C2007/3538, Transcript of Proceedings [2007] AIRCTrans 518 (8 October 2007)

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

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Workplace Relations Act 1996 17510-1

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT KAUFMAN

C2007/3538

s.170LW - prereform Act - Appl’n for settlement of dispute (certified agreement)
Australian Municipal, Administrative, Clerical and Services Union
and
Qantas Airways Limited
(C2007/3538)

MELBOURNE

10.21AM, MONDAY, 24 SEPTEMBER 2007

PN1

MS S DESILVA: I appear on behalf of the ASU.

PN2

MR P SMITH: I appear for Qantas Airways Limited and with me from the business in Melbourne is MS L ROSSITER and MS N CHIRICO.

PN3

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you. Thank you,
Ms DeSilva, what’s it all about?

PN4

MS DESILVA: Commissioner, this is a 170LW application in relation to the Qantas Airways Limited EBA7 which I have a copy of if you’d like?

PN5

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, I have a copy thank you.

PN6

MS DESILVA: You’ve got a copy of that? As well as the award that is read in conjunction with the agreement.

PN7

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don’t have a copy of that.

PN8

MS DESILVA: Yes.

PN9

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do I need it?

PN10

MS DESILVA: Yes.

PN11

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN12

MS DESILVA: So the dispute concerns a number of matters that arise under the agreement and a number of clauses in enterprise agreement 7 and the clause 15 in the award that is read in conjunction with the agreement pursuant to clause 5 of the agreement.

PN13

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Could you speak up a little please?

PN14

MS DESILVA: Yes, no worries.

PN15

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Those microphones don’t amplify. They are there just for the recording of the transcript. They’re not amplification microphones.

PN16

MS DESILVA: No worries.

PN17

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.

PN18

MS DESILVA: I am known as a soft talker.

PN19

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I'll bet you’re not when you’re in front of the troops.

PN20

MS DESILVA: So the parties have met and have exchanged correspondence in an attempt to resolve the dispute about the EBA7, but they haven’t been able to do so and the ASU submission raised four key issues. Firstly customer service agents who have recently been employed at level 2 in Melbourne Domestic and International Airports and at Sydney Domestic Airport and we are led to believe will be employed in South Australian Domestic Airport from October 2007 are performing work that level 3 customer service agents would customarily perform. Accordingly these employees are being incorrectly classified under EBA7 and the positions are incorrectly classified in accordance with the descriptions contained in the award and as a result of this the agreement is being incorrectly applied, in our view.

PN21

Secondly Qantas and the ASU had previously agreed when the relevant clauses were settled and incorporated into EBA7 and the award that customer service agents or Q hosts or Q combing hosts or any like customer service agent position would not be paid in accordance with level 2 rates contained in the current agreement and that the substantive entry level position would be level 3 and such entry level positions wouldn’t be classified as level 2 apart from two exceptions and those two exceptions are the first is that level 2 customer service agents who are being trained on the job and who are going to progress to level 3 are initially classified as level 2 subject to meeting the training requirements and then they move into the substantive position of level 3.

PN22

The second exception is that of special assist roles at Sydney International Terminal, which is referred to as SIT, who are to be employed at level 2 only. So the ASU submits that this agreement is expressly contained in the agreement itself and the award that’s read with it. Thirdly a third issue is that Qantas have not complied with the introduction of change clause in the EBA by failing to provide the ASU and the employees affected all relevant information about the changes before the change was implemented. And finally that Qantas failed to correctly apply clause 30 of EBA7 which is the anomalies and work value clause at clause 30 of EBA7 and Qantas aren’t complying with this clause.

PN23

This clause relates to positions that have been previously classified under a previous classification process. The positions existed at the time when this classification process occurred and the matter about the appropriate entry level for customer service agents has been previously resolved. And if we are not able to resolve the matters through the conciliation process we’d like to schedule in some proceedings around arbitrating the matter.

PN24

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. I will call of Mr Smith. What’s your position about going into conciliation today? Obviously
..... by the sound of what you’ve said.

PN25

MS DESILVA: Yes, I prefer to do that.

