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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Workplace Relations Act 1996 17369-1
DEPUTY PRESIDENT HAMILTON
BP2007/3224
s.430(9)(b) - Appl’n for order to suspend or terminate a bp (endangering life)
The Chief Commissioner of Police
and
Police Federation of Australia
(BP2007/3224)
MELBOURNE
10.22AM, FRIDAY, 07 SEPTEMBER 2007
Continued from 6/9/2007
PN1907
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Friend?
PN1908
MR FRIEND: Thank you, your Honour. Your Honour, can I update you on what the course of events today is proposed? I propose to call witnesses in the following order. Senior Sergeant Ritchie, Superintendent Baker, Inspector Hodgkin, Senior Constable Thomas, Detective Sergeant Norris and Senior Sergeant Paul Mullett. Your Honour also has a statement from Mr Evans who was not available today. We're making inquiries about his availability and what we can do about that or what position we take. I'll let your Honour know through the course of the day.
PN1909
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. So you're proposing any particular day to hear Mr Evans?
MR FRIEND: Well, we'll make inquiries about when he's going to be available, your Honour. Obviously there's a certain urgency in the whole matter. Can I also, your Honour, tender just as part of our documentary case an affidavit which was made by Assistant Commissioner Ashby in relation to the ballot for industrial action.
EXHIBIT #FEDERATION 10 AFFIDAVIT OF NOEL ASHBY RE SECRET BALLOT PROCEEDINGS
MR FRIEND: I call Senior Sergeant Ritchie.
<RON RITCHIE, SWORN [10.25AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND
PN1912
MR FRIEND: Senior Sergeant, could you state your full name, please?---My full name is Ron Ritchie.
PN1913
And your address?---My work address is Level 1, 277 William Street, Melbourne.
PN1914
Are you a Senior Sergeant of Police?---Correct.
PN1915
Have you prepared a statement in relation to this matter of some 20 paragraphs?
---I have.
PN1916
Are the contents of that statement true and correct?---Correct.
I tender that, if your Honour pleases.
EXHIBIT #FEDERATION 11 STATEMENT OF RON RITCHIE
MR FRIEND: I have no further examination-in-chief.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PARRY [10.26AM]
PN1919
MR PARRY: Senior Sergeant, you're aware of the bans that have been placed by the Police Association?---Yes, I am.
PN1920
And you intend to implement the bans?---Yes, I do.
PN1921
And the officers that work in the traffic camera office will implement the bans?
---I can't speak on behalf of the other officers.
PN1922
You expect that to be the case?---I expect that to be the case.
PN1923
And that will mean that firstly there will not be the issuing of any infringement notices for the period of the ban?---That's correct.
PN1924
And that could extend for some period of time?---That's correct.
PN1925
And also another part of the ban refers to not forwarding speed camera and red light camera film for processing. Is that a relevant part of the ban?---They're forwarded for processing but they're not released.
PN1926
I just want to go through the mechanism of how the ban's going to operate?---Yes.
**** RON RITCHIE XXN MR PARRY
PN1927
You see, you've set out in paragraph 3 that the camera takes the picture?
---Correct.
PN1928
It's sent to Tenix who processes the images. Then those images are checked by Tenix, the contractor?---Correct.
PN1929
And then they go back, I assume, to the traffic camera office and what do police officers do then?---What happens is just prior to that they go through a secondary speed verification check, which is required under the government.
PN1930
Right?---Then when that's all kosher they then are sent down to the police staff at the traffic camera office who will verify each session and they will look randomly at certain images in that session.
PN1931
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: This is step 4 you're talking about, is it, in your witness statement?---That's correct, yes.
PN1932
If we could keep to that so I don't get confused. There's a series of different steps. But that's all right.
PN1933
MR PARRY: No, that's satisfactory, your Honour.
PN1934
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.
PN1935
MR PARRY: So they're verified then by police and then they're, what, released back to the contractor?---Correct.
PN1936
So your ban means they won't be released back to the contractor?---Correct.
PN1937
And what's going to happen to them, are they going to sit in the office?---They will be cued. In other words, they will sit there,
yes.
Yes, they'll just sit in the office?---Yes.
PN1938
I see, and in the normal course they would be sent out as infringement notices?
---Correct.
PN1939
And I think you've given evidence that it normally takes about 90 days after the offence for the matter to be registered with the infringements court?---That's correct.
**** RON RITCHIE XXN MR PARRY
PN1940
And if that 90 days extends to around 180 days it can't be lodged with the infringements court?---Correct.
PN1941
Right. So fairly, if the bans continue for 90 days hypothetically, then if it again takes 90 days for the matter to be registered then, it's rather likely a large number of these infringements won't be able to be pursued?---All the infringements can be issued under law. There's a 12 months' statutory limitation for the offence, but what the Infringement Act states is that you have six months to lodge it at the Infringements Court for enforcement. Now, we don't have to lodge. We can proceed by summons if we want for people that don't pay.
PN1942
But that would be a different process?---That would be a different process, absolutely.
PN1943
And that's not the normal process?---That's not the normal process.
PN1944
Let's just deal with the normal process. If the normal process is 90 days and there is a delay of 90 days in starting the normal process, then that would lead to a large number of infringements being around 180 days and that would mean that they would become a nullity?---Correct.
PN1945
Right. And a nullity means that a person who has committed an infringement would not be prosecuted for that infringement?---Under that system, correct.
PN1946
And the only way that they could be prosecuted is under a different system which you don't follow at the moment?---Correct.
PN1947
Now, when the notice goes out, the infringement goes out, there's then the option of an official warning?---That is correct.
PN1948
So it's only if the infringement is received by the person that's offended that they can then make the application for the official warning?---Yes.
PN1949
So in this period of time that the bans are going to be in place no one that has committed an infringement will be aware that they will then be able to take this option of the official warning?---That would be correct, yes, until they're served with an infringement.
PN1950
Now are you aware of the evidence given by Assistant Commissioner Ashby?
---No, I'm not.
**** RON RITCHIE XXN MR PARRY
PN1951
I just want to run a couple of propositions by you. As I understand, and I think we accept this, people who speed during the period of the bans will not get an infringement notice at all?---They will not have one served on them, that's correct.
PN1952
And the infringement notices being received would, to your understanding, act as a specific deterrent to the person who speeds?---Yes.
PN1953
And the operation of the entire traffic camera system would operate as a general deterrent?---Two - it's two-fold. To enforce the penalty for the transition of the offence and also for a deterrent.
PN1954
Yes, and you would accept that prompt issuance of the notices is highly desirable to lead to early modification of driver behaviour?---Yes.
PN1955
And you've made mention of 2001 here, but you would accept presumably that at least in the last couple of years there's been a considerable expansion in the network of cameras of the utilisation?---Correct.
PN1956
Indeed, that has led to a significant increase in the volume of work in the traffic camera office?---Correct.
PN1957
There's not been any net growth in staff in that office?---There has been additional staff added to the traffic camera office relative to the speed camera roll out, red light speed camera intersection.
PN1958
Well, Assistant Commissioner Ashby said there hadn't been a net growth of people at the traffic camera office in the last two years?---Well, we have had additional staff at the traffic camera office.
PN1959
Just to go through the sort of expansion in the network, that's been fixed radar based cameras?---Correct.
PN1960
Four banks in each direction along the Geelong road?---Correct.
PN1961
Four banks of cameras in Burnley tunnel?---Correct.
PN1962
Eight banks of cameras on the western ring road?---Correct.
PN1963
Point to point system that exists along the Hume Freeway?---Correct.
**** RON RITCHIE XXN MR PARRY
PN1964
And there's been an expansion in intersection and red light cameras?---Correct.
PN1965
And there's been, I think, my instructions are, at 160 intersections the cameras there have been given dual capacity that measures speed as well as red light offences?---83 intersections have speed red light capacity.
PN1966
And the process, once the police have processed or verified each session there are more steps taken now about reviewing and options to offenders than there were in 2001?---That is correct.
PN1967
That includes I think you've mentioned the cautions policy?---Correct.
PN1968
And I'm instructed the review policy. What's the review policy?---Under - we're required now under legislation, being the Infringements Act of 2006, that if a person requests a review of their infringement notice we have 90 days from the receipt of that infringement to get a response back to that individual. If we don't under legislation the matter is withdrawn.
PN1969
Right. So your estimate of the 90 days for an offence to be registered takes into account all those steps that need to be taken through and the options given to offenders now?---I'm not quite sure what you mean by "all those steps".
PN1970
Well, you've given evidence about the official warning step?---Yes, that's there. The 90 days is separate to the issue of the infringement. An infringement can be issued at any time. When a person then decides to write in, and they can write in any time up to lodgement at the Infringements Court, the 90 day clock then starts ticking from receipt of that.
PN1971
Yes, and I just want to be clear on when - the six month period for the registration with the Infringements Court, that six months includes the 90 days you're referring to?---The 90 days, on an internal review, the legislation extends the lodgement period by six months from the due date given if the matter is denied on the letter they receive. So in other words if you write in for a request and we deny it, we put a due date, say of 1 September. What happens then is the six months then applies from 1 September to lodge that with the Infringements Court.
PN1972
You would accept that if the bans continue for some period of time there's real risks that a number of infringements will become, or infringement notices will become null?---Possibility.
**** RON RITCHIE XXN MR PARRY
PN1973
It's a probability, isn't it?---A possibility, depending how long the bans go for.
PN1974
If they go for six months it's guaranteed, isn't it?---Guaranteed.
PN1975
Yes. Now, you say in your statement that you were in the traffic office in 2001 and you don't recall there being any identifiable increase in speeding infringements. Have you conducted any research on that?---Our statistical data indicate there was no increase that we could identify relative to the bans for speeders.
PN1976
Did you conduct research on this?---Not personally, no, but through conferences and meetings.
PN1977
You are aware that in that period over the bans there are a number of other media and other steps being taken to address speeding issues?---Correct.
PN1978
So there are a number of other factors that play out during that period, wasn't there?---Yes, there was - yes.
PN1979
And you also give an example of the speed cameras on the western ring road being shut down and you say that mobile speed cameras were used and there was an increase in TMU radar guns being used on the ring road over this period. Presumably your point there is that the increase in the TMUs on the ring road addressed the problem of the cameras not working?---Yes, in conjunction with speed camera mobile vehicles also being deployed.
PN1980
Right. So can I take it that it's logical from that, if there's a decrease in the TMUs, that factor won't be present?---But again I can't really answer that. It's a possibility, yes.
PN1981
Well, it's a probability on the basis of the logic you've advanced in that paragraph, isn't it?---Depending on the availability of TMUs. They were sourced for that particular western ring road and rostered accordingly for that.
PN1982
If you take away the operation of the speed camera system and reduce the number of TMUs on the road, there is going to be an increase in the number of speeding infringements, isn't there?---Yes.
Yes, thank you. If your Honour pleases.
**** RON RITCHIE XXN MR PARRY
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND [10.40AM]
PN1984
MR FRIEND: Mr Ritchie, you were asked about what happened in relation to the six months?---Yes.
PN1985
And the infringement notices and you talked about proceeding by summons?
---Yes.
