C2005/2494, Transcript of Proceedings [2006] AIRCTrans 326 (14 March 2006)

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

---

Workplace Relations Act 1996 14325-1

COMMISSIONER ROBERTS

C2005/2494

MR GRAHAME CAMERON
AND
MR MARK ALCHIN
OH&S Review Authority
(C2005/2494)

SYDNEY

10.14AM, WEDNESDAY, 22 FEBRUARY 2006

Continued from 14/11/2005

Hearing continuing

PN537

MR G CAMERON: I appear on behalf of the appellant.

PN538

MS R BERNASCONI: I appear for Australia Post in the case, I have been granted leave to intervene in these proceedings.

PN539

MR J FERNON: I appear for Mr Alchin, the investigator and Comcare.

PN540

THE COMMISSIONER: Is leave for Mr Fernon opposed by anybody? Leave is granted. Your application, Mr Cameron?

PN541

MR CAMERON: Before we begin, Commissioner, an issue has arisen with the appearance of the buggy and - - -

PN542

THE COMMISSIONER: What, no buggy?

PN543

MR CAMERON: And my understanding of the transcript on 18 October 2005 is that Australia Post was going to present a buggy and I was to present the buggy that was in the DVD.

PN544

THE COMMISSIONER: That's my memory of it.

PN545

MR CAMERON: The buggy and the DVD has gone missing. I had some holidays in December 2005. Upon my return from holidays the buggy had been taken, gone to another centre and it was unable to be located. We have been using a replacement buggy since then and I arranged to get that back to the delivery centre yesterday and I was under the impression that Australia Post would make arrangements to bring it into court, even though it wasn't the same buggy on the DVD. So that's why I sent the message because I wasn't really sure, because it was a different buggy but - - -

PN546

THE COMMISSIONER: Let's hear from Ms Bernasconi on that point.

PN547

MS BERNASCONI: Commissioner - - -

PN548

THE COMMISSIONER: You did undertake to present a buggy or the buggy, didn't you?

PN549

MS BERNASCONI: Well, Commissioner, no, our understanding was from the transcript on 18 October that it was made clear by the parties that in order for the DVD to be of any use, that the buggy that was used I that DVD should be brought in and what was undertaken was that Mr Cameron would seek the release of that buggy for inspection during the proceedings.

PN550

THE COMMISSIONER: That's right and you - - -

PN551

MS BERNASCONI: And that Australia Post, even though they're not a party, will produce another buggy of their choice and, Commissioner, you go on to say further on in the transcript at PN180 that Australia Post is free to produce a buggy which may or may not go against what you are saying. What we understood the position to be was that Mr Cameron would seek release of the buggy. He would bring that buggy and if we felt it was necessary we would bring another buggy.

PN552

THE COMMISSIONER: That's right, to contra his - what do you call that?

PN553

MS BERNASCONI: That's right, to contra his buggy. The 18 October transcript.

PN554

THE COMMISSIONER: I'm just trying to find the transcript myself so I've no idea what I said on that occasion.

PN555

MS BERNASCONI: In light of the circumstances my client was contacted late in the afternoon yesterday, we had ascertained that Mr Cameron had sought permission to use the buggy and we had granted that permission, or a buggy, but it certainly was not in our understanding that we were to make arrangements to bring that buggy to court today and Mr Cameron was advised that he should make arrangements for that to happen today. In light of the fact that we have no buggies here today, I've sought instructions and we are happy to make arrangements to have a buggy of our choice appear later on today for the purpose of the proceedings.

PN556

THE COMMISSIONER: Are you content to proceed on that basis, Mr Cameron, the buggy, as I understand it now, will be produced during the course of this morning, I think?

PN557

MS BERNASCONI: Yes, and that's not the buggy or the buggy that Mr Cameron wants. It's a buggy that we - - -

PN558

THE COMMISSIONER: I'll settle for a buggy at the moment, and Mr Cameron will tell me when your buggy is produced, whether that is a very similar buggy to the one he's talking about in the DVD. Is that okay, Mr Cameron?

PN559

MR CAMERON: That's okay, I would agree with that.

PN560

THE COMMISSIONER: So are you going to open, Mr Cameron? I might tell the lawyers this straight up before we start, that Mr Cameron, of course, is not qualified. I expect that his method of producing the case may not meet with your strict approval at all times, but I am going to give him a fair degree of latitude. So I would appreciate if objections are only made on matters of substance. Mr Cameron?

PN561

MR CAMERON: Commissioner, I have an opening statement. I have lodged this appeal to the Commission because I believe that the manner in which this investigation was conducted failed to address almost every issue that I raised with Australia Post in the Provisional Improvement Notice. The way in which Mr Alchin chose to conduct his investigation was, I believe, superficial, unprofessional and incomplete. As a result he failed to address many unsafe features of the buggy, which I believe has put at risk the health and safety of Australia Post employees and the public in general.

PN562

My evidence today includes a presentation from an authorised repairer engaged by Australia Post for the repair of buggies. Mr Simons has an engineering background. He will testify in support of my concerns and explain to the lay person the internal workings of the buggy. Also giving evidence here today is an experienced Postal Delivery Officer who is an authorised Health & Safety representative and a person with significant experience in use of the buggy as well as widespread contact with other users.

PN563

I believe that the material and evidence to be presented highlights the risk associated with what is generally regarded by staff and acknowledged by some management as an unsafe piece of equipment. In presenting this case I believe the investigator did not have the expertise to understand the basic mechanics of the braking system which is the most important safety feature of any moving piece of plant equipment, nor did the investigator seek advice from the person with that knowledge.

PN564

I wish to advise the Commission that I will provide evidence here today which will show that not only was the braking system unreliable, but contains a design fault which has not been recognised or dealt with by Australia Post. I also believe Mr Alchin failed to pursue his brief by not interviewing fully those PDOs, Postal Delivery Officers, in other centres who expressed similar concerns relating to the flaws in the buggy. I also intend to focus on Australia Post attitude that the buggy is seen as a low risk piece of equipment in respect to Health & Safety. My examination of Australia Post records indicates otherwise. That's my opening statement, Commissioner.

PN565

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN566

MS BERNASCONI: Commissioner, can I just address an issue of programming for the witnesses and so forth?

PN567

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN568

MS BERNASCONI: I just want to raise two matters. One is that Mr Cameron has indicated that one of his witnesses, Mr Robertson will not be available to give evidence until tomorrow. Our position, subject to the Commission's view, is that ourselves and Comcare ought be entitled to see the entirety of Mr Cameron's evidence before we put our witnesses in the witness box, but I just wanted to raise that up front.

PN569

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I think that's axiomatic.

PN570

MS BERNASCONI: Thank you.

PN571

THE COMMISSIONER: It would be unfair to you to do otherwise. So that leaves us where today? Who do we hear from today, Mr Cameron?

PN572

MR CAMERON: My first witness is Mr Rod Hopkins and Mr Larry Simons.

PN573

THE COMMISSIONER: Is there a statement from Mr Simons?

PN574

MR CAMERON: There is only the transcript from the DVD.

PN575

THE COMMISSIONER: Right. While we're talking about programming, can this matter really take three days? You're looking very bemused there, Mr Fernon.

PN576

MR FERNON: I'm not meaning to, Commissioner. It probably won't go for the whole of three days. There's a possibility that it may go into Friday, bearing in mind the matter to which my friend just referred. Could I just raise one other thing which affects me and affects me only, I've raised it with my friend?

PN577

THE COMMISSIONER: Of course.

PN578

MR FERNON: Mr Cameron, and that is owing to a personal commitment that I have tomorrow, I wonder if the Commission would consider an application that we adjourn early, perhaps around 3 o'clock?

PN579

THE COMMISSIONER: I will view that quite favourably, thank you.

PN580

MR FERNON: Yes, thank you.

PN581

THE COMMISSIONER: Either side, given my prima facie view that I'll view it favourably, does either side object to that? So we'll talk program for a moment. We'll run a full day today. I hope that your evidence, excluding Mr Robertson, will be completed today, Mr Cameron, if that's at all possible. You're somewhat in the hands of cross-examination in that regard. Now, tomorrow, will there only be Mr Robertson's evidence?

PN582

MR CAMERON: Yes, there will, Commissioner.

PN583

THE COMMISSIONER: Given the remarks of Ms Bernasconi, we'll adjourn at the conclusion of Mr Robertson's evidence tomorrow, I would think.

PN584

MR FERNON: We would think that we can probably, from our perspective, we could continue with respondent's evidence because we anticipate that Mr Robertson's evidence would be - - -

PN585

THE COMMISSIONER: So we'll just press on and see where we go by 3 pm, all right, thank you.

PN586

MR FERNON: Yes, thank you.

PN587

THE COMMISSIONER: Your first witness, Mr Cameron? Now, what about the presence of other witnesses in the Commission? Are there other witnesses present?

PN588

MR CAMERON: Mr Alchin is certainly present.

PN589

THE COMMISSIONER: He should remain present also. Anyone else who is going to give evidence from your side? I don't know who these people are, Mr Cameron?

PN590

MR CAMERON: No. I've just got my only witness, at the moment.

PN591

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Call Mr Rod Hopkins.

PN592

MR CAMERON: Commissioner, is Mr Hopkins allowed to take his witness statement into the witness box?

PN593

THE COMMISSIONER: He is. All witnesses are, otherwise they can't really swear to it. But any points like that, Mr Cameron, feel free to ask me as we go along, points of procedure.

PN594

MR CAMERON: Thank you, Commissioner.

<RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS, SWORN [10.27AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR CAMERON

PN595

MR CAMERON: Mr Hopkins, I've just asked the Commissioner are you able to have your statement with you so that you can refer to it. Do you still stand by your opening comment in your statement?---I do.

PN596

Mr Hopkins, you have stated that you have been a Postal Delivery Officer for 18 years?---Yes. I commenced in 1987 and I started at Marrickville Post Office, which became Marrickville Delivery Centre and we amalgamated, yes, in 1999 into St Peters Delivery Centre, with three other groups and then we moved to Waterloo about a year and a half ago.

PN597

In that time have you had the use of the buggy referred to in this appeal, which is the green buggy?---The green buggy. Yes, I had a foot injury about eight years ago which, prior to that - for the first 10 years I used a backpack and I incurred a foot injury and went to use a buggy about eight years ago. I had used buggies occasionally before that, as most posties did when you had really heavy work days, such as open roads and - where I worked anyway, most of the posties on those busy days would use the buggies and that might be once a month or once every couple of months, but I've used it continuously for the last eight years.