PN26

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you Ms DeSilva. Yes,
Mr Smith.

PN27

MR SMITH: Thank you, your Honour. Certainly the business has no objection to proceeding into a private conference to explore what can be done in a conciliation process with the assistance of the Commission. Your Honour, I’ve got a number of points I could make, some of which goes to factual detail. I note the ASU’s opening today has been quite short.

PN28

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, it’s a matter for the parties what you want to place on the record. I don’t dictate that. I give you the opportunity prior to going into conference.

PN29

MR SMITH: Look, perhaps I might just make a few brief points and not necessarily go to everything that I’d otherwise propose to do and then see how we progress through conciliation. Your Honour, it appears to the business that at its core of this matter there seems to be a dispute about the interpretation and enforcement of classification descriptions that are not part of the applicable enterprise agreement. The descriptors previously resided in the underlying award which your Honour has been handed a copy of, the Australian Officers Qantas Airways Limited Award 2000. As I understand it and like many grappling with some of the technicalities in Work Choices, your Honour, but as I understand it those classifications have ceased to sit in awards and they in fact sit in another instrument or mechanism, being the Australia Pay and Classification Scale.

PN30

I raise this in the broad today just to support a general reservation by the business about whether or not this application is competent to ground a dispute over the application of the agreement. We say that the agreement is to be read in conjunction with the award. The award has ceased to even include classifications that are the subject of a dispute as the ASU advances its case and we don’t look to fully explore that here today, but we just mention it the first opportunity, lest it be said at some later time that we sat on our hands. Your Honour, we’re happy to proceed, having reserved or position in relation to jurisdiction, we’re happy to move into some of the factual matters.

PN31

Just briefly by way of chronology, your Honour, the business has a quick check facility it offers customers. Essentially it’s a suite of initiatives that allow passengers to access self checking to flights. Your Honour may be aware of quick check key offs mechanisms available to check in on line through the internet and some other such products that the business offers.

PN32

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I’m too old fashioned to hear that sort of stuff here.

PN33

MR SMITH: Your Honour, in keeping with that observation we have received some feedback from customers which has indicated to us that they would appreciate some meet and greet on arrival, a contact point when entering a queue and accessing self checking facilities of the airport and the company has looked to respond to that customer feedback. In doing so the business identified a need to create a new dedicated position of quick check host, sought that the operational need would be that it be a part-time position, the hosting duties that were identified as being required, had an emphasis on meeting and greeting Qantas guests and also in assisting Qantas customers in the use of self check key offs.

PN34

Your Honour, where a passenger may have required additional assistance the Q quick check host would direct those passengers to a quick check help desk.

PN35

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is that at the airport?

PN36

MR SMITH: It is at the airport as well. The quick check host would also have a general familiarity with the layout and services of the airport so to assist passengers with general inquiries. I’d suggest that they’re the features, or the main features, of this dedicated new position and that there is not a history as best as I have been able to identify in taking my instructions from the business and elsewhere that there’s never been a similar dedicated position in the Qantas network and the airports area contrary to what I’ve heard the ASU suggest today. Your Honour, there’s been an exchange of correspondence between the parties. I do have copies of that correspondence.

PN37

It may assist, your Honour, if you took it for information purposes at this stage. It’s correspondence I think that’s well known to the parties, but I have three letters I’d like to take your Honour to.

PN38

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN39

MR SMITH: There’s a letter dated 20 July 2007 from the group general manager of industrial relations to the assistant national secretary of the ASU, a response dated 24 July 2007 from the ASU to the group general manager industrial relations at Qantas and then a further correspondence from Qantas to the ASU dated 10 August 2007. I'll just hand those up for information.

PN40

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you.

PN41

MR SMITH: Thank you, your Honour. Your Honour, I don’t propose to go into any great detail about this correspondence other than to indicate that the company approached the ASU in relation to this Q hosting initiative sought to consult with the ASU and sought some cooperation around various aspects of the initiative and the business are reasons behind the proposed initiative. There were discussions exchanged and correspondence where, as the ASU has indicated, we have been unable to reach agreement. As things stand, your Honour, the business has proceeded to engage part-time level 2 employees in these roles who have commenced in the business from 5 September working part-time roles.

