C2007/2739, Transcript of Proceedings [2007] AIRCTrans 645 (4 December 2007)

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

---

Workplace Relations Act 1996 17735-1

COMMISSIONER GAY

C2007/2739

s.170LW - prereform Act - Appl’n for settlement of dispute (certified agreement)
Automotive, Food, Metals, Engineering, Printing and Kindred Industries Union
and
Holden Ltd
(C2007/2739)

MELBOURNE

WEDNESDAY, 31 OCTOBER 2007

Continued from 14/6/2007

Hearing continuing

PN1

MR M GEORGIOU: I appear on behalf of the AFMEPKIU together with MR G ORAM.

PN2

MR C MEALLIN: I appear on behalf of GM Holden Ltd together with MS E GROVER.

PN3

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thanks. All right, gentlemen, the material has been received you filed consistent with the directions that have been issued, and I'll mark those now. The submissions under your hand, Mr Georgiou, of 22 October can be G1. And those under yours, Mr Meallin, I'll give these new exhibit numbers, I'm not sure about the previous exhibits, but this will be M1.

EXHIBIT #G1 AMWU SUBMISSIONS
EXHIBIT #M1 GM HOLDEN SUBMISSIONS

PN4

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Georgiou?

PN5

MR GEORGIOU: Commissioner, just briefly before we go into the evidence that's to be presented by the union a couple of responses to the issues in dispute in the submissions of Holden. Mr Meallin has in his say that the document - this is in his issues in dispute which is the first attachment - the document between the parties to give full effect has been completed except for some final minor amendments currently under discussion. That's sort of right. There are a couple of issues that the union has picked up and responded to the company on, and it is fair to say that we're just about there but, as the Commission would know, leading at the second last hurdle doesn't mean you get over the final one. So we're hopeful that we can finalise that and finalise that shortly.

PN6

THE COMMISSIONER: Can I ask you about that, Mr Georgiou, please? Is it right, Mr Meallin has described them as some final amendments, and it might be that you would describe them somewhat differently, but is it the case that between the parties what's been spoken of there is fundamentally agreed and there are no major disagreed issues?

PN7

MR GEORGIOU: There's probably one and maybe two issues that we need to have a face to face meeting just to get a better understanding of one or two. I can't elevate them to high. I'd say that they were of moderate concern. As you can see in appendix A, Commissioner, most of the changes have been done electronically, which is why I've included them. There is one for example on the fifth page with regard to the grievance and disputes process that needs to be tidied up, and there's actually on the last page where the company hasn't given itself a position on the dispute settlement procedure.

PN8

Now, I don't see that as being a huge hurdle, but the union was tempted to leave it as it was because that would have given all of the powers to settle any dispute to the union. But we thought it was only fair that it be a democratic process involving all of the parties. And I understand from Mr Picci that he has a further issue that he's corresponded with Mr Meallin on, and hopefully they can sort it out on the ground. So we're nearly there, Commissioner. On the issues in - - -

PN9

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, just before you go off that point, and Mr Meallin can also consider this. I must say I don't form the view, I do not form the view that these are major aspects or that they should be troubling in the sense of tripwires, because I've accepted that both parties have done what I would think is very clearly their responsibility under the agreement, that is, brought the non agreed issues here for determination, there having been an earnest effort, a real fair dinkum effort to reach agreement.

PN10

So in some other situation one might think, well, is there a bit of wriggle room here for one of the parties? And I do not form that view. If there were some aspects of review that can't be agreed then I'm sure that there will be some discussions to resolve that, and the fact of non agreement of the review, or some issue requiring further attention won't cause any upset along the way.

PN11

MR GEORGIOU: I don't believe it will.

PN12

THE COMMISSIONER: I'm accepting it in that way.

PN13

MR GEORGIOU: And so whilst it hasn't been concluded we categorised it as the first issue that was in dispute. And when I get to the submission with regard to Elizabeth our contention is that it is the first issue in dispute because the work hasn't been done and the parties need to do considerably more. They will be assisted by the fact that they have the Fishermen's Bend document as more than a guide. I think it will be a significant influence on the way that they formulate their document.

PN14

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I follow that, thank you.

PN15

MR GEORGIOU: But the two issues if I can get to it and leave that one aside, the two real issues in dispute are whether or not there has been a net increase in the responsibilities of the team leaders at Fishermen's Bend that would justify - that's the first issue in dispute, has there been a net increase in responsibilities at Fishermen's Bend? If the Commission is persuaded by the union's arguments that there is then the second issue in dispute is what flows from that with regard to adjustments to the allowance or other forms of remuneration that may be available.

PN16

The submission of the union will be that if the Commission finds that there is a net additional increase in responsibilities that rather than deciding that issue straight out that the Commission would direct the parties to try and resolve that between them without having recourse to the Commission to make a determination on that. But failing the parties reaching some understanding we would then ask the Commission to view that in a supplementary way.

PN17

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN18

MR GEORGIOU: All of what I've said with regard to that equally applies to Elizabeth in South Australia save that the union agrees that there hasn't been enough work done by the parties in accordance with clause 15 of the 2004 EBA which is contained in the outline of submissions by the union. And that may lead the Commission to - although we say it won't, but there may be some issues. So that is the further issue in dispute between the parties, that they haven't done what they said that they would do.

PN19

There may also be - it may be open to the Commission to find that there hasn't been a consistent increase in responsibilities between Fishermen's Bend and Elizabeth, and that may lead the Commission to Commission to come to alternative conclusions with regard to that. Then again the evidence of the union will be that there has been a net additional increase in the responsibilities of team leaders at Elizabeth even though they are remiss in not advancing the documentation, that that isn't a flaw to the submission of the union, that there has been this increase.

PN20

THE COMMISSIONER: Just before you conclude on that point, Mr Georgiou, it might be as well almost in a housekeeping sense but, Mr Meallin, can I ask you this? And I think I know the answer to the question, but is it Holden's view that in a general sense it concurs with the approach just outlined by - forgetting South Australia, if you could just go back a step - the overall approach that Mr Georgiou advances, and that is - perhaps it's as well to repeat it so it's clear - that in the event that there is said to be, and to use Mr Georgiou's phrase, a net additional increase in responsibilities, that the first phase would be, were that, the finding, to announce that to the parties and then allow the parties to endeavour to reach agreement amongst themselves about what that all meant, and then failing agreement that the parties would come back and we'd take up phase two.

PN21

MR MEALLIN: Yes. Look, I think so, Commissioner. As I've laid out in my point L, that this whole issue about the methodology of how would such an increase be constructed if it was deemed that there was an increase in the net level of responsibility, hasn't really come onto the radar because the whole focus of course has been on the difference between, is there or is there not an increase in level of responsibility? So I think that would be a sensible way to proceed if that was to transpire.

PN22

THE COMMISSIONER: All right, thanks. But I understand that's not your approach of course. Thanks Mr Meallin.

PN23

MR GEORGIOU: It has come on the radar, Commissioner, because in the company's documentation - and I'm at a loss to find it now - they do talk about the allowance having been established originally at eight per cent above the position of the leading hand. So there has been a line drawn in the sand with regard to that.

PN24

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, that's at point (w).

PN25

MR GEORGIOU: Yes, thank you, Commissioner. So I am mindful that that has been raised and it was an issue that the union was going to raise at some stage. Just a tidying up exercise, in (k) of the issues in dispute Mr Meallin seeks to consummate the allowance, and I've asked him whether that might be commensurate - - -

PN26

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, if you're going to commence making something of any infelicities, Mr Georgiou, you'll just encourage Mr Meallin. All right, well, let's move on.

PN27

MR GEORGIOU: The issue in Q, Holden maintains that the HBO document cannot give rise to a claim for an increase in the team leader rate under clause 15 as there is no new document developed, I've addressed the Commission on that. I believe that that's not correct, that once the Commission has examined - I don't think it's fatal to the union's claim that the documentation is prepared in advance of the Commission finding that there is an increase in responsibilities. And in (s) of the issues in dispute, given that the work undertaken by the team leader et cetera is the same function working to the same standardised GMS systems, we say that we dispute that that is a correct statement. We say that it is open to the Commission to find that the work is not of a similar standard or responsibility, and the Commission may find. I'm not making any submissions on that, but I think that that statement is just incorrect. So that's simply on that.

PN28

I'm not going to go into - I'll cover responses to - and I think it's the best course. With regard to the outline of submissions of the company I think it's best left if the Commission is going to direct the parties to submit closing submissions in writing, which has been the practice in the past, that I address those in my closing submissions rather than take up time now.

PN29

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I can understand you might not want to make a more detailed opening, Mr Georgiou.

PN30

MR GEORGIOU: And on that basis the union is going to call three witnesses, Commissioner. The purpose of calling the three witnesses is to demonstrate to the Commission the changes that have occurred in the responsibilities of the team leaders without focusing on the document that's been negotiated because that hasn't been approved by the union and the team leaders, and that's why I also say with regard to South Australia it's not the germane issue for the witnesses to focus on, but simply for the union to demonstrate to the Commission via the evidence of these witnesses that the job is fundamentally changed and the responsibilities on the shoulders of the team leaders is more significant than it was at the time of the 1994 which was varied slightly in 1996 memorandum of understanding which is appendix B of the union's submission, Commissioner. If I could call my first witness?

PN31

THE COMMISSIONER: We'll just talk about witnesses, Mr Georgiou. I don't know if the - you've got your three witnesses present?

PN32

MR GEORGIOU: Yes.

PN33

THE COMMISSIONER: Are you proposing to send the other witnesses out and the company witnesses out?

PN34

MR GEORGIOU: Mr Meallin and I discussed this and we don't think it's so intense a hearing that we need to remove people from the Commission.

PN35

THE COMMISSIONER: Very well.

PN36

MR GEORGIOU: If I could call my first witness, Mr McDonald.

<DANNY MCDONALD, AFFIRMED [10.20AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GEORGIOU

PN37

MR GEORGIOU: Mr McDonald, for the record could you state your full name and address please?---Yes. My name is Danny McDonald (address supplied).

PN38

Have you prepared a witness statement for these proceedings?---Yes.

PN39

Do you believe the contents of that witness statement to be true and correct?
---Yes, I do.

PN40

Commissioner, could I have the witness statement marked?

EXHIBIT #G2 STATEMENT OF DANNY MCDONALD

PN41

MR GEORGIOU: Mr McDonald, since making that statement have you become aware of the statement of Ms Michelle Spencer on behalf of the company?---Yes, I have.

PN42

Have you gone through Ms Spencer's statement?---Yes.

PN43

I'd like to ask you some questions with regard to your statement that Ms Spencer takes issue with if I could. Have you got your statement with you?---Yes, I do.

PN44

Have you also got the memorandum of understanding Work Organisation Report document?---Yes, I do.

PN45

Are you familiar with that document?---Yes, fairly.

PN46

Your witness statement at point 4, you state:

PN47

I am now obliged to create an SOS standard operating sheet or job element sheet where I look at cycle times, build demand and how to divide the time taken to maximise production and line balance.

PN48

Who used to perform that task?---This role was done previously by industrial engineers, process engineers who look after mainly cycle time issues and things like that and help create the SOS.

PN49

Thank you. Were team leaders previously involved in creating and updating SOS?---Yes.

**** DANNY MCDONALD XN MR GEORGIOU
PN50

They've always had to do that?---When I stepped into the role not so much. Now it seems to be more focused on the team leader actually creating and updating and maintaining.

PN51

Do you get any assistance from more senior employees, for example the engineers that you refer to?---In recent circumstances, yes, but not so much previously. I'm saying, like, I'm talking in the last months, you know, the last few months.

PN52

You talk about total productive maintenance, TPM, in your statement, and I take you to the first reference of that which is in paragraph 11 of your statement. You're now responsible for TPM, total productive maintenance sheets and quality work sheets. Ms Spencer says that that's a maintenance job. Do you agree with that?---No.

PN53

Who does that job?---We actually create a TPM sheet now where, depending on the equipment that we're working with we look at what actually failed on that machine and we keep data, and from that we create the actual preventative sheets that actually go up.

PN54

Who used to do that?---Maintenance.

PN55

So you perform a function that was previously performed by maintenance?
---Correct.

PN56

Why don't you just get maintenance to keep doing it?---It's been delegated to us, our supervisor has asked us to maintain a TPM sheet for that.

PN57

Who asked you to?---Our supervisor, our group leader.

PN58

Is it just you or is all, to the best of your knowledge, other team leaders as well?
---As far as I know in the plant that I work which is plant 18 it's across the whole team leaders.

PN59

And you were asked by your supervisor to perform this function. Thank you. With regard to paragraph 25 of your statement, team leaders at HEO have to carry out safety observation tours, layered audits, error proofing et cetera on a daily basis. I'll go to the layered audits first. How long have team leaders performed audits?---As far as I can remember possibly five years.

**** DANNY MCDONALD XN MR GEORGIOU
PN60

So prior to that audits were not performed by team leaders?---Correct.

PN61

Thank you.

PN62

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Georgiou, it would probably be easier, and we won't be too strict about this, but it would be better if the evidence all comes from - I'll make sure Mr Meallin doesn't lead his witnesses. On factual matters it doesn't matter.

PN63

MR GEORGIOU: I was hoping to get away with that.

PN64

THE COMMISSIONER: No, it's all right. Audits for five years, very well.

PN65

MR GEORGIOU: What does an audit involve?---It involves us going to an actual particular station within our area. It doesn't mean to be an area but quite often it is because of work load I suppose, and it's actually looking at a job, how it's done, is everything - is our documentation up to date, our SOS, our JES, our job safety instructions, our TPM, all that sort of documentation we have at the station, make sure that the operators are actually following that operation, that standard operation that we have there, and yes, that's basically it.

PN66

Would you agree with Ms Spencer's statement that this audit process is simply a more formalised process than it was before, so that all you're doing is formalising a process that has always been there?---No. As far as I can remember it was never done by a team leader, a team leader never looked after that.

PN67

Thank you. In paragraph 27 of your statement you state:

PN68

As a team leader I have to fill out exception reports and submit these to group leaders, a job that was exclusive to group leaders before.

PN69

Is that part of the job of the team leader?---Previously no. It was delegated to us by our supervisors I think because we are more familiar with our team, we know our team better than the supervisor, we can monitor it easier rather than them monitoring it sort of thing. So yes, it's delegated back to us.

PN70

Thank you. In paragraph 29, and this one I'll ask you to go into some detail about. It's the monitoring of absenteeism including annual leave et cetera. Ms Spencer says that managing absenteeism is not the role of the team leader. Is that correct?
---It is our job. We have a designated team, whatever it may be, five to whatever people, five to 12 people, and we have to monitor that, okay, we're not going to have two people on long service leave at the same time otherwise we're going to be short of people, you know, we have to allocate that time or try and negotiate with the people, could you possibly take your leave later or earlier, things like that.

**** DANNY MCDONALD XN MR GEORGIOU
PN71

Who used to do that?---That would be a supervisor role so a group leader.

PN72

Why don't you get them to do it now?---They've asked us to do it.

PN73

They've asked you to do it, thank you. Paragraph 37:

PN74

I am expected to follow up and liaise with different departments to resolve issues raised by the blue card system.

PN75

Can you explain for my benefit as well as for the Commission the blue card system?---Okay. It's a system where we identify a fault, we find a fault, for example a quality issue is the main reason behind it, and we'll take that issue and its traceability. Where did we find it? We go through a checklist on this blue card it's called, and it's to help identify where the actual issue came from and to try and solve it so it doesn't happen again.

PN76

So you are asked to - - -?---Problem solve.

PN77

Who used to do that?---As far as I know it was the quality assurance department.

PN78

Why doesn't the quality assurance department do it now?---I think this is part of GMS thing, I think it's been delegated down to the team leader, the responsibility has been passed on to us.

PN79

Ms Spencer says that you should refer it to that department I think, the quality department. Why don't you?---Well, what we do is we identify the fault, we actually trace the fault back to where it come from, and then we have to allocate some work or we might have to see a quality assurance person, we might have to see a maintenance person to come and actually help us solve this. So we are the driving force behind the blue card system, we drive it, we deliver what needs to be done to whoever.

PN80

Who asked you to implement the blue card system?---As far as I know that was our area manager.

PN81

Thank you. In paragraph 40 you assist members in filling out forms et cetera. What percentage of the workforce did you look after from non English speaking backgrounds?---There is a fair chunk. We have people from all different cultures, all different races, some really struggle with English, others are very fluent. It does make it difficult for myself. I only speak one language, I can only talk in English. Quite often I'll have to call on other team leaders to try and help me communicate sometimes with some of these people.

**** DANNY MCDONALD XN MR GEORGIOU
PN82

Do you think it's part of your job to fill in these forms?---Previously it wasn't my responsibility, it was not my job to fill out a safety issue order form or something, it was directed to the supervisor. You would go and see your supervisor and the supervisor would fill out the paperwork.

PN83

Another key - - -

PN84

THE COMMISSIONER: Just a moment, Mr Georgiou.

PN85

What was the example you gave there, Mr McDonald, what was the form?---We use the forms, safety issues for example.

PN86

Safety issue, I see. I'm sorry, go on, thank you. Yes?

PN87

MR GEORGIOU: Another key issue that arises out of Ms Spencer's evidence is in 44:

PN88

I'm expected to induct and train new team members into the team and assess their on the job work performance.

PN89

Do you train them?---Yes. Yes, we do. We bring people into our teams and, I mean, so yes, coming back to this English speaking issue. Sometimes it's quite difficult to induct somebody into a group and make them feel part of the team, so training them can be difficult and there's no real support for the team leader in that regard. You're on your own unless you call on the assistance of another team leader.

PN90

Who used to train the team leaders?---There was a designated trainer, there were designated trainers who would do that.

PN91

You've stated that you understand the memorandum of understanding. You're expected as part of the responsibilities there to mentor?---Yes.