PN598

Mr Hopkins, you have stated that you have been an authorised union representative for 18 years and a Health & Safety rep for a large part of that time. Could you expand on both of those positions in relation to the buggy?---In relation to the buggy. Yes, I took on the role of the union representative shortly after I started. There was no union representative then, and have been the union representative of the different centres with the amalgamation since then. As a union representative I also was a member of the union, the CEPUs Postal Delivery Officers' Committee, for most of that time as well. In relation to the buggy, in terms of being the union representative, in the early days there was - '87 through probably to three or four years, there was no Health & Safety as such, and any issues relating to the buggies and problems, the staff would come to see me, as they would in terms of normal working conditions at the centre and as a Health & Safety representative - I'm not sure exactly the date that I started as the Health & Safety representative. It wasn't long after the program started, the Act came in in 1991. I'm not sure that the training program commenced immediately after that, but we did have a Health & Safety representative, a fellow called Joe, Joseph Monte. He was the first Health & Safety representative there, but Joe didn't stay long because the manager offended him when he told him he was an idiot and a fool to think of introducing - that Australia Post should introduce water bottles and he resigned in disgust that the treatment that the Postal Manager brought on him. But that was - - -

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XN MR CAMERON
PN599

THE COMMISSIONER: We might stick to buggies?---Okay. I mentioned that because at the time that was the attitude towards dealing with problems. It was a very autocratic, them and us situation, and it's why I became the union representative and took on the role of Health & Safety representative as well. It was a case of, if you didn't look after your own conditions, no one else looked after them for you. As a Health & Safety representative, the buggy certainly was a major part of the concerns of the staff there and, you might have further questions for me, but in terms of the buggy, it was always seen as a necessary part of the work equipment, but one that was not properly maintained or it had major flaws and just about every person who used the buggies had problems with them.

PN600

MR CAMERON: I also understand that you are a recognised Health & Safety trainer with Australia Post and a long standing representative for New South Wales Regional Health & Safety Committee?---Yes.

PN601

Can I just continue this question, Mr Hopkins. I understand that you had been a PDO representative on the CEPU Postal Delivery Committee for 18 years. Could you inform us of this background and experience in relation to the issues relating to the buggy?---I'll just try and pick up the - in terms of the CEPU involvement - - -

PN602

THE COMMISSIONER: I'd make the questions shorter. It requires quite a bit of memory on the part of the witness.

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XN MR CAMERON
PN603

MR CAMERON: I'll just go back to your involvement as a Health & Safety trainer and a member of the Regional Committee?---Yes, as a Health & Safety trainer, I was encouraged to, in my performance of my Health & Safety representative duties, I was assumed to be seen as fairly prominent and forthright, I suppose, assertive in dealing with issues and I was encouraged by both the union and management representative to become a Health & Safety trainer. I undertook that training and that's possibly - I'm guessing, it might be five years ago, six years ago now. I ran one course. I was disenchanted with the way things were - Australia Post's attitude in dealing with resolving issues in terms of the - what I saw as the full consultative approach, and so I only undertook the one training course with Australia Post. I was a member of the State Regional Health & Safety Committee probably for about five or six years and in that time it - the idea was that the structure of the organisation was that you had your local work place committee, designated work group committee and, which in my case represented the Marrickville, St Peters, Dulwich Hill and Petersham postal delivery groups, representing those four groups, and that fed in to an area network meeting of Health & Safety representatives which might have been, say, 20-odd representatives, and from there issues worked their way through to the
Regional - New South Wales Regional Health & Safety Group and then on to the State Health & Safety Group if they were not resolved along the way. In my five or six years on the Regional Health & Safety Group it was a good point for addressing issues, but not a great many problems were resolved there. It was more - it seemed to me more a listening group than a resolving group. In
that - through that process I had contact with other Health & Safety representatives, discussion of buggy issues did take place, although in the Peakhurst Network that I was involved in they were mainly motorcycle runs. There were very few buggy delivery runs, but the chap from Bankstown, the chap who delivered the Bankstown shopping area had - used the buggy and had the same problems that I'd experienced and the staff that I worked with had experienced.

PN604

THE COMMISSIONER: At some stage can you quantify what these problems with the buggy, problem or problems with the buggy is? I note from your witness statement that there's a remark, I think, that it doesn't go in a straight line?---Yes.

PN605

Probably designed by the same person who designed supermarket trolleys, but is that the only problem with it?---No, no. There are countless problems. Where to start and finish? The design of the buggy, I just wish we had a buggy here so that we could look at. The problem with the - if I start with the brakes. The problem with the brakes is that it's a mechanism fixed to a single handle and it's possibly 10 centimetres from the end of the handle grip. When the - - -

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XN MR CAMERON
PN606

MR FERNON: Commissioner, can I rise because this is an objection of substance?

PN607

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN608

MR FERNON: This is a hearing de novo, we accept that, but it is a hearing about the notice, the provisional notice that was originally issued and following that there was the investigation and now the appeal. One of the requirements of the notice is that it's set out - - -

PN609

THE COMMISSIONER: Where are you reading from?

PN610

MR FERNON: And I'm reading from section 29 of the Act.

PN611

THE COMMISSIONER: You're talking about the Occupational Health & Safety Act?

PN612

MR FERNON: I am, I'm sorry, the Occupational Health & Safety Commonwealth Employment Act 1991.

PN613

THE COMMISSIONER: So clause or section 29, yes.

PN614

MR FERNON: Section 29 is that section that provides for a Health & Safety representative to issue a provisional improvement notice, and then in subsection (4), the specifications about what the notice must contain:

PN615

The notice must specify the contravention of the Act or the Regulations that is occurring and set out the reasons for that opinion.

PN616

When one goes to the notice that was in the back issue by Mr Cameron on
4 June 2003, the contravention is set out as a contravention of section 16(1) to (a)(i) and (ii) and (c), and there's a brief description, trolley buggy, obsolete, ineffective, a host of OH&S issues, and then the reasons for the opinion are on the attachment and the attachment refers to the obsolescence of the buggy first introduced in 1975, it's essentially heavy to manoeuvre, brakes ineffective, subject to continual breakdown, lacks pneumatic tyres, the handle is designed to push with one hand, pushing with one hand places strain on the lower back when the trolley is full.

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XN MR CAMERON
PN617

Now, what the evidence is about to go to, it seems, is another range or different ranges of what are said to be concerns about the design, in particular the position, as I understand it, of the brake on the handle. The broad point is that we have the list of concerns in the notice. That is what was the subject of the notice and in my respectful submission confines what is the investigation, and what is the appeal. Whilst it's a hearing de novo, it's not a broad ranging inquiry, as it were, in to the trolley generally.

PN618

THE COMMISSIONER: Good, thank you. Do you have a view, Ms Bernasconi?

PN619

MS BERNASCONI: I agree with the submissions of my friend today, Commissioner.

PN620

THE COMMISSIONER: I thought you might. I agree with Mr Fernon, Mr Cameron. This really isn't a hearing by me in to any and all aspects of the buggy. It's a specific appeal against a decision which was based on a range of issues and information which I think you should confine yourself to those issues.

PN621

MR CAMERON: Those issues are - - -

PN622

THE COMMISSIONER: Your on appeal here. You're not engaging in a broad ranging analysis of the buggy for me to come down with some view of my own on material or information not available to the person against whose decision you're appealing. Is that clear?

PN623

MR CAMERON: Not so clear, Commissioner, because the broad term of the provisional improvement notice was under section 16 which is duties of employers in relation to their employees and section 1 is in the provisional improvement notice and that is, an employer must take all reasonable, practical steps to protect the health and safety at work of the employees.

PN624

THE COMMISSIONER: Which is why you issued the PIN.

PN625

MR CAMERON: The provisional improvement notice. Now, the scope of the investigation that was the directive from Comcare to Mr Alchin, this is number 5 in the same exhibit.

PN626

THE COMMISSIONER: Just wait a moment. Just identify what 5 says?

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XN MR CAMERON
PN627

MR CAMERON: The directions to conduct an investigation - - -

PN628

THE COMMISSIONER: Mine appears to be factual investigator's field notes.

PN629

MR CAMERON: Sorry, it might be 4, Commissioner. Directions to conduct an investigation.

PN630

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, tab 4. Yes, Mr Cameron?

PN631

MR CAMERON: And the direction is for the investigator to investigate whether the requirements of the Act have been complied with or whether there has been any contraventions in the Act or Regulations. Now, that section 16 is a broad section but I believe that all facets of the buggy should be taken into account and these issues were presented to the investigator on his interview with myself and some other staff members.

PN632

THE COMMISSIONER: So you're saying that the evidence you're leading at the moment goes to the same issues as were raised with the investigator?

PN633

MR CAMERON: Yes.

PN634

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Fernon?

PN635

MR FERNON: Commissioner, I don't want to make a big point about it.

PN636

THE COMMISSIONER: We could be here all day on this.

PN637

MR FERNON: Exactly, and a way of dealing with it is to hear the evidence and we can argue about it in due course.

PN638

THE COMMISSIONER: That's always been my preferred position.

PN639

MR FERNON: But I did wish to make the point because I did think it was an objection of substance, but - - -

PN640

THE COMMISSIONER: Certainly your point is one which I will have to consider in my decision making as to what material I have regard to.

PN641

MR FERNON: Yes, Commissioner.

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XN MR CAMERON
PN642

THE COMMISSIONER: On you go, Mr Cameron. Mr Cameron, before you do, you're not familiar with this procedure and I hope I don't get myself into trouble with the other side about this, but it is usual when a witness enters the box with a witness statement to seek to tender that witness statement. It normally follows asking the witness whether they have a produced a witness statement, what it consists of and whether they swear that it's all true and correct. You don't have to, but if you want me to consider it as sworn evidence, you have to follow that procedure.

PN643

MR CAMERON: Yes, I'd like to follow that procedure now.

PN644

THE COMMISSIONER: The witness statement of Mr Hopkins becomes exhibit Cameron 3.

EXHIBIT #CAMERON3 STATEMENT OF RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS

PN645

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, go ahead, please.

PN646

MR CAMERON: Thank you, Commissioner.