PN1986
Can you just explain to his Honour what you meant by that?---The Act allows us, where notice is not paid, to proceed in open court by the service of a summons. It's not something that our - that we do, but we can do it if we are required to do.
PN1987
So if the six month period has expired because, for instant, as my learned friend said, the bans went on for six months and the six
months period expired before the notices issued, are you able still to issue a summons or are you unable to do that?
---We have 12 months from the date of offence to issue a summons for a person to appear in open court.
PN1988
So how long would the bans have to continue before you were unable to deal with them by summons, to deal with the offences by summons?---You've got 12 months.
PN1989
12 months, all right. You were asked about Mr Ashby's statement that no net increase in staff. You said there'd been additional staff. How many over the last two years?---We have now I think a total of, I think, sworn from memory, around 26 sworn. When the speed red light camera roll out was given the government allowed us, I think, an extra five staff.
PN1990
Five?---Yes.
PN1991
So that was a 25 per cent increase in staff?---Yes.
PN1992
You were also asked about whether you had personally conducted any statistical research. You said you were aware of statistical figures through conferences and meetings?---Yes.
PN1993
Can you explain what you learnt from those conferences and meetings about whether or not there was an increase - - - ?---Well, obviously in the 2000 EB when we started to re-issue the infringements and send them out, we had meetings relevant to the impact on the office and any spikes that we could see when we weren't issuing and it was just found that there was nothing there that we could really identify that caused us any great concern relative to motorists speeding more.
**** RON RITCHIE RXN MR FRIEND
PN1994
When you caused you to have any great concern, what do you mean by that?
---Well, simply the fact that I was comfortable with the fact that because motorists were aware that they were going to still receive
their infringement notice at a later stage, that there was a lot of media given that the cameras were still active, still enforcing
and still taking images and I think that gave us some comfort that motorists still knew that they were still going to get an infringement
notice down the track.
PN1995
Is it your understanding the bans of the cameras are going to stop or continue during the ban?---The cameras will still be active, films will still be loaded and downloaded.
PN1996
And so in that regard is there anything different between this ban and the ban in 2001?---No.
Thank you, Mr Ritchie.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.43AM]
<IAN LEONARD CLARK BAKER, SWORN [10.44AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND
PN1998
MR FRIEND: Is your name Ian Baker?---Ian Leonard Clark Baker.
PN1999
You are stationed at Nunawading Police Station?---I am.
PN2000
You are a superintendent of police?---Yes.
PN2001
You prepared a witness statement in this matter?---I have.
PN2002
Of 35 paragraphs and one attachment?---Yes.
PN2003
Are the contents of that statement true and correct?---They are.
I tender that, if your Honour pleases.
EXHIBIT #FEDERATION 12 STATEMETN OF IAN LEONARD CLARK BAKER
PN2005
MR FRIEND: Your Honour has the attachment?
PN2006
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I do indeed, thank you very much.
PN2007
MR FRIEND: Yes, thank you.
PN2008
Mr Baker, can I ask you whether you were on operational duties during the Commonwealth Games in 2006 in Melbourne?---I was.
PN2009
Can you explain to his Honour what happened in relation to allocation of police to dealing with issues in relation to the Games?---There was a planning group who were responsible for making sure we had the correct resources, the correct planning. There was a structure put in place to address all those various issues and ensure the - address issues such as community safety, security of the VIPs and the like, and to do that resources were brought in from across the State.
PN2010
And were resources taken from other areas to achieve that?---Yes. Every day, every single police station had to provide resources pretty well across the State.
**** IAN LEONARD CLARK BAKER XN MR FRIEND
PN2011
In your experience, in your area, in relation to, say, traffic management, was there any effect on traffic management during Commonwealth Games?---There was. From my particular area and I have three traffic management units attached to it, people who were qualified as solo drivers had to do training, special training. They were also taken away to do the escorts around Victoria of the Commonwealth torch and then they were assigned duties at the Commonwealth Games for the entirety of the Commonwealth Games.
PN2012
So in relation to that what happened to the duties that they ordinarily performed?
---Well, it was greatly diminished.
PN2013
For what period was that?---I think it was for a period - I think the Commonwealth Games went for roughly 11 days but the actual people performing the solo duties and other duties, it was a longer period.
PN2014
When you say greatly diminished, can you be more specific?---Well, look, I couldn't give you exact figures but I know that I did lose a number of people doing those type duties.
PN2015
And were patrols diminished or did they remain the same?---They were diminished.
Thank you, your Honour.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PARRY [10.48AM]
PN2017
MR PARRY: Superintendent, as I understand, during the Commonwealth Games leave was banned for police officers in the State?---That is correct.
PN2018
So there were far more police that were on active duty than there would be at any normal time of the year?---That is correct. There's roughly 17 and a half per cent at any one time on leave.
PN2019
So you had that extra 17 and a half per cent that weren't on leave over that period?---Yes.
PN2020
And your evidence about greatly diminished ordinary duties, that's not a satisfactory position to have diminished ordinary duties, is it?---Well, it's not satisfactory but it's something that we have to manage on a daily basis.
**** IAN LEONARD CLARK BAKER XXN MR PARRY
PN2021
But it's unsatisfactory as far as you're concerned being a superintendent in charge of the area you are?---I prefer not to have to deal with it, yes.
PN2022
No, and the diminishing of traffic duties, I think one was greatly diminished and one was diminished. Again that's something you'd prefer not to deal with, isn't it?---I would.
PN2023
Now, your statement deals with a lot of material about statistics and the statistical ban. You're aware of that ban?---I am.
PN2024
That's a ban on creating or collecting statistical information?---It's not on the collection of it. Statistics are still gathered, they're still submitted.
PN2025
Statistics are still submitted. You see the ban says "to ban the preparation and provision of statistical information". That would suggest that the preparation of the statistical information is to be banned?---Well, that's not the interpretation of what I'm getting at. I'm getting at the submission of forms like LEAP reports and the like. They're submitted and they become statistical information. They're still submitted.
PN2026
Have you seen the bans, superintendent?---I have.
PN2027
What I might hand you is a document, just so I can understand what your interpretation of the bans is. Hopefully I'm handing the witness a copy of the application of the attachments your Honour had initially marked a number of them as exhibits.
PN2028
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I remember.
PN2029
MR PARRY: I did not mark - I don't - - -
PN2030
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, the full application of the attachments, yes.
PN2031
MR PARRY: Now, what I'm looking at at the moment is a document dated 17 July 2007 and underneath that "clarification of industrial action proposed".
PN2032
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Police 2.
PN2033
MR PARRY: Police 2. Do you have a copy of that?---What page is it on?
**** IAN LEONARD CLARK BAKER XXN MR PARRY
PN2034
It will be about - - -
PN2035
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ten pages in, something like that.
PN2036
MR PARRY: Ten pages in or so, yes?---Is that the one "Clarification of industrial bans proposed"?
PN2037
"Industrial action proposed". Yes, I think you've got it there, Superintendent. Now, ban 4, "banning preparation of provision of statistical information to the Victorian Police Force." Do you intend implementing that ban?---Do I?
PN2038
Yes?---Yes, I do.
PN2039
And that includes, as you can see on the right, "all statistical information for use at all levels of Victoria Police including statistics prepared by DIMU, RIMU and for use by tasking committees in regions. Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN2040
Are you clear on what statistical information is so banned?---I am.
PN2041
You are sitting in tasking committees in regions?---I do.
PN2042
And presumably tasking committees perform important roles?---They do.
PN2043
If I could just move on through the document in front of you, I'm getting to a document which has got on the front of it:
PN2044
It's time government felt the pinch. Police industrial action starts 26 August 2007 at 12 noon.
PN2045
?---Yes.
PN2046
And on the next page over that it has -
PN2047
What this ban means.
PN2048
?---Yes.
PN2049
And it's added in there on the right hand side -
**** IAN LEONARD CLARK BAKER XXN MR PARRY
PN2050
Members should not complete running sheets.
PN2051
Are you comfortable with them being statistical information?---I don't believe they are statistical information, running sheets, no.
PN2052
Right?---But I'm comfortable with not submitting running sheets.
PN2053
All right. So although they're not statistical information you're comfortable not submitting them. Official diaries, are they statistical information?---No.
PN2054
Again, you're going to follow this clarification and not complete those?---Well, I would if I was at work but I'm currently off on sick leave this week, but I will when I get back, yes.
PN2055
And area forms, are they statistical?---They are.
PN2056
And you're not going to complete them?---I don't.
PN2057
And if I could go on a couple of documents further it's got -
PN2058
Put the pinch back on crime, bans advice, frequently asked questions.
PN2059
And they go to bans, ban 4 again?---Yes.
PN2060
Do you see it says:
PN2061
Do I complete LEAP forms, TIS or CJEP?
PN2062
Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN2063
And it says:
PN2064
Members should complete only the information in the LEAP forms that are non statistical in nature.
PN2065
?---Yes.
PN2066
Do you believe it's easy to identify what's non statistical in nature in LEAP forms?---Well look, I couldn't answer that. I've never filled in a LEAP form. I’m familiar with them. I would have to really go over and have a look at the form.
**** IAN LEONARD CLARK BAKER XXN MR PARRY
PN2067
Right, okay. Do you know what LEAP forms are used for?---I do.
PN2068
They provide information to the police force and they provide information to the intelligence analysts?---They do.
PN2069
And the intelligence analysts use that information to prepare reports for the tasking committees?---Look, I think you're simplifying it. The major thing they do is they record a crime that has been committed and that then initiates an investigation and that's what happens to a LEAP report. Secondary to that it then goes off to the DIU for analysis.
PN2070
Right. But it goes to - sorry, I might have been simplifying it, but it goes to the DIU for analysis. That analysis is carried out and that analysis is provided to tasking committees?---It is.
PN2071
And it assists in the tasking process?---It does.
PN2072
So if LEAP forms are partially completed that will affect the material that gets to the tasking committee?---Well, the bans mean that that information's not even getting to the tasking committee full stop anyhow.
PN2073
Right, I see?---But if I could say, because of our commitment to these bans not impacting on public safety we have made arrangements with our DIU to do a presentation, a verbal presentation to our tasking committee when they next meet to overcome this issue so that community safety is not comprised.
PN2074
Is that DIU going to, in that verbal presentation, going to give statistical information to you?---They will give information in relation to trends as they identify them and any identified issues.
PN2075
Do you know - sorry?---Statistics are not the relevant issue that comes before a tasking coordination committee.
PN2076
That's in your area. Do you know what's going on in other areas?---Well, my area was a pilot for Project Nimbus. I was one of the initial one of two areas that was picked out for the implementation of Project Nimbus which was the tasking coordination and the like and I’m very familiar with what has been implemented across the state.
**** IAN LEONARD CLARK BAKER XXN MR PARRY
PN2077
Yes. I'm not concerned about Project Nimbus, I'm concerned about - - - ?---Well, that is the basis of what tasking coordination committees are based on, Project Nimbus.
PN2078
I'm concerned about your practice that you say you will implement when you go back to work next week of having verbal presentations
from the DIMU analyst?
---Right.
PN2079
Right. You don't know what's going on in any other area, do you?---No.