PN92

Do you believe that the training you provide is mentoring?---It's very on the go quite often. I mean, we're in a production environment and we have to make our targets and make our production, so mentoring, no, not so much. I think it's more this is the job, let's go.

PN93

Paragraphs 52 to 53 of your statement where you - sorry, it's 53 mainly, where you were asked to speak directly with suppliers to resolve issues about their products?---Yes.

**** DANNY MCDONALD XN MR GEORGIOU
PN94

Why do you do that?---Quite often during these verification meetings we'll have a supplier come into the plant who will want to look at a defective part, and I think our supplier quality assurance department find it easier for us to speak directly to the supplier because we can relay the information a lot easier, we know exactly what the fault is. Sometimes it gets lost in the interpretation.

PN95

Who asked you to perform this task?---Supervisor, SQA.

PN96

So the quality assurance department has asked?---Yes, and our supervisors have asked us to speak too.

PN97

Why don't you just get the supplier quality assurance department to do it?---We've been asked to do it.

PN98

Thank you. With regard to paragraphs 56, 7 and 8 with regard to scrap analysis sheets et cetera, did team leaders always perform those tasks?---Scrap analysis when I first started off as a team leader, no. It was the responsibility of a salvage area, there was an actual person designated to that particular job, he'd go round and assess the scrap, whether it could be - whether it was our scrap or a supplier's scrap. Now that's actually up to us, we identify where the scraps come from and tag it appropriately.

PN99

What happened to those poor souls that used to do that in the past?---Disappeared.

PN100

Cost cutting I suppose. Fifty nine to 62 again we get onto total preventative maintenance. Ms Spencer says that it's not your job to do any of these changing of sockets or parts et cetera. Is it your job?---Yes, definitely. Anything - there's a term, touch the part, phrase that gets quoted around a fair bit, if an actual part of the machine touches part of the engine we're responsible for that, so sometimes it could be sockets, sometimes it could be guides. We're actually responsible for those and to order them if we need them, we have to order them in.

PN101

Who told you to do all that?---That's been delegated through our supervisors and our managers, our plant area manager.

PN102

Why don't you get maintenance to do all that?---It's been delegated to us, our supervisors asked us to do it.

PN103

Okay, 79, with regard to using computers and the email system, I think it's got a Greek name?---Socrates.

**** DANNY MCDONALD XN MR GEORGIOU
PN104

Socrates, there you go, very philosophical at General Motors. Why do you communicate via email?---My area manager actually asked me to have an email account set up so that he could email me information whether it be from him, it could be from engineers, it could be from quality departments, whoever, group leaders, other team leaders.

PN105

Thank you. Eighty seven, communication from group leaders carried on to team members, that should be and these instructions are understood and implemented. Why is that a new responsibility, why weren't you always doing that?---Quite often the supervisor would actually speak directly to the people. Now it's either sent via email and interpretation can be varied from people to people, so I have to read it and interpret it myself and then pass on the information. Quite often the possibility is that it could be passed on incorrectly.

PN106

Who used to do that?---It would be a supervisor role, that's the direct.

PN107

And who asked you to do that?---The division.

PN108

Thank you. Eighty eight, where you work on the line sometimes and yet you're expected to do all of the other duties. Ms Spencer says that you're not supposed to do that and you can't do that. Do you agree with that?---Not at all.

PN109

If you work on the line in a relief situation do you still - do you get allowances to not conclude other parts of your job because of that time spent?---If we're actually on the assembly line covering for absenteeism we're asked to follow up with our layered audits, our safety observation tours, verification, our SPQRC sheet, if it's not done today then you catch up tomorrow.

PN110

Okay. At paragraph 90 you received another sheet that you needed to fill in which involves being accountable for and spelling out when a quality issue is picked up at the end of the line. The team leader is then to stipulate when they responded, the date and the time, why the issue occurred and what they will do to stop it happening again. Why do you do that?---That's a very recent addition to not all team leaders jobs but particular team leader jobs, especially towards the end of the production line. We have our buy out station where an operator will find a defect for example, he will call upon a team leader to go down and actually look at the problem. We have to fill in what happened, the time, the date, your name and what you are going to do, what action you're going to take to rectify it. So quite often you'll return to your team and say okay, well, we're going to put this check in place or do this, we're going to make it part of the standard process.

**** DANNY MCDONALD XN MR GEORGIOU
PN111

Who used to do that?---This is just a new creation. As far as I know it would have been quality I guess, it would come up with a quality alert.

PN112

And who asked you to do this?---My area manager.

PN113

Thank you. In paragraphs 92, 93, 94 you talk about additional responsibilities with regard to supervisors. Could you explain to the Commission what responsibilities you've taken on that used to be performed by supervisors?---Many different things. I mean, you know, from what we were talking about before with the ordering forms, being accountable for quality issues, being accountable for the costs that you have in your zone, being accountable for your maintenance on certain equipment, your people, being accountable for your people, are they doing what they're supposed to be doing, are they doing it correctly? It's endless, you know.

PN114

Okay. And with regard to maintenance what functions do you perform now that used to be performed by maintenance?---This socket changing thing. For an example if a socket was to break in a particular machine now we actually lock out on equipment, we have to go in behind a guard, so we lock out the equipment, go inside the machine, remove, if there's guarding around the sockets for example, remove that, replace the socket, guard set up, start the equipment again.

PN115

And one final question. Are you responsible for any budgets?---Yes, I look after - myself, no. Other team leaders, yes, they're responsible for their usage. So it does vary from zone to zone.

PN116

Thank you. You're aware of other team leaders who are responsible for budgets?
---Yes.

PN117

In the memorandum of understanding, appendix B, is there anywhere in that document to your knowledge that deals with team leaders being responsible for budgets?---I think it says something about being control boss or something like that. We're actually - we actually have a board put up where we monitor our costs, and down the bottom we actually have an action sheet, if we're going over our budget what action we're going to take to minimise the impact on our budget.

PN118

I've got no further questions, Commissioner.

**** DANNY MCDONALD XN MR GEORGIOU
PN119

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thanks, Mr Georgiou. Yes, Mr Meallin?

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEALLIN [10.43AM]

PN120

MR MEALLIN: Mr McDonald, how long have you actually been a team leader at GM Holden?---Around about eight years I think it is.

PN121

Eight years. And prior to that you were what?---An assembly line operator.

PN122

So when you came in as a team leader had you actually been a leading hand under the old system, or went straight in as a team leader?---When I first started it was a synchronous work unit leader and then, yes, progressed.

PN123

Okay. In point 4 you make mention of the standard operating sheets, the SOSs previously being done by the industrial engineers?---Mm.

PN124

In Ms Spencer's statement she says that there's a process going in place where all the SOSs are either being or have been updated but team leaders will continue as a matter of course to update them?---Yes.

PN125

Do you see the updating of the SOS sheets as being a normal part of the team leader role?---Yes. Now, yes, I do. I see it as part of our normal function.

PN126

I draw your attention to point 11 of your statement whereby you say:

PN127

I'm also responsible for TPM, total productive maintenance sheets, and quality alert sheets.

PN128

In Ms Spencer's statement it's the team leaders perform a check sheet function which requires them to inspect and report issues to maintenance to the supervisor depending on the nature of issue. It is then the responsibility of maintenance to do any of the mechanical work to resolve the issue. So are you - I think you said in your evidence that that has been delegated to you as the team leader by the group leader or the supervisor?---Yes.

PN129

When did this actually occur?---When we started in our new plant in plant 18. Most of this TPM actually where touched the part came into it evolved, so the operator was - the team leader was then responsible for replacing the socket, replacing the guide. So we're talking five years I suppose.

**** DANNY MCDONALD XXN MR MEALLIN
PN130

So back to round about, what, 2002 or so?---2002, something like that, yes.

PN131

Okay. But in terms of the check sheet function what does that actually involve?
---It's actually not a check sheet, it's the actual what you are to check on the thing, on the equipment, sorry. We create that, so we take in data, so we analyse, like, a socket might break every 10,000 cycles for example, so we create the sheet to say that every 9000 cycles replace the socket, every 5000 cycles replace the guide.

PN132

Okay. But Ms Spencer's statement points out that your requirement is to inspect and report the issues. So do you feel that you're stepping beyond what is required of you as a team leader?---Depending on the nature of the maintenance, there's certain things that are in our control and there's certain things that aren't. Some things have to be passed on to our maintenance department, so we will alert whoever is responsible and go to our maintenance supervisor or our group leaders for example.

PN133

Would you say that your supervisor and maintenance are readily accessible when you need them?---Yes.

PN134

All right, moving on to point 25 of your statement in regard to the layered audits, I think you made mention that team leaders have been doing that for, again, approximately a five year period but they had not been doing it prior to that?
---Correct.

PN135

What do you see as being the significance of that in terms of responsibility of the team leader?---I'm not sure how to answer that actually. Can you rephrase it?

PN136

Well, let me perhaps put it another way. In your time as a team leader has it become more complex?---Definitely. Paperwork load has increased, layered audit was something that we'd never done before, this is a new incentive that's come into our plant is the way I saw it. When we opened the plant this came in.

PN137

Do you think the layered audit process helps you do your job more effectively or is it a hindrance?---It is a hindrance when you're doing it daily. I mean, it's time away from maintaining your zone, looking after your people, looking after your quality and all that sort of stuff. It does take you away. You actually have to spend time in a particular area. It could be up to 10 minutes by the time you've done one of these sheets, yes.

**** DANNY MCDONALD XXN MR MEALLIN
PN138

But overall does it help you do your job as a team leader more effectively?---I can't see how it does, no, not at all.

PN139

Well, in terms of how that task fits in with the total scheme of the production operation can you see the benefits of why the team leader would be doing that?---I can understand why, because we're front line, we're the person there, we're probably going to see a lot more things than other people are, for example supervisors. We're there on a daily basis whereas a supervisor is not there from time to time, and it's actually interacting with the people at that job so you do get a bit of feedback.

PN140

All right, moving on to point 27 in your statement:

PN141

As a team leader I have to fill out exception reports, take these to group leaders, a job that was exclusive to group leaders before.

PN142

For the benefit of the Commission can you just briefly describe what an exception report is?---It's a sheet with people's names on it, Monday to Friday on it, it monitors people's attendance, overtime, things like that. So we actually mark on the sheet if someone's worked back some overtime or something like that, and the hours, a person who has been away, what day they were absent, how long they were absent, if the come in and out of work, for example they've gone home for an hour and come back, we actually mark that in.

PN143

So whose responsibility in the organisation is it to sign off these sheets?---The supervisor.

PN144

So your role with these sheets I think you said is to, well, monitor and input. So therefore are you the go-between between the supervisor and the data collection in that regard?---Correct, yes. We are given the sheet at, for example, Monday morning, by Friday it has to be submitted, so it will take all that data throughout the week, hand it to the supervisor, the supervisor will sign it off.

PN145

Right. Now, I think you mentioned that it covers any absence from the line, that could be someone who is off sick, on leave, an RDO, someone who is a late arrival, who has been delayed coming in to work?---Yes.

PN146

Do you actually have a role in having to follow up that individual and talk to them about that, or is your role solely to ensure that the data is prepared and away, that that can be taken back to the supervisor for further action?---We have been asked to talk to people, I think by our supervisors, and quite often I think the supervisor sees it, well, you work with them on a daily basis, you're mates, it's better if you talk to him than I do because it's seen as a heavy handed sort of tactic I guess if it's a supervisor coming down on a person, but if it's a team leader then no.

**** DANNY MCDONALD XXN MR MEALLIN
PN147

But it's not your responsibility?---It's been asked of us so I guess it is our responsibility if they're asking us to do it.

PN148

Yes. But what's being asked of you is to track the data on the sheets that then effectively gives a completed - well, an exception report to a supervisor as I understand it with the necessary information that they then would have to further action, and the responsibility would lay with the supervisor, am I correct?---Yes, if they don't ask us to speak to the people, because quite often it's asked of us, look, you know, George is having a few days off, have a word to him, see what's going on.

PN149

Well, where do you see the role of discipline for such a thing such as late arrivals?---Personally I will do that, I will talk to someone because they are work mates, but that's as far as I'll take it. If I need to then I'll pass that back to the supervisor to deal with it.

PN150

But has that ever been conveyed to you that that is your role to do that?---That I should pass it back to the supervisor?

PN151

No, that you should, say take someone aside and say look, you've been late a few times this week, up your act?---Yes.

PN152

But who is responsible officially or have the authority of - - -?---Officially I'd say a supervisor. Like I said to you earlier, I'll only take it to a certain extent and then I'll give it back to the supervisor to look after.

PN153

Okay. Point 29 in your statement which follows on in a similar vein, is about:

PN154

When I first started in the position is that I know that I have to monitor team member absenteeism.

PN155

By monitoring absenteeism, again, does this all come back to the exception report, that you need to provide accurate data for the supervisors so that they know at any given time who was there and who should be there, who is there, whatever?
---Sorry?

PN156

Sorry. Is it about, again, coming back to the exception sheet here, that if there's absenteeism, which would be unplanned absenteeism because presumably a team member hasn't turned up to work?---Correct.

**** DANNY MCDONALD XXN MR MEALLIN
PN157

But it's your role to promptly inform the supervisor which team members are not at their work station?---Yes.

PN158

MR GEORGIOU: Commissioner, can I intervene? The statement says that it is also planned absenteeism. If Mr Meallin wants to cross-examine on paragraph 29 he should portray that accurately or ask a separate question.

PN159

MR MEALLIN: All right. Well, if we take Mr Georgiou's point that it
involves - - -

PN160

THE COMMISSIONER: I take it that it should read it's now, I now have to do something which is new, it's just as well to deal with those different categories I would expect, Mr Meallin.

PN161

MR MEALLIN: Yes, all right. Well, then with the planned absenteeism, which obviously if it's something like annual leave that would have been pre approved sometime before the person took it?---Correct.

PN162

What is your role actually in feeding back that information to the supervisor? Is it just to remind the supervisor?---Well, quite often we fill out the actual form, we're asked to fill the leave form out for the operator and then to hand it back to the supervisor. What happens then is we have to look at, well, okay, we've got this guy going to be away for this week. Now, in the same week someone might come up and say I want that week off as well. And we have been asked to try to negotiate with the operators and things, can they have it before or after, so we don't have so many people away on the other zones.

PN163

So it's like a rostering function?---Yes. We maintain a roster of who is going to be there and who is not and how we're going to overcome, like, we might fill in for that week or we might get another team member out of another zone.

PN164

Well, was there a time as a team leader that you didn't do that and then it was put upon you to do it?---Not to monitor absenteeism. I was never asked to roster my leave of my zone.

PN165

So at what point in time were you asked to do that?---Probably in the last four or five years that this has been happening.

PN166

Well, I understand the approval actually for any planned leave would solely rest with the supervisor?---Correct.

**** DANNY MCDONALD XXN MR MEALLIN
PN167

So your role is keeping the supervisor up to date with where it's at. Anything else?---Well, like I said, quite often the supervisor will say yes, sign and hand the paper back. Now, he mightn't know that that's three people that are going to be out of my zone at that time, so I actually have to let him know this is coming out of my area, how are we going to deal with this, you know? My idea is how about we do this? Or their idea is, well, we'll stagger the leave.

PN168

Well, would you agree that that is just an incidental administrative function of the team?---Like I said, it's been asked of us to speak to the people, can you put off a week, can you put off here? I mean, we were never to deal with that.

PN169

But ultimately whose decision is it to approve the leave?---The supervisors approve it.

PN170

And review whether there's the right distribution of people off or on at any given time?---That's the supervisor.

PN171

The supervisor. So from your perspective as the team leader, from the time in the last five years or so that you've been asked to do this, where do you see the increase in responsibility?---That we're rostering, we look after the roster. We actually have to say to the supervisor this is, you know, this is what's going on, and we have to monitor it. We have to cover for it.

PN172

Well, if that was the case and you had problems or could see any problems would you have to work that out yourself or would you refer them to your supervisor?
---Quite often if its, you know, you might have an emergency where someone does have to take time off, well, we have to fill in sometimes. Sometimes we will run with that one person short, so it is myself that covers for it. I have to monitor that and adjust to that.

PN173

So what would you normally do in a give situation if it was something like that? Would you consult with your supervisor and discuss it with them?---Definitely.

PN174

And the supervisor presumably would assess the situation and make their views known to you?---Of course.

PN175

And then the supervisor presumably would then ask you to carry through with the transaction or part of that process which is filling out the leave form and doing whatever paperwork needed to be done for the supervisor to sign off, is that correct?---Correct.

**** DANNY MCDONALD XXN MR MEALLIN
PN176

All right, moving on to point 37:

PN177

I'm expected to follow up and liaise with different departments to resolve issues raised by the blue card system.

PN178

And I think you made the point that quality assurance did that previously?---Mm.

PN179

Ms Spencer's statement points out that:

PN180

The team leader's responsibility in relation to the blue card system involves filling it out accurately, ensuring the team leaders follow the standardised work practices as the first step in resolving problems, any follow up outside and ensuring that the standardised work practice is followed is escalated to the supervisor.

PN181

So where would you see that there's been an increase over time in responsibility with that?---We actually approach - if it's an equipment issue that may be faulty we actually go and see our maintenance department and ask them to look at it, which comes in again with our TPM thing where we bring that into a TPM perhaps, because maybe it's a wear issue that we have to maintain. So we do speak to different departments caused by this blue card system for example coming up. It could be a design fault, you know, we find something wrong with an actual part that we can't get this thing together or it's difficult to assemble, so we'll go and speak to the engineer, the MEs, the mechanical engineers and things like that, directly.

