BP2007/4506, Transcript of Proceedings [2007] AIRCTrans 669 (11 December 2007)

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

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Workplace Relations Act 1996 17909-1

COMMISSIONER RAFFAELLI

BP2007/4506

s.451(1) - Application for order for protected action ballot to be held
Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association, The
and
Qantas Airways Limited
(BP2007/4506)

SYDNEY

12.41PM, WEDNESDAY, 28 NOVEMBER 2007

PN1

MR G NORRIS: I appear for and on behalf of the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association if it pleases the Commission and I have with me
MR W VASTA who is the assistant federal secretary.

PN2

MR D PERRY: I seek leave to appear for Qantas Airways Limited and with me is MR J MORLEY.

PN3

THE COMMISSIONER: Any objection to leave being granted, Mr Norris?

PN4

MR NORRIS: No, Commissioner.

PN5

THE COMMISSIONER: Leave is granted, Mr Perry. Yes, Mr Norris, it's your application.

PN6

MR NORRIS: Yes, Commissioner, I trust that the Commission has the application and the appropriate forms, the Bench papers and they would be a form R10, a form R11 and accompanying form R12 and accompanying that documentation is correspondence to the deputy industrial registrar of
26 November 2007 being the notice of giving of the authorisation of engaging industrial action and being that is a copy of a notice circulated by the ALAEA on 26 November to its members. It's headed, to all Qantas ALAEA members re: protected industrial action authorised and it's signed by the federal secretary of the association, Mr Steven Purvinas.

PN7

THE COMMISSIONER: Just wait a second. Yes.

PN8

MR NORRIS: The industrial action that is proposed as authorised by the federal executive and contained in the resolution of federal executive which is in attachment C of the form R11 attachments.

PN9

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN10

MR NORRIS: It goes to the nature of the nature of the industrial action proposed which is the putting in place of overtime bans, bans on ..... and the bans of higher duties and in addition where required stop work meetings will be held. The authority was given by the federal executive as per the statutory declaration behind attachment C of form R11. There was a quorum present on 15 October 2007. You will note that the resolution has the words:

PN11

Individually or in any combination as the federal secretary sees fit.

PN12

And I'm informed by the federal executive, Mr Purvinas and Mr Vasta that that was meant to mean that the federal secretary had the discretion to put in place the authorisation at such a time as the federal secretary sees fit. There's a clarification on that. The question to be put the members of the ALAEA is contained in form R11. It will be on your page 2 and the question being under - one question being:

PN13

Do you, for the purpose of advancing claims in the Qantas EBA, authorise the banning of overtime, higher duties, secondments and the conducting of stop work meetings?

PN14

It's a fairly unambiguous and very plain question to be asked. The coverage of the employees are AIEA members who are governed currently by the Licensed Aircraft Engineers Qantas Airways Limited Enterprise Agreement VII and who are proposing to make their new enterprise agreement with Qantas. The bargaining period was put in place in regard to this particular negotiation through EBA on 19 June 2007. The BP number for reference to the Commission is 2007/2970.

PN15

Commissioner, if I may clarify the sequence of events leading up to this. The Commission would be aware there have been other proceedings before the Commission as presently constituted in regard to other forms of actions which were subsequently - the application was subsequently dismissed on certain grounds. This application comes to you in very simple terms for the pursuing of higher wages. In regard to the claims that are made within the notice of bargaining period and the particulars therein attached and if I can take you to that which is an attachment to form R11 in A and B.

PN16

If I can refer you to attachment B, further particulars for the bargaining period for the notice, you will note that on page 2 of our application for - sorry, our notice of initiation of bargaining period, there commences a series of headings under the sub paragraph (c):

PN17

The matters that the initiating party proposes should be dealt with by a proposed collective agreement.

PN18

And you will note that the first two dot points are wage allowances increase and wages. So the action proposed is to further our claims in regard to the proposed making of a enterprise bargaining agreement. Commissioner, we do have the paperwork to meet the form of criteria as proposed under the relevant sections of the Act and I'd like to just make some preliminary remarks in regard to section 461 and the conditions that need to be met.

PN19

Commissioner, in that regard I might hand up to you a document which is called, ALAEA Qantas Airways Limited Chronology of Enterprise Bargaining Negotiations (EBA VIII) which may assist the Commission. I've already provided a copy to Mr Perry.

PN20

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Perry?

PN21

MR PERRY: I am happy for the document to be handed up to assist the Commission but we would want to be heard if the document was to be tendered as evidence at this stage. We've only just received it this afternoon and haven't had a proper opportunity to consider it but we are happy for it to be put forward on that basis.

PN22

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Okay. We will see where we go with it.

PN23

MR PERRY: I don't understand my friend to be tendering the document.

PN24

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN25

MR NORRIS: We intend to call some brief evidence from Mr Vasta and on hearing his evidence it will be appropriate to tender that document. He would be the appropriate person to attest to the enclosures and the sequence of events, Commissioner. I hand it up to assist the Commission.

PN26

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN27

MR NORRIS: They are my opening remarks at this point in time. That does raise, Commissioner a matter of process in the way the matter should proceed today. I'm not sure whether - what Qantas's objections are and whether there is any jurisdictional objection or not to the matters at hand and we would be proposing that we would give our outline of submissions. We'd heard from Qantas in regard to their concerns and then we'd be calling Mr Vasta to give evidence in regard to the conditions to be met under 461 ..... as mentioned in that regard.