PN2080
And do you use in your tasking of people in your area, do you use the information on the Victorian Police intranet?---Do I personally?
PN2081
Yes?---I monitor various forms of information on the internet.
PN2082
Are you aware that the intranet contains details weekly hot spot maps?---On VicOPS, yes.
PN2083
And it also contains those hot spots in respect of thefts from motor cars, thefts from properties and so forth?---Yes.
PN2084
And you consult those regularly?---No, I don't. I have been trained in VicOPS. It's a very complex system to get into. I'm in the process of getting it set up so that it will produce the reports from me. But I can't sit in front of a computer all day and watch crime trends. That would be diminishing my area of responsibility.
PN2085
Well, that's why you have analysts, isn't it?---That's one of the reasons, yes, and I rely mainly on them to provide me with some of that information but the main source of information that I rely on is my detectives and my people out in the field who know what's going on on a daily basis and they act upon that information on a daily basis. I can't wait for a report from an analyst on a monthly basis to act. I've got to act on the information as it comes in. It's got to be timely.
PN2086
Right And the information that your analysts use, you accept that part of that's based on these statistics prepared by officers? The information the analysts present to you is based on statistics prepared by officers in the field?---Yes, mainly.
PN2087
And the ban means those statistics are not going to be prepared?---No, I don't believe that's correct. The LEAP reports will still be submitted. That's the main basis of what the analysts look at. Those reports are still put in.
**** IAN LEONARD CLARK BAKER XXN MR PARRY
PN2088
But not the statistical parts of the LEAP reports?---But that's not going to stop them being submitted and being the subject of analysts. I can't see that happening.
PN2089
But you haven't filled in a LEAP form for years. You don't know which parts of it are statistical and which parts aren't?---I know but I still can't imagine that when we've got material put in on LEAP that it's not the subject of being able to be analysed. It will have time, date, place, location. It will have all those things on it. They will be filled in and that is the basis of most of our analysis.
PN2090
But not all?---Time, date, place. They are the most important things when you're looking at crime.
PN2091
You're taking away a policing tool there, aren't you, by not relying on the statistical information and its analysis?---No, you're not.
PN2092
You're not?---You're not.
PN2093
All right. Now, I think you say in your statement indeed that -
PN2094
The actions and strategies that the station's units identify when crimes or traffic issues are reported or are identified are not reliant on any statistical reports. While they are useful they are not critical.
PN2095
?---That is correct.
PN2096
Right. So I think your evidence sworn to is that the statistical reports are useful. Why are they useful?---Well, you never dismiss any type of information that you get. I think what gets lost in all of this is that when a crime happened it's the subject of crime screening by the uniform branch. If it falls into the category that they've got to investigate it, they investigate it and it is managed at their level. If it's a crime that falls into the responsibility of the CIU they are either contacted to attend the scene or they are spoken to when the members return to the station or a message is left in their message book to attend that scene. That is the genesis for the initiation of all crime scene investigations and out of that the local managers know what is going on in their immediate area.
PN2097
Well, let's leave crime investigation itself. What about proactive policing, dealing with things that crimes that might not have occurred yet whereby there's statistical material showing a trend or showing particular areas. That's useful information, isn't it, in proactive policing?---Look, we don't - - -
**** IAN LEONARD CLARK BAKER XXN MR PARRY
PN2098
Well, is that true or not?---Well, I was going to explain it but it is useful, yes.
PN2099
Yes, thank you. Now, working one up, I take it from your statement that you're an opponent of police officers working one up in any circumstances?---I have been for a long time.
PN2100
And that's been your consistent position for a long period of time that police officers should never work one up?---Yes.
PN2101
Right. You accept that the reality of policing in Victoria is that much policing is done one up?---It is, yes.
PN2102
And I think you've referred to 251 sergeants and 265 senior sergeants. Those are at present shifts that are during the day time worked one up?---They do.
PN2103
In your area?---Yes.
PN2104
And I take it that the 251 and 265 supervision shifts are what, always performed one up during day time?---All the time they are.
PN2105
All times. So you're going to implement the ban and make sure it's implemented in your area in respect of those supervision shifts?---Yes.
PN2106
That means that there must be two people in the vehicles on those shifts?---Yes.
PN2107
That will presumably reduce the number of supervision shifts?---No.
PN2108
Well, how many people are going to be out there? There's going to be more people in less cars, isn't there?---No.
PN2109
There are not?---No.
PN2110
So you're saying - - - ?---I actually believe by putting an extra person in each of those cars we will increase the number of patrols, we'll increase police visibility, we will increase the number of suspects and vehicles intercepted and I believe that it will have a positive impact and I also believe, most importantly, that it will reduce the members exposure to threats out in the community.
PN2111
Right. The other patrols that you've just mentioned, you presumably have TMUs in your area?---I do.
**** IAN LEONARD CLARK BAKER XXN MR PARRY
PN2112
How many?---I have three.
PN2113
How many cars is that?---Look, I’m not really sure how many TMU cars I have got but it's probably around the 16.
PN2114
And they are generally, or how often are they one up?---Regularly one up.
PN2115
Right. And you will enforce the ban and make these patrols two up?---Well look, I don't enforce the bans. I can't make people work two up. That's up to the individual members. I can't direct people to work to a ban but I would expect that most people will do that. If I talk about myself and application of the bans I can tell you what I will and won't do, but I can't tell you how other members are going to react.
PN2116
All right. If the practice becomes that there are two people per vehicle rather than one, I would suggest the consequence of that will be less patrols?---It will probably will be in the TMUs case, yes.
PN2117
And with regard to the crime investigation unit, you have a crime investigation unit?---Yes.
PN2118
And that generally operates one up?---It does.
PN2119
And if the bans are implemented will operate two up?---Yes.
PN2120
That will decrease the number of crime investigation units?---No.
PN2121
Well, I'm assuming that these are trained people?---They are.
PN2122
So if there must be two people per unit there will be a lesser number of CIUs out and operating?---No, that's not how CIUs operate. Most of their investigations are conducted in the office, telephone inquiries and the like. They're not patrolling around.
PN2123
What about attending crime scenes?---Yes, they attend a crime scene but that's not going to - there's only one unit rostered for that. To work two up is not going to diminish the visibility of them.
PN2124
But if there's two crime scenes that need investigating at the same time, at the moment you would have one CIU going one up to one crime scene and the other CIU unit going one up to the other crime scene. That's logical, isn't it?---Yes, but there's - whether they're two up or one up is not going to diminish the number of cars that are on the road, not at all, not in the CI. It won't affect them.
**** IAN LEONARD CLARK BAKER XXN MR PARRY
PN2125
All right. Now, are you aware of ban 15? You probably still have this document?---I am.
PN2126
Ban 15 is one that says -
PN2127
Members shall process shoplifting and drug offences by summons only.
PN2128
And I think the explanation says -
PN2129
Ban applies to cautioning notices for shop stealing offences and drug offences and diversion programs for drug offences.
PN2130
You're aware of that?---Yes.
PN2131
And you see that ban as being implemented?---I believe it will be, yes.
PN2132
In your region what, in the last financial year do you have any idea how many cautions were handed out for shop stealing?---No, I couldn't tell you that.
PN2133
I suggest the figure is around about 845?---That would probably be correct.
PN2134
And for cannabis cautions, 81 in the last financial year in your region?---That could be correct.
PN2135
And so these shop stealing cautions, what occurs when your office is contacted and a shopkeeper says, well, I've got some child probably, or even an adult that I've caught stealing and the police officer attends, is this a fair summary?---Yes.
PN2136
And you've got an unhappy shopkeeper and you've got either a juvenile or another person, an adult, and who has stolen a small item, perhaps less than $100, and in those circumstances the police officer has the discretion of saying rather than charging you on summons and taking you to court I'm going to give you an official caution which is recorded?---If they meet the criteria, yes. There is criteria before you can give a caution.
PN2137
The criteria are admission to the offence, that it's worth less than $100, that there are no other exacerbating circumstances?---Yes.
PN2138
Right. And presumably this option of giving a caution is a desirable thing?
---Well, some people disagree with that. It's seen as a way of speeding up a process which is looked upon as a menial task. Most
people in Victoria Police don't look on shoplifting as a serious crime. I personally take a far more serious view of it. Nearly
all our professional criminals, that was the basis of their criminal record, you'll see nearly all of the first offences are shoplifting
- - -
**** IAN LEONARD CLARK BAKER XXN MR PARRY
PN2139
Right - - - ?--- - - - start of crime.
PN2140
Well, you're in the witness box I suppose. You see shoplifting as a serious matter?---I do.
PN2141
And you've identified that. The option of giving a caution for a juvenile who's caught shoplifting is a good option, isn't it?---Well, once again I've got strong views on that. I believe that if you haven't got a follow up program to support that caution, that youth or young person is still likely to run off the rails. We haven't got support programs other than all we do is bring the parent in, they're issued with a caution and then the contact with the Victoria Police and that youth vanishes. It doesn't continue and I really believe you need support programs. Whilst I don't discourage it I'm not entirely in favour of it.
PN2142
All right. Well, your ban - well, not your ban, but the ban that's coming into existence means that cautions aren't going to be issued any more, right?---Yes.
PN2143
So then the options are for the police officer with this shoplifter simply to let the shoplifter go with nothing. That's not very desirable, is it?---Well, I don't believe that's an option.
PN2144
It's not an option, is it?---That's right.
PN2145
Because then you're going to have a very unhappy shopkeeper, right?---Well, you'll have more than that. You could have dereliction of duty.
PN2146
So what's the other option, we charge the person?---Yes.
PN2147
So that's going to be, on the figures in your area, some 845 people that are going to be charged with offences for shop stealing when they wouldn't have been in the last financial year?---Well, no, I don't believe those figures are correct. You're looking at the bans being in place for a year. I don't believe that will happen.
PN2148
All right. Well, let's assume that that 845 is 15 to 20 a week?---That's across the region.
PN2149
So that's 15 to 20 per week that are going to be charged on summons?---Yes.
PN2150
And they're going to be some young people that are going to be put into the criminal justice system?---Yes.
**** IAN LEONARD CLARK BAKER XXN MR PARRY
PN2151
Do you have any view whether it's desirable to put young people into the criminal justice system for first minor shoplifting offence?---It's still a criminal offence.
PN2152
All right. And the cannabis cautions, that's a couple of week - well, one and a half a week?---One, yes.
PN2153
All right. Two every three weeks. That's a diversion program as well for cannabis, isn't it?---Yes.
PN2154
So it does have the sort of follow up you're referring to?---There is follow up, yes.
PN2155
So that's a good program?---Yes.
PN2156
And it's going to be banned?---It is.
PN2157
And so accordingly, again perhaps a young person that is taken into custody in your region is now going to be either let off after
committing a criminal offence with nothing or charged on summons and put into the criminal justice system?
---Yes.
PN2158
And that's not a desirable pair of options, is it?---Look, I suppose it's debatable with cannabis. I'm not trying to say yes or no. I probably would prefer that they weren't brought into the criminal justice system for cannabis but by the same token, if you look at the impact of cannabis today on society and the schizophrenia that's out and the mental health, I think another strategy is going to have to take place with marijuana.