PN647

In point 2 of your statutory declaration, Mr Hopkins, you comment on the unreliability of the braking system. You also state that the brake doesn't necessarily engage, even when the brake lever is on. Would you care to comment on that?---Well, the point I was making before was leading to, where the brake lever is placed, it's secured by a screw and a washer. Now, the screw and the washer, over time, become loose and the brake act was you actually putting it on, and that creates a problem if the buggy then, if the brake is working, the buggy suddenly comes to a stop or you might even be, with your mail, you might be going to put it into the letterbox and you'll just touch the lever and it'll go on unintentionally and the buggy jerks to a stop and the handle will go into your stomach if you're not careful and spear you in the stomach, or the lever itself, you have the buggy here where you can observe it, the lever is a sharpish piece of metal and if your handle, because it comes to a sudden stop, your hand will go forward and often, many times, it's actually penetrated the skin on the hand, but the reason I mention the placement of the buggy, as for the actual braking of the buggy, the problem, and I'm not a mechanic, but those of us that use them, know the circumstances that you can apply or go to apply it sometimes, it won't connect and you've got to either be aware of that or just lift the front wheels and try and get the locking device fixed and the lever will go into place. You know that the lever hasn't gone into place every time you apply it. It just seems to be a flaw in the system. Sorry, there was another part of your question there, but I - have I answered?

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XN MR CAMERON
PN648

No, I think you have answered it. You also state that the brake lever as well as the handle can cause injury when the front wheels jag on uneven surfaces?---Well, I've just mentioned that that does happen and the circumstances that it happens are, I've worked in Marrickville for the 18 years, different parts of Marrickville for the 18 years that I've been a postie. Now, for those people that don't know Marrickville, it's an inner western suburb with house frontages of - I use feet - 15 to 20 feet, a lot of places. There are no driveways and often the pavement from fence to gutter might be four, four to five feet wide. With the gentrification of the area, street trees have gone in, shrubs have gone in and you're in a situation where you've got to manoeuvre down a very narrow path. The problem is that the street trees have now, because of the gentrification, they've uplifted the paving and in every street virtually there are situations where you get sections of pavement that are uplifted by the trees and with the buggy rolling through, especially with weight in them, they won't bounce, they hit a jag, stop and again you're in that situation where the handle will spear you in the stomach and your hand will go forward on to the brake lever. As I said, it's a design issue that has never been properly understood in the circumstances I'm talking about and in those areas, that kind of terrain.

PN649

Mr Hopkins, you so state there is no provision in the saddle bags to prevent load shifting resulting the bugging toppling backwards on to the ground?---No. That's very much the case and I've read in the Safety Officer Operating Procedure statement, you're talking about a buggy with 60 kilos of weight in it on an even slope or on an incline of having 45 kilos, and I can tell you that you don't need anywhere near that weight, you might only need five or six kilos in a buggy and if that load shifts from front to back, the buggy will topple over backwards on to you.

PN650

What causes the load to shift?---Because there's nowhere - when you put your bundles of mail - prepare your mail to go out for delivery or pick your mail up at the depot box and you load it into the number sequence, each street, you unload from the back of the buggy because that's the easiest part of the buggy to get at to get the next load of mail, the next bundle of mail, and what happens is that as soon as a space is created, when you apply the brake the - or often, if the brakes don't work, which often is the case, you point the buggy into a fence. What happens then, with the brake on or going into the fence, is that the load shifts backwards. Once you get to a stage where there's insufficient weight evenly distributed in the buggy it will fall back on you and it's a common problem. Instead of having - I don't know whether it's my role here to say it, but as Health & Safety representative in terms of offering recommendations, there should be some way of having compartments in there so that you can take your mail out and the mail in front of it doesn't shift backwards when you put the brake on.

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XN MR CAMERON
PN651

A further claim that you made concerns handles breaking regularly due to their inability to copy with weight of mail carried in the terrain traversed?---Of the - when we were at Marrickville Delivery Centre, we had 15 rounds and probably 10 of those were - 11 probably were buggy runs because of the nature of the area. Since then there've been some motorised runs put in. Now, getting back to the buggy handle, you could look at virtually every buggy in that delivery centre, and even the ones at St Peters or the ones now, and you will find that unless they've replaced the whole mechanism, every buggy handle has been welded because it's been broken, and it's been broken more than once, and ideally if we had a buggy here today that had been in use, you would see that it's been welded because it's broken. In the time that I've been using them, in the eight years, I've had two break on me. One in a very awkward situation crossing the street, negotiating the gutter and the handle brakes and you've got no control over it at all. If that had happened in the middle of a road and I do Sydenham Road and parts of Marrickville Road and they're very, very busy. Sydenham Road takes all of the Botany Bay container traffic and it is most dangerous and I face that situation on this run and as well as on the other run that I have. Fortunately I was able just to pull it back on to the footpath, up the guttering on to the footpath and just steer it and make a phone call to the delivery centre.

PN652

THE COMMISSIONER: Just pause there, witness. When is this buggy coming in, to your understanding?

PN653

MS BERNASCONI: Commissioner, within the next half an hour.

PN654

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Cameron, a question to you and also separately to your witness. Can the evidence of this gentleman be concluded without the presence of the buggy?

PN655

MR CAMERON: It would be beneficial if the buggy is here.

PN656

THE COMMISSIONER: It's a yes or no question.

PN657

MR CAMERON: No.

PN658

THE COMMISSIONER: We'll press on with this evidence but we'll adjourn if we have to to await the presence of the buggy before he concludes his evidence-in-chief. All right, go on?---Another - if I can go back to the braking system. Another thing that has happened is the brake cable breaking on you when you're in the middle of a round or become detached from the wheel compartment. It's one of those things that, you could check the buggy before you go out, just like a broken handle. I mean, you're not going to take a buggy out that's got a weak handle, but these things happen on part of the delivery process. The other thing that I say, there's been no maintenance program implemented in the period that I've been using the buggy - or buggies have been in use except discussion of one being introduced late last year in December.

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XN MR CAMERON
PN659

MR CAMERON: I refer, Commissioner, to attachment 6. It's the risk assessment of the PDA buggy and I'd like to go to the second last - - -

PN660

THE COMMISSIONER: What's the heading on the document?

PN661

MR CAMERON: Sorry, Commissioner?

PN662

THE COMMISSIONER: Now I've got the wrong tab. I've got it, thank you.

PN663

MR CAMERON: I'd like to go to the third last page. It's the letter that was sent from Stephen Hehir. It's the - - -

PN664

THE COMMISSIONER: I take it you're referring the witness' attention to this document, he doesn't have it.

PN665

MR CAMERON: Sorry?

PN666

THE COMMISSIONER: Does the witness have the document?---I don't, but I'm familiar with it.

PN667

MR CAMERON: Yes, you're familiar with this.

PN668

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I want the witness to have the document in front of him.

PN669

MR CAMERON: All right.

PN670

THE COMMISSIONER: You may approach the witness. You must not communicate directly with the witness. Just hand him the document. Go back to where you were and ask him your question, please.

PN671

MR CAMERON: I refer to the - it's the third last paragraph where Stephen Hehir refers to negotiating gutters and he talks - goes on to say that the way that a Postal Delivery Officer should negotiate a gutter is to use a dynamic lift. Do you see that, Mr Hopkins?---Yes, I do.

PN672

What is your interpretation of a dynamic lift?---Well, the first time I'd heard of a dynamic lift was when I saw this material late in 2005. I know what a dynamic lift is now and it's using two hands to negotiate steep inclines or steps or taking the buggy down a gutter or up a gutter. That's my understanding of it.

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XN MR CAMERON
PN673

If you were to do this dynamic lift, what would you do with your mail while you were using the dynamic lift?---Well, I don't know what you could do with the mail. It's an issue that I've raised elsewhere because I can have a bundle of mail that's as big as my hand and I've got to negotiate gutters because, as I say, there's no runways or driveways or very few on my run, and I have to - there's no way I can do it, holding the buggy's handle with two hands, unless I put that mail back in to the buggy and when I go down an incline or up an incline, that mail is just going to get out of sequence, out of order. There's no way I can do that. I have to use one hand. If there was runway, a driveway, I could use it.

PN674

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Cameron, I'm becoming increasingly concerned that we're just going to run over this territory again when the buggy gets here. You say half an hour, Ms Bernasconi?

PN675

MS BERNASCONI: Yes, but it might be sooner.

PN676

THE COMMISSIONER: I honestly think it's going to be better to wait for the buggy. It's going to be double handling otherwise. Now, in relation to the buggy, do you wish to demonstrate in the Commission, that's okay. If you need to demonstrate it to me or whatever, outside or in any other circumstances, that can be arranged as well. We're adjourned to await the buggy.

<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.02AM]
<RESUMED [11.41AM]

PN677

THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Bernasconi?

PN678

MS BERNASCONI: Commissioner, we have a buggy. I'm not sure whether you want it brought up to the witness or - - -

PN679

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I'm in the hands of Mr Cameron, but I'd suggest, Mr Cameron, that you manoeuvre near your witness. With some trepidation, Mr Cameron, I say feel free to traverse earlier evidence if it needs to be explicated by reference to the buggy, but keep it brief, if you would. Mr Hopkins, feel free to rise if you need to, to look at the buggy or point out some factor of it, but just stay in contact somehow with that microphone when you're speaking?---With the microphone.

PN680

MR CAMERON: Before we begin, Commissioner, I just point out to the Commissioner that this isn't the buggy that was under investigation, but for the purposes of this demonstration will suffice.

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XN MR CAMERON
PN681

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it's not good enough to suffice. What I want to know is, is this buggy the same model, design, et cetera, as the buggy that you complained of?---The only difference is the .... you'll see in the DVD that the model is a green model, which is the soft sided compartments. The frame, the actual frame - everything else is the same except the compartment and there's a whole .... soft sided vinyl ....

PN682

So is this a later and improved model or what?---I don't know if it's much later. I think the capacity .... is more than the green one.

PN683

MS BERNASCONI: Commissioner, if I could just explain, we have also made a call to get some green bags to show you what the green bags look like, but my instructions are that the frame, the wheels, the braking system, the handle and the brake are identical to the one with the green bags and the only difference is the width of the red bag. The green buggies, as I understand it, are used for particular runs where there's narrow entranceways, for example, in the CBD where access is required in narrow doorways and so forth and rather than having this metal bag, it's a soft sided bag which is slightly skinnier, but the braking - - -

PN684

THE COMMISSIONER: There are black ones as well, aren't there?

PN685

MR CAMERON: I believe it's just the older the - - -

PN686

MS BERNASCONI: It's probably just the green has turned black.

PN687

THE COMMISSIONER: It must be my eyes.

PN688

MS BERNASCONI: But we've arranged for some of those bags to be available, but based on the evidence that the evidence has given, the issues - - -

PN689

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, the issues, Mr Cameron, appear to relate to the handle, the braking system, that sort of thing. I just want to be absolutely clear that you're saying from your side that I can rely upon my observations of this buggy.

PN690

MR CAMERON: That's correct, Commissioner.