PN42

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What sort of hours are they working?

PN43

MR SMITH: About 20 hours a week, your Honour, working four or five hour shifts. They’re shift workers working across airport operating hours seven days a week.

PN44

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do they work during the peak times rather than all day?

PN45

MR SMITH: Look, as I understand it predominantly the peaks and in particular on Friday and Saturday in Melbourne. So the national peaks as your Honour is alluding to with the benefit of the record, the morning activity peak and then also a latter afternoon peak is the common peaks that we experience.

PN46

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: How many of these people have been engaged?

PN47

MR SMITH: To date in Melbourne I understand we’ve engaged approximately nine and progressively looking to increase that to a total of approximately 22.

PN48

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Is Melbourne the only location you have them at the moment?

PN49

MR SMITH: No, your Honour. We’ve also commenced in Sydney engaging part-time employees there, Q hosts. The business proposes to employ up to about 21 part-time level 2 Q hosts in Sydney. Your Honour, I just don’t have at my finger tips a breakdown of how far we are down the path on that. I do know we have commenced.

PN50

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN51

MR SMITH: Your Honour, we have a job advertisement which we would say summarises the role, duty and activities of these employees and it might be useful to have that as a reference point as well. I'll look to hand that up. Your Honour will see that this document I’ve handed up is the detailed job advertisement description that was issued in Melbourne. The first two dot points I would indicate show the emphasis of the role. Meeting and greeting Qantas guests and assisting customers in the use of self check key offs. Your Honour, as we would have it these employees are neither trained or have the necessary computer authority access to engage in any checking functions which will no doubt come to you later either on transcript or in private conference which would be germane to the role of the level 3, but I'll come to that in more detail.

PN52

Your Honour, the part-time employees as I understand it commonly work four or five hour shifts.

PN53

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN54

MR SMITH: I might just add that observation.

PN55

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think you made that observation a few minutes ago, Mr Smith.

PN56

MR SMITH: Did we?

PN57

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I have a note of that, so I assume you did.

PN58

MR SMITH: Okay, sorry. Your Honour, if I can make a few brief comments about, notwithstanding my opening comments, if I can call it perhaps a little bit loosely the award classifications.

PN59

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN60

MR SMITH: At paragraph 15 the award commences introducing what is a 13 level structure which, as I understand it, was a product that whilst at some negotiated agreement but also of arbitrated award simplification proceedings in 2000 and also a subsequent variation in 2003 by the Commission. Your Honour will see in the introductions in paragraph 15.3 that each position has some generic descriptors which is broken up into elements of knowledge, problem solving and accountability. Each position or each classification also has some examples by way of typical duties that are representative of core functions and activities performed at a particular level in the business area concerned.

PN61

The clause does not contain an exhaustive list of duties. Your Honour, I go over to a further page and I’m now reading looking at some text above the level 1 descriptors and I commence a quote:

PN62

The descriptors for knowledge, problem solving and accountability are graduated scales. Positions should be rated on these scales at the level of best fit working up the scale. The typical duties are cumulative so skills required at a lower level may be required at a higher level even though they are not specifically mentioned.

PN63

And I end the quote there. There’s some level 1 descriptors which I think the parties have common ground as a training role. There is then some level 2 descriptors which had been acknowledged by, as I understood it, the ASU in previous proceedings before the Commission to be an entry level position, but that seemed to be at odds at what I heard this morning. I’ve got a Commission decision here, but I don’t want to go to too much detail given that we will shortly be going into conference. As we understood it the entry level position was level 2. We thought that that was a determined outcome that the Commission, award simplification and any case.

PN64

Your Honour will see in the level 2 descriptors under the heading of Knowledge the second dot point. I commence a quote:

PN65

As knowledge of a described routine task which can be learned from observation of others brief instruction or training and may require familiarity with equipment, machines and computer applications and general knowledge of company functions, services and locations.

