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Fair Work Commission Transcripts |
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Fair Work Act 2009 1048985-1
COMMISSIONER SPENCER
C2013/2872
s.739 - Application to deal with a dispute
Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union
and
BHP Coal Pty Ltd
(C2013/2872)
BMA Enterprise Agreement 2012
(ODN AG2012/11935)
[AE897825 Print PR530716]
Mackay District Courthouse
9.29AM, WEDNESDAY, 9 OCTOBER 2013
PN893
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
PN894
MR NEIL: If the commission pleases, we thought we'd begin, if this suited you, Commissioner, by tendering a compact disc which contains a video called Life of a Mine and then playing an extract from that video - - -
PN895
THE COMMISSIONER: Right.
PN896
MR NEIL: - - - on this screen. We are able to do so, I am told, remotely, so it would simply then be a matter of first tendering the compact disc and then inviting you, Commissioner, to view the screen.
PN897
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Very good. Mr Slevin, you - - -
PN898
MR SLEVIN: I'm agreeable.
PN899
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
PN900
MR NEIL: I tender the disc.
PN901
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
PN902
MR NEIL: What we're going to show is really the - - -
PN903
THE COMMISSIONER: You've seen it, Mr Slevin, haven't you?
PN904
MR SLEVIN: I haven't seen all of it. Well, I'm not sure. I've seen some things that have sort of come in over the last few days.
PN905
THE COMMISSIONER: Not sure which version this is?
PN906
MR SLEVIN: Yes, that's right.
PN907
MR NEIL: My learned friend has it and we can show - - -
PN908
MR SLEVIN: Yes, all right.
PN909
MR NEIL: We won't see the whole of it - - -
PN910
THE COMMISSIONER: All right.
PN911
MR NEIL: - - - but the essential features of it we're now going to show.
PN912
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. We'll mark the CD, the video Life of a Mine, as exhibit 13 in the proceedings.
EXHIBIT #13 CD ENTITLED LIFE OF A MINE
MR NEIL: The video is about 10 minutes in length and we're going to start it at about the one minute 25 seconds mark.
PN914
THE COMMISSIONER: All right.
PN915
MR NEIL: What the video shows, Commissioner, is essentially the - it depicts diagrammatically and visually some of the operations that you have heard about in the course of the evidence and we'll hear about again today.
PN916
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Very good. Thank you.
PN917
CD PLAYED
PN918
MR NEIL: We'll just there, please, Commissioner. What follows does not relate to any aspect of the evidence.
PN919
THE COMMISSIONER: All right, thank you.
PN920
MR NEIL: What we've shown you we think covers the operations that you have been hearing about so far and we'll hear about today.
PN921
THE COMMISSIONER: Right.
PN922
MR NEIL: That's looking into the audio-visual material. Our next witness Mr Kinderis has made a statement. We had proposed, with your leave, Commissioner, first to ask him to show and ask him to explain some material that is used to track the mining operations of the kind that you saw in the last of the operations depicted in the video - - -
PN923
THE COMMISSIONER: Very well.
PN924
MR NEIL: - - - taking as the starting point the data produced by the satellite tracking device. It will explain to you how dispatchers employed at the mines track in real time the progress of the plant and equipment - the progress and operations of the plant and equipment that you have been hearing about in the evidence.
PN925
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, directly relevant to the end of that shift.
PN926
MR NEIL: Well, what it shows - - -
PN927
THE COMMISSIONER: For my purposes.
PN928
MR NEIL: Yes. The tracking exercise is undertaken - - -
PN929
THE COMMISSIONER: The whole time.
PN930
MR NEIL: - - - continually.
PN931
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN932
MR NEIL: The reason why we're tendering, if I can take a moment to explain its significance in our case - - -
PN933
THE COMMISSIONER: Are you content with that, Mr Slevin?
PN934
MR SLEVIN: I am.
PN935
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
PN936
MR NEIL: The reason why we're showing it and relying on other material of a like kind is to show that the respondent has available to it entirely accurate real-time data as to the movement and location of all of the plant and equipment with which this dispute is concerned. Those dispatchers use that real-time data to control, relevantly, the time of the last loads for operations of that kind pertaining to the end of the shift.
PN937
So as to disclose our hand entirely, what we want to do, obviously enough, is to seek to persuade the commission that the evidence that we have tendered deriving from that data provides the most accurate means of determining how the operations of particularly truck drivers are controlled at the end of the shift - just how long it takes to perform the operations that you've been hearing about. That's our purpose in - - -
PN938
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. So this takes us up to a certain point, doesn't it?
PN939
MR NEIL: Yes. For example, yesterday you heard a deal of evidence from some of the applicant's witnesses about how long it takes to complete particular circuits, and they drew some conclusions, you will recall, about when it was drivers might complete their work if they were the carrier of the last load.
PN940
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN941
MR NEIL: We want to be able to say, well, that material should not be preferred to the objective data that we have sought to tender, which shows that the circuit times are much less and it takes less time for drivers to complete the tasks in question. That's a very simple explanation of what we want to do with this material.