PN2159
The diversions programs are part of that, aren't they?---They are.
PN2160
Yes, thank you. Nothing further.
PN2161
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Any re-examination?
MR FRIEND: Yes, your Honour, thank you.
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND [11.16AM]
PN2163
MR FRIEND: Superintendent Baker, you talked about the trained, I think you said it was a VicOPS and it was a very complex system in terms of the intranet, do you recall that?---I did, yes.
**** IAN LEONARD CLARK BAKER RXN MR FRIEND
PN2164
When was that training?---It was approximately six months ago. We had to - VicOPS was coming on line and no training had been arranged so I arranged it for my officers and they came ahead and delivered it. But the actual VicOPS, I don't think it's been rolled out across the state. Certain areas haven't got it, and there is a lapse - I think there's a funding issue with it and I understand that it is limited in access. I could be wrong. I think it might go down to either inspector senior sergeant. But it's not a system that's readily accessible to all members.
PN2165
When you go on the intranet on a computer do you walk up to any computer and just start or do you have to log in?---You've got to log in.
PN2166
And are the same things available for an inspector as for a constable or senior constable?---No.
PN2167
The crime hot spot maps, are you aware of those?---Yes.
PN2168
What level are they available to?---Look, I think senior sergeant or inspector. That's on the computer system.
PN2169
Thank you. You said that by not having statistical information they were not taking away a policing tool. Why did you say that?---Well look, the reason is with project members where we've got our tasking coordination committees that's only been - we ran the pilot, commencing the pilot two years ago. It's only been implemented in the last two years. It was run a pilot, bedded in and it's only in probably the last 12 months that it's actually been rolled out across the state in relation to tasking coordination and the various standardisation of products that the division intelligence unit now do for everybody. So that's in the last 12 months.
PN2170
But I also go back to in the year 2000 I was responsible for ensuring a state of readiness in an operational sense for Victoria Police Now, in year 2000 we were looking at Armageddon, the end of world with computers and what we had to do was look at if we haven't got the computers, that was the forecast that was going to happen, how we are we going to get around it and the number 1 risk that we came up with was our inability to meet demand for service, nothing about computers. We were able to deal and develop up contingencies without computers, without intelligence, so that we could basically run the force without computers for some period of time. We could still address community safety and the world wouldn't end and I strongly believe that most of our work is generated by the submission of crime reports and the actions taken at local level rather than generated by our DIU and statistics. That doesn't happen and that's the reality.
**** IAN LEONARD CLARK BAKER RXN MR FRIEND
PN2171
Thank you. You gave some evidence about 251 and 265 patrols and said that putting an extra person in those patrols would actually increase patrols. Can you explain how that would be?---Well, currently if a member is one up they're apprehensive about pulling vehicles over. They're apprehensive about dealing with suspects. I know that in my particular area when I look at the computer aided dispatch material in our strategic assessment, which was one of the projects under Project Nimbus, the number 1 group of calls we get is related to behaviour and we are continually - the number 1 call is youths causing trouble, brawls, noise, those type of complaints and members are reluctant to go to those type of calls one up because of their safety and the other increasing call we get which members would not go to one up, we get family violence incidents which you can't go to one up and the other one is we're getting a lot of mental health issues and they're extremely dangerous to go one up and creating a lot of management issues across the various police regions.
PN2172
All right. Now, you were also asked about CIU operations and you said that having people going two up wouldn't reduce - or that it wouldn't be fewer I think, CIU operations. Can you explain what you meant by that?---Well look, for a start, the CIU cars are unmarked so as far as visibility goes you wouldn't even know that they are a police vehicle generally. But on top of that too, the nature of the inquiries as they go out it's usually an office where you haven't got at any one time all your vehicles out being two up. They're not doing normal patrols, they're conducting investigations and in no way would the office service be compromised by them going two up.
PN2173
Thank you. The cautions program, the 800 and something over your area over a year works out at about 16 a week, if those people are charged on summons, let's take it in two steps, if they're juveniles they'll go to the Children's Court, what will happen when they get to the court?---Well, I'm quite sure all the available evidence would be put before the court and the court would also take into account that these matters are before them as a result of bans and the presiding Honour would deal with them in the appropriate manner.
PN2174
MR PARRY: It's speculation about what might ultimately happen in the Children's Court.
PN2175
MR FRIEND: Did you listen to Mr McCrae's evidence?
PN2176
MR PARRY: Well, I'm objecting to this.
**** IAN LEONARD CLARK BAKER RXN MR FRIEND
PN2177
MR FRIEND: I was just asking really they will come and be dealt with by the court in the ordinary way?---Yes.
PN2178
Are there any diversionary programs in the Children's Court?---Yes.
PN2179
Do people have to be convicted if they plead guilty or are found guilty or can they be given a bond?---No, they don't have to be convicted.
PN2180
Is there any difference for people before the Magistrates Court, in other words, do people have to be convicted there or they can be given a bond?---No, there's diversionary programs there too.
PN2181
And can they be discharged without conviction?---Yes.
PN2182
Even if the matter is found proven?---Mm.
PN2183
Thank you. Nothing further.
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right. Thank you very much for giving evidence. You're excused.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.24AM]
PN2185
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hodgkin?
PN2186
MR FRIEND: Yes, your Honour.
PN2187
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Actually I might have a quick break while that's being arranged.
<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.24AM]
<RESUMED [11.37AM]
PN2188
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right where are we?
MR FRIEND: Thank you, your Honour I call Bob Hodgkin.
<ROBERT BRUCE HODGKIN, SWORN [11.37AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND
PN2190
MR FRIEND: For the record could you state your name again please?---Robert Bruce Hodgkin.
PN2191
Your work address?---I’m an inspector at region 1 headquarters Victoria Police Centre.
PN2192
Have you prepared a statement for this matter which is 12 paragraphs long and is headed with words Bob Hodgkin?---That’s true, yes.
PN2193
Do you have a copy of that there?---Yes.
PN2194
Are the contents of that statement true and correct?---Yes.
I tender that if your Honour pleases.
EXHIBIT #FEDERATION 13 WITNESS STATEMENT OF ROBERT HODGKIN
PN2196
MR FRIEND: Mr Hodgkin were you aware of the effect on police operations in the Commonwealth Games in 2006?---Yes.
PN2197
Are you aware how many shifts extra shifts were required for the Commonwealth Games?---The Commonwealth Games were about 36,000 shifts.
PN2198
Nothing further, if your Honour pleases.
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That’s it, thank you Mr Parry?
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PARRY [11.38AM]
PN2200
MR PARRY: Inspector, you give some evidence about the use of volunteers and you refer to a time earlier in the year when you weren’t able to use volunteers for events. When was that?---It was probably the first half of the AFL season and some of last year, the last season.
PN2201
Would you accept that the period we are coming into now would be AFL finals and the spring racing carnival, would probably be the highest usage in the year for voluntary duties?---Probably yes.
PN2202
Well it’s certainly the position isn’t it?---Well it may be. Some days, some weeks during the year we would have five AFL games a weekend and that’s a maybe just as equal an impost as what it is now for the finals, where we only have one game.
**** ROBERT BRUCE HODGKIN XXN MR PARRY
PN2203
Right when you weren’t able to use volunteers earlier in the year you had to roster members to attend events?---Yes, that’s true.
PN2204
That meant taking members from other areas?---Yes.
PN2205
As I understand the position that meant that in some other regions there needed to be patrols cut?---We didn’t go to other regions. We only did our own region.
PN2206
All right well in that there was when you did roster members to attend events, you took members away from other normal duties, so that meant that there was the cutting of?---Foot patrols for example, well that could have been the case, but that wasn’t my concern, my concern was to get the people to the sporting event and how they did it at a local level I don’t know.
PN2207
They might have cut their TMUs as well?---No.
PN2208
Not necessarily?---Well we wouldn’t have used the TMUs.
PN2209
All right so probably an impact on foot patrols?---Maybe yes.
PN2210
But as you say that wasn’t your concern, because all you were concerned about was filling your roster for the events that you were trying to cover?---That’s true and it’s a decision the local managers would make, what they did.
PN2211
The position is that when you roster now in the absence of voluntary duties to fill the football finals and the spring carnival again you’ll be bringing in officers from your region and other regions?---Yes, I believe so.
PN2212
It’s up to those particular regions themselves how they deal with the shortages that flow from that?---Yes.
PN2213
It may be that there’s cuts in patrols?---Well there may be, there may be not I’m not too sure.
PN2214
That’s not your concern, as you say?---No, well I don’t do it any more. I left special events five weeks ago.
PN2215
All right so really the spring carnival and the football finals aren’t your concern any more?---They may be my concern, as I may have to go and be the inspector at each of the events, but there are others who are on now, but I know how they do it because I’ve done it for the last two years.
**** ROBERT BRUCE HODGKIN XXN MR PARRY
PN2216
You also give some evidence about statistics?---Yes.
PN2217
As I understand when you were at some stage you were in charge of regional response units?---Yes, about three or four years ago.
PN2218
They include analysts?---Yes, they had each had two analysts in them.
PN2219
What did the analysts do?---I’ve never been able to work it out.
PN2220
What you hold them in little regard?---No, I don’t hold them in little regard.
PN2221
You are in charge of them, but you hold them in little regard is that the
position?---No, not necessarily - - -
PN2222
Did they do anything at all?---Yes, they used to do all the checks for the investigators, they would do all the telephone checks, they would do all other sort of checks and run, they would run the intelligence data bases and all that sort of thing.
PN2223
They would use much statistical information in their work?---No, I don’t think so, no.
PN2224
You don’t think so?---No.
PN2225
Do you know?---Well I know, I don’t as I said, no I don’t think so, I can’t see why would they use it in the RAUs.
PN2226
You mention incident reports in your statement, what are incident reports?
---Incident reports are incident fact sheets that are put on the computer every, of major incidents, or any incidents is of interest.
I also get reports from visits to licensed premises and things like that which I take note of.
PN2227
You say you keep an eye on statistics provided on crime rates?---Yes.
PN2228
How do you do that?---They post – they’re updated every Monday, so I just go on the computer and have a look.
PN2229
On the intranet?---On the intranet, yes.
**** ROBERT BRUCE HODGKIN XXN MR PARRY
PN2230
You look at hot spots?---Well it would be difficult to pick a hot spot from the stats on the internet. It’s just figures. I would have to ask and go in deeper to find out where the hot spots were.
PN2231
You can do that if you want?---But not on the – you wouldn’t do on the computer, no on the stats that are on the computer. I would get someone to just tell me where they are.
PN2232
You currently use those statistics in tasking?---Sometimes, yes.
PN2233
They are a useful tool in tasking?---Yes and no.
PN2234
Right and?---You see I try and pass from the ground up I get the reports from the Sergeant, the senior Sergeants and they come to us and tell us what the problems are and we act on them that way, that’s the way we try to do them.
PN2235
The statistical analyses are useful in proactive policing aren’t they?---Well they’re one of the things we consider, yes.
PN2236
Yes, thank you, nothing further.
PN2237
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Friend?
PN2238
MR FRIEND: No re-examination.