PN66

Your Honour, if I can briefly just note at about point 6 of that same page under Typical Duties Within Airports at Level 2 Include, on the second dot point:

PN67

Meet and greet customers.

PN68

If your Honour turns over the page we move into the level 3 area. We have that graduated increase in knowledge, problem solving and accountability that was referred to in the opening introduction to the classifications and then we also have a list of typical duties within airports of level 3. Those include, and I point out the second dot point:

PN69

Checking, including groups, collect ticket coupons, tag baggage to destination, issue boarding passes, check passports and visas included in editing system details, access excess baggage, ensure baggage security procedures have been completed.

PN70

The indicative list goes on:

PN71

Create baggage irregularity reports, perform simple editing pre flight.

PN72

Your Honour, there’s others in the room that will note very clearly what that’s about. I think it’s about where individuals get allocated within seating, where that might be changed following customer requests and the like or in order for load control in the aircraft trim about where the weight of passengers is placed on an aircraft, those type of matters. Those brief list of typical duties there at level 3 clearly, in our submission, go far further than anything which is set out in the detailed quick check host description which I’ve taken you to, your Honour. I mean look, in summary we put it this way.

PN73

The level 2 quick check host is engaged to meet and greet Qantas customers, assist self checking. Where there’s complications or difficulties with that process they direct to a help desk. That is my understanding of key features of their role in addition to also having the general familiarity and understanding of the layout of the airport so that they can assist with directing customers to where they might need to go.

PN74

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What’s involved in utilising agent specific transactions on the kiosk via the touch screen? That’s about the sixth dot point.

PN75

MR SMITH: Just one moment please, your Honour.

PN76

MS DESILVA: Your Honour, could we just ask Mr Smith to clarify which particular issue you were inquiring about at that point in time?

PN77

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I was inquiring about the sixth dot point.

PN78

MR SMITH: Your Honour, there’s others in the room which have a much better understanding of the software.

PN79

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Perhaps that’s a level of detail I don’t need to have at the moment.

PN80

MR SMITH: Thank you, your Honour. We might perhaps try and deal with that in private conference perhaps?

PN81

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN82

MR SMITH: So look, your Honour, for those brief opening reasons we would say that the role is not level 3 and indeed comfortably sits within level 2. Now, I think that was just some opening comments about the first issue which the ASU took us to so we would say quite simply that we are applying the agreement correctly and that the work being offered to these individuals is properly characterised as level 2 work under the applicable industrial instrument.

PN83

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. And the current rates of pay for the levels in the award are found at schedule 1 of the agreement, is that correct?

PN84

MR SMITH: Yes they are, your Honour. And there’s no dispute about what rate of pay applies to which classification. I think the dispute is more about how do you read and apply the classification descriptors, as we’d understand it.

PN85

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN86

MR SMITH: And hence our reserved position we took in relation to jurisdiction at the outset. Your Honour, the ASU has indicated a previous agreement with the business as their second issue, whether entry level work was somehow or other level 3 and that Q hosting was identified as level 3 work. The ASU made a reference to that being expressly referred to in the agreement, I think, was the submission that I heard. I don’t know where that is. I’ve looked for it, I can’t find it.

PN87

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No doubt Ms DeSilva will show me in conference.

PN88

MR SMITH: Yes. But as best as my inquiries have been able to establish, that there was no such agreement or industrial understanding between the parties and it’s certainly not reflected in the applicable industrial instruments. Your Honour, in relation to the introduction of change being the third point the ASU raised, your Honour, we don’t recognise this particular initiative as being one that would attract the operation of that introduction of change consultative clause, but in any case we say that we have been involved in exchanging information and meeting with the ASU about this matter, we’ve written to them about it, we’ve been prepared to continue discussions with them and try and address and alleviate any concerns they may have.

PN89

That process has been ongoing. So whilst we say we’re not obliged in these circumstances to comply with that clause or that it’s not activated at least, we say we’ve followed a strongly consultative process in the circumstances of any case. Your Honour, in relation to point 4 the ASU took us to clause 30 of the enterprise agreement which was an anomalies clause. We haven’t heard them develop that argument in any detail. I did hear a reference to an assertion that Q hosting positions existed in the past. My investigations, as I indicated earlier, we’ve got no knowledge of that. Whilst there’ve been from time to time individuals engaged in performing Q hosting duties, their substantive role and mixture of duties included checking work and other work which would properly characterise them as level 3s, but they weren’t engaged in dedicated Q hosting work.