PN691

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay, proceed.

PN692

MR CAMERON: Mr Hopkins, I'll just take you back to a couple of points that you've already gone over and now having the buggy here, the brake lever, could you just stand up and run through that evidence - - -

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XN MR CAMERON
PN693

THE COMMISSIONER: If you just attend to the buggy, my associate will attend to a microphone?---.... may be new but there are very few of them around. In fact in the centre I work we haven't sighted this at all. We've got an older red one. It's good to see that Australia Post has now introduced some safety covers into them, but it's not the same buggy in terms of the carrying capacity or the fact that the - whereas the green buggy will fall back on you quite easily, this one, the load is better spread than the green buggy and - but I'm not sure, if we do a test with the weight in there, whether it will come back on you. The green one certainly will.

PN694

So you don't agree with Mr Cameron, do you, that I can rely on this one?---Well, I agree that the braking system looks to be the same and - but there's a different design structure, slightly different design structure and if you bring the green bags here, they're not going to be of any use because they work on a different - as Mr Cameron said, they work on a different basis. There are rods going across to hold the pannier bags in, but the pannier bags are much narrower, carry less volume. These are better balance, but again, there are very few of them around.

PN695

Where does that leave me? The question is directed me to Mr Cameron?

PN696

MR CAMERON: Commissioner, as you said, essentially the main issues are the braking system, handle, and, as far as the framework goes of this buggy that's here now, it's no different than the green buggy. I agree with what Mr Hopkins has said as far as the metal carrier bags, pannier bags, weight would be distributed differently, but the main focus of this appeal is the brakes and the brakes - - -

PN697

THE COMMISSIONER: You're the appellant, Mr Cameron, so you're happy to rely upon this buggy?

PN698

MR CAMERON: I am happy and if it is of any use to bring in the green buggy tomorrow morning, I'll make sure that I can bring along the green buggy tomorrow morning.

PN699

THE COMMISSIONER: Feel free to do so.

PN700

MR CAMERON: Thank you, Commissioner.

PN701

Could you just go back to the brake lever?---Yes. The point I was making before about the brake lever is that it is placed over time, with repairs, sometimes they'll move down a few centimetres down the handle, but the point I was making with the braking system, first of all, is that it's based on a - in this case, a different washer type. It might be a little bit more secure, but normally it's a round metal washer which in time comes loose, this becomes very loose, and it actually goes on just with - unintentionally and when it does, when you're walking along the street, this, especially with weight in it, this will spear you in the stomach when that is looser and falls into place and catches you. The other thing that can happen is that you'll - it might be a bit awkward - - -

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XN MR CAMERON
PN702

.....?---Yes, yes, it's a Health & Safety issue, but with a load on and especially going up a hill - you see, this is another issue that's a problem. You've got a handle here that, and with weight on, you've got a bundle of mail in this hand .... as loose as that, but it is an issue, there's no - you've got a bundle of mail and you're getting ready, you're looking for any obstacles or whatever, it's a matter
of - and you've got a time factor in delivering the mail, you - it's a matter
of - probably it's better if I have some space to walk. Can I move down on to the floor area? And I'll just show you the way which you normally walk, the speed at which you normally walk, so it becomes a - as I say, I've got full frontages and it's a matter of taking your right hand off, getting the mail from your left hand and putting it in the box and then brake, off, and walking back. Now, with the buggies that we're using, which are the original type, there are the malfunctions in the brake, there's - I don't know whether I can - the ruts in the footpath or uplifted pavement, you can be walking along with a load in there and those front wheels won't negotiate a divot like that. Because the wheels are smaller in the front and the weight is sort of - load is there, they'll hit a rut and they'll just stop. There's no suspension as such that will lift them up over it. You've got to lift it with your hands. So you hit that jag and again this handle goes into your stomach. You talk about, there's the power lift or whatever.

PN703

Dynamic lift?---Dynamic lift. They dynamic lift is supposed to work on the basis of approaching a gutter and I use both hands, and in this case you really need to move that brake lever down because to get two hands in there, immediately that is cutting into my hand. So - - -

PN704

THE COMMISSIONER: Just demonstrate this dynamic lift?---Well, the dynamic lift is, presuming there's a gutter there, I've got my mail in this hand, unless I put that mail in there, and then do the dynamic lift, I've got a problem with height. I've got a bundle of mail there and I put it across here, I can't hold on to the mail properly anyway.

PN705

Why don't you just put the mail back in the basket?---Well, to put it in the basket, I've got bundles of mail, I've got wet weather gear and what happens is the order, the sequence of that mail, because there are magazines in there, there are little tiny letters and all the things, unless I elastic band them and put it back in, I can't do that dynamic lift without either the mail being disturbed or, and as I say, you just can't do it, but even with two hands on this buggy as it is, to get it up and - - -

PN706

The dynamic lift basically is always .... gutter?---Well, except that the .... isn't based on a single - but in this case, I mean, this is a clear example, this looks brand new to me, buggy, that brake lever is placed in the wrong place anyway. This is an issue. That'll come off - if I've got significant weight in on a hot day, that will come off. On a hot day that will come off.

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XN MR CAMERON
PN707

Mr Hopkins is referring to a plastic covering on the handle?---Yes.

PN708

Is that all you wish to - - -

PN709

MR CAMERON: Yes. Well, the dynamic lift, is that what forces the handle to brake, is that what you're saying?---No. In fact, the dynamic lift may cause less brakeage in the handle because when you've only got one hand and you're going down gutters, the pressure always seems to come on this area here. If you're spreading them, if you're taking that pressure off and going down or up, it probably might be coming back on through the bar on to your hands, but as it is you tend to let it drop with one hand when you're going - and you've got 10, say, 10, 20, 30 kilos of mail in it, to stop the reverberations, when you go down the incline, down the gutter, you get reverberations coming back up the arm so you tend momentarily to let it go down and drop in a way, and what happens is that brakes - you look at any used buggy and it's - I don't know whether it's aluminium, but the brakeage is in this area here. It's never up here. It's never anywhere else. It's in this juncture.

PN710

THE COMMISSIONER: This is not a video transcript. So you'll have to specify what parts you're referring to?---Okay. The brakeage is on the junction of the join to the buggy, join to the actual frame of the buggy. I don't know if that's clear enough to you. But I've gone over the jagging and the brake lever, which is new at the moment, but after, you know, some use, it's going to - even that, with that special washer on it, is going to loosen up. I can feel it. You can just - it's - - -

PN711

MR CAMERON: While you're there, Mr Hopkins, my next question refers to the front letter carrier which is mentioned in the report. The front letter carrier, Commissioner, I have one here and it's on the DVD, and it's the - - -

PN712

THE COMMISSIONER: Would you show it to Mr Fernon and Ms Bernasconi, please.

PN713

MR CAMERON: It's main use, or it was developed for the motorcycle rider, so this keeps on the front of the motorcycles and it enables the motorcycle rider to carry their mail that they're distributing in this front letter carrier because they - - -

PN714

THE COMMISSIONER: What's this got to do with the buggy?

PN715

MR CAMERON: Yes, well, it's throughout the report that there is - that the actual investigator was told that Post are currently developing a front letter carrier for the buggy, and this is three years ago, and that front letter carrier, the front letter carrier, there has been two attempts to attach one to my buggy and they come off in a matter of days and the main reason is there's nowhere to attach it to the buggy and also ideally that would sit back here, back at the back of the buggy, which, when there's weight in here - - -

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XN MR CAMERON
PN716

THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Bernasconi was going to rise with a matter of substance.

PN717

MS BERNASCONI: Yes, Commissioner. Mr Cameron has made a decision not to be a witness in these proceedings and he wrote to the Commission late last week withdrawing his evidence. I just ask that Mr Cameron not be given too much latitude to give evidence from the bar table.

PN718

THE COMMISSIONER: I'm not sure what Mr Cameron is doing about evidence. In fact I should have said this before. Mr Cameron did write to me and say that because he was conducting the case he couldn't give evidence. Through my associate I informed Mr Cameron that in these proceedings I would allow him to both be the advocate and to enter the witness box. You've decided not to give evidence, have you, Mr Cameron?

PN719

MR CAMERON: That is correct, Commissioner.

PN720

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Anyway, I don't think Mr Cameron has crossed any boundaries yet.

PN721

MR CAMERON: Can I ask Mr Hopkins to explain the front letter carrier?---Yes. I've got some knowledge of the front letter carrier and I don't know if Post records are as current as they should be, but when I was on the Regional - New South Wales Regional State ACT Committee, we had a prototype made up and I understand, I saw documentation to say it was approved. Now, the background to it is that the chap that I work next to at Marrickville actually made the prototype, a fellow by the name of Ian Sleeman, and he used that on - that was the only buggy of this type in the centre, which read the - he did all the businesses, and this was the best model for him to deliver the business runs in because of bulk. Now, I know the structure of it. There's a bar that fits on - clamps on here and sits up, this letter carrier sits up so that you can do your double lift by putting your mail back in this pouch and it stays in place. The problem was - - -

PN722

THE COMMISSIONER: This goes to the creation of a better buggy, doesn't it?
---A better buggy.

PN723

Correct?---A better buggy.

PN724

A better buggy. Does it go to the matter before me?

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XN MR CAMERON
PN725

MR CAMERON: It does, Commissioner. It was in my interview with Mr Walker and Mr Alchin, there was mention of it, and Australia Post representatives, Mr Frede also spoke to Mr Alchin about the front letter carrier.

PN726

THE COMMISSIONER: But it didn't form any part of your two PINs, did it?

PN727

MR CAMERON: There wasn't specific mention of the front letter carrier.

PN728

THE COMMISSIONER: Where does knowledge of the front letter carrier take me in terms of the appeal that you find?

PN729

MR CAMERON: In terms of - in just, I make mention of it because it was information that was provided from Australia Post to Mr Alchin.

PN730

THE WITNESS: The point - sorry, Commissioner, can I go on?

PN731

THE COMMISSIONER: You may?---The point I'm about to make is that several other prototypes were made and put on the green buggy, but on each occasion - and then were used for weeks on end by other staff at the centre. They've all been taken off, because what's happened is it raised the weight dimension and the buggy would, as I said before, will topple over with weight on here, but with the green buggy, with the mail, substantial mail in the letter carrier, it'll topple over all the time, so it's been taken off. The point I'm making is that while there's talk of this pouch being created, it's been trialled and it's been effective on the green buggy. The green buggy is the predominant buggy operating in New South Wales.

PN732

MR CAMERON: Thank you, Mr Hopkins.