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you for giving evidence, you are excused.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.46AM]
MR FRIEND: Call Matthew John Thomas.
<MATTHEW JOHN THOMAS, SWORN [11.46AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND
PN2241
MR FRIEND: Your full name Matthew John Thomas?---That’s correct.
PN2242
You a senior constable with the transit safety division, divisional intelligence unit?---That’s correct.
PN2243
You prepared a statement in relation to this matter?---Yes, I have.
PN2244
Is that statement 11 paragraphs long?---10 paragraphs long.
PN2245
Is your Honour’s 10 paragraphs long?
PN2246
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN2247
MR FRIEND: Thank you. Are the contents of that statement true and
correct?---Yes it is.
I tender that if your Honour pleases.
EXHIBIT #FEDERATION 14 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MATTHEW JOHN THOMAS
PN2249
MR FRIEND: Mr Thomas if you could wait there please.
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Parry?
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PARRY [11.48AM]
PN2251
MR PARRY: Senior constable, are you aware of what the bans are on with regard to statistical information?---Yes, I am.
PN2252
Are you going to comply with them?---Yes, I will.
PN2253
Strictly?---Yes.
PN2254
You see what’s your job as an intelligence analyst?---Well my job is first and foremost – initially to provide statistical information to divisional command. It is also to provide investigative support to the operational members both within and outside the division, that being the transit safety division. Thirdly, to oversee sexual related offences on the public transport system throughout the state.
**** MATTHEW JOHN THOMAS XXN MR PARRY
PN2255
I’m not sure whether it was left in the witness box, but there was a document which I will perhaps hand to you which says what the bans are and I will just open it up on the page that I want to take you to. You see that, that’s the list of the first bans that you’ve opened on, yet at ban 4 is to ban the preparation, provision of statistical information to Victoria Police Force, you see that?---Yes.
PN2256
Can you describe your job, your first and presumably your primary duty of providing statistical information to divisional command?---Well it’s not my primary duty. As I said it forms - - -
PN2257
Well it’s the one you mentioned first?---Well as I recall it may have been mentioned second. It is not my primary function, my primary function is to be an intelligence analyst, that is just one of the functions, not my primary function.
PN2258
Well I assume it’s a function you are just not going to perform from here on?---At this point I’m not prepared to perform it no.
PN2259
So that function that you described as providing statistical information at divisional command you are not going to perform any more?---Not at this point no.
PN2260
And you are not performing it now?---No, I’m not.
PN2261
Right and indeed, the statistical analysis you would be carrying out anyway would presumably be of little value, because the statistics aren’t coming in that could be analysed?---The statistics are there they are stored within the Force mainframe by means of other LEAP information that’s collated. It’s just not being processed.
PN2262
Are you aware of a Police Association newsletter exhibit Police 16 which says:
PN2263
Statistics not collected are lost forever.
PN2264
You would agree with that?---No.
PN2265
You wouldn’t agree with that?---No.
PN2266
How are you going to collect statistics if they are not prepared at the time of an event?---It depends on the statistics that you are talking about.
**** MATTHEW JOHN THOMAS XXN MR PARRY
PN2267
Right so if LEAP forms aren’t filled in, in regard to statistical information, they are never going to be filled in with regard to statistical information are they?---No, well LEAP forms are being filled in, it’s just a matter in which way they are interpreted. They’re being filled in as I said they are being stored within the police mainframe. It’s just a matter in terms of how they are disseminated in what format. From an operational perspective you would still be able to perform your function using LEAP information.
PN2268
You see the forms go on and say that the – the clarification of the bans go on and say:
PN2269
Do I complete LEAP forms? Members should complete only the information in the LEAP forms that is non statistical in nature.
PN2270
Are you aware of that being the position of the Police Association?---Specifics with regards to LEAP forms?
PN2271
Yes? Well perhaps I could just be fair to you if the document I handed up, if I could move you on a couple of pages there’s frequently asked questions and it asks in respect of ban 4:
PN2272
Members to ban the preparation and provision of statistical information.
PN2273
Tell me if this is a surprise to you because I don’t - - -?---No, I just misunderstood what you meant, but I think I’ve got an appropriate answer for you.
PN2274
Well it’s not what I meant, it’s what the Police Association have put in their frequently answered questions that I’m taking you to. I want to ask your understanding of it?---Yes.
PN2275
It asks:
PN2276
Do I complete LEAP forms, TIS or CJEP, members should complete only the information in the LEAP forms that is non statistical in nature.
PN2277
Right?---What you might need to understand so as if I could clarify to the Commission is that the force data base, largely referred to as LEAP, also has a connecting data base specifically a relational data base called SAS, now the information that members collect in their day to day duties, is effectively LEAP information the statistical information is drawn from SAS which is a separate data base a relational data base but it interprets that information in statistical form. Now my understanding of the bans is that the LEAP information is being collated, but it is not being analysed for force command through SAS and that is what we are not doing.
**** MATTHEW JOHN THOMAS XXN MR PARRY
PN2278
Well can you – if I could hand you what I understand is the sort of LEAP form and can you tell me what is the statistical part of it and what is the non-statistical part of it.
PN2279
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Police 13, is it?
PN2280
MR PARRY: Yes, I think it is your Honour.
PN2281
Can you?---Well it would depend on what you are asking in terms of the analysis, most of these fields could be interpreted as statistics, most of these fields.
PN2282
Well let’s assume I’m a police officer that’s looked up the Police Association website and seen that with regard to LEAP forms that I’m only to complete the information that is non-statistical in nature, what would I do as a police officer.
PN2283
MR FRIEND: Well that’s a bit speculative your Honour, he is asking a witness what a police officer might do in certain circumstances and I think he better ask what he is getting in a LEAP form.
PN2284
MR PARRY: It is a totally reasonable question to a man that says he is an intelligence analyst. He is confident to mention statistical analyses in his statement he seems to have some clear understanding of what it is. Even the answer he’s just given would indicate that he has got some views on the matter.
PN2285
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well I’ll ask the witness to respond to what he knows from his personal knowledge about that issue and to explain what his personal knowledge is, if that’s all right please?---Thank you, your Honour.
PN2286
Ask the question again if you need to Mr Parry.
PN2287
MR PARRY: What is purely statistical and what is non-statistical in the LEAP forms that I’ve handed to you?---As I said you could probably draw statistics from most of these fields. However they in themselves are inconsequential. The fields have to be put together in order to paint a picture and we would use SAS the numeric returns which we are currently not doing. SAS as I indicated before is a relational data base attached to LEAP. So these fields individually would identify stats and store them within the mainframe, but individually unless they are in the computer in a query within SAS they would be inconsequential.
**** MATTHEW JOHN THOMAS XXN MR PARRY
PN2288
What about on the second page those bits on the modus operandi with all those boxes, is that statistical, or purely statistical?---As I said individually they would be and again they are being held within the mainframe and they are currently being utilised for investigative support purposes in terms of operational requirements where there is a concern to public safety they are still being used for investigative support purposes.
PN2289
In your area I take it, which is traffic, transit safety divisional intelligence
unit?---No, throughout Victoria Police within the divisional intelligence units, they would utilise say for example, that field you
nominated, modus operandi, if they had a particular query from an investigator. Say in my case transit CIU and we would utilise
those fields if that query required us to do so and we would provide them with a response. As I said from an investigative support
nature which would relate to public safety.
PN2290
Well you say your investigative means involve a number of things, that involves the LEAP and I think that your answer is that parts of it are statistical and other parts aren’t, but you also mention running sheets. Are you aware that there’s a ban on the filling in of running sheets?---Yes.
PN2291
So running sheets aren’t being filled in?---They are not at this stage, no.
PN2292
So that’s one of the factors that is taken out of the equation in your
analysis?---Yes, except in the case of investigative support circumstances whereby we may be going back over quite a period of time.
In my statement I made reference to an incident that occurred back in autumn there were running sheets in place for that.
PN2293
I’m sorry this is the incident in autumn about the tramways incident?---That’s correct.
PN2294
So you relied on the running sheets in the analysis that led to the apprehension of that offender?---Not with running sheets, not in that specific example. It’s an example – it’s an avenue that we can pursue but we didn’t actually utilise that avenue for that investigation and we would probably normally use field contacts in 99 per cent of those circumstances as opposed to the running sheets. It was just to give the hearing an example of another avenue that could be pursued but it’s one that is least used now because running sheets aren’t electrified. So we have limited ability to search over them.
**** MATTHEW JOHN THOMAS XXN MR PARRY
PN2295
Presumably you see the use of statistical analysis as good for proactive policing?
---Yes, it would be.
PN2296
And to either not have those statistics available or not use them, would take away a valuable tool in proactive policing?---Proactive policing, not operational policing that’s affecting public safety.
PN2297
Proactive policing you accept what I say, that either not having statistics or not using them, is taking away a valuable tool in proactive policing?---Again it – you would have to be specific about what you were hoping to achieve with those statistics.
PN2298
Well is my question unclear?---Yes, it is.
PN2299
Well I can’t – well you know what proactive policing is?---Proactive is as opposed to reactive policing.
PN2300
Yes, as opposed, that is actually planning ahead, conducting a program or a campaign to stop or prevent crime, that’s proactive policing?---Yes, in some circumstances.
PN2301
You as an intelligence analyst assist in developing programs for proactive policing?---No.
PN2302
You don’t, are you involved in proactive policing at all?---No.
PN2303
So you’re only reactive policing?---Yes.
PN2304
That is you only are concerned with investigating crimes that have taken
place?---My position at this stage, is largely investigative support policing, largely as I indicated earlier and monitoring of sexually
offenders, which is again of a tactical nature as opposed to a strategic nature. I’m not currently not performing any strategic
assessments of anything of that nature.
PN2305
So there would be somebody else in your area that would be performing strategic assessments?---There is one member.
PN2306
So he or she would be presumably using statistical information in that?---I don’t know to what extent his – what’s involved in the preparation of his assessment.
**** MATTHEW JOHN THOMAS XXN MR PARRY
PN2307
So you don’t know that. Do you yourself use statistical analysis at all in your reactive policing role?---No. As I said, the tools I would use are of a qualitative nature whereas – how can I explain it? From an investigative support role you would use quality data that being free text in the form of information reports, LEAP incident reports, things of that nature, that indicate an offender or an offender’s modus operandi, as opposed to quantitative data which is numerically based. From an investigating support perspective, I’ve never known an offender to be identified by a figure a numeric figure. So there’s a requirement with investigative support policing that being tactical policing - - -
PN2308
Well that’s – in this little speech of yours, you’ve never known an offender to be identified by a figure?---A numeric figure, no.
PN2309
Do I take it from that that your proposition is simply that statistical analysis is a waste of time in the apprehension of criminals, is that your position?---It will not nominate an offender in an investigation.
PN2310
Is my question unclear? Is it your position that statistical analysis is a waste of time in the apprehension of criminals?---From an investigative aspect, it’s not a tool that we would normally utilise.
PN2311
Do you understand, I just put this simple proposition to you, is it your position it’s a waste of time or not? You seem to be totally diminishing the value of statistical analysis?---As I said from an investigative support area, it is of no value.