PN182

That's just one example of many no doubt where, as your role of team leader you'd be involved with liaising with a whole range of people in the organisation that interact with the team. Would you say that such a liaison is a fundamental part of the team leader role?---Now, yes, definitely. It definitely is. Previously everything was okay, you know, we've got a problem with this part to our supervisor, and our supervisor would follow up with it. Not it's our responsibility to go and contact that department, to send an email for example, to phone them, to call them on the radio.

PN183

Well, following on on point 36 where you say:

PN184

In the past we just provided them with the raw data and they processed it and followed it up on the rectification and problem resolving.

**** DANNY MCDONALD XXN MR MEALLIN
PN185

What is it that you're saying now that constitutes an increase in the level of responsibility?---We're directly responsible for highlighting the issue to the relevant department. Previously we would talk to our supervisor and the supervisor would follow up with that. Now that's our responsibility, we follow up.

PN186

Okay. But by then you mean that it's the quality department that you're providing with the raw data?---No. It could be various departments. Like I said, we could contact our maintenance department, we could contact our quality assurance department, we could contact our mechanical engineers, our process engineers, whoever we believe is responsible.

PN187

But if you were ever in doubt though who would be the right person or department to turn to, what would you do, who would you ask?---I'd contact my supervisor, he's going to advise me who to see.

PN188

And your supervisor would expect you to do that in such a circumstance?---Yes.

PN189

Okay. To turn now to point 40 of your statement:

PN190

Part of my additional duties is to fill out and assist in the filling out of forms for team members, including annual leave forms, sick leave, family leave, long service leave, leased cars, uniform and suggestions.

PN191

Which pretty much covers a very wide gamut of administration of being part of an organisation. You did make the point in your evidence before that that can sometimes be challenging or difficult because of the number of non English speaking background people that you may have in the team?---Correct.

PN192

And I think you said that previously that was not my responsibility. Why is that your responsibility now?---It's been delegated to us to fill out these forms. The supervisor asked us to fill out, you know, get George a shoe form, or something, whatever is required, and we'd fill it out for them or, like I said earlier, I'd go and see another team leader, can you help me interpret this?

PN193

Yes. But at the end of the day the ultimate responsibility lays with the supervisor does it not?---To hand out the form?

PN194

No, in terms of the forms getting back to the supervisor for approval?---Well, yes. They all have to be approved.

**** DANNY MCDONALD XXN MR MEALLIN
PN195

THE COMMISSIONER: I don't understand that answer, Mr Meallin.

PN196

Mr McDonald, it's not the supervisor's responsibility for you to give the completed form back to the supervisor, is that what your evidence is? Or is it, do you say it's your responsibility to do what's necessary to have it filled in accurately, including translation, then giving it to the supervisor?---Correct.

PN197

MR MEALLIN: But in terms of the form itself, and let's use, say annual leave, as an example, if the form's not filled out and the time comes for a person to proceed on leave, and all of a sudden the question gets asked about, well, where do you think you're going? Who cops it if that form's not filled out?---I would say the supervisor.

PN198

Okay. What about the team member, what equity or responsibility do they have in terms of ensuring that they have filled out a form for any planned absences?
---They're to give notice. I mean, it's not fill out a form today and go tomorrow quite often with a lot of these cases, because it has to be planned, or so called planned. The operator might speak to a team leader, can you help me, I want to fill out an annual leave form? Yes, look, you better chase this up with your supervisor first, you better ask him. They'll come back, okay, get a form for thingo, fill it out, give it to me at the end of the day or something. And then they're to give the confirmation on whether it's approved or not.

PN199

Well, in terms of the example you gave of the people who might struggle with the forms because perhaps they're of a non English speaking background, why would you perceive that as giving rise to an increased level of responsibility in your role?---It's time for me to go and find an interpreter. I have to try and help this guy fill out his form. He's come to me because he wants what he's asking for. He sees me as his team leader, so it's my job to try and help him as best I can.

PN200

Yes. But the interpreter could just as easily help that team member fill out the form though couldn't they?---Correct.

PN201

Like, people can sort of, I suppose, seek assistance from a whole range of areas?
---That's correct, but quite often it is the team leader that they turn to.

PN202

Yes. And I guess that the team leader as "go to person," wouldn't the team leader always have been the go to person in a lot of examples like that?---Not necessarily. Leave was quite often directed straight to the supervision. It's out of my control, or it was out of my control. Now it's directly you fill the form out, you monitor your team, who is going to be away, whereas before that was the group leader or supervision's responsibility.

**** DANNY MCDONALD XXN MR MEALLIN
PN203

Okay. Moving on to point 44 of your statement:

PN204

I am expected to induct and train new team members into the team and assess their on the job work performance.

PN205

I think that you sort of mentioned it as sort of being a very much on the go type of activity?---Yes.

PN206

Wouldn't training new team members always been a fundamental task of the team leader?---It has been. The assessment is something that wasn't my responsibility before, it was a trainer that actually looked after the assessment of the operator, and now I assess him, how capable he is, can he do it safely, can he do it in time, can he do it to a certain quality level?

PN207

Okay. Mr McDonald, I take it you don't actually have a copy of the 94 agreement in front of you?---Agreement, no.

PN208

I'm just wondering could I perhaps put one to you just to check a couple of points of your understanding?---Sure.

PN209

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, my associate will hand that to the witness.

PN210

MR MEALLIN: I'm sure you've seen this document before because it's been presented in the materials?---Yes.

PN211

Okay. If we look at the work what was then, as we've said, they would call synchronous work units back in those days?---Yes.

PN212

But we all know that means team leader. If you look at the listing of the work unit leader responsibilities, I think it's dot point number - well, dot point number 1 in fact?---Yes.

PN213

Inducts new members and provides job orientation training (mentor).

PN214

Now, that actually comes from the original 1994 agreement. So would you agree that that would have to have always been a fundamental role of the team leader?
---Mentor and assessment I think is, my understanding, is two different things. Mentor a person and assess a person, like I said, came down to a trainer, a trainer would assess a person. Now that's my responsibility. I assess a person, whether they can - if they're capable, can they do this?

**** DANNY MCDONALD XXN MR MEALLIN
PN215

But who would know the job better, you or the trainer?---Now I'd say I would as a team leader, yes. I mean, the role of the trainer is now team leaders are being trained as a trainer, so that part of the trainer before is gone.

PN216

But were trainers a dedicated person attached to a team or were they roving people who would service a number of teams?---I'm not exactly sure about that, I'm not exactly sure.

PN217

Okay. But the trainer, you're saying that the trainer actually used to do the assessment, and that's now the team leader's role?---Correct.

PN218

Okay. But if we look down this list of work unit leader responsibilities we can see that there's facilitate the work of the synchronous work unit, there's facilitate continuous improvement process, and probably most importantly in regard to training the sixth dot point, ensure the team members follow and maintain standardised work through training and instruction?---Correct.

PN219

With the inference being that it would be the unit leader's responsibility or the team leader's responsibility to do that. So if we look back then at this 94 list of responsibilities, what do you think has changed back from this original language?
---It's now a - also now it's a visual thing. We actually have a team board where we put our training up, so it's now a team focused thing to have your zone trained. Previously it was a collective line thing, can we get all our people trained? Where my job wasn't to maintain this training matrix. Now that's my responsibility, I look after that. I have to ensure that the guy can do it safely within time, he can do it quality. I mean, quality to me and safety, I don't know, we do monitor that, but is that our responsibility? I don't know if that comes down to us.

PN220

Well, my recollection was when we did an inspection to your work area you actually pointed out the team area board?---Correct.

PN221

And indeed most things, all the metrics were very clearly shown in visual format as in the standardised way through the GMS system?---Correct.

PN222

So doesn't that make your job easier, having these visual controls that, admittedly you have a responsibility to update?---Yes.

PN223

But they are there to make the team leader and the team's job easier than perhaps it was in a time where it wasn't as visual?---It's the time monitoring. Quite often you'll have to stay with a person depending on their abilities, how new they are into the organisation. It's time. It's time consuming sometimes. So I don't know if it's made things easier for the team leader.

**** DANNY MCDONALD XXN MR MEALLIN
PN224

Yes. But at the same time where is the increase in responsibility?---The increase is like I said, is time that I have to put in with a person. I have to be with them and monitor the rest of my zone, whereas before the trainer monitored that person.

PN225

So if we think of an eight hour shift and all the things that you're being asked to do as a team leader and compressing everything in, is what you're saying is you feel the increase in level of responsibility comes from having to jam all these things into the eight hour shift, whereas previously that might not have been such a critical thing?---That time spent with that person would otherwise be done on other things, so yes.

PN226

Okay. All right, moving on to point 53 in your statement about:

PN227

Speaking directly with suppliers on some issues and work with them to resolve issues arising from their products.

PN228

Now, I think you said that, I think SQA was it that would normally have done that in the past?---Correct.

PN229

So how often would this happen?---Well, I've had it happen a dozen times in the last six months or so, so it depends on issues that are at hand I guess. It does vary. Some things SQA will take hold of, they'll speak directly to the supplier. Some things actually need to be explained, some things that are difficult to explain to the supplier.

PN230

But who would normally initiate this? Would this nearly always come through SQA to say look, we have a supplier on site, would you be able to get involved to discuss with us?---It could come through our blue card system where the issue's raise, so we elevate it to the SQA department to contact the - they'll contact the supplier, the supplier will come in, they will look at how, you know, what the issue is, and then if need be talk to the team leader.

PN231

But who in the organisation actually has the ultimate responsibility in this liaison with the suppliers?---SQA I presume.

PN232

SQA. So what you'd be saying is that although you might actually physically might get to speak to these people from time to time, ultimately the flow of communication has to go back through SQA who obviously have the ultimate responsibility?---I don't have direct contact with the suppliers, no.

**** DANNY MCDONALD XXN MR MEALLIN
PN233

Okay. So is what you're saying is you're providing input into the process when asked?---Yes. Like I said, if the supplier is brought into some of our verification meetings or through our blue card system and SQA might bring them over to us to say okay, you know, this is such and such from whatever supplier, tell him your issue, explain to him the issue.

PN234

THE COMMISSIONER: Before you go on, Mr Meallin.

PN235

Mr McDonald, I've understood you've been asked, and I think you agreed with this proposition, that you provided input when asked with SQA and their liaison with the suppliers?---Yes.

PN236

But I had understood you to say a few minutes ago that your involvement as an initiator might arise through the blue card system, and you said that it would escalate to dealing with the suppliers. And my understanding of your evidence is that you acknowledged that you don't directly ring the supplier and say get over, I'd like to have a yarn with you. But the way you put it I think the transcript will show is that an issue is brought to notice through the blue card system?---Yes.

PN237

That's you as an initiator?---Yes.

PN238

Possibly someone on the line who comes to you and says there's a problem with this, or you do it in your general oversight role, you initiate the matter through the blue card system, there's then discussion between yourself and someone in quality, and they then make the call and may, not always, but may bring the supplier online so you can talk to them?---Correct, yes.

PN239

Thank you.

PN240

MR MEALLIN: And I suppose, just following on from that, in Ms Spencer's statement at 30 to 37 she describes the blue card system as being a new way of recording problems?---Mm.

PN241

Previously when problems were discovered they were recorded on a board by team leaders in line with responsibility of facilitating continuous improvement.

PN242

So again is this simply a way that enables you in a more effective way to provide input when required?---It's definitely more effective because it's direct contact. Some things get lost in the interpretation. Again, it takes me away from my team, it's time I have to spend away from running my zone. Sometimes it can be short term, sometimes it can be long term, yes.

**** DANNY MCDONALD XXN MR MEALLIN
PN243

But notwithstanding that time element the actual act of coming to you and asking for your input, and seemingly you're asked for your input quite a lot, is that an increase in the level of responsibility after all you're being asked?---It's previously something that wasn't done by me, it was previously done by SQA or a supervisor.

PN244

Okay. Point 57:

PN245

I think in scrap in the past we just used to put a suspect part on the table and it was followed up by dedicated non production employees who would look after any rework scrapped.

PN246

And in Ms Spencer's statement she's saying, but look, that's always been a team leader's responsibility and in fact indeed even team members would also perform that task. Do you disagree with that?---I do, yes. The system has changed. Previously it was we put the part to be scrapped, a dedicated person would come and analyse the scrap and decide whether it was our scrap or supplier's scrap or whatever. Now that's for us to decide, that's for the team leader to decide, was it our fault for this scrap, was it supplier related issue? Then we actually fill out a scrap analysis sheet which goes onto a basket on the floor to be taken away. So yes, I do believe that that level of work is elevated.

PN247

All right. Well, in point 56 you say:

PN248

We identify and tag assessment suspect parts and place them on the verification tables to be reviewed during our meetings.

PN249

?---Correct.

PN250

So admittedly you're there in part of that process, but who else is there reviewing these parts?---Well, depending on the meeting it could be our supervisor, it could be an area manager, it could be the plant manager, it could be quality, our supplier quality maintenance, our logistics group, depending if they're available they'll come to the meeting. From there where we've put our tagged material, for example, SQA might pick up the part and say okay, this is a supplier related issue, great, let's call the supplier in, discuss it. From there, once the meeting is closed, all the scrap's been looked at, then we'd analyse the scrap and release it. So yes, that is a supplier scrap part, let's put it on our scrap analysis sheet and remove it.

PN251

So you have a role in terms of the recording. But would there ever be a situation where the group of people involved would all turn to you as the team leader and say, well, your call, do we scrap or not?---Well, I think that is a closed case. We look at it and say we can't use this part, we have to scrap it, whether it be our fault or a supplier fault.

**** DANNY MCDONALD XXN MR MEALLIN
PN252

But it's not your decision alone?---To scrap a part, 99 per cent of the time, yes, it is.

PN253

But in conjunction with the other stakeholders that you've mentioned?---Correct.

PN254

Okay. Fifty nine, TPM in your statement:

PN255

I organise and perform the TPM, which is the total preventative maintenance for my zone, including such things as changing sockets and/or parts on some auto station and manual stations.

PN256

And I think you actually said there is that that is something that has come relatively recently delegated by the supervisors to you. So when did this actually happen?---Look, I said previously about five years ago.

PN257

So again it's all around about the same time?---A very similar thing, yes.

PN258

The 02 period. And I think you also mentioned that the plant area manager was involved in that as well. So in terms of TPM, I'm just thinking, again, wouldn't you have always seen the TPM as being a fundamental part of the team leader's role?---TPM, I mean, the preventative maintenance side of things was always conducted by maintenance. They have a pm card created, they'd go and maintain the machine. It's actually passed to us now that we change bits and pieces on the machine, like I said before, touch the part.

PN259

Okay. All right, moving to point 79:

PN260

Something that we never used to do was have computers to check communications from manufacturing engineering, group leaders, fellow team leaders, SQA and managers through emails.

PN261

And I note that in Ms Spencer's statement she's saying that team leaders are not required to have email accounts. So did you request to have email yourself?---My area manager requested that I have email.

PN262

And what's the benefits, what do you see as the benefits of having email, or it's not benefits, the downside of having email?---The downside is I have to get there to look at them and reply to them. The positive I guess is direct information coming from that person, although sometimes can be, you know, my interpretation instead of asking the question backwards and forwards sometimes, the communication can be a bit difficult I guess.

**** DANNY MCDONALD XXN MR MEALLIN
PN263

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr McDonald, I discovered the trick with emails is not to give anyone your email address, then you won't get very many?---I'll write that down.

PN264

Because you can still sort of sniff around at what others are doing.

PN265

MR MEALLIN: So given that virtually nothing travels in hard copy any more by way of internal memorandum, it would make your job easier surely to have email?---Like I said, yes and no. I mean, it's time away, I've got to get time away to answer it. If I've got absenteeism or something like that I've actually got to do that during my breaks.

PN266

But has having email, apart from the time which I know you've just said, has that increased the level of responsibility of the team leader just simply adding the function of email?---I'm responsible for whatever is in that information. If I have to pass that information on I've got to get the information and pass it on. Previously it might have been handed to me, here you go, take this and pass it around, or something like that.

PN267

But prior to email how would you have passed that same information on?---Hard copy.

PN268

So in effect it's really we're talking about just a difference in medium here, electronic versus hard copy. It still would have been your function to ensure that that communication would - - -?---I wouldn't have to reply to a hard copy quite often. Some emails are asking what's your response or what's your intention, or things like that, so I have to give a response.

PN269

THE COMMISSIONER: Who are those people who are asking for responses from you, Mr McDonald?---Supervisors, quality, other team leaders, various I guess, maintenance.

PN270

Would you be able to print off examples of supervisors and the quality department asking your views about something?---I was just going through my emails yesterday actually. I had 54 unanswered emails and I deleted most of them because they were out of date, because I just haven't had a chance to get to them, so I don't know. Possibly in the future, yes.

PN271

MR MEALLIN: Okay. Moving on to point 88 of your statement:

**** DANNY MCDONALD XXN MR MEALLIN
PN272

Team leaders are expected to work on the line when there are labour shortages of a short term covering, say sick leave, for a day, or long term, say like planned leave, annual leave, long service leave, and still continue with their normal duties.

PN273

And I would have thought that covering on the line would have been again a fundamental task that team leaders would have always done?---Short term, yes, toilet breaks, a sickie, yes. But when you're talking long service where some can be months at a time, quite often the team leaders are asked to cover for that.

PN274

So this is not a new task per se, it's more coming back to what you say but it puts conflicting demands on your time?---Definitely.

PN275

Not that it's a new responsibility that's come in recent years?---No, it wouldn't be in recent years.

PN276

Okay. All right, yes. Under 90 reference is made in your statement to a new sheet?---Yes.

PN277

That requires you to say to be more accountable for spelling out when a quality issue is picked up at the end of a line:

PN278

The team leader is then to stipulate when they respond, date and time, why the issue occurred and what will they do to stop it happening again.