PN733

THE COMMISSIONER: Go back to the witness box.

PN734

MR CAMERON: I have just a few more questions for you. Mr Hopkins, you also state that there have been major problems in getting spare parts and having buggies serviced regularly. Would you please explain and tell us the consequences if spare parts nor repair are available?---It's been a major problem throughout my time with Australia Post with replacement parts for the buggy. The buggy comes from, I believe, the United States and we've had to scrounge around from delivery centre to delivery centre to try and get spare parts. We've actually - and I'll give you some background there. The pannier bags, the stitching came apart and it was left up to the individual postie to try and find out somewhere to get bags either stitched or new bags. I was given the job of going to Colourful Canvas and some other companies on my run to get quotes for bags, which they couldn't do for us. They were taken to boot makers and they didn't have the machines to do it. Eventually, and I'm talking about three or four months later, we managed to get bags from the City Street Delivery Centre, but it was like, a favour had been done for us. That was just the bags. Brakes were the same problem. I've had a buggy with no brakes on it for six months. In fact, there's one sitting back at my centre now where I've lifted three particular issues where the steering's gone, the front wheel bearings have gone and it won't go straight, the brakes didn't work and there was one other aspect, I just can't recall at the moment. I think bags were coming apart. But in all cases, we've had a situation where, for many years we had a contractor, called a repair person, who repaired the buggies but also repaired and installed the depot boxes and he worked for the area network and you could never rely on him being there from week to week or month to month, and he had the same problem as well, of getting parts. The only way we've been able to overcome problems, often, is to cannibalise other buggies and if you go to my centre, that's the situation at the moment. There are spare parts laying around because runs have been motorised and the buggies taken apart to provide replacement parts for the working buggies.

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XN MR CAMERON
PN735

Good, thank you, Mr Hopkins. I'd like to say you are the Health & Safety representative. Have you made any, or you have said that, but what have you don't to try and represent these issues for the organisation?---The efforts that I've made are in - under the Act we're required to have quarterly meetings, Health & Safety meetings. In my designated work group we have three monthly inspections of equipment at the centre and on numerous occasions I have listed the problem of spare parts in there. A lack of access for spare parts for buggies, buggies not working, people using buggies without brakes and it really hasn't - all I did was just put it down and you waited until you got spare parts. It was a situation where I could have put a provisional improvement notice on, but in those days it was sacrilege to do such a thing. You know, you were considered out of order to do that. Those reports that I put in didn't go any further than the delivery centre.

PN736

Thank you, Mr Hopkins. That concludes my witness, Commissioner.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BERNASCONI [12.07PM]

PN737

MS BERNASCONI: Mr Hopkins, I just want to take you to - you've given some evidence today about a number of issues that you see with the buggies and I just want to take you through those matters. The first matter that you raised was that the brake mechanism gets a bit loose and has a propensity to engage unexpectedly and suddenly stop, is that - - -?---Yes.

PN738

It's the case, isn't it, that that issue is something that is capable of being remedied via having the brake mechanism repaired?---Well, it depends on the extent of
the - I'm not - it's not just - I suppose you might say it's a matter of tightening a screw, but I don't think it is, because that's done and it doesn't take long before you're out on the run and it'll recur.

PN739

The second issue that you dealt with was that occasionally the brake won't connect on the first push of the lever, is that correct?---Yes.

PN740

And it's the case, isn't it, that if you check that it hasn't in fact engaged, that that would overcome that particular issue?---Well, to do that you have to put the wheel down and it's like trying to get it into a position where it will lock and you just can't be sure when that's going to happen. I mean, I'm not saying you have to go 10 feet, three metres, but it's just often won't engage when you want it to.

PN741

But it's a matter of checking that it does?---Provided you don't go past the letter box, yes.

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XXN MS BERNASCONI
PN742

The third issue that you raised was that your particular, as I understood it, your particular round in Marrickville has changed considerably over the last few years with the gentrification of the area and that has led to perhaps a change in the nature of the terrain on the round, was that your evidence?---More or less that's the case. Some of the trees are older, the shrubs that council might have put in 10 or 15 years ago, and they're causing problems as well. But I live at Annandale and I had the same problem with the front of my place where I live. I think it's the inner city generally.

PN743

You'd be aware, though, that the safe operating procedure, or Australia Post's position is that buggies are not suitable for every round, are they?---That's a decision you'd have to make - Australia Post would have to make, I suppose.

PN744

That's right, but certain rounds are identified as being appropriate for use with a buggy and some are appropriate for use with a backpack and some for a motorcycle, is that the case?---It's not the case as I know it that any round is not suitable for a buggy. What - my understanding of Australia Post policy is they determine what is suitable themselves and I think time factors influence that as well. I think the time factors, the buggies do take longer to deliver with.

PN745

Have you seen the safety operating procedure for the PDO buggy?---Interestingly I did see it. I saw it late last year. It was sort of given to me unannounced and I was asked if I'd talk to - run the other buggy users in the centre through it, yes. It was late last year, but my understanding is that the one that I saw, Mr Cameron gave me, the national headquarters one, was back in the '90s and I've not
seen - that's with the power grip or whatever the grip is called - I had not seen that before and it's the first time - in my years of use of the buggy the only instructions I've ever received came mid to late last year. That's the only safety observation or safety operating procedure that I've seen. That's after eight years of use.

PN746

Another comment that you made was that up until late last year you were not aware of any regular maintenance program in place by Australia Post. Are you aware that Australia Post will give evidence in these proceedings that it has now introduced a regular servicing and maintenance program?---I'm aware that in - I think it was December last year, only two months ago, that there was a program to commence, but I don't know what might have triggered that.

PN747

In relation to the front letter carrier, you've given some evidence about that, you don't say, do you, that the absence of that front letter carrier means that the buggy should be completely withdrawn from use, do you?---Well, the point, and I probably didn't make it clearly enough, the point I was trying to make is that if you're going to have - rely on this double hand grip, you need a front letter carrier and the point I was making was that on the green buggies, which are the predominant buggies, the weight balance has been the issue, that to have it on there - which, as I say, we trialled several, and they've all been taken off since.

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XXN MS BERNASCONI
PN748

You've given evidence in your statement that you have been a PDO for a long period of time and you're an HSR and an HSR trainer, Health & Safety representative trainer?---Yes.

PN749

You're well aware of the correct process that Australia Post requires to notify of any OH&S incident?---Depending on the - depending on the severity of the incident.

PN750

That's right. For example, if there is an injury or a near miss type incident, an employee is supposed to fill out what's known as a P400 form, that's correct?
---P400 form, yes, I'm aware of the P400.

PN751

And you've filled out P400 forms before?---I have, yes.

PN752

And are you aware that Australia Post keeps records of all the P400 forms which are lodged?---Yes. When they're completed.

PN753

Yes, and are they completed by the employee and the management or - - -?
---Well, if it's a response in terms of the procedure, yes, I'd say that generally most people are unfamiliar with the form and need some assistance to complete it.

PN754

I'd like to show you a document. If you have a look at that document there will be some evidence given by Australia Post later about that document, but it's a report which Australia Post has run on all the P400 reports that you have lodged. Could you just have a look at that document and confirm for me that there are no entries on that sheet in relation to the PDO buggy?---Without going through it, I know that I haven't put a P400 in on the buggy.

PN755

I'd like to show you another document, and Commissioner, I might just ask that that document be marked for identification at this point.

PN756

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I was wondering about that. You're not tendering the document as an exhibit?

PN757

MS BERNASCONI: I will through my own witnesses, Commissioner. Will it be given an MFI number, Commissioner?

PN758

THE COMMISSIONER: Do we have any MFIs so far?

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XXN MS BERNASCONI
PN759

MS BERNASCONI: Not that I'm aware of.

MFI #BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS

PN760

MS BERNASCONI: Commissioner, I've handed the witness a copy of the witness statement of Mr Peter Frede which has been filed by us in these proceedings and it's open at attachment PF2 to Mr Frede's statement.

PN761

THE COMMISSIONER: PF2, you say, is it?

PN762

MS BERNASCONI: Yes. It's page 18 of the attachments marked in the bottom right hand corner.

PN763

THE COMMISSIONER: That's helpful, thank you.

PN764

MS BERNASCONI: Mr Hopkins, you gave some evidence earlier today that along the lines that there are major flaws with the buggy and almost every person in your delivery centre who has used them has had a problem with them, do you remember that?---Yes, yes.

PN765

If I could ask you to look through this document which is attachment PF2, Mr Frede will give evidence that what that report is, is a summary of all incidents for New South Wales and ACT for the period 31 May 2003 to 31 October 2005 of all the P400 reports for New South Wales and ACT, and I just wanted you to have a look through that document and tell me if any of the employees from your delivery centre who you say have had so many problems with the buggy are shown on that document?---Well, I don't know that I can - how many pages are there? All I can tell you at this stage is that there was a P400 put in by Greg Penfold last year where the brakes didn't work and the buggy had careered down the street and hit a car. Now, I don't know if that's in there and I don't know exactly what day or - it was the end of - well, it probably was about October because I went on holidays in November. But that was reported by him and I know that that was put in.

PN766

Do you see that on this list?---Well, the writing's very - I can't see his name here, but I can state, you know, quite categorically that it was put in.

PN767

If you could just have a look at the list, though, and confirm for me whether there are any entries on that document which relate to either Marrickville or St Peters Delivery Centre with respect to the buggy?---The writing's so small.

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XXN MS BERNASCONI
PN768

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, you're looking for Marrickville and what else?
---St Peters Delivery Centre.

PN769

Thank you?---St Peters here, what's that about? It's a different issue. I can't see the one relating to Greg Penfold. I apologise - - -

PN770

MS BERNASCONI: Can I just stop you there. My question is whether you - first of all, let's take it in stages. I suggest to you that there's no entries on that document which relate to the Marrickville, employees from the Marrickville Delivery Centre?---Well, I'm assuming, but yes.

PN771

THE COMMISSIONER: What areas does Marrickville cover?---St Peters, Dulwich Hill, Petersham.

PN772

There is one for St Peters, isn't there?

PN773

MS BERNASCONI: Yes, we'll come to that, Commissioner.

PN774

Just going back, I put that to you, but I would actually like you to take the time to go through the document and confirm for me that there are, in fact, no entries relating to employees from the Marrickville Delivery Centre on that document?
---In terms of a buggy?

PN775

Yes?---Not that I can see.

PN776

Thank you. And I'd ask that you do that same exercise with respect to employees from the St Peters Delivery Centre, if you could look through and tell me whether you see any entries from employees from St Peters?---It wouldn't be Marrickville. It would be listed at St Peters Delivery, and there was only the one that I could see there.