PN90

Indeed I think the quick check kiosk has been in place in Melbourne. I just don’t have the month in front of me, but it would be in the region of a year or so, two years perhaps. So I’m not too sure what positions the ASU is alluded to there, but we’d be interested to hear more which they say previously existed. Your Honour, we’d simply say that reading the description and the job advertisement and read against the clear and unambiguous words in the position descriptors, just the usual approach of taking the ordinary and natural meaning of that language, that this work is squarely level 2 work and the company has complied with its industrial instrument obligations. But we’d be proceed to proceed into private conference unless there’s any questions from your Honour.

PN91

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Thank you, Mr Smith.
Ms DeSilva, are you happy to go into conference now or do you want to place something else on the record?

PN92

MS DESILVA: Your Honour, sorry yes. I’m happy to go into evidence if that’s necessary to elaborate on our arguments.

PN93

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We’ve not had any evidence yet.

PN94

MS DESILVA: Elaborate on our arguments prior to going into conciliation, or I’m happy to do that after. But I’d like to reserve the right to do that.

PN95

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, perhaps you can put on the record what you wish to put on the record so that we stock that on the transcript and then I don’t have to rely on my notes.

PN96

MS DESILVA: No worries. First of all I might just respond to a couple of issues that were raised by Qantas in relation to one of the early points that Mr Smith made where he said that it’s not a new dedicated position. Our position is very strongly that we have evidence which indicates that this position existed in the past and was considered in a 2002 classification process which was a result of the negotiations around EBA6 and then led to the award being varied to insert the descriptors into the award after the completion of EBA6. Secondly I actually understand that there are 10 part-time staff who are working in Melbourne Domestic Airport, not nine.

PN97

And just to clarify around the point raised in relation to the level 2 descriptors in the award, the critical words I think which Mr Smith omitted to mention was that that applied to Sydney International Terminal which is consistent with our argument that - - -

PN98

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, where are you there?

PN99

MS DESILVA: Yes, in clause 15 of the award under level 2 descriptors under the Airports header. It says:

PN100

Meet and greet customers and assist with wheelchairs, unaccompanied minors and customers with special needs on a dedicated roster at SIT.

PN101

Sorry, your Honour, it’s under the heading Typical Duties Within Airports.

PN102

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I see that. And you say that means what?

PN103

MS DESILVA: That specific position of level 2 customer service agents was identified when all the positions of customer service agents and other positions were classified and essentially it’s an express term of the agreement that only level 2 customer service agents would work at Sydney International Terminal and the parties gave effect to that understanding by inserting the words SIT to limit its operation to that one location.

PN104

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What’s the one about support areas at level 2? What are support areas?

PN105

MS DESILVA: That’s another part of the airline. I believe that’s admin support and finance and a separate part not applicable to the customer service agents within airports.

PN106

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN107

MS DESILVA: In relation to the point about the introduction of change, we acknowledge that correspondence has passed between the parties which I think I made in my opening remarks and that the parties have had meetings to try and resolve the issue, but there were many occasions where the ASU sought some details about the specific roles that Qantas proposed the level 2 staff will undertake and despite those requests I think Ingrid Stitt, the branch secretary, to staff at Qantas Melbourne Airport. The ASU wasn’t given the detail of the change and we say because of that Qantas haven’t complied with the introduction of change clause where they are required to provide the ASU with all relevant information about the change.

PN108

The change does affect the job opportunities and it is a diminishing of responsibilities for customer service agents so it falls well within the introduction of change clause in clause 9 of the agreement.

PN109

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN110

MS DESILVA: In relation to - I might just now go to some of our reasons for our interpretation of the agreement. I’m certainly prepared to address the jurisdictional issues now, but I don’t think it’s appropriate for me to do that.

PN111

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No.

PN112

MS DESILVA: So I won’t. In relation to the anomalies and work value, clause 30 which was inserted into EBA7 was initially inserted into EBA6. That particular clause gave effect to the understanding between the parties that all positions which existed prior to, I think the date is 1 September 2002, around that time, would be classified and form part of the new classification structure. I have a copy of EBA6 and the bundle of documents that were attached to that if that’s of use, your Honour.

PN113

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Not at this stage I don’t think.

PN114

MS DESILVA: Okay. The clauses raises part of negotiating EBA6. The parties review the classification for positions covered by that agreement. The outcome of this review is that a number of positions have been reclassified or redesigned. The parties agree the outcomes of this review have addressed all anomalies and work value changes as at 1 September 2002 and as a consequence the parties agree that all positions covered by this agreement are correctly classified. Therefore we say that that particular clause was part of EBA6. It was adopted and applied in EBA7 in order to give effect to that clear understanding between the parties that positions which previously existed were classified.

PN115

They’d gone through an extensive classification process which both parties operatively embarked on and it was a very long process.

PN116

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So the question is whether these positions previously existed or not.

PN117

MS DESILVA: This is true.

PN118

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: If they did there may be something in what you say, if they didn’t it’s irrelevant. Is that right?

PN119

MS DESILVA: That's right, your Honour. I’m happy to, which I haven’t discussed with Qantas as yet, but when EBA6 was certified there was a Qantas document which was a skill matrix and it was attached to that EBA6 file in a sealed envelope as a commercial in confidence document. That particular document goes to the issue of the customer service agents level 3.

PN120

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But does it go to the question of whether or not Q hosts existed at that time?

PN121

MS DESILVA: It does.

PN122

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, we’ll look at that at the appropriate time.

PN123

MS DESILVA: Okay. Thank you. In relation to the level 2 exception of the training positions you will see in the way the wording of the award, clause 15 under the level 1 and level 2 knowledge descriptors, that the awards specifically use the language to indicate that they are training positions. So under level 1 of the knowledge descriptors it talks about communication and interpersonal skills appropriate to successfully complete the corporate and local induction training program, literacy and numeracy skills and a commitment to learning to complete training to perform level 3 functions.

PN124

And then if you look at level 2 it says:

PN125

Acquires knowledge required to progress to performance of level 3 functions.

PN126

And we say that’s an express term of the award that gives effect to our understanding of the meaning of that term.

PN127

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, but aren’t you ignoring a very important but short word that appears immediately thereafter?

PN128

MS DESILVA: “Or” and I can go to that point.

PN129

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think you should.

PN130

MS DESILVA: That was put in there specifically to deal with the issue of the level 2s at the Sydney International Terminal. What happened at the time is that in the process of the parties negotiating the agreement, EBA6 that is, and the classifications and then subsequently the award variation, a number of level 2 positions were identified at Sydney International Terminal and they were explicit expressed exception to the general position that level 3 is the entry level position. And so that clause would not make sense if you didn’t have a proviso for that exception.

PN131

And similarly 1 and 2 have to be a part of the award because, as Mr Smith pointed out, each position builds on the knowledge and learnings of a lower position so you need to have it a part of the agreement in order to understand what the lower levels are instead of reproducing them every level.

PN132

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are these Qantas Q hosts and the SIT people the only level 2 employees, are they, at the airports?

PN133

MS DESILVA: That’s my understanding, yes.

PN134

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN135

MS DESILVA: I might just also, your Honour, table a document from Sue Bussell who is the general manager of industrial relations at Qantas Airways. In that letter Sue outlines - and it’s dated 7 March 2003. I'll just find that for you and I'll just table that.

PN136

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Look, I think we’ll mark these documents so that we can keep track of them.

PN137

MS DESILVA: Yes.

MFI #A1 LETTER FROM SUE BUSSELL TO LINDA WHITE DATED 07/03/2003
MFI #R1 LETTER FROM LINDA WHITE TO SUE BUSSELL DATED 20/07/2007
MFI #R2 LETTER FROM LINDA WHITE TO SUE BUSSELL DATED 24/07/2007
MFI #R3 LETTER FROM SUE BUSSELL FROM LINDA WHITE 10/08/2007
MFI #R4 JOB DESCRIPTOR

PN138

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Now, you were taking me to that letter.