PN279

Again isn't that really just an improved means by which you can get the critical information that you have inputted so that it can then be passed on to those who can act on it?---Yes. The accountability side of it, the time, the date you responded to the incident. I mean, the other side of that sheet is when the incident actually occurred, the time and date. So I'd say that's pretty much looked at, why did it take two weeks to respond to this, or why wasn't it responded to in the first 15 minutes or something? So it's added pressure for me to get back to my zone and pass the information on.

PN280

But wouldn't prompt response to providing that information always be the responsibility of the team leader?---Prompt response is great, yes, of course we all want it, but it's added pressure on us to do that, where we never had that responsibility before. The supervisor would come and see you, say hey look, there's an issue here, let's do this, let's put this in place. Now it's okay, we've identified the issue, now we have to solve it, what is it, how are we going to stop it again?

**** DANNY MCDONALD XXN MR MEALLIN
PN281

Okay. And again, 91 in your statement:

PN282

There is a much bigger responsibility placed on team leaders than in the past.

PN283

And I think from Mr Georgiou's questioning you gave a few examples of that, but one of which you gave was that you feel that you're accountable for the people or accountable for your team. How would that have changed from when originally the teams were formed back in the early nineties?---I think the amount of work that's now delegated to us, for example the forms, the TPM sheets, it's time away from your team now. You're not actually - what's the word - you're not on the spot, you know, for the people now, you're more taken away from them. So I think sometimes they may feel like they're on their own a bit. We're chasing paper round half the day where we should be monitoring them and looking after them and giving them what they need, if they want to go to the toilet, if they want to do these things, you know, if they have issues, how do we respond to them?

PN284

But again isn't that coming back to conflicting demands on your time, being time wise as opposed to having taken on an increased level of responsibility?---Look, like I said, it still takes me away from my time, you know, from my group. I can't put the time in that I used to have and work together as a team, I suppose is the key element there, where now it's I'll get to you once I finish my audit, or can you hang five while I answer an email, or something like that.

PN285

And I think you also made mention of budget and responsible for the budget through your visual controls of the team board. But when you say being responsible, you are responsible just for the inputting and the tracking of that budget, not actually the budget itself, are you?---As I said, my zone varies from other zones. I don't actually have a budget as it is. Some other team leaders do. So yes, I'm not real familiar with that.

PN286

And you would agree that anything to do with budget would be at either supervisor or area manager level in the organisation?---I would assume that.

PN287

All right. Look, I'll just ask you one last question which relates back to just 57 in regards to the scrap. My understanding is that the scrap sheets are actually signed off by the supervisors, not the team leaders. Is that true or false?---It should be, but not all the time. Quite often the supervisor will ask you can you sign it off, so it does get delegated back to the team leader occasionally.

**** DANNY MCDONALD XXN MR MEALLIN
PN288

But in terms of if we were to follow the proper GM process, and that's no doubt carefully documented in a manual, would you agree that that would state that that actually is a supervisor's role to sign off that?---It is actually stated on the sheet that a supervisor is to sign it, it says it down the bottom.

PN289

Okay, Mr McDonald, thank you. No further questions, Commissioner.

PN290

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Georgiou, you have no further questions?

PN291

MR GEORGIOU: No questions, Commissioner.

PN292

THE COMMISSIONER: All right, good. Thank you for your evidence, Mr McDonald, you can step down.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.30AM]

PN293

THE COMMISSIONER: We're going to have a short adjournment. We'll adjourn now for 10 minutes.

<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.31AM]
<RESUMED [11.50AM]

PN294

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Georgiou?

PN295

MR GEORGIOU: Commissioner, I'd like to call Mr Zachary Christofas please.

PN296

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

<ZACHARY CHRISTOFAS, SWORN [11.51AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GEORGIOU

PN297

MR GEORGIOU: Mr Christofas, could you for the record give your full name and address please?---Zachary Christofas (address supplied).

PN298

And have you prepared a witness statement for these proceedings, Mr Christofas?
---Yes, I have.

PN299

Do you believe the contents of that statement to be true and correct?---Yes, I do.

PN300

Commissioner, if I could have that marked.

EXHIBIT #G3 STATEMENT OF ZACHARY CHRISTOFAS

PN301

MR GEORGIOU: Mr Christofas, you are familiar with the work unit leader responsibilities in the documentation arising out of a memorandum of understanding?---Yes.

PN302

Do you have a copy of that?---Yes, I do.

PN303

Just in case you're asked questions on it. Have you also read the statement of Ms Spencer for these proceedings?---Yes, I have.

PN304

Thank you. She takes some issue with some of your statement so I'll ask you some questions with regard to that. In your paragraph 8:

PN305

When I first started as the team leader I used to just write data in my hand. Now I have to take time off the line using the computer.

PN306

Is this just an old task done in a different way, or has it a different dimension to it?---A bit of both. It is an old task done in a different way which does add a new dimension because we have to be away from our team.

PN307

What else, anything else to it?---Well, we have to ensure that the data is put in electronically correctly. If it's not we're held accountable for it.

PN308

Who used to do that?---Usually that used to be the supervisor.

PN309

Thank you. Paragraph 11 of your statement:

PN310

With regard to training of operators that used to be done by more senior employees in the past.

**** ZACHARY CHRISTOFAS XN MR GEORGIOU
PN311

Were there dedicated people who did this in the past?---Yes, there were.

PN312

And who were they?---Usually they were senior operators who had experience on almost all the assembly line I believe.

PN313

Did team leaders perform any training in the past?---Usually as a mentor, as a guide, just ensuring that they're doing the correct way. That was about it.

PN314

With regard to standard operating sheets, who used to fill in this data in the past?
---I believe it was part of engineering.

PN315

You are required as part of this process to do auditing. Have you always been accountable for auditing?---No, not always.

PN316

When did this come into play?---Close to four years now, ever since we've come to the new plant, plant 18.

PN317

So there was no requirement for team leaders to audit in the past?---No.

PN318

Twenty four of your statement:

PN319

I have to perform start up meetings daily.

PN320

What's new about that? Surely you always had to perform start up meetings?
---What's new, sorry?

PN321

Have you always had to perform start up meetings?---Not always, no.

PN322

Who used to do that?---That again is something new that's come in with induction plant 18, where the team leaders have a five minute start up meeting which includes many items. It could be safety issues, it could be production problems that we have. A lot of the communication is held in those five minute meetings where we read from sheets produced by a supervisor and we have to read them out to the team leaders as part of the communication process.

PN323

I'll take you to paragraph 27 with regard to the near miss forms. Is it everyone's responsibility to fill in a near miss form?---Yes.

PN324

Where the incident occurs obviously?---Everyone is encouraged to fill them out, but most usually even operators will come to the team leader to have them filled out. We encourage safety through all the employees.

**** ZACHARY CHRISTOFAS XN MR GEORGIOU
PN325

Who used to perform this function?---That used to be supervisors.

PN326

The KPI charts as they were called used to be managed by supervisors, and then you are required to put the data on the board. Was that always the responsibility of a team leader?---No, not always.

PN327

Ms Spencer claims it was always your job and it's just more structured. Do you agree with that statement?---The collection of data could have been at some point part of the team leader's job, but the actual structuring of the KPI chart and place them on an SPQRC board, that was never part of our job.

PN328

Whose job was it?---That used to be the supervisor's role.

PN329

Thank you. If it used to be the supervisor's job, who asked you to do it?---That came down from our management team, our supervisors, area manager.

PN330

Do you feel you're accountable for that data?---Yes, absolutely.

PN331

Do you seek advice with regard to the data and the entry?---Quite frequently.

PN332

Who from?---From our supervisor.

PN333

You say in paragraph 32 you:

PN334

Monitor costs, regulate the usage of consumables and am responsible for minimising waste.

PN335

Was that always a function performed by leading hands?---Not to my knowledge, no. That's a new responsibility that has come in.

PN336

When do you think it came in?---Just recently. It would have been close to four years ago.

PN337

You were asked in paragraph 33, you say you were asked to fill out exception reports and submit these to group leaders, which is not part of your responsibilities. Who asked you to do that sort of work?---Our supervisors.

PN338

The company says it's the supervisor's job. Why do you do it?---Because we're asked to do it.

**** ZACHARY CHRISTOFAS XN MR GEORGIOU
PN339

Forty three, you've been trained, and we go to the issue of training. Were you asked to undertake additional training, Certificate IV training and assessing?
---Yes.

PN340

Who asked you?---At the time it was the area manager.

PN341

What about Steps? Firstly explain to the Commission what Steps are?---Steps I think is, I'm not sure of the exact words, what they mean.

PN342

What it involves?---Training in small groups is the actual - what it entails.

PN343

Who asked you to undertake this training?---My supervisor at the time.

PN344

Thank you. You didn't initiate this training off your own, you were asked by someone in the company to undertake this training?---Correct.

PN345

Did Holden send you to any training that was sponsored by them? Who conducted the training is probably a better way?---From what I remember some of them were from the Box Hill Institute.

PN346

Just near home?---No. I had to come to work to do it.

PN347

So they conducted the training?---Correct, within Holden.

PN348

THE COMMISSIONER: No early marks, Mr Georgiou.

PN349

MR GEORGIOU: Sorry?

PN350

THE COMMISSIONER: They weren't allowed to go home at the end of it.

PN351

MR GEORGIOU: In paragraph 47:

PN352

It is expected that I present issues that affect my team at the weekly zone verification meetings.

PN353

Has this always been the role of the team leader?---The actual concept of a verification board, no, it's not been.

PN354

Weekly zone verification meetings?---Correct.

**** ZACHARY CHRISTOFAS XN MR GEORGIOU
PN355

They always occurred?---No. That's something new that's been introduced just four years ago.

PN356

Thank you. The scrap analysis sheets and the identification of scrap, the tagging of scrap, has that been a function of the team leader for a long time?---The analysis of the scrap, no.

PN357

Who used to do that?---There was a dedicated person who would come and collect the scrap. The actual analysis of it I believe it to be the supervisor. As team leaders we would - a suspect part, it was always a suspect part to us, never scrap, it would be placed on a table and from there it would be taken over by the supervisor.

PN358

With regard to TPM, total preventative maintenance, have you undertaken more of that role?---More of that role?

PN359

Who used to perform all of the total preventative maintenance tasks in the past?
---Well, as the name implies, it was maintenance of all groups.

PN360

You say it involves maintaining machinery - this is in paragraph 60 - in a hands on role. How is this bigger than the job that you had in the past?---In the past the only maintenance we did, the only TPM that we did was monitor and report, whereas now we actually have to go in there and do physical work as well.

PN361

In paragraph 85 you talk about - sorry, I'll ask a few more questions first. In your team do you have a large number of team members who have English as a second language?---It used to be larger. Yes, I still have someone who does have English as a second language.

PN362

Do you assist them in their working environment with regard to form filling or anything like that?---Absolutely. Also in the communication meetings I must have a second meeting in the actual language, Greek in this case.

PN363

Why don't you just simply refer to the company's diversity policy which covers this issue, doesn't it?---Yes, it does, but it also saves time on my behalf.

PN364

I've got no other questions, Commissioner.

**** ZACHARY CHRISTOFAS XN MR GEORGIOU
PN365

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Yes, Mr Meallin?

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEALLIN [12.05PM]

PN366

MR MEALLIN: Mr Christofas, in your statement it says you started work in March 97 as a line production operator and you held that position for a year?
---Correct.

PN367

And you became a team leader in early 1999?---Early, it could be mid to late, around that time.

PN368

Okay. So you've had roughly eight years experience as a team leader?---Roughly.

PN369

You went straight in as a team leader, you weren't a leading hand under the pre-existing system before that?---No, a team leader.

PN370

Okay. All right, point 8, you say:

PN371

When I first started as a team leader I used to just write data in my hand, but now I have to take time off using the computer.

PN372

?---Yes.

PN373

And I think you refer to that as the old cards being done in a different way. By different do you infer that that is an increase in the level of responsibility, how you used to do it?---Well, I believe so, because now that we do it electronically it's a lot more accessible to everyone, and if I do make a mistake no one is there to pick it up.

PN374

But how does that differ from before? Because you could have made a mistake with providing your information before, before you had a computer?---Correct. That information would be given to the supervisor and he would distribute it accordingly.

PN375

But isn't this information being passed on to people such as your supervisor just simply through an electronic means as opposed to a paper based or hard copy medium?---Yes, but not just the supervisor any more.

PN376

Okay. But would you say though in line with Ms Spencer's statement that really at the end of the day it's just a different method of performing the same task?
---Which increases the responsibility, yes.

**** ZACHARY CHRISTOFAS XXN MR MEALLIN
PN377

But by responsibility I think you said that it's time, it takes you away from the team, and I think your other comment was the need to input correctly?---Correct.

PN378

But you would still maintain though that there's more of an onus to input correctly through an electronic medium than it would, say, through a hard copy medium?
---More of an onus?

PN379

Well, is there a more onerous responsibility on you to provide your inputted data through email for example or through an electronic spreadsheet or system as opposed to what you would have done years ago where it would have been perhaps on a paper based memorandum?---Yes.

PN380

And you put that down to the fact that it's the nature of the electronic medium that causes that. Okay. Point 12 in your statement:

PN381

It is now a requirement of the position that I maintain and update the standardised operating sheets.

PN382

How long have you been doing the SOS sheets for?---Close to eight years now.

PN383

So since you became a team leader?---Yes.

PN384

And in that time has there been a perceived difference in the level of responsibility from doing those sheets?---Yes.

PN385

So what's changed?---At first it was - well, when I first started I actually translated some SOS sheets from a previous team leader who had English as a second language and so were not entirely accurate when they were being read, so I had to go back and redo them. But now as we're required to follow PCP for the SOS and must include things like time management within the SOS as well as quality checks within the SOS. All that stuff wasn't there before.

PN386

Okay. But has the SOS system made your job more efficient as a result of it being introduced?---Yes, it has.

PN387

And has it made it easier because you're following a more standardised process in terms of capturing this information?---In terms of capturing the information, yes.

PN388

Okay. All right, let me take you to point 24 of your statement where you say:

**** ZACHARY CHRISTOFAS XXN MR MEALLIN
PN389

I have to perform start up meetings daily for my team members following the SPQRC formula.

PN390

Which is the standard metrics as listed there. Why do you think that doing the start up meetings creates a greater burden of responsibility on your role as a team leader?---Occasionally the information requires, or doesn't require that - the employees will have some question as to the information that's been relayed, and I will have to answer that question.

PN391

Well, if you can't answer them who would you ask?---I would have to relay that information and the question to a supervisor.

PN392

Okay. Now, if we go back to when you first became a team leader back some time in 1999, from the very first time you became a team leader you would have run team meetings?---No.

PN393

When did you start getting involved in facilitating team meetings?---When we came to plant 18, which would have been close to four years ago.

PN394

Okay. So did you sort of - did that surprise you that that was part of the team leader's role, that it would be involved in facilitating team meetings when you were asked to do it?---It did at first, yes.

PN395

And why is that, because you - why is that?---That job was always done by a supervisor.

PN396

So your experience always was that the supervisor would facilitate the team meetings. And while the supervisor was facilitating the team meetings what would the team leader be doing, just participating like the other team members?
---Correct.

PN397

Okay. Do you have a copy of the 1994 Holden Company Work Organisation Agreement in front of you?---Correct.

PN398

Okay. On page 208 as marked in this edition if you look at the work unit leader responsibilities, the third last dot point says "Schedules and facilitates meetings"?
---Yes.

PN399

So would you agree that that was always envisaged at least as being a fundamental feature of the team leader even though perhaps in your example you may not have been doing it?---It was envisioned.

**** ZACHARY CHRISTOFAS XXN MR MEALLIN
PN400

But you agree that it appears in the 94 agreement as clearly marked?---Yes.

PN401

Under team leader responsibilities, or then as called unit leader responsibilities. The meetings that you are now involved in, are they more frequent than they were in the past?---Every morning.

PN402

Okay. When you first went across and started doing them, I think you said four or five years ago, were you also doing them every morning back then or at a lesser frequency?---Yes.

PN403

Okay. I'll draw your attention now to clause 27 of your statement about the near miss forms, and you said that the supervisor used to do those forms?---I believe so, yes.

PN404

However, in Ms Spencer's statement she says that, well, really all employees are encouraged to fill out the near miss forms and this certainly is not solely a team leader's task. So would you agree with that statement?---As far as it's being part of safety, yes, it is everyone's responsibility. I have yet to see an employee fill out a near miss form. It's always been given to the team leader responsible for that area.

PN405

So what would typically happen in that case? Would the team member who had the near miss seek advice from you on how they should fill out the form?---They would come to me and say Zach, we need to fill out a near miss report, this is what I want you to put on it.

PN406

But there would be nothing stopping you from giving it to the team member and say look, I've sort of noticed this just before, would you fill this form out, and asking them to do it?---Nothing's stopping me from doing that, no.

PN407

No. Are there other people that could be asked, that could assist with filling out a near miss form?---Yes, I'm quite sure there would be.

PN408

And typically who else could be asked?---Typically anyone can.

PN409

Okay. All right. Points 28 and 29 in your statement refer to the updating of the team boards with the metrics and which have been referred to in 29 as the KPI charts, as they were called, used to be managed by supervisors and they put them on the board. So how long have you been actually as a team leader updating the SPQRC metrics on the board?---The last four years since we've come to plant 18.

**** ZACHARY CHRISTOFAS XXN MR MEALLIN
PN410

But you're saying you hadn't done that previously as a team leader in the other plant?---No, I have not.

PN411

Right. To your knowledge do you know if they now do that same system in the plant that you came from?---Plant 10, I have no idea, I haven't been to plant 10 for a long time.

PN412

Do you believe that that is a fundamental task that the team leader should be performing, updating those charts and boards?---Do I believe whether I should be doing this?

PN413

Well, do you believe it's a fundamental part of the team leader's role to be doing that task, which in your case is, do you believe you should be doing it in your role as a team leader?---Yes.