PN777

Yes, and that's the one on the last page and K. Hill?---Mm.

PN778

But otherwise no entries that you can see for St Peters?---Not listed there, no.

PN779

Are you aware that the PIN that Mr Cameron put in place related specifically to the Botany Delivery Centre?---I am.

PN780

Have you ever worked at the Botany Delivery Centre?---No, but I've visited there many times.

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XXN MS BERNASCONI
PN781

You give evidence today that you've used a backpack for mail delivery in the past?---I did.

PN782

Do you have - do you prefer using the backpack or the buggy?---Well, I mentioned at the time that I had an injured foot and I went on to use the buggy.

PN783

Do you have a preference for either, or you must use the buggy?---Well, I have a preference in that I know the backpack was causing me problems, injuries. So naturally I prefer the buggy.

PN784

Are you on sick leave today from Australia Post?---I am.

PN785

Just in the last dot point of your statement you say that Australia Post has not made any attempt to improve the safe operation of buggies. You're not a member of the Australia Post management, I take it?---No, no, I'm not.

PN786

THE COMMISSIONER: I take it that there's an obvious answer to that, isn't there?

PN787

MS BERNASCONI: Well, Commissioner, yes, and it may well be an other obvious question, but you're not a party to all the decisions that Australia Post makes with respect to the buggies, are you?---Well, in terms of safety I should be notified.

PN788

THE COMMISSIONER: If you could answer the question as put to you, please?---Sorry, the question again was?

PN789

MS BERNASCONI: The question was that you are not a party to all of the decisions that Australia Post makes with respect to the buggies?---No, not the decisions. The implementation.

PN790

And so it goes, I think, that you're not in a position to make the statement that you make in that paragraph, that Australia Post has not made any attempt to improve the safe operations of the buggy because you are not in a position to know what Australia Post has attempted or not attempted to do?---Only in terms of my own centre.

PN791

In relation to - I asked you a question earlier about your being aware of the appropriate processes for notifying where an incident or an injury occurs?---Mm.

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XXN MS BERNASCONI
PN792

It's correct that if - and we talked in particular about the P400 form where there's a near miss or an actual injury, one of the other options available, if a piece of equipment is reported to a supervisor as being physically broken, is that a matter that is recorded to the supervisor?---My procedure is to report it to the supervisor.

PN793

And the supervisor, there's a process called tagging out, is there, where the piece of equipment is tagged out and is not to be used once it's been tagged out?---There is a procedure, but it hasn't been applied where I work.

PN794

One final question. You gave some evidence earlier about the problem of the bundles of mail shifting in the bags. If that is, as you say, that could be fixed by putting compartments in the bags, could it not?---Well, that was my suggestion. Possibly. I don't know the ramifications or how it might be done, but I'm so pleased to see the luminous tape on the buggy. I don't know when that came in. That was a management decision, I suppose, but I'm not sure when it came in.

PN795

No further questions from me, Commissioner.

PN796

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Fernon?

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FERNON [12.30PM]

PN797

MR FERNON: Mr Hopkins, am I correct in understanding that you have been using the trolley system of delivery mail for about 10 years?---About eight years.

PN798

About eight years?---But I did mention that prior to that on some busy days we would use buggies rather than backpacks.

PN799

All right. So am I to understand that for about a period of eight years you used the trolley on a day to day basis and intermittently for some time before that?
---Yes.

PN800

When you say that you used the trolley for the last eight years on a day to day basis, are we to understand that that's five days per week?---Five days per week.

PN801

And are we to understand that's during a full time shift?---Yes.

PN802

How long is a full time shift?---Full time shift, depending on the mail volumes of the day and other work requirements, might be five hours, could be longer.

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XXN MR FERNON
PN803

So am I to understand that for the last eight years you've been using the trolley five days a week, five plus hours per day, is that correct?---Yes. Four, make it four as a sort of safe - - -

PN804

Make it four what?---Four hours, because there's travel to and from the runs.

PN805

I see. So for five days a week, four plus hours per day during that last eight years, you've been using the trolley in your work, is that correct?---Yes, it is.

PN806

During that four hours, or four plus hours that you mention, am I to understand that you are actually using the trolley?---Actually using the trolley.

PN807

Wheeling the trolley around the streets?---Wheeling it.

PN808

Delivering mail?---Delivering mail.

PN809

And that's walking with the trolley, delivering mail?---Yes.

PN810

Up and down the streets of Marrickville or wherever?---Yes, yes.

PN811

Crossing the streets?---Crossing the streets.

PN812

Crossing from one side to the other to deliver mail on both sides of the street?
---Yes.

PN813

And is it typically the case that when you're crossing the street it's necessary to negotiate a gutter?---Often it is.

PN814

Is it the case that it's most occasions or very few occasions?---Most occasions.

PN815

So most occasions it's necessary to negotiate a gutter to cross the street, but on some occasions, is it the case that you might have a driveway to use or some other ramp on the footpath?---Sometimes, yes.

PN816

So that during that eight years, five days a week, four plus hours a day, you wheel the trolley along the street, cross the street as required for your run, mostly negotiating a gutter?---Yes.

PN817

You were asked by my friend if you're familiar with the P400 reporting of incidents?---Yes.

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XXN MR FERNON
PN818

And I think you indicated that you were?---I am.

PN819

And indeed, it is the case, isn't it, as is demonstrated by the document that you were shown, which is now MFI1, that you have reported incidents at least since 1991 on those P400 forms?---Not that I'm aware.

PN820

Could you have a look at the document which is MFI1, which I think is in front of you?---Sorry. When I say not that I'm aware, the centres that I've worked at, P400s really didn't come into use until more recent years, only serious, what were regarded as life threatening or potentially life threatening, motorcycle accidents and the like.

PN821

When did P400s come in, do you say?---Well, I really - I don't like guessing, but they may have been around but they weren't a familiar item as far as incidents in the work place, until, you know, six or seven years ago, eight years ago.

PN822

And before that there was another mechanism for reporting incidents, is that right?---The only other form I'm aware of is a PNL80, that's the only other form that I'm aware of.

PN823

Was it your practice to report incidents as they affected Health & Safety, as you saw it?---No, no, not necessarily. I left it often up to the - as a Health & Safety representative, I don't have any control over any individual and I - - -

PN824

I'm asking about you, Mr Hopkins, and I'm asking - - -?---In my case.

PN825

Whether it's the case that it was your practice to report incidents that affected you in your work that had to do with risk to Health & Safety?---Yes, that was an independent subjective decision as to whether you completed the documentation or not.

PN826

Yes, and you've been shown the document, MFI1, this morning, haven't you?
---Yes.

PN827

And you have it there in front of you, do you?---Yes, yes.

PN828

I'm asking you now to look at it, please?---Yes.

PN829

Could you look at it?---I have looked at it.

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XXN MR FERNON
PN830

That represents, it has been suggested to you, a record of incidents reported by you in the period to which it refers?---Yes. There's no mention of broken handles that I experienced and there's no mention of the time that I nearly died when the car collected my buggy about six or seven feet away from me, no. A lot of those things weren't included. I wasn't a thorough Health & Safety representative in that regard.

PN831

The first entry on 9 May 1991 on the document is at a time when you were not using a buggy, is that correct?---I'm finding it very difficult to read the print but if you could - what was that incident?

PN832

It's dated 9 May 1991, it's the first entry on the page, the incident description is, hit gate delivering mail, I hit my toe on the gate, middle toe, right foot?---Yes, I remember the - Premier Street, yes, I remember that, yes, that's it.

PN833

And that was an incident that you reported as affecting Health & Safety?
---Because I thought my foot was broken. It was - it seemed like a very serious injury.

PN834

And that was something that you reported?---I had medical treatment for it.

PN835

There were no other reported incidents in the document as has been suggested to you that relates to the trolley?---No, that's what I'm saying, that there are two occasions where I've had broken - if you look at the - - -

PN836

Just deal with my question?---Sorry.

PN837

The fact is that in the MFI1 there is no reported incident of your use of the trolley recorded in the MFI1, you agree with that?---Not recorded. It should have been.

PN838

What do you say should have been recorded?---Well, I've just mentioned to you. Look, there is - - -

PN839

What P400 do you say that you've put in that is not recorded in MFI1?---I can't recall the dates and times. As I say, there was an incident with my buggy that was a car veered across the road and crossed the median strip and ran into my buggy into a wall. Now, there should have been some report of that. There should have been a report from management of the broken handles. There should have been reports of the brake failures.

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XXN MR FERNON
PN840

When do you say the incident with the car occurred?---It's going back to St Peters Delivery Centre which would have possibly been four years ago.

PN841

Some time ago?---Some time ago, four years ago. I'm assuming that's the time span.

PN842

You wouldn't disagree with 1998?---If it's 1998, it could be 1998, yes.

PN843

December 1998?---Yes.

PN844

An incident with a motor vehicle, involving a buggy?---Yes. If that's - I don't know the full description that they've got there.

PN845

How many incidents do you say there are with a motor vehicle and the buggy?
---There have been several actually and - - -

PN846

Is that the truth?---It is the truth.

PN847

That you've reported on a P400?---No, I haven't reported and if you ask me the question why I didn't report - - -

PN848

I didn't ask you that?---No, I know, I know.

PN849

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Hopkins, there's a demarcation here that he gets to ask you the questions?---Right, yes, okay.

PN850

You get to give the answers.

PN851

MR FERNON: The position is, isn't it, that all of the complaints that you make about the trolley could be rectified by maintenance?---I don't believe so.

PN852

You don't profess qualifications as an engineer, do you?---I don't, but I've had it explained to me.

PN853

I'm sorry, what was the last part?---I say I've had the problem explained to me as to why - with the breakings - - -

PN854

Mr Hopkins, I think my question was related to whether or not you had qualifications as an engineer?---No, I don't.

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS XXN MR FERNON
PN855

Is the answer to that, you don't?---No, I don't.

PN856

Thank you.

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CAMERON [12.42PM]

PN857

MR CAMERON: Mr Hopkins, how long ago was it that you moved to a larger delivery centre?---We moved to Waterloo and I think it was 18 months ago, 19 months ago.

PN858

Prior to that you were - - -?---At St Peters Delivery Centre for about four years.

PN859

Then prior to that?---At Marrickville Delivery Centre for whatever time.

PN860

Was that at the back of the post office?---Initially for a year or so, 18 months, and then into a delivery centre in Marrickville.

PN861

Going back to when you were at St Peters, how long ago did you say that was?
---About 20 months ago, I think it was June.

