as to the submission of the union that there would be excessive level 5 employees that would be required to run shifts regardless of absenteeism. Having considered all that was before me in these proceedings and my knowledge of the matter derived from a conference on Monday, 21 August I am unable to find any breach of the enterprise agreement redundancy selection process.
PN593
It appears to me that on the agreement criteria and the evidence and submissions before me selection of Mr Meehan for redundancy can
be justified. However,
Mr Meehan, if this occurs, is at liberty and retains his rights to make an application pursuant to section 637(1) if he so elects on the basis that he alleges that termination of his employment is harsh or unjust or unreasonable. Of course nothing
is lost by the parties taking up Mr McCrone’s invitation to hold further discussions to discuss the process and make selection
more transparent. These are my findings and my determinations. This matter is adjourned.
<ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [1.38PM]
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs
EXHIBIT #U1 OUTLINE OF SUBMISSIONS INCLUDING ATTACHMENTS PN7
SEAMUS PATRICK MCGOWAN, SWORN PN38
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MCCRONE PN38
EXHIBIT #U2 WITNESS STATEMENT OF SEAMUS MCGOWAN PN40
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS SEGBEDZI PN60
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MCCRONE PN104
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN120
NEIL GEORGE FINLEY, SWORN PN121
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MCCRONE PN121
EXHIBIT #U3 WITNESS STATEMENT NEIL FINLEY PN126
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS SEGBEDZI PN160
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MCCRONE PN222
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN242
EXHIBIT #T1 OUTLINE OF SUBMISSIONS PN247
GARY WILLIAM BOWKETT, SWORN PN265
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS SEGBEDZI PN265
EXHIBIT #T2 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MR BOWKETT PN279
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MCCRONE PN281
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS SEGBEDZI PN363
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN379
ANGELO LAURICELLA, SWORN PN381
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS SEGBEDZI PN381
EXHIBIT #T3 WITNESS STATEMENT OF ANGELO LAURICELLA PN392
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MCCRONE PN394
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS SEGBEDZI PN424
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN427
BRADLEY SCOTT PEKIN, SWORN PN429
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS SEGBEDZI PN429
EXHIBIT #T4 WITNESS STATEMENT OF BRADLEY SCOTT PEKIN PN437
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MCCRONE PN444
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS SEGBEDZI PN523
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN556
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