PN414

And why do you believe that to be the case?---It allows the team to work more efficiently.

PN415

And would you say then that you are probably the best placed person in the team to facilitate and coordinate that task?---Yes.

PN416

And why is that? Is it because you're closest to the team and the data that's being generated out of that team?---Correct.

PN417

And then by placing it on the board I take it your supervisor or area manager would come and look at those boards and be able to see exactly in a standardised format how the team is going in terms of a whole range of metrics?---Correct.

PN418

Which are standardised, as you've mentioned in 26. At 31 you say that:

PN419

The real change now is that I am responsible for costs.

PN420

But then in 32 you then go on to say:

PN421

I monitor costs, regulate usage of consumables and responsible for minimising waste.

PN422

So can you explain the distinction for me between 31 and 32 in your statement where on one hand you say you're responsible for costs, but then on the other hand you're describing how you actually monitor the costs?---Costs is very broad. There are costs. As a team leader I can only monitor. And there are other costs which I have been required to actually be responsible for. An example I can give is glove usage, I am directly responsible for the amount of gloves given to each team member during the day. Whereas socket changes, that part of the machinery cost I have no control over, I can only monitor that.

**** ZACHARY CHRISTOFAS XXN MR MEALLIN
PN423

Well, let's take gloves as an example, which obviously is a consumable, it will be quite a regular item that you'd have to deal with on a day to day basis. What is it on the board that let's you know whether you're tracking the target or not in terms of how many pairs of gloves are being issued and used?---The amount of gloves that we've ordered during the week.

PN424

But how do you know whether you're ahead of the game or behind the game in terms of what's expected in terms of what would be an accepted level of usage?
---A budget has been given to us by a supervisor saying that we have this amount of gloves that we require which is too many, can we reduce them? And we found a way to reduce them.

PN425

But wouldn't your key responsibility to ensure that the accurate data that shows the usage appears in the right place on the chart, on the right chart on the board in regards to the consumable?---Sorry?

PN426

Well, taking the gloves again as an example, you would need to record somewhere how many pairs had been issued in that given period?---Yes.

PN427

Say a week. So therefore clearly it would be your responsible if 42 pairs had been issued that that's the figure that gets recorded on the chart, on the right chart?
---Yes.

PN428

Now, whether 42 is ahead of target or below target, where do you come in on that in terms of being responsible for it? After all you've issued them and you've recorded them, but at the end of the day if it's not tracking to expectation who actually carries the can for that?---We become responsible when we're asked to minimise that amount.

PN429

Can you give an example? How would you go about doing that?---Yes. Inspect the gloves if an operator asks for a second pair during the day.

PN430

And then what would you do, you'd say no, the pair you've already got is still adequate for another day or two?---Correct.

PN431

Okay. So in terms of the supervisor's responsibility in all this, what would they be doing in terms of watching how the level of consumables are going?---I believe they would just say to us whether it's too much or too little.

**** ZACHARY CHRISTOFAS XXN MR MEALLIN
PN432

Okay. So would they come and discuss that with you as the team leader and presumably explore ways on how that might be managed in future?---Yes.

PN433

All right, moving on to 33 in your statement:

PN434

As a team leader I have to fill out exception reports and submit these to group leaders, which is the supervisor, which was not part of my responsibilities before.

PN435

So at what point did you start filling out the exception reports?---When I came to plant 18.

PN436

Okay, which was about four years ago?---Yes.

PN437

And in terms of these exception reports where do you see the increased level of responsibility on yourself compared to when you didn't have to fill them out?
---They are a legal document.

PN438

Okay. So what are you saying, it's the accuracy of the data that you have to input onto them is where the responsibility lies?---Correct.

PN439

Or previously as a team leader in the other plant where, as you point out, you didn't have to fill them out, how did you convey that same information to the supervisor in regards to whether someone was - where they should be or not at the work station in the team?---Just verbal communication.

PN440

So the exception report has basically has formalised that conveyance of information which ultimately still has to end up back with the supervisor for them to consider?---Yes.

PN441

So in terms of the responsibility on you in terms of the accuracy of that data, why would it be that documenting it on a sheet would be any more onerous than having to rely it verbally or by other communication means?---If a mistake is made I am held accountable.

PN442

But couldn't you have still made a mistake under the other system where you were conveying it verbally? Like, it may have been you said, well, look, we're five people down this morning, when you may have in fact been six? How would that be different to marking the wrong number on a sheet, on an exception report?
---It's not just people away on the exception report, it's also early starts, working through your lunchtime breaks and various other reasons that are in there, whether a person is on WorkCover or is just sick, absent.

**** ZACHARY CHRISTOFAS XXN MR MEALLIN
PN443

But do you agree that at the end of the day the supervisor needs to know who was there and who isn't at any given time, and for that they do rely on the team leader to provide that information to them?---Yes.

PN444

And that has always been the case to your knowledge?---Yes.

PN445

Okay. All right, clause 33 which was the Steps Program, training small groups. Sorry, 43, my apologies, the Steps Program, which I think you said was actually a training course run on site but facilitated through the Box Hill Institute of TAFE. That I understand was what training you as the team leader to be more effective in your role to be able to do your job better?---Correct.

PN446

Given that that was assistance being provided to you for you to do your job better, are you saying that an increase in the level of responsibility has arisen from having been provided that training?---Yes, it has.

PN447

And can you describe why you see that as the case?---Yes. When an issue arises on the production line I am held accountable for the fact that an operator cannot do a certain process correctly, and most usually the supervisor will say, well, you're the team leader, you should train him better.

PN448

But as that very first point of contact with your team that always would have been your responsibility as a team leader would it not?---In a mentor sort of way, yes.

PN449

And the Steps Program I understand was helping you to be more effective in that very function as a team leader. So wouldn't it be making you more effective, or in effect making your job easier?---Making me more effective is making me more accountable, yes.

PN450

But why is it that it makes you more accountable if you're being given extra assistance and training in being able to perform one of your core functions?---If we get it wrong.

PN451

But couldn't it be argued that without that training probably there'd be a greater propensity that you could get it wrong? This is actually helping you to do your job better?---Yes. Without that training I wouldn't have the - I would not be expected to get it right.

PN452

But is that necessarily the case? Because if you, as the first point of contact as the team leader with your team, surely it would be expected that you were able to get that sort of thing right by training and mentoring your team members?---Sorry, what was the question.

**** ZACHARY CHRISTOFAS XXN MR MEALLIN
PN453

Well, let me put it another way. Are you saying that having had the training now more is expected of you than what was expected before?---Yes.

PN454

Okay. But having said that, are you saying that what you've been trained in is now something over and above what you were expected to do before?---Yes.

PN455

Okay. We'll go to point 52 now:

PN456

We're expected to maintenance and update the verification board for our team and monitor the top five issues.

PN457

What's so special about that in terms of being a team leader, what makes that different to what you've done in the past?---Whenever attended verification board meetings, it's something new that's come out since we've been to plant 18.

PN458

Okay. But given, if you go back to the 1994 list of responsibilities on page as marked 208, isn't there a whole range of points here that directly relate to that being a key part of the function? Like, for example, wouldn't that fall into the domain of facilitating the work of the work unit and facilitating the continuous improvement process?---Yes.

PN459

All right. I think it was on point 54, I think it mentioned again on 57 where you mentioned about scrap, an analysis of the scrap, and in fact 57 says:

PN460

I now have to fill out scrap analysis sheets which requires identify what is scrap and where it came from.

PN461

So can you just explain there why is that an increased level of responsibility compared to previously?---It was never our responsibility to separate scrap from - and where it come from. It was always put on the table and left for others to separate into appropriate bins.

PN462

Well, in Ms Spencer's statement she actually says that:

PN463

Responsibility for identifying and tagging suspect parts and filling in scrap analysis sheets crosses over the team member, team leader and supervisor roles, and in fact in the past it was done by the leading hands.

PN464

Which of course was the forerunner to the team leader. So does that surprise you that that was in fact previously a task that the leading hand was involved in?
---Certainly.

**** ZACHARY CHRISTOFAS XXN MR MEALLIN
PN465

Well, would you disagree then with Ms Spencer's statement that this whole function is not the domain of the team leader specifically, but actually is a joint effort that involves team members, team leader and the supervisor and others?
---Now or previously?

PN466

Well, where do you see the difference? What are you saying happens now?
---Now we have to be able to root cause where this scrap come from.

PN467

But are you doing that in isolation or are you doing that in conjunction with others?---Occasionally in conjunction with others, yes.

PN468

Well, when would there be a situation where you'd be doing it in isolation?
---When I'm definitely 100 per cent sure that I don't need to have the advice of others.

PN469

But it's not your ultimate responsibility though is it?---What isn't, sorry?

PN470

Well, in terms of deciding that, well, is it scrapped or is it not scrapped. Ultimately is that your responsibility or is that someone else's?---Again that would depend on what scrap we are talking about.

PN471

Well, what's your understanding of the role of a supervisor or a group leader in terms of ultimately signing off scrap?---That they sign the scrap sheet before it gets taken away.

PN472

So is that to say then that ultimately it would be the supervisor and not the team leader when it comes down to that issue?---Yes.

PN473

Okay. On point 59 you've made mention of the total preventative maintenance, TPM.

PN474

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Meallin, just before you go off that point.

PN475

Mr Christofas, have you got your statement there?---Yes.

PN476

Can you have a look please at paragraphs 54 and 55, your evidence is that you identify and tag all suspect parts, and the verification tables, do you see that, you say that at 54?---Yes.

**** ZACHARY CHRISTOFAS XXN MR MEALLIN
PN477

And then you go on:

PN478

These parts are to be reviewed during our meetings.

PN479

Now, who is present at those meetings you're referring to there?---Those meetings are in the verification board meetings that we have, and we have supervisors, we have Q&A suppliers if they need to be there.

PN480

Are they regularly in attendance, those quality assurance people?---Yes.

PN481

All right. Then you go on to say at 55:

PN482

Within the process of tagging we have to separate items according to who is responsible for a particular defect.

PN483

Now, is that a new function, particularising who or what area was responsible for it?---Yes.

PN484

And how long has that been a responsibility of yours?---Ever since we've started plant 18, about four years ago.

PN485

All right, thank you. Yes, Mr Meallin?

PN486

MR MEALLIN: Mr Christofas, my understanding is that the team leader and even the leading hands in the role before them were always responsible for actually tagging these suspect parts. So is that your understanding or not?---Well, you've brought it to my attention now, yes, but when I originally started as team leader we did have just the scrap table and it was put up there.

PN487

All right, 85 in your statement:

PN488

And a lot of our team members have English as a second language or very poor English language skills so that communication becomes extremely important and a difficult task to achieve if the team leader is not sensitive to his environment.

PN489

Can you just explain exactly what you mean as being sensitive to the environment, what are you exactly saying there? Can you give an example of that?---Okay. In my particular case, Greek being the second language that I speak, there's certain areas where Greeks are a bit sensitive. Well, actually no, sorry, they're not - sorry. Can you ask the question again please?

**** ZACHARY CHRISTOFAS XXN MR MEALLIN
PN490

In terms of , well, as it says here:

PN491

It's a difficult task if the team leader is not sensitive to the environment.

PN492

So what is it that creates the difficulty, and giving an example of what would be a particular difficulty of not being able to be aware of that and manage that type of sensitivity?---The sensitive environment being the team, which includes people of different races, different belief systems.

PN493

Well, your inference there is that if it's not managed sensitively there would be some form of consequences, so what are the consequences of not managing it sensibly?---Arguments. Arguments within a team.

PN494

And if there are arguments within a team who would normally be responsible for restoring harmony?---The first point of call would be myself.

PN495

Then who would be the second point of call?---My supervisor.

PN496

And typically in your experience would most of these altercations be resolved at that level?---Yes.

PN497

And which level, that being typically more with you as being the team leader, or more typically with you making reference to the supervisor?---Personally in my case I have resolved issues because I was able to speak Greek.

PN498

Well, what about if it was a language that wasn't Greek? The last time I checked I think we had 62 different nationalities working in the engine operations area. So wouldn't it be just as likely or more likely that it would be a non English speaking background person with a different language?---Yes. In that particular case we'd go to my supervisor.

PN499

So you wouldn't feel that you had to take sole responsibility for those situations, you would know that the supervisor would be who you would go to, who would then assume the overall responsibility?---Yes.

PN500

And if it was, I suppose, it blew into a serious matter I would suspect that what the supervisor would then even go higher up and refer to the area manager?---I believe so.

**** ZACHARY CHRISTOFAS XXN MR MEALLIN
PN501

Or possibly even involve human resources?---No.

PN502

Okay. Just on that though, since you started back in 1999 do you think that the work area has increased with the numbers of non English speaking background people or has decreased?---In my particular zone it's decreased.

PN503

Well, if it's decreased then would it then follow that if you perceive that that is creating more of a responsibility on you, that then your level of responsibility would have decreased?---No, because it's still there.

PN504

But just not in as great a quantity?---Correct.

PN505

And just to finish up I'll take you back to number 59, because I got distracted earlier, where it says:

PN506

I organise and perform TPM, total preventative maintenance for my zone including things such as changing sockets and/or parts and some auto station and manual stations.

PN507

In that statement are you inferring that there is an increased level of responsibility compared to what you used to do with TPM in the past?---Yes, there is.

PN508

And what is that increased level of responsibility?---In the past TPM was purely a monitor and report, whereas it's currently monitor, report and also doing most of the work, well, we believe most of the work, but hands on.

PN509

But the work you would be performing though would be strictly in accordance with the standard operating procedures, standardised procedures?---Yes.

PN510

And if that wasn't strictly in accordance with standardised procedures who would you refer to?---Maintenance corporate.

PN511

Okay. All right, well, thanks Mr Christofas. No further questions, Commissioner.

PN512

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Georgiou?

PN513

MR GEORGIOU: No questions, Commissioner.

**** ZACHARY CHRISTOFAS XXN MR MEALLIN
PN514

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Christofas, thank you for your evidence, you can step down.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.39PM]

PN515

MR GEORGIOU: Commissioner, if I could call Ms Chris Grech.

PN516

THE COMMISSIONER: thank you.

<CHRISTOPHER GRECH, SWORN [12.40PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GEORGIOU

PN517

MR GEORGIOU: For the record, Mr Grech, could you give your name and address please?---Christopher Grech (address supplied).

PN518

Mr Grech, have you prepared a witness statement for these proceedings?---Yes, I have.

PN519

To your belief is that statement true and correct?---Yes, I do.

PN520

Commissioner, if we could have that marked?

EXHIBIT #G4 STATEMENT OF CHRISTOPHER GRECH

PN521

MR GEORGIOU: Mr Grech, are you familiar with the work unit leader responsibilities document?---Yes, I am.

PN522

Do you believe that that document adequately reflects the roles and responsibilities of team leaders today?---No.

PN523

Have you read the statement of Ms Spencer for these proceedings?---Yes, I have.

PN524

She says with regard to your paragraph 9:

PN525

I'm expected to use my personal mobile phone to contact my group leader and team members and for them to contact me.

PN526

Why don't you use the radio system provided by the company as Ms Spencer suggests?---Well, two reasons. The first, I was asked by my supervisor and area manager if they could have my mobile phone number, and in turn to contact them by mobile phone. In my particular area, number 2, my particular area, it's very noisy, I wear ear plugs, and the radio is under a sorting conveyor so when you talk on it you can't be heard, and basically you can't hear it ring. So it's very easy for me to use my mobile or for them to contact me on my mobile because it vibrates in my pocket near my chest, and I can answer that phone call.

PN527

With regard to your paragraph 14, it's now your responsibility to organise uniform and safety issue orders which is to be done by group leaders. Why do you do this task?---Well, I have a team of eight people currently and I'm responsible for basically anything that they need in regards to doing their job as safely as they can, so I'm responsible for ordering their uniforms, safety issues.

**** CHRISTOPHER GRECH XN MR GEORGIOU
PN528

Who used to do this job?---The supervisors.

PN529

Who asked you to do the job?---We were asked by supervisors and management to take on this role.

PN530

How long ago?---Probably looking at about maybe five years ago.

PN531

Paragraph 16:

PN532

It is not a requirement that we present a presentation to management and team members.

PN533

Do team members make presentations to management?---No.

PN534

Ms Spencer suggests that they do. Do you see this as just being an opportunity for you to promote yourself, or do you believe it to be a responsibility in addition to previous responsibilities?---It's a responsibility that I have in turn to help my supervisor in portraying the information that needs to be portrayed correctly.

PN535

With regard to your statement at points 39, 40 and 41 with regard to data entry and the team boards, is that a function that you've always had to perform?---No. When I first became a team leader I had no boards in my section, nothing at all. The first board was probably introduced maybe about end of 99. It was what we called a lollypop board, and on that lollypop board there was only two things on it, and it was a green cross, which is our health and safety sort of monitoring again, and it was I guess a training matrix as well.

PN536

You used to just enter it on paper. Is there a - I'm pre-empting Mr Meallin's questions here. You used to simply present that on paper to the supervisor, and now you just put it on a board. Is that true, or is there more to it?---In regards to, sorry, just ask again, what am I presenting?

PN537

The information that you provide on the team boards?---No, neither. I was never presented it in paper and I never had to put it on a board before.

PN538

Thank you. Fifty five, 56 and 57, the job instruction sheets. Are they like the SOS sheets?---That's not, but they focus more on the safety aspect in doing that job.

**** CHRISTOPHER GRECH XN MR GEORGIOU
PN539

What role do medical risk assessors and engineers play with regard to this process?---Well, they come along, sometimes it from someone's engine, and the medical staff as well as myself will assess the job, have a look at its possibilities for injury, assess risk, I guess how much on a scale of one to five what's the most serious and the worst it's going to injure, and we use this matrix in regards to moving people around. We've been - for example have a sore shoulder, they might have to work at a certain height.