PN862

Could you tell me how many years ago it was that you would have first been given training filling out the P400, incident reports?

PN863

MR FERNON: I object.

PN864

MR CAMERON: Do you want me to repeat the question?---Yes, please.

PN865

THE COMMISSIONER: Only if the witness didn't hear it. I heard it.

PN866

MR FERNON: Yes, I object to the question. It's not arising, Commissioner.

PN867

THE COMMISSIONER: No, it strictly isn't, but I'll allow the question?---In filling P400 forms out?

PN868

MR CAMERON: Yes?---When - I suppose going back to my training as a Health & Safety representative, I'd have to say that.

PN869

THE COMMISSIONER: I should have told you earlier, witness, but I don't want you to guess or suppose. You're on oath. Give evidence about matters that you definitely know of. If you're unable to answer a question, you're unable to answer it?---It would have been when I completed the Health & Safety training.

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS RXN MR CAMERON
PN870

MR CAMERON: When was that, Mr Hopkins?---I'm not sure.

PN871

Is it an involve process to fill out a P400?---Not after you've completed it - not after you put it straight to me, it's regarded as - - -

PN872

What's been experience with filling out P400s in relation to, in general as far as feedback and management?---Well, there has been a reluctance - there was a reluctance to complete them and I'm going back some years now, but there was a tendency not to complete them unless they were, as I say, life threatening.

PN873

Why do you think it is the case that you wouldn't bother filling out a P400 with regards to a buggy?---The reason is that I commenced work in an environment where those sort of issues, problems with the buggy or what were seen as day to day issues that - you could - you know, you could - in time they'd be resolved and you lived in that culture of not creating paperwork and not getting - there was no structure in the sense of where it was all leading anyway. It was a hope that the management would get things done as quickly as possible.

PN874

That concludes my re-examination.

<FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FERNON [12.47PM]

PN875

MR FERNON: Can I just ask one further question which might arise. You mentioned some training in relation to P400 documents. In response to a question you indicated that you thought it might have been when you had Health & Safety training and then you indicated that you weren't sure when that was. Is that repeating your evidence accurately?---No. The point I'm making is that you became a Health & Safety representative on election. You didn't necessarily receive Health & Safety training in those days immediately and it could have been - and I can't recall whether it was years later or how often the training occurred, but more or less you took it on your own bat to try and fulfil the role without having that background. You looked - - -

PN876

Did you receive Health & Safety training?---I did.

PN877

And roughly how long ago did you first receive it?---I don't know and I'll qualify that by saying that in November last year, Australia Post put out a document - - -

PN878

I'm not asking for - - -?---But it leads back to the point, the question I'm - - -

**** RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS FXXN MR FERNON
PN879

All right, if it answers the question?---It does, that there were a dozen people nominated for recognition in terms of long serving Health & Safety representatives. I phoned up to see - I was on holidays after that. I phoned up to see what was happening with that award or recognition and at the same time I asked the person I Health & Safety, senior person, when I became a Health & Safety representative. They couldn't find that information out. They said it wasn't available and, you know, they suggested that I look elsewhere.

PN880

Was it your view in November last year that you had been a Health & Safety representative for some years?---It was, yes.

PN881

And indeed, some years extending beyond the year 2000, extending back into the 1900s?---Yes, yes.

PN882

THE COMMISSIONER: Not exactly the 1900s?---Yes, the 20th century.

PN883

Perhaps the 1990s.

PN884

MR FERNON: Thank you. The 1900s include 1990, but anyway, we're talking about before the year 2000?---Yes.

PN885

Thank you.

PN886

THE COMMISSIONER: You may step down?---But, Commissioner, the documentation - - -

PN887

You can just leave it there. My associate will deal with it. Just hand it to my associate, Mr Hopkins.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.50PM]

PN888

THE COMMISSIONER: We're going to adjourn very shortly but I just want to ask a question of Mr Cameron. Mr Cameron, your next witness will be?

PN889

MR CAMERON: Mr Larry Simons, he is present waiting outside.

PN890

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, he'll have to wait a little longer. We're adjourned till 2 pm.

<LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.51PM]
<RESUMED [2.09PM]

PN891

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Cameron?

PN892

MR CAMERON: Commissioner, my next witness is Mr Larry Simons. Because we're sort of running later than what we thought we would have been today, he's got a personal issue that's come about today that, if you give permission, he'd like to leave at 3 pm. I have asked the other parties and they're agreeable.

PN893

THE COMMISSIONER: Right. So do you still intend to call Mr Simons?

PN894

MR CAMERON: Just open to your suggestion, if it's worthwhile calling him for 50 minutes, I'm okay to do that, but - - -

PN895

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, if he's here.

PN896

MR CAMERON: He's here, yes.

PN897

THE COMMISSIONER: We might as well use it, see how we go. Call Mr Simons.

<LAWRENCE ARTHUR SIMONS, AFFIRMED [2.11PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR CAMERON

PN898

MR CAMERON: Commissioner, I have a copy of the transcript from the DVD that we will be showing here today. I'd like to - - -

PN899

MR FERNON: Commissioner, could I rise to make the same objection that I made in respect of the other evidence, and that is that the evidence of Mr Simons should be concerned with the complaint in the PIN rather than a broad ranging evidence. That's the first thing, and the second thing is that the evidence, as we understand it, is based upon Mr Simons qualifications as an engineer. We would object to his comments or any evidence about matters of safety as distinct from matters of engineering.

PN900

THE COMMISSIONER: No, I won't allow your objection. I'll hear Mr Simons' evidence.

PN901

MR FERNON: Thank you, Commissioner.

PN902

THE COMMISSIONER: What weight I give it is up to me.

PN903

MR CAMERON: Mr Simons, you're an authorised repair contractor with Australia Post?---Yes.

PN904

How long have you held that position, Mr Simons?---Just on four years.

PN905

And I understand that your work involves the repair of buggies as well as push bikes?---Yes, that's correct.

PN906

Has your work extended over many delivery centres?---Yes. Probably about, including Post Offices, about 12 that I currently work over, yes.

PN907

That's in the metropolitan area?---Yes.

PN908

Do you consider that your experience with Australia Post to speak with sufficient background on the maintenance and structural workings of the buggy - - -

PN909

MR FERNON: I object to that. We'd like to know what the experience is rather than - - -

PN910

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Perhaps you can rephrase your question, Mr Cameron.

**** LAWRENCE ARTHUR SIMONS XN MR CAMERON
PN911

MR CAMERON: Could you inform us of your experience which led to your engagement with Australia Post?---Up to the present time I've had 42 years in precision engineering, fitting and machining, gear manufacturing and motor engineering.

PN912

And currently, apart from being the repair contractor for Australia Post buggies?
---Sorry?

PN913

Apart from - currently you work as a repair contractor for Australia Post buggies?
---Yes.

PN914

Are you under current employment from anybody else?---Yes. I do work for the State Rail or rather RailCorp.

PN915

What type of work do you do there?---I drive country passenger trains which I actually took on as a hobby some 20 years ago.

PN916

Do you do anything else at State Rail?---Yes. I modified part of their brake system for them back in 1998. I make parts for them still. That's as far as the work goes for State Rail or RailCorp, yes.

PN917

And that's the trains we see going round the tracks?---The inter city trains, yes.

PN918

Thank you?---Not the normal suburban, that is. Not the suburban trains, but the inter city, yes.

PN919

Could you give us some more information on what other experience you've had?
---I've worked with the CSIRO.

PN920

What did that work consist of?---That was making parts for kidney scan machines. I've also done work for Honda. That was re-machining of incorrectly machined parts.

PN921

Thank you. I'll come back to that question that the objection was about. You have had sufficient background on the maintenance and structural workings of the buggy in question?---Yes.

PN922

In light of your extensive experience in repairing buggies throughout the metropolitan areas over many years, could you comment on the types and frequencies of the maintenance issues associated with the buggies?---Yes. The biggest problem is with the brake on them which constantly fails due to the design errors in it or faults and it's generally caused by the cable fracturing and breaking.

**** LAWRENCE ARTHUR SIMONS XN MR CAMERON
PN923

And the frequency of the maintenance issues associated with the buggies?---It varies a little, but sometimes it may only be a few weeks and the brake problems reoccur. Just depends.

PN924

Why does it reoccur, Mr Simons?---Because it uses a cable to push a pin in to a front axel rotor which is the actual brake on the front wheels and cables aren't meant to push. They're meant to be tensioned. They're not a compress - what do you call it - just not meant to be under compression because cables are always meant to be a tension.

PN925

Look, I understand that from interviewing you on the DVD and we might be able to explain that when we go through the DVD, that particular issue. The supply of spare parts, are they available immediately?---We have had a lot of problems with the parts from some Post Offices and depots, but at other times the parts seem to come through reasonably well, you know. That's at Waterloo. I think from the time of ordering sometimes those particular parts may have come through within three or four weeks. Whereas at other times from Botany, I think one time there they were ordered for about 12 to 15 months and they never actually did appear.

PN926

So what would you do in that case?---You tend to cannibalise other buggies to remove parts from those ones to use, but you're really not doing the right thing because those parts are actually worn and so therefore these problems with the brakes will come up much more quickly than - - -

PN927

Can you give me some more specifics - you've mentioned the brakes - in relation not the handles on the - are they a problem as far as you're concerned?---The handles, yes. They fracture, at the end of the cast lug that they're pressed into. That's from both lifting from the rear of the buggy and pushing down on the handle to lift the front of the buggy which flexes the aluminium tube which eventually causes fatigue resulting in the handle breaking off right at the end of the cast aluminium lug.

PN928

How many breakages in handles would you have seen in - - -?---Probably about 20 out of the depots concerned.

PN929

So far about how many years?---Over about two years, I've been doing the buggies, yes.

PN930

Are you aware of postal delivery officers using faulty equipment on their buggies because of lack of spare parts?---Yes. A lot of them were complaining. They'd leave notes complaining that the brakes weren't working, but because the parts weren't available, or we couldn't cannibalise a reasonable sort of buggy to get those parts, therefore it would have to be left as it was.

**** LAWRENCE ARTHUR SIMONS XN MR CAMERON
PN931

Just one question before we go to the DVD, before we consider those comments on the video, could you tell us what you would consider to be the most frequent repair problems and how long those repairs take?---The brake cable would be the most common fault. To actually repair a cable, depending on what sort of damage, other than the actual brake, may have been done to it, probably between 20 minutes to maybe an hour because some of the cables have been badly kinked. That's as a result of the handles being swung over into a collapsed position.

