C2006/2525, Transcript of Proceedings [2006] AIRCTrans 914 (28 July 2006)

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

---

Workplace Relations Act 1996 15395-1

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT LACY

C2006/2525

AUTOMOTIVE, FOOD, METALS, ENGINEERING, PRINTING AND KINDRED INDUSTRIES UNION
AND
ALCOA OF AUSTRALIA LIMITED T/AS ALCOA WORLD ALUMINA
s.170LW pre-reform Act - Appl’n for settlement of dispute (certified agreement)
(C2006/2525)

MELBOURNE

10.01AM, THURSDAY, 13 JULY 2006

Continued from 12/7/2006

PN1068

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Any change in appearances?

PN1069

MR HALE: Your Honour, also appearing with me today, is MR B WHELAN

PN1070

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Yes, Mr Ogilvie?

PN1071

MR OGILVIE: Thank you your Honour, we will proceed to our next witness who is Mr Bob Holland.

<ROBERT HOLLAND, SWORN [10.01AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR OGILVIE

PN1072

MR OGILVIE: Mr Holland, have you prepared a witness statement for the purposes of the proceedings today?---Yes, I have.

PN1073

Have you had a chance to read through it recently to go through it again?---Yes I have.

PN1074

Is that statement true and correct?---There is just one little typo, in point 2.

PN1075

Paragraph 2?---Yes, where it says between 1989 and 1999, that it's actually 1992.

PN1076

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, which one is the 1992, the 1999, should be 1992?---No, sorry your Honour, it's 1989, should be 1992.

PN1077

Yes, all right.

PN1078

MR OGILVIE: So it should read between 1992 and 1999 I was?---Yes.

PN1079

I seek to tender that statement your Honour.

EXHIBIT #ALCOA2 STATEMENT OF ROBERT HOLLAND

PN1080

MR OGILVIE: You say in your witness statement that your responsibilities in your current role include looking after maintenance delivery and all workshops fleet and plant maintenance. On a day to day basis, what does it actually involve you doing?---It's basically just making sure that the direction and the strategies that have been put in place under reliability excellence are being met.

PN1081

How do you do that? What do you do, sort of?---Physically we've got a number of forums where we sit with the crews, we sit with the supervisors. There's production meetings, there's maintenance planning meetings to attend.

PN1082

At the time that the SIP agreements were introduced, what was your role then?
---The SIP agreements it depends in generally speaking, I was a senior steward for the AMWU. I was a member of the steering committee for the maintenance, the whole maintenance department, plant site as a senior steward and I think probably towards 1993, late 1992 when Norm Grant resigned from the senior steward's position that I was elected in. I then took over on the plants steering committee from probably late 92.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XN MR OGILVIE
PN1083

What was the role of the steering committee?---The steering committee was basically to really have an overlook at really what the structures and some of the strategies were for the different work groups that were out in the process of restructuring. They set really what the boundaries were and what some of the framework was that you could redesign your workplace in or to. You would then, as a restructuring group, and maintenance had a number of them, they would bring back their new design to the steering committee to be ratified.

PN1084

That new design, what form that did new design take?---Part of it was the SIP agreement, part of it was the hours of work and how we did our business with our customers, a whole realm of different aspects of a macro redesign.

PN1085

With the SIP agreements how were they developed within each of the groups?
---Yes, well each of the groups did their's separately the ingot mill was really the first lead in to the statement and income plan. Then the different maintenance teams within their own department sat down and started working through what their SIP arrangement would look like within each department or each team.

PN1086

Who drafted them up, in the groups?---That would come back to the steering committee to be ratified. Really there was always a framework of what it had to sort of look like, in other words, you couldn't go and change the world, it still had you were still covered by your award and your EBA. So framework was there, it was really just how about we going to do our business.

PN1087

How were the documents finalised? How were they sort of finished off? Did they need approval or?---Yes, the SIP agreements generally went back to the steering committee and or senior management to be – if the steering committee were happy that it met with inside the guidelines or the framework of really what the macro redesign was about, that would then go to senior management to be approved.

PN1088

Who made up the steering committee? What was it's composition?---The maintenance steering committee or the plant?

PN1089

The plant?---The plant steering committee back in the early 90s was the senior managers from manufacturing and maintenance manager and the senior stewards from across the three unions that were represented on site. So the AMWU, the AWU and the ETU senior stewards yes, and some HR representatives there as well.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XN MR OGILVIE
PN1090

In your view, why wasn't any detail about public holiday weeks to be worked included in the SIP agreements?---The hours of it or why what?

PN1091

There's been some evidence that the SIP agreements don't contain any of anything that deals with the working of the hours on the public holiday weeks, why isn't that detailed?---Well my understanding of it is that we always had an eight hour day and the public holiday was an eight hour day and when a public holiday week came about, we worked a 32 hour week. Not to any of my recollection during any of the SIP agreements that we spoke about changing that framework around how we did our work, whether it was a 30 hour week or a 32, or whatever it may have been, my understanding of it all that that was part of the framework that was not to be touched, that was already in place, it was more about how we go about our business.

PN1092

Why wasn't that put into the SIP agreements?---As in written in?

PN1093

Yes?---Yes, good question, I suppose going right back to when I think the first one was written which was Ingot Mill, and I know Steve, Mr Lange was down at Ingot Mill at the time. It was thought at the time though they wanted to try and keep that document pretty simple, you know they didn't want a document that was that prescriptive, that we would be forever going back and trying to get interpretation on it. We had our EBA agreement and our award that underpinned that. When you really have a look at how this frame worked out, it was really - a lot of it talked about the overtime component that was in there and there was a lot of unknowns about whether or not we would have to work those flexible hours and those additional hours if we had to work it. A lot of it was around that. Obviously from the rank and file members, there were questions around, what does that mean for my sick leave. The sick leave was written in there as well and most of the rest of it was all covered within the award, or the EBA. So it wasn't a document that was - it was just a document that was kept pretty simple and succinct to be able to be looked at from all levels to be able to really talk about really what all the questions were back in those days because what you've got to remember, we were coming out of a pretty rigid structure into a macro redesign and into a new way about how we did our business. Really the SIP agreements were just around, the SIP documents were written, were what are the questions being asked and let's try and answer them in there.

PN1094

There was some evidence from Mr Lange yesterday about Alcoa being a benchmark in the mid-1990s in relation to maintenance?---Yes, that's right.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XN MR OGILVIE
PN1095

What was it about Alcoa that made it a benchmark?---In 96?

PN1096

Yes?---Yes, well it was more about because we come from a macro redesign, and we were probably one of the first organizations around, particularly a multi national that went to an annualised pay arrangement and how we went about you know, we didn't have clock cards any more, and a lot of things there was a lot more autonomy within our crews. How we went about our business, how – we introduced area based tradesman or equip managers as they call them now. That was new in the industry, where guys actually looked after budgets, got involved in pure issues, got involved in a lot of issues that traditionally was not traditionally a trade role, that was pretty unique in the industry at the time, and we had a lot of industry would come in once or twice a week and generally want to talk to a group and it was normally tradesman. It wasn't about – we weren't benchmark in the way of costs. We weren't benchmarking in how many people we had repairing equipment, we were benchmarking in doing our business really different in the industry. That's what we were benchmarked in.

PN1097

Is it still the case now?---No, probably not, not within the Alcoa system anyway, that I know of. I don't know about general industry, I don't work in it. But I know in the Alcoa system, no we're not, we're one of the most expensive smelters within the system to get our maintenance done, we are improving.

PN1098

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: One of the most expensive what?---One of the most expensive smelters, your Honour in the Alcoa system that we get measured against.

PN1099

Is that because of work practices or because of machinery?---Yes, a whole host of things in there. How we measure maintenance generally, cents per pound in the American measurement, I think we were – well we were when we started the reliability excellence program we were about the third most expensive plant within the Alcoa system to be able to deliver maintenance. That's for a whole host of reasons, not tool time, or all that sort of stuff, that's part of it, but a lot of it is around our processes on how we deliver our maintenance, we don't kiln it, maintenance how we actually get on the job. Just a whole host of things. We went back under reliability excellence and went back and looked at our practices and our processes to deliver maintenance.

PN1100

MR OGILVIE: You recall that at the start of the year a proposal was put forward by the AMWU, it was being called a compromise to work two 10s or one 12 or a similar pattern during public holiday weeks, do you remember that?---Yes, I do.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XN MR OGILVIE
PN1101

Why, if you compare that to what Alcoa is seeking which is four eight hour days in a public holiday week, why is that proposal not acceptable?---Look it is really about how we level our maintenance activity across the period of time, and not trying to complete our maintenance activities in a condensed timeframe. So it's about trying to level the maintenance out over four days and not trying to condense our 32 hour week over a three day period. That has a lot of impacts on the manufacturing areas, in the sense of trying to get the equipment at the right time at the right place, particularly in electrode. It's about having only having all of our people here for two days of the week. It is hard enough four days a week in a normal week, to cover public holiday week we've got to condense that down to two days a week when we've got them all here. So it's a real big peak, so it's more about trying to level out your maintenance across a four day period.

PN1102

One last question. Mr Lange gave some evidence and I think in paragraph 14 of your witness statement as well, if you could just turn to that. I think he didn't understand, he was unclear what you actually meant. Could you just clarify what you were trying to describe. Just have a read of it and clarify what you are trying to describe, have you got that paragraph?---Yes, that was in the late 90s it was coming towards the end of my time as an equipment manager in the pot rooms and we had people that were coming into the team, that was pretty established in there for a long time, they'd been area based tradesman for many, many years. The arrangement when we sat down and negotiated our SIP arrangement was around eight hour days and there was a lot of people coming in from other teams that were doing 10 hour days. To the best of my knowledge, and I had never seen it before, where well we all – those individuals flexed back to an eight hour day during the public holiday week. I was already on eight hour days and Mr Lange who asked the question, or the question was asking about that, he was on eight hour days. For us it was the norm, but for individuals that were new into the team, they flexed back to the eight day in the public holiday week, so you worked four eight hour days. I'd never seen it any different in the pot rooms.

PN1103

I've no further questions, your Honour.

PN1104

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you Mr Ogilvie. Just before you start Mr Hale.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XN MR OGILVIE
PN1105

You said before that the real issue is how we level out around maintenance activity and you know it's hard enough on having three days of a full crew with the four 10 hour days, what's the advantage of having full crews? How do you actually optimise or maximise your maintenance with full crews, as compared with when you only have half crew?---It's a good question. We are a seven day a week plant, and most weeks, apart from the public holiday, we only have our people there for four days a week, a Monday and a Friday are traditionally the two days that we are down to 50 per cent of our crews are on and 50 per cent of our crews are off. So we don't plan a lot of work and we normally only plan the end type of work that we know will get completed. We don't want to pull equipment down and not be able to get it back, due to not having the numbers and not planning it right. So that leaves us Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday of most weeks, if not all weeks apart from a public holiday that weekend actually do our maintenance particularly in the production areas. Electrode is a production line, it's a little bit different in the pot rooms, there's actually a production line. So when you stop one machine you stop the whole production line. So Tuesday and Wednesday that production area shuts down and the maintenance teams go in and they could have anywhere from six, eight, 10 jobs in there over a two day period, they could have to as many as 20 jobs. Then on the Thursday that gives us an opportunity to get into the pot rooms, which is another production area from the rest of the plant, to try and meet the requirements around repairing work. In the public holiday week condensing that down to a three day week means one of those areas, we really can't put all of our labour into those areas, because we are only going to have 50 per cent of them there on a Tuesday or 50 per cent of them here on a Thursday. So one of those areas will suffer in the way of being able to meet their requirements over that two day period.

PN1106

When you've got full crews, is it the normal practice that you would plan or program the job that would be completed in one day? Or would it take the three days to do it?---There are a number of jobs that we do have double down days in electrode where they are shut down for two days, an afternoon shift in the middle and even possibly some night shift work over that period of time. We just had one that was started Monday night and it will be finished today sometime, so yes, there are some big jobs. But in the main they're jobs around the eight hours.

PN1107

Is that reactive maintenance you are talking about?---No, that's plant and maintenance, yes that's plant.

PN1108

All right, thanks. Anything arising out of that Mr Ogilvie, before you finish?

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XN MR OGILVIE
PN1109

MR OGILVIE: No, your Honour.

PN1110

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No. Yes Mr Hale.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HALE [10.19AM]

PN1111

MR HALE: Just before we go away from that. How many times would you have work that would go over two days so that you would be required for the three days?---In electrode?

PN1112

Anywhere?---Yes, we'd have a number of jobs in the backlog to my knowledge at the moment, in the 20, 23 week backlog just off the top of my head, I think there's five really big jobs in there that are going to take a number of days. Some P and F work, changing P and F conveyors, some actual elevator work that needs to be done, there's some really big jobs in there, stripping press jobs.

PN1113

How many employees would you need for those jobs?---Depends which job you are talking about, it can range from six to 12.

PN1114

So we take the elevators, we'll deal with a specific example. How many people would you need working – and when I say people, metal maintenance people would you need working on that elevator job for how many days, would you know?---No, I don't. I know it will be a big job because it's an elevator, that we've got to rebuild, but the enth detail of how many tradespeople we'll want over time, that detail no.

PN1115

But you would know it would go more than three days?---It may well go over three days.

PN1116

May well, or you would know?---Well it may well, it depends on how they structure the shifts whether we have a night shift, afternoon shift and a day shift range, it just depends on how the planning department and the scheduler can schedule then into the production needs, yes.

PN1117

Okay if I can just take you to paragraph 14 of your statement that Mr Ogilvie took you to before?---Yes.

PN1118

The last sentence of that paragraph 14 said, "No one had a leisure day in a public holiday week"?---Yes, that's right.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XXN MR HALE
PN1119

Were the people on five 8s getting leisure days?---No from Monday to Friday, my example I use, is myself, was I work Monday to Friday seven to three or eight to four, five days a week.

PN1120

Yes, where would you get a leisure day from? What was the leisure day?---If I needed it – well a leisure day in my terminology was there, there day off, or a day off, so if you work 10s and you are off on a Friday, that was a leisure day off.

PN1121

So what you are then saying is that in that week no one - that everyone had to work four days plus the public holiday?---No.

PN1122

Well what are you saying?---Well which week are you talking about?

PN1123

Any week in which a public holiday falls?---A public holiday week we would have the public holiday off.

PN1124

Yes?---And we would work four 8s.

PN1125

So there were never any other combinations?---There was if you wanted some flexibility around having a leisure day off. Any week of the year you could, I would sit down wit the supervisor and the planner in the area and if it suited the business needs of course, we would work it around and if it was possible, I could get a leisure day off.

PN1126

But not in a public holiday week?---It could happen in a public holiday week, it could happen in any week.

PN1127

So how is that consistent with no one had a leisure day in a public holiday week?
---That statement is that people that work four 10s in our team, so they work a roster say from a Monday to Thursday four 10 hour days, if a public holiday fell on a Monday they would have the public holiday off, and then they would work Tuesday, the Friday four eight hour days.

PN1128

That isn't what you just told me two minutes ago?---I'm pretty sure, I did.

PN1129

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You were asked before whether there are any other arrangements apart from the four, five eight days and then you were asked about circumstances where there was a public holiday week and you said you could get a leisure day in a public holiday week by arrangement if you sat down with the supervisor and worked it out with the supervisor?---I'm sorry I didn't understand your question then.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XXN MR HALE
PN1130

MR HALE: What I was asking was, how is that consistent with no one had a leisure day in a public holiday week?---The way I – I suppose the context of how I was trying to explain that was out of the norm, no one in my team that works five 8s in the norm, had a leisure day off. You could go and get a leisure day off but in the norm it wasn't worked out of five 8s. In a public holiday week, the norm was we had a public holiday and then we would observe our four 8s that was the norm and that is the context of what this is trying to say.

PN1131

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: By special arrangement an individual could get?---Correct, your Honour.

PN1132

MR HALE: So what you really mean there is, providing the employee went and asked the supervisor, then they could be granted a leisure day during the public holiday week?---Yes, they could be.