PN2312
No value, thank you nothing further.
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Any re-examination?
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND [12.05PM]
PN2314
MR FRIEND: Mr Thomas when a LEAP form is completed is that done online I think you said?---Most LEAP reports are completed by members and then faxed to a central location.
PN2315
Faxed and how long does it take after completion to get to you?---It can vary in terms of how long it takes, because it is to be faxed to a central data location and from there they have to be inputted by contracted staff. So it can vary.
PN2316
The bans commenced on 26 August, have you had any LEAP forms produced since then that have been completed?---LEAP forms, yes. All LEAP forms have been completed yes.
**** MATTHEW JOHN THOMAS RXN MR FRIEND
PN2317
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry what?---All LEAP forms have been completed.
PN2318
MR FRIEND: I’m asking about the ones you’ve seen that have been completed after 16 August. Is there any information
on those that has not been completed?
---No.
PN2319
Is your ability to use the information on LEAP forms hampered in any way?---No.
PN2320
By the bans?---No.
PN2321
Are you involved with I think you drew the distinction between LEAP and SAS, what’s SAS stand for?---Statistical analysis services.
PN2322
That’s I think you said a different system as a relational data base?---Yes.
PN2323
What’s the purpose of that?---It will customize searches from LEAP data. LEAP data in itself as you can see from these boxes is very singular and individual. SAS gives you the ability to, if I can use an example, for male persons of Caucasian decent have tattoos on their left shoulder. That information is housed within LEAP but in itself, through LEAP you cannot determine that unless you utilise those.
PN2324
Are you using SAS at the moment?---Yes.
PN2325
Nothing further.
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you for giving evidence, you are excused.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.08PM]
MR FRIEND: Call Michael George Norris, if your Honour pleases.
<MICHAEL GEORGE NORRIS, SWORN [12.08PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND
PN2328
MR FRIEND: Your full name Michael George Norris?---That’s correct.
PN2329
You are a detective sergeant for transit crime investigation unit?---That’s correct.
PN2330
You’ve prepared a statement in relation to this matter?---I did.
PN2331
Seven paragraphs long?---Yes.
PN2332
Do you have a copy of it with you?---I do.
PN2333
Is it true and correct?---It is.
I tender that your Honour.
EXHIBIT #FEDERATION 15 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MICHAEL GEORGE NORRIS
PN2335
MR FRIEND: Thank you, your Honour.
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Parry?
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PARRY [12.09PM]
PN2337
MR PARRY: Detective sergeant I’m just a bit amused about we just had a witness giving evidence about incident 15(d) and a Mr Senior Constable Matthew Thomas, do you know him?---I do.
PN2338
He’s given evidence to the Commission about being familiar with a series of events on trams referred to on trams in St Kilda Road referred to in paragraph 15(d)of the statement of Noel Ashby, so he’s told the Commission that he’s familiar with the evidence of the Assistant Commissioner about school girls travelling on trams and he’s given evidence about the sort of analysis he went through. Your statement seems to suggest that this incident was on a train between Eltham and MacLeod? I’m not sure how I – how we deal with one witness saying he quite accepts the incidents in St Kilda and gives evidence about it and then we have you telling us that it’s actually in Eltham and MacLeod that even I know is not on the same tram route?---No my understanding of the incidents that you are referring to have taken place on trams along St Kilda Road, but when I read the affidavit and I saw the incident detailed about a similar stain found on a dress I believe that specific incident relates to something that happened on a train. It happened the same timeframe, it was a similar type of offence but it didn’t happen on the trams along St Kilda Road.
**** MICHAEL GEORGE NORRIS XXN MR PARRY
PN2339
Well you see the Assistant Commissioner gave evidence about it was school girls travelling on trams and we advised that it was the St Kilda Road trams and that appears to be – sit comfortably with Senior Constable Thomas, but you’ve sort of gone off on another incident, in another area, which really we don’t’ know anything about?---I simply think that someone has got their wires crossed and it’s a separate incident altogether, but I understand that 15(d) is referring to a series of incidents on St Kilda Road tram.
PN2340
Right okay. Now Senior Constable Thomas also told us that he was aware of the sort of analysis that went into apprehending those people and you say:
PN2341
The operations which were carried out which were referred to in paragraph 15(d) could still be carried out now accessing the same statistical information on which those operations drew.
PN2342
?---That’s correct.
PN2343
What statistical information are you talking about that was used in those operations?---The material that shows us patterns, materials that shows us times and dates the patterns of offending.
PN2344
Where do you get information on patterns of offending?---Well I get it from the DIU, but it basically comes from LEAP reports and intelligence reports.
PN2345
Patterns, you say patterns emerge in the reports of such offences, who carries out the sort of analysis that detect patterns?---Well specifically the job of the DIU but I mean it becomes evident as an investigator, as things are reported, it becomes quite evident when patterns develop.
PN2346
Right do the analysts carry out statistical analysis to detect patterns?---They carry out analysis I suppose if you want to call it statistical analysis, or analysing material.
PN2347
Well if you are analysing anything it’s got numbers in it, I suppose that would be statistical analysis would it?---You can call it statistical analysis.
PN2348
That’s not unfair is it?---That’s not unfair, no.
PN2349
You’re aware that there is a ban on the preparation and provision of statistical information?---Yes, the bans do not relate to my interpretation of the bans, they do not relate to operational duties. They are not related to us using material from LEAP and that comes out of the intelligence offices there is no ban on us using that material in order to investigate offences.
**** MICHAEL GEORGE NORRIS XXN MR PARRY
PN2350
Where do you get that from?---Well there isn’t. There’s no ban on me using statistical analysis or material to investigate offences.
PN2351
Btu there is a ban on the preparation and provision of it, right?---Are you talking semantics? Anyone can access that material go into the computer.
PN2352
I’m not talking semantics, I’m talking your union’s ban?---The ban is on providing material to the chain of command.
PN2353
It’s also on the preparation of it so you don’t even prepare it, you don’t prepare it and you don’t provide it, are you going to follow that ban?---No, you can analyse it.
PN2354
But what’s to analyse if it’s not being prepared?---Well again I think you are talking semantics, there’s no ban on looking at the material and using it for the purpose of investigating offences.
PN2355
Do you think the ban could be worded a bit better?---Well I understand it perfectly well.
PN2356
Right completion of LEAP forms, the ban says you only complete the information in LEAP forms that is non statistical in nature. Do you know what’s non statistical in LEAP forms? I can hand you a LEAP form and you can perhaps tell me if it is all so clear?---All right.
PN2357
Going through that document what’s statistical and what’s non statistical?---Well obviously the written component where you’ve got to supply an explanation of what happened is non statistical.
PN2358
Right, sorry which part are you looking at here on the first page?---Well basically the whole of the first page.
PN2359
The whole of the first page is non-statistical, right. The second page?---Certainly the first half of the second page, is non statistical.
PN2360
Right what about the second half of the second page?---I’d be filling in the second half of the second page because I’m filling in the paper work, that’s what happens with that paper work.
**** MICHAEL GEORGE NORRIS XXN MR PARRY
PN2361
Is it statistical or non-statistical the second half of the second page?---Well filling it out isn’t being statistical, but I can see how statistics would come from the second half of that page.
PN2362
So it might be a police officer sees that that is the provision of statistical information and not fill in that second half of the second page?
PN2363
MR FRIEND: Again the witness is being asked to speculate as to what some other police officer might do. My learned friend knows these bans have been in place for some time if they are not getting filled in they can be produced.
PN2364
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry Mr Parry, you want to say anything?
PN2365
MR PARRY: Well you seem to have some uncertainty about whether it is statistical or not, is that fair?---No, I can see how if you assess all that information and put it together and forward it on, then you are preparing statistics.
PN2366
All right so that on your understanding is banned?---No, it’s not my understanding to fill in LEAP reports.
PN2367
No, but you see the ban says:
PN2368
Members should complete only information in LEAP forms that is non statistical in nature.
PN2369
Right, so you would be complying with the ban if you did not fill in the second part of the second page?---I could see how that would be yes.
PN2370
Over the page, this is offences against properties or statutes and again it has a modus operandi, again that second half of the third page would again fall into the category of being statistical, wouldn’t it?---When you put it all together it becomes statistical.
PN2371
Right so that again would be banned, the provision of that information?---Well my interpretation and it’s only my interpretation, I’m not breaking any bans by filling in the LEAP form. I’m filling in a piece of paper work which is part of an investigation of criminal offence.
PN2372
Now statistical systems presumably require a fuller filling in of forms and accurate filling in of forms as possible?---Yes.
**** MICHAEL GEORGE NORRIS XXN MR PARRY
PN2373
At the time of the incident?---Yes.
PN2374
And delays or the non filling in of forms, makes statistical information of little value?---Perhaps in the short term and inconvenience.
PN2375
Well your union has publicly said in a newsletter:
PN2376
Statistics not collected are lost forever.
PN2377
You presumably agree with that?---Statistics prepared on LEAP forms aren’t lost forever, it goes into the computer.
PN2378
Are you aware that your union has also said that:
PN2379
We have notified the Commissioner today on 29 August that our members will not be collecting statistics for submission at a later time in accordance with ban 4.
PN2380
Are you aware of that?---Yes.
PN2381
Will you comply with that?---In that I don’t fill in area forms, that’s about the extent of what I’m not doing at the moment in relation to statistics or filling in a diary.
PN2382
I have nothing further if your Honour pleases.
PN2383
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Any re-examination?
MR FRIEND: Yes, your Honour.
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND [12.21PM]
PN2385
MR FRIEND: Can you turn back to the first page Mr Norris of the LEAP
form?---Yes.
PN2386
What do you fill in, in the large box case progress narrative?---Basically it’s designed to cover everything in relation to the offence you are investigating, or the offence that the member is taking the report for. So it covers everything.
PN2387
Would that include the modus operandi?---Yes.
**** MICHAEL GEORGE NORRIS RXN MR FRIEND
PN2388
Can you just turn over the page, and tell me what the information in that larger tick box bit under modus operandi wouldn’t
be included in the first box, if
any?---Well it should all be included. It should all be included in the first box, the first box is meant to be thorough detail of
what happened.
PN2389
What about the second page where it has it, is that any different?---The same thing.
PN2390
So if those boxes – it’s obvious. I’ve nothing further.
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much for giving evidence you are excused.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.22PM]
PN2392
MR FRIEND: Your Honour my learned friend been very efficient and dealt with the witnesses rather more quickly than we thought.
PN2393
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Indeed.
PN2394
MR FRIEND: Mr Mullett he wouldn’t be available until 2.15 any way, your Honour would be aware that behind the scenes the parties have other matters that they are involved in.
PN2395
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think it’s a very good idea for the parties to be engaged in negotiations on this issue for the record.
PN2396
MR FRIEND: Your Honour we would then ask to call Mr Mullett this afternoon.
PN2397
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: At 2.15?
PN2398
MR FRIEND: 2.15 and your Honour we won’t be in a position to proceed in a timely way with Mr Evans and so that would be the conclusion of our case.
PN2399
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right.
PN2400
MR FRIEND: We then wish to – and I will raise this now to get some indication from your Honour.