PN540

Why don't you simply call the medical risk assessors or engineers from the start?
---Engineering, ME, in previous, or in the past - we've taken a big step back in regards to our production process, and a lot of the emphasis has been put on team leaders, and all the work that was once done by ME is now pretty much done by team leaders.

PN541

Who told you to do that work?---We were told by our area manager and by our supervisors.

PN542

How long ago?---Probably looking probably five years ago, five to six years ago.

PN543

You say in 58:

PN544

The QCA program is a shipping application program and I am responsible for this.

PN545

Who gave you the responsibility for that?---Management.

PN546

When?---When it probably first come into - about maybe three years ago.

PN547

Mr Grech, do you fill out exception reports?---Yes, I do.

PN548

Do you fill out sick leave forms, annual leave forms et cetera on behalf of team members?---Yes, I do.

PN549

Do you investigate or analyse and fill out incident occurrences?---Yes, I do.

PN550

With regard to - well, I don't even know what PSR and PMP is so I'd better not ask that question. Do you participate in one point lessons?---Yes, I do.

PN551

Do you use computers to communicate via email to external or internal departments?---I don't.

**** CHRISTOPHER GRECH XN MR GEORGIOU
PN552

Do you monitor absenteeism including planned and unplanned absenteeism within your team?---Yes, I do.

PN553

Do you perform risk assessments?---Yes, I do.

PN554

Do you perform risk analysis before reporting to occ health and safety reps?
---Yes, I have.

PN555

Do you use the computers to communicate to ME group leader or any one of these, ME group leader, SQA, QA about issues in your zone?---No, I don't.

PN556

Do you participate in production scheduling?---In regards to changing line cycles, yes, and what's going to be built on a day, sometimes yes.

PN557

Do you participate with your supervisor in overtime forecasting?---Yes, I do.

PN558

Do you fill in time sheets for team members?---Yes, I do.

PN559

Do you deal with outside customers on quality issues?---Yes, I have.

PN560

Do you participate in safety talks?---Yes, I do.

PN561

And do you participate in quality meetings?---Yes, I do.

PN562

Thank you. I've got no further questions, Commissioner.

PN563

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Meallin?

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEALLIN

PN564

MR MEALLIN: Mr Grech, your statement says that you started in June 97 as a line production operator and then became a team leader in 1999. And I take it that you were never a leading hand under the old system, you went straight in as a team leader under the engine company work organisation agreement?---We went through an interview process and was selected, yes, as a candidate for a team leader.

PN565

Right, okay. So you've been a team leader now for around about approximately eight years?---That's correct.

**** CHRISTOPHER GRECH XXN MR MEALLIN
PN566

On point 9 of your statement it says:

PN567

I'm expected to use my personal mobile phone to contact my group leader and team members and for them to contact me.

PN568

And when asked by Mr Georgiou you said that you used your mobile phone in preference to the radio because it was easier to hear or easier to use?---No. I said that - - -

PN569

Sorry. Well, would you in your own words explain it?---No, I didn't say it. I said that one, we don't have radios, we don't carry them, two, I work in an environment that's very noisy and I work under a conveyor and the radio can't be heard if called upon.

PN570

But you have an option to use the radio if you wish?---No, I don't. I don't have a radio.

PN571

So radios are not supplied in your area?---I don't have a radio, no, I don't.

PN572

Okay. In terms of your mobile phone then are you saying that you've been told you have to use your mobile phone?---I've been asked to use my mobile phone, yes.

PN573

And could you see, could you envisage doing the job, but if you didn't have your mobile phone, for example if you'd left it at home one day and didn't have it, would that substantially change the way you would go about your task?---Yes, it would because I wouldn't be accessible.

PN574

Okay. Well, in Ms Spencer's statement she says that - or she does say that team leaders can be contacted during working hours on the radio system. But you're saying, well, that's a moot point because you don't actually have a radio?---That's correct.

PN575

With your mobile phone who pays the bill for work related calls?---I do.

PN576

Okay. So you're not provided any compensation from the company?---No.

PN577

So therefore you have chosen to use your own mobile phone?---I've been asked to.

**** CHRISTOPHER GRECH XXN MR MEALLIN
PN578

Do you feel that you're compelled to use your mobile phone?---Yes, I do.

PN579

MR GEORGIOU: He's answered that three times.

PN580

THE COMMISSIONER: Go on, Mr Meallin.

PN581

MR MEALLIN: Okay, 14:

PN582

Now our responsibility to organise uniform and safety issue orders which is to be done by the group leaders.

PN583

And Ms Spencer's statement says:

PN584

It is not the team leader's responsibility to fill out uniform and shoe orders. Again if a team leader is performing the task it is probably to assist a team member.

PN585

So what is your view of that?---We fill them out and we send them off.

PN586

MR GEORGIOU: Commissioner, I've let this go for a fair while. What the question - the question is not part of cross-examination. It is trying to corroborate what a witness for the company is about to say. Now, it's been - I've let it go for a fair while, but to open up a question by making a statement from a witness who is yet to be heard is a bit rich.

PN587

MR MEALLIN: Well, Mark, in fairness you're the one who has led the evidence.

PN588

THE COMMISSIONER: Just a moment, Mr Meallin. Well, we don't apply strict rules of evidence in the Commission. The Act in fact declares as much. But it's often said that to some extent there should be a puttage rule, and that is that it ill behoves someone when evidence is to be led about something, not later, not to put that evidence to a witness. So in this case if Mr Grech, if his evidence he's sworn as to his statement is at odds with something that's to come later and it's not been dealt with within the examination-in-chief, it really is the responsibility of the cross-examiner to put that to him. And I must say we don't apply that puttage rule strictly, but I want the evidence to help me and to that extent I'm selfish.

PN589

I think the thrust of Mr Georgiou's question has got to be that the evidence is put fairly - the questions are put fairly and they can't mislead. Now, I don't know that that could have misled Mr Grech. But, Mr Meallin, I'll certainly allow you to put evidence that's to come later for observation from Mr Grech. So you can do that. But it is important that it clearly state what the evidence as you understand it that's to follow is.

**** CHRISTOPHER GRECH XXN MR MEALLIN
PN590

MR MEALLIN: Mr Grech, point 16 in your statement:

PN591

It is now a requirement that we present a presentation to management and team members.

PN592

How is that an increased level of responsibility from how you have operated in the past?---Well, when I first became a team leader I didn't even have team meetings. From there it progressed and there was the introduction of team meetings, and then it was once a month we'd have a tour with management in a particular zone, anyone, and it happened to fall in your line at that certain time you'd present your area, problems that you had, and I'd never had to do public speaking like that before, never.

PN593

So is that to say that you're now a lot more involved and visible within the organisation by having to do that than you were in the past?---No. The reason why the team leaders were chosen to do those talks was because our supervisors were changed frequently and their knowledge of certain areas was limited. So in order to get the correct information across to senior management the team leaders took on that responsibility so the correct information was brought across.

PN594

But in terms of when we're talking about a presentation, is this something that specifically you will have to prepare like in a PowerPoint presentation or charts, or are you referring to the boards and pointing out what's already there in the visual controls?---Both.

PN595

So what would be an example where you'd actually have to go out of your way and prepare something specific for an event?---Okay, fine. We used to do quality circle groups, so it would be a group of people, you'd investigate our situation or a problem, you had specific tools that you had to use, only those specific tools, and you had to present that in a public speaking forum to all senior management. Has that answered your question?

PN596

Yes. But my understanding of the original engine operation, engine company work organisation agreement was that they had quality circles and that presentations would be done through what was then known as the Q&S?---I piloted quality circles and I mentored quality circles, so no, your information is incorrect.

PN597

And what year was it that quality circles were piloted?---Probably looking at 1999 to 2000 might have been the first ones that went through.

**** CHRISTOPHER GRECH XXN MR MEALLIN
PN598

Which was round about the time you started as a team leader?---That's correct.

PN599

Okay. Moving then now on to point 39 of your statement:

PN600

When I first started there were no team boards and this was the first significant change to our responsibilities.

PN601

And then you follow on to say that started about eight years ago, round about the time you became a team leader. And 41:

PN602

This input of data has been built on and the board today is radically different from when it first came in.

PN603

So I think you described it yourself that there were two key metrics that were on the boards when you first started, I think green cross and tracking of training I think you said, and now there's a whole range of metrics which include the SPQRC of the GMS system. By the boards being expanded how has that increased your level of responsibility?---Well, my level of responsibility is again, I have to present my absenteeism on the board for my team, I have to present my budget, how much I've spent in that month for my team. Any problems that I've got which arise is on that board. We've still got the green cross, production schedules and how my team meets its production schedule. And yes, it's just a visual way of - and you can be questioned and audited on that board at any time.

PN604

Now, granted that the boards are much more comprehensive than they used to be in terms of their content, isn't it still basically you inputting that data and keeping those charts and metrics up to date as you progress through the day of your team?
---No. When I first came as team leader I had - I explained before I had a lollypop board. It had two things on it, a green course and a matrix, a flexibility matrix chart. The flexibility matrix chart was filled in by the training trainer and the supervisor, never by me. The training trainer was an individual person with an allowance, and he was a qualified trainer and he trained and filled in that flexibility chart. The only thing I did was monitor my green cross from day to day, that was all my board. Since then I've got other things that I have to monitor on my board. The stuff that I'm monitoring on my board now, there was one board and it was at the end of the line and that was done by the supervisor, never by team leaders before. The team leaders never even touched that board. That was implemented, problems were solved and everything was done by the supervisor, not by the team leaders.

**** CHRISTOPHER GRECH XXN MR MEALLIN
PN605

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Grech, we're going to have you pause there please. We're going to take the luncheon adjournment. We'll resume at 2.15. Mr Grech, during the luncheon adjournment you can speak with people but not about your evidence. Do you understand that?---Yes, Commissioner.

PN606

All right, we'll adjourn now until 2.15.

<LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.59PM]
<RESUMED [2.14PM]

PN607

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Meallin?

PN608

MR MEALLIN: Mr Grech, just picking up from where we left off following the lunchtime adjournment, I'd like to draw your attention to 58 in your statement:

PN609

The QCA program is a shipping application program and I am responsible for this.

PN610

Now, can you just explain exactly what you're responsible for, which shipping program?---Well, QCA is an updated version of what is known, formerly known as the shipping application. When QCA came about, it's basically a program that GM uses worldwide, and it had to become user friendly and had to coincide with what we currently do at Holden down at Fishermans Bend. When this system first came about myself along with the PDS had no supervisors and no management because they weren't aware and they weren't familiarised with the program like I am, and there was no one involved from quality when this first started to come about, and they basically changed certain parts of the system to duplicate what was currently there, and as responsible I actually had to sign off, not my manager, I had to sign off that that system would suit our application and our current work process. Now, it was my signature, my user ID and my clock card number, so I took responsibility of introducing that system into our production process.

PN611

Do other team leaders have to do the same as a result?---I can only speak for my own area. Other team leaders once using that system again have to log on, you do have to use a user ID and you are responsible for everything, for any changes you do within that system and you're answerable for any - I shouldn't say answer, but you're accountable for anything that you do in that system.

PN612

Well, from memory, when the daily inspections were done your work team was towards the end of the Family 2 production process where - - -?---I am the end of Family 2, yes.

**** CHRISTOPHER GRECH XXN MR MEALLIN
PN613

Yes, the end of Family 2 where, I take it, the engines are then boxed and then shipped in containers?---That's correct.

PN614

So is this unique for your team leader role by virtue of the fact that you're at the very end of the engine production process prior to them being shipped?---Not necessarily. It's unique to myself and it's unique to the shipping officers fork truck drivers who work in that particular area, and part of QC&A was to implement quality in that as well, and now it's stretched further so it's actually gone up the line and is pretty much now recognisable from the beginning of the line, so it's got to pass through certain stages, this engine, and it's just a system that's constantly evolving and gone in its process. So it's not just - no longer me who is responsible for it, it's other departments and other people, other team leaders throughout the line.

PN615

So if we could break down just into tasks of what this involves you having to do, do I understand it correctly that you are scanning the engines and then tracking them for the shipping process so that you know when it's gone off the line into the container?---That's correct, that's one process, yes.

PN616

Okay. So in terms of responsibility is that focused on you ensuring that you've got the scanning and the input right so that there's data integrity in the system, or are you saying there's something else over and above that in terms of responsibility that that confers on you as the team leader?---There is that, and it was over and above that when we first implemented this process. Again, like, I'll repeat myself again, the area manager didn't sign off, I was responsible for signing off, he would not sign off unless I approved it, and this wasn't a supervisor, there was no supervisor approval because the supervisor had no idea about the system whatsoever, still doesn't know anything about the system.

PN617

So as the team leader of that area are you the last person to verify that that engine has gone into the container for shipping?---I'm the last person to verify that that engine has gone into a box, and it's packaging date and this is what's in this box, and then someone else is responsible for placing that into a container and shipping that container.

PN618

And I think you said that that was delegated to you some three years ago?---QCA has been three years ago but it's first delegation was when it probably first came into effect as a shipping application, and that was probably some five years ago. QC&A, again to explain it, it's just an updated version of what we were currently using and I guess a better format and something that was just word - with GM a worldwide program that they had purchased.

**** CHRISTOPHER GRECH XXN MR MEALLIN
PN619

Okay. All right, I'll draw your attention now to 61 with regard to the quality audit sheets:

PN620

This is related to quality where we have to undertake training in this area, whereas this was done by the quality department in the past.

PN621

Can you just elaborate a bit more on exactly what is the responsibility that has increased in that particular function?---Well, basically now the biggest responsibility is we're becoming accountable. We now must sign off every sheet that we audit, sign off a board, and we have to explain if our audits are not done and if our boards are not signed. So we have to actually hand in these company documents that we were doing our audits before. The audits were done by quality, quality assurance, and we pretty much didn't have anything to do with that.

PN622

But then when it comes to layered audits is this purely in the domain of the team leaders, or do supervisors have to also sign off their layered audits at their level?
---They have their own layered audits which is exactly the same as ours, the spitting image, and they do their own layered audit once we've done ours, and they do the same.

PN623

And above them would area managers also have to do the same?---Area managers have done quality audits, anyone can do a quality audit.

PN624

So it would be fair to say then that the layered audits is basically cascaded from plant management right down to the team leader and even the team members?
---No. It started at team leader and it's gone the other way out now, so team leaders first and the audits.

PN625

Okay. And I'll draw your attention to 64:

PN626

We're also required to fill in for our group leader when he/she is not able to be present.

PN627

Now, in regards to that how often have you been called upon to act in the supervisor group leader role?---Many times, and I've spent probably - my longest period would have been a six month run as being a group leader, and in that six month run, I know you're going to ask me, so no, I wasn't remunerated for that.

**** CHRISTOPHER GRECH XXN MR MEALLIN
PN628

But that - - -

PN629

MR GEORGIOU: Could you repeat that, I didn't hear that?---I was not remunerated for that six month run as acting group leader.

PN630

MR MEALLIN: Okay. But my understanding is that when any team leader acts in an acting supervisor role or group leader role there is a specific allowance that stands alone in an acting up position?---I believe there is, but I also believe that there are a lot of team leaders that do the role sometimes and they're not rewarded for it.

PN631

But your understanding would be that the normal practice would be that if you do act up in an acting supervisor role you would get paid the specific allowance?---I believe - my understanding is I believe you should, and I haven't been, so I no longer fill that position.

PN632

Okay. All right. Well, thank you, Mr Grech. No further questions, Commissioner.

PN633

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Georgiou?

PN634

MR GEORGIOU: I have one question of Mr Grech.

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR GEORGIOU [2.22PM]

PN635

MR GEORGIOU: With regard to the layered audits you said that they cascaded up, and Mr Meallin asked you a question with regard to supervisors performing the layered audits. To your knowledge do supervisors perform layered audits?
---Yes, they do.

PN636

Thank you. No questions, Commissioner.

PN637

THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks, Mr Grech, for your evidence, you can step down?---Thank you very much.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [2.23PM]

PN638

MR GEORGIOU: Commissioner, I have no further witnesses to call, and I think it may be opportune to go off the record and talk about the timing for further evidence and submissions, because I'm mindful that the Commission has a matter at 3.30.

PN639

THE COMMISSIONER: I don't want you to be troubled about that.

PN640

MR GEORGIOU: It's a question of whether I get a run at the company's witness over a period of time or whether that would be truncated.

PN641

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. Well, I'm going to have a conference with the advocates so I'm going to ask everyone else to leave us for a minute or two. We'll now go off the record.

<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [2.23PM]
<RESUMED [2.29PM]

PN642

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Meallin? That concludes your evidentiary case, Mr Georgiou?

PN643

MR GEORGIOU: Yes, Commissioner.

PN644

THE COMMISSIONER: Certainly insofar as Melbourne is concerned?

PN645

MR GEORGIOU: Sorry, yes, I just thought of that as well.

PN646

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right, thank you. Yes, Mr Meallin?

PN647

MR MEALLIN: Commissioner, I would like to call Michelle Spencer to the stand please.

<MICHELLE SIMONE SPENCER, SWORN [2.30PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MEALLIN

PN648

MR MEALLIN: Ms Spencer, for the Commission could you please state your full name and address?---My name is Michelle Simone Spencer (address supplied).

PN649

And you have prepared a statement for today's proceedings?---Yes, I have.

PN650

And as you make in point 2 you state that this is true in every respect?---Yes, it is.

PN651

And there are no amendments that you wish to make to this statement?---No, there are not.

PN652

Okay. Commissioner, I'd like to tender this statement as evidence.

PN653

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. It does form part of M1 but I will mark it separately.

EXHIBIT #M2 STATEMENT OF MICHELLE SPENCER

PN654

MR MEALLIN: Now, Ms Spencer, just very briefly could you just outline your current role and history at GM Holden?---My current role is that I'm Family 2 Operations Production Manager. In this current role I basically manage the operations of Family 2 which entitles assembly, fabrication and foundry areas within the engine plant.