PN1133

But it wouldn't be part of their roster, is that what you are saying?---It would be – it would have to meet the business needs and of course the individuals needs and if that was possible, that would be observed yes.

PN1134

In your role as the senior delegate and sitting on the steering committee for the site, did you have any involvement in relation to the agreement for the roster at the garage?---The roster at the garage, no I think that was – the roster at the garage, my understanding I think that was pretty well one of the first in maintenance to go and that would have come through the maintenance steering committee would have ratified that, and it would have been just rubber stamped at the plant level.

PN1135

Didn't you give evidence that there were certain boundaries that the company's position was that they insisted that those boundaries to redesign restricted what the autonomous work groups could come up with?---Yes, that's correct.

PN1136

So was there any widening of those boundaries for the garage?---The garage work a completely different roster to most of the maintenance teams. They work weekends, so they are rostered on weekends and they've now got call ins on public holidays. Out of hours they get called in so they have got a different working arrangement than most teams that I'm aware of. They are one of unique teams within maintenance that actually work rostered on weekends, apart from our shifty's again get called in on public holidays and again can be called in on out of hours at midnight. We had a number of them were called in on Christmas day a couple of years ago, so they are a little bit different, a little bit unique.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XXN MR HALE
PN1137

Okay but what we are really dealing with you as a member of that steering committee, I think you said that there's as rubber stamped, was that a standard practice that where you were exceeding the boundaries that had been set down by the company that it would be just be rubber stamped?---I don't understand the question how they were exceeding the boundaries?

PN1138

Well there's been evidence and you might want to contest that that the roster at the garage provided for three 10 hour days to be worked, and it was part of a formal structured negotiation and agreement and that provided that during a public holiday week, that they would work three 10 hour days. Now you have told us in your evidence that that exceeded the boundaries. The company had laid down strict boundaries as to what could or couldn't be exceeded and yet you are telling me that their agreement was simply rubber stamped?---I hadn't said their work arrangements was outside of their boundaries. I hadn't said that in my testimony at all.

PN1139

Didn't you say that the working of three 10 hour days, during the public holiday week was strictly outside the boundaries set down by the company when you were looking approving the SIP agreements?---Yes, reflected the general maintenance teams, but I didn't say that for the garage. Like I said before the garage who've got a unique different framework that they work in because they actually work a different roster than anybody else on plant site to cover the needs of the work management.

PN1140

So what you are saying is that it was only general maintenance that was covered by those boundaries?---No, it was all maintenance but that - - -

PN1141

Except the garage?---That's what I said to you I haven't said what the boundaries were. The boundaries were a little bit different for each team regardless of or included what the customers wanted. So the customers for each team are a little bit different. The workshops are different to what the field guys customers were because they went out into the manufacturing areas where they were shut down, so they had certain boundaries around, you know, how quickly they could get to a job, how they respond to breakdowns, how they respond to short lead work. Workshops are a little bit different. Mostly their work was totally planned and came into the workshop, so the framework around how you design your team, or the team designed it, was a little bit different for each maintenance team, they weren't all identical. If you have a look at all of the SIPs, all the SIPs aren't identical. There's some different arrangements in each of those SIP agreements that reflect the differences within the teams.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XXN MR HALE
PN1142

There's one common thread within those SIPs isn't there? That's the thread that there's absolutely nothing in there that says that you can't work three 10 hour days over a week in which a public holiday falls?---Yes, you are right it doesn't say that there.

PN1143

You gave an explanation as to why that absence was, and your explanation was that that was because it was well known that you couldn't do that, that there was no need to put it in there because it was well known, everybody knew that you couldn't put it in?---It was no different to people wanting to do 14 hour days. I mean that wasn't, that wasn't what was given either, like there was a 32 hour week, we all knew it was a 32 hour week in a public holiday week.

PN1144

Except the garage?---The garage may well do 32 hours, it depends on how they are rostered and how they are being called in or what hours they are done, they may well do more, it depends on the situation of the week.

PN1145

They are rostered hours for that week and we've seen a copy of the roster, do you want to contest the roster? Do you want to say that the roster that was brought forward and was part of the evidence, would you like me to show you the roster?
---No, I know the roster.

PN1146

Would you like to contest that that isn't the roster that works in the garage?---No, that's the roster that works, I agree.

PN1147

Doesn't it show that in a public holiday week, people are rostered for three 10 hour days?---It may well do, yes.

PN1148

Now so why then is the garage different to all of the other places in relation to getting the SIPs certified, because that's your area of expertise, you were there as a member of the steering committee, that rubber stamped the garage arrangements that contained provisions that they can work three 10 hour days during the public holiday week?---Yes.

PN1149

So how do you explain that?---Well I thought I did before when I said they work a different arrangement, like I said they work weekends, they work public holidays, they get called in on public holidays and again they get called in out of hours. So they've got a completely different arrangement than most of our other teams.

PN1150

We'll move off there, and move on to the 137 area?---Yes.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XXN MR HALE
PN1151

The 137, would you be in a position to have any knowledge of what hours they may have worked?---Not a lot, no, I left 137 in I think around early 92, I think I came out of 137 around 1992 before SIPs was introduced into 137.

PN1152

Okay so that was before - - -?---And just to clarify a point, I didn't negotiate the SIP agreements, they were done individually by the teams, not so much negotiated but they actually worked on the SIP agreement as a team, each team are a little bit different and they worked on their requirements for their team.

PN1153

I think that's the evidence that you gave, that you were on the steering committee that endorsed them rather than you actually negotiated?---That's right.

PN1154

You endorsed them within guidelines?---Yes, correct.

PN1155

So you were never aware, so you couldn't say one way or the other whether the 137 work area had worked three 10s right from the beginning?---No. I have never heard - - -

PN1156

So you are saying no?---Well I'll go further than saying that. I have never known anyone, bar recently to work three 10s, I have never had knowledge of it.

PN1157

There's a difference between never knowing and knowing positively that they didn't. So can you give evidence that they definitely didn't work three 10s during a public holiday period in the 137 area at the beginning?---No, I can't give evidence of that sir.

PN1158

Now in relation to the maintenance work do you have any knowledge of the start up procedure on a maintenance job?---Yes, some jobs I certainly have. Can you just clarify what you mean by start up?

PN1159

On a I guess, tell me if I'm wrong might be the easier way. On the start up people would arrive on the job or they get allocated the job, they would collect the tools, collect parts, whatever is necessary. They would go to the place where they are going to work – is there a tool box meeting at the start?---Yes, there is, yes.

PN1160

How long could they go?---The daily contact meetings could go 20 minutes, half an hour, 10 minutes, it depends on the discussions that needs to be had, or it could be at the end of the day.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XXN MR HALE
PN1161

Does the work have to be isolated?---Yes.

PN1162

Does the isolation, if there's any electrical isolation does that mean that an electrician has to come down and test?---Yes, they have to be verified if they are electrical, yes.

PN1163

How long could that take?---It could take five minutes, it could take 55 minutes depending on where it is and how long it takes to complete it.

PN1164

Checking machinery, doing machinery checks, would that have to happen at the start of each day?---Machinery checks, vehicle checks?

PN1165

Yes, vehicle checks?---Log book stuff, yes.

PN1166

That process would have to commence every day?---Yes.

PN1167

And every afternoon the isolation tags, or the individual isolation tags would come off, is that correct?---They may well do, yes.

PN1168

So the next day, that process would have to be gone through again?---It may well be, yes.

PN1169

How then is it more efficient to do that four times, than it is to do it three?---Well I don't think we are talking about – if you are talking about the safety of the individuals and teams, it wouldn't matter how long it takes. I mean if we are talking about integrity of making sure that the equipment is safe for our people to work on, it wouldn't matter if it took 10 times.

PN1170

But this isn't what we are talking about is it? What we are talking about is the amount of time spent doing the work that's required to be done?---Tagging and testing is part of doing the work. That's a requirement that must be met.

PN1171

Yes, but on a three day week it's a requirement that needs to be met three times, on a four eight hour week, it's a requirement that needs to be met four times, isn't it?---It totally depends on how long the job goes for. It may be a job that's an eight hour job, it could be a four hour job, and then the guys finish it, de-isolate it and go to the next job. They may have three jobs to do in a day. They may have four.

PN1172

But your problem, as you've told the Commission in relation the efficiency and the difficulties of people working a three day week, that arises from those bigger jobs where they go over a number of days, and where they require a large number of employees. That's where you've told the Commission your problem arises, isn't it?---No, I haven't. I've told the Commission that it's about spreading our work out over four days, levelling our maintenance activity over a four day period then trying to condense it and have a peak load over two days in a public holiday week.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XXN MR HALE
PN1173

So the size of the job doesn't make any different?---It can.

PN1174

So, what difference does it make?---Well you are not trying to condense all of your labour over a two day period. It gives us an opportunity to level and balance our maintenance activities and processes over four days, not over two. When all of the guys are there over two days, it's just a big peak, it's a spike and it doesn't suit a number of the manufacturing areas, someone will miss out if we've got to condense that down to a number of two to three days, instead of a four day period.

PN1175

Well except that what you say is when all of our employees are only there for two days, that's I guess what you are saying is that you have some of your employees there for the entire four days, but you only have all of them there for two of those days, isn't that right?---Which crew are we talking? Are we talking generally in the work crew.

PN1176

You just said we have all of our employees there two days?---Yes.

PN1177

Are you saying that you don't have the four days covered?---We have the four days covered, if you are talking about a Friday, we have it covered with
50 per cent of our employees there approximately. On a Monday, we have the other 50 per cent there approximately. In a public holiday week, when there's another day off, obviously again we are going to have 50 per cent of the people there on two of those days. So whether they take the Tuesday off then we've got 50 per cent of them there on the Tuesday and the one's that had Tuesday off will be there on Thursday and the one's that will be off that worked on the Tuesday.

PN1178

Right but with the exception of the public holiday, you still have the same amount of coverage, you've still got coverage for four days of maintenance for that week?
---We have yes, you are right, but again Monday we have 50 per cent of them there, and Friday we have 50 per cent of them, and we have them all there Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday in a normal week, you're correct.

PN1179

So that the only time that there's any real problem that you are likely to have, is when you have a maintenance job that goes longer than two days, isn't it?---No. We may have three or four jobs we want to get done in any of those Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday in a public holiday week, we may have half a dozen jobs in electrode.

PN1180

Maybe there's something wrong with the logic. This is what I think. I think you get three people working 32 hours, we'll say, so that we don't have the two hour argument?---Yes.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XXN MR HALE
PN1181

If you have people working 32 hours over three days, with three lots of start time compared with those same people working over four hours but only for eight hours with the same amount of start up time. So they've got four start up times, as opposed to three start up times, they can only do so many hours work within there hours. Where is the advantage to you of them working four days in that week?
---Well I'll try again.

PN1182

Yes?---The start up time isn't an issue on the work, that's not an issue, it's the issue about trying to level our maintenance activity and process over four days. I've said we've got three areas to cover and the rest of the plant and we've got to try and cover that basically when all of the guys are there, in a public holiday week over two days, the rest of the days, we've only got 50 per cent of them there.

PN1183

What about if I put it to you that you actually plan for longer, some of those jobs are planned for longer, because people don't get paid overtime, and you don't have to care. So an eight hour day can be the same as a 10 hour day?---So I'm not too sure what you are mean?

PN1184

When you are not paying overtime right?---Yes.

PN1185

Then there's no real pressure on you to try to schedule that it's a 10 hour day, or an eight hour day, you just give them the job and they stay there until they are finished?---The jobs scheduled as Mr Luppino spoke about yesterday, the jobs scoped and the jobs planned for the activity and the equipment and the resources that's required to do the job, so I don't understand your question. How do we – I just don't understand where you are coming from.

PN1186

Okay on the example that we used yesterday, if I can find it, it was a witness statement of – it was AMWU3 the witness statement of Shane Walters, have you got a copy or?

PN1187

MR OGILVIE: I have got a copy.

PN1188

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.

PN1189

MR HALE: Can I take you to Tuesday 24 January?---Which page?

PN1190

The metals division work crew, can you see that Tuesday 24?---Yes.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XXN MR HALE
PN1191

Take you about half way through that top section, where you've got Steve,
Dave Smith, see that?---Yes.

PN1192

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, who was that?

PN1193

MR HALE: Steve, or S-t-e-v, Dave Smith,. I think it's either one person's name, or two person's names?---Yes. I've got it.

PN1194

If you look there, we were told yesterday that the time allocated to the job is that paragraph after the – or that column immediately after the down time. So it goes 1100 to 1800?---Yes.

PN1195

For Stev, Dave Smith, they're two jobs allocated for that day, have got down time of 13 hours, can you see that?---Are you talking about the down time starting at 1100 and finishing at 1800?

PN1196

Yes, that's eight of them and the next job replace the incline belt scrappers?
---Yes.

PN1197

The same two people are allocated to it and it's got a time of five hours?---Yes.

PN1198

That was the day they worked the 12 hour day with the Australia Day public holiday, and the down time allocation was 13 hours?---Yes.

PN1199

Now the down time is the minium amount that the machine is going to be down, there is also wash up time, preparation time, all of those things that are in addition to that, aren't they?---Yes, I think they are all planned inside those hours, they are not in addition.

PN1200

What was that, so start up and okay so it's planned for 13?---Yes.

PN1201

That's an example of the question I was asking you about you don't really care whether they work overtime or not, because they don't get paid overtime, so you can plan whatever you like?---Look I haven't got the intimate detail of the eight hour job, I don't know if that's two people or three people. That could be an extra person on the job there for an eight hour job. I haven't got the intimate detail of it so – all I can look at is the data, I don't have the background knowledge to it. I'm sure Mr Morris who is coming up here later, may be able to glean some more information out of there, but like I say, I don't know whether there's an extra person put on that job to help out. Because it doesn't say 16 hours, it says eight and there's two people on there. Or two or three, so - - -

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XXN MR HALE
PN1202

No, but that's talking about the down – well if you don't know about it, it is unfair of me to ask you - - -?---No, no, I'm saying if that's the eight hours on the job - - -

PN1203

No, but that's the down time?---No, the down time is the one next to it, that's the hours that it's unavailable the piece of equipment. The next one's the hours of the job, so it's an eight hour job and you've got two people in there, so I don't see anything wrong with that.

PN1204

Except that the same two people have been allocated five for the next one?---Yes.

PN1205

So doesn't that come to 13 hours?---Well it's an eight hour job probably for one person, I think they've put two people on it. Like I say I don't - - -

PN1206

No, no – I'll get you to have a look. The one above the number one P and F trolley chains is the eight hour job?---Yes.

PN1207

The two people allocated to it?---Yes.

PN1208

Are Stev, Dave Smith?---Yes.

PN1209

The job immediately under it replacing line and belt scrappers?---Yes.

PN1210

It's a five hour job, and the two people allocated to that are Stev and Dave Smith?
---Yes.

PN1211

Eight and five is 13?---Yes.

PN1212

So it's planned that in their 12 hours they are to do a 13 hour job?---Well it says 13, but what actually they have to do I don't know. Again for the detail of that question it may be better for Mr Morris, who would have a bit more intimate knowledge of that.

PN1213

Yes, well I will ask him?---Yes, sorry about that.

PN1214

Now we've had some evidence that there were all these other things involved as well but Alcoa Australia, or is it Alcoa Point Henry, or – well the evidence given was it is one of the expensive maintenance measured in cents per pound in all the Alcoa plants, it's the third most expensive smelter in the Alcoa system I think you said?---Yes, it was when we started the REX reliability excellence program.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XXN MR HALE
PN1215

Where else does Alcoa have smelters in the world?---North America, South America, Canada and there's – where else would there be smelters – they are in some joint ventures, the rest I'm not too sure.

PN1216

China?---I'm not too sure they've got smelters, I know they've got rolling mills, but I'm not too sure about smelters.

PN1217

Okay well the South American ones one of the ones that were higher?---South Americans ones are yes, pretty sharp operations yes.

PN1218

So they were cheaper smelters cents per pound were they?---They were probably – look I couldn't talk too much about the Chinese ones, if there is one there. I know a little bit about the North American smelters.

PN1219

Are they dearer cents per pound?---They aren't now, no. Like I say there was a couple above us, and some of the other North American smelters were below us, and some were very good.

PN1220

Where are you now?---We've probably moved from being one of the top three, we've probably moved down, to I think, I don't want to be quoted on it, but I think somewhere around the second quartile in the costs. So we've moved since in the last 18 months, we've moved down the scale a bit. I think Portland is still a tad in front of us.

PN1221

Since REX was introduced, your evidence is that you are going backwards?---No, we are getting better.

PN1222

You are getting better?---Yes. We are not there yet, but we are getting better.

PN1223

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just on that point. There was evidence that there was a backlog of 50 planned maintenance jobs, is that right and now that's been reduced to 20?---Twenty weeks.

PN1224

50 weeks to 20 weeks?---Yes.

PN1225

How has that been achieved over the course of the period of time? Well first of all, how much time has it taken to reduce that backlog and how has it been achieved?---It's taken us about six to seven months and it's been basically achieved through a whole structure change through maintenance. Mr Ardonetto spoke yesterday about bringing some short lead capabilities back into the manufacturing areas, so they can handle the small day to day jobs that aren't break downs, that need to be done, that were building up in the backlog. Our planning processes are a lot sharper, we've introduced area planners that actually plan and kick the work, so that when the jobs are planned the parts are ready, piece of machinery that are required, scissor lifts are ready. It's a lot of it has been sharpening up our processes around how we deliver our skills particularly around our contractor utilization we've reduced our contractor hours and redirected our heavy engineering tradesman into the field, and they've got a lot, even their knowledge on the equipment, and so they've been able to – they are pretty highly skilled they've been able to help deliver some pretty good outcomes there on planned work. We've moved one of the teams closer to the customers, they had a bit of travelling to do. A whole host of things, where we are particularly around planning the work has really been and introduced a scheduler for the whole of maintenance that schedules all the maintenance for one person instead of a number of people trying to schedule the work. It all funnels through the scheduling department, but basically planning is one of the biggest gains that we've got. We've just got smarter and the LCE consultants that came in from America to help work our way through the reliability excellence re-designers, they bring some pretty sharp methods, methodology around how you should do your maintenance. In other words, planning the job, making sure the parts are ready, making sure the equipment is down on time, and then when the, our traders to in they've got no hold ups they can deliver the tool time in most efficiently as they can. Where before we had a lot of people doing the planning, we probably had somewhere in the vicinity of about 20 people planning work and trying to put it through a number of different of schedulers and that just created a lot of overlaps, a lot of wasted resources, a lot of extra contractors not utilising them all that well. So all of the maintenance work planned work comes through one department and one scheduling department, and that's been able to really pull some good feeders there for us.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XXN MR HALE
PN1226

Well with your planned maintenance you know, of course, what machinery needs maintenance on what regularity it has to be done and so forth?---Yes.

PN1227

When you come to plan a job you start by working out do you, what the job entails?---Yes.

PN1228

What's involved and then how many hours are required to do that job,?---Yes.

PN1229

Then you look at the number of people that are required to do that job?---Number of resources, yes.

PN1230

So that if you worked out that the job was going to be 10 hours for one person, and then if it was possible to use two people to do the job you could reduce the number of hours it takes to do that job to five fours?---It would be a five hour job, it would be a 10 hour job, but two people would go on it for five hours.

PN1231

All right, thanks Mr Hale.

PN1232

MR HALE: If I can just take you back to your statement again, particularly that 14 when you talk about the pot rooms?---Yes.

PN1233

You say, "They continued to work this schedule when they came into the pot rooms", can you see that there?---Is that section 14?

PN1234

It will have paragraph 14?---I can't see the word – yes, they continued to work this schedule when they came into the pot rooms, yes.

PN1235

Then you go on, "However even when employees in the pot rooms started working four ten hour days, everyone still flexed back to working four eight hour days during the public holiday week"?---Well everyone that was one 10 hour days, yes. I was already on eight so I didn't have to flex back.

PN1236

Yes, I'm not trying to make a point of that. Can you remember any of the names of these people that came in from outside?---Yes. Yes, there was Kerryn Saga and there was Bill Stracken as I came out and I think - - -

PN1237

Kerryn Saga, did he come from Anglesea?---He left Point Henry and went to Anglesea for a short period of time and came back.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XXN MR HALE
PN1238

You're saying that he didn't remain on the same conditions that he had at Anglesea?---In respect to the four 10 hour days?

PN1239

And in respect to the three 10 hour days in the public holiday week?---I don't know what he did at Anglesea to be quite honest. I know what he came into the department he worked four 10s and he was the first person that came in to do that on a week in week out basis to the best of my knowledge anyway.

PN1240

Okay to the best of your knowledge or you know that?---To the best of my knowledge at that time I don't know anyone else in the pot rooms that was on a regimented four 10s.

PN1241

But is it just to the best of your knowledge, or you know for sure that he worked four 8s on a public holiday week?---I know he worked four 8s when we weren't on a public holiday week yes, I worked in the office opposite him.

PN1242

In paragraph 16 you say "Although I was not close enough to be able to say when it actually happened, I became aware in 2000 that the four eight hour day public holiday week was beginning to break down in some areas". Can you tell us what areas they were?---I went into a production role in 2001 and through some of the teams that supported the pot rooms in a maintenance capacity, there were some questions asked around, who have we got here today, and say for example, in a public holiday week and that's became aware of it that people were having their public holiday off and their day off as well.

PN1243

But at that stage, you weren't in any supervisory position, were you?---Yes, I was, I was supervisor in production.

PN1244

Did you do anything about it then?---No, I was a production supervisor.

PN1245

It was production?---Yes.

PN1246

Okay so you thought it was none of your business?---No, I just heard about it. When you asked well where was some of the people that normally support the area in maintenance you know they were off, in a public holiday week on another day off, okay, well their off. That's when I first heard about it.

PN1247

You can't give us specific areas, or - - -?---Just the teams that were supporting it. There was 137, who were doing pot commissioning at the time. There was the metal division work crew at times.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XXN MR HALE
PN1248

So if we can just deal with 137. You're saying that didn't go on that until about 2000?---No, I'm saying I wasn't aware of it until the early 2000s.

PN1249

So what are some of the other areas?---The only other area that I knew about at the time, that I heard they were doing a little bit of it was the metal division work crew.

PN1250

What about the garage?---No.

PN1251

You haven't heard of it, or you didn't use the garage?---Not in the production area, they work out of the workshop mainly and only come into the area to take a vehicle down.

PN1252

Or if a vehicle runs out of fuel, or flat tyre or something like that, is it?---Yes, but if it was on a public holiday, and they weren't there we called them in, so we really didn't see any impact of how they worked, I mean we just made a phone call and there was one there.

PN1253

Except that we are not talking about a public holiday, we are talking about one of those other days of the week, in which a public holiday falls and you wouldn't need to call anyone in then, would you?---Well we were just ringing the same number.

PN1254

That's right?---Yes.

PN1255

When were the supervisors re-introduced?---The supervisors, when I say
re-introduced I mean they were getting closer to the teams and starting to work through some team issues and we were just getting closer to really how the team functioned, I suppose is the word about being re-introduced. They always had a supervisor but you know, probably the early 2000s they were starting to be closer to the teams and I think Mr Lange spoke about that yesterday that on that point, how close they were getting back in, closer to the teams. And just in trying to how would you say, you know, make sure the teams were doing the right thing, make sure the teams were responding to different maintenance requests, just getting closer.

PN1256

That was about 2000 you said?---Yes, I'm pretty sure it was around 2000, it was just as I was coming out of maintenance and going into production.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XXN MR HALE
PN1257

That was about the same time, according paragraph 16, that you first became aware that the four eight hour days public holiday was beginning to break down and that was about the same time the supervisor was being re-introduced?---Yes, it would have been.

PN1258

Then you say, "I believe that this issue has come to a head as a result of the re-introduction of supervisors who have been trying to get employees back to working the hours required under the SIP arrangement"?---Which paragraph is that one?

PN1259

Twenty?---Twenty sorry, yes.

PN1260

Five years ago?---Yes, that's my belief, yes.

PN1261

So are you aware of any supervisors that have actively tried to get people to work the four 8s before December 2005?---Before 2005, yes.

PN1262

Who are they?---Ernie Gosier.

PN1263

Okay, anyone else?---Bill Guinane.

PN1264

Bill Guinane, what area was he in?---He was in, he was looking after light engineering at certain times. Heavy engineering at another certain time.

PN1265

What steps did he take, do you know?---Back then, all I've had the conversation with him is that he had spoken to the teams about going back and trying to work in an arrangement that the SIP was intended in.

PN1266

Or was it in discussions in relation to how to cover for those weeks in which a public holiday fell?---It may well have been that as well.

PN1267

Had he said anything about lack of cooperation by any of the employees concerned?---Yes, I think at times, he said it was a little bit difficult to talk, the guys would get a little bit angry with him about it, I recall a conversation, yes.

PN1268

This was Mr Gosier as well?---No. Ernie - the discussion I had with Ernie was that Ernie had spoken to a team, I think a couple of teams about it, and he was comfortable with the outcome of that discussion.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XXN MR HALE
PN1269

So that would be consistent with the consultancy clause in the agreement would it?---That would be consistent with the - - -

PN1270

Consultation provisions in the agreement?---I'd say it would be, yes.

PN1271

Were you the senior shop steward at the time the consultancy provisions went in the agreement?---Good question. I think that's been in for a long time, I think that's been in since very early – it would have been in the EBA since the early 90s.

PN1272

Which would have been when you were senior – it certainly would have been in the agreement when you were senior shop steward?---Yes, yes.

PN1273

Okay so you'd be aware of both parties seeing some benefit in consultation rather than confrontation?---Yes.

PN1274

That what that you just described about discussing with employees ways in which they can achieve the areas of coverage needed, would be in line with the consultation provisions in the agreement?---Yes.

PN1275

That's quite different to the recent position the company's taken, that says that you will go back to the eights unless we agree different?---No, I don't see it any different. We started consulting and sitting down and having many meetings with the senior stewards from as early as late December, early January 2006, probably on at least a weekly or fortnightly basis we would broach the subject and sit down at our weekly meeting and talk about it.

PN1276

When they didn't agree to your position, you gave them a direction, or at least Charlie Adornetto gave them a direction, and then you docked them when they didn't follow that direction?---That was the outcome, there was a bit that went on before that, there was an agreed position. That was put on the table by Mr Lange at the time, which was until we can work our way through and try to get to an outcome so we can move forward with the consultative process around the public holiday week, there was an agreement put on the table that we would work that as an interim until we can get to a landing point. But that was never ever adhered to.

PN1277

What was never adhered to?---The two 10s and a 12.

PN1278

So what you're now giving evidence that that never happened?---Not by everybody, no there was incidents where, you know, if you have a read of it, where people wanted to do any different was to try and give the planning department a little bit of time to help work the schedule, but in the main there was, 10 and 12 not in every team. The metal division work crew were doing it, but not in every other team.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XXN MR HALE
PN1279

This was after the proposal was put?---This was after the proposal Mr Lange put down yes, as an interim, while we worked through the consultative process, not everybody worked to that interim agreement.

PN1280

What are you saying some people were working three 10s then?---To our knowledge, yes.

PN1281

What about your planning?---Sorry?

PN1282

What about your planning?---What do you mean?

PN1283

Well Dave Smith and Stev, who I took you to before, Stev and Dave Smith?---The metal division work crew were working like I just said, were working because they were being planned the 10, 10 and 12, but a number of the other teams weren't.

PN1284

Who were they?---There was light engineering.

PN1285

Okay so what are you saying light engineering was working?---They were supposed to be working a 10, 10 and 12. They were working 10, 10s and 10s.

PN1286

Well this is new. How long have they been working the week before?---I don't know. All I know is the question was during that interim agreement, there was an agreement reached between the consultative group that was an interim to move forward and not everyone was working to that.

PN1287

Did you raise that with the shop stewards?---Yes, we did.

PN1288

What did they say to you?---Not a lot, what could they say?

PN1289

They could say well we'll go and talk to them and find out whether that's true or not?---Well you might have to ask Steve that.

PN1290

Okay, if I'd known about it earlier I might have. So that at 21 you say, "To my knowledge at the moment some employees work a four eight hour day week, during a public holiday week, others work two 10 hour day, and 12 hour days". You see that?---Yes.

PN1291

You are saying that's at the moment. Is that did you mean at the moment, or did you mean pre-December when the dispute over it started?---That's probably over a long period of time.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XXN MR HALE
PN1292

Sorry?---That's probably over different periods of time.

PN1293

Right but was it pre-December, was it at the time when you wrote the statement?
---Yes, it was probably at the time of the statement.

PN1294

So the time of the statement, the statement was made after people had been docked?---I think it might have been – 11 July, I think it was after that.

PN1295

Okay so the statement was made after people had been docked and you say some employees work four eight hour day week during the public holiday week. The previous ones that hadn't done that, that's why they were docked wasn't it?---Can you ask the question again?

PN1296

Well you say, some employees work a four eight hour day week during the public holiday week, now the previous two times, or it might not have been, I think there was a Queens Birthday in there – leaving aside the agreed position on the Queens Birthday, the previous two times to that, people didn't work that, that's why they were docked wasn't it?---During – after the letter – when we couldn't get to a position in the end and there was a mass meeting and the stewards came back from the mass meeting and reported back that the proposal that was put on the table was knocked back and then we were informed by the senior steward at the time, Paul Johnson that the proposal had been knocked back and that the employees were going to work three 10 hour days moving forward. So after that point in time, there was a decision made at a senior management level, to sit down and say well where do we go from here, and it was well let's - - -

PN1297

Right but – and I'm not trying to trip you up here – but at the time of writing this it wouldn't have been true that people were working three 8s, the dispute had already started. People were working three 10s - - -?---No, there was people were working differently. Some people were working the four 8s, some people were working three 10s and some people were working tow 10s and a 12 and senior steward sat down with us at one of the consultative meetings and even said to us at the time, which was Paul, he said I work two 10s and a 12, so it was all over the shop.

PN1298

What, during the dispute?---Yes.

PN1299

You docked him, he worked two 10s and a 12 and you docked him, is that what you are saying?---The ones – during the dispute week you are talking about?

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XXN MR HALE
PN1300

During when you docked them?---Yes.

PN1301

Which was leaving aside the Queens Birthday weekend, the only other – or the two times before that, they worked three 10s and you docked them isn't that right?---They were docked during that yes, and - - -

PN1302

And they were docked for working three 10s?---Yes, they were.

PN1303

So what you are in effect talking about here, is pre the dispute, aren't you?---Yes, I think so, yes. Yes, to my knowledge at the moment, yes, probably was.

PN1304

So it's not at the moment, it was prior to December 2005, or something that some people were working that? Is that right?---It could have been at any point in time. I don't understand your question.

PN1305

What I'm saying to you is that at the moment, I guess you either made the statement, or you swore to the statement, that wasn't correct, I'm just trying to find out what the correct position was. What are you talking about there? Are you talking about what used to happen before this became an argument?---Yes, I think so, that's what I was trying to elude to that this is I suppose, what had been the practice. The current public holidays work practices at Point Henry's there and I suspect that's what I'm trying to say there is that some people work four eight hour days during a public holiday, and others work two 10 hour days and 12 hour days and there's probably some other combinations as well. But I haven't put that in.

PN1306

Those other combinations can be three 10s?---Could be three 10s, could be 11s, could be 9s, it could be a combination of eights to 12s.

PN1307

They would have arisen out of the autonomous work groups organizing their hours to suit the job needs of the company, would they?---In a public holiday week?

PN1308

Yes?---Yes, I'd say it would have been.

PN1309

Now you talk about the payroll system and you say - - -?---Whereabouts?

PN1310

Twenty three?---Twenty three yes.

PN1311

You say that:

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XXN MR HALE
PN1312

The fact that employees are expected to work a 32 hour week made up of four eight hour days during a public holiday week is clear from Alcoa's payroll system, under this system a day, during a public holiday week is treated as eight hours. It would not make sense for employees to work three 10 hour days during a public holiday week as this would mean paying them for 10 hours for the public holiday. This is not the way the payroll system set up.

PN1313

When was the payroll system set up that way?---Well the payroll system goes back a fair way with the SIPs it goes back to the mainframe system, the HMRS and then we moved into the oracle software payroll system that we've got now. It would have been 2002, 2003 I think.

PN1314

All right so when was the payroll system set up for eights during a public holiday week as opposed to 10s?---It's always been that way, from the old system to the new system, it was just a roll over different software basically.

PN1315

Weren't there a number of people after this dispute, after it had been to the Commission on the first occasion, when you looked at the payroll were being credited with three 10s during that public holiday week?---Yes, correct, there were some people that had been loaded into the new system incorrectly. Their roster had been loaded in incorrectly. I think by memory 20-odd people out of 140-odd.

PN1316

So when did that incorrect loading commence, do we know?---I'd say from the inception of oracle.

PN1317

Which went back, how long?---2002, 2003.

PN1318

Didn't you just tell me the old system just rolled over into the new system?---But you've still got to manually download that data. Someone has to put that data into the new system, has to put that data into the oracle system, you just don't flick a switch and it rolls over.

PN1319

Who would have instructed the data input person to do that, do you know?---To put the information in there?

PN1320

Yes, the information that's required?---That would have been a HR function to – I can't answer that question I don't know who would have said do what.

PN1321

When you tell us about the difficulties you have with scheduling for maintenance when a public holiday falls in a week. I think we've been dealing pretty well when it falls on a Monday or a Friday, but is it worse when it falls in the middle of the week?---The difficulties are trying to schedule the work in a condensed timeframe, that's the difficulties in a public holiday week trying to schedule the planned work in a condensed timeframe. You are still doing the same amount of work but you are trying to condense it over a shorter period of time, that's the difficulties.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XXN MR HALE
PN1322

Except that Monday to Friday I can understand that, that means your week is going to be reduced to four days – I don't agree with it, but I can understand what you are saying – over four days, but these are four consecutive days. When it falls in the middle of the week, then you are not going to even have the consecutive days, are you?---You're talking about when the public holiday falls in the middle of the week?

PN1323

Yes, ANZAC falls on a Wednesday, bang you've got two days before the public holiday and two days after the public holiday?---Yes, that's a difficult week.

PN1324

So how is it any advantage to the company in that week, to have everyone working four 8s?---Yes, well you'd have your Monday, Tuesday you'd have a full crew, and Thursday, Friday you would have a full crew, so you'd be able to schedule electrode.

PN1325

But you couldn't schedule three day jobs in that period could you?---Three days as in three 10 hour days, or three 12 hour days. You can still only, you can only, yes, you are right you wouldn't come into the public holiday, you wouldn't work into that, but you could schedule your work in electrode on Monday Tuesday and Thursday pot rooms and the rest of the plant Friday.

PN1326

So why is that any different? You see a public holiday has fallen, it's interfering with your maintenance schedules, why don't you want to get rid of that public holiday as well?---No one is talking about getting rid of public holidays. They are gazetted days, no one's spoken about that at all to my knowledge in this forum or any other.

PN1327

Just on the dispute part where people were docked, if you don't know, just say you don't know. Are you aware of how much people were docked for those two days?---In relationship to hours?

PN1328

Yes?---Yes, they were docked, I think around about eight hours.

PN1329

Each day?---For the week.

PN1330

Each day?---For each day?

PN1331

For each day?---I don't understand the question what do you mean each day?

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XXN MR HALE
PN1332

Weren't there two days in dispute?---Yes.

PN1333

You were saying to them?---Yes, each day, I understand your question now I think it was eight hours for each day.

PN1334

Okay so they worked 30 hours during the week, when you were saying they should work 32 hours on a different pattern, is that correct?---That's correct.

PN1335

So for those two hours, you docked them 16 hours pay, is that correct?---I think that's correct, but I'm not 100 per cent sure. There were certain people who asked for some exemption on certain things, so I truthfully couldn't say exactly the amount of hours.

PN1336

Leaving aside the exemptions and the garage, that's pretty well over across the board, was it?---I truly couldn't say if that was exactly the hours.

PN1337

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What's the logic behind that if they worked 30 hours, you expected 32 hours though. I know you expected it in a different pattern to the way it was worked, but if they worked 30 hours, how can you dock 16 hours pay off them when they are only two hours short of the - - -?
---Your Honour I'm not too sure, what actually they were docked to be honest off the top, I'd have to go back and have a look at what they were done in each team and what happened, I think, Mr Adornetto would probably know a lot better.

PN1338

MR HALE: I've no further questions.

PN1339

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks Mr Hale, just before you
re-examine Mr Ogilvie. Mr Holland, the two teams that you have working a Monday to Friday one working Monday Thursday and the other one working Tuesday Friday, do the same teams work the same days each week. For example, does team A always work Monday to Thursday and team B always work Tuesday to Friday or do they alternate?---No they always work the same.

PN1340

They always work the same?---Monday to Thursday, and Tuesday to Friday.

PN1341

Okay, thanks. Re-examination Mr Ogilvie.

PN1342

MR OGILVIE: No further questions your Honour.

**** ROBERT HOLLAND XXN MR HALE
PN1343

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks for your evidence Mr Holland, you're excused.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.29AM]

PN1344

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We might take a short break. The matter is adjourned.

<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.30AM]
<RESUMED [11.46AM]

PN1345

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you gentlemen.

PN1346

MR OGILVIE: Alcoa calls the next witness Mr Ernie Gosier.

<ERNIE GOSIER, SWORN [11.46AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR OGILVIE

PN1347

MR OGILVIE: Thank you Mr Gosier, have you prepared a witness statement for the purposes of this Commission?---Yes, I have.

PN1348

Have you had a chance to look through that statement?---I have.

PN1349

Is it true and correct?---I would like to change one item.

PN1350

Yes, which item would you like to change?---Item 8, where it says:

PN1351

I became aware of what time the expectation that employees would work four eight hour days in a public holiday week was relaxed in some crews however this never happened in any of the crews which I supervised.

PN1352

That's what it says yes?---It should read:

PN1353

Never happened with any of the delivery crews that I supervised.

PN1354

Are there any other changes you would like to make?---No.

PN1355

So with that change made is the statement true and correct?---Yes.

PN1356

I seek to tender that, your Honour.

EXHIBIT #ALCOA3 STATEMENT OF ERNIE GOSIER

PN1357

MR OGILVIE: In your statement Mr Gosier you say at paragraph 2 that your current role – sorry I withdraw that. So you are the supervisor electrical delivery crew and all of the mechanical and shift personnel at Point Henry?---All the mechanical and electrical shift personnel.

PN1358

So who are the shift personnel crew?---We have six shift trades people on each shift. There are three electricians and three mechanical trades people, we run four shifts.

PN1359

What hours do they work, those people?---These people are on 12 hour rosters right around the clock.

PN1360

So it's the mechanical and electrical shift personnel crew and the electrical delivery crew as well?---No, the electrical delivery crew works 40 hours a week.

**** ERNIE GOSIER XN MR OGILVIE
PN1361

How many are in that crew?---Ten.

PN1362

At paragraph 7 of your statement you say that teams under my supervision have always worked four eight days through public holiday weeks. Who are the teams that you've supervised?---The teams that I'm referring to here is the electrical delivery team and the mechanical delivery team.

PN1363

So what periods of time did you supervise those teams?---I've supervised the electrical team ever since supervisors came back into the system without fail.

PN1364

Which was when?---For the last perhaps six years, seven.

PN1365

The other team?---And the mechanical delivery team I supervised on and off, I had two stints in that area, each one lasting about 14 months to 16 months, I can't exactly recall that.

PN1366

You say the mechanical delivery crews, is that the same as the metals division?
---Work crew, yes.

PN1367

They are the same?---Yes.

PN1368

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, how many in each of those teams?---There were around 18 people in the mechanical team and around 10 in the electrical team. I have to say that perhaps in between I had other responsibilities so I supervised the 137 workshop, I had two short stints there. I had one very short stint in the light engineering group.

PN1369

MR OGILVIE: When was your stint in the workshop? When approximately were you there?---In the 137 workshop?

PN1370

Yes?---That's going back about three years, over the last session.

PN1371

How long was that?---About 10 months perhaps.

PN1372

There's been evidence given yesterday, that employees in the workshops worked three 10 hour days in public holiday weeks, it's not exactly, but fairly soon after the SIP agreements were introduced. Is that your understanding of the hours that the workshop people worked, public holiday weeks?---No, definitely not.

**** ERNIE GOSIER XN MR OGILVIE
PN1373

Why do you say that?---Because my understanding is and was, that the SIP agreement said on the public holiday week we would go back to four eight hour days and as far as I was concerned, that was always the case. There were circumstances in the workshops, in 137 and in light engineering, where because of the workshop environment and not being tied to the manufacturing equipment outside the plant, the workshops were doing their own planning, therefore, they worked some hours, very flexible hours, but to my understanding they always did work 32 hours. If there was a time when they didn't, I definitely missed that.

PN1374

No further questions.

PN1375

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks Mr Ogilvie, yes Mr Hale.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HALE [11.53AM]

PN1376

MR HALE: If I can just take you to that statement that you just said, that it was your understanding that the SIP agreement said they would go back to four eight hour days during the public holiday week. Which SIP agreement was that the 137 SIP agreement?---That was all the SIP agreements with the exception of the garage.

PN1377

If I could just take the witness to the witness statement of Stephen Lange. Do you see attached to that evidence that there are a number of stable and income plans there?---Yes.

PN1378

Okay do you want to have a look through one of those and point out to me where it says that it will revert to a four 8s, when a public holiday falls?---No.

PN1379

Can you find it anywhere?---No, it's never been documented.

PN1380

Didn't you just say in your evidence that it was clear in the SIPs that that was what should happen?---Yes, it was my understanding from the very first day of the SIP agreement that that's what should happen.

PN1381

Okay so did you see anything wrong with the autonomous work groups planning and organizing their own work providing they fulfilled the hours that they should have been there?---No.

PN1382

You saw that as being something that would be appropriate under SIPs?---It was the SIP agreement, that yes, encouraged.

**** ERNIE GOSIER XXN MR HALE
PN1383

So it encouraged that?---Yes.

PN1384

That flexibility?---Yes.

PN1385

It was flexibility that worked in the employees advantage and the company's advantage?---Yes.

PN1386

You answered in relation to the 137 workshop that you were there for about 10 months about three years ago, there would have been some public holidays fall during that period, would there?---Yes.

PN1387

So do you know whether the three 10s were worked by the – or three 10s or a combination that would provide for three days work, whether it was three 10s or 32 hours over three days, were you aware of any of that being worked in the 137 workshop area?---As far as I was aware, yes, there was a 32 hour week that was being worked.

PN1388

That could have been over three days?---That could have been over three days, and in some instances it was, I was aware of that.

PN1389

But providing it didn't affect the company's operational needs, then that didn't really matter did it?---I don't believe, no – let me answer the question by saying no.

PN1390

So in your evidence where you say approximately three years ago the mechanical delivery crew moved to working a three day public holiday week without consulting me. Was that just before you moved to the 137 area, or while you were away at the 137 area, or it is about the similar timeframe isn't it?---Yes, I wouldn't want to be quoted exactly on the dates, that where I've been at the time, because I did move around quite a bit.

PN1391

Then you say, when I became aware of this, I sat down with them and explained the SIP guidelines clearly provided that in a public holiday week employees were expected to work for eight hour days. I accept that we've now established that the SIP guidelines didn't say that, that's right isn't it?---Not in writing.

PN1392

Yes, so not the document. You understood that the guidelines meant that, but not the document?---And the guidelines were understood by people in the delivery crews.

**** ERNIE GOSIER XXN MR HALE
PN1393

You any idea – were you involved in any of the negotiations of the SIPs?---Yes.

PN1394

Have you any idea why that wasn't recorded in the SIPs?---Perhaps not exactly why, but one of the reasons was that the SIP document was never really meant to be very descriptive. It was an agreement and it encouraged people to look at how we best manage and work or plan our work and also allowed for time for flexible hours in line with our family policy.

PN1395

Okay and that could include working three days in a public holiday week?---It could but the understanding from day one was that we would revert back to a four eight hour day on a public holiday week.

PN1396

Wouldn't that be something fairly fundamental that would that get written into the SIPs?---Possibly I didn't write the agreement, I'm sorry.

PN1397

But you were involved in the negotiations of some of them?---I was involved in discussions when representations from teams sat down with the then HR manager and worked through some of the issues they had at the time. The amount of overtime they worked, the shifts they worked, et cetera.

PN1398

That was Mr Virtue, was it?---No, that was John.

PN1399

O'Driscoll?---John O'Driscoll, thank you.

PN1400

You say, I told them that I expected them to work within those guidelines, at paragraph 9 of your statement. Who was at that meeting?---There was the shop steward, Rod Nevel, the assistant was Steven Shackley and I believe that was – I also addressed the team after that meeting and said look our agreement is four eight hour days. If there are any other or different hours to be worked, I would expect you consult me so that we all know what is happening here and who is on board and who is on site and who isn't.

PN1401

Was that Rowan Stewart, was he on your crew in those days?---Yes, Rowan was in the crew, yes.

PN1402

So did you have anyone designated as a team member who could be to act in your stead if you weren't there, or they wanted to notify someone? Maybe if I could – and I don't have a copy of the agreement here, but if I were to read you a paragraph, a provision out of the agreement and you might just be able to help me. It's in clause 6 of the agreement, which is the contract of employment clause. There is provision in there for attendance and it says:

**** ERNIE GOSIER XXN MR HALE
PN1403

Except in circumstances specified in paragraph 3 below, an employee may not be absent from work or any normal rostered day or shift without the prior approval of the immediate supervisor –

PN1404

Which would be you, wouldn't it, you would be the immediate supervisor?
---That's correct.

PN1405

It says:

PN1406

- or a designated contact (it may be a work team member).

PN1407

Did you designate any contact?---The understanding at the time would have been the team leader.

PN1408

The team leader – did they have team leaders, or was it part of the autonomous work group?---The teams had team leaders.

PN1409

So the team leader who would form part of that autonomous work group for each area? So they could, within that provision, work out an arrangement that they could be absent?---Yes. What I asked for was consultation with me.

PN1410

Or your designated?---Yes.

PN1411

So that it could well have been they're taking those days, could well have been within the agreement?---No. I became aware of some of the people working three or 32 hours, two 10s and a 12 hour and as I said I spoke to the shop steward at the time and his deputy I said look I need to be consulted. I'm the supervisor of this group I need to know when people are on site and they are not on site, and we also need to come to an agreement and I've got to be part of this agreement to say, okay is the arrangement good for Alcoa, for the company, or is it not.

PN1412

What about if I put it to you, the way in which that conversation went, was you went to the talk to the shop steward, you said there's a public holiday coming up, we know there's a public holiday coming up, we need to make sure that we've got enough coverage in the area and how can you give us this coverage. We've got these jobs planned that we need to cover, how can you ensure that we've got the right number of people there to do this work. Wouldn't that be more accurate?
---With the base being that we have to meet the business needs.

**** ERNIE GOSIER XXN MR HALE
PN1413

That was appreciated by the shop steward as well as appreciated by you wasn't it?
---Yes, and I'm not sure whether I stated this, but it's in some other document, that I was quite okay with the arrangement.

PN1414

And the shop stewards have never given you any problem in relation to covering that work, have they?---Well, initially there were arrangements made that in my opinion and in the scheduler's opinion did not satisfy the needs of the company and these arrangements were made simply because people wanted to have a day off here and there. Hence my discussion.

PN1415

Yes, but you approached the work group?---Yes.

PN1416

You don't strike me as very dictatorial. You went there, you consulted with them, you told them what your needs were, you consulted and you satisfied your needs. Would that be accurate?---Yes.

PN1417

Now, were you aware of any reasons why it might be more difficult to cover work on three 10s than it would be on four 8s?---You mean two 10s and a 12?

PN1418

Well, two 10s and a 12, yes?---And four 8s - there's a lot of different issues and circumstances in the plan. We're not only addressing two and three day jobs. We're addressing smaller type of jobs as well. My, as a supervisor, my issues are around having half a crew on the first day and on the last day. We do have breakdown situations whereby we're forced into calling in contractors.

PN1419

But doesn't that happen every week?---Yes.

PN1420

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, what was that, you said yes, did you?---Yes, I said yes, your Honour.

PN1421

MR HALE: So is that a constant, because there's got to be pluses and minuses, hasn't there?---There is and that is why the agreement is flexible, but the base is still, when the SIP agreement was struck, it was four 8s.

PN1422

Leaving that aside. At the moment I'm asking you about the flexibility and the ability or the restriction that working two 10s and a 12 would have compared with four 8s, there'd be the start up time problems, or the additional start up, four times instead of three, wouldn't there?---Well, the four times start up problems doesn't really come into the equation because - and we're talking about different jobs and time spans of jobs, so whether we have four days or three days, I don't believe that this argument comes into the equation.

**** ERNIE GOSIER XXN MR HALE
PN1423

So, what you'd say is that in a week that a public holiday falls it would be very unusual to schedule a big job in that week, anyway, would it?---Sometimes big jobs are scheduled and sometimes not. It varies. It so much depends on the need of the plan, the equipment. There's a lot of issues coming in to play. I don't believe I can answer that in just one sentence.

PN1424

On your Monday to Friday, your normal week there's no public holiday. You have half the crew on Monday and half the crew on the Friday?---Yes.

PN1425

Now, you say there's a disadvantage by only having half a crew on the Monday and half a crew on the Friday, but is there any advantage by having 10 hour days whereby you can roster the work to be done in 10 hours?---As compared to?

PN1426

As compared to - well, you've got 50 hours of coverage for that week, as compared to 38 hours of coverage without that arrangement, haven't you?---I'm not sure that I follow this, I'm sorry.

PN1427

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, I didn't quite follow either. Perhaps you can - - -

PN1428

MR HALE: All right. When you've got five 10 hour days, right, which is what you've got, people there - - -

PN1429

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Four 10 hour days, isn't it?

PN1430

MR HALE: No?---Yes, it's four 10 hour days, it's - - -

PN1431

There are people there, there's only half on the Monday and half on the Friday, but there are actual fitters there able to be working five days of 10 hours a day. So that period of time is you have fitters there doing fitting work that are direct employees of Alcoa for 50 hours in a week. Whereas if you were not to have that 10 hour a day arrangement, you would have all your fitters there five days a week but you would only have them for 38 hours for the week or possibly on a 19 day month you might have them for 40 hours per week, would that be right?---So I still don't understand your question, I'm sorry.

PN1432

Okay. So - - -

PN1433

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So you're saying, are you, if they worked eight hour days, five days a week for each fitter you would have 40 hours work.

**** ERNIE GOSIER XXN MR HALE
PN1434

MR HALE: You would have 40 hours coverage, yes.

PN1435

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN1436

MR HALE: The current system gives them 50 hours coverage, but reduced density of the coverage on the Monday and the Friday?

PN1437

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, what do you say to that?---Yes, that's correct, your Honour.

PN1438

MR HALE: And is there any advantage to the company in that?---It still comes down to each person doing 40 hours a week.

PN1439

There is an advantage, isn't there, that's why the company agreed to it?---No. I don't believe that.

PN1440

So in that instance the company abandoned its position that it should be taking into account the needs of the business?---The agreement was struck because of the SIP agreements going down to four 10s instead of five 8s we had.

PN1441

Well, the SIP agreements didn't necessarily do that, did they? That didn't happen in the pop room? It wasn't a requirement of the SIP agreements that it reduce down to four 10s?---No. The SIP agreement for the maintenance department.

PN1442

But it wasn't a requirement for the SIP agreements that it go to four 10s, there was a benefit to the company's business by going to four 10s, wasn't there?---No, not necessarily. It was to the benefit of the employees.

PN1443

So then why was it an abandonment of the company's position that they should look after the interests of the business? They were putting their employees before the business, were they?---No. It wasn't necessarily just putting the employees before the business. It was an agreement that was struck with an open mind to say okay, we can run this business better, make it better for our employees and make it better for the plant. That was the agreement, or that was the essence of the agreement.

PN1444

So the 10 hour days was for the employees' benefit and the company got some other benefit, did they?---Perhaps if you want to - if I wanted to go along with the logic you've put to me, maybe there was an advantage to the company.

**** ERNIE GOSIER XXN MR HALE
PN1445

That's all I was asking?---But in real terms, when we struck the SIP agreement it was to say, okay, we go to a four hour[sic] week which was very, very attractive to the employees, seeing that they - seeing that we now had a three day weekend.

PN1446

If I can take you back to the witness statement that's there before you of Steve Lang, if I can take you to that first stable income plan and just get you to have a read through the objectives of the stable income plan. It's on page 3, I think it is.

PN1447

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are they the same for all the plans, because the first one is the fleet management and I think there is some distinction or difference about theirs, isn't there?

PN1448

MR HALE: I don't know.

PN1449

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, he objected to them all, I think, so. I just thought perhaps you should to go the one that involves Mr Gosier's workplace.

PN1450

MR HALE: He moves around to quite a number of workplaces.

PN1451

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, well, perhaps one of the ones that he's been in.

PN1452

MR HALE: So do you see the one there for 176, is that one where you were, that's SL2?---That's the mechanical delivery crew, yes.

PN1453

Mechanical work crew?---Crew.

PN1454

Yes. If you would have a look at the objectives, to provide stable income for employees, to drive behavioural change to work practices, so that would be
to - - -?---Can I ask what page we're on?

PN1455

It's got page 8 down the bottom, but I think it's - yes, it's page 8 of that plan.

PN1456

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It's got page 8, the number on the bottom.

PN1457

MR HALE: Yes, down the bottom left hand corner?---Right.

**** ERNIE GOSIER XXN MR HALE
PN1458

If you could have a look at the aim of the stable income plans. It's contributing to the viability of the Point Henry smelter in the highly competitive international market. That was sort of part of the reason behind 6, wasn't it?---Are we still on page 8?

PN1459

We're still on - - -

PN1460

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, this is the aim. At the top end of the box there, Mr Gosier?---Yes, all right.

PN1461

MR HALE: Down in the objectives, to minimise wasted time and improve efficiency?---Yes.

PN1462

So they were the aims and objectives of the SIPs, wasn't it?---Yes, to improve the quality of life of all employees.

PN1463

Yes, yes. So that there was something in it for the company to move to a 10 hour day, okay.

PN1464

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You agree with that, do you, Mr Gosier?---Yes, I agree. Your Honour, I haven't disagreed with it.

PN1465

No.

PN1466

MR HALE: I've no further questions, thank you, your Honour.

PN1467

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Hale. I've just got a couple of matters I wanted to raise first, Mr Ogilvie.

PN1468

Mr Gosier, you said that it's difficult at times when you don't have the whole crew there because there are a number of small jobs as well as big jobs. What difference does it make though if you have the two crews there, or a full crew there, I should say, where you've got a number of small jobs as opposed to just having half the crew there when you've got a number of small jobs?---If we had only the jobs that are planned every week, then it probably would make not a great deal of difference, your Honour. We do have a plant to run. It runs seven days, seven nights, continuously. We do have breakdowns. Some of these breakdowns occur on Fridays and on Mondays. In a public holiday week normally - not normally but most of the time it's either Monday or a Friday, there are the occasions where there's a Wednesday, we already have a situation were we had half a crew on a Friday only, then there was Saturday and Sunday which is taken care of by shift personnel only, so these people basically look after the plan. Monday is the public holiday and then on Tuesday we come in with half a crew. There are many instances where we do need tradespeople on site and we then have to resort to going on and employing contractors and/or taking contractors how are already on site off jobs which then creates another situation.

**** ERNIE GOSIER XXN MR HALE
PN1469

What if you had a configuration of, in a public holiday week, if Monday was a public holiday, you had the full crew work Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and the full crews have Monday and Friday off? In other words, if they work two 10s and a 12, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and have Monday, Friday off, that's 32 hours you get with a full crew with those three days?---Yes, well, we could possibly look at things like that, other rosters. I believe that in my experience as a supervisor, it is beneficial to the plant to have a full crew on for four days when there is a public holiday. May I add to this that I have not, and I don't believe it's the intention of the management, said that there's a hard and fast rule. It is
still - the options are still open to people for people to come and say, look, I want to have a three day week instead of a four day week and these are the reasons and we look at the business needs and together we work through the issues.

PN1470

There's a special feature in there to be able to manage that sort of thing?---And in the past, may I also add, that any time I've been approached I do not recall one instance where we couldn't work it through.

PN1471

All right. Re-examination?

PN1472

MR OGILVIE: I have no further questions, your Honour.

PN1473

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you for your evidence, Mr Gosier, you're excused.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.24PM]
<IVAN REGINALD MORRIS, SWORN [12.25PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR OGILVIE

PN1474

MR OGILVIE: You say in your statement, I think it's the paragraph 4 that in your current role you're responsible for planning and scheduling of all metals maintenance work?---That's right.

PN1475

What does that actually involve on a day to day basis?---Currently there are five planners and a scheduler who do that work. The planners plan the work. It goes into the system and the scheduler then schedules the work based on the availability of the maintenance people and the production workforce.

PN1476

If we used, say, the metals division work crew as an example, how many jobs would be scheduled for that crew on each day?---It would depend on the duration of each job. There are some jobs that are only two hours in duration. Some jobs are 10 and there could be configurations of others, and if it's a major job, it may be anything up to - there's one job in the system I know that's got about 200 hours, but that's a long job. So it just depends on what's required that particular week.

PN1477

But on an average day what sort of numbers would it be?---It varies on the availability of the crew.

PN1478

So if you had a full crew, how many jobs?---Again, it's variable, based on the number of hours in each of the jobs and the number of people that are required to complete that task.

PN1479

Part of these proceedings is that there's been evidence that there was a - and it's agreed there was a proposal put forward by the unions at the start of the year in terms of working public holidays that consists of working two 10 hour days and one 12 hour day, do you remember that?---Yes.

PN1480

Or a similar pattern. In your view why hasn't that been an acceptable compromise for the company compared to working four eight hour days with a public holidays?---From my aspect, from a scheduling aspect, having the full crews across four days gives you total coverage. Some of the jobs in the system do have in-built FAT within them, so that if they do find a problem during a PM, you can complete it. Some of those jobs are returned before time and we're currently sending some of those back to what we're calling our new reliability group, to go back and review those based on the number of hours that are indicated on that job.

PN1481

But why is it important to have full crews?---Well, in some cases it suits the - in a lot of cases it suits the business needs. There are periods where we take the electro down which is predominantly Tuesday/Wednesdays which basically leaves two other days, so, for the pop rooms in the other plant. If we went to four 8s we can complete more work over that four day period based in all areas. One of the areas would suffer if we went to a 10, 10, 12.

**** IVAN REGINALD MORRIS XN MR OGILVIE
PN1482

What do you mean by you could complete more work?---The week that we did do four 8s we actually completed more work than was in the system, than the normal 10, 10, 12, but again that would - it would depend on what the jobs that were in the system, based on the - - -

PN1483

The union's evidence is that if the work is getting done, the work that's being planned is getting done using that two 10s and a 12 system, then it's the same number of hours?---If I - I said that if we completed all our work, that would be false. We don't complete all our work - - -

PN1484

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, I didn't catch that? You said what, sorry?---We don't complete 100 per cent of our work each week.

PN1485

At any time?---At any time.

PN1486

MR OGILVIE: What are the factors that - - -?---That could be due to illnesses, could be due to breakdowns, so we actually have to drop scheduled work to go and do the breakdown work.

PN1487

No further questions, your Honour.

PN1488

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you want to have Mr Morris previous witness statement tendered?

PN1489

MR OGILVIE: I'm sorry, yes, your Honour. I jumped the gun.

PN1490

Have you prepared a witness statement for the purpose of these proceedings?
---Yes, I have.

PN1491

Have you had a chance to read through it?---Yes, I have read it.

PN1492

Is it true and correct?---I believe so.

PN1493

Thank you, your Honour. I seek to tender that witness statement.

EXHIBIT #ALCOA4 STATEMENT OF IVAN MORRIS
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HALE [12.30PM]

PN1494

MR HALE: Now, you just gave some evidence that in the week you did the four 8s, "We got more work done"?---That's - the total number of jobs was greater than the normal 10, 10, 12 - sorry, the 10, 10, 12 done prior.

**** IVAN REGINALD MORRIS XXN MR HALE
PN1495

So the total number of jobs across those four days was greater than the 10, 10, 12?---Yes. But it's - and you've got to understand, what I said was total number, not hours, but the total number of jobs.

PN1496

So that could just be the fact that you scheduled a lot of small jobs for those eight hour days?---No, it could also mean that based on the production schedules I was able to get people into the areas on the two days that would have been half crew days.

PN1497

But when you say on the four 8s, is that the four 8s that were in dispute? Is that when the letter was sent out to all the employees telling them, this week you're working four 8s and they all decided to work three 10s?---No. There was - I'm pretty sure, I'm going from memory, your Honour, that there was a number of people that did do four 8s.

PN1498

But weren't they the people who normally do four 8s?---That four 8s.

PN1499

But the majority of people who were docked worked 10s, weren't they?---There was - I'm just going from my memory, the week that there was the four 8s, we got more work done that week, as in the number of jobs.

PN1500

Right, but I'm trying to determine what week was it?---I - - -

PN1501

Was it the week that people got docked for?---I'd have to get back to my records. I'm sorry, I- - -

PN1502

I'll have to go to my notes. I just thought we might have been able to take a shortcut?---Not off the top of my head, no.

PN1503

I can find you the days they were docked, but you can't remember those days. Are the days around Easter, Easter Monday, or something, would that be the day you were talking about?---There was a week I'd say, yes.

PN1504

So that was - - -?---That we did do more work that week.

PN1505

Right, but they were the days that are in dispute?---Yes.

PN1506

Okay, so that was when you had 10 hour coverage?---Yes.

**** IVAN REGINALD MORRIS XXN MR HALE
PN1507

10 hour day coverage but you were only paying for eight, is that that week?---I'd have to go back. Yes, I'll say yes.

PN1508

So the amount of hours as opposed to jobs that you got that week, was that greater or less?---The hours?

PN1509

Yes?---Hours were the same.

PN1510

So the hours were the same?---Yes.

PN1511

The number of jobs completed were greater?---That's right.

PN1512

The number or the size of the jobs?---Could have been - would have been - some would have been smaller and some were condensed in time.

PN1513

Was the rotary crusher being worked on that weekend?---I can't remember.

PN1514

Would you have had contractors on that week as well?---We have contractors on every week.

PN1515

And they would work on a job like the rotary crusher?---They could work on any job. Again, not having the schedule in front of me, I wouldn't know.

PN1516

Now, you said that having full crews across four days, if you have a problem during PM, and PM I guess is preventative maintenance, is it?---A PM is an inspection, yes.

PN1517

Right, okay, but does it mean preventative maintenance?---Yes.

PN1518

So someone's doing an inspection and they find a problem, then there's some FAT built into some of the hours so that they can fix up a minor problem?---A minor problem, that's my belief, yes.

PN1519

So if there's some FAT built in, does that mean by going to eight hours you can disregard that FAT, is that the code you're giving me?---No. What I'm saying is that in some cases you may be able to complete the work if there are no problems found.

PN1520

So that would explain the 12 hour day where people were being given two jobs that would go to 13 hours?---The 12 hour day, there were two jobs on that occasion sent to, I believe it was Steve and David. The first job was from - a five hour job from 7.30 to 11 o'clock and then the job in contention where we're saying it was an eight hour job, we did that in seven hours, between seven and six.

**** IVAN REGINALD MORRIS XXN MR HALE
PN1521

So effectively you took some of the FAT out of that job, did you?---I scheduled the job between 11 and 6 o'clock.

PN1522

Yes, but that wasn't what I asked you really, was it? I asked you whether, when you were doing the - did you do the scheduling on that job?---I did the scheduling for that work and the schedule indicated to do this job between seven and six - or sorry, 11 and 6 pm, even though it was an eight hour job, that's right.

PN1523

So that was taken into account, that FAT you were talking about, was it?---Yes.

PN1524

Now, if you're wrong about the FAT, who suffers?---In what way?

PN1525

Are those workers who have corrected the work back until they've completed the job in accordance with the SIPs again?---It would depend on whether it was going to impact on the process or production or whether it was going to impact on the integrity of the equipment. In some cases problems are found and are written down on the PM and reported back to the work execution coordinator or the equipment manager and they aren't repaired at the time either.

PN1526

If somebody had half an hour left on a job and they went home and left it, would that be frowned upon?---If there was something major, there's an expectation that the person working on the crew contacts the work execution coordinator and indicates that there is a potential major problem from which their decisions are made to either repair the job or not repair the job.

PN1527

It's not something major. It's a job that's been allocated for three hours - - -?
---Then if it's not major we could potentially indicate it on the PM that comes back and plant it into the system to be done at a later date. If it needs to be done within the next two or - say, 10, 14, days, which is our short lead work crew period, the work lead work crew come in the next time it was down and do the repairs on it. If it was - if it happens that it breaks down, the shift support would then repair that item.

PN1528

Right, but as far as you allow for some FAT, there's an extra hour that's in there and the FAT doesn't happen, and let's face it, there would be times when jobs go longer than what was expected as well, wouldn't there?---That's correct.

PN1529

So that you can go there, you're doing something break a bolt, all of a sudden you're there for an extra hour?---Yes, and if it was deemed to be needed to be repaired right then and there, the work crew could stay back and complete that task, which is I believe written in the stable income plan.

**** IVAN REGINALD MORRIS XXN MR HALE
PN1530

Yes. Now, when you schedule the eight hours, do you take any 10 hour jobs as having two hours of FAT in them and scheduling them on those eight hour days?
---I grab a 10 hour job and if it's required to be done in that week, I will schedule it for eight hours and indicate if we can - and indicate that it's an eight hour period to do this job.

PN1531

So then of course there's a benefit to your productivity by scheduling 10 hour day jobs on an eight hour day, isn't it?---Most definitely.

PN1532

Is that in accordance with the SIPS agreement?---Scheduling work doesn't have anything to do with the stable income plan. It's the hours on the job and I have these people available during this time frame. I schedule the hours - or schedule the job to be done during that period.

PN1533

Okay?---I should also point out, because I see a lot of the work orders that do come back, it would be a very rare occasion where if somebody comes back and says, have not completed, because I did not have the full time to do it. There are some that do come back that do indicate that, but that's basically because we've either had the piece of equipment given to us late or the cleaning wasn't done on time and they were moving on to other jobs.

PN1534

It would be for a substantial period of time that it's not completed, you wouldn't see something come back not completed with 10 minutes work left there, would you?---No. I haven't seen that.

PN1535

No, but I'm just clarifying that. That it would be, when it's not completed, it would be for a substantial time?---It's for a reason, that's right.

PN1536

At least a couple of hours or something like that?---Yes. It's a major breakdown in the job.

PN1537

You've referred to you've got one job on the system for 200 hours?---Yes, I think it's about 200 hours. It's a mixer overhaul, it's a major job. It'll go over a long period of time. We physically take that piece of equipment out of the system.

PN1538

I wasn't going to question you about that part of it. But what I was going to ask you, is that 200 hours, is that 200 man hours, is that 200 hours for a crew of four on the job or what's that 200 hours mean?---It would be a number of people over a different time frame. It is a significant job so it might say that there's two fitters, two boilermakers, or two fitters, a boilermaker and two riggers on that job. It's a substantial job.

**** IVAN REGINALD MORRIS XXN MR HALE
PN1539

Right, but it might be two fitters for 50 hours each. Does that mean that's 100 hours that goes into that job?---That is 100 hours that goes into that job.

PN1540

Okay, so the 200 hours might mean half of an hour of an electrician, 50 hours of a fitter, five hours of a boilermaker and 25 hours of a rigger?---It could mean that, yes.

PN1541

Is that how it could be figured out?---That could be a break up.

PN1542

So that 200 hours converted into days might be, what, a couple of days?---No. This job is - this is a - - -

PN1543

Sorry, I didn't catch that?---No, this job is a major job. In the past it has gone over a number of weeks, so with two - if we say it goes for five weeks, that's 10 man days of work.

PN1544

Okay. So - - -?---So it's a substantial amount of work.

PN1545

It's 10 man days. Would - - -?---The 200 hours - the 200 hours could be 200 hours for fitters, two of. There may be 80 hours of rigging, two of.

PN1546

Okay, so what you're saying is you're only dealing with the metal maintenance in the plant, is that right?---Metals maintenance?

PN1547

Yes, the mechanical?---No, I'm also scheduling electricians.

PN1548

So that 200 hours would include electricians?---There would be - if there was an electrical component of it, to disconnect the motor and then reconnect the motor at the back end, there would be five hours potentially for one electrician either end to do that disconnection.

PN1549

Right. So I'm back on the 200 hours, I'm still trying to get that right. So I think you said that could take five weeks or something?---It could take a number of weeks, yes.

PN1550

Is that one bloke doing it on his own or - - -?---We would never put one bloke on to that job.

PN1551

Because five 40s is 200?---Understand. We would never put one bloke on to that job. You physically will not get that job done with one person.

**** IVAN REGINALD MORRIS XXN MR HALE
PN1552

Now, I know the maths aren't going to line up exactly, but if you've got two blokes, that would be two and a half weeks, wouldn't it?---No. I'm sorry, I don't understand where you're leading with this. We have this major job, it's going to take so many days to do. Putting more people on to the job doesn't mean to say that you're going to reduce the job in half.

PN1553

No, and that's what I said about it, I understand that part of the mathematics. It's not going to be just a question of dividing it by two. But the more people you have on a job without them getting in each other's road and with them performing a task that isn't, they're waiting for the other bloke to finish first, that can reduce the number of days spent on the job?---In the case of this job, the work execution coordinator has indicated this is the number of people that would be required to complete that job.

PN1554

Did they indicate that number of people on a 200 hour job, how many days that it would be?---No. It's not days, it's hours. In this particular job, goes into an area where there is specifically down time areas, Tuesday or Tuesday/Wednesday. It's the only time we can go in and do that job, so on one week we may only get 10 hours to go in and do it, or if we fill up around the clock, potentially 24 hours. If it goes down for two days, we could potentially get 48 hours run around the clock at that job. Again it would depend on who was doing the job. If it was a work crew, we would get 10 hours on one day. If it was two days, we might
get - you'll get 10 hours both days.

PN1555

Okay. So if it's not a shut week, and that's really it's a 200 hour job you're talking about, that's not a shut down?---No, it's not a shut down. We may shut the green mill down to just repair this one, at one time.

PN1556

That's I guess what I've been trying to arrive at, is if you shut something down to repair it, so it's a major repair, you stop it and there's obviously an urgency to get that back on line as soon as possible, isn't it?---That's right.

PN1557

Whereas this 200 hour job you're talking about could be something like checking the bolts on one of the mills or something like that, could it, where you actually are doing maintenance but it's maintenance that you can send someone down there for two hours and that two hours might go over five weeks, but it's two hours today, four hours tomorrow, that's the 200 job you're talking about here, is it?
---Yes. It's a major job where there'd be some work done this week, some work done next week until we actually finish the job.

**** IVAN REGINALD MORRIS XXN MR HALE
PN1558

Right. So rather than it being a big job where you need to have everybody full on, on there for three days, this one is in fact pretty good for a schedule, I would think, where you've got two hours where you've got two blokes that are doing nothing, you could send them down on that, can you?---No.

PN1559

So it's the work that - - -?---You can't - if you've got two people free, you just can't send them to that job and put more manpower on it because there may not be the work for those two men to do anything on.

PN1560

So is it - - -?---If there were two people free, we'd schedule other work.

PN1561

So is it the plant that determines who or when people work, so when you're trying to schedule for that 200 hour job - - -?---I am scheduling to a production cycle.

PN1562

Right, okay. So it's the plant that's determining what you're scheduling to?---Yes.

PN1563

Right, so the workers that are needed are only needed at that spot for that period of time that production will allow maintenance work to be done on that, that piece of equipment?---Based on the labour availability, yes.

PN1564

So also based on labour availability and prioritising?---That's right.

PN1565

So what we just discussed then is basically what you meant in paragraph 8 of your statement, was it?---No.

PN1566

No?---Paragraph 6 says that:

PN1567

After gathering this information -

PN1568

which is a follow on from paragraph 5, which is:

PN1569

In order to schedule the maintenance work I first get the information from our maintenance system which tells me the maintenance work that needs to be done for that particular period. Then after gathering that -

PN1570

that is the work that is required to be done in each of the process areas.

PN1571

Right?---We then have some meetings. We look at those jobs and then we grab the labour availability from the teams to say, okay, we have this amount of labour available. We have this amount of work that needs to be done. How are we going to fit this labour into this work? Now, this may be completed through just the teams doing it, it may be a combination of contractors and work crew themselves, as in supplementary of labour, and it may also be completed by sending it off to contract, as a direct job.

**** IVAN REGINALD MORRIS XXN MR HALE
PN1572

Right, but when we were discussing it, at paragraph 8 you say:

PN1573

Once I know the teams available labour hours, I schedule the maintenance work based on the labour available.

PN1574

?---That's right.

PN1575

Right, okay:

PN1576

I schedule on the basis that the labour must be flexible to fit with the work order rather than the work needing to be modified to fit the labour.

PN1577

?---That's right.

PN1578

So isn't that what you were talking about with me before where you were saying that it's the production requirement that determines whether that place gets shut down?---No. The - sorry, can you explain that a bit better? I got confused then.

PN1579

We had a fairly lengthy discussion, you and I, a minute ago and what I understand we were talking about was that you were explaining to me how with that 200 hour job that it was an ongoing job?---Okay, yes.

PN1580

That was dictating - the production process was dictating when the labour would be brought in rather than you would be getting labour and sending it down to that job?---That's right. The area indicates that this is our production cycle for whatever period of time and we will fit our jobs in to meet that production site.

PN1581

Right, okay?---Then we schedule the labour to that job.

PN1582

But there would be other instances where that isn't the case, wouldn't there? Wouldn't there be other instances where you would look at the sheet and
say - well, I guess there's evidence before the Commission that says that you're at least 23 weeks behind in the scheduling, would you agree with that?---No. What we have - our maintenance systems - - -

PN1583

Of the schedule maintenance?---Our maintenance system has a number of repetitive jobs, so that we have, what we term, a master work order system. It has jobs that are needed to be done on a routine basis, whether they are repair or inspections. We also have what we call significant or one off jobs or other work that the execution coordinators would like to do during that time frame. Now, in Q2 - sorry, Q3, Q4 each year, we start determining what that budget is for the following year and some of that work and we need those work orders in the system. So when we're talking about a 20 week backlog, we have eight weeks of already pre-planned work dropping of the system, because we like to work eight weeks out in advance, and we have all this other major work or significant work sitting in the system that needs to be done during this period of time. The 20 weeks is made up of just the hours on all those work orders as a total number divided by our maintenance employees.

**** IVAN REGINALD MORRIS XXN MR HALE
PN1584

Okay. So that - - -?---Your statement around the schedules behind, is an incorrect statement.

PN1585

So you're saying that you're not behind in schedule on maintenance?---No, because we're scheduling into the future. We have a lot of work in the system that needs to be done and we need to schedule that into the future.

PN1586

And in fact if you didn't have any work in the schedule that needs to be done, then you'd have a bigger problem than you do when you've got some, wouldn't you?
---If we had no work?

PN1587

Yes?---I don't understand the significance of that.

PN1588

Well, there was evidence before, yesterday I think, that that scheduling has been reduced from 50 weeks down to 23 weeks or something like that, that's the back log?---That's the work in the system of the work list, yes.

PN1589

Right, okay. But you're saying that of that there's eight weeks that's in there anyway?---Yes. We work to an eight week - we always have eight weeks in advance from our master work order system, drops in works in there. That's a given. It happens all the time.

PN1590

So that if you have no back log you would have eight weeks?---If we - no, sorry.

PN1591

You've got - maybe if I could put it this way. You've always got to have something in there - - -?---You must always - if you want to maintain a maintenance work force, you must have a maintenance work list.

PN1592

Well, that's right, but in your case, that's eight weeks?---No. What I said was that it was a master work order system, that drops eight weeks in advance all the time.

PN1593

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So each week you have some maintenance work or planned maintenance work come on line, which has been planned - - -?---It just automatically drops into the system for us to do. And then, of course, we have any follow up work from PMs in the system or breakdown of jobs that need some priority in getting there ahead of some of the other work as well.

PN1594

MR HALE: So is there a back log?---There's a work list, yes.

**** IVAN REGINALD MORRIS XXN MR HALE
PN1595

But is it a critical back log that you need to - - -?---There are critical jobs in there that we need to do at a given time, yes.

PN1596

And is there anything stopping you from doing that?---I don't understand.

PN1597

Well, are there any impediments to you meeting those critical jobs? Are you having any problems performing your scheduled maintenance?---We, in some cases, where jobs need to go round the clock, yes, we send that off to contract.

PN1598

That's only because you don't have shift workers, isn't it?---That's right.

PN1599

You say at paragraph 9 that:

PN1600

Others in the work crew at the time the stable income plan was negotiated with each team.

PN1601

What work crew were you in at that time?---In 1993 I was transferred out of the production group when I was a foreman into the mechanical division work crew in its initial set up as the planner and scheduler, so during the negotiation stages of the stable income plans, I was their planner/scheduler.

PN1602

You were the planner/scheduler right at the very beginning?---Right at the very beginning.

PN1603

In the - - -?---And I was based in the metals division work crew and at that time I was scheduling for both the mechanical work crew, the electrical work crew and contractors for the work that the work crews couldn't complete.

PN1604

Okay, and that time you were scheduling for eight hours on a public holiday, a public holiday week?---No. That was my - no, I didn't say that. I had a - I would schedule based on the availability of the crew that particular week. I haven't said that I scheduled back then for an eight hour day.

PN1605

What did you schedule for?---Whatever the crew availability was.

PN1606

So if the crew were available for three 10s, you would schedule for three 10s?
---Based on - back then I don't know, we're asking - to think back - I would schedule for whatever the crew was working at that particular point in time.

**** IVAN REGINALD MORRIS XXN MR HALE
PN1607

Let's ask you that question, because in your witness statement it sounds like you were saying that people in that area did work four eight hour days, but you're not really saying that. You say, "It was my clear understanding at the time that during the public holiday week we were expected to work four eight hour days"?---That's correct, that was my understanding.

PN1608

What were people available for?---I don't know. I can't remember what I scheduled for back then.

PN1609

But you know what they were expected for?---Yes, eight hours, on a public holiday week. That was my understanding.

PN1610

But you don't know whether that was what they actually worked?---I can't recollect, no.

PN1611

So you don't keep any ongoing record of planned work from year to year?---I have records going back to 2000 of the hours that people have worked, yes.

PN1612

On a particular job?---On a particular day and the maintenance system from 1994 has a record of every job that an individual has done, providing that they have input labour hours into the system.

PN1613

Right. Isn't there also some record where you would be looking at, to fix this particular plant, last time it took them 80 hours, the time before it took them 76 hours?---Most definitely. Yes, we could look at that in the history records of the maintenance system, because we could bring up those work orders.

PN1614

That's what you've used as a fairly fundamental part of your plan, isn't it, that you would know to within a few hours either way what a particular job was likely to take with no mishaps?---Yes. It can be used as a guide and on occasions we have sent some work orders back to the liability group to say that this job was for eight hours and it was returned in four hours completed. Can you please review why? Is the scope adequate, are the hours correct, et cetera?

PN1615

There would also be the other direction as well, wouldn't there?---Most definitely. If it's come through as there's not enough time, yes, and there have been occasions where that has happened when I was scheduling late last year.

PN1616

Now, do you have many two hour jobs? At paragraph 12 you say:

**** IVAN REGINALD MORRIS XXN MR HALE
PN1617

Working four eight hour days during the public holiday gives me a lot more flexibility to ensure the maintenance work gets done.

PN1618

?---It does.

PN1619

Yes:

PN1620

If employees are working only two days during the public holiday week, I have to look for two hour jobs which they can complete after finishing their 10 hour jobs.

PN1621

?---That's right.

PN1622

That's when they're dealing with - - -?---In order to - - -

PN1623

No, dealing with the 12 hour day, is it?---That's right. When the working week is the 10, 10, 12, when you're trying to schedule the complete number of hours in the system, if you have a number of 10 hour jobs you then suddenly have to start looking into the system, well, what two hour job have I got available for this crew to do, and there aren't too many two hour jobs in the system.

PN1624

Right, but the reverse of that, because if you're looking for eight hour jobs, you schedule the 10s as 8s, and people are put under pressure to complete a 10 hour in an eight hour day?---And I think if I can relate back to - where I said before, work doesn't necessarily have to be completed in a - for the most part the work could be completed in an eight hour period. I have the strong belief that that is the case because of the inbuilt FAT into the system.

PN1625

Were you involved in any of the stable income plan at the garage?---No.

PN1626

Were you ever involved with the garage?---I was the - I had, I think, a three month stint as their supervisor and it was during the Christmas period, last year or the year before, and I had to call people on Christmas Day.

PN1627

You had to call people in on Christmas Day, but you were aware that they were rostered three 10s on public holiday weeks?---Yes.

PN1628

But - - -?---But could I expand that, please?

**** IVAN REGINALD MORRIS XXN MR HALE
PN1629

Yes?---The garage are - as everybody here now understands - is a unique group of people. They're covering the operations area seven days a week on day shift and to push them on to a five eight day would mean that the area would be vulnerable.

PN1630

Right, but you were never involved in any of the discussions or how that came about?---The 10 hours, no.

PN1631

When you were the supervisor?---Yes.

PN1632

How much hands on supervision did you need to do in the garage?---Very little.

PN1633

They were a self autonomous work group, weren't they?---Yes, and I would just trip down there on a daily basis and see how they were going and trip back and do the other tasks that I had to complete.

PN1634

I have no further questions.

PN1635

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Hale. Re-examination, Mr Ogilvie?

PN1636

MR OGILVIE: No, no questions, your Honour.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [1.06PM]

PN1637

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Ogilvie, we only have the one witness to go for you, is it, Mr Virtue?

PN1638

MR OGILVIE: Yes, that's right, your Honour. I just wanted to raise the issue about submissions. I haven't spoken to Mr Hale when he was talking about it last night, but the preference would be written submissions, but I hadn't raised that in the past.

PN1639

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Perhaps you could talk to Mr Hale over lunch and we'll see where we go after that.

PN1640

MR OGILVIE: Thank you.

PN1641

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I do have your outline of submissions and Mr Hale's outline of submissions that were filed prior to the beginning of the hearing.

PN1642

MR OGILVIE: My only concern I think was just to have access to some of the transcript.

PN1643

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I understand, and I'd probably be assisted by that too. It depends though on how urgent this thing is, I suppose. But anyway you have a talk to Mr Hale over the luncheon adjournment.

PN1644

MR OGILVIE: Thank you, your Honour.

PN1645

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, is it convenient if we come back at 2.30? It's not going to take all that long?

PN1646

MR OGILVIE: No.

PN1647

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, we'll adjourn for lunch.

<LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [1.07PM]
<RESUMED [2.29PM]

PN1648

MR OGILVIE: Alcoa calls its final witness which is Mr Brian Virtue.

<BRIAN ROSS VIRTUE, SWORN
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR OGILVIE

PN1649

MR OGILVIE: Mr Virtue, have you prepared a witness statement for the purposes of today's hearing?---Yes, I have.

PN1650

Have you had the chance to look through that witness statement recently?---Yes.

PN1651

Is that witness statement true and correct?---Yes.

PN1652

I seek to tender that statement, your Honour.

EXHIBIT #ALCOA5 STATEMENT OF BRIAN VIRTUE

PN1653

MR OGILVIE: Can I just ask you a question about, around the time when the SIP agreements were introduced. What was your role at that time?---I was human resources officer and not directly involved with the negotiation, but at arm's length with it.

PN1654

So what involvement did you have?---I had some responsibility for implementing some of the outcomes around the pay and roster side of it.

PN1655

Did you have any in put into the way they were drafted or wording those documents?---Not directly.

PN1656

Did you have indirect involvement?---Yes.

PN1657

In what way?---I reported to the HR manager who did most of the work and there was, I guess, ongoing interaction between the two of us on some of those matters.

PN1658

Given that background are you able to explain why there was no detail in those SIP agreements about how public holiday weeks were to be worked?---Yes. I think I can, but it's almost - it's a bit of a perception as well, but there was a deliberate attempt to not make the SIP agreements overly prescriptive. One of the objectives out of this program that was happening around re-design and everything at that time was to come up with a seamless organisation that was not staff and wages. It was to come up with one employee group and there was a view that keeping things fairly loose and ambiguous was a means of trying to get there rather than the highly prescriptive conditions that previously existed.

**** BRIAN ROSS VIRTUE XN MR OGILVIE
PN1659

I've just got one further question about the SIP agreements. There's been some questions asked, I think, of the last witness from Alcoa about the four by 10 hour system and what was in it for Alcoa in introducing the four by 10 hour system?
---The push for the four by 10 basically come from the employees themselves who saw the benefits experienced by the production areas that went to continuous 12 hour rosters and so I guess they wanted some of that benefit around increased leisure time as well. So the approach come for four 10s and was duly considered and there was a view that in agreeing to it that it would increase the levels of employee engagement and lead to productivity improvements from that. There was a view that - well, obviously it was going to - as part of the overall SIP program it was also going to reduce the overtime costs and with the four 10s approach there was a view that it could - or that it should potentially lead to lower levels of absenteeism.

PN1660

Was there production, apart from, I suppose - you said something about efficiency. Were there production benefits for Alcoa in four 10s?---From the production - - -

PN1661

Sorry. Was there operational benefits - perhaps production is not quite the right word - but operational benefits for Alcoa with the four 10s for the maintenance crews?---Not significant ones. I can't say that there were none, but most of the benefit that the company saw was just in trying to obtain that improved employee engagement.

PN1662

No further questions.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HALE [2.34PM]

PN1663

MR HALE: Just in relation to that last question you answered about the operational benefits for Alcoa and the four 10. Have you had production experience, would you be in a position to be able to make that judgment?---To some extent. Not as well as some people might, but that's not just my judgment either. It was an acknowledged potential outcome of this whole exercise by the whole management group.

PN1664

So if you could get those 10 hour days for the planned worked over eight hours, that would be a significant production increase, wouldn't it?---If we could get those 10 hours work planned - - -

PN1665

There would be 10 hour days worked within eight hours, that would be a significant production increase, wouldn't it?---You'd have to say it was.

**** BRIAN ROSS VIRTUE XXN MR HALE
PN1666

And it would also be moving away from the principles that were espoused in the SIPs agreement, wouldn't it?---I don't understand how it would be a move away.

PN1667

Well, maybe if we can go to your attachment and I think it's BV1 where you outline all of those guidelines as to the stable income plans. What's recommended to be put in place, I guess the way in which the SIPs were intended to operate. If I take you to the one entitled Guidelines, it's got page 38 on a fax thing at the top of it, which may not help you. It might have been because Freehills faxed it to me, but it's got page 38 on it. It's called Stable Income Plan Guidelines and it's the first page. There's two pages of it. It's about a third of the way through the document, I suppose, have you found it?---I've got it.

PN1668

Yes. With those guidelines that was what I suppose was being put out as being the benefits to the company and the benefits to the workers from moving to a SIPs program, was it?---Well, they're some of the benefits but I think I'd suggest that most of them were benefits to the employee, the weighting of these benefits certainly seems to lean towards the employee.

PN1669

So you saw the introduction of SIPs as being an employee benefit rather than a benefit for the company?---Not at all.

PN1670

No?---There were benefits to both parties, but I guess I’m responding to the particular guidelines that you've highlighted here and most of them are employee type benefits.

PN1671

What, meal allowance, shower and travel time to be eliminated, is that an employee benefit?---Well, they were eliminated but provision for them was rolled into the annualised salary.

PN1672

Yes, and part of it was, wasn't it, that it would be the removal of an overtime component, that component would be put in to the annualised salary?---Yes.

PN1673

So then over time with the erosion of the real increases in wages, that could be lost, couldn't it?---Well, if there was any real erosion of wages, but I don't believe there's any evidence of that.

PN1674

I think one of the witnesses for Alcoa said that there was a decrease or part of this trouble started as a result of the 2000-2001 agreement not delivering the wage increases that were expected by the employees?---That was my statement, yes.

**** BRIAN ROSS VIRTUE XXN MR HALE
PN1675

That's in your statement, is it? So that whether there was real or perceived, in your statement there was a perception that there was a decrease in the remuneration for the selling off of those conditions?---That was the initial basis to some difficulties associated with renewing the 2000 EBA, but we negotiated out way out of by increasing the increases.

PN1676

Well, perhaps have a look at what you did say. Yes, you say in your last paragraph, when you're referring to the lack of supervision you say:

PN1677

I believe that this situation was exacerbated by difficult enterprise agreement negotiations in 2000 and the annual wage increase in 2000 being below employee expectations.

PN1678

So when did you renegotiate and increase them?---The increase that was initially granted with that EBA renewal did not measure up to employee expectations and over a fairly protracted period of about five or six months a number of changes were made to improve it and I'm expressing a view here that the employee/employer relationship suffered as a result of that experience over those five or six months.

PN1679

When you say the increase was granted, was it the increase that was agreed to or the company's proposal?---It was the company proposal.

PN1680

So the company proposal wasn't accepted by the employees, they rejected it and that led to negotiations going over some five months or something, was it?---Yes.

PN1681

Do you say the annual wage increase in 2000 being below employee expectations, that's different to the offer being below employee expectations?---The bit that perhaps you're not familiar with here is the salary arrangement that come as part and parcel of the SIP program was one whereby automatic salary increases were processed each year rather than negotiated salary increases. So the automatic salary increase of 2000 that was to automatically be handed down, I guess was refuted by the - or during the EBA process.

PN1682

So there was some sort of a KPI or something, was there, built into the system, was there, or - - -?---Effectively, yes.

PN1683

And the productivity that was expected didn't deliver?---Perhaps it's not right to call it a KPI, but a number of factors were taken into account to determine the appropriate salary increase for each year. The increase that come out of that process for 2000 was not well accepted.

**** BRIAN ROSS VIRTUE XXN MR HALE
PN1684

So there was a renegotiation of the agreement and that led to a new agreement?
---It led to an EBA renewal with an increased, a slightly increased - or a slight increase over what was originally offered for the year 2000.

PN1685

So was there a renewal of the agreement at that time?---There was a renewal of the agreement around June 2000.

PN1686

So that was a renewal of the agreement, not a revisiting of something that was automatically going to progress from the previous agreement?---Yes, you could say that.

PN1687

So there was a log of claims, there were negotiations and that resulted in a new agreement?---Yes.

PN1688

And the expectations of the employees in relation to the remuneration was greater than what was offered?---Yes.

PN1689

And was it greater than what was achieved?---Eventually, yes, coupled with some overall adjustments of the structure of a couple of the components that make up the total salary.

PN1690

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I'm not sure I follow where we're going with this, Mr Hale. I don't wish to cut you off. I just can't understand how it's related to what I'm - - -

PN1691

MR HALE: Where I started, your Honour, was in relation to the productivity increases arising from giving people 10 hours work to do in eight hours and in conjunction with that, where conditions are converted in to a dollar amount, then dollars can be eroded, minutes can't and that's where I was trying to go when I guess I got sidetracked.

PN1692

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right.

PN1693

MR HALE: So would you agree with me that conditions such as wash up time, such as meal moneys when they're converted into a monetary amount can be eroded by inflation or any other of the erosions on dollars?---No, not at all.

PN1694

Why would you say no, not at all?---Well, they would only be eroded if the ongoing rate of salary increase was less than what was happening with CPI and other measures.

**** BRIAN ROSS VIRTUE XXN MR HALE
PN1695

Or people's expectations in relation to negotiations?---That's part and parcel.

PN1696

So do you believe that Alcoa has continued their part of the bargain from the SIPs?---Yes. For me there's no evidence that Alcoa as the employer has failed to meet their obligations under SIP.

PN1697

So wasn't one of the obligations under SIPs to reduce supervisory levels?---Yes.

PN1698

And Alcoa initially did that, didn't they?---Yes.

PN1699

Now, haven't they returned supervisors to a more hands on role?---Yes, in a number of areas they have, yes.

PN1700

So in that aspect is Alcoa's role in that SIPs agreement been upheld?---Well, I think it's debateable as to who has failed to uphold the commitment. I think there's an equal argument to say that perhaps employees have failed to embrace self direction as much as the original SIP plan planned for.

PN1701

So you'd say that the difficulty is actually with the employees not embracing self direction?---Not necessarily in isolation. I think it's a very complicated question to answer, that it's one party or the other.

PN1702

So would you see the experiment as having failed?---Not failed but it probably didn't maintain some of the benefits that were first emerging in its first five or six years.

PN1703

Was it a question of maintaining benefits or was it a question of the need to constantly increase your productivity?---Continuous improvement is a recognised part of Alcoa's operating strategy, but it's only done in a - it's only carried out where it's practical and fair and equitable to all.

PN1704

When you were the HR officer, did you have any involvement in the garage agreement?---No direct involvement in negotiating or anything like that, but I was aware of its existence.

PN1705

Were you aware that it provided for three 10 hour days when a public holiday falls?---Look, I can't say I did or I didn't, but I'm aware that some of the conditions of the garage agreement were very, very different to what was happening in a number of other areas.

**** BRIAN ROSS VIRTUE XXN MR HALE
PN1706

But if there had been a formal structured agreement negotiated, would HR have had any involvement in that?---Very much.

PN1707

How many people were working in the HR?---A lot, you know, perhaps a dozen people. I can't tell you precisely, but several people, in the mid '90s the HR department was quite extensive.

PN1708

So there was the HR manager and a number of HR officers?---Yes.

PN1709

So it could well have been another HR officer that was involved in that?
---Certainly.

PN1710

And you wouldn't have known?---Perhaps.

PN1711

What was happening?---Yes, perhaps.

PN1712

So it is possible that there was a structured negotiated agreement put in place at that time and you would know nothing about it?---Yes.

PN1713

And is that the case, you do know nothing about it?---No, it's not that I know nothing about it, but I'm not going to lay claim to knowing everything about the practices to the garage.

PN1714

No, but do you know that a structured formal agreement was negotiated at that time in relation to the garage? I'm not talking about their SIPs agreement. I'm talking about an additional agreement?---No. I'm not aware of that. I'm aware that the garage was one of the very early maintenance departments to pick up SIP, but I'm not aware of there being a program other than what is documented before us.

PN1715

Now, in all the documents that you put forward, there's no suggestion of there being four eight hour days worked when a public holiday falls, is that correct?
---Yes, that's correct.

PN1716

I think you said the reason for that was you didn't want to be too prescriptive?
---Mm.

PN1717

Is that another way of saying that you wanted the teams to be able to determine those things for themselves?---Well, your words, not mine, but it is true to say that we wanted the teams to be able to change their hours to meet whatever hours were necessary to meet the business needs and if that meant working three 10s, three 12s or four 8s, or whatever it may be, then that would be accepted.

**** BRIAN ROSS VIRTUE XXN MR HALE
PN1718

And it was never prescribed that, no matter what other arrangement you have during the week in which public holiday falls, you will work four 8s?---I'm unaware of anything that exists.

PN1719

And in fact that would go against the whole grain of the autonomous work teams, wouldn't it?---Well, I'm not sure we can say that because I think it's - in retrospect it would have been ideal, more ideal to have more prescription around some of those areas because I think, with the benefit of hindsight now, we have seen occasions when employees did not necessarily always put their own needs ahead of the business of vice versa.

PN1720

If you go over the page to where I took you last time, we were talking about the items to be developed. One of the items there is to flex hours for day workers. So you're actually looking at trying to build flex hours in, aren't you?---I'm not sure what that means off the top of my head. Is this under those guidelines?

PN1721

It's the stable income plan, items to be developed, it's the page after the guidelines finish, I think?---The fifth one down, flexible hours for day workers.

PN1722

Yes, flex hours for day workers?---Look, I'm not sure exactly what that was meant to mean.

PN1723

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Was this a presentation, was it, Mr Virtue?---Pardon?

PN1724

This document attached to your witness statement, exhibited to your witness statement?---Yes.

PN1725

As BV1, was that a presentation that was being given for the introduction of SIPs or - - -?---It was essentially a presentation that was made in the early stages of SIP usually for the benefit of external parties who were keen to come in and see what Alcoa was doing with maintenance restructuring.

PN1726

Yes, thank you.

PN1727

MR HALE: So it wouldn't reflect what the employees understood SIPs to mean?
---Well, it won't be too far removed, but I can't guarantee that every one of these conditions applies.

**** BRIAN ROSS VIRTUE XXN MR HALE
PN1728

Okay?---Yes, for instance the third one down, method of adjusting past leave to be cost mutual, the original intent was to keep it cost mutual but it was determined that the administrative effort in doing that was just cost prohibitive, so it was abandoned.

PN1729

So leave that had accrued at the non weighted rate?---At the weighted rate. It was accrued at the weighted rate.

PN1730

The weighted rate came - it was paid at the weighted rate, accrued at the non weighted rate, wasn't it?---No, both. Both were accrued at the weighted rate. The original intend was to accrue it - was to maintain past leave accruals at the unweighted rate.

PN1731

Yes?---It proved to be administratively unachievable and it was conceded that all past leave would be paid at the weighted rate.

PN1732

Yes, and that's what I was asking?---It didn't sound like it, I'm sorry.

PN1733

Now, you currently work down at Anglesea, do you?---Yes.

PN1734

What's the situation there when a public holiday falls with the 10 hour workers?
---They revert to three 10s.

PN1735

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: How many days annual leave or how many weeks annual leave is currently at Point Henry?---Four weeks annual leave for non continuous shift workers. 160 hours per annum.

PN1736

MR HALE: Now, at paragraph 9 of your statement you say:

PN1737

The progressive introduction of autonomous work crews commencing in 1989 led to dramatic improvements in productivity. However, further improvements were necessary and it became clear that the most significant barriers to further improvements was employee earnings. Employees did not want to move away from a method of payment involving paid overtime as most considered that such a change would reduce their overall earnings capacity.

PN1738

If the impediment to improvements is employee earnings, then isn't reducing the employee earnings the intent of the schemed that you were putting in place?
---What I'm trying to state there is that the level of improvement throughout the late '80s, early '90s levelled out to a point where - well, it just levelled out and various surveys and whatever confirmed that the reason it had levelled out was people were nervous that any further improvements were going to affect their earnings capacity because they were working fairly significant levels of overtime. And so the philosophy of SIP was to strike a certain amount of overtime that would go into the annualised salary, whether it was worked or not, and so the people would have the guarantee of knowing that there was a set amount of overtime in their pay 52 weeks of the year.

**** BRIAN ROSS VIRTUE XXN MR HALE
PN1739

So that if they worked harder, they could go home at the same time and still have that level of income?---Not to the point where they could go home before the needs of the business were met.

PN1740

No, but if there were a job that was previously taking them 12 hours and they could complete it in 10, then they wouldn't get the two hours overtime, but they wouldn't work for two hours overtime and they would get paid a component of their pay taken into account?---No. There was never any expectation that they would do anything less than their stipulated 40 hour minimum.

PN1741

And I didn't suggest that. What I said was that - and tell me if this is right - is that if they can perform a job which was previously done in 12 hours, that is now being planned as a 10 hour job, within 10 hours, then they can go home at the end of that 10 hours, they won't have to work any additional time and they will get additional money because of the fact that that overtime component has been worked into their annualised salary. Is that right?---That's true.

PN1742

So that the company's productivity increases were by getting jobs done that didn't require overtime to be paid on each job, there would be just converted into that component?---Correct.

PN1743

So if that 10 hour is now able to be converted to an eight hour, there will be significant increases in productivity, wouldn't there?---If that was achievable there would.

PN1744

Yes. You say:

PN1745

In the early '90s when alternative rostering arrangements and the move to annualised salaries were being considered, Alcoa management stipulated that any new arrangement introduced had to increase productivity in a way which was cost neutral.

PN1746

That's at 17 of your statement?---Yes.

PN1747

Then you talk about cost neutrality with continuous shift workers?---Where would you like me to start?

PN1748

No, no, I said, then you do?---Sorry.

**** BRIAN ROSS VIRTUE XXN MR HALE
PN1749

Then on 19 you move on to non continuous shift workers. It's the non continuous shift workers that we're talking about, and you say:

PN1750

Ensuring cost neutrality was also the reason that the non continuous shift workers were required to work four eight hour days in a public holiday week.

PN1751

Now, in the questioning before you said that that wasn't a stipulation, didn't you?
---No. What I said before was that I agreed with you that nowhere in the SIP documentation was it captured.

PN1752

So that you do think that it was a stipulation, that there was to be in each SIP a requirement that the four eight hour days when the public holidays were, is that what you're saying?---What I'm saying is that there was an expectation that changes to work hours through alternative rosters be achieved in a cost neutral manner.

PN1753

Well, did you say that?---Well, if I didn't, that's the intent.

PN1754

Didn't you say that to meet the business needs, didn't you say that the autonomous work groups could pretty well determine their own hours providing they met the business needs?---And it remain - and there were no additional costs, so I'm adding that as a second proviso.

PN1755

And that there were no additional costs. You say:

PN1756

Alcoa's payroll system, which was already in place at the time that annualised salaries were introduced and which has since been updated, reflected this.

PN1757

This is in 21?---Yes.

PN1758

When was it updated?---There were in fact two updates. There was an update from an early system around 1988/89 which was in place for about four years and it was replaced in about - sorry, I've got those dates wrong. It was - there was a system in place up until about '98/99. It was replaced by another system that was in for three, maybe four years and was then replaced by an Oracle system in 2003.

PN1759

So in 2003 where were you, were you down at Anglesea by then, or were you still at - - -?---Yes.

PN1760

So you were down at Anglesea by then?---Mm.

**** BRIAN ROSS VIRTUE XXN MR HALE
PN1761

Was Anglesea's computer adjusted to deal with eight hour days?---Yes.

PN1762

Why would that be? You've told us they worked 10s?---Because we were challenging it.

PN1763

So you were challenging it down there then?---Mm.

PN1764

And what did challenging it mean?---Well, challenging it meant that we raised it and discussed it, or consulted the union representatives on it in our consultative committee on a number of occasions and one of their complaints was that the system was not recognising their three 10s, that it was insisting on for 8s and we were reducing the change to four 8s. So that if someone took a week of holiday over a public holiday week, they were in fact being debited 32 hours and they were arguing that it should have been 30.

PN1765

Despite the fact that the three 10s were recognised and accepted on the sup?---The acceptance bit, I guess I'm not agreeing with because it was an issue that we had raised as being one that was unacceptable for the longer term and we needed to do something about it.

PN1766

That was in 2001?---Yes, as early as that.

PN1767

But nothing changed?---To date, no.

PN1768

And you'd spoken to the HR at Point Henry and they said the same thing was happening there, didn't they?---When I first went to Anglesea I observed what was happening in the public holiday weeks. I discussed it with a colleague at Point Henry and it shared a concern that there was evidence of it creeping in there as well and I guess it was earmarked as something that we needed to try and address at some point.

PN1769

Five years' time?---I guess, can't fix everything at once.

PN1770

55 public holidays later?---Not happy about it.

PN1771

So you didn't see that as condoning it?---To a degree it is, but we had at least indicated to the union reps that this was a practice that was not acceptable, that it was not consistent with the SIP principles that we wanted to address.

**** BRIAN ROSS VIRTUE XXN MR HALE
PN1772

So are you looking at this hearing as a precedent to change Anglesea?---That's likely.

PN1773

And how long has the practice been at Anglesea?---Seemingly from the commencement of SIP.

PN1774

And yet you'd tell us that that wasn't the principle of SIP?---Correct. It was happening in isolation at Anglesea for some years before it became evident to people who'd had more involvement with the bigger SIP picture.

PN1775

So have the Anglesea records been changed to reflect 10s?

PN1776

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: To reflect what, sorry?

PN1777

MR HALE: To accept the 10 hour days on the public holiday - - -?---No. I already indicated that the rosters, call them up for four 8s.

PN1778

So even now if an employee is to take a sick day, even though they're working 10s, if an employee is to take a sick day on one of those public holidays, they only get docked eight?---Yes.

PN1779

That's been going on for five years?---Mm.

PN1780

So they only lose eight hours off their sick pay accrual?---Yes.

PN1781

Okay.

PN1782

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What, do they get paid for 10 hours then?---They still get paid for 10.

PN1783

Paid for 10 and docked eight?---Mm.

PN1784

MR HALE: Okay. But if they take annual leave they only get paid eight?
---They get paid 10. If they take one day, they'll get paid 10 hours and debited eight. If they take a week, they'll get debited 32 for taking, in their eyes, 30. Our view is that overall it balances out. But it's a view that we realise we still need to address.

PN1785

I won't go down that rabbit hole.

**** BRIAN ROSS VIRTUE XXN MR HALE
PN1786

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I'm pleased about that, Mr Hale.

PN1787

MR HALE: Now, in 23 you say:

PN1788

Most maintenance equipment managers who were responsible for coordinating the maintenance work on the equipment to which they were responsible worked eight hours a day over five days.

PN1789

Now, I think you are talking about at Point Henry there, are you?---Yes.

PN1790

So how many maintenance equipment managers did that?---Look, I don't know exactly. I know that the number of - the original number of equipment managers at Point Henry was roughly 30 and by no means were all of them working five 8s, but I'm aware that a significant number of them were.

PN1791

So you don't know how many, but you reckon it's most?---Yes.

PN1792

I have no further questions.

PN1793

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Mr Hale. I've just got a couple of questions I wanted to ask Mr Virtue. The exhibit BV1 attached to your statement, Mr Hale took you to those pages that are headed Guidelines. Were these the guidelines that were used in the teams that were developing the SIPs, are these the guidelines they were to go by?---Your Honour, I can't give you a guarantee that these very formats were used, but a lot of the terminology is the same, yes. But the purpose of this particular presentation was more for other company representatives coming in to talk about the change that we'd introduced. But most of the material is drawn from the original presentation to crews.

PN1794

The other thing I wanted to ask you about was the central maintenance department, 156, fleet management agreement, I'll perhaps get my associate to just pass this document over to you, where it talks about the SIP management rates or the SIP rates, you see there it says "no public holidays"?---Yes.

PN1795

I haven't been able to identify in any of the other SIP agreements or plans the same notation, and if you turn over you'll see about taking days in lieu or time in lieu for public holidays. Do you know why that was included in that agreement and not included in the other SIP financials?---Directly, no, I don't, but I can only make the assumption that the demands on the garage for maintenance of mobile equipment would have had a more frequent call than some of the other departments.

**** BRIAN ROSS VIRTUE XXN MR HALE
PN1796

For public holidays?---For seven day coverage.

PN1797

Yes, for seven day coverage, but including public holidays?---Yes, and that practice of building a component in for working those sorts of days is a fairly common one that extends to the Anglesea plant as well. They may be, for instance, called in to work on a public holiday and the Anglesea rate is viewed as having the appropriate penalties in there for working that public holiday. Then they take a day off in lieu at a later date for having worked that public holiday.

PN1798

All right. Yes, Mr Ogilvie, any re-examination?

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR OGILVIE [3.15PM]

PN1799

MR OGILVIE: Do you remember you were asked some questions about clause 27 of your statement and the questions, I think, were about erosion of dollars, do you remember those questions?---Yes.

PN1800

When the employees, from your knowledge, when the employees went on to the SIP agreements, were there pay increases associated with going on to the SIP agreements?---Very significant increases.

PN1801

What do you mean by very significant?---There were increases that - the original SIP agreement - the original SIP rate, I'm sorry, had three components to it. In going on to SIP at the very first stage there were increases made to the base rate and then over the next 12 and 24 months there were further improvements made whereby some of those other allowances were rolled into the base and so over a very short period the base increased by something in the order of 30 and 40 per cent which in turn provided some fairly significant improvements to things like superannuation benefits.

PN1802

You were asked about the 2000 agreement negotiations. Did the 2000 agreement have prescribed salary increases, prescribed annual salary increases in it?---No.

PN1803

Did the previous - - -?---No.

PN1804

Where did the employees get their salary increases from?---The salary - part of the agreement was that the annual salary increase was determined by the internal Alcoa Salary Management Program.

PN1805

And I think there's a new agreement that applies to Alcoa and Anglesea, that had prescribed increases?---It has prescribed increases.

**** BRIAN ROSS VIRTUE RXN MR OGILVIE
PN1806

No further questions, your Honour.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [3.17PM]

PN1807

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Did you have an opportunity to discuss with Mr Hale the arrangements for - - -

PN1808

MR OGILVIE: Yes, your Honour. I think there's consensus between us that we would prefer the opportunity to file written submissions and have access to the transcript to do that.

PN1809

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN1810

MR OGILVIE: The time frame which we discussed, there's no immediate urgency for this matter other than the next public holiday arises in - I think it's the Geelong Show Day in October. So I mean, in terms of an end date for this process being finished, September is the appropriate time. I think the position that we got to was that we'll probably need about three weeks to prepare written submissions and I think that we probably don't need to have our process - I think we can both file them at the same time. It's pretty clear from the outlines filed what both parties' arguments are. So what we'd propose was written submissions to be filed within three weeks, probably from the availability of the transcript might influence that, but three weeks from this Monday is probably a fair - - -

PN1811

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: From next Monday you mean?

PN1812

MR OGILVIE: From next Monday.

PN1813

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN1814

MR OGILVIE: So if that's appropriate, your Honour, I think that's agreed between us.

PN1815

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is that right, Mr Hale?

PN1816

MR HALE: That is correct, your Honour.

PN1817

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. So if we say each party file and serve for written submissions on or before 14 August and it would assist me in fact if we do list half a day to speak to them so that I can ask any questions or allay any concerns or confusions I might have as a result of questions I might have.

PN1818

MR OGILVIE: Yes, your Honour, we're happy with that course.

PN1819

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. So we'll find a date after 14 August and list half a day. Thank you. Nothing else?

PN1820

MR OGILVIE: No, your Honour.

PN1821

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The matter is adjourned.

<ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [3.20PM]

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

ROBERT HOLLAND, SWORN PN1071
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR OGILVIE PN1071
EXHIBIT #ALCOA2 STATEMENT OF ROBERT HOLLAND PN1079
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HALE PN1110
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN1343
ERNIE GOSIER, SWORN PN1346
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR OGILVIE PN1346
EXHIBIT #ALCOA3 STATEMENT OF ERNIE GOSIER PN1356
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HALE PN1375
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN1473
IVAN REGINALD MORRIS, SWORN PN1473
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR OGILVIE PN1473
EXHIBIT #ALCOA4 STATEMENT OF IVAN MORRIS PN1493
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HALE PN1493
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN1636
BRIAN ROSS VIRTUE, SWORN PN1648
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR OGILVIE PN1648
EXHIBIT #ALCOA5 STATEMENT OF BRIAN VIRTUE PN1652
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HALE PN1662
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR OGILVIE PN1798
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN1806