PN2401
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Should we go off the record to discuss procedure?
PN2402
MR FRIEND: Yes.
PN2403
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We’ll go off the record to discuss procedure, go on.
<LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.23PM]
<RESUMED [2.37PM]
MR FRIEND: Thank you, your Honour, I call Paul Mullett.
<PAUL REDMOND MULLETT, SWORN [2.38PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND
PN2405
MR FRIEND: State your full name, please?---Paul Redmond Mullett.
PN2406
And your address?---Private address?
PN2407
You don't need to state your private address. Your work address is sufficient?
---Police Association, care of 1 Clarendon Street, East Melbourne.
PN2408
You're a Senior Sergeant of the Victorian Police Force?---Yes.
PN2409
You're also the Secretary of the Victorian Branch of the Police Federation?---The Chief Executive.
PN2410
Have you prepared a statement in relation to this matter?---Yes.
PN2411
Does that statement have some 46 pages and a number of attachments?---Yes.
PN2412
Is it true and correct?---Yes.
I tender that if your Honour pleases.
EXHIBIT #FEDERATION 16 WITNESS STATEMENT OF PAUL REDMOND MULLETT
MR FRIEND: Thank you, Mr Mullett.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PARRY [2.39PM]
PN2415
MR PARRY: Senior Sergeant, as I read your statement you were given leave without pay in 1992 to become Secretary of the Police Station
in Tasmania?
---Yes.
PN2416
That's leave without pay from the Victorian Police?---Yes.
PN2417
Are you still on leave without pay?---It's a moot point. It's either leave without pay or secondment.
PN2418
Well, you commenced leave without pay in 1992. You became Secretary of the Police Association in Tasmania. You came back as the
Assistant Secretary of the Police Association in Victoria and I assume you remained on leave without pay?
---Under the then Chief Commissioner, yes.
**** PAUL REDMOND MULLETT XXN MR PARRY
PN2419
So from 1992 up until the present you've been on leave without pay from the Victorian Police Force?---Either leave without pay or on secondment, yes.
PN2420
Whatever it is, you haven't been an operational police officer for some 15 years?
---Yes, that's correct.
PN2421
And when you say it's leave without pay, you are now paid by the Police Association to work for them?---That's correct.
PN2422
Now, you mention in your statement the ballot that took place in August - or, I'm sorry - yes, it was declared on 9 August. I think your press statements would indicate that you saw there was very strong support for the bans that you propose implementing?---Yes.
PN2423
You expect those bans to be broadly implemented across the Police Force in Victoria?---Yes.
PN2424
And you would expect police officers to follow them to the letter?---Yes, subject to them not interfering with the safety of the community.
PN2425
And I think in some of your messages to your members you expect this EB 2006 campaign, as you call it, to be long and bitter?---Yes.
PN2426
And I think also in your statements you say, "It's important we stick together and act as a collective"?---Yes.
PN2427
And you intend the uptake of these bans to be effective, don't you?---Yes, again without interfering with community safety.
PN2428
Now, your statement also refers to what happens in, I think, 2001 when there was also an application to terminate the bargaining period?---Yes.
PN2429
You see, in your statement in paragraph 25, you refer to the transcript of proceedings of 5 September 2001?---Yes.
PN2430
Have you been through that transcript?---No.
PN2431
It's not attached - you say it's attached but it's not attached to your statement, is it?---It should be.
**** PAUL REDMOND MULLETT XXN MR PARRY
PN2432
Let's go to see what you've attached. You see, what you've attached is 1 October 2001. You see, I have a copy of the transcript of 5 September 2001 and I'm happy to provide a copy up to you, a copy of the transcript of 5 September. If I could hand that to the witness. Senior Sergeant, you see, I've read through that transcript fairly carefully and it doesn't support what you say about the Chief Commissioner not pressing the application to terminate under section 170MW(3). Indeed, in that transcript the Chief Commissioner wanted to progress both elements of MW(3) back then. You can't dispute that, can you?---I would have to read the transcript before I could make any comment.
PN2433
So you didn't read the transcript before putting in that sentence:
PN2434
The Chief Commissioner did not press the application to terminate under section 170MW(3) but pressed the application in relation to 170MW(7).
PN2435
Do you want to delete that evidence now?---My evidence is just that the transcript is attached.
PN2436
All right. You want to delete that sentence, don't you?---Not necessarily.
PN2437
You don't know whether it's true or not, do you?---As I've indicated I haven't read that transcript or the one you've just produced.
PN2438
Well, who prepared the statement for you with these statements in it?---They were prepared with the assistance of staff of the Police Association.
PN2439
So you didn't read the transcript before you put in paragraph 25, for example?
---No, because it was just an attachment.
PN2440
I tender that transcript that I just handed up.
PN2441
MR FRIEND: I haven't got a copy. Could my learned friend provide a copy.
PN2442
MR PARRY: Well, I only have one copy that I've handed up. I'm happy to provide a copy of that, or it be copied.
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We can have a copy if that would assist the parties. What are we up to? That's Police 20. We'll deal with the copies in a minute.
**** PAUL REDMOND MULLETT XXN MR PARRY
EXHIBIT #POLICE 20 TRANSCRIPT OF BP2001/3913 5/09/2001
PN2444
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Perhaps we can have copies made. Do you need them now?
PN2445
MR FRIEND: It would be of assistance if I could have it before re-examination, your Honour.
PN2446
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. We'll try and do it now if that's possible.
PN2447
MR PARRY: If your Honour pleases.
PN2448
The transcript of 7 October which - sorry, 1 October which I've just been provided with, you haven't read that either?---No.
PN2449
Now, you refer to the 2007 industrial campaign and you refer to your Assistant Secretary, Bruce McKenzie, speaking to Stephen Bird of the Office of Public Prosecutions. Is Mr McKenzie still employed by your organisation?---Yes.
PN2450
Is he available to give evidence?---Yes.
PN2451
You see, you're just giving evidence here of what he told you. You have not spoken to Stephen Bird of the OPP, have you?---No.
PN2452
I just want to put this to you. You see, I rang Stephen Bird and I want to put to you what he told me. You see - - -
PN2453
MR FRIEND: Sorry, could my learned friend put questions on the basis of what - - -
PN2454
MR PARRY: I'm putting - well - - -
PN2455
MR FRIEND: Okay.
PN2456
MR PARRY: I'm putting what I was told.
PN2457
He's the Acting Director of the OPP, do you know that?---Yes.
PN2458
He was rung by Mr McKenzie, so he says. He says that the OPP had sent out emails to its staff about the commencement of the bans and those emails, so he told Mr McKenzie, had the potential to impact on trials. Did Mr McKenzie tell you that?---No.
**** PAUL REDMOND MULLETT XXN MR PARRY
PN2459
No?---If that's correct.
PN2460
Well, only Mr McKenzie can tell us the content of the conversation between he and Mr Bird, can't he?---Yes.
PN2461
And he, Mr Bird, says that he did not say anything about "the OPP could meet the requirements of the bans"?
PN2462
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Where are you reading from?
PN2463
MR PARRY: I'm sorry, I'm reading from paragraph 31 of the last line.
PN2464
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks very much.
PN2465
MR PARRY: Mr Bird did not say words to that effect and, indeed, those words would have been inconsistent with the emails that he referred Mr McKenzie to. You can't assist the Commission with regard to this?---No.
PN2466
Only Mr McKenzie. And the proposition about the OPP are confident that no trials will be disrupted as a result of the bans. Who put those words in there? Is this some staff in your office?---It was drafted and that is a correct statement.
PN2467
Well, on what do you base it as correct, on your conversations with Mr McKenzie?---Conversations with a number of members.
PN2468
Is Mr McKenzie one of those?---No.
PN2469
He's not. Well, which members have you spoken to about you being confident that no trials will be disrupted, can you name the members?---They were just general conversations and we have a bans advice line and that issue has never been raised with me internally.
PN2470
That issue has never been raised with you internally?---No.
PN2471
Right. So you don't have any way of knowing the confidence or lack of confidence of the OPP, do you?---Only that it's, from my point of view, not interfering with the proceedings of the OPP, speaking with members and members of staff who manage the current bans advice line.
**** PAUL REDMOND MULLETT XXN MR PARRY
PN2472
You yourself don't have any idea about the level of confidence of the OPP, do you?---I can only repeat the answer to the former question.
PN2473
You could have contacted Mr Bird yourself, couldn't you?---No. I have full - - -
PN2474
Well, why not?---I have full confidence in my Assistant Secretary, Mr McKenzie.
PN2475
Who we're not going to hear from in this case, I take it?---I can't comment on that.
PN2476
Now, you go on and say about Chris Kennedy being in contact with Mr Bob Watson from the office in relation to the bans. Again Mr Kennedy, he's available, is he?---Yes.
PN2477
And you base this paragraph on what you've been told by Mr Kennedy?---Yes.
PN2478
And can I suggest to you that this is the process that's been followed, that you issued or gave notice of the bans on about 17 July - I'm sorry, just around about mid July, and there were discussions between you and Mr Kennedy and others and about the clarification of the bans in mid July?---Yes.
PN2479
And the clarification of the bans led to a re-wording of a couple of the bans, bans 1 through to - particularly bans 1 through to 11?---Yes.
PN2480
And when those bans were commenced on 26 August some members of your union misinterpreted a couple of the bans?---Well, one.
PN2481
Well, some of them for example refused to issue intervention orders as they thought it was within the scope of ban 1, didn't they?---I'm not aware of that.
PN2482
Well, are you aware of the issuing of a notice by your union which referred to the - in frequently answered questions, the service or backing up of intervention orders is an operational matter and as a result should continue at this stage, are you aware of that?---Yes.
PN2483
And I suggest that was issued because some members have either not been serving intervention orders or serving orders but not notifying
the Magistrates' Court?
---They may have.
PN2484
Well, that's what - actually I'm reading precisely from exhibit P9 which is a document put out by your union under Frequently Asked Questions where you say under ban 1, which says:
**** PAUL REDMOND MULLETT XXN MR PARRY
PN2485
Members not to provide information or advice other than in an operational context of other government departments or agencies.
PN2486
And I quote:
PN2487
We have been advised that some members in trying to comply with work bans have either not been serving intervention orders or entering into intervention orders or (2) serving orders but failing to back up the order or notify the Magistrates' Court of service in writing, or (3) not providing a written reason to the Magistrates' Court as to why service could not be effected.
PN2488
Now were you aware that goes out in your frequently asked questions?---Yes.
PN2489
And presumably it's accurate, isn't it?---Yes.
PN2490
So presumably some members did so do that in trying to comply with the work bans?---Not to me personally, but I had an instruction, particularly to the bans advice line that if any issues arose, particularly if they were consistent, then a coordinated message needed to be sent out. It's obviously as a result of that because the strict message to the bans advice line to advise members was that all bans, each and every one of them, weren't to compromise community safety.
PN2491
And there was also some confusion with another ban, the ban (4) on the preparation of - or LEAP reports. Some members weren't - or
there was advice to members not to complete LEAP forms at all or accident reports or record reports in people in custody on CJEP
forms. Were you aware of that sort of confusion?
---That needed certainly to be clarified, but again, and I became personally aware of that and my strict instruction again to the
staff who were managing the bans advice line was to, and even again circulated to the membership, the over arching principle that
community safety wasn't to be compromised and all forms had to be completed with operational information. So safety wasn't compromised.
If there was provision for any form of statistical data on any form, well, obviously that was not to be completed, but forms were
to be completed to comply with operational requirements, so in turn, community safety wasn't compromised.
PN2492
Are you familiar with LEAP forms yourself?---Generally.
**** PAUL REDMOND MULLETT XXN MR PARRY
PN2493
Do you know what's non statistical in them?---I would have to re-visit forms in that context.
PN2494
All right well I’ll hand you up a LEAP form and I just wonder if you could tell me what you consider to be non-statistical and statistical in it Senior Sergeant? Now on the first page what’s in that that’s statistical and non-statistical?---I can’t see anything statistical on that first page.
PN2495
Right on the second page?---It’s subjective but the bottom half of that page could be statistical.
PN2496
When you say it’s subjective, what do you mean by that?---Well it’s in the mind of the particular member completing that form. But nonetheless the top half of the form details operationally the offence, where it was committed, the victim and therefore, can be progressed without any compromise to community safety.
PN2497
I’m just interested in this second part of that second page though, as you say it’s subjective in the mind of the member, so it’s in the mind of the member whether that is statistical or not?---In my view it’s statistical.
PN2498
So you would not complete that information?---No, but I’d ensure the top half of the form, so community safety wasn’t compromised.
PN2499
Over the page, similarly dealing with lost property or statute?---Yes.
PN2500
In your mind you wouldn’t fill in the bottom part of the page?---No, but I’d certainly complete the top half to again ensure that safety wasn’t compromised.
PN2501
All right now there was initially some concern about the operation of summer bans 1 through to 11, wasn’t there in mid August to late August?---Well from where I said only from a consistency perspective how they were being consistently applied and that’s why we established the bans advice line. Firstly, the major issue is to ensure that all bans were consistently applied across the state and followed by the second strict instruction from the bans advice line to any member that community safety should not be compromised.
PN2502
Again returning to paragraph 34 the discussions as you understand it the discussions between your Mr Kennedy and Mr Watson about bans having an adverse impact dealt with those bans that had been imposed and were bans 1 through to 11, that’s the position isn’t it?---Can you repeat the question please?
**** PAUL REDMOND MULLETT XXN MR PARRY
PN2503
Yes, the discussions as best you understand it between Mr Kennedy and
Mr Watson about bans having an adverse impact were discussions about the bans that were, had been implemented being bans 1 through
to 11?---Yes.
PN2504
The consistent position for the last week since it’s become clear that bans 12 to 22 will be implemented from Victoria Police, is that they consider that there will be a threat with a risk to public welfare?---Not in my view.
PN2505
Pardon?---Not in my view.
PN2506
Not in your view, I’m saying the consistent position of Victoria Police, not your view, hasn’t it?---Well that’s why we are all here in these proceedings.
PN2507
Thank you. Now you have read the statement you say of Assistant Commissioner Noel Ashby you’ve never worked in traffic?---No.
PN2508
You’ve never worked in the traffic camera office?---No.
PN2509
No, and I think you’ve read the statement of Kieran Walshe and I assume your criticism of him comes from your experiences as an operational policeman some 18 years ago?---Yes and speaking to members on a daily basis and being in close contact with those members having a full appreciation of what operational policing should be.
PN2510
Now you go on and deal with ban 10, this is the one about members making themselves available for recall for duty and requiring that there be a minimum of two members recalled at any, on any one occasion, right?---Yes.
PN2511
Are you aware of how that operates in the country in rural divisions?---Yes.
PN2512
It’s often the case there, that one member is rostered available for duty isn’t
it?---Yes.
PN2513
That’s a fairly common method of operation in rural divisions?---Yes, not that it’s right, but yes.
PN2514
When you say not that it’s right, you see Assistant Commissioner Ken Lay has given evidence about the operation of availability and putting people on availability and he says that the more officers required – and I’m quoting:
**** PAUL REDMOND MULLETT XXN MR PARRY
PN2515
Will be required to be available when the bans are implemented and will be called out reducing the rest periods for police and increasing fatigue which may increase sick leave and OH&S issues, diminishing the service to the community.
PN2516
Do you agree with that, or disagree?---That’s a very good point, because the Victoria Police force longstanding now, have been doing that on a daily basis, 12 months of the year, compromising our own members safety through fatigue and placing them in vulnerable positions of working alone.
PN2517
So increasing members on availability isn’t necessarily a good idea is it?---Yes, it protects their personal safety, it’s an issue of resourcing and the Victoria police force have been absolutely negligent in not having proper resourcing levels in all police stations, but in this context, proper resources in rural communities, therefore compromising not only our members safety but community safety and they’ve been compromising community safety for years now, particularly since 2001.
PN2518
Well thankyou for that, let’s get back to the question and its about your proposition of putting the bans in which will increase the number of members on availability and I think we both agree that availability, being on availability is a bad thing right?---A bad thing?
PN2519
Well because for the reasons that Assistant Commissioner Lay says, when you’re on it, it reduces rest periods, it increases fatigue?---I can only repeat and we’ve brought this issue up time and time again, particularly with force command, in how they’ve been negligent in allowing our members particularly in rural communities, but across all the state, not having properly resourced police stations. We know government provided resources, but 800 police officers are missing off the frontline at the moment. That’s the Victoria Police force - - -
PN2520
Thank you for that?---But it’s compromised our members safety and community safety.
PN2521
Yes, thank you, thank you, well you see your bans compelling more members to be on availability in rural areas, is going to simply increase the rest, the lack of rest periods and fatigue for those officers placed on availability, won’t it?---No, not necessarily.
**** PAUL REDMOND MULLETT XXN MR PARRY
PN2522
You see, have you seen the statement of a sergeant Paul Evans from Myrtleford police station?---No.
PN2523
He says he gives evidence about availability and he says in respect of being put on it:
PN2524
In an area like Myrtleford this often means that members have heavily disrupted nights and get inadequate rest.
PN2525
Again that’s consistent with what Commissioner Assistant Lay says and you don’t disagree with that?---And that’s only because the Victoria Police force have been negligent in not locating 800 missing police officers who should be out there on the frontline supporting each other and providing better levels of community safety.
PN2526
Right you say in respect of ban 21 that it will create a financial consideration for the force, do you accept that requiring more members to be on availability will have an impact on those members?---That would be subject their requirements. But I can only repeat if we located the missing 800 police officers to be where they should be, it’s the Victoria police force who are actually continually being compromising community safety by not having those 800 out where they should be, serving the community.
PN2527
If your Honour would excuse me briefly. I’m requested to ask for a five minute adjournment your Honour for some discussions to take place.
PN2528
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I have no problems with that all right five minutes.
<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [3.08PM]
<RESUMED [4.55PM]
PN2529
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Who would like to start?
PN2530
MR PARRY: If your Honour pleases. Thank you for the indulgence of the adjournment which went longer than the five minutes I foreshadowed but we'll partly blame the Commission for that and it's only a very small part, your Honour. In fact not at all, I withdraw that. Your Honour, the parties have reached an agreement in the context of the section 430 application. That has been reduced to a document. If I could hand up a copy of that to your Honour.
PN2531
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. I'll mark it a joint exhibit perhaps.
MR PARRY: We would seek it be marked as an exhibit.
EXHIBIT #JOINT EXHIBIT 1 AGREEMENT IN RELATION TO SECTION 430 APPLICATION
PN2533
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: A new start to the proceedings?
PN2534
MR PARRY: Well, I wouldn't absolutely guarantee that.
PN2535
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see.
PN2536
MR PARRY: It's certainly a process - perhaps to run through it quickly, your Honour. It requires firstly that we withdraw the section 430 application and not make an application for next Wednesday. We are to make a joint application to extend the 30 day period from 8 September which is tomorrow to 23 September and immediately following the conclusion of these proceedings, your Honour, we will seek to call on the ballot application proceedings to make that application.
PN2537
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right.
PN2538
MR PARRY: The union are to withdraw the notices in respect of bans 12 to 22 and not give notice renewing those bans until next Wednesday.
PN2539
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN2540
MR PARRY: The union agrees to immediately suspend bans 4 and 10 until
12 September 2007. Your Honour will recall in the section 430 proceedings there was evidence about ban 4 which concerned statistical
information and ban 10 which concerned recall to duty. The next provision is that the association is to advise members that there
is a withdrawal of authorisation to engage in industrial action other than in respect of those bans 4 and 10 being bans 1, 2, 3,
5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 11, and further, that there's not going to be any further industrial action engaged in by the union except other
than as referred to in paragraph 5.
PN2541
There is also finally, your Honour, provision that if this matter, or there is any necessity to make a new application to terminate the bargaining period, the evidence that your Honour's heard and the arguments advanced in the transcript in these proceedings will be relied on and used in any further proceedings.
PN2542
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So there may not need to be any further evidence?
PN2543
MR PARRY: No, that's so, your Honour. So on the basis of that being the position of both the applicant and the respondent in these proceedings, we, being the applicant, withdraw the section 430 application and I make that application and so withdraw it.
PN2544
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right. And following that I'll call on the other matter.
<ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [4.59PM]
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs
EXHIBIT #FEDERATION 10 AFFIDAVIT OF NOEL ASHBY RE SECRET BALLOT PROCEEDINGS PN1910
RON RITCHIE, SWORN PN1911
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND PN1911
EXHIBIT #FEDERATION 11 STATEMENT OF RON RITCHIE PN1917
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PARRY PN1918
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND PN1983
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN1997
IAN LEONARD CLARK BAKER, SWORN PN1997
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND PN1997
EXHIBIT #FEDERATION 12 STATEMETN OF IAN LEONARD CLARK BAKER PN2004
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PARRY PN2016
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND PN2162
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN2184
ROBERT BRUCE HODGKIN, SWORN PN2189
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND PN2189
EXHIBIT #FEDERATION 13 WITNESS STATEMENT OF ROBERT HODGKIN PN2195
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PARRY PN2199
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN2239
MATTHEW JOHN THOMAS, SWORN PN2240
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND PN2240
EXHIBIT #FEDERATION 14 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MATTHEW JOHN THOMAS PN2248
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PARRY PN2250
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND PN2313
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN2326
MICHAEL GEORGE NORRIS, SWORN PN2327
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND PN2327
EXHIBIT #FEDERATION 15 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MICHAEL GEORGE NORRIS PN2334
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PARRY PN2336
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND PN2384
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN2391
PAUL REDMOND MULLETT, SWORN PN2404
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND PN2404
EXHIBIT #FEDERATION 16 WITNESS STATEMENT OF PAUL REDMOND MULLETT PN2413
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PARRY PN2414
EXHIBIT #POLICE 20 TRANSCRIPT OF BP2001/3913 5/09/2001 PN2443
EXHIBIT #JOINT EXHIBIT 1 AGREEMENT IN RELATION TO SECTION 430 APPLICATION PN2532
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