PN655

Okay. And as you say in your statement, you started back in 1995 as a metallurgist?---I started in February 1994 as a metallurgist and after that I moved into a role as melt area supervisor, it was about 1995, after that I had a role, I moved into a role as a senior metallurgist, after that I moved into a role as a quality engineer, after that I moved into a role back as a senior metallurgist, and after that I moved into the role of Disamatic area manager, and after that I was promoted into the role of production manager for the foundry, and after that I moved into the role of quality assurance manager for engine operations, after that I moved into the foundry manager, and March this year I moved into the role of Family 2 operations production manager.

PN656

Okay. And if I can take you to point 6 of your statement, you say:

PN657

In my current role I have overall responsibility for those employees designated as team leaders. The team leaders report to the supervisor of their section who in turn report to the applicable area manager of the plant.

**** MICHELLE SIMONE SPENCER XN MR MEALLIN
PN658

You state that you currently have six of these area managers that report direct to you in your role?---That's correct.

PN659

And there are currently 104 team leaders across of Holden's engine operations, most of whom are in the Family and Family 2 engine production which comes under your span of control?---That's correct.

PN660

So are you able to tell us under the six area managers how many supervisors would report up through that?---In the vicinity of the low twenties, about 20 supervisors, 20 to 25, in that range.

PN661

And of the 104 team leaders across the whole HEO organisation how many would come under your span of control?---That's probably around 60 to 65 of the 104.

PN662

So a majority clearly come under your span of control in your management role?
---That is correct.

PN663

And therefore you'd say that you would be quite well placed to be able to give evidence in regards to the role of the team leader and indeed how it has evolved since the original 1994 agreement?---Yes, I believe I am.

PN664

Okay. Ms Spencer, I'll now take you to point 7 of your statement, and you say there that from around 2001 you were involved in implementing work units in the foundry in accordance with the HEC work organisation agreement, that is the original 1994 agreement. Can you tell the court exactly what did that entail?
---Well, it entailed basically the agreement that was formed as part of the 99 - well, actually my first involvement with it was part of the quality network synchronous program that we did run and I participated in that program, I think it was about 95-96 was my first opportunity to actually be familiar with the quality network synchronous program and the synchronous work unit leader, and part of that package, and I attended one of those sessions, was around basically developing the synchronous work units, and the process was around setting them up and training synchronous work units leaders around how to basically become a synchronous work unit leader and understanding the principles of Q&S which entitled - at that stage was the manufacturing system that we were using to support the business.

PN665

Okay. So I suppose for the benefit of the Commission, and we keep referring to this quality network synchronous Q&S and GMS global management system, what is the exact difference between those two terms?---Well, actually the GMS system, global manufacturing system basically superseded the Q&S system. It brought about a lot more clarity to the process than the Q&S. The Q&S was really made around continuous improvement, it was around facilitating the work group in terms of the unit team leader area, synchronous work in leader area, it looked at brainstorming, it looked at initiatives in terms of improving the workplace, and the GMS really took it to the next level and rather than it being broader statements it actually detailed the statements in detail and gave more clarity around what the requirements were for the manufacturing system.

**** MICHELLE SIMONE SPENCER XN MR MEALLIN
PN666

So would it be fair to say that GMS and Q&S are really basically the same thing?
---They basically are with a lot more clarity is in GMS, and that makes it a lot easier that there's a lot more clarity because it's not left up to interpretation.

PN667

But notwithstanding the evolution of more detail conceptually it's the same - - -?
---Conceptually it's about basically continuous improvement, and both of them are about continuous improvement and improving the workplace through continuous improvement.

PN668

And I take it from that that underpinning both was standardisation across the whole HEO organisation?---Absolutely. That's one of the key elements.

PN669

Okay. All right. If I could draw your attention to nine in your statement, where you state:

PN670

You were involved in the review of the work organisation agreements mentioned in this clause, specifically the HEC as it was, Holden's engine company work organisation agreement. I understand that the review commenced in December 2005 and through of all 2006 and 2007.

PN671

Would you be able to explain to the Commission exactly what did your involvement entail?---Yes, absolutely. The involvement really was around assessing the 1994 synchronous work unit steps, and we also then looked at the requirements of the team leader and we assessed to see, and I believe they fitted within the 1994 agreement. And so we actually went into detail and discussed each of the statements in the 1994 agreement, and then showed how that fit in with the requirements and the guidelines that we have set. And I think it's in attachment 3, was basically the outcome. Let me just clarify that was attachment number 3. Yes, attachment number 3 in my submission, really to clarify it and further detail it, and it was really an assessment that we did on every single one of those statements in attachment 3, and brought that in line and looked at it for every single statement in the 1994 agreement. And I was personally involved in that.

PN672

So when you say you were personally involved, were you one of the key people in the organisation involved in that?---Yes. I was involved in it in twofold, in that we did it as a management team and I was part of that management team, but I also at that time was the one that sat down with Chris Taylor, who was the HR manager at that time, and specifically went through every single clause in that and prepared that for the management team for us to then review it as a group. So I actually did a lot of the preparation work with Chris Taylor to prepare that statement, and then we presented it and talked about it with the management team to get their input further.

**** MICHELLE SIMONE SPENCER XN MR MEALLIN
PN673

And in your statement under 10 you said that Mr Luca Picci, the senior employee representative of the AMWU vehicle division was also closely involved in that review?---Yes, and we'd gone through that review with him on many a times in terms of the attachment 3 that's attached here.

PN674

So this review entailed what, regular meetings?---Yes. Well, I was specifically involved with Chris Taylor in terms of sitting down with Luca. It was Chris Taylor that did the actual communication and liaison through Luca, so I wasn't involved in that side of it, but I was involved with the preparation side of it.

PN675

Okay. Now, in 13 and 14 of your statement, 13 simply reiterates the 10 work unit legal responsibilities which have been lifted straight from the 94 agreement?
---Correct, yes.

PN676

Fourteen, you refer to the fact that:

PN677

The responsibilities of the team leader role are contained in the HEC work organisation agreement because this was when the role was first envisaged in the context of transition to work units. There was no set timeline for the implementation of the team leader role.

PN678

So can you just explain what actually happened in terms of the 94 - yes, the 94 agreement which came in the end of 94 in the enterprise agreement to the actual implementation that you say that you were involved in in 99?---Okay. Basically from the 1994 agreement the next step was really to launch the Q&S program, and part of that to run the synchronous work units, and it was done in a staged process, and we did area by area, and so some areas took longer than others to get implemented, and because we were trying to support the initiative and make sure that the individuals and the people that were involved, in particular the synchronous work unit leaders who are now known as the team leaders, had every opportunity obviously to succeed in the program, so we actually endeavoured into a training program and coaching sessions in terms of actually running the training program. And then there was a number of follow up sessions after that so that we could then review and see whether we were progressing correctly, whether there were barriers, where there were problems so that we could address them along the way to support the initiative.

PN679

MR GEORGIOU: Commissioner, can I just ask, the witness refers to we in her evidence, and I just needed clarity - - -?---The - - -

**** MICHELLE SIMONE SPENCER XN MR MEALLIN
PN680

THE COMMISSIONER: Just a moment, Ms Spencer.

PN681

MR GEORGIOU: I need to clarify as to whether the we involves the witness or management in general?---Management in general.

PN682

Thank you.

PN683

MR MEALLIN: All right. So just following on from that, you've stated in 15 that there was a shift from the Q&S manufacturing system to the GMS manufacturing system in the late 1990s and it took time to become familiar with that new system, also there was a change of management in Holden around late 1990s early 2000s and there was at that time less focus on work organisation generally. If you just elaborate on what you mean by less focused?---Yes. I think, you know, when we implemented Q&S, you know, the leadership at the time were very familiar witness the Q&S program, and so the program started and got pretty involved and the organisation was heading down that path. We had a change in management and probably as a result of that we had less familiarity around the system, and it was not until we, you know, we really started to understand the requirements of GMS that we actually started to implement it because, you know, we have to learn the new system and understand the differences between it. And it took some time for management also to get an understanding of that to be able to then implement it.

PN684

Okay. And in 16 you refer to the predecessors to the team leaders being the leading hands. Do we still have leading hands in Holden engine operations?---We only have leading hands from a trades perspective, not from a non trade perspective.

PN685

So in terms - - -?---We have what we call red circled leading hands, but they're not acting in that capacity.

PN686

So in terms of the transition from the old leading hand structure to the team leader structure insofar as the non trade production workforce is concerned at HEO that's complete?---Correct, yes.

PN687

Okay. However you would obviously have had a lot of experience with the old leading hand system because - - -

PN688

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Meallin, I think in the same way as I've put this to Mr Georgiou, it's better to drag that out of the witness.

**** MICHELLE SIMONE SPENCER XN MR MEALLIN
PN689

MR MEALLIN: Okay, all right.

PN690

And so, Ms Spencer, you're quite au fait with the old leading hand?---Yes, I was. I was a supervisor so I directly dealt with the leading hands.

PN691

Okay. And put simply what was the basic function of the leading hand?---As I had stated in my statement here, the basic function of the leading hand was really a coordinating type function, they were responsible for making sure that the team members had all the required tools and equipment to be able to perform their function. They would make sure that things flowed and that the process was being followed, and they would escalate issues up through to their supervisor.

PN692

Okay. Now, in 18 you refer to a document which I think is attachment 1 to your statement from a Mr Paulo Marasco?---Yes.

PN693

Could you just explain to the Commission what this document is?---Yes. I acquired a folder that was probably about, I don't know, three inches thick in terms of the SWU process and all the work that was being done back in 1997 when we were trying to launch it, and basically this statement was a summary that indicated as a result of the sessions that were being run what some of the issues and some of the main functions that were required as part of the SWU, or the synchronous work unit leaders to perform so that they could have some guidance and some requirements in terms of what they should do as part of the meetings, as part of the function et cetera. And a number of statements there that were contained in it and, you know, making reference to the continuous improvement and facilitating the meetings and running through the process.

PN694

And you've dated this document 1997?---Yes.

PN695

Which I understand was still when the implementation of the team based organisation was in its infancy?---Correct, it was in its infancy.

PN696

MR GEORGIOU: I'm letting it go, but there are statements in here, and it's an estimate that's stated, not that you have dated. And Mr Meallin is asking contradictory questions to what the evidence is of the witness. I would have thought he's almost cross-examining, which isn't the role of the examination-in-chief. So can he leave all those tricky little bits to me otherwise I've got no role to play. But he can't do that, he can't - where the witness has said I estimate, he can't then say you have dated, and the witness then agrees.

**** MICHELLE SIMONE SPENCER XN MR MEALLIN
PN697

MR MEALLIN: All right, well, I should correct that.

PN698

You've dated this in about 1997?---Correct. All the other documentation that was dated in that folder was 1997.

PN699

Thank you. All right. So is there anything else you wish to say about attachment 1 in terms of its significance?---No, not at this stage, thank you.

PN700

All right, moving on. Can I draw your attention to 20, in which you refer to the document as attachment 2? Could you explain to the Commission the significance of attachment 2?---Okay. Attachment 2 is basically a memo that summarises some of the findings and issues that were coming about as part of the implementation SWU, and it really goes into detail to try to pinpoint what some of the issues were and to then try to obviously look at, well, what can we do to try to assist and improve the parts of the process that were falling down and needed assistance to continue forward. And it's a summary of all the issues that were being found at that time when they were implementing the SWU, and it talked about some of the progress, barriers, et cetera.

PN701

Okay. All right, in 21 in your statement, Ms Spencer, you refer to the fact that to reflect the increase in the level of responsibility from the role of leading hand to team leader a team leader allowance was introduced, and the amount of the team leader allowance was equal to the allowance that the leading hands received when their work units exceeded 20 persons. So given that you then go on to say that team leaders typically worked in work units of between eight and 12 persons, why was that the case?---It was the case because of the level of responsibility that at the time was assessed, the team leader function, it was deemed that the higher rate would be selected to reflect the responsibility and the requirement of the team leader.

PN702

So when the teams were officially declared and formed and the team leader selected, did the team leader then receive that new team leader allowance from day one, or was there a period of time in which it cut in?---No, from the time that - and each area was different because it took different amounts of time to implement in different areas. From the areas that they were implemented and the time that the team leaders were implemented they received that allowance.

PN703

Okay. All right, now, I'll take you to 22, and:

**** MICHELLE SIMONE SPENCER XN MR MEALLIN
PN704

As a result of the HEC work organisation review a draft document called the Holden's Engine Operations Non Trade Team Leader Review 2007, which is included in the submission materials.

PN705

In terms of the methodology of the work that you did in the review of this document can I now take you to your attachment 3, and can you explain to the Commission what does this document actually tell us and why is it laid out in the way in which it is?---Well, the process that we undertook was to evaluate all the functions that I believe that the team leader should be doing as part of their role, and the process was to then compare each one of those to the 1994 agreement and to identify which one of those statements fit in with the 1994 agreement. So the second column is basically the reference to the 1994 agreement in attachment 3, and the first column being the statement or job function as part of the team leader role.

PN706

So when was this document actually created?---This document actually - the final draft was in 2007, but we actually were working on this, I think it was early 2006, so it took, you know, it took some time in terms of creating it and then also in discussions with the union and reviewing the document and the content of the document.

PN707

So it's been work in progress?---Yes, absolutely.

PN708

And been progressively refined as you've gone along?---Correct.

PN709

Okay. I note that there is a status column on the right hand side listed "Have been performing, yes/no, still required to perform, yes/no." What does that actually tell us?---This was also to review status in terms of, because we were obviously at the time in a form of industrial action, it was - - -

PN710

MR GEORGIOU: I object, Commissioner. I object to the witness. It's not in her evidence, this is not something that she can attest to with regard to whether there was industrial action. There is nothing that prepares me for this question. If Mr Meallin wants to raise other issues with regard to that document, but it is not part of her evidence that it has anything to do with any industrial action.

PN711

MR MEALLIN: And certainly, Commissioner, I'm not proposing to go into the history of any industrial action that occurred, rather - - -

**** MICHELLE SIMONE SPENCER XN MR MEALLIN
PN712

THE COMMISSIONER: Just a moment, Mr Meallin. Go on, Mr Georgiou.

PN713

MR GEORGIOU: And if there was industrial action then the company is obliged to notify this Commission under the procedures that bind us with regard to any industrial action, and such application has not been made, and I object to this.

PN714

MR MEALLIN: Yes. And the point I would make is I'm certainly not wanting to draw any attention to the industrial action, rather just simply establish that in terms of the identified tasks what is it that the organisation sees as being required for the future and what so happens to be having been done or not being done to date to give it some sort of perspective. So hopefully that's clear.

PN715

THE COMMISSIONER: Go on, Mr Meallin.

PN716

MR MEALLIN: Okay. Ms Spencer, so just for example, and it seems that this has been done in a very methodical way, if we refer back to the column that says comparison to 1994 EBA, refer attachment, if you go back to page 4 of your statement under 13, where the 10 work unit leader responsibilities have been lifted from the 94 agreement, I take it that where this is numbered it is taking the identified responsibilities that we see for the team leader in the 2007 document against how it correlates back to the 1994 agreement, is that correct?
---Absolutely, that's exactly what was done.

PN717

And in some cases there's actually multiple references?---Yes, that's correct.

PN718

For example in 2.1 assign team member to tasks, it says 4, which is facilitate the work of a synchronous work unit. But if we look at, say 2.2, maintain team boards, that's the metrics, it refers to 4, 5, 9 and 10?---That is correct.

PN719

Okay, in the 94 agreement, okay. Now, I note that the actual items that have been identified as being ongoing in the 2007 agreement have their headings shaded in yellow. On the second page of that document headed "Team leader not required to perform" as the current and not shaded, what is that telling us?---Well, it's basically reviewing all the requirements as put forward by the union and the statement by the witnesses in terms of things that they were saying that they were doing. We actually reviewed whether that was actually a requirement of the team leader to do that job function or not, and that actually goes into detail and actually lists some of the items that we do not require to be part of team leader responsibilities.

**** MICHELLE SIMONE SPENCER XN MR MEALLIN
PN720

Okay. So for example under 2 where it says "You stop watch the time operates equipments and processes," it's been listed as not applicable because it's not required in the new document?---Correct.

PN721

And I take it that in this particular example it's something that the team leaders have either performed in the past or are still doing?---Yes.

PN722

But they're not required to perform in the future?---Correct. And there's a number, you know, a number of the statements where there are certain isolated incidents of where team leaders have been doing it but is not a requirement as part of the team leader responsibilities for that role to be performed.

PN723

Okay. Well, Ms Spencer, under 14 you say that the responsibilities of the team leader in the work org agreement, following on in that second sentence:

PN724

There was no set timeline for implementing the team leader role.

PN725

?---No. You know, it spanned over almost five years from area to area, because the foundry was actually the last implemented and it wasn't until 2003 that it was actually implemented in the foundry, so it was about a five year span from the time that we were rolling the synchronous work units, or it's actually probably a little bit more than five years, we started rolling out the synchronous work unit process part of the Q&S until some of the areas that actually got implemented not until 2003.

PN726

But notwithstanding that length of time, that protracted period, was the organisation still committed to implementing work organisation?---They were certainly committed to it. I think there was a bit of a lull I believe in about three years there where we were not as committed, and we actually, you know, it took some time to really understand the requirements of GMS, and while we were trying to do that other things were going on trying to understand that, and it slowed the process down. It was too slow if you ask me.

PN727

Okay. Now, in terms of the review itself in 22, as you have said it was developed and jointly agreed between Holden and the unions?---Correct.

PN728

And then following on from that in 23 you've reiterated in clause 14 that states:

PN729

In the implementation and operation of the synchronous work units the group leader supervisor is responsible for overall organisation and planning.