PN139

MS DESILVA: Yes, sorry. And a related letter, your Honour, is the Qantas Classification Structure Anomalies from Sue Bussell to Linda White and it’s relating to the same issue.

PN140

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do I have that?

PN141

MS DESILVA: No you don’t, sorry.

PN142

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That’s just one letter, is it?

PN143

MS DESILVA: It is. It’s part of a bundle of documents around EBA6 which I'll talk to that if you like.

PN144

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, it’s one page, but it seems as though it should be more than one page.

PN145

MS DESILVA: It follows on to the next page I think. No?

PN146

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, it goes for seven pages, does it?

PN147

MS DESILVA: Yes it does.

PN148

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. It’s a four page letter, is it?

PN149

MS DESILVA: That's right, yes.

PN150

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. You don’t have a copy of the letter available? Do you have copies available or would you like us to make copies now?

PN151

MS DESILVA: Sorry, that’s your copy. You can have that.

PN152

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There’s a whole bundle of documents though.

PN153

MS DESILVA: Yes. That’s the - - -

PN154

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So what are you tendering? What are you asking me to look at?

PN155

MS DESILVA: It’s the EBA6 with the attached letters.

PN156

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see, yes.

PN157

MS DESILVA: So they’ve got context to the particular correspondence I’m talking about.

PN158

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, okay.

MFI #A2 EBA6

PN159

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And you’re drawing my attention to the letter of 10 September?

PN160

MS DESILVA: That’s right.

PN161

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Smith?

PN162

MR SMITH: Your Honour, look, it might be a bit of a preliminary observation, but I’m not sure that the correspondence that’s been attached to the back of the enterprise agreement actually forms part of the certified agreement. I don’t think it might have been a document that the parties exchanged around about the time of the making of the enterprise agreement.

PN163

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Whatever. The only thing I’m interested in is that letter of 10 September.

PN164

MR SMITH: Yes. Thank you, your Honour.

PN165

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN166

MS DESILVA: In relation to the letter dated 7 March 2003 which I initially gave you, your Honour?

PN167

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN168

MS DESILVA: Yes, Sue Bussell who is the general manager of industrial relations at Qantas Airways Limited states that:

PN169

The principal for the use of training grades would be included in the preamble to the descriptors as well as at level 1 and 2 of the generic descriptors and Qantas would write to the ASU providing information on the current application of these principals. Examples of the current application of principal by Qantas taking into account changes arising from EBA6 and the skill descriptor negotiations are detailed below.

PN170

And then if you turn over the page, your Honour, it says under Airports Customer Service Agent:

PN171

Two to six on the job training at level 2 followed by a progression to level 3 subject to meeting the required standards, however the normal progression period is two months with staff who have not me the required standards for this role having their training period extended.

PN172

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, this all hinges on whether or not these people are customer service agents or something new.

PN173

MS DESILVA: That's right.

PN174

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN175

MS DESILVA: Yes.

PN176

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, that’s the point we need to get to.

PN177

MS DESILVA: Would you like us to table the skills matrix which demonstrates that?

PN178

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It’s a matter for you if you want to. I won’t stop you. But do you want to go with the letter of 10 September, the earlier letter of 10 September 2002? Why have you drawn that to my attention?

PN179

MS DESILVA: It’s a part of EBA6.

PN180

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN181

MS DESILVA: And it demonstrates - - -

PN182

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There are lots of things that are part of EBA6.

PN183

MS DESILVA: That's right.

PN184

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You want me to look at them all?

PN185

MS DESILVA: It demonstrates our understanding of the meaning of the terms that were inserted, clause 30, into the current EBA7.

PN186

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Where do I look? What part of that letter do you want to draw to my attention?

PN187

MS DESILVA: The Sydney International.

PN188

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry?