PN28

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Perry, the documents at least on their face seem as they comply with the requirements and then 461(1) requires certain issues. I don't think 461(1)(c) has been raised but Qantas has in the past made some objections in relation to (1)(a) or (b) or prohibitive content but things may have changed since then. What's the view of Qantas as far as the application - - -

PN29

MR PERRY: I can be fairly short, Commissioner.

PN30

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN31

MR PERRY: We don't wish to make any submissions in relation to the application or the order in the form which has been proposed. The company is committed to keeping its aircraft fully operational and providing the best possible service it can to the flying public. We therefore reserve all of our rights in relation to any industrial or other action that might be taken by the union or its members but beyond that there is nothing further we wish to say to the Commission today.

PN32

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Yes, thank you. In those circumstances,
Mr Norris, do we still need to hear from Mr Vasta or are you saying - I mean, I have to be satisfied of 461(1) (a) (b) and (c) over and above other issues which I think you've satisfied me with your paper work. I can assume this is not a case of pattern bargaining but do you want to go beyond bar table assertions or do you need Mr Vasta to say that you have been genuinely bargaining et cetera.

PN33

MR NORRIS: We remain in your hands but given that there appears to be no objection or protestation from Qantas, we obviously would assert that based on the chronology there is sufficient evidence before the Commission that the parties have been genuinely trying to reach agreement. On the ALAEAs behalf I can submit to the Commission that the ALAEA intends to keep trying to reach agreement and on that basis we believe we meet the test in (a) and (b). In regard to (c) there is no issue of pattern bargaining.

PN34

THE COMMISSIONER: Did you and since - and your assuring me that the issues that your promoting and continuing which is the wages issues and allowances, that they are matters that you've in recent times, recent weeks, have since the last time that we were together, that they are matters that have been the subject of ongoing negotiations?

PN35

MR NORRIS: Yes. Commissioner, if you could go to the chronology.

PN36

THE COMMISSIONER: It's not evidence but I guess for my - it saves us.

PN37

MR NORRIS: If I could take you to item 52. Item 52 is dated 28 August and it notes the ALAEA notice was sent to Qantas ALAEA members ..... Now that was a previous matter that was before the Commission.

PN38

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN39

MR NORRIS: So from that date the parties have met on at least the
11 September, 25 September, 2007.

PN40

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN41

MR NORRIS: In all of those meetings the issue of wages and allowances and the position of pay structure have been discussed. Further to that there are various communications where there have been issues on 28 September being notices of the ALAEA and also the publications about Qantas which are attached to the chronology. They mention the negotiations for wages. On 24 October 2007 there was a meeting with the sub group of the negotiating committee to particularly discuss remuneration issues.

PN42

If I could take you to the attachments to the back of that chronology there is a document which is a photocopy of a power point presentation which is an ALAEA presentation that was presented to the company and that's entitled, Remuneration Increases, which clearly outlines the ALAEA's claims in regard to wages and allowance and what was discussed both at the Tullamarine meeting and the subsequent meetings of the EBA negotiating committee.

PN43

Now, Commissioner, it culminated in the ALAEA on the ALAEA federal secretary writing to the CEO of Qantas on the 14th, I think it was November, sorry, 14 November requesting that Qantas make an offer to the ALAEA in regard to the EBA. That was forthcoming in the next meetings with Qantas on
12 November and then following that on 16 November Qantas sent to the ALAEA without prejudice, sorry, on 14 November without prejudice a document which was then discussed by Qantas with the employees in general regarding the wages allowances, so that's a significant negotiation in regard to wages allowance previously and they continue at this point.

PN44

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you, Mr Norris. As I indicated earlier the Commission is satisfied that the application, the form of the application contains matters that satisfy the requirements of the Act and then in particular because it has been a matter of controversy in the past as to the provisions of or the requirements of section 461, the Commission is satisfied that, first of all it notes that there is no pursuit as was indicated some time ago. No pursuit of a prohibited matter or of matters that might be said to not be strictly industrial and they are my words not anybody else's and that the pursuit of matters is now being focused on what we might call monetary matters.

PN45

It is clear that during the bargaining period but in particular in more recent times the applicant has genuinely tried to reach agreement with Qantas and is still trying to reach agreement with Qantas. I need not go to - you've assisted me by providing me with those documents but because they are challenged I don't think we need to specifically rely on it but in the absence of anything to the contrary I accept your submissions, Mr Norris. And as a consequence the Commission in the absence of problems with - of the 461(1) type, the Commission must grant the application and I propose to do so.

PN46

I have circulated certain draft orders. The first one which I will make today will be appointing to the Australian Electoral Commission as the authorised ballot agent. The second order is the actual, the more substantial item with a range of, with a number of things which is the timetable for the provision of information or the list to the authorised ballot agent, the timetable for the ballot and the question to be put. Is there any submissions by either of you as to any changes that ought be made to that?

PN47

MR NORRIS: We'd take the orders as proposed.

PN48

MR PERRY: No submissions for the company, Commissioner.

PN49

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well, then as a result the order, the drafts as circulated will be made. The first one, as I said, appointing the ballot agent and the second one setting out a more substantial process for the conduct of the ballot. Those orders will issue shortly and on that basis these proceedings are now adjourned. Thank you.

<ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [12.59PM]