**** MICHELLE SIMONE SPENCER XN MR MEALLIN
PN730

?---Correct.

PN731

So what does that mean?---Well, it means that, you know, the supervisor is still ultimately responsible for the area and making sure that the area is functioning, you know, making sure that the work unit teams are functioning as well. So the ultimate responsibility in that still lies with the supervisor. Team leaders play a big role in terms of supporting that within their work units, but the ultimate responsibility still lies with the supervision.

PN732

So in your time at HEO has the - would you say the ratio of supervision to team leaders has substantially altered over that period?---The ratio hasn't substantially altered. The only time that it's ever altered is with volume changes, and that's also been the case in terms of team leaders and supervisors and all levels of management. When volume has changed it would reflect the increase and decrease in volume, but ultimately the ratio is about the same, it hasn't changed.

PN733

Okay. And you state in 25 that throughout your involvement in the review you were very conscious of the fact that the responsibilities of the supervisor have not and will not change under the revised work organisation arrangements. Why was that, what was your understanding?---There's also, you know, a requirement in terms of responsibilities of the supervisors that are also in there, and we've also been mindful of that and to not alter and change that.

PN734

Okay. Moving on now to clause 30, you state that:

PN735

I have reviewed all of those responsibilities listed in the review draft and consider that they have been performed by team leaders in the normal course of their work since the inception of the role, albeit that the various tasks have evolved and clarified since the role was envisaged.

PN736

So what are you exactly meaning by that?---That basically that, you know, we've reviewed the document as per the 94 agreement and believe that it still falls within the requirements there, and we've been mindful of that to understand the 94 agreement as well as the responsibilities that we've outlined here in attachment 3.

PN737

And then you go on to say that:

PN738

There may be examples of team leaders voluntarily taking on responsibilities which are not strictly within the scope of their responsibilities.

**** MICHELLE SIMONE SPENCER XN MR MEALLIN
PN739

And then using the example of the mobile phones. Are there other examples that you can think of that would be - - -?---I mean, there's a couple of other examples that some of the witnesses have made today. There are cases of areas that are doing such stuff, but as I mentioned, in terms of the agreement, in terms of the team leader responsibilities mentioned in attachment 3, is not the expectation for that to occur.

PN740

Okay. Moving now to 32 in your statement, and this specifically refers to the witness statement of Danny McDonald. Under point 4 you state that:

PN741

The example of a team leader writing SOS sheets is in line with the responsibilities as outlined in the HEC work org agreement specifically to facilitate work of the synchronous work unit.

PN742

And you cross reference that to number 4 and number 5?---Five, yes.

PN743

Of those respective documents, being the 94 responsibilities and attachment 3?
---Correct.

PN744

Okay?---That's correct. And in fact a part of the synchronous work units when we were running the sessions were actually doing some of that as part of the training and development of that.

PN745

Now, you do make the point that in regard to the SOSs there is a higher than normal amount of work load and there is a temporary fix in place to deal with that?---Yes, that is correct. We've assisted, in particular the Family 2 assembly area, because they have not been updated since the start of the year. We'd actually assisted in that in putting in two extra acting team leaders to assist with that because the work load was at that time excessive. We've also had the rolling changes, so in response to that we've increased the work load, we've tried to help the situation and put in some acting to support and enable that to get done.

PN746

And you conclude that paragraph by saying once that backlog of work is done then it will be business as usual?---Correct.

PN747

You would expect that the team leaders would just continue to update them as a matter of course?---Yes, and we're about 80 per cent of the way through at the moment in terms of getting them all updated so we're not too far away from that.

**** MICHELLE SIMONE SPENCER XN MR MEALLIN
PN748

Okay. In relation to 11 of Mr McDonald's statement, total preventative maintenance:

PN749

Team leaders perform a check sheet function that requires them to inspect and report issues or maintenance to their supervisor depending on the nature of the issue.

PN750

You're making it clear in your statement that it is a responsibility of maintenance to do any mechanical work to resolve the issue?---That is correct, yes.

PN751

So that's to say that the team leader wouldn't be doing anything that would intrude into the domain of maintenance?---That is correct, yes, it should not.

PN752

Their role is - - -

PN753

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Meallin, I think that really should be a question.

PN754

MR MEALLIN: Okay. Do the team leaders at all do anything that you feel would intrude into the domain of the maintenance?---Obviously there's some team leaders or people that would testify that they believe that they're doing it. That is not our intention for them to be doing it, as set out in attachment 3.

PN755

In regard to the layered audits under the point 25 of Mr McDonald's statements, you have correlated that back to number 6 in the agreement, which reads:

PN756

Ensures that the unit members follow and maintain standardised work through training and instruction.

PN757

?---That is correct. The layered audits, a basic function, it is to ensure that standardised work is followed and that the work is followed as stated in the SOS, and to confirm that the job is being done as per the SOS, and it also checks quality items as listed in the SOS so that to make sure that we confirm that we are doing them on a daily basis.

PN758

And do you see that as consistent with the intent of the 94 agreement responsibilities for team leaders?---Absolutely. I believe it gives a lot more clarity to it. I mean, the intent in the 94 agreement really was to ensure, and if I can quote item number 6 "ensures that unit members follow and attain standardised work through training and instruction." Well, it basically helps to pinpoint the bits and the parts that are really the important part of it rather than then leaving it up to the team leader to decide what part of it they should be checking to see whether we're maintaining and following standardised work. So it steps through it.

**** MICHELLE SIMONE SPENCER XN MR MEALLIN
PN759

Okay. In regards to point 27, you state that team leaders are not required to fill out exception reports, this is the responsibility of the supervisors. Is that quite unequivocal?---It is absolutely the responsibility of the supervisors who advises, the person that signs their name at the bottom of that document to verify the content of it. I understand that some team leaders might be giving supporting information towards that document, but it's ultimately the supervisor's responsibility, the supervisor who signs their signature at the bottom of that piece of documentation.

PN760

You say in Mr McDonald's point 29:

PN761

Team leaders are not required to monitor absenteeism. Again this is the supervisor's responsibility.

PN762

So again you would say that that is quite clear and unambiguous?---That is correct. The supervisors have a calendar that they must maintain and monitor on each of the employees in terms of attendance, annual leave, et cetera. The team leaders do input into the SPQRC boards. One of their metrics under people could be to plot how many people are away on a particular day, but that information is all fed up to the supervisor and the supervisor is the responsible person for taking action should there be a need as a result of attendance issues, et cetera.

PN763

Well, in your role as the overall manager for the department do you have any further expectation that team leaders would get involved in absenteeism?---I wouldn't expect the team leader to discipline anyone at all in terms that that is the supervisor's job.

PN764

Right. In terms of responding to 30 to 37, Mr McDonald's statement, you refer to the blue card system and you say that:

PN765

The team leader's responsibility in relation to the blue card system involved filling it out accurately and ensuring that the team leaders follow standardised work practices as the first step in resolving the problems. Any follow up outside that is escalated to the supervisor.

**** MICHELLE SIMONE SPENCER XN MR MEALLIN
PN766

Is there anything else that the team leader would be likely to get involved in from what you've said in the blue card system?---They might give their input in terms of issues and that, but, you know, the blue card system is really the first four steps of the seven diamond process, and it asks four fundamental questions. Within those four questions there's a number of prompters that we have in the blue card so that we don't miss any. It fundamentally checks that we're following standardised work that we have, standardised tools to be able to do the job, that the parts are okay, and that's what all the questions are centred around, and it takes each of those elements and basically breaks it down and steps through it, so you don't have to use your imagination in terms of what are the sorts of questions I should be checking to see whether I'm following what I'm supposed to be following. And that's really what it does, it steps through that. And if, you know, there's an issue from that perspective and we haven't followed the SOS it's a case of making sure that we've followed the SOS. If that is outside the scope of that it actually gets written down on the blue card that, you know, that yes, we followed everything, and then it actually gets referenced to what we call a PSR, which is a problem solving report that actually goes into in depth problem solving. So all the elements, we've followed the steps of the process as required, are being met then it gets issued into a PSR and that gets escalated to basically the supervisor to raise the PSR and go through the steps of the problem solving if it's outside that realm.

PN767

Forty refers to team leaders not being required to fill out forms. Is there any expectation by you, the manager, that they would have to fill out forms in any way, shape or form?---No. I mean, even team members fill out their own forms in some cases. I can understand that people would help other team members. I mean, I would help a team member, another person to fill out a form.

PN768

Okay. In responding to 44 of Mr McDonald's statement which refers to the induction and training of new team members, you're saying that in attachment 3 that corresponds directly with one which quite clearly says induct new members and provide job orientation training (mentor)?---Yes.

PN769

Is that to say that you don't think that role has changed at all since the 94 agreement to the 2007 agreement?---I believe so. I mean, the team leaders are actually the people that understand the roles the best in terms of the area, they're the ones that are in that area day on a daily basis, they're the most knowledgeable in the area and the most capable in that respect of being able to train people in the area because they're familiar with the work.

**** MICHELLE SIMONE SPENCER XN MR MEALLIN
PN770

Okay. In terms of responding to 52 and 53 of Mr McDonald's statement you state you are unaware of suppliers being present at verification meetings but in any event it is not the responsibility of the team leaders to liaise with suppliers?---Yes, obviously by the statements - - -

PN771

MR GEORGIOU: Commissioner, there was not a question there. There was simply a - - -

PN772

MR MEALLIN: I was getting to it.

PN773

MR GEORGIOU: Yes, I know but there was an answer coming in the middle and I'd like to know what the questions are rather than reinforcing what's in the statement.

PN774

MR MEALLIN: Well, my question to you, Ms Spencer, is either directly or indirectly is there any expectation that the team leader needs to be directly involved with suppliers?---They do not have to contact the supplier in any way. That's done by the SQA department. Suppliers may attend meetings and obviously in some cases that has happened and might ask a question specific to all the people that are attending the team that if someone knows the answer that generally the person will speak up and give a response to it, if they are able to answer the question that's been asked. But the responsibility lies with SQA to communicate and facilitate with suppliers.

PN775

So it's not about the responsibility, it's their input that they can put into that process?---Correct, yes. Yes, they do and have given input, absolutely.

PN776

MR GEORGIOU: Can we just get questions asked?

PN777

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Meallin. You see, that really was a very leading question. It was really in a statement which the witness affirmed so it's important on this vital bit of evidence that the evidence all flows from the witness.

PN778

MR MEALLIN: Yes. So Ms Spencer, in terms of your response to 59 to 62 where does the responsibility for the mechanical aspect of TPM lie?---The mechanical aspect of TPM lies with maintenance.

PN779

In regard to your response to 79, has there been an expectation that team leaders will have email accounts and use Lotus Notes?---It is not an expectation but obviously it looks like in some cases they've been asked if they would like to, but it is not a requirement for them to have Lotus Notes and it is not mandatory for them to have Lotus Notes.

**** MICHELLE SIMONE SPENCER XN MR MEALLIN
PN780

And as the manager what is your policy in that regard to requests for email?---If an employee asks to have access to it we'd, you know, we've not denied them the access to it. We've allowed it, yes.

PN781

Okay. It terms of your response to Mr McDonald's point 88, that is where team leaders actually step on the line to cover shortages, what actually is the typical incidence of a team leader needing to step onto the line to cover shortages?---The first one is obviously the toilet relief breaks so if an operator goes off to use the facilities they would step in. They also would help out and in the case of if there's a high attendance issue on a particular day they will step in and help out in that respect. But the main point of it was to really to step in and relieve on short periods of time. Yes, there are instances where it has been longer.

PN782

Well, if you had a team leader that perhaps had to step in for a longer than usual period of time and that may preclude them from doing other aspects or responsibilities of their role such as updating the team boards - - -

PN783

MR GEORGIOU: Commissioner, this has just got to stop. A question is a question, not a statement.

PN784

MR MEALLIN: Yes, all right, yes.

PN785

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Meallin, I'll certainly permit to ask you about a range of contingent events or alternative events, but again, there can't be any editorial in the question.

PN786

MR MEALLIN: Yes.

PN787

THE COMMISSIONER: I think in fact that question was not and it didn't offend.

PN788

MR MEALLIN: Yes. I'm just sort of conscious of the fact that I realise questions have to be short and to the point but making sure that they're understood in the right context of how I'm asking it.

PN789

THE COMMISSIONER: Anyway, you can go through. The witness has got her statement there. She's very responsive to your questions so perhaps you could ask shorter questions and take smaller steps.

**** MICHELLE SIMONE SPENCER XN MR MEALLIN
PN790

MR MEALLIN: All right, okay.

PN791

THE COMMISSIONER: I mean, but bear in mind that her statement has been attested to so it forms part of the witness evidence.

PN792

MR MEALLIN: Certainly and I just want to make sure that any misconceptions and ambiguity from the statement are - - -

PN793

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, yes, there's no problem with that.

PN794

MR MEALLIN: Okay. Look, I might take you now, Ms Spencer, to the statement of Zachary Christofas and if you could perhaps just in reference to the computer data entry as responded in 8?---Okay.

PN795

What does that actually mean?---It means that I guess with the way that technology has moved forward, in a lot of cases we've moved from a manual form of recording data to a computerised form of recording data and basically this is in terms of, you know, we used to fill out sheets daily in terms of the number of scrap items of the particular item that we had. Now we're able to do that in a computer instead of having to write it on a sheet. I mean it's why technology is moving. My statement here is that really it's the change of technology and the way that we do things that has changed in that respect, but in terms of the types of data and that that's captured, we've always captured that sort of data. We even did that with leading hands.

PN796

Right, okay. And in terms of responding to 60 of Mr Christofas' statement, can you just explain exactly where the team leader's involvement is with the lock out?---Well, it's actually the responsibility of everybody to lock out a machine, so any person entering into a machine is required to lock it out to protect themselves, so do team leaders do it, absolutely. Do I do it, yes. Do team members do it, yes. It's a requirement by all if you enter into a machine that's energised and has potential to crush you or to hurt you, you absolutely you have to lock it out, otherwise you're going to end up with a serious injury.

PN797

Okay. And in terms of now the statement of Mr Grech in responding to 39, 41 in regards to the team leader boards, what is your understanding of the way the inputting has changed over the period of the last decade or so?---Well, we've always captured data and it's been for more than a decade in terms of, you know, quality data we've always captured the number of defects that we've had. As I said previously, you know, we used to write it on paper. Now we display it on the boards that it's more visual and the information is transferred to that, you know, whether it's on the SPQRC board, whether it's on the verification station, or whether it was on its predecessor on the Buy-out board.

**** MICHELLE SIMONE SPENCER XN MR MEALLIN
PN798

Okay. And Ms Spencer, just sort of in conclusion referring back to your attachment 3?---Mm.

PN799

You've explained the methodology of how the line up, line by line of each of the responsibilities was formulated?---Mm.

PN800

Is there anything else in that matrix that you want to explain that hasn't been explained?---Just really to state that as I said, I was quite involved in this preparation of this document and went through every single statement word by word and lined it up against the 1994 agreement. I also had a look at the types of jobs that were being performed at the time and whether they still would be required and that's why the document was really laid out into twofold in that the first part of the document were highlighted and then the specific items that go under each of them. It was around the understanding and the requirements of the team leader role and then we also highlighted the last table in the second page of that document really that the items which were not a requirement as part of the team leader role then formed this document.

PN801

And just to clarify an earlier point that you made, where it says Have Been Performing, do they have specific dates? Would they vary from item to item?
---They vary from area to area, they vary from date to dates and it was a general in terms of performing about knowledge of the specific areas. So, you know, in some cases it might have only been one area that was performing that particular task, but it was around making sure that we captured that and then captured the fact that it actually was not a requirement for those specific items to be part of the team leader role or responsibility.

PN802

If you could just confirm and I think just at a quick glance of this, there is none of the new items that wasn't correlated back to at least one of the original work unit leader responsibilities?---Correct, absolutely. Every single one of their items I believe fits within the 1994 agreement and within those 10 statements.

PN803

Okay, all right. Well, thanks, Ms Spencer. I have no further questions at this stage, Commissioner.

PN804

THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks, Mr Meallin. Well, Mr Georgiou, you'd rather not start your cross-examination, is that correct?

PN805

MR GEORGIOU: Unless you're going to be a fair amount of time, I don't think so.

**** MICHELLE SIMONE SPENCER XN MR MEALLIN
PN806

THE COMMISSIONER: No, I'm not going to give you a fair amount of time today. So it will be necessary then to come back. Ms Spencer, you're going to have to come back into the witness box on Wednesday, 7 November, which is otherwise known as next Wednesday?---Yes.

PN807

Between now and then you can speak to people and do normal things but you can't talk about your evidence?---Okay, I understand.

PN808

We'll adjourn now until 9.30 on Wednesday, 7 November.

<ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY, 7 NOVEMBER 2007 [3.21PM]

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #G1 AMWU SUBMISSIONS PN3
EXHIBIT #M1 GM HOLDEN SUBMISSIONS PN3
DANNY MCDONALD, AFFIRMED PN36
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GEORGIOU PN36
EXHIBIT #G2 STATEMENT OF DANNY MCDONALD PN40
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEALLIN PN119
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN292
ZACHARY CHRISTOFAS, SWORN PN296
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GEORGIOU PN296
EXHIBIT #G3 STATEMENT OF ZACHARY CHRISTOFAS PN300
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEALLIN PN365
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN514
CHRISTOPHER GRECH, SWORN PN516
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GEORGIOU PN516
EXHIBIT #G4 STATEMENT OF CHRISTOPHER GRECH PN520
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEALLIN PN563
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR GEORGIOU PN634
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN637
MICHELLE SIMONE SPENCER, SWORN PN647
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MEALLIN PN647
EXHIBIT #M2 STATEMENT OF MICHELLE SPENCER PN653