PN189

MS DESILVA: The Sydney International Terminal position. Sorry, I actually don’t have a copy now in front of me.

PN190

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is that special assist agents?

PN191

MS DESILVA: That's right, yes.

PN192

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN193

MS DESILVA: Thank you, your Honour. So under point 4 of that correspondence.

PN194

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Special assist agents at SIT will be reclassified from level 1 to level 2?

PN195

MS DESILVA: That's right.

PN196

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, very well. Thank you.

PN197

MS DESILVA: Thank you. So I don’t think I'll say any more on that point.

PN198

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right.

PN199

MS DESILVA: Except to say that we think the words are pretty clear, that it’s an exclusion that level 2 for Sydney International Terminal would be an exception to the general rule that level 3 is the entry level position for customer service agents.

PN200

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, yes. Yes, go on. I want to get into this conference. I don’t want to take too long.

PN201

MS DESILVA: No worries. Just the last point is in relation to the job descriptions and the level 2 and level 3 descriptors that Qantas have tabled. The job advertisements I should say.

PN202

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN203

MS DESILVA: The ASU actually had requested this information from Qantas but wasn’t given it and came across the position descriptions on the Qantas intranet site. We actually found there were two position descriptions.

PN204

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Does this go to the alleged lack of consultation, does it?

PN205

MS DESILVA: It does. And also to the fact that we’re a bit unclear what the substantive role actually is because there were two job descriptions put on the intranet. One was pulled out and the other one remained on and despite our efforts to try and find out exactly what level 2 staff are doing we’re not entirely clear exactly what they’re doing. But having a read of the job description that was tabled by Qantas it’s pretty clear that part of the role ought to be classified under level 3. If it assists you I’m happy to table to two different job descriptions that were posted on the Qantas intranet site.

PN206

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That may just further confuse the issue. Mr Smith, which is the one that they’re working to?

PN207

MR SMITH: Your Honour, the employees have been engaged in response of the advertisement that I’ve handed up to you and which you’ve marked.

PN208

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All the employees have been engaged
in - - -

PN209

MR SMITH: Yes in Melbourne, yes, on the document marked R4. So we would say that’s the document that we need to focus on.

PN210

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. At this stage, Ms DeSilva, I can’t see the need to go into the other one. If something transpires that causes the need to do so, we will.

PN211

MS DESILVA: Okay. Thanks, your Honour.

PN212

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Did you want to hand up the job matrix?

PN213

MS DESILVA: Yes.

PN214

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And is that something that’s commercial in confidence, is it?

PN215

MS DESILVA: It is actually. So should we wait to do that until we have
some .....

PN216

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I'll treat it as such. It will be placed in a sealed envelope on the file.

PN217

MS DESILVA: Thank you.

PN218

MR SMITH: Yes thank you, your Honour.

PN219

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The Airline Officers Award Position Matrix dated 1 September 2002 I'll mark as A3 and it will be a confidential document that will be placed in a sealed envelope on the file and the envelope will be marked commercial in confidence.

MFI #A3 POSITION MATRIX DATED 01/09/2002

PN220

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And what do you want to take me to there? Do you want to take me to anything in there and should we treat this part of the transcript as confidential then?

PN221

MR SMITH: Your Honour, I’d suggest that would be best. That way I don’t need to delay with seeking instructions.

PN222

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, very well. Well, from this point forward until further notice the transcript will be also treated as confidential.

CONTINUED IN TRANSCRIPT IN CONFIDENCE

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

MFI #A1 LETTER FROM SUE BUSSELL TO LINDA WHITE DATED 07/03/2003 PN137
MFI #R1 LETTER FROM LINDA WHITE TO SUE BUSSELL DATED 20/07/2007 PN137
MFI #R2 LETTER FROM LINDA WHITE TO SUE BUSSELL DATED 24/07/2007 PN137
MFI #R3 LETTER FROM SUE BUSSELL FROM LINDA WHITE 10/08/2007 PN137
MFI #R4 JOB DESCRIPTOR PN137
MFI #A2 EBA6 PN158
MFI #A3 POSITION MATRIX DATED 01/09/2002 PN219