PN932

Commissioner, can we put the DVD on?

PN933

THE COMMISSIONER: I suppose so.

PN934

MR CAMERON: Commissioner, while the DVD is playing is it okay to stop and pause it at a certain point to get more clarity from it?

PN935

THE COMMISSIONER: It is, yes.

PN936

DVD SHOWN

PN937

MR CAMERON: Just one little part that was cut out there. You were about to say how often that will engage?---Yes. It's probably a one in three or one in four chance that the engaging pin, going into the slot, in a rotor, so about a 25 to 33 per cent of the brake engaging without rocking or moving the buggy backwards and forwards.

PN938

And it's that pin going into the slot that's the brake?---That's the brake, yes.

PN939

DVD SHOWN

PN940

MS BERNASCONI: Could I ask that the DVD be stopped there because the rest is evidence of Mr Cameron.

PN941

THE COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry, the DVD rolls into the evidence that Mr Cameron was going to - - -

PN942

MS BERNASCONI: Mr Cameron gives evidence about a situation, a re-enactment of a situation.

PN943

THE COMMISSIONER: Fair enough.

**** LAWRENCE ARTHUR SIMONS XN MR CAMERON
PN944

MR CAMERON: Just a couple of concluding questions. If the handles break so often, Larry, why are they made of aluminium?---I don't quite understand why they should break so often but I think maybe it's related to over loading, maybe past what the original design was meant to carry but it's obvious that the combined movement of pushing down on the handle to lift the front wheels and then lifting the handle at the rear to lift the rear wheels is flexing the aluminium to cause it metal fatigue, to break off the cast.

PN945

Would it last longer if it was made of steel?---Only if it was heavy enough, heavy enough wall thickness tube, yes. But I mean, the same could still be done with the aluminium by using a heavier wall tubing. You know, it seems like it's either an over loading problem or else a design fault that we've never really been allowed to carrying such a large load perhaps.

PN946

Having just watched the video, would you briefly outline the ways in which the buggy could be modified to overcome the shortcomings that you have identified, both structural and maintenance, to provide a safe piece of equipment?---Yes. Well if the brake acted on the rear wheels it would be much more effective because there is more load distributed on to the rear wheels, the great percentage of the load, and also you wouldn't have this problem with the front wheels trying to turn in different directions when the buggy is lifted on to them and then turning. Of course, the front wheels would be independent of each other as far as rotation goes. They could be mounted on bearings free on the axle to rotate.

PN947

What about the bearings on the front wheels as far as the steering goes? What causes that - just one last question - what causes the steering to act like a bag, shopping trolley in a supermarket?---The steering itself as in - - -

PN948

Well, there are a lot of buggies out there that you push and they don't go in a straight line, that sort of thing?---They tend to roll in a curve. I think that occurs probably when the buggies maybe bump into something because the front suspension is only clamped on to the buggy frame and there is a limited amount of movement that you can actually pivot that section through, but it's actually bolted solid, but it's not solid. So if there's a bit of pressure put on the front wheels pushing to the left or the right it will actually move, and once they move, it then turns in a slight arc.

PN949

Is it possible to improve the suspension?---Yes, I'd say so.

**** LAWRENCE ARTHUR SIMONS XN MR CAMERON
PN950

That concludes my questioning of Mr Simons.

PN951

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Simons, something that seems to be emerging from Mr Cameron's questions to you that intrigues me. How much of the problems with the buggies, in your professional view, result from design faults or manufacturing faults and how much results from misuse of them? You've mentioned so far about using the brake lever?---Yes.

PN952

Running into things, unintentionally no doubt, over loading, that sort of thing?
---Yes. Well, I'd say it's probably - - -

PN953

I mean, is it the buggy's fault?---Well, yes, it does have some design shortcomings. I can't understand why they used a rotor on the front brake with such large, like, t-sections. They could have used what is known as an invalided gear which would have a much narrower top on the t, so therefore the brake would engage much more easily. Yes, and I think that the brake should have been attached to one of the rear wheels, one or both, because when the buggy is parked on a slight uphill grade facing uphill, that is, it will roll away even though the brake is on, there's just not enough load on those front wheels. The load is transferred more over the rear wheels, so it will actually skid the front wheels and slide backwards. But there is a bit of a problem with probably how they're used as well. But I don't know to what extent.

PN954

So does some of the problem lie - some of the solution lie in educating people how to use them properly?---Yes, probably, but I think most of it is in the design, a greater percentage including the design.

PN955

Thank you. Yes, Ms Bernasconi? Sorry, Mr Cameron?

PN956

MR CAMERON: Just reminding you of 3 o'clock.

PN957

THE COMMISSIONER: I'm well aware of it. I'm just trying to - the answer may be no questions, so we'll see then.

PN958

MS BERNASCONI: I have no questions, Commissioner.

PN959

THE COMMISSIONER: That was the answer. Mr Fernon?

PN960

MR FERNON: I'll be short.

**** LAWRENCE ARTHUR SIMONS XN MR CAMERON
PN961

THE COMMISSIONER: If you could be as brief as possible.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FERNON [2.57PM]

PN962

MR FERNON: Mr Simons, it is the case, isn't it, that the difficulties that you have identified are difficulties that can be rectified by maintenance?---Well, not really, not maintenance as far as engagement of brake goes.

PN963

Well, let's deal with that. You identified a problem with engaging the brake, didn't you?---Yes.

PN964

And the problem that you identified was that a kink, you get a kink in the brake cable?---Brake cable, yes.

PN965

When a kink occurs in the brake cable, the brake cable can be repaired, can it not?---Yes, yes.

PN966

And once the brake cable is repaired, you have a brake cable on a trolley without a kink, don't you?---That's right.

PN967

And you would say, I suppose, that over time from continue use another kink in the cable may re-emerge?---Well, almost as soon as it's used again.

PN968

Well, was that - - -?---That's been my experience.

PN969

Was that right, almost as soon as it's used again?---Yes.

PN970

That's not what you said before, is it?---The cable will still operate for some time until the strands of the cable start to fracture and there's about a dozen strands in the cable and it may take, you know, a period of time, a few weeks to a couple of months, depending on how much pressure has been put on the brake lever every time the pin does not engage in the rotor spot.

PN971

So the position is that the way in which the cable will deteriorate on your view will be dependent upon the way in which it is used?---Yes, that's right.

PN972

Now, you mentioned that there are slots around the rotor?---Yes.

PN973

During the course of the DVD?---Yes.

**** LAWRENCE ARTHUR SIMONS XXN MR FERNON
PN974

And as I understand it, your evidence was indicating that in applying the brake, because of the way in which the slots appear on the rotor, it might be necessary to rock or move the trolley for the brake to engage?---Yes, yes.

PN975

That movement would be of the order of one inch?---Yes, something like that, yes, an inch backwards and an inch forwards.

PN976

It would be a gross over-exaggeration, would it not, to suggest that that process would take five to 10 seconds?---I don't know. I couldn't say exactly because, you know, it just depends where you are and, you know, I don't know whether this has ever been passed on to the Post Offices.

PN977

Well, I'm suggesting to you that what is involved is a movement or a rocking of the trolley to move it something in the order of up to one inch in order to engage the brake?---Yes.

PN978

It would be, I'd suggest, a gross over-exaggeration to say that that process would take five or 10 seconds?---Yes, but what it also depends on is whether or not the cable has been - - -

PN979

MR CAMERON: Can I object to that? Mr Simons is not a Postal Delivery Officer. He's actually not been out to deliver the mail that's loaded with 40, 50 kilos of mail and is not in a position to know.

PN980

THE COMMISSIONER: I thought you'd asked him questions based on the premise that the buggy would be loaded with significant amounts of mail, at one stage.

PN981

MR FERNON: I'm sorry?

PN982

THE COMMISSIONER: No, I'm just talking to Mr Cameron, actually. I should have spoken more loudly. I do not uphold your objection, so proceed.

PN983

MR FERNON: Was there anything more that you wanted to say in relation to your answer to my question?---No, no.

PN984

Yes. I've got no more questions, thank you?---That's reasonable.

PN985

THE COMMISSIONER: Any re-examination?

**** LAWRENCE ARTHUR SIMONS XXN MR FERNON
PN986

MR CAMERON: Just one more question.

PN987

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I'm in your hands now in relation to time, Mr Cameron.

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CAMERON [3.02PM]

PN988

MR CAMERON: Just concluding, Mr Simons, pushing a loaded buggy, I don't know if you have had experience in pushing a loaded buggy, have you?---No, I haven't, no.

PN989

To push an empty buggy on a - you've obviously pushed an empty buggy?---Yes.

PN990

And going up a slight slope or going down a slight slope, do you think that that could be done in a matter of seconds, and this is an empty buggy we're talking about, to get that - - -?---Well, yes, it's fairly easy to do it with an empty buggy and when the cable's not kinked, but once the cable's been kinked, the cable - the inner cable doesn't slide through the outer cable as easily as it should and also the pin doesn't engage to the same depth that it should. It probably only engages to about maybe - I don't know, two-thirds of the depth it should. So when you actually fire the brake, the pin may not be far enough down to actually lock. Because of the radius on the top of the tooth, it may actually push it back out.

PN991

If you were to have a buggy loaded with 40 kilos of mail, the effort required to pull back, if you're going on a slight slope or a slight incline, the effort required on your physical body with one hand to push the lever and to pull it back?---Yes.

PN992

Would you say that that would be quite an effort physically?---Probably. I really can't say but you know, naturally, just some of the inclines on footpaths and things are reasonably heavy grade, so it would probably, you know, take a bit of effort and time.

PN993

That concludes my questions.

PN994

THE COMMISSIONER: Anything arising? You're excused, Mr Simons, with our thanks.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [3.04PM]

PN995

THE COMMISSIONER: Our programming, very briefly, I take it we'll continue tomorrow with the evidence of Mr Robertson, is that correct?

PN996

MR CAMERON: We will, Commissioner. I also intend to bring the green buggy in.

PN997

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. You foreshadowed that earlier and that's welcome, of course. We're adjourned till 10 am tomorrow morning.

<ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY 22 FEBRUARY 2006 [3.05PM]

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS, SWORN PN594
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR CAMERON PN594
EXHIBIT #CAMERON3 STATEMENT OF RODNEY GRAHAM HOPKINS PN644
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BERNASCONI PN736
MFI #BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS PN759
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FERNON PN796
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CAMERON PN856
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FERNON PN874
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN887
LAWRENCE ARTHUR SIMONS, AFFIRMED PN897
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR CAMERON PN897
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FERNON PN961
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CAMERON PN987
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN994