C2006/2641, Transcript of Proceedings [2006] AIRCTrans 997 (22 August 2006)

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

---

Workplace Relations Act 1996 15534-1

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT KAUFMAN

C2006/2641

NATIONAL TERTIARY EDUCATION INDUSTRY UNION
AND
VICTORIA UNIVERSITY
s.170LW pre-reform Act - Appl’n for settlement of dispute (certified agreement)
(C2006/2641)

MELBOURNE

10.12AM, TUESDAY, 08 AUGUST 2006

Continued from 7/8/2006

Hearing continuing

PN719

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You're ready to commence cross-examination, Mr O'Grady, are you?

PN720

MR O'GRADY: I am, your Honour. Before I do that can I mention a preliminary matter with respect to programming of the case?

PN721

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN722

MR O'GRADY: And I've discussed this with Mr Thomas. I'm currently involved in a case that was adjourned until 4 o'clock this afternoon before Commissioner Eames. It's a 496 application where an interim order was made on Thursday and it was adjourned for final hearing this afternoon at 4 o'clock. Inquiries were made of the Commissioner's associate as to whether that could be pushed back until 4.30 this afternoon. Apparently that can't be done. In those circumstances I was going to ask your Honour whether it would be convenient if this matter was adjourned at say five to four so that I could attend at that hearing.

PN723

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Does the union have any problem with that?

PN724

MR THOMAS: None at all with us, your Honour.

PN725

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. Well, we'll sit until five to four tonight.

PN726

MR O'GRADY: Yes, thank you, your Honour.

PN727

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Thomas, do you want to say something?

PN728

MR THOMAS: Yes, your Honour, just for the Commission a change in appearances to day. Mr Cullinan has another matter, a pressing matter this morning and can't be here so appearing for the NTEU would be
MS C DANAHER.

PN729

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Now, can we resume with Dr Doughney? Thank you.

<JAMES RICHARD, RECALLED ON FORMER OATH [10.14AM]
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR O'GRADY

PN730

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr O'Grady.

PN731

MR O'GRADY: Yes, thank you, your Honour.

PN732

Dr Doughney, you're currently the President of the Victoria University branch of the NTEU?---Yes, I am.

PN733

And you were the lead negotiator in the negotiations for the current certified agreement that governs academic staff at the university?---Yes, I was.

PN734

And you're also a member of the university's resources committee?---Indeed I am.

PN735

And you were a member of the interim workplace consultative committee?
---Correct.

PN736

Now, you've filed a statement in reply in these proceedings?---That's correct, yes.

PN737

And is it the case that where you take issue with particular matters that are raised in the statements filed on behalf of the university you have dealt with those matters in your statement filed in reply?---That's correct.

PN738

All right. Now, in paragraph 17 of your statement filed in reply, do you have that statement before you, Dr Doughney?---Yes, I do, Mr O'Grady.

PN739

You say:

PN740

If the university were to pursue natural attrition more rigorously by, for example, imposing an employment freeze - - -

PN741

?---Sorry, this is not the statement in reply.

PN742

I apologise, I'm reading from the wrong date?---The original statement.

PN743

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It's certainly not paragraph 17.

PN744

MR O'GRADY: Sorry, no, I apologise. I was reading from the original statement and I meant to read from the statement in reply?---Sorry.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN745

Sorry. Paragraph 17 is in these terms as I understand it, Dr Doughney:

PN746

At PN10 Ms Thomas recites details of a conversation between herself and
Mr David Nicholson concerning WRP. I do not recall the precise details of the conversation between myself and Mr Nicholson but I do recall talking to him about the dynamics unleashed by offers of voluntary departures and potential redundancy. My sole objective has been to limit the extent of voluntary and for separations as I believe and have written that the university has manufactured the separation process unnecessarily.

PN747

Now, is that your current position, Dr Doughney?---Yes, it is, yes.

PN748

So this is not a case that's confined to the institution of compulsory redundancies, your position is that there shouldn't be neither compulsory redundancies nor voluntary separations?---Your sentence had two parts to it, Mr O'Grady.

PN749

Yes?---The first part said this is not a case related, et cetera. This is a case related to involuntary and forced redundancy. That's where we believe in bringing this matter before the Commission that the enterprise bargaining process has not been - or that the enterprise bargaining agreement has not been faithfully pursued by the university. AS to the rest of what is called the workforce renewal project, as it says here, I have written and have stated that I think that the whole process is unnecessary. That's a position that I've presented to the university council, to the resources committee of the council and to the university community and it was the matter that I was examined on by Mr Thomas yesterday.

PN750

I see, so I'll rephrase the question. Your position isn't confined to opposition to compulsory redundancies, it extends to both voluntary separations and involuntary separations?---I'll repeat my answer, Mr O'Grady.

PN751

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, don't repeat your answer, answer the question?---Could you ask the question again?

PN752

MR O'GRADY: Your position is not confined to opposition to compulsory redundancies but extends to opposition to voluntary separations?---I have said, and I'll make this very clear, that - - -

PN753

Dr Doughney, did you understand the question?

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN754

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Dr Doughney, the question is susceptible to a very simple answer. Are you opposed to voluntary redundancies?---No, I haven't - see, this is where the question needs to be clearer. I haven't been opposed to voluntary redundancies. What I have said is precisely what I've said there, that the separation process is unnecessary for the university. We have not as a union, nor myself as an individual, objected to individuals availing themselves of voluntary separation. There is a distinction and the distinction is important to make.

PN755

MR O'GRADY: And I'm trying to understand exactly what your position,
Dr Doughney, is. Do you approve of the workforce renewal project being pursued through voluntary separations?

PN756

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, before the witness answers that, Mr O'Grady, what interest is it to me in determining this matter of whether or not Dr Doughney approves or doesn't approve of the process?

PN757

MR O'GRADY: It goes to the weight that the Commission should give his weight. Dr Doughney's position in my submission is one of opposition to the workforce renewal project per se whether it be - - -

PN758

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And you say that colours the entire evidence?

PN759

MR O'GRADY: Indeed, it does.

PN760

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just bear with me a moment, please. We'll just go off the record.

<OFF THE RECORD

PN761

MR O'GRADY: Dr Doughney, coming back to my question, do you approve of the workforce renewal project even if it were confined to separations based on voluntary departures?

PN762

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, could you repeat that,
Mr O'Grady?

PN763

MR O'GRADY: Would you approve of the workforce renewal project even if it were confined to voluntary separations?

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN764

MR THOMAS: Is it proper to ask Dr Doughney whether he approves? I'm not sure - - -

PN765

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I've just dealt with that and I understand the reason for it and I've allowed the question?---I think the workforce renewal process as a whole was sloppily conceived and badly implemented. It doesn't mean that in my role as the president of the union branch I have opposed the voluntary separation process. What I have opposed and done so clearly and brought it to the Commission is the move within the workforce renewal project to forced redundancies. That is the matter of my dispute. I don't have matter about the application of the agreement to the voluntary separation process. This matter specifically is about the proper application of the agreement to the matter of forced redundancies.

PN766

Yes. See, I put it to you, Dr Doughney, that you have discouraged persons from taking up voluntarily separation as part of the workforce renewal process?

PN767

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Was that a person or persons?

PN768

MR O'GRADY: Persons.

PN769

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Persons?---I have not discouraged anyone from taking up voluntary separations under the workforce renewal banner. What I have done is argue that the workforce renewal project from the start was basically a hair brained idea that was done on the basis of - - -

PN770

Dr Doughney, Dr Doughney, you answered the question you have no encouraged anybody not to take it up?---Okay.

PN771

End of answer.

PN772

MR O'GRADY: Now, you were involved in the negotiation of the current enterprise agreement?---Yes, as lead negotiator I was.

PN773

And in paragraph - sorry, I'll rephrase that. You're aware that Ms Thomas has given evidence about a conversation between yourself and Mr Nicholson concerning clause 11?---Sorry, Mr O'Grady?

PN774

You are aware, or are you aware that Ms Thomas has given evidence in her witness statement about a conversation between yourself and Mr Nicholson regarding clause 11 of the enterprise agreement?---No, no, she hasn't,
Mr O'Grady. I think you'll find that Ms Thomas has given evidence regarding clause 11 related to the exchanges that took place during the enterprise bargaining process. Separately she has given evidence concerning a conversation between myself and Mr Nicholson concerning the objectives of the workforce renewal project.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN775

Could you turn to paragraph 49 of Ms Thomas' statement, do you have that there?---I do somewhere, just bear with me.

PN776

We have a copy of that here if it's of assistance?---Yes, look, it might be easier if handed that up.

PN777

If it's convenient to hand up a folder of material to the witness just to help him.

PN778

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes?---Sorry, which paragraph?

PN779

MR O'GRADY: Paragraph 49, please, Dr Doughney. Now, Mr Nicholson was part of the negotiating team on the enterprise agreement, wasn't he?---Yes, he was.

PN780

And do you accept what Ms Thomas says in paragraph 49 that you agreed that clause 11 would be aspirational?---Not in its strict terms that you've presented.

PN781

All right. Ms Thomas will give evidence along the lines that you indicated to
Mr Nicholson that clause 11.3 would not impose substantive obligations and you used language along the lines of it's only an intent clause, what are you worried about. Do you accept that you used that sort of language?---It's a phrase I cannot recall.

PN782

So you don't dispute that you might have said that?---I don't dispute that I might have said that.

PN783

Now, are you familiar with the documentation that was distributed to staff at the university prior to voting on the ballot?---I was reminded of that at yesterday's discussions, yes.

PN784

Could you turn to behind tab 1, exhibit VU2?---Yes.

PN785

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, I'm not sure which document you're talking about, Mr O'Grady.

PN786

MR O'GRADY: I'm sorry, your Honour.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN787

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's the summary of the - - -

PN788

MR O'GRADY: Of the enterprise agreement, yes. Sorry, the reason I refer to it as VU2, in that folder we've marked it for the ease of the witness, that's all.

PN789

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see. Yes, thank you. Yes, I have the document.

PN790

MR O'GRADY: Do you accept that this document was distributed to staff at the university prior to them voting on the ballot?---Yes, I do.

PN791

And it was distributed via access to the university's intranet site?---Yes.

PN792

And there were various emails circulated by the university to staff informing them about the enterprise agreement process and providing a hypertext link to that site?---Yes, yes.

PN793

And the effect of clause 11 is described in this document as being setting out the aspirational objectives of the agreement?---That's what it says, Mr O'Grady.

PN794

And this document was referred to in the stat dec that was filed by the NTEU in the certification hearings, wasn't it?---I'll take your word for that, yes.

PN795

Would you have a look at this document for me, please. If I could hand up to the Commission the stat dec that was filed by the NTEU in the certification hearings. I've got a copy for Mr Thomas and for the witness. That's the stat dec that was made by Mr McCulloch for the NTEU?---It appears to be, yes.

PN796

And at paragraph 6.5 in answering the question of steps taken by the employer to explain the terms of the agreement Mr McCulloch says that he has been advised that the university has engaged the NTEU with respect to the terms of the agreement -

PN797

The university's human resources department have also circulated an email to all staff detailing the agreement.

PN798

?---That's what it says, Mr O'Grady.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN799

And I put it to you that that's a reference to the email I mentioned earlier which provided a link to this document?---I assume that that's what it's talking about but I would know that the university's human resources department has also circulated an email to all staff detailing the agreement. That is, that it was the university human resources department that did it and 6.5 does refer to the steps taken by the employer to explain the terms of the agreement to employees subject to it. It does not go to what the union did to explain the terms of the agreement to its members prior to the vote.

PN800

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Dr Doughney, did you see that document prior to the vote, the summary of the enterprise bargaining agreement?
---Not to my recollection.

PN801

You didn't see it?---No.

PN802

MR O'GRADY: Paragraph 6.6 of the stat dec deals with -

PN803

Specify the manner in which the explanation of the terms of the agreement the persons subject to it took place in the ways that were appropriate having regard to the person's particular circumstances and needs.

PN804

Now, Mr McCulloch says:

PN805

I have been advised that the university circulated a document on a number of occasions to all members of staff which explained each clauses in the agreement and also the schedules of the agreement.

PN806

Now, do you accept that that once again is a reference to this document which summarises the terms and conditions in the agreement?---Yes, I'm happy to accept that.

PN807

Thank you. Could I tender this document, the stat dec, your Honour?

EXHIBIT #R1 STATUTORY DECLARATION MADE BY MR MCCULLOCH IN SUPPORT OF THE CERTIFICATION OF THE AGREEMENT

PN808

MR O'GRADY: Thank you, your Honour?---Mr O'Grady, I also note here - - -

PN809

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Dr Doughney, you're there to answer questions at the moment.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN810

MR O'GRADY: Thank you, your Honour.

PN811

Now, Dr Doughney, coming back to Ms Thomas' statement, do you accept what she says in about the middle of paragraph 49 that in the course of - - -?---Just bear with me, I need to get back to the - - -

PN812

Of course, Dr Doughney?---Now, tab?

PN813

Tab 2 I think it is?---Tab 2.

PN814

I don't have your numbering so it might be - - -

PN815

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What are you looking for, Mr O'Grady?

PN816

MR O'GRADY: He's looking for Ms Thomas' statement?---Tab 3 appears to be the statement by - tab 2, Mr Carter. Tab 3.

PN817

You were looking at paragraph 49 of that statement, if that's any help to you?
---Yes, I've put it back there.

PN818

MR O'GRADY: In the middle of that paragraph Ms Thomas says:

PN819

I clearly recall the discussions we had with the NTEU representative over clauses 11, 65 and 70 and in particular the university stating it could not guarantee that it could effectively implement all of the range of options cited in clause 11 at a particular point in time.

PN820

Do you accept that that was said?---Let me put my answer this way, I don't doubt that Ms Thomas is faithfully recording her recollection of the events. I cannot say that that is my recollection of the events specifically.

PN821

So you don't dispute that that was said?---I'm not disputing that Ms Thomas is giving her faithful recollection.

PN822

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, that wasn't the question.

PN823

MR O'GRADY: Yes, that's not the question?---Say it again.

PN824

The question is do you dispute that that was said?---No, I can't say honestly myself that that was said.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN825

Sorry, I didn't ask you that, Dr Doughney. I'm asking you whether you dispute that that was said. Now, you may not know whether it was said or not because you may not be able to recall precisely what was said, but do you dispute it was said or not?---You're asking more than I can deliver, quite frankly.

PN826

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Can you say, Dr Doughney, whether that was not said?---I can't say it was not said.

PN827

Thank you.

PN828

MR O'GRADY: Thank you, your Honour.

PN829

Now, dealing with some more general matters, Dr Doughney, do you accept that there is a need for the university to remain viable in order to protect the jobs of its academic employees into the future?---Yes, I do.

PN830

And that the university currently operates in a competitive environment?---The university does operate in a competitive environment, yes.

PN831

And that its viability will be improved if it can establish itself as a centre of excellence?---Could you explain what a centre of excellence means?

PN832

I mean increasing its reputation in the community as a high quality educational service provider?---Bear with me for being picky, but that phrase really doesn't mean a lot. What means a lot is if the university can increase or maintain its level of enrolments, that if it can increase and maintain its offshore programs, if the university can increase or maintain its research income, if the university can negotiate effectively with the commonwealth government and state government to increase the number of places that would be going to the university in its funding. They're the substantive things that the university must do. Phrases likes centre of excellence and so forth are very woolly and I think they need to be specified in detail.

PN833

Okay, all right. Do you accept that a driver behind the workforce renewal project was for the university to increase its enrolments of both onshore and offshore students?---No, I don't.

PN834

Do you agree that the university tailoring its staffing profile to the courses that are in demand would improve the university's capacity to increase its enrolments?
---State that question again, Mr O'Grady.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN835

Do you agree that having a better match between the university staffing profile and the courses that its students demand would increase the university's capacity to increase enrolments?---Yes, that's entirely true and it's why the university is currently undertaking a course review and the process is actually called course renewal. That process won't be complete until 2007. When in 2007 the university has completed its course renewal process we might have a better idea of both the demand for course positions and those courses that the university itself says that it will maintain even if they're not viable because of its mission to the western region. I think it's very important to get the horse before cart when we talk about matching staff to the course delivery process. You develop the courses, you work out the courses where you've got good demand, you work out those courses where you're going to invest, even though they might not be viable because of some other reason and then you match the staffing profile to it. That I think perhaps gives the best view or the best answer to the question as you posed it.

PN836

You don't accept that the school by school review that was undertaken as part of the workforce renewal project involved an attempt to match demand for courses to staffing profile?---If I knew which school by school review that you were talking about I might be able to answer your question.

PN837

Well, you're familiar, aren't you, with the documentation associated with the promulgation of the workforce renewal project?---Yes, I am.

PN838

Indeed you exhibit to your witness statement the February workforce renewal project documentation?---Yes, that's correct.

PN839

And that documentation makes reference to there being a school by school review of the particular schools in the university, do you accept that?---Yes, I do. Maybe if I find the appropriate part of it.

PN840

Yes, if you would like to go behind the first tab?---It's in this that you've handed up?

PN841

VU5?---VU5, okay.

PN842

Behind the first tab?---Sorry?

PN843

Behind the first tab?---In the first tab, sorry. Yes, got it. Fire away.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN844

You're aware, aren't you, sir, that that document provided for individual schools to complete a workforce plan?---Could you take me to the particular part that says that, Mr O'Grady?

PN845

Well perhaps before I do that I'll just ask the question in the abstract, are you aware that that document provided for individual schools to complete a workforce plan?---Yes, it's at 6.1, indeed.

PN846

Were you aware before you found it at 6.1?---Sorry?

PN847

Were you aware of that before you found it at 6.1?---I was indeed.

PN848

And you had been aware of that for a long time, hadn't you, Dr Doughney?---Yes.

PN849

Indeed prior to this document being issued, in the period December 2005 to February 2006 you were aware that part of the workforce renewal project entailed individual schools conducting or completing a workforce plan, weren't you?---Let me say that I knew about the notion of workforce plans through the university's strategic plan in relation to staff. It wasn't just an innovation of the workforce renewal project.

PN850

It wasn't just but it was certainly a part of the workforce renewal project, do you accept that?---It was hitched to it, yes.

PN851

And it was certainly a part of the workforce renewal project from at least December 2005 when the initial draft of this document was released by
Mr Nicholson?---Yes, that's correct, yes.

PN852

And you were aware of that, weren't you?---I was very well aware of that, sir.

PN853

And part of the workforce plan that the schools had to complete involved looking at the staffing of a particular school, do you accept that?---I do. Mr O'Grady, it might help if you pass me up the document, the school planning document.

PN854

Well, Dr Doughney, it might help if you focus on the question I'm asking you and answering?---Okay.

PN855

You've given evidence that you are familiar with all these things, you're a representative of the union, you're on the resources committee, you're on the interim workplace consultative committee, you've told me that you're aware since December 2005 of the workforce renewal project. If you could just focus on the question and answer for me?---Mr O'Grady, you were taking me to the detail of the plan.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN856

Well, I'm asking you - - -

PN857

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Can I just stop this debate for a moment. Mr O'Grady, would you ask your question and don't answer it and I'll rule on it.

PN858

MR O'GRADY: Yes, thank you, your Honour.

PN859

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: If it's unfair to you, Dr Doughney, I'll ensure that you're protected.

PN860

MR O'GRADY: Do you accept, Dr Doughney, that part of the completion of the workforce plan involved the individual schools looking at the staffing within their school?

PN861

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You may answer that question?---Yes. I'm aware that involved in looking at aspects of staffing, yes. The particular aspects of the staffing I couldn't be quite precise about because I don't have the document in front of me.

PN862

You weren't asked about several aspects of the staffing?---Yes, they were looking at staffing, yes.

PN863

MR O'GRADY: And are you aware of the fact that in looking at staffing one of the things that the schools had regard to was the demand for particular courses that individual staff members were teaching?---Without the document in front of me I can't answer that.

PN864

You were either aware of it, Mr Doughney, or you weren't. Were you aware of that or not?---You're asking me my recollection at the time.

PN865

I'm asking you of your recollection now?---Yes, I know that that was the case, that they were looking at the particular demand for courses but it would be helpful if you passed up the document. I don't see why you're having a problem with that.

PN866

Dr Doughney.

PN867

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Dr Doughney, don't you worry about that. You may be used to be being an advocate, I'm not sure, but at the moment you're a witness?---Okay.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN868

MR O'GRADY: Dr Doughney, do you accept that that would be a legitimate matter for an individual school to look at when completing a workforce plan?---Of course it would.

PN869

Thank you, sir. Do you agree with me, Mr Doughney, that the fact that the workforce renewal project required the completion of school workforce plans indicated that it would be implemented on a school by school, faculty by faculty basis?---No, I don't, Mr O'Grady.

PN870

Do you agree with me that in order to achieve the objectives that are set out in the document you have before you it would be necessary for the university to approach workforce renewal on a school by school, faculty by faculty basis?---In the abstract, yes, it would be sensible.

PN871

Indeed I put it to you it would be irresponsible for the university not to approach the issues raised by workforce renewal on a school by school, faculty by faculty basis?---Could you repeat that question?

PN872

It would be irresponsible of the university of the university not to approach the matters that are raised by workforce renewal on a school by school, faculty by faculty basis?---Yes, I think it would be absolutely irresponsible of the university to have not taken into account the workforce plans that were developed in schools. I think it would be absolutely irresponsible.

PN873

And I put it to you that if you are attempting to achieve the objectives that are referred to in this document as being the objectives of workforce renewal those objectives can't sensible be achieved unless you have regard to the circumstances pertaining in particular schools at the time?---Absolutely correct, which is why I find it curious that none of the school plans have been tabled by the university during this matter.

PN874

Dr Doughney - - -

PN875

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's a matter for submissions,
Dr Doughney and no doubt your Mr Thomas will make much of that point.

PN876

MR O'GRADY: Dr Doughney, do you agree with me that simply having a certain number of reductions in staff across the university as a whole may or may not achieve the objectives set out in the workforce renewal project depending on where those departures are located?---I'll answer the question in two parts because it goes to my understanding of what the objectives of the workforce renewal project were.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN877

Well, the objectives are set out in this document, Dr Doughney, that's what I'm asking you about, paragraph 1?---Paragraph 1 objectives, yes. Could you repeat your question now?

PN878

The question is that simply having a total number of departures across the university as a whole may or may not meet those objectives depending upon the schools and faculties in which those departures are located?---The very abstract objectives that are presented here sensibly could not be achieved unless they're a fulsome school by school process. The problem is - - -

PN879

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That wasn't the question. The question was if you had departures, depending on where they were, it may not achieve the objectives. It's almost statement of the bleeding obvious, if I may say so?---Of the bleeding obvious, yes, yes.

PN880

If the entire faculty departed that would not achieve the objectives, would it?
---Quite so.

PN881

And I put it to you that the fact that there were more than 52 voluntary departures as part of stage 1 of the workforce renewal project it did not necessarily mean that the objectives of that project had been met?---Except that I'm not clear about beyond the 52 the articulation of the objectives of the project because I was never aware that particular targets, particular objectives were ever articulated at the level of schools, nor am I clear that the school plans were ever used in the workforce renewal reporting process. Indeed in the documents that the university has submitted itself, particularly the reports by Mr Nicholson to the university council and its resources committee, were always and only ever pitched at the target of 52 at the aggregate level broken down by academic level. There were never particular targets beneath that articulated, nor was there ever any reference to school plans in the process.

PN882

Just stopping you there, Dr Doughney, I think you've agreed with me that at least since December 2005 there's a reference to school plans as part of the process?---I agree with you that there's been a reference to school plans.

PN883

And indeed the schools have been required to produce those plans for consideration by the university?---Indeed. I'm also aware that the university in the conciliation process of this hearing - - -

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN884

Well, I would be careful, Dr Doughney. I don't want you to say something in the context of a conciliation proceeding that might be improper. I wasn't involved in those proceedings but I - - -

PN885

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It's generally the practice, Dr Doughney, that matters discussed in conciliation are treated as confidential?---Okay.

PN886

MR O'GRADY: But as I understand it, Dr Doughney, you accept my proposition that the mere fact that the university had more than 52 voluntary departures would not necessarily mean that the objectives that are set out in this document were satisfied, would it?---Only given the fact that the objectives that are specified here are so abstract and broad that anything could be conceived of as being an objective and given the absence of anything particular relating to schools it is hard to know what those objectives might well have been. Certainly we were not consulted about any objectives other than the aggregate level of 52 academics at the given levels really in the budget, A through - E through to C and re-employment at C and E, and that was the decision. That decision had been taken before this document was actually promulgated to the university.

PN887

Could you turn page 2 of this document, Dr Doughney, you'll see there there's the argument for the change imperative, do you see that, Dr Doughney?---Take me to it by - sorry, yes, to the heading, yes.

PN888

Do you see that?---I do.

PN889

And you'll see there in the third paragraph the following appears in bold:

PN890

The strategy involves taking action to address any gaps between the current workforce profile and a profile best suited to deliver the long term objectives of the university and introducing new ways to strengthen and support key workforce practices.

PN891

Do you disagree with that proposition as a desirable outcome for the university?
---If I understood actually what it meant in practice I might be able to answer you.

PN892

So you don't have a view? Do you have a view about that or not, Dr Doughney?

PN893

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: He doesn't understand it therefore he doesn't have a view I suspect, Mr O'Grady.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN894

MR O'GRADY: Well, if that's his answer, then that's his answer.

PN895

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: If he doesn't understand it he can't have a view?---It's part of the problem that you have - - -

PN896

MR O'GRADY: Dr Doughney, sorry, I don't, with the greatest of respect, sir, want a speech. You either have a view or you don't have a view, you either understand it or you don't understand it?---I must say I have difficulty actually interpreting the meaning of a lot of the management guff that's presented these days.

PN897

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Dr Doughney?---I don't know what it means in practice.

PN898

You're making another speech?---Sorry.

PN899

MR O'GRADY: Do you understand what it means or not, sir?---Let me read it again.

PN900

Yes?---Okay, and I'll do my best to understand it. I do not understand it
because - - -

PN901

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, you do not understand it. That's the answer to the question?---I don't understand it, yes.

PN902

We don't want to be here until the end of the year, Dr Doughney?---Yes.

PN903

MR O'GRADY: Do you agree with me that the issuing of matching the university's staffing profile and the courses that it believes it should be delivering are matters that have to be addressed on a school by school basis?---No, I don't agree with that. The reason is that the university is currently going through a course renewal program and the decisions about course renewal are going to be taken at the highest university wide level, in particular at the university education and research board where ultimately course recognition occurs. At that level the university and its management will present strategic views about those courses which may be demand driven and other courses, as the vice chancellor has put it, that might not be viable but we will support them because they fulfil the university's mission to the western region. That process is happening now. Once the university decides at the aggregate level, taking into account the demand driven issues that come up at a school level, that plan then will be articulated down to the school level and that's where the staff matching should occur. Again I repeat the point I made earlier about carts and horses, always important to have the horse in front.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN904

So is it your evidence, Dr Doughney, that the university should not be looking at attempting to match its staffing profile with the courses it wishes to deliver until that course renewal project has been completed?---There might be particular instances that would deviate from that plan but I don't think it would be good planning to pre-empt the outcomes of the course renewal process.

PN905

Okay. Now, putting to one side your views about what is good or not good planning, do you say that the university is precluded by the operation of the enterprise agreement from looking at matching its workforce profile and the courses it wishes to deliver until the course renewal project is completed?---Let me put it this way.

PN906

Well, sorry, sir, I don't want a speech?---No, this - - -

PN907

Is it your position? Is it your position that the university is precluded by the enterprise agreement from attempting to match its staffing profile with the courses it wishes to deliver until the course renewal project is completed?---No, all it's obliged to do by the enterprise bargaining agreement is that once that approaches the issue of forced redundancy it is obliged to carry out its obligations under clause 11.3 and other clauses in the agreement such as clause 65.

PN908

Okay?---That's all I would maintain.

PN909

And I put it to you that there is nothing in either clause 11 or clause 65 that would require the university to complete the course renewal project prior to looking at the match between the staffing profile and the courses it wishes to deliver and attempting to re-profile its staff accordingly?---No, clause 11 and clause 65 don't talk about course renewal so obviously not.

PN910

All right. Turning to another topic, Dr Doughney, do you accept that there can be difficulty in redeploying academics from one faculty to another?---Sorry, repeat the question.

PN911

Do you accept that it can be difficult for an academic to be redeployed or can be difficult to redeploy academics from one faculty to another?---It can be difficult, yes.

PN912

And indeed even from within the one faculty from one school to another?---It could be difficult, yes.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN913

And I put it to you that flows from the high level of expertise that academics develop over time in their particular areas?---Academics develop high levels of expertise really in two areas and they're areas recognised by the university. One is in the discipline area which really is quite obvious. The second one is in the area of what's broadly called these days scholarship of teaching and learning. That is, you become skilled in pedagogic practice. So academics in building up skill in pedagogic practice are reasonably flexible in the delivery of the content of their material. While it might be difficult to go from one faculty to another, for example, I could not properly go into science and engineering and deliver a course there despite having accumulated expertise in pedagogy, but I most certainly could go into the faculty of arts and delivery a sociology course even though I'm an economist. I could most certainly go into other areas within the faculty of business and law from marketing to account and deliver appropriate subject material.

PN914

You may not be able to comment on this, Dr Doughney, but would you agree with me that depending on the particular faculty the first element that you spoke of, namely, the specialised knowledge that an academic obtains in their particular area, may take many years to acquire?---Yes, it can do.

PN915

And that that may be reflected in the level at which an academic is appointed, namely, they're a level D or E academic as opposed to a level A or B?---That's quite so.

PN916

And if they were to move into another area even though they might have the I think pedagogical skills was the phrase that you referred earlier, they would not have that degree of expertise in the subject matter that they were attempting to teach?---It's something for pyramid, Mr O'Grady. What you develop, and this is the term that's used about knowledge and its delivery, what you might develop at the top of the pinnacle is a very tight expertise in very tight subject areas and particularly in the areas that an academic might research, but underlying that what you develop in any particular subject areas say within a faculty or in a broad discipline, is a very strong underlying generic disciplinary understanding so that, for example, the statistical expertise that might be achieved by an economist is also the generic statistical expertise that could be used in marketing or accounting or in management. So you have to be very careful about the particularity of the narrow expertise or the narrow skills based on the underlying pyramid of very strong generic skills as well as the pedagogy that one learns.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN917

I understand. Do you accept - - -?---Excuse, Mr O'Grady, I wouldn't mind a glass of water.

PN918

Of course, of course, sir, if I can provide you one.

PN919

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: My associate will attend to that,
Mr O'Grady.

PN920

MR O'GRADY: Thank you, your Honour.

PN921

Do you accept that people who have developed a degree of expertise in their subject matter are often reluctant to move into another area even though they might have the general pedagogical skills to enable them to teach?---Some are and some aren't, Mr O'Grady. It really is an open question.

PN922

In paragraph 14 of - sorry, paragraph 12 of your statement in reply?---Just bear with me. Yes.

PN923

You deal with retraining of academics?---Paragraph 14?

PN924

Sorry, paragraph 12?---Paragraph 12, sorry. Yes.

PN925

Now, are you suggesting in that paragraph, sir, that in order to avoid compulsory redundancies the university should have engaged in, if you like, a spill and fill type process in which all academics were asked whether they wanted to undertake retraining to see if there would be additional vacancies that might avoid compulsory redundancies or are you simply suggesting that persons who have been identified as persons whose positions are going to be made redundant should be offered the option of retraining?---It's a pretty long question, Mr O'Grady. Maybe you could break it down into parts and I could answer it more clearly.

PN926

Did you understand the question?---No, that's what I’m saying. If you could just - it was long and there were sub parts to it, so if you go through each part I would be happy.

PN927

All right. Are you suggesting in paragraph 12 that there be a spill and fill process, do you understand what I mean by that phrase?---I certainly do and I don't see how any clear reading of this could be interpreted to suggest that I would be proposing a spill and fill. Sorry, the answer is no.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN928

Okay. So the retraining options that you identify in that paragraph, are they to be confined to the people who have been identified as persons whose position might be made redundant?---Absolutely not. I would have thought that given the workforce renewals project ostensible objective of developing a skilled workforce going forward for the university that this option might well be open.

PN929

So am I to understand from that last answer that you're suggesting that prior to making people redundant the university should have called for expressions of interest in retraining across its staff?---We have to put this paragraph into context. What I'm talking about here is the move to forced redundancies and forced redundancies were indicated at a particular skill level. What I would be suggesting is that not across the university as a whole, despite the fact that earlier stages of the process the vice chancellor said that every staff member in every school should be thinking about their future, the specifics of it here relate to the particular skills and it would seem to me to be a viable option under clause 11.3 for the university to suggest before moving to forced redundancies that we have reason to go down that particular road and to seek interest from staff members for possible retraining. Retraining is probably a bit of a strange word in regard to academic staff, but for staff thinking about renewing their interest in other subject areas or so forth that's, yes, I think it's an absolutely appropriate thing to do. It is possible to do it.

PN930

So when you - - -

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN931

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What sort of time frame do you have in mind for this process, Dr Doughney?---I would imagine in the process of - perhaps, your Honour, I'll go to the practice. As soon as it became clear, for example, in the schools of information systems, communication, culture and languages and the other one, psychology, yes. When it became clear that those schools were facing financial issues it would have been appropriate under clause 11.3 for in and around the period of April to May when the issues were coming to light to say look, staff, here's a potential, how many of you would be interested in transfer, how many of you would be interested in looking for some sort of help to assist you moving into other areas within the faculty or other areas within the university. You don't know until you try that. A time scale on that could well be one week. You have one week to say whether you are interested in this process and if so it allows for those staff to be considered, their skills and expertise to be taken into account and possible programs for their transition to other areas to be considered. I wouldn't say that it was going to be a tortuous process that would take years. One would do this very rapidly and in fact given - if I may drag it out?

PN932

Yes?---The redundancy process itself drags out over a period of a year.

PN933

Yes?---So in effect that retraining process can be initiated rather quickly and then the development would take place over a longer period.

PN934

MR O'GRADY: Dr Doughney, your proposal is not confined to simply calling for expressions of interest. You then talk about engaging staff to devise relevant programs?---Engaging the VU staff college to device relevant programs. The VU staff college is the internal educating body that helps to give staff PD, professional development stuff within the university. So I think that's entirely appropriate, it does that now.

PN935

And then you would say that what should happen is that there should be discussions with other schools to see whether or not there were mutual compatibilities?---Yes, I think that's sensible, yes. In the first instance at a faculty level, yes.

PN936

And then we move to seeking expressions of interest from those other schools?
---No, sorry, I think you're misreading it. Present possible openings in other schools for expressions of interest, I'm assuming that's by staff, meaning that to
be - - -

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN937

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What does that mean, sorry?---Where possible openings in other schools are there the staff who've expressed in retraining would put their hand up and it might be a competitive application process, that's what that - - -

PN938

MR O'GRADY: I see. And one assumes that if there were any takers under this scheme then the individuals who agreed to be retrained, assuming there was an appropriate course developed, they would then undergo this retraining?---Yes, if that retraining were necessary.

PN939

Now, you said a moment ago that the redundancy process itself takes a considerable period of time to implement. That occurs of course after the determination has been made that somebody is to be made compulsorily redundant, doesn't it?---Yes, it does, but it also takes place in the area of voluntary separation or the options for departure that the university had proposed under the workforce renewal process. They were going to drag out over a year or so, a couple of years in some cases.

PN940

So is it your proposal, Dr Doughney, that somebody would be made compulsorily redundant and then have the year that they're working out undergo this training program, or that the determination that they are compulsorily redundant would be put off to enable this retraining to take place?---I would say the latter because that then would fulfil the intent of clause 11.3 to pursue alternatives to forced redundancy. That would be a very practical alternative to forced redundancy to pursue.

PN941

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And in your scenario does the retraining take place once a person has put his hand up for retraining and been accepted in another place for a position that requires that retraining to take place, does it?
---Yes, I would imagine so, your Honour.

PN942

And perforce that person were not longer be redundant I suppose?---Correct.

PN943

Is that the way it works?---That's the way it would work, yes.

PN944

MR O'GRADY: And then if there was a need to make that person redundant down the track one assumes this process would be gone through again to see if there were any other positions that they could be retrained for?---Only if it were practical and that's why the clause says where possible. I mean there might be a point in this process where you say, well look, this is not working, it's no longer possible and then the process - - -

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN945

Well, where would that point be reached, Dr Doughney, when they've been retrained five times or 10 times? Where is the point that you say clause 11.3 would no longer cease to impose an obligation?---The point you're making is speculative, Mr O'Grady. The five times, 10 times is really quite an outlandish multiple of times that you're presenting. What I would be suggesting, in most instances the process of retraining for academics would be this, if you had the underlying disciplinary capability, say for example to move from the school of communication, culture and languages within the arts faculty to the school of social sciences within the arts faculty, your retraining might involve a little bit of pedagogic work to improve your capability to deal with - - -

PN946

Dr Doughney, did you understand my question? Is it five times or 10 times, is it one time or two times?

PN947

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr O'Grady, I don't think that's a particularly helpful question if I may say so.

PN948

MR O'GRADY: I'll move on, your Honour.

PN949

In any event, once that process had been undergone, if there was a need to make a person redundant they would then be entitled to a further guarantee of 12 months employment under the enterprise agreement?---If a person were then made redundant, yes, that's what the enterprise agreement says.

PN950

Do you accept, Dr Doughney, that this type of process would impose a significant additional obligation upon the university that it would have to meet prior to it being able to implement compulsory redundancies?---It would not impose an additional obligation on the university. It articulates the obligation that exists on the university at the moment under clauses 11.3 and 65.

PN951

With respect to clause 11.3 because that's all we're confined with in the course of these proceedings, do you accept that if 11.3 was read in the way that required the university to go through this process then it would involve a significant impediment that the university would have to meet prior to be able to it being able to implement compulsory redundancies?---Again I'll take you to the school scenario because the answers should only be given - I think can only be given in practice because this is a practical proposition before you. If someone were transferred to another school that person would then become a normal member of that other school. If that other school, in other words, the cloud of redundancy should not hang over an individual if they transfer through the university. They might leave one school, go to another school. If that other school then faces financial problems that might mean - or course issues that might mean that some staff would be made redundant, there should be no carry forward threat of redundancy to that member who's been transferred.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN952

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are you suggesting that there is,
Mr O'Grady?

PN953

MR O'GRADY: Sorry?

PN954

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Did your question suggest that there is a threat of carry forward redundancy?

PN955

MR O'GRADY: No.

PN956

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No.

PN957

MR O'GRADY: No, it's just another - - -

PN958

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think you're passing like ships in the night, the two of you at the moment?---Okay.

PN959

MR O'GRADY: I'm sorry, your Honour.

PN960

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, no. I don't think Dr Doughney is answering the question. I think you're basing your answer on a premise that doesn't exist?---Okay.

PN961

MR O'GRADY: Dr Doughney, my question is this, as I understand what you've explained with respect to paragraph 12, I understand what you've explained with respect to paragraph 12, I'm putting to you that if the effect of clause 11.3 is to require the university to go through that process then 11.3 constitutes a significant impediment to the university implementing compulsory redundancies?---Clause 11.3 does impose an impediment to the university moving to forced redundancies. That's its purpose, that's its intent.

PN962

And on no view could a clause that imposes that sort of substantive obligation be described as aspirational, could it?---In the sense that intent means that you intend to act, that you intend to do, that you intend to explore, you might say that you aspire to act, aspire to explore, aspire to try. All intent means, and intent was the word that came out of the enterprise bargaining process that was agreed on by both parties, all we can say at the end is that the term aspiration was not used and the term intent was used. I see the difference between them as being subtle. Aspiration is woollier, intent is clearer, however intent means if you have an objection, an end, that you try to achieve it. What it doesn't mean, that you will always achieve it. It means that you will try to achieve it. In plain English that's what intent means. So in the case of this, yes, we intend to avoid forced redundancies. The means are - - -

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN963

Dr Doughney, my question was you could not describe a clause that has the effect that you have attributed to clause 11.3 as merely aspirational, could you?---No, which is why intent is merely aspirational. Don't throw merely in there, it makes it difficult.

PN964

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Why is it aspirational then,
Dr Doughney?---Sorry?

PN965

You couldn't describe the effect of clause 11 as aspirational is the question?---I think you could, you know. Do you know why? Because it is an aspiration to avoid forced redundancy.

PN966

MR O'GRADY: I see?---But if you're trying to make a distinction between the words aspiration and the words intent or intentional - - -

PN967

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Dr Doughney, that's going beyond the answer, thank you - beyond the question.

PN968

MR O'GRADY: Dr Doughney, you've also given some evidence about natural attrition as a means of the university pursuing the objectives in workplace renewal, do you recall that evidence?---I do. It comprises a substantive part of my first, original witness statement, yes.

PN969

And do you accept that natural attrition is a blunt instrument in that it doesn't easily tailor itself to a school by school or faculty by faculty approach?---No, I wouldn't accept that because natural attrition actually works at the school by school, faculty by faculty level. In fact it operates at the level of the individual and then you aggregate it up to the total so - - -

PN970

So is it your evidence, Dr Doughney, that if the school had a particular problem or perceived that it had a particular - sorry, if the university perceived it had a particular problem in a particular school with respect to the staffing profile of that school, then that problem would necessarily be addressed by the university pursing natural attrition?---I think you might need to repeat that, Mr O'Grady.

PN971

Is it your evidence that if there was a perceived problem with a particular school as to the profile, if there were too many staff and not enough students, to put it in blunt terms, that that problem would necessarily be addressed if the university pursued natural attrition?---If the university pursued natural attrition as an alternative to try to avoid forced redundancies, yes, that's right.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN972

You don't accept, Dr Doughney, that - - -

PN973

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, it's not really a matter of pursuit, is it, Dr Doughney? It's being passive, isn't it, and waiting for people to leave?
---With respect, your Honour, I don't think it is.

PN974

Perhaps I misunderstand what is meant by natural attrition then?---Natural attrition in the past is in a sense passive, that people do it, people have done it, but a school, for example, that were doing its job and were on top of the staff data that might go, for example, into a staff - a school workforce plan, would have a clear idea of prospective retirement based on the age of staff members. Schools are not such big institutions that people don't talk about retirement intentions or other intentions to depart the university. So a school that was doing its planning properly would have prospective attrition data. Of course ultimately it comes to the individual's decision to leave, to retire, to do whatever and it's a bit difficult really to understand when people might, for example, get a job in another institution so that is a bit tricky. But one does get a fairly good prospective idea and if for example a school were having financial problems, it would seem to me to be appropriate that the head of school would be doing the calculations on that head's best judgment of prospective attrition.

PN975

Yes, thank you.

PN976

MR O'GRADY: See, I put it to you, Dr Doughney, that whilst natural attrition might be a means of reducing the staff numbers across the university as a whole, it does not enable the university to target particular schools where it believes it needs to decrease the ratio of staff to students, do you accept that?---Let's say that if you mean the number of staff.

PN977

Yes?---Natural attrition data at the aggregate level do not indicate what might happen at a school level. School level information would be needed to do that, I think that's an obvious point.

PN978

Yes, thank you, sir. And do you accept that the university, rightly or wrongly, has formed the view that there are particular schools that needed to have the level of their staffing reduced flowing from the workforce renewal project?---I'm aware that the school of psychology, culture, communication and languages and information system had particular issues that needed to be addressed and that they were hitched to the workforce renewal process.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN979

And to the extent that the university formed that view, I put it to you that natural attrition would be unlikely, of its own, of itself, would be unlikely to achieve the outcomes that were being sought by the university in the staffing levels in those schools?---I'm aware of the data that the university has presented in Ms Thomas' witness statement. I think it might also have been in the university's submission overall that suggests that the attrition in those schools would be in step this is where you're heading, would be insufficient to reach the targets that had been, or the financial exigency. The point that I would make about that quite simply is that that data were never even looked at before the decisions for forcible redundancy would come to.

PN980

Would you dispute the data?---I'm going to make a bold statement, yes, I do dispute the data actually.

PN981

All right. On what basis do you dispute the data?---One is that I don't know the basis upon which it was calculated.

PN982

Well, just stopping there, if you don't know the basis upon how it's calculated how can you dispute it?---Because I know the university has been incredibly sloppy in its data work for a long period of time and in particular during the workforce renewal project. So what I’m saying to you is I have no confidence in it.

PN983

No, Dr Doughney - okay, all right. That's a different proposition to the one you gave us a moment ago?---Well, I dispute because - - -

PN984

Do you dispute it or do you have no confidence?---I dispute because I have no confidence.

PN985

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You don't accept it in any event?
---Indeed.

PN986

MR O'GRADY: Thank you, Dr Doughney. All right. Now, you gave some evidence yesterday about the budget that was released in late 2005?---Yes, I did.

PN987

And if you turn to the first tab in the document - sorry, in the folder that you have there. I think you'll find the - - -?---Yes, isn't numbered. Yes, I've got it. I've got it.

PN988

I'll just find it for your Honour.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN989

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There's a lot to be said for having court books when there are many documents, Mr O'Grady.

PN990

MR O'GRADY: I appreciate that, your Honour. I think it's 19 or 20, your Honour?---It's 19, VU19.

PN991

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I have that.

PN992

MR O'GRADY: I apologise for the inconvenience.

PN993

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's all right. It's not the custom in this Commission to direct that court books be prepared.

PN994

MR O'GRADY: Now, as I understood your evidence it was in this document that the workforce renewal project was initially flagged, or had it been flagged prior to this document being released?---It had been flagged prior. It was adopted and targets set in this document.

PN995

Now, you agree with me as I understand it that the only targets set in this document were aggregate targets, there were no school by school targets?
---Precisely.

PN996

And do you agree with me that at this stage this document was prepared there had been no school by school workforce renewal plans generated?---That's correct,
Mr O'Grady, yes, indeed.

PN997

And subsequent to this document being distributed we then had the first draft of the workforce renewal project document dated 20 December 2005 distributed?
---That's absolutely correct.

PN998

And that document went on to set out in more detail what the objectives of the workforce renewal were?---It did do that, yes.

PN999

And that document made provision, I've think you've agreed, for workforce renewal plans to be undertaken on a school by school basis?---It did indeed.

PN1000

And that document also made it clear that compulsory redundancies on a school by school basis might occur?---I'd like to read it. You've said that compulsory redundancies on a school by school basis, if I get your words correct.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1001

Yes, paragraph 4.9?---I'm not sure that it actually says that.

PN1002

Paragraph 4.9?---Give me the number, please.

PN1003

Paragraph 4.9?---No, of the document.

PN1004

The document?---Yes.

PN1005

It's number 3, please?---Number 3?

PN1006

Yes?---Okay. Yes, I have it and sorry, 4.9?

PN1007

4.9, yes?---It says, yes -

PN1008

It may be in some cases a school's workforce plan will show that one or more positions are excess to requirements and the incumbents of those positions are no longer required.

PN1009

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: If you look at the last dot point on that page, Dr Doughney?---It says -

PN1010

Where it has been determined a staff's voluntary separate package is not in their interest the university shall offer following periods -

PN1011

employment, yes.

PN1012

So that refers to compulsory retrenchment, does it not?---4.9 does, yes, and it goes to attachment A.

PN1013

MR O'GRADY: Yes. And that sets out various parts of the enterprise agreement?---Yes, it says that the first step in that instance would be the activation of clause 65 by the supervisor of the affected staff. Now, at that point since we haven't nominated staff I presume that means the supervisor of the school.

PN1014

Thank you for that, Dr Doughney?---And the affected staff would be the school members.

PN1015

You accept that attachment A refers to various provisions in the enterprise agreement?---Yes. In fact it makes an effort to summarise them. It says:

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1016

Before a decision is made that a position is redundant the following actions must occur. There must be direct consultation, different options must be explored, the affected staff are to be provided in writing of the reasons for the redundancy. The views of the affected staff - - -

PN1017

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Dr Doughney, you weren't asked to go to the content of it.

PN1018

MR O'GRADY: I think we've all read it, Dr Doughney. Do you agree with me, sir, that this document was distributed to the staff of the university in December and through - well, in December?---Yes.

PN1019

And that the staff of the university had from when it was released in late December through January to February to consider the terms of that document prior to the release of the revised version in February 2006?---You said that the staff of the university had the option to consider it?

PN1020

Yes?---Given the fact that from December through to the initial consultation period academic staff at the university are usually on leave, I would say at best that the consultation period for this document was at best inauspicious.

PN1021

Well, they had the opportunity. They may not have availed themselves of that because they may have been on leave or for any other reason, but they had the opportunity?---Yes, but most academic staff are told to take leave during this period so that their availability for teaching during the teaching times is always maintained.

PN1022

Were you aware of this document when it was released?---I was indeed.

PN1023

And the same points with respect to a school by school workforce plan and the possibility of compulsory redundancy appear in the February 2006 version of this document, do you accept that?---I do.

PN1024

And then subsequently there were a number of - well, there was an email from the vice chancellor to staff on 10 March in which she spoke of the workforce renewal plan?---I have that here somewhere.

PN1025

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are you taking Dr Doughney to it?

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1026

MR O'GRADY: Yes. Number 6, your Honour?---I have it separately here, yes. Team jacket and the workforce renewal project is the subhead here, and it begins "Every single academic at all levels in three faculties needs to be thinking about their future now." That seems to be a pretty broad comment unrelated to school workforce plans.

PN1027

I see. Could you turn to the second page of that email.

PN1028

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, it's not quite unrelated to workforce plans is it, Dr Doughney? I'm sorry, yes. I was looking at the second page.

PN1029

MR O'GRADY: Could you look at the second page, academic workforce renewal project?---Yes, that's the one I just quoted, that was the first line of the vice chancellor's comment.

PN1030

Yes. Could you read the rest of that paragraph and the first two sentences of the next paragraph?---Okay. Every single academic - - -

PN1031

Sorry, to yourself, Dr Doughney?---Yes, I've finished, Mr O'Grady.

PN1032

Do you accept that that makes it clear that there may be forced redundancies as part of this process?---Indeed it is.

PN1033

And it makes it clear that schools are in the process of completing workforce plans for their school?---Yes.

PN1034

And I put it to you that a staff member reading this document would be aware as at March of 2006 that the process may involve both a school by school approach to workforce renewal and the possibility of forced redundancies?---Yes. And I would underscore the word may in your question.

PN1035

Yes. Well, at this point in time, Dr Doughney, individual staff had not been identified as persons whose positions may be redundant had they?---No, indeed. The sentence is very clear. Every single academic at all levels in the three faculties needs to be thinking about their future now. Again it's pitched at the aggregate.

PN1036

At this point in time phase one of the project was still in train wasn't it, Dr Doughney?---Phase one of the workforce renewal project was, yes.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1037

And that involved calling for voluntary departures didn't it?---It did.

PN1038

And whilst I think you agreed with me that voluntary departures would not necessarily address the problems on a school by school basis, there was a possibility wasn't there, Dr Doughney, that voluntary departures might address the problems of a school on a school by school basis?---The problems that you're talking about on a school by school basis need - what are the problems on a school by school basis, and it needs to be clarified. The reason I make this distinction - or there are two reasons for making the distinction. The first reason for the distinction is that if the problem were that special targets had been set for the 52 or whatever it was, the aggregate level, are articulated down to the school level, and the problem were that the school hadn't achieved it's particular targets, then all I can say is that to the university community and to members of resources committee of council, of which I'm a member, no such school targets were ever articulated. So if that's the problem we're talking about then I make the comment that nothing was articulated ever. If the problem you're talking about is financial exigency in schools in relation to course demand, it might have something to do with the workforce plans being developed in schools, then we're talking about something quite distinct that would fall into the various clauses of the enterprise bargaining agreement that would need, as suggested in the workforce renewal attachment, would need to trigger clause 65 and so forth. So that's - you have to be clear about the particular word problem and to what it refers to make it possible for me to answer you.

PN1039

What I'm putting to you, Dr Doughney, is that at this point in time do you accept that the individual schools are undertaking the task of completing the workforce plans for the school?---To my knowledge at this time the workforce plans for the school were being undertaken, yes.

PN1040

And the function of those plans was to identify problems with respect to the staffing profile in particular schools, do you accept that?---That part of its work was to have done that, yes.

PN1041

And that at the same time you've got people volunteering for voluntary departure packages?---Quite so.

PN1042

Yes. And I put to you, Dr Doughney, that whatever problems might be identified in a particular school's workforce plan might have been addressed through the voluntary departure process that was occurring concurrently?---Again, if we define the word problem carefully. If the problem to which you refer is not meeting particular targets down to the school level that's one set of answers. If it's related to identifying financial problems that might exist within schools in relation to course load and so forth, that could happen at any time in any school, it could happen in second semester this year. It doesn't have to be connected to the workforce renewal project.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1043

I didn't say it had to, Dr Doughney. My proposition is a very simple one, sir. That whether you take - whichever of those two definitions of problem you take, that problem might have been addressed through the voluntary departure process that was occurring at the same time?---Indeed it could have done.

PN1044

Thank you, sir. Could you turn to the next document, Dr Doughney, which is an email of 22 March?---Where are we? If you give me the number?

PN1045

Document 7?---VU7, yes.

PN1046

Yes?---This is from David Nicholson?

PN1047

Yes?---Yes.

PN1048

And you're familiar with this document?---Yes, I am.

PN1049

And part of the update was that as at March 2006 there had been some 25 staff who'd expressed interest in separation outcomes?---Yes.

PN1050

There's also reference to a session by Lee Hecht Harrison. Are you familiar with what that session entailed?---In general, yes.

PN1051

And can you explain to the Commission what that session entailed?---My understanding of it was that it was to provide information to potential applicants for the phase one of the workforce renewal project that would suggest to them what their - a process for them to understand the financial benefits and disadvantages of voluntary separation versus - voluntary separation as per the agreement or, alternatively, going to option one or option two, or whatever it may have been.

PN1052

Do you accept, Dr Doughney, that the voluntary separation process and the engagement of Lee Hecht Harrison was a step taken by the university with a view to potentially avoiding compulsory redundancies?---I think you would be stretching the point to come to that conclusion. Lee Hecht Harrison were there to advise people about the various options that they had before them and to set in place actions for giving them financial advice. I don't see how that could be seen to be helping to avoid forced redundancies. But you could enlighten me.

PN1053

No, Dr Doughney, I'm not trying to enlighten you. I'm simply trying to ascertain your answers to particular questions. You don't accept that. Under the heading project objectives, the email makes it clear that the primary objective of the process is to get the right workforce profile in place to meet the university's education and research outcomes in the coming years. Do you see that?---Yes.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1054

Do you accept that that was the primary objective of the workforce renewal project?---No, I don't. I think this is just - the primary objective of the workforce renewal project was to get a certain number of staff at various levels to leave the university to re-profile the university, which was the initial objective, and all of these other things were just the embroidery.

PN1055

And it goes on to provide that:

PN1056

The workforce plans were being prepared by the schools and that they were designed to anticipate staffing needs of the university so that we can deliver the desired education and research outcomes.

PN1057

?---Indeed.

PN1058

Now, I put it to you, Dr Doughney, that whether you accept the propositions that appear in this paragraph or not, the university is communicating to all of its staff that is what's going on as at March of 2006?---Clearly so.

PN1059

Yes. And staff are on notice - if they weren't on notice before they're on notice that as of March 2006 that the university is examining it's staffing profile with a view to getting a better match between it's staff and it's educational and research outcomes in coming years?---Yes, that's what it says it's doing.

PN1060

And it's doing that on a school by school basis?---Indeed, it say that. It says it, but I've seen no evidence of it. The university has presented no workforce plan. I can't comment to see whether the school planning process actually did what is anticipated here or not.

PN1061

I didn't ask you that question, Dr Doughney?---No. I was taking licence, Mr O'Grady.

PN1062

And would you accept, Dr Doughney, that not only are staff aware of this process but you, as a representative of the union, are aware of the process and the university's stated objectives behind that process?---I'm aware of the university's stated objectives in every single one of my roles.

PN1063

Yes. And the workforce consultative committee is aware of the university's stated objectives with respect to this process?---Yes.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1064

Now, you're also on the resources committee as I understand it, Dr Doughney?
---Indeed I am, Mr O'Grady.

PN1065

And there was a minute of 11 April 2006?---VU10?

PN1066

Yes?---David Nicholson to council?

PN1067

Yes?---Financial management report?

PN1068

Sorry, no, sorry?---I'll get the right number.

PN1069

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That was 21 April.

PN1070

MR O'GRADY: 11 April?---11 April.

PN1071

It's VU11 - sorry, I apologise, Dr Doughney?---There are attachments to - sorry, there it is. It's attached actually in this document behind the paper clip. It doesn't have a number.

PN1072

It's a memo to the resources committee dated 11 April 2006?---Yes.

PN1073

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Where do I find it, Mr O'Grady?---Your Honour, it was attached to VU10.

PN1074

MR O'GRADY: VU20.

PN1075

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I've got that, thank you.

PN1076

MR O'GRADY: You were present at this meeting?---If the minutes say I was present, I was present, yes. I did miss a couple of meetings, but I'll take your word for it.

PN1077

If you could turn to paragraph 9 of that document, Dr Doughney?---Yes.

PN1078

The university is once again - well, the committee is being informed by Mr Nicholson that if targets are not met through voluntary separations the university will move to involuntary redundancies?---That's right. Yes, if targets are not met. The targets are articulated - - -

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1079

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Dr Doughney, please confine yourself to the questions.

PN1080

MR O'GRADY: Thank you, your Honour.

PN1081

Now, in April 2006, Dr Doughney, there was an awareness of the university of a shortfall in revenue from international full fee paying students wasn't there,
sir?---There was. By this time it had become reasonably clear.

PN1082

Yes. And that was a shortfall of some magnitude wasn't it?---Approximately $6m.

PN1083

In excess of $6m?---I don't think that is the latest budget estimate.

PN1084

Well, the view that was held in April 2006 was that it was in excess of $6m. $6.15m?---I'm prepared to go with $6.15m at that time.

PN1085

Just bear with me, Dr Doughney. Sorry, your Honour. I need some documents and I'm just trying to find the one?---Maybe that's in VU10. Yes, it's in VU10, Mr O'Grady, at point 3.

PN1086

Sorry, what's the document you're reading?---VU10, it's report, financial management report to council from David Nicholson.

PN1087

Yes, dated 21 April 2006?---That's the one, yes. And item 3 refers to 6.15 million.

PN1088

Item 1 refers to report to council?---Yes.

PN1089

Actions being taken by management in response to forecast shortfall in revenue?
---Yes.

PN1090

And then item 6 deals with what organised units will be asked to do to consider savings?---Yes.

PN1091

And then item 7, the workforce - the resources committee confirms support for the workforce renewal program and acknowledges it may be one of the key initiatives that will assist university to not only remain financially viable but to meet the academic objectives of the university?---Yes.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1092

Do you accept that it may - sorry, I'll rephrase that. What flowed from this, I put to you, Dr Doughney, is that the university attempted to use the workforce renewal project to accommodate or deal with the shortfall in income from international fee paying students?---My recollection, Mr O'Grady, is that that point was moot. In fact I do recall, since you've asked me about resources committee and its discussions on this.

PN1093

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, you weren't asked what you recall. You were asked a specific question. If what you recall is part of the answer to that question, by all means?---Yes, it is, sir.

PN1094

Go ahead?---The workforce renewal project had an ambiguous and uncertain relationship to the effort to get savings regarding the downturn in the international income at this point. In fact the effort to get savings was an initiative that the resources committee proposed to be carried out by faculties that was focusing on other aspects of expenditure not connected specifically to the workforce renewal project. In fact one of the first and most important targets was to reduce the level of casual employment. And again the connection between the workforce renewal project and the savings to be generated to meet the $6m downfall was not particularly clear at this point and, in fact, the deans were all asked to give reports on how they may go about achieving those savings, and that they would require cut backs in, for example, where you have a decline in international student revenue it means that classes for international students are not being delivered, so that it means payments for staff to do those classes are not being - so this process is still ongoing I should add.

PN1095

MR O'GRADY: Do you accept, Dr Doughney, that there is a clear nexus between the number of international fee paying students attending a particular school and the staffing profile that that school is going to require into the future?
---Only in schools that have a very high international teaching load. Some schools don't have an international teaching load at all and some have financial issues for other reasons. Again you have to - so in general no, but in specific cases it might be true.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1096

And do you accept that as far as a school is concerned when it is completing its workforce renewal project report for that school it would have to take into account the impact if any of the decline in fee paying international students?---No. This is not what I understand happens. The responses to the $6m downturn were not done at the school level, they were done by deans at a faculty level, and the faculty level reports came in. That is the fact. Where you're getting to - - -

PN1097

I'm happy to proceed on that basis, Dr Doughney. Do you accept that at a faculty level, a faculty confronted by this potential decline in foreign fee paying student income would have to assess the impact that that decline in revenue would have on the schools within that faculty?---Precisely. Of course it would.

PN1098

And it would have to assess it's staffing profile accordingly?---It would have to assess its staffing profile accordingly if it were suggested that there were some reason for financial exigency in particular schools. It would have to do that but only in the particulars. I'm being a bit pedantic but it's important to be pedantic about financial matters because they articulate in very particular ways to organisational units. And in particular - the cases that we have before us, for instance, the two schools within the faculty of arts do not have a huge impact from downturn of international student income because that's not what those schools do. The faculty of business and law is the big international fee paying generator as to some, a lesser degree is the faculty of health and engineering and so on. So again you've got to, you have to look at the particulars.

PN1099

Do you accept, Dr Doughney, that if there was a faculty wide impact or there was an impact on the faculty as a whole of a decrease in international fee paying students then that might involve a reorganisation of the faculty, including the schools that were not indirectly impacted by that decline in international fee paying students?---It might well do. No such faculty reorganisation has been suggested so far, in fact.

PN1100

Now, on the - sorry, just bear with me, Dr Doughney. Could you turn to document 11 please, sir?---VU11, yes.

PN1101

VU11?---This is the May email from Professor Carter?

PN1102

Yes?---Riding out the bumps, yes.

PN1103

Yes. Now, once again this was a document distributed to all staff?---Indeed. Or by the - yes.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1104

And under the heading, tightening our belts, the vice chancellor makes it clear that the - well, the vice chancellor deals with the decline in international income?
---She does. She first refers to the TAFE schools.

PN1105

Yes. But she doesn't confine her observations to the TAFE schools does she?
---No, she doesn't. The whole university reflects it, yes.

PN1106

Yes. Now, as I understand your witness statement you take issue with the proposition that the university was under any financial exigency prior to April 2006, is that the case?---Sorry, I'm still reading the vice chancellor's comments, Mr O'Grady. Just because you've drawn my attention to this, I think the vice chancellor's comment here actually confirms what I'm saying, that I did say about the very tenuous relationship between the workforce renewal project and the actions that would be required to meet the $6m deficit. In fact it seems to be that - it seems to me that the vice chancellor was actually distinguishing the two processes to some degree and saying that the savings would have to come from other areas.

PN1107

I see?---I think it's important to note that actually, Mr O'Grady.

PN1108

That was how you read this email at the time is it, Dr Doughney?---Yes, because that confirmed my conversations and discussions with the vice chancellor at the resources committee.

PN1109

Coming to my question, Dr Doughney, do you accept that the university maintains that it was under financial pressure prior to April 2006?---Indeed.

PN1110

Do you accept that the university was under financial pressure prior to April 2006?---It was under financial pressure prior to April 2006?

PN1111

Yes?---I'm hesitating not for any odd reason. Of course it was. It became aware of the problem in about April 2006 when the final returns come in. You have to - I think census date for enrolments would have been 31 March. So you become aware of it, but the fact of it can be said to stretch back in budgetary terms right to 1 January. That's the truth of it. So I was responding to the particulars of your question by my hesitancy.

PN1112

Well, perhaps if I can put it in these terms, Dr Doughney. Do you accept that as way back as when the budget for 2006 was released in late 2005 the university maintained that it was under financial pressure?---No, I do not. No, I do not. Would you like me to explain why I don't?

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1113

No. I want to understand what your position is, Dr Doughney. But in any event do you accept that with the decline of international fee paying students the university was placed under financial pressure?---In meeting it's budget objectives, yes.

PN1114

And that pressure would apply differentially from faculty to faculty and school to school depending upon the number of international fee paying students that would have been expected or budgeted to attend those schools?---Yes, except that the university also undertook - and you might check this with you - - -

PN1115

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, Dr Doughney, I think you've answered that question.

PN1116

MR O'GRADY: Thank you, sir?---Not completely.

PN1117

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, if you feel you haven't, go ahead. I thought you had?---Yes. But the university took a decision in some respects to unhinge the $6m from the particular enrolments. It said that the $6m downturn would be shared equally across the faculties, and they were given $2m each. That is my understanding of how it went. That imposed particular constraints on the schools within faculties that were not directly affected by the downturn in student income. So again in the words of your question, that explanation I think has to be made to clarify the picture.

PN1118

MR O'GRADY: So there was impact even on those schools where they didn't have a large number of - well, sorry, those faculties even where they didn't have a large number of international fee paying students?---Yes, that's what I'm saying, Mr O'Grady, yes.

PN1119

And do you accept that there is a degree of pipelining that occurs with respect to these types of declines, that you don't just have a one off hit where you miss out on people who enrol in year one, that if it's a three year course then there is a flow on decline that occurs in year two and year three of that particular course?---Yes, quite so. As with any increase in enrolments it goes the other way.

PN1120

Yes. And do you accept the evidence of Mr Carter about the general decline in international fee paying - or plateauing of international fee paying student enrolments - - -?---Could you direct me please, Mr O'Grady, to the particular part of Professor Carter's witness statements?

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1121

If you turn to paragraph 17 and following?---Of Professor Carter's statement?

PN1122

Professor Carter's statement, yes?---Yes.

PN1123

And paragraph 20 deals with the budgeted income from onshore educational international students?---Yes, it does.

PN1124

And then paragraph 21 states:

PN1125

If the 2006 university budget which was adopted in December 2005 forecast modest growth in income from onshore international students in 2006 and beyond as set out above, this followed a decade of rapid growth and income from this source. The slowing of growth in income represented in the 2006 budget was based on the decline of international commencements that had been already experienced in 2005 and indicators related to student inquiries for 2006 commencement.

PN1126

Do you accept that that's an accurate statement of the situation?---Yes, it is.

PN1127

And it was on top of that that the decline that was perceived in April 2006 had to be taken into account?---No, not on top of this, no.

PN1128

What Professor Carter is saying is that there was already a factoring in of some decline in the 2006 budget?---Yes, and it's pipeline.

PN1129

And it's pipeline. But that that was exacerbated when the real figures, if you like, came out in April 2006?---Precisely, yes.

PN1130

Yes, thank you. Now, on 16 May there was a meeting of the workforce consultative committee? Document 13, your Honour?---It's VU13 in the first sentence.

PN1131

Yes?---Yes, and you're referring to the minutes?

PN1132

Yes, I'm referring to the minutes. Now, did you attend this meeting?---I was an invited attendee.

PN1133

I see. Even though you're not a member of the committee as such. I was a member of the interim committee, then elections were held for the - - -

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1134

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The answer is no?---No. Sorry.

PN1135

MR O'GRADY: And do you accept, Dr Doughney, as appears in, I think it's the fifth paragraph under the heading, breach of EBA, that you raised a question of why more academic C and B and A specifically targeted?---Yes.

PN1136

And what Mr Nicholson said in response to that was that any position can be targeted for redundancies?---That's right.

PN1137

So if it hadn't been clear prior to that point, Dr Doughney, I put it to you it was clear from at least 16 May that the university was not simply confining itself to attempting to alter the profile between higher level academics, levels D and E, and lower level academics, levels C, B and A?---Precisely. Yes, precisely. But by this time the juggernaut had started.

PN1138

And I put it to you, Dr Doughney, that it had been clear from the outset, or at least from the December 2005 document in which the workforce renewal plan was described in detail, that the university wasn't confining itself to changing the ratio between levels D and E and levels A, B and C?---I think that's contradicted by the evidence, Mr O'Grady.

PN1139

Now, on the following page, Dr Doughney, you say at about point six of the page:

PN1140

Fifty-five have proceeded to applications so why the need for forced redundancies?

PN1141

Do you see that?---Yes.

PN1142

Do you accept that your reference there to 55 is a reference to the 55 voluntary departures that exceeded the target of 52 voluntary departures?---Yes.

PN1143

And do you accept that that is an aggregate figure not based on a school by school or faculty by faculty analysis?---Yes, that's right, it's an aggregate figure, yes.

PN1144

And you accept - sorry, I'll withdraw that. And Mr Nicholson's response was that they are not across the targeted areas, we don't know how many people will be accepted at the end of the process?---That's right.

PN1145

I put it to you that that was a reference to the need to address this issue on a school by school, faculty by faculty basis?---No. I would respond differently.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1146

I see. All right. Well, what Mr Nicholson says, you either accept or reject the proposition, Dr Doughney, and if you don't accept it that's fine, I'll move on to the next question. You see two lines down below that Mr Nicholson went on to say:

PN1147

The staff in the school of information systems have suffered a downtown.

PN1148

?---Yes.

PN1149

Yes. And I put it to you that that was referenced by him to a particular school that had needs that weren't being addressed by the 55 applications for voluntary departure?---Yes, that's what he - that's what Mr Nicholson is saying there, yes.

PN1150

Dr Doughney I haven't asked you a question at this point of time. Now, at the conclusion of this - sorry, item four of the meeting dealt with a request for the provision of staff data?---Yes.

PN1151

And I put it to you, Dr Doughney, that what was asked went beyond simply staff data. What was asked for went beyond simply staff data?---Take me to the particulars, Mr O'Grady.

PN1152

All right. You've got there:

PN1153

Mr Deal says he'd like to see the data the executive deans are actually using to make their decisions.

PN1154

I put it to you that goes beyond simply staff data?---No. I think what was meant there, and the context of the discussion would have made that clear, was the school workforce plans, which you've been at great pains to point out were about staff data.

PN1155

So your evidence is that staff data, for the purposes of clause 12 of the EBA, extends to school workforce plans?---I think it's perfectly appropriate, yes.

PN1156

Is it your evidence that staff data extends to any data that impacts upon staff and their employment?---No, I wouldn't go that far because there are some data that impacts upon staff and their employment that would be confidential or might be held commercial in-confidence, or there might be some other prohibition on it. But I would think that in the environment of redundancies and where a question had been raised about the proper application of the agreement, the sorts of data that schools were relying on in their school workforce plans would have been the first thing that the university might have provided to clarify people about the particular problems in schools that you've been referring to.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1157

That may well be your view, Dr Doughney. My question was, does staff data extend to any data that might impact upon staff and their employment? As I understand your answer you've said subject to some defined limitations, namely, confidentiality, commercial in-confidence?---Or there might be other ones, Mr O'Grady. I don't want to be so prescriptive, but in the instance here - - -

PN1158

As a general proposition - - -?---The general proposition, yes.

PN1159

I want to ask you as a general proposition?---Yes. The university prides itself on its openness, and I think it would be entirely appropriate, yes.

PN1160

Whether it's appropriate or not, Dr Doughney, isn't the question I'm asking you. I'm asking you what you say constitutes staff data. Is it your position that staff data is all data that impacts upon staff and their employment subject to some limitations that might require information not to be disclosed?---Maybe I'd express it this way. Staff data would be interpreted for the workplace consultative committee would be interpreted in the context of the role that the workplace consultative committee has to ensure the proper application of the EBA, hence the sort of staff data that relate to matters such as, for example, discrimination and anti-discrimination, which is one of the clauses in the agreement, would be appropriate. The aggregate ratios that are referred to in the - - -

PN1161

Dr Doughney, I'd like to bring you back to my question?---Well, I'm trying to answer it, Mr O'Grady, by being specific.

PN1162

Well, I haven't asked you anything about discrimination?---No. But I was just giving - you have asked me to exclude - and try to specify exclusions. I'm trying to include data as well that would be appropriate. I think it would help you to hear the answer out.

PN1163

Well, is it your evidence, Dr Doughney, that any data that has a bearing upon the operation of the EBA falls within the descriptor of staff data?---Yes.

PN1164

And that would include all the financial data of the university?---Yes.

PN1165

It would include all data relating to enrolments of students, both domestic and overseas?---I don't think you would need to do that because that data is held elsewhere in the university and it's quite open.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1166

Whether you'd need to do it or not, your definition of what is staff data, namely, any data that is relevant to the operation of the EBA, would include data of that type wouldn't it?---Yes.

PN1167

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Dr Doughney, you don't seem to distinguish between or differentiate between staff data and university data?---No, I haven't, your Honour.

PN1168

Do you think there is a distinction?---There is a distinction between aggregate or other university data and particular staff data.

PN1169

I'm just trying to understand what you mean by the expression staff data. When Mr O'Grady asked you whether data relating to the number of students would include staff data you've said yes?---Yes.

PN1170

How so?---Because it would refer to the number of staff that would be needed to teach those students in particular areas. So there's an almost - - -

PN1171

You use the term staff data as meaning data that might have an impact upon staff?---Or data that will have an effect on staff data, yes. Some of those financial and student enrolment data will have an almost immediate and direct effect on staff data, so I guess I'm taking it derivatively.

PN1172

MR O'GRADY: And do you accept that that is an extremely broad category of information?---I would take the broad view of staff data, yes.

PN1173

Indeed, I put it to you, Dr Doughney, that if that view were accepted there would be very little information that the university council would be privy to that the workplace consultative committee - there would not be staff data?---I take the - yes, I take the broad view and with the caveats about confidentiality and other things that I mentioned.

PN1174

Well, I didn't ask you about those.

PN1175

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Dr Doughney, when you define how you mean staff data do you have regard to the purpose of the WCC as spelt out in clause 21 to enable for formal consultation within the university regarding implementation of the agreement?---Sorry, your Honour, could you - - -

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1176

As I understand it we're talking about clause 12 of the agreement now?---Yes.

PN1177

And your assertion that the university has failed to provide sufficient data, and I'm asking you whether you look at that in the context of clause 12.1, which provides for a specific purpose for the WCC. And that's been adverted to in the submissions of the university. Does the staff data have to relate to that purpose or does it go further?---No, I believe it has to relate to that purpose, your Honour.

PN1178

Yes, thank you.

PN1179

MR O'GRADY: Now, even accepting that limitation, Dr Doughney - - -

PN1180

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And in fact - sorry to interrupt. I don't know if there's a distinction, but the words in the clause talk about appropriate staffing data. I don't know if that's different to staff data or not. Is it, Dr Doughney?---No, I don't - I wouldn't draw a distinction.

PN1181

MR O'GRADY: Now, Dr Doughney, do you accept that - sorry, I'll start again. Before his Honour's question you were saying that it would be a broad category of data but it would be subject to some limitations with respect to confidentiality and commercial sensitivity and the like. I'm proceeding on from where I think you were. But is that the effect of your evidence?---Yes.

PN1182

Do you accept that there are no limits in respect of confidentiality and commercial in-confidence prescribed in the certified agreement?---That there are no limits
on - - -

PN1183

Well, when clause 12 speaks of the types of data - - -?---You're at 12.1?

PN1184

Well, when clause 12.1 speaks of the types of data that can be requested by the workforce consultative committee it doesn't exclude commercial in-confidence information?---No. But it does use the word appropriate, and I think appropriate covers that point, Mr O'Grady. We're not going to ask for inappropriate staffing data that might go to confidentiality.

PN1185

All right. So do you say then, Dr Doughney, that the effect of the phrase appropriate in 12.1 is to confer upon the university a discretion as to what data it provides to the WCC?---I don't think it prescribes that discretion upon the university. It would prescribe that limitation upon the workplace consultative committee.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1186

I see. So if the workplace consultative committee took under itself to look at commercial in-confidence information the university would be obliged to provide that information?---No, I don't think so because I don't think the workplace consultative committee would be asking for inappropriate information.

PN1187

Let's just assume for the moment it does. Assume for the moment that somebody within the workplace consultative committee applies to see what is inappropriate information. Can the university say no or not?---The university can say no. The process then, if there were disagreement, go to dispute about the proper application of the agreement.

PN1188

So it is for the university, I put to you, Dr Doughney, to make an assessment as to what is appropriate staffing data and what isn't?---In the first instance the university will do that doubtless.

PN1189

And I put it to you that unless it be shown that the university did not provide appropriate staffing data then there could be no question of non compliance with clause 12.1?---You might need to repeat that question, Mr O'Grady.

PN1190

That unless it was shown that the university failed to provide appropriate staffing data, not just staffing data, it has to be appropriate staffing data, then there could be no question of 12.1 not being complied with?---No, you're losing me again.

PN1191

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You're claiming that the university has failed to comply with clause 12.1?---Yes.

PN1192

I think all Mr O'Grady is asking you is, you have to make your case don't you? You have to demonstrate to me that it has failed to provide appropriate staffing data in accordance with that clause. Is that your point, Mr O'Grady?

PN1193

MR O'GRADY: Yes, your Honour?---And my answer is that the university has not provided appropriate staffing data within the meaning of that clause, data that would enable the workplace consultative committee - - -

PN1194

Sorry, I don't need another speech, Dr Doughney. And do you accept, sir, that appropriate staffing data has two components, if you like. Firstly it must be staffing data, whatever that may mean, and secondly it must be data, staffing data that is appropriate to be provided to the workplace consultative committee?
---Correct.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1195

And I think you've indicated that commercial in-confidence data would not be appropriate to be provided to the workplace consultative committee?---Let's take that as a general heading, yes.

PN1196

Do you accept that there may well be other areas of staffing data, whatever that may mean, where it would not be appropriate to provide that information to the workplace consultative committee?---Yes.

PN1197

Do you accept that under the enterprise agreement the workplace consultative committee does not have a power of veto over the actions of the university?---I just quickly glanced through the clauses, Mr O'Grady. I clearly doesn't have a power of veto.

PN1198

And even if the university had provided, say the school plans that had been developed under the workforce renewal project, and even if the workplace consultative committee had found, or formed the view that the matters set out in those plans did not warrant a move to forced redundancies, the workplace consultative committee would have no power to bring the workforce renewal program to a halt?---I'll be pedantic again, Mr O'Grady. Workforce renewal program, project, has two phases, and the problem here is forced redundancy, we can put that in phase two.

PN1199

Let's just deal with phase two?---Phase two, good.

PN1200

Let's assume for the moment that - - -?---That the university has provided - - -

PN1201

Information?---School plans, the reasons for its calculations of the aggregate number of positions that it might want and so forth. Its presented those to the workplace consultative committee, the workplace consultative committee says the data you've provided us with does not give you good reason to proceed with forced redundancies.

PN1202

Yes. And the university says tough, we don't care?---Tough, we don't care. The response of the - - -

PN1203

The university would still be entitled to proceed with forced redundancies in those circumstances wouldn't it?---It would be entitled to proceed according to the clauses of the enterprise bargaining agreement, 11.3, 65.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1204

I understand that, but I'm dealing with clause 12 for the moment, Dr Doughney, and I'm putting to you that whatever 11.3 might mean, because we're not dealing with clause 65 might mean - whatever clause 11.3 might mean, clause 12 does not empower the workplace consultative committee to impede the forced redundancies that are part of stage two of the workforce renewal program, does it?

PN1205

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Before you answer that, Dr Doughney. Mr O'Grady, is that part of the union's case at all?

PN1206

MR O'GRADY: Sorry, sir?

PN1207

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is it part of the union's case that the workplace consultative committee can impede it? It's asking me to impede it on the basis that it hasn't been provided with appropriate information. That's a different issue isn't it?

PN1208

MR O'GRADY: Well, the order that is sought in the outline filed by the union, the last of the orders, and indeed - - -

PN1209

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Of the original orders?

PN1210

MR O'GRADY: We have received an amended version of the orders now, but I understand that there have been some amendments. I read the orders that were originally sought and in the light of the amendments that are made yesterday, it is said that in determining the proper application of clauses 11.3 and 12 of the certified agreement the Commission should impede the operation of stage two of the workforce renewal project.

PN1211

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN1212

MR O'GRADY: And my question to the witness, your Honour, is that clause 12 could not impose such a fetter.

PN1213

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: On the university at the best of the WCC?

PN1214

MR O'GRADY: Yes. And I think - - -

PN1215

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I'm querying the relevance, but that can be during submissions. You accept that don't you, Dr Doughney?---Yes. Excuse me, your Honour, all of this water is having an effect on me.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1216

Well, I propose to adjourn at a quarter to one. Is that satisfactory or should I adjourn for lunch and take luncheon perhaps a bit early? I'll take it now. We'll resume at 1.30, if that's convenient to everybody?

PN1217

MR O'GRADY: Yes, your Honour.

<LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.27PM]
<RESUMED [1.28PM]

PN1218

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr O'Grady?

PN1219

MR O'GRADY: Yes, thank you, your Honour.

PN1220

Dr Doughney, just prior to lunch I was asking you about the workplace consultative meeting of 16 meeting, do you recall that?---Yes, I have that page open of the minutes.

PN1221

Now, subsequently a request was made for information flowing on from that meeting, is that the case?---Yes, I understand that's the case.

PN1222

Yes. And you exhibited as NTEU11 as I understand it, the email that constituted that request, this is NTEU11 to either the submissions of the witness statement - sorry, to the submissions filed by the university. Are you aware of that?---I don't have it with me, Mr O'Grady, but maybe if you could pass that up I could - - -

PN1223

Well, perhaps an easier way of dealing with it. If you turn to Ms Thomas' statement. Do you have that?---I do. It's in this collection.

PN1224

Sorry, I think it's in the folder?---It's in the folder.

PN1225

Go through the folder, perhaps move your way through the tabs, Dr Doughney, you will see Ms Thomas' statement?---I've got it.

PN1226

And could you turn to paragraph 54 of that statement?---Yes, okay.

PN1227

And that sets out what was requested?---Yes.

PN1228

And that occurred after the meeting of 16 May?---Mm.

PN1229

And if you turn to exhibit ST16 of Ms Thomas' statement?---Okay, yes.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1230

You have that?---Yes, I do, yes, indeed.

PN1231

There's the email that contains that request, is that the case?---That's right.

PN1232

Now, the date of that request isn't apparent from the email as I read it, but it's obviously some time after the meeting of 16 May and some time before 19 May, in that the documents have got to be provided by the 19th and it refers to the meeting of the 16th?---I take your word for that.

PN1233

You don't have any reason to disagree with that?---No, I don't have any, no.

PN1234

All right. Now, do you have before you, Dr Doughney, the application made to the Commission in this proceeding, the 170LW application?---I don't, Mr O'Grady.

PN1235

Appended to that application were two emails from yourself, do you accept that, or do you recall that?---You'd have to refresh my memory, Mr O'Grady.

PN1236

All right, just bear with me. Perhaps if I can deal with it in these terms. Your dispute in respect of clauses 11, 12, 14, 24, 27, 48 and 70 of the agreement was notified by way of an email from you to the university of 10 May 2006. Do you accept that?---Yes. I have no reason to doubt that that's true. It would be nicer to have it before me.

PN1237

Yes. And if I had my instructor here I'd provide you with a copy, Dr Doughney. I don't have a spare copy. I'm happy to show you my copy.

PN1238

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I can have the file turned up and shown to the witness if you like.

PN1239

MR O'GRADY: Your Honour, if it's convenient I'm happy for Dr Doughney to see my copy. It's got highlighting but nothing else, but if it helps progress matters?

PN1240

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I've got some copies which have also been highlighted?---We have it.

PN1241

MR O'GRADY: If you could turn to the last page of that bundle, Dr Doughney, does that have an email from you to Ms Thomas dated 2 May 2006?---It does, yes.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1242

And that is the email through which you notify a dispute in respect of number of clauses of the agreement, including clause 12?---That's right.

PN1243

And that dispute clearly preceded the meeting of the workplace consultative committee of 16 May 2006?---Yes.

PN1244

And it clearly preceded the request for information that I took you to a moment ago?---Yes.

PN1245

And whilst you attended the workplace consultative committee on 16 May 2006 on an invitational basis, you weren't a member of that committee at that
time?---That's correct.

PN1246

Yes, thank you, Dr Doughney.

PN1247

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: If you could hand those back thanks, Dr Doughney.

PN1248

MR O'GRADY: Do you still have Ms Thomas' statement before you? I think you do?---I have the - - -

PN1249

If you go back to the statement for me, Dr Doughney?---At?

PN1250

At paragraph 55?---55, yes, okay.

PN1251

You will see there that Ms Thomas says that there was an invitation from the vice chancellor on 18 May to meet with members of the workplace consultative committee?---Yes.

PN1252

Are you aware that that meeting took place?---I am aware that that meeting took place.

PN1253

And that the request for information that we've just mentioned was discussed at that meeting?---That's what Ms Thomas says, yes.

PN1254

You don't dispute that?---I wasn't at the meeting, but yes.

PN1255

But you don't dispute it?---No, I don't dispute it, indeed. I've tuned in to the not disputing.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1256

And then subsequently there was a further meeting on 8 June 2006 where Mr Nicholson met with the workplace consultative committee?---Yes.

PN1257

Now, as at 8 June 2006 the union had notified the Commission of a dispute over the application of the enterprise agreement?---Yes.

PN1258

And that dispute appended the email that I took you to a moment ago of 10 May 2006?---Correct.

PN1259

So by 8 June is it fair to say that the matter had been referred to the Commission and was under the Commission's processes?---Now, the date of referral to the Commission?

PN1260

Was 1 June?---1 June, yes, indeed.

PN1261

And are you aware that at the meeting on 8 June Mr Nicholson advised the workplace consultative committee that the requested information would not be provided at that time as events had overtaken the request and the matters were now in the hands of the AIRC?---I have no reason to dispute that Mr Nicholson said that.

PN1262

All right, thank you. Now, as at 16 May 2006 the university was still in stage one of the workforce renewal project wasn't it?

PN1263

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: As at what date?

PN1264

MR O'GRADY: 16 May?---16 May, yes, it was still in phase one but had signalled its intention to move to stage two, and I think that was clear enough in the emails that you asked me to read by the vice chancellor this morning.

PN1265

Yes. And was it still encouraging people to take up voluntary redundancy or voluntary departures as at 16 May 2006?---My understanding is that it was but that that option closed at the end of May or the beginning of June. Is that correct?

PN1266

Yes. Although there was an extension wasn't there, Dr Doughney?---Yes.

PN1267

All right. Now, can you turn back to the front of that folder, Dr Doughney, to the exhibits behind the submission to VU14?---VU14?

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1268

Yes?---Email from the vice chancellor dated - - -

PN1269

22 May?---22 May, yes.

PN1270

And what appears in that first paragraph of that email is consistent with what you've just said a moment ago, that the voluntary stage of the current renewal process was still on foot but it was nearing completion as at 22 May, do you accept that?---Indeed.

PN1271

And there was a process whereby Mr Nicholson was to reconsider any applications that had already been processed to take into account the fact that there had been some recent changes to superannuation?---That's what it says.

PN1272

Do you dispute that that was what was going on?---Yes, that did happen to my recollection, yes, I don't dispute that.

PN1273

And then if you turn to the second last substantive paragraph of Friday I discussed both the planned process and the views of staff of the workplace consultative committee. I think you accepted that took place?---Yes.

PN1274

Right. And there was a consideration then of comments of staff in relation to the draft criteria for the second stage?---Quite so.

PN1275

Yes. Do you accept that in those circumstances, Dr Doughney, that as at 22 May there had been no determination that any individual staff member would be made compulsorily redundant?---No, there had not been.

PN1276

You had a voluntary process that was drawing to an end, volunteers were still being asked for, do you accept that?---Yes, it was still open.

PN1277

Do you accept the university was still trying to encourage people to volunteer for a voluntary separation package as at 22 May?---Indeed. People were being tapped on the shoulders in schools and told that they'd better do it because they'd be made forcibly redundant quite soon unless they did.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1278

And the university was flagging that it would in all likelihood have to move on to the next stage of compulsory redundancies?---I think beyond flagging it said it would, it had said that it would.

PN1279

Okay?---And I think that was clear enough in the emails you directed me to this morning.

PN1280

All right. Do you dispute the fact, Dr Doughney, that if there had been sufficient volunteers in the schools who were identified as having a staffing profile problem that the university would have accepted those volunteers?---It was a movable feast, Mr O'Grady. I was not clear, as I said to you in the evidence that I gave this morning, I was not clear about what were the targets that the university had set within schools. No one within the university knew of targets and no targets at that level had been reported to the governing bodies of the university. In fact in all the emails we were still dealing with the level of aggregates based on the academic level of the staff involved. So the process that you're referring to here, the transition from phase one to phase two, and the university not meeting the targets, was an obscure one to anyone observing from the outside, or even someone like myself observing from the inside as a member of the resources committee of the university council, because we had no sense of what targets or school level numbers were being approached. All we knew was that the total number had exceeded the number that had been proposed and had been reported upon successively, that there might have been a couple of level D and level E discrepancies. But the fundamental - - -

PN1281

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So the answer to Mr O'Grady's question is you don't know.

PN1282

MR O'GRADY: Yes, thank you, your Honour.

PN1283

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You could have answered that question in three words, Dr Doughney.

PN1284

MR O'GRADY: You're aware, Dr Doughney, that both Professor Joanne Finkelstein and Professor Colin Clarke identified a number of positions in the faculty for which they're responsible as positions that had to be made compulsorily redundant?---Yes, I am aware of that, yes.

PN1285

And do you dispute the proposition that if there had have been sufficient applications for volunteers for voluntary separation packages from those faculties and the particular schools where the compulsory redundancies were identified, that that might have adverted the requirement for compulsory redundancies?

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1286

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr O'Grady, aren't you asking him just to speculate?

PN1287

MR O'GRADY: Well, I won't pursue it, your Honour.

PN1288

Now, Dr Doughney, you gave some evidence earlier about whether you had discouraged somebody from pursuing voluntary separation. Do you recall me asking you about that this morning?---Yes, I do recall.

PN1289

And I thought your answer to that question was that you had not?---That's correct, yes.

PN1290

Would you have a look at this document for me please. This is a bulletin that went out from the NTEU, bulletin number 11?---Yes.

PN1291

It was signed off on by Mr Baader?---That's correct.

PN1292

But makes reference to you being the contact person?---Yes.

PN1293

And do you accept that this is a document that does discourage people from taking up the option of voluntary separation?---I'd like a chance to read it.

PN1294

Yes, sir?---Yes, Mr O'Grady.

PN1295

Do you accept this is a document that does attempt to discourage people from taking up the option of voluntary separation?---It advises staff not to be coerced into taking voluntary separation. I think it's an important distinction that needs to be made because the context - - -

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1296

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you think, Dr Doughney, that a person reading that document could reasonably understand that the NTEU was suggesting that people not take up voluntary redundancies?---In the context where people were being approached by their deans at this stage, heads of school had been left out of the process, appointments were being made with staff to meet with their deans, and they were being told that unless they opted for voluntary separation they were at risk of involuntary redundancy and that they - another phrase that was used was in - I forget the other phrase. But at any rate that was the context in which this was presented. To the staff reading this the message would be don't be coerced. And they would understand clearly what that meant. And it also makes mention of the fact that a dispute has been lodged in the Commission regarding forced redundancies and that it would be to staff's advantage not to jump before these proceedings had been heard. So I feel it's quite appropriate advice in the circumstances.

PN1297

That's not what you were asked.

PN1298

MR O’GRADY: I put it to you Dr Doughney, that the effect of this document is to discourage staff from taking up the option of voluntary separation?

PN1299

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think the Dr Doughney has answered that.

PN1300

MR O’GRADY: Well you don’t distance yourself from this document?---I don’t distance myself from it one bit.

PN1301

I seek to tender the document.

EXHIBIT #R2 THE NTEIU BULLETIN NUMBER 11 DATED 01/06/2006

PN1302

MR O’GRADY: You would accept, wouldn’t you Dr Doughney that encouraging staff to take a voluntary separation, is one means of avoiding compulsory redundancies?---It is.

PN1303

Thank you. In any event Dr Doughney, there was then a move to phase 2 of the process?---Yes, Mr O’Grady.

PN1304

It was at that stage that individual positions were identified as positions to be made redundant?---Yes.

**** JAMES RICHARD XXN MR O'GRADY
PN1305

The individuals were notified in the way – or were notified in the letters that were attached to Mr Baader’s witness statement?---Finally yes they were. Initially each of those people who received letters were summoned to a meeting with the appropriate Dean, so there was a stage process involved.

PN1306

In the course of those meetings the individuals were asked whether they could identify any alternatives to their being made redundant?---Yes, I take your word for that.

PN1307

Well that was the effect of Mr Baader’s evidence yesterday, you were present in court yesterday when he gave that evidence?---Yes.

PN1308

Do you dispute that where suggestions were made by individuals in the course of that process the University explored those alternatives?---I’m not aware of that, no.

PN1309

You don’t dispute - I’m not trying to trick you Dr Doughney?---No, but - - -

PN1310

If you are not aware of it, I take it you don’t dispute it, I just want to make sure that you understand?---The distinction yes, you are pushing - - -

PN1311

Sorry, just bear with me sir. I have no further questions your Honour.

PN1312

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you Mr O’Grady.
Mr Thomas re-examination?

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR THOMAS [1.52PM]

PN1313

MR THOMAS: Yes, sir, I have, there won’t be many, if you just bear with me.

PN1314

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN1315

MR THOMAS: Dr Doughney, certainly you have been asked a number of questions in relation to clause 11 and clause 12, so I will take you back to where we begun. Do you have a copy of the agreement in front of you?---Yes.

PN1316

Clause 11.2 Dr Doughney, the first sentence, the University’s long term viability and sustainability will be ensured for the recruitment, development and retention of skilled and committed were rewarded for excellence, et cetera. Did the workforce with your project provide for any development and retention of skilled and committed staff?---No, it didn’t in my view Mr Thomas, none at all.

**** JAMES RICHARD RXN MR THOMAS
PN1317

So if I can take you to the 2006 budget which is - - -

PN1318

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I have it, it is behind VU19.

PN1319

MR THOMAS: It is just that every witness your Honour has submitted a copy. But if I take you to the Victoria University budget 2006, you’ve in fact attached it to your witness statement at JD3.

PN1320

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, he has it in front of him
Mr Thomas.

PN1321

MR THOMAS: Yes okay. Page 7 of that document, under the heading of 2.6 managing salaries?---Yes, Mr Thomas.

PN1322

Third paragraph, you say that they commenced that project with consideration for various options for staff re-profiling. Now that, as somebody who’s familiar with the budget, the reference to the staff re-profiling there - - -

PN1323

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just a minute Mr Thomas, the document that I have is headed Victoria University budget but - - -

PN1324

MR THOMAS: 2006, the new school of thought.

PN1325

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It seems to have something else behind the cover. It starts at the back – what page?

PN1326

MR THOMAS: Page 7, I think the version of the budget tendered in the University’s documents were back to front.

PN1327

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It is all right, are we looking at 2.6, or 2.7?

PN1328

MR THOMAS: 2.6 your Honour, which is on page 7.

PN1329

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, got that now. If I were reading in Hebrew I’d be okay, yes.

PN1330

MR THOMAS: As you see at 2.6 in the third paragraph there Dr Doughney, this has commenced during 2005 with consideration of various options for staff re-profiling. Is that a reference to the workplace renewal project and the displacement of senior academics with junior academics?---Yes, it is Mr Thomas.

**** JAMES RICHARD RXN MR THOMAS
PN1331

That in the budget $2m has been allocated in each of 2006 and 2007, so that’s a total of $4m over two years?---That’s correct.

PN1332

For reinvestment in staffing. Quite obviously in the dot points there, there’s reference to recruiting. I don’t know how you retain new staff, but in dot point 2, providing professional development opportunities for existing staff to upgrade skills and qualifications. Now that money established in the budget, does that underpin the intent of the parties to this industrial agreement at clause 11 to develop and retain skilled and committed staff?

PN1333

MR O’GRADY: I don’t know how the witness can answer that question.

PN1334

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don’t expect it?---Perhaps I could state exactly what $2m was for in each year? That was to pay the redundant, the - - -

PN1335

What’s it got to do with this case?

PN1336

MR THOMAS: The moneys sir?

PN1337

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The $2m, the $3m.

PN1338

MR THOMAS: The $4m in fact.

PN1339

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The $4m.

PN1340

MR THOMAS: The $4m well - - -

PN1341

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I fail to see the relevance at the moment, perhaps you can enlighten me?

PN1342

MR THOMAS: Okay, we are - it is to do with the retraining and retention of staff as an option to avoid the redundancies, your Honour. Much has been made about the time and cost component about - - -

PN1343

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, well I’ll allow the question. Ask it again please.

PN1344

MR THOMAS: Okay, thank you.

**** JAMES RICHARD RXN MR THOMAS
PN1345

Of that money whilst it has a global stated application, do you know of any moneys being used to provide professional development opportunities for existing staff to upgrade their skills and qualifications, in order to possibly avoid redundancy?---No, Mr Thomas, it was entirely intended to pay for voluntary separation packages and the options 1 and 2 were pre-retirement contracts.

PN1346

So you were not aware of that dot point 2 doing any work?---Nothing has been done.

PN1347

So despite the fact that the University set aside $4m to fund the workplace from your project, when it comes to 11.3 of the agreement Dr Doughney?---I’ll just open it. Yes, Mr Thomas.

PN1348

In subclause 11.3 it states that the University is committed to explore all reasonable measures to avoid forced redundancies and where possible it will pursue the options of retraining, natural attrition et cetera. With your recollection of the negotiations around that clause, to your knowledge was it ever stated that there would be any cap placed on the cost of those alternatives of the timeframe within which they would be considered for a particular individual, a group situation?---No.

PN1349

So any timelines or monetary cap were established outside of the parameters of consultation of the parties to the agreement?---That’s correct.

PN1350

But I’m right when I read clause 12 of the agreement which establishes the workplace consultative committee as a forum for formal consultation regarding the implementation?---That’s correct.

PN1351

That forum for the formal consultation, did it set any timelines or caps on the exploration of those alternatives to redundancies?---No, it didn’t.

PN1352

The workforce renewal project when first announced, was that a global project as it applied to the University in it’s entirety, both higher ed and TAFE
divisions?---There was a reference to the TAFE division, but it applied fundamentally to the higher education division and within the higher education division to academic staff members.

PN1353

It established nominal targets of 52 senior academic positions?---It established through the budget more than merely nominal targets, Mr Thomas. It set budgetary targets against which managers performance would be met.

**** JAMES RICHARD RXN MR THOMAS
PN1354

Established in that target, do you know if there was any consideration of the disciplines, or the schools of the faculties which it would apply to most?---There was never any discussion about faculties and schools when those targets were decided upon. They were decided upon in December 2005 in the budget when it was adopted by council on 5 December.

PN1355

Are you aware of any senior academics, and by this I refer to Associate Professors, and Professors, who may have indicated an interest in taking an involuntary – sorry a voluntary separation, but were rejected by the
University?---Yes, I recollect that there were some, but that the problems with those earlier rejections I think it was in the school of information systems, were later overcome. My recollection is this. That some of the staff in the school of information systems, had put their hands up for voluntary options - - -

PN1356

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And they were knocked back?---And they were knocked back.

PN1357

That answers the question, thank you.

PN1358

MR THOMAS: Do you know why those applications were rejected?---My understanding is that because forced redundancies were being contemplated at that point in that school.

PN1359

You were not aware of any applications being rejected because the University saw that particular academic, or the discipline within which they taught as a key or required area, somebody who they wished to retain?---I couldn’t comment Mr Thomas, I don’t know.

PN1360

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We now have difficulty understanding your penultimate answer. Voluntary – applications for voluntary redundancies were rejected because the school wanted to make people compulsory redundant. Why would – it doesn’t make sense?---No, it doesn’t make sense, your Honour, but that’s what they were told, that’s my understanding.

PN1361

Were those that were notified of compulsory redundancy in different positions to those who put their hands up? Is it the case that those that put their hands up were needed and those who - - -?---Not to my understanding your Honour. The – I would expect I would be grasping to try to explain the sequence of events.

**** JAMES RICHARD RXN MR THOMAS
PN1362

Mr Thomas will no doubt have an opportunity to cross-examine the University witnesses on that.

PN1363

MR THOMAS: So you weren’t aware of what reasons they may have been rejected. Was it the role of the workplace consultative committee to monitor or oversee the role out of the workplace from your project, especially phase 1 Dr Doughney?---The role of the workplace consultative committee, given in the enterprise agreement which is consultation within the University regarding implementation of the agreement. The University saw fit to bring the workplace consultative in its interim incarnation the aspects of the workforce renewal project for consultation, in a broader sense, I guess, than indicated in the agreement specifically.

PN1364

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So does that mean the answer to the question is no?---Give us the question again.

PN1365

MR THOMAS: Was it the role of the workplace consultative committee to monitor, or oversee the role out of the implementation of the workplace?---No, it wasn’t only in so far as it related to the implementation of the agreement, the EBA.

PN1366

But the workplace renewal project despite it’s objectives the work it actually did was to make - - -

PN1367

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are you asking a question or are you arguing with your own witness, or are you telling me something?

PN1368

MR THOMAS: I was – it’s in relation to Dr Doughney’s answer in relation to the EB.

PN1369

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It just sounded as though you were about to have an argument with him the way you started that question.

PN1370

MR THOMAS: But in relation to the work that EB does Dr Doughney, the EB governs the manner, the process and the reasons that deal with staff being made redundant whether that is voluntary or involuntary, there are separate processes for those?---Aspects of the voluntary process are dealt with – the voluntary separation processes are dealt with in the EBA, pre-retirement contracts are mentioned in the EBA. The particular pre-retirement contracts that the University offered in phase 1, a couple of them options 1 and options 2, the ones with loadings, are outside the EBA, but when it comes to forced redundancy the matter clearly gets right into the heart of the EBA.

**** JAMES RICHARD RXN MR THOMAS
PN1371

So where it states that the workplace consultative committee would be the forum for the formal consultation in regard to the implementation of the agreement, that matter would then rightly fall on the table of the workplace consultative committed?---Yes.

PN1372

If I can take you to one of the documents which you were questioned about and this is the email from David Nicholson dated 21 April I think for year 10?---I think I have it here, if you give me a moment. What’s the date again?

PN1373

Dated 21 April, subject, financial management report?---For year 10. No I don’t have it amongst the papers, yes okay.

PN1374

Okay, 21 April?---Yes.

PN1375

Point 7 which is included under discussion. Further resources committee confirmed it’s support for the workplace renewal project acknowledging it to be one of the key initiatives that will assist the University during mainly financially viable but to meet its academic objectives. The workforce renewal project that was well under way and established as a project process at this stage?---Yes, it was established to the University community broadly with the release of the documents in December and it was adopted as a budgetary item on 5 December 2005.

PN1376

Was this memo dated 25 April, or time surrounding that, was that the first time that the issue of the fall in international fee paying student numbers was formally brought to the attention of the University and the resources committee?---I can’t be – I can’t give a direct answer to that Mr Thomas. This is 21 April, I’m assuming that the returns would have been in on that by 31 March and that some concern would have been expressed before then. So in terms of its formal presentation, I suspect, it would not be.

PN1377

Can you recall when you first became aware of the shortfall in fee paying students?---At some time in the first quarter of 2006.

PN1378

The first quarter? The January, or the March end of the first quarter?---It would be closer to the March end, when semester is getting under way and when you’ve got a clear idea of when enrolments are occurring, it would have to be.

PN1379

So whilst we are unable to ascertain a specific date, but the workforce renewal project was already underway and being rolled out through phase 1 prior to this issue coming in to the attention of the University?---That’s right.

**** JAMES RICHARD RXN MR THOMAS
PN1380

The targets established by the workforce redundancy project were they separate in their consideration, from fee income? Was there any relationship between the establishment of the 52 senior academics and the level of fee paying student income across the University?---Only in so far as the line item in the budget for international fee revenue was set in the budget, as was the workforce renewal project and it changed that estimation for international fee income changed in the early part of 2006.

PN1381

Okay, so but this memo of 21 it certainly formed the role of alerting the University to the issue of the shortfall in funding, and the need to take action to deal with it?---Yes, it was around that time that the interest was being expressed.

PN1382

Can you look at clause dot point 8, Dr Doughney, and it says:

PN1383

Accordingly the process for making short term savings in 2006 will be conducted in a way that does not jeopardise the following structural reform programs under way.

PN1384

?---Yes

PN1385

Does not jeopardise the long term impact on the University - and there are a range of dot points there and the workforce, course renewal, research renewal
et cetera?---Yes, there are a lot of renewals there.

PN1386

Does this not establish that the workforce renewal project and measures that the University may take to deal with its changed budgetary situation as a result of the decrease in fee paying students, as separate and distinct matters?---The University always had, as I said in my response to Mr O’Grady this morning, Mr Thomas, an ambiguous attitude towards the $6m. It was at some point hitched to the workforce renewal project and it was uttered in the same breath, but the two were distinct processes.

PN1387

So what do you make of the term, does not jeopardise the following?---I take it to mean that the University wants to manage the short term savings, in such a way that it doesn’t upset the other projects that it’s got operating independently, although connected with it. It mentions there the workforce renewal, courses renewal and so forth and so on. So what it’s indicating, I would guess, is that it doesn’t want a short term clamp on spending to jeopardise the longer term projects that the University might be conceiving. That’s my reading at this point.

**** JAMES RICHARD RXN MR THOMAS
PN1388

Are you able to state whether or not the actions taken by the University to deal with it’s changed budgetary situation, have in fact jeopardised the objectives of the renewal project?---I can’t say Mr Thomas.

PN1389

Okay if we could stay with the documents that you were taken through by the University and we move to what was VU13, the minutes of the workplace consultative committee. Do you have that before you?---Yes, I have it, I could almost read them out to you.

PN1390

This obviously much was made of in relation to what determines to define staffing data and the appropriateness of it. The workplace consultative committee obviously established at clause 12 of the agreement, and without referring back to clause 12:

PN1391

The University shall provide the workplace consultative committee with appropriate staffing data to assist with the cooperative monitoring and implementation of its commitment.

PN1392

When the request was made to the committee for the provision of staffing data, what was provided, anything?---No, nothing was provided. All, if I might say, all we wanted was - - -

PN1393

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, no, nothing was provided.

PN1394

MR THOMAS: So any consideration – there was – was there any discussion at the time of what may or may not constitute appropriate staffing data?---Yes, the requests were put in, in terms of what might be appropriate and I think that was presented by the chair at the workplace consultative committee later. Fundamentally we just wanted data to enable us to know what the University was doing and planning so that we could consult meaningfully, that’s all.

PN1395

But no data was provided?---Mr O’Grady went through that with me earlier.

PN1396

But none was provided, was there an explanation provided as to why that data would not be provided?---This case.

PN1397

So they saw - - -?---Yes, because we were in proceedings or heading towards the Commission, that was the University’s reason for not providing data, stated reason.

**** JAMES RICHARD RXN MR THOMAS
PN1398

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Prior to the University giving you a reason, or not even complying, why did you notify a dispute under clause 12? What was the dispute then, had you got to that stage?---Because the University were not really consulting with us in terms of the implementation of the agreement concerning the transition to phase 2 of the workplace renewal. It wasn’t just about the provision of data. It was actually about the consulting.

PN1399

Thank you.

PN1400

MR THOMAS: In relation to the role of the consultative committee,
Dr Doughney, have you at any time ever argued about the exercise the right of veto over the actions of the University?---No.

PN1401

Thank you. Much has been referred to in the discussion today of the role of school planners in preparing themselves for the changed financial circumstances. Did the workplace consultative committee ever see any school plans, or were they ever requested at the workplace consultative committee?---They were requested, never delivered.

PN1402

When you say they were never delivered, was the provision of them denied?
---The provision of all data was denied.

PN1403

All data, so you received no documentation data at all?---That’s correct, through the workplace consultative committee, no data apart from the aggregates, apart from data concerning numbers of people who’d applied, in the broad University wide aggregates that was the only set of information that was provided.

PN1404

At item 1 of those minutes, breach of the EBA, the last comment attributed to David Nicholson, school of information systems et cetera?---Sorry, Mr Thomas, which page?

PN1405

This is VU13, the meetings of the 16 May, you have item 1 heading breach EBA, then you have the individuals with the comments attributed to the various individuals, the questions. The last set of comments attributed to David Nicholson?---Yes, information systems.

PN1406

That’s it, the school of information systems organizational change of process did not come to the workplace consultative committee because it had already gone through the consultation process. Can you tell us what that consultation process was if it hadn’t come through the workplace consultative committee, which is the forum for formal consultation, as established by the agreement?---I think that here Mr Nicholson was talking about discussions and presentation of information within the school itself that might have occurred at school meetings.

**** JAMES RICHARD RXN MR THOMAS
PN1407

Is that formal consultation within the University as established between the parties?---It is not Mr Thomas.

PN1408

Do you know if that process, albeit outside the confinements of the agreement did that produce any outcomes as far as staff changes are concerned?---I’m not sure Mr Thomas.

PN1409

The third point attributed to David Nicholson there states:

PN1410

Information systems is an emergent situation and will progress in accordance with the EBA.

PN1411

Is information systems a name of a school?---Yes, the proper name is the School of Information Systems. It’s within the faculty of business and law and deals with computing.

PN1412

Was it explained at the consultative committee what the emergent situation
was?---No, it wasn’t apart from what everyone by that stage had understood which is - that in general information systems and computing, had experienced a downturn in a number of universities across the country.

PN1413

Had any members of the school of information systems elected to take advantage of the workplace renewal project?---Some had, yes. Some had, some had put their hands up and others were being warned that they were at risk.

PN1414

When it’s stated that that emergent situation will progress in accordance with the EBA, do you know of any progress under the auspices of the EBA in regard to the situation?---No, I don’t it would have happened under clause 65 and it has not.

PN1415

Do you know whether or not any staff in that school has been made redundant, or they have been served - - -?---Yes.

PN1416

They have?---Yes.

PN1417

But those, have they taken place yet?---They’ve been served with redundancy notices and letters, yes.

PN1418

They’ve been noticed, but none of that has come through the processes as established in the EB, whether it be consultation or review.

**** JAMES RICHARD RXN MR THOMAS
PN1419

MR O’GRADY: I object to that your Honour. That’s ultimately a question for your Honour, whether or not the EB has been complied with, with respect to those balances.

PN1420

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I took the question to mean have any processes of consultation taken place purportedly under the EBA. Can you ask, answer that question of mine Dr Doughney?

PN1421

Have any processes under clause 65 commenced in respect of those people?---No.

PN1422

MR THOMAS: It was reported at that meeting that the original target of 52 under the workplace renewal program, was in fact met and exceeded?---Correct, Mr Thomas.

PN1423

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: If there’s one fact that’s agreed on, it’s that one Mr Thomas.

PN1424

MR THOMAS: As a result of that was there any discussion at the workplace consultative committee about accepting that outcome or revising the targets?
---Yes. Mr Thomas, most of page 2 of the minutes go to discussing that question.

PN1425

Was there any outcome as a result of that discussion? Was there a new target established?---No clear targets were ever articulated for us, apart from the 52 at the various academic levels.

PN1426

Was there any discussion at that meeting of the basis by which level B academics were granted voluntary departure packages, level B academics granted voluntary departure packages, and further level B academics notified of redundancy?---At this stage, no one had been notified of redundancy. The - - -

PN1427

What about the take up rate from level B’s for voluntary departure packages?
---Again, Mr Thomas, I make the point that I made before, that the whole workforce renewal project was a moveable feast and it’s targets, apart from the ones that were articulated clearly in the budget, were never articulated beyond that down to a school level. They existed somewhere, they changed, I’m sure, but as for what they were, I couldn’t tell you.

PN1428

Was it ever explained to the workplace consultative committee, why level B academics were granted voluntary departure packages, when they fell outside of the target, whether quantum and scope, of the workforce renewal project?---No, no it was never explained.

**** JAMES RICHARD RXN MR THOMAS
PN1429

In relation to the school plans mentioned Dr Doughney, they fit inside the global application of the workforce renewal project,?---Yes, at a secondary level, they were intended to fit first under the strategic plan related to staffing at the University. They were bracketed into the workforce renewal project, and their history after that is uncertain. I’ve not seen the University use the workforce plans. I’ve never heard of the workforce plans being used in terms of identifying staffing levels within the schools to allocate, potentially to say that there was a mismatch between courses and the number of staff. And nor did the University tender as evidence a workforce plan. The status of the workforce plans to me is one of the mysteries of this process.

PN1430

But did you see the work of the workforce renewal project as set in parameters around its implementation? Around the project itself, did it have a specific objective, a specific goal, an end date?---In the initial documentation and subsequent documentation, it had a time table. They varied at various points throughout the process. The budget talks about workforce renewal being a never ending saga again all I – you are asking for me to provide coherent answers about an incoherent process. I’m finding it difficult.

PN1431

Did the issue of the financial viability of the – specifically in relation to a decreasing student number, fee paying student numbers, did that formally come before any of the consultative processes within the agreement?---Sorry Mr Thomas, you’ll have to repeat that question.

PN1432

It’s all right, apologies. Sorry, your Honour, it’s just been brought to my attention that one of the other witnesses has entered the courtroom. I know we raised this matter yesterday in relation to Ms Thomas, but as she was providing the instructions.

PN1433

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I thought you withdrew your application for any orders. I’ve made no orders.

PN1434

MR THOMAS: I do apologise, it was brought to my attention. That might be in relation to Ms Thomas, as she was the only one present.

PN1435

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You didn’t ask me to make any orders, I made no orders. You now seek an order that witnesses be out of court?

PN1436

MR THOMAS: Yes.

**** JAMES RICHARD RXN MR THOMAS
PN1437

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you have any objection
Mr O’Grady?

PN1438

MR O’GRADY: No, your Honour.

PN1439

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Would all witnesses other than
Ms Thomas and Mr Baader, leave the hearing of the courtroom please.

PN1440

MR THOMAS: Thank you, your Honour, my apologies.

PN1441

We were discussing the role of the workplace consultative committee, and the consultative mechanisms in the agreement. Do you know if the issue of the University having to reposition itself, in response to the decrease in fee paying students, was that dealt with through any of the consultative processes in the agreement?---No, it’s not been Mr Thomas.

PN1442

Was it co-joined to the established processes in relation to the workforce renewal project?---Conflated would probably be a better description, the two issues came together at a certain point, they were uttered in the same breath, but that’s the point I’d make.

PN1443

Right, in your work experience as an academic, have you seen, or are you aware of, academic staff who have been successfully transferred, or redeployed from a particular teaching area to another area, from one discipline to another?---Yes,
Mr Thomas.

PN1444

So it is possible if somebody has the right qualifications as an academic, to be transferred to a different discipline?---Yes, Mr Thomas, I can give you evidence I’ve taught industrial relations - - -

PN1445

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don’t think the University contends that it’s not possible.

PN1446

MR O’GRADY: That’s the case, your Honour.

PN1447

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN1448

MR THOMAS: So, it is possible?---It is possible.

**** JAMES RICHARD RXN MR THOMAS
PN1449

Do you know of any academic staff at VU who have been redeployed or transferred in order to avoid potential redundancies under the workforce renewal project?---No one has been redeployed to my knowledge, but redeployment is not the right word. But transferred in order to do so, there’s been some suggestion within the faculty business and law, that someone has moved from information systems to I think a half time position in the Dean’s office. But that’s about all. The issue has not been investigated and explored pursued with a view to avoiding forced redundancy.

PN1450

It certainly is possible if people meet the discipline requirements?---Indeed.

PN1451

Has that ever been subject to considerations of the costs as such, or the time lines of inducting someone into a new discipline?---Not to my knowledge.

PN1452

So it is a possible. No further questions.

PN1453

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you Mr Thomas.

PN1454

MR O’GRADY: Your Honour, one matter I neglected to cover previously, and I apologise, your Honour. It just concerns the documents that Dr Doughney gave evidence of yesterday, that he says he prepared for the University with respect to University workforce re-profiling and I’d simply ask that he identify them as his, and then seek to tender them. I don’t want to ask any questions about them.

PN1455

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right.

<FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR O'GRADY [2.38PM]

PN1456

MR O’GRADY: Sorry, as a matter of courtesy I should pass it to, I think it is a contempt of the Commission if I hand you anything directly, Dr Doughney?---I wouldn’t want you to be in that position Mr O’Grady.

PN1457

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I wouldn’t want my associate to become redundant would I?

PN1458

MR O’GRADY: That’s another reason, your Honour.

PN1459

Dr Doughney, you may or may not recognise the first page. It appears on it’s face to be a briefing for counsel regarding papers submitted by you from a Rodney Diggins?---That’s right.

**** JAMES RICHARD FXXN MR O'GRADY
PN1460

What I’m interested in is could you flick through that and identify what is attachment A and attachment D, are those the two documents we spoke of earlier attachment A, You Just Wouldn’t Credit It Would You, that Victoria University professorial “re-profiling” itself, is that one of the papers you referred to yesterday?---No, it wasn’t actually. I would like to correct my evidence yesterday. I thought this one, this was the one I referred to, went out as a bulletin or as an attachment to staff. I didn’t think this one had actually gone to council. The two that I was referring to that had gone to council the first one which is titled, Poor Old Buggers.

PN1461

Yes, re-branding Victoria University academic workforce?---Yes, that one I certainly know went to University council, and another earlier one went to University council to which I was referring but that was more about Victoria University rate of casualisation in the student staff ratio. It was a different matter and I was confusing the two. In fact, these two did go to council, which is the Poor Old Buggers and You Wouldn’t Credit It Would You.

PN1462

You’ve been prolific on the top Dr Doughney?---Yes, I have been Mr O’Grady.

PN1463

In any event the two documents that I’ve handed to you are both authored by
you?---They are indeed.

PN1464

I seek to tender that as a bundle your Honour.

EXHIBIT #R3 COUNCIL BRIEFING NOTE WITH ITS ATTACHMENTS

PN1465

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes thank you Dr Doughney, you may be excused.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [2.40PM]

PN1466

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Thomas, does that conclude your evidentiary case?

PN1467

MR THOMAS: We only had the two witnesses, your Honour, Mr Baader and Dr Doughney.

PN1468

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you. Mr O’Grady?

PN1469

MR O’GRADY: Yes, your Honour if I could call Ms Sue Thomas.

<SUSAN THOMAS, SWORN [2.41PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR O'GRADY [2.41PM]

PN1470

MR O’GRADY: Ms Thomas, can you tell the Commission your full name please?---Susan Thomas, but I go by Sue Thomas.

PN1471

What is your occupation Ms Thomas?---Director, human resources at Victoria University.

PN1472

What is your business address?---(Address supplied).

PN1473

Have you prepared a witness statement for the purposes of these proceedings?
---Yes, I have.

PN1474

Do you have a copy of that witness statement before you?---I do, thank you.

PN1475

That statement runs for a total of 57 paragraphs?---Yes.

PN1476

There are some 17 attachments?---Yes.

PN1477

I seek to tender Ms Thomas’ statement.

EXHIBIT #R4 MS THOMAS STATEMENT TOGETHER WITH 17 ATTACHMENTS DATED 24/07/2006

PN1478

MR O’GRADY: Ms Thomas, at paragraph 9 of your statement you deal with an email of Mr Nicholson, dated 21 December 2005, in which Mr Nicholson stated among other things:

PN1479

This is not a redundancy date and there are not pots of gold at the end of the rainbow.

PN1480

You say in paragraph 10 that you were advised by Mr Nicholson as to the basis upon which this wording was inserted and it flowed from a conversation that he had with Dr Doughney, is that the case. I’m afraid you’ve got to answer otherwise it won’t appear on the transcript?---Yes, that is the case.

PN1481

Firstly, I don’t understand it to be disputed, but Mr Nicholson where is he currently working?---He is now not working with the University, he has another position, he is in Papua New Guinea.

PN1482

All right, you weren’t present at the conversation between Mr Nicholson and Dr Doughney that you describe in paragraph 10?---No, I wasn’t there, I was told about it by Mr Nicholson afterwards.

**** SUSAN THOMAS XN MR O'GRADY
PN1483

Do you have any doubts that that was the explanation provided to you by Mr Nicholson for the form that the email of 21 December took?---No, he’s usually very clear in his explanations, so I expect that’s very much what happened.

PN1484

Now at paragraph 49 of your statement, you detail some conversations concerning the background to clause 11?---Yes.

PN1485

Who was present when those conversations took place?---I can’t recall in detail, but certainly the majority of all of the negotiators, on both sides, the NTU and the University side, and most probably the two staff representatives.

PN1486

Now in the middle of the paragraph you express that the University raised some concerns that it could not guarantee it could effectively implement all of the range of options in clause 11 at a particular point in time?---That’s true.

PN1487

What sort of language was used to raise those concerns, do you recall?---I don’t recall the exact words, but we certainly had a number of conversations over time about clause 11. And at this particular time, the University was saying there were a number of actions in there, and those actions, or options were open to staff basically all the time. But that if we got to a redundancy stage then going through all of those at that point, would be perhaps very impractical and not reasonable. So they may not be the exact words but it was along those lines.

PN1488

Now you say that you recall Dr Doughney responding on behalf of the NTEU in respect of that matter?---Yes, we’d had over time some conversations about that the wording in that clause and it went through a number of reiterations, at one stage it was called something like, purpose of the agreement, which the University had objected to. The suggestion came that it be put under the intent of agreement and that it really was nothing the University should have a problem with.

PN1489

Was it explained why the University shouldn’t have a problem if it was under the heading of intent of the agreement?---That it was just a name, a possibility an aspiration, if you like.

PN1490

Was it ever suggested in the course of those discussions about clause 11, that clause 11 would impose substantive obligations to the University and that the University would be required to comply with before it could move to compulsory redundancies?---I don’t believe so. I think the tone of the conversation was very much, yes we understand that all of this would be onerous and no one could be expected to do this.

**** SUSAN THOMAS XN MR O'GRADY
PN1491

MR THOMAS: Ms Thomas wasn’t at the meeting, I don’t know if she can comment on the tone of the conversation?

PN1492

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I thought she said she was at that meeting?---I was at the meeting.

PN1493

MR O’GRADY: At this one?---Yes.

PN1494

MR THOMAS: I thought it was conveyed to you, sorry my apologies.

PN1495

MR O’GRADY: Just to make it clear Ms Thomas, you were at the meeting you describe in clause 49?---Yes, this was part of the EBA negotiations, not the conversation that I had with David Nicholson at which I was not present.

PN1496

I think you were responding to my question which was it ever suggested to you that this would impose substantive obligations that the University would be required to comply with before it could make people compulsorily redundant, and you were answering that question?---It was certainly not, and I used the word tone perhaps, but that’s not the best description, but certainly was not what the University team were led to believe, that that was the view of the people in the negotiations at that time.

PN1497

Can you recall what sort of words Dr Doughney used in conveying to you that this was supposed to be an aspiration type clause?---I believe he said something along the lines of well, it’s only intent, it’s only aspiration, I’m not sure if he used the words aspirations. It’s only intent, what’s the problem.

PN1498

I’ve no further questions, your Honour.

PN1499

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you Mr O’Grady.
Mr Thomas?

PN1500

MR O’GRADY: Sorry, your Honour, I do apologise.

PN1501

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You want another question do you?

PN1502

MR O’GRADY: Sorry your Honour, I do apologise for a matter of completeness I really should take the witness to the material that was distributed as part of the certification process and I meant to do that and I apologise.

**** SUSAN THOMAS XN MR O'GRADY
PN1503

Can you turn to the front of what you have there Ms Thomas.

PN1504

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: This is exhibit R1, is it?

PN1505

MR O’GRADY: I was thinking of exhibit VU2, to start off with your Honour, and then to go to R1.

PN1506

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN1507

MR O’GRADY: Do you have there the document headed, summary of Victoria University academic and all staff enterprise bargaining agreement 2005?---Yes, I do.

PN1508

How did this document come to be generated, Ms Thomas?---The University particularly the general manager, employee relations and myself were to put a document together that would be an easily read document by the staff, so that they could understand the proposed EBA and be able to vote clearly on it. I can’t recall whether we actually showed it to the NTU at that stage. But certainly as a document circulated around the University and members of staff who were NTU members would have had access to this document.

PN1509

How was it circulated around the University?---I emailed it. That is the general way we communicate with staff given the 11 campuses.

PN1510

What was the purpose of this document Ms Thomas?---It was meant to be an easy to read explanation of the clauses within the EBA or the proposed EBA. Often staff have difficulty reading an EBA document so that we wanted something that was quick and easy for them to be able to see what the clauses were and what they were intended to do.

PN1511

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now that document is not an exhibit in these proceedings, Mr O’Grady. I don’t know whether you wish to tender or not.

PN1512

MR O’GRADY: Sorry, your Honour, I thank you, I would seek to tender that document your Honour.

EXHIBIT #R5 SUMMARY OF THE PROPOSED CERTIFIED AGREEMENT

PN1513

MR O’GRADY: Could the witness please be shown the exhibit R1?

**** SUSAN THOMAS XN MR O'GRADY
PN1514

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN1515

MR O’GRADY: Ms Thomas this is a document, a statutory declaration sworn by Mr McCulloch, as part of the process for the certification of the agreement. Were you involved in the process of the certification of the agreement?---Not directly involved, but I was aware it was happening and people in my team were working on it.

PN1516

Could you turn to paragraph 6.5 and 6.6. 6.5 in the second bullet point says that the University human resources department has also circulated an email to all staff detailing the agreement. At 6.6 the first bullet point says, the University circulated a document on a number of occasions to all members of staff which explained each clause in the agreement and also the schedule to the agreement. Is that a reference to the document I showed you a moment ago, exhibit R5?---Yes, it is.

PN1517

I have no further questions, your Honour.

PN1518

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you Mr O’Grady,
Mr Thomas.

PN1519

MR THOMAS: Would it be possible to seek five minutes just to collect ourselves, your Honour.

PN1520

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I will adjourn for a short time.

<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [2.53PM]
<RESUMED [3.03PM]

PN1521

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Thomas.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR THOMAS [3.03PM]

PN1522

MR THOMAS: Ms Thomas, if I can refer you to what has been exhibit R5, which is the summary of the VU agreement, do you have a copy of that?---Yes.

PN1523

Okay I know much discussion has taken place around this with focus on clause 11. Can you tell the Commission who the author of this document was?---From memory it was the general manager employer relations and myself.

PN1524

So individuals aside, it was the University which was the sole author of this document?---That’s true.

**** SUSAN THOMAS XXN MR THOMAS
PN1525

It is, as you said, it is a summary, a quick and easy reference to the various clauses that exist in the agreement?---Yes.

PN1526

Do any of the quick and easy references provide any detail to staff as to how the various clauses in an agreement would operate or how they would work?---I can’t answer that off the top of my head, I would have to go through and find out.

PN1527

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It is what it purports to be isn’t it, it’s just a summary of the report?---I think I would have to say yes, it’s just a summary of the clauses and is not trying to tell in detail how any particular clause would be enacted.

PN1528

MR THOMAS: Okay, so with clause 11 the intent of agreement, this document doesn’t inform staff how that clause operates? Works, what work it does,?---I think if staff want to know that they can go and read the full clause.

PN1529

Yes, but this document doesn’t do work that does it?

PN1530

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think it speaks for itself Mr Thomas, that’s what it does.

PN1531

MR THOMAS: Thank you.

PN1532

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: While you are interrupted Ms Thomas, did anybody from the NTEU contact you to say what was said in that document in respect of clause 11 was wrong or misleading in any way?---No, your Honour they did not.

PN1533

MR THOMAS: You refer to clause 11 of the agreement, do you have a copy of the agreement?---I’m not sure. Sorry, clause 11?

PN1534

Yes clause 11 please. The heading of clause 11, intent of the agreement, was that an agreed heading?---It was, but it was the subject of some discussion.

PN1535

But it was an agreed heading?---Yes.

PN1536

The content of the clause, agreed as well?---Yes, it was.

PN1537

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It could hardly not been agreed, it was an agreement.

**** SUSAN THOMAS XXN MR THOMAS
PN1538

MR THOMAS: At clause 11.3 Ms Thomas if you refer to that and familiarise yourself, the second sentence, the University is committed?---The second sentence or the third sentence?

PN1539

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The third sentence.

PN1540

MR THOMAS: The second sentence, the University is committed, sorry the goal of the University is the second sentence. Obviously skip that one. The third sentence then. Could you read that.

PN1541

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just to yourself.

PN1542

MR THOMAS: Just to yourself please?---Yes, I’ve read it.

PN1543

Can you explain to the Commission the level of the University’s commitment to exploring the missions there?---I think that as that sentence says, the University is committed to exploring reasonable measures.

PN1544

All reasonable measures?---Yes.

PN1545

In your view, has that taken place?---Yes, in my view, it has.

PN1546

Then with the next sentence, where possible, can you inform the Commission where the University has pursued those range of options in relation to the workforce renewal program?---I think in my witness statement, I can’t remember the exact points, I’ve tried to do that, so would you like me to go back and go through that for you.

PN1547

You don’t need to read your statement ad nauseam. It states where possible, the possible inhibitions, are they global or are they limited to the individual per se?

PN1548

MR O’GRADY: Sorry your Honour I don’t understand the question.

PN1549

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I missed a word, but repeat the question Mr Thomas.

PN1550

MR THOMAS: I’ll withdraw that question your Honour.

PN1551

Ms Thomas in your witness statement at PN10 you say that Mr Nicholson informed you of the substance of the conversation he had with
Dr Doughney?---Yes, I do.

**** SUSAN THOMAS XXN MR THOMAS
PN1552

Were you present at that conversation?---The conversation between Mr Nicholson and Dr Doughney, no.

PN1553

So are you in a position to confirm that that is actually true, or an accurate reflection of that conversation?---I can confirm what Mr Nicholson said to me.

PN1554

I am not asking about what Mr Nicholson said to you, but are you in a position to confirm what took place.

PN1555

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: She obviously can’t because she wasn’t there, it’s hearsay evidence of what was said. It is hearsay evidence of what was said between Mr Nicholson and Dr Doughney.

PN1556

MR THOMAS: At PN5 of your statement Ms Thomas, you state in the last sentence that you were periodically requested to provide advice or ensure advice was provided about the range of consultative phases required. Could you inform the Commission of what was the substance of this advice and how it was
given?---If you look at the documentation attached to workforce renewal program documentation there are changed processes attached to that documentation so the changed processes around clause 65 and I think it’s 70 and 73, so Mr Nicholson prepared that and I was asked to comment about whether that was consistent with the EBA.

PN1557

In your view, was that consistent?---Yes.

PN1558

Thank you, your Honour I have no further questions for this witness.

PN1559

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr O’Grady do you want any re-examination?

PN1560

MR O’GRADY: Bear with me for a moment.

PN1561

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN1562

MR O’GRADY: No, I have no re-examination.

PN1563

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you Ms Thomas, you may be excused.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [3.12PM]

PN1564

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr O’Grady?

PN1565

MR O’GRADY: Your Honour, Mr Carter, who was here previously was sent on a walk outside, when during the break I asked Mr Thomas for an estimate as to timing and on that basis made arrangements with him to be back here about 3.30. I apologise your Honour.

PN1566

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It’s always risky, Mr O’Grady, but I understand Ms Thomas was far shorter than one would have anticipated in cross-examination. We can’t do anything until Mr Carter arrives, and perhaps you will let my associate know.

PN1567

MR O’GRADY: I will your Honour, and I do apologise to the Commission.

<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [3.13PM]
<RESUMED [3.20PM]

PN1568

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr O’Grady.

PN1569

MR O’GRADY: Yes, thanks your Honour, if I could call Professor Carter.

<RICHARD JOHN CARTER, SWORN [3.20PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR O'GRADY [3.21PM]

PN1570

MR O’GRADY: Mr Carter, could you tell the Commission your full name please?---Richard John Carter.

PN1571

What is your occupation?---I’m senior deputy Vice Chancellor education services, at Victorian University.

PN1572

What is your business address?---P O Box 1428, Melbourne 8001, or the corner of Ballarat and Geelong Road, Footscray.

PN1573

Have you prepared a witness statement for the purposes of these
proceedings?---Yes, I have.

PN1574

Do you have a copy of that statement before you?---Yes, I do have one here.

PN1575

Is that a statement of 35 paragraphs?---It is.

PN1576

Are there a total of 11 exhibits to that statement?---Yes, there are.

PN1577

I seek to tender the statement of Professor Carter.

EXHIBIT #R6 PROFESSOR CARTER’S WITNESS STATEMENT TOGETHER WITH ITS ATTACHMENTS

PN1578

MR O’GRADY: Professor Carter, do you have in front or in the witness box with you, a grey folder with a number of tabs?---I do.

PN1579

Could you turn to the first of those tabs. Behind that tab is there the submissions of Victoria University in this case?---Yes.

PN1580

Could you turn then to the end of those, do you see there are a number of exhibits to that, not all the way to the end of the tab, but to the end of the submission which should be stapled to a number of exhibits?---Yes, I do.

PN1581

Do you have exhibit VU1?---VU1, yes.

PN1582

Is that a number of emails associated with the ballot for the approval of the enterprise bargaining agreement?---It is.

PN1583

Are they documents that appear to have been generated by the University as part of that process?---Yes, that’s it.

**** RICHARD JOHN CARTER XN MR O'GRADY
PN1584

If I could tender that bundle as well.

EXHIBIT #R7 BUNDLE OF EMAILS ASSOCIATED WITH THE ENTERPRISE BARGAINING BALLOT

PN1585

MR O’GRADY: Could I ask you to flick through the folder until you come to VU4?---Yes, I’m there.

PN1586

Is that a document headed interim workplace consultative committee IWCC agenda?---Yes, it is.

PN1587

Attached to that are the draft minutes of the interim workplace consultative committee of 8 December 2005?---Correct.

PN1588

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So which number are we looking at?

PN1589

MR O’GRADY: VU4, your Honour. I seek to tender that document as well your Honour.

EXHIBIT #R8 INTERIM WORKPLACE CONSULTATIVE COMMITTEE AGENDA AND MINUTES

PN1590

MR O’GRADY: Professor Carter if you could move through the bundle until you get to VU9?---Yes.

PN1591

Is that some unconfirmed minutes of the University council meeting held 24 April 2006?---Yes, it is.

PN1592

I seek to tender that document as well.

EXHIBIT #R9 UNCONFIRMED MINUTES OF THE UNIVERSITY COUNCIL DATED 24/04/2006

PN1593

MR O’GRADY: The next document Professor Carter, is that a report from David Nicholson, to the University council of 21 April 2006 and also a report from David Nicholson to the resources committee dated 11 April 2006?---Yes, that’s correct.

PN1594

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Where’s the report dated 11 April?

PN1595

MR O’GRADY: As I understand it, it’s the next document your Honour before one gets to VU11, as they are numbered.

**** RICHARD JOHN CARTER XN MR O'GRADY
PN1596

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I have a memo dated 21 April, re financial management report of 31 March, that should be three pages?

PN1597

MR O’GRADY: Yes, your Honour.

PN1598

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That’s all I’ve got under that. The next document I have is the 1 May.

PN1599

MR O’GRADY: Thank you, your Honour. If I can tender in those circumstances the memo to council dated 21 April.

EXHIBIT #R10 MEMO TO COUNCIL DATED 21/054/2006

PN1600

MR O’GRADY: Can I ask you then to turn to VU14, Professor Carter?---Yes.

PN1601

Is that an email from the Vice Chancellor dated 22 May 2006?---It is.

PN1602

If I can tender that document your Honour.

EXHIBIT #R11 EMAIL FROM VICE CHANCELLOR DATED 22/05/2006

PN1603

MR O’GRADY: The next document I would ask you to turn to Professor Carter is VU17?---Yes.

PN1604

Is that a document headed, education and research board?---It is.

PN1605

If I can tender that your Honour.

EXHIBIT #R12 DOCUMENT HEADED EDUCATION AND RESEARCH BOARD

PN1606

MR O’GRADY: If you turn Professor Carter to VU19?---Yes.

PN1607

Is that a copy of the Victoria University 2006 budget?---It is.

PN1608

If I could tender that, your Honour.

PN1609

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You might provide me with one that’s printed front to back, rather than back to front if you would at some stage, Mr O’Grady.

**** RICHARD JOHN CARTER XN MR O'GRADY
PN1610

MR O’GRADY: Your Honour, if I can indicate that arrangements are in train for the preparation of a court book which will have one set of all of the documents that we have tendered through the various witnesses in chronological order for the Commission’s benefit.

PN1611

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you and the parties, so that we are all looking at the same bundle. That will be convenient thank you.

PN1612

MR O’GRADY: Yes.

EXHIBIT #R13 BUDGET FOR 2006

PN1613

MR O’GRADY: Lastly in this process Professor Carter is the next document VU20, a series of memos to the resource committee by David Nicholson?---They are.

PN1614

If I could tender that as a bundle, as well your Honour.

EXHIBIT #R14 BUNDLE OF MEMORANDA

PN1615

MR O’GRADY: Yes, thank you. I have no questions for Professor Carter.

PN1616

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes thank you. Yes, Mr Thomas?

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR THOMAS [3.29PM]

PN1617

MR THOMAS: Professor Carter, if I can take you to your witness statement please?---Yes.

PN1618

You have it there?---Yes.

PN1619

You make reference to the implementation of the workforce renewal project, page 1?---Yes.

PN1620

Has phase 1 finished?---Yes, as far as I’m – it has finished, we’ve moved into place the workforce renewal.

PN1621

When did phase 1 end?---Phase 1 ended when the acceptances by 69 academics of their the offer of early departure was accepted.

PN1622

So it was when they were accepted, as opposed to a date?---Yes.

**** RICHARD JOHN CARTER XXN MR THOMAS
PN1623

If you go to page 11, phase 2 where you refer to phase 2 of the workforce renewal project just at the top of the page?---Would you be able to refer to paragraph numbers.

PN1624

Paragraph 11, phase 2?---Yes.

PN1625

Did phase 2 commence immediately after the end of phase 1?---I find that a hard question to answer, I mean.

PN1626

Did the University take time out, sit back and assess phase 1 before it moved into phase 2?---At the end of phase 1 we had a clear look at who had accepted in terms of academic level and in terms of which schools and faculties those acceptors were from.

PN1627

Yes?---And after we analysed that it was quite clear, that we did not have acceptors in some of the areas that we felt we needed further acceptors, yes.

PN1628

The situation being as it was as you describe, did the University then proceed to discussion this situation and the outcome of phase 1 with either the workplace consultative committee, or the NTU in any formal way?---As I’m aware the University made a clear indication to the University community generally through emails that and through consultation with, by Deans with particular departments and in their faculties that there would be a necessity to move towards some compulsory redundancies.

PN1629

Yes, but I asked about did you discuss, was the matter discussed at the workplace consultative committee or the NTU?---I’m not aware of the agenda of the workplace consultative committee.

PN1630

At paragraph 14, the same page, where you list the number of those who were granted on separations, why were 18 separations granted at level B when the target of the workforce from your project were D’s and E’s?---As we moved through the phase 1 process, the necessity to achieve separations broader than just D’s and E’s and some C’s was clear because of our developing financial situation as we moved into the year. So there was agreement that any separations we could get would advantage us given our financial situation.

PN1631

Finally Professor Carter, do you see any distinction between the workforce renewal project with objectives and outcomes, and the overall financial situation of the University?---I find that a difficult one to answer. Quite clearly there is an interconnection between the workforce renewal project and the sustainable financial future of the University and the budget of the University tries to reach a situation where we will have a sustainable financial future. So there’s a connection, but whether there’s a distinction between them well, quite clearly they are two different things.

**** RICHARD JOHN CARTER XXN MR THOMAS
PN1632

They are two different things?---Yes.

PN1633

Thank you, no further questions.

PN1634

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you. Mr O’Grady?

PN1635

MR O’GRADY: I have no re-examination.

PN1636

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you Professor Carter, you may be excused.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [3.35PM]

PN1637

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr O’Grady, have you run out of witnesses?

PN1638

MR O’GRADY: I have your Honour and once again I apologise to the Commission. I had anticipated that between Ms Thomas and Professor Carter we would have been able to see the afternoon out.

PN1639

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It is probably not an unrealistic expectation in this case. But be that as it may they’re not here. We have two witnesses to go. Will the case conclude tomorrow?

PN1640

MR O’GRADY: Well your Honour, if Mr Thomas pursues the same focused cross-examination that we’ve just seen, I would have thought the evidence would conclude in the morning.

PN1641

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I asked whether the case will conclude.

PN1642

MR O’GRADY: Well then it will just be a matter of the submissions and the parties have put in submissions, so I would have thought there is a real prospect of completing tomorrow.

PN1643

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well we will adjourn until 10.15 tomorrow morning.

<ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY 9 AUGUST 2006 [3.36PM]

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

JAMES RICHARD, RECALLED ON FORMER OATH PN729
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR O'GRADY PN729
EXHIBIT #R1 STATUTORY DECLARATION MADE BY MR MCCULLOCH IN SUPPORT OF THE CERTIFICATION OF THE AGREEMENT PN807
EXHIBIT #R2 THE NTEIU BULLETIN NUMBER 11 DATED 01/06/2006 PN1301
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR THOMAS PN1312
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR O'GRADY PN1455
EXHIBIT #R3 COUNCIL BRIEFING NOTE WITH ITS ATTACHMENTS PN1464
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN1465
SUSAN THOMAS, SWORN PN1469
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR O'GRADY PN1469
EXHIBIT #R4 MS THOMAS STATEMENT TOGETHER WITH 17 ATTACHMENTS DATED 24/07/2006 PN1477
EXHIBIT #R5 SUMMARY OF THE PROPOSED CERTIFIED AGREEMENT PN1512
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR THOMAS PN1521
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN1563
RICHARD JOHN CARTER, SWORN PN1569
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR O'GRADY PN1569
EXHIBIT #R6 PROFESSOR CARTER’S WITNESS STATEMENT TOGETHER WITH ITS ATTACHMENTS PN1577
EXHIBIT #R7 BUNDLE OF EMAILS ASSOCIATED WITH THE ENTERPRISE BARGAINING BALLOT PN1584
EXHIBIT #R8 INTERIM WORKPLACE CONSULTATIVE COMMITTEE AGENDA AND MINUTES PN1589
EXHIBIT #R9 UNCONFIRMED MINUTES OF THE UNIVERSITY COUNCIL DATED 24/04/2006 PN1592
EXHIBIT #R10 MEMO TO COUNCIL DATED 21/054/2006 PN1599
EXHIBIT #R11 EMAIL FROM VICE CHANCELLOR DATED 22/05/2006 PN1602
EXHIBIT #R12 DOCUMENT HEADED EDUCATION AND RESEARCH BOARD PN1605
EXHIBIT #R13 BUDGET FOR 2006 PN1612
EXHIBIT #R14 BUNDLE OF MEMORANDA PN1614
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR THOMAS PN1616
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN1636