PN942
THE COMMISSIONER: Right.
PN943
MR NEIL: But the first step is to demonstrate what the material is - - -
PN944
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN945
MR NEIL: - - - and to satisfy you, we hope, that it is the best objective source of information of that kind.
PN946
THE COMMISSIONER: All right.
PN947
MR NEIL: So that's why we want to have Mr Kinderis explain some of the data. It's also - when one understands it - it's a little delphic to begin with, at first sight, but when one understands it, it's a good way to understand how a circuit fits together.
PN948
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. Thank you.
PN949
MR NEIL: Then I propose to ask for some leave to just ask some short supplementary questions of Mr Kinderis, if I may.
PN950
THE COMMISSIONER: All right.
PN951
MR NEIL: So, if it's convenient, may I begin by calling Mr Kinderis now.
PN952
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you.
PN953
THE ASSOCIATE: Please state your full name and address.
PN954
MR KINDERIS: Justin Paul Kinderis, (address supplied).
<JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS, AFFIRMED [9.44AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR NEIL [9.44AM]
MR NEIL: Mr Kinderis, could you please state your full name?---Yes, Justin Paul Kinderis.
PN956
What is your business address?---It's Goonyella Riverside Mine, Moranbah.
PN957
What is your present occupation?---Superintendent coalmining operations.
PN958
Have you made two statements in connection with these proceedings, one on 20 September 2013 and the other on 2 October 2013?---That's correct.
PN959
Do you have copies of each of those statements with you in the witness box?
---Yes, I do.
PN960
Could I just ask, Commissioner, you to note one incidental amendment to the first of those statements, if you would be good enough to go to tab 3, attachment JPK3.
PN961
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN962
MR NEIL: That attachment has only 25 pages, not 29 pages as we've indicated on the cover sheet.
PN963
THE COMMISSIONER: All right.
PN964
MR NEIL: We didn't want you to think that four pages had gone missing.
PN965
Mr Kinderis, insofar as both of those statements contain matters of fact, are those facts true to the best of your knowledge and belief?---Yes, I believe so.
PN966
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
Insofar as each of those statements contain matters of opinion, are they your opinions?---Yes, they are.
PN967
I tender each of those statements.
PN968
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. We'll mark the initial statement of Mr Justin Kinderis as exhibit 14 in the proceedings and the further statement as exhibit 15, thank you.
EXHIBIT #14 STATEMENT OF JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS
EXHIBIT #15 FURTHER STATEMENT OF JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS
MR NEIL: Commissioner, if I could just have a moment, we'll start the audio-visual display. In a triumph of hope over experience, I've been equipped with a - - -
PN970
THE COMMISSIONER: The record - oh, you're taking the control?
PN971
MR NEIL: Yes, I've been equipped with - - -
PN972
THE COMMISSIONER: I felt far more comfortable - - -
PN973
MR NEIL: - - - not the controls but a little pointer.
PN974
THE COMMISSIONER: - - - with Ms Gillies, I have to say, Mr Neil.
PN975
MR NEIL: Ms Gillies is the driver.
PN976
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. She's the back-up.
PN977
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
MR NEIL: If, Commissioner, for the moment you would be - could I just draw attention to the little red dot, which from time to time I'll use to point to various features to explain it.
PN978
THE COMMISSIONER: All right.
PN979
MR NEIL: First of all, Mr Kinderis, would you explain what we're now seeing on the screen?---Yes, this is a part of the dispatch system that the dispatcher uses to build the graphics around a generic-type haul route, which can be altered as the machinery progresses. It also highlights particular GPS beacons, call points, light vehicle roads and crib huts and/or go lines.
PN980
Very well. Could I just draw attention to some of those features. First of all, if one looks at the points I'm now indicating, one
sees a dot surrounded by a circle?
---Yes.
PN981
What are those features?---Yes, that would be a GPS beacon or call point at a dump location.
PN982
Is the way in which that works, if I can lease on this, Commissioner, that the call station detects the passage of a vehicle as that
vehicle passes near the call station?
---Yes, that's correct.
PN983
THE COMMISSIONER: Which vehicle?---It can be - it'll be, yes, rear dump or - - -
PN984
A specific vehicle?---Yes, numerous vehicles.
PN985
All right?---So specifically a vehicle that's on the haul route that the dispatcher is monitoring.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
PN986
All right?---They monitor numerous rear dumps in the system.
PN987
MR NEIL: In fact, can we see a number of vehicles depicted on this screen?
---Yes, we can.
PN988
For example, there?---Yes, you can see - - -
PN989
And there? This collection here that you can see on the screen that I'm indicating - what's that depict?---That's actually an operation that's occurring. It's a pre-strip type operation, where there's an excavator.
PN990
Can you indicate - is that the excavator?---Yes, the purplish-coloured one is an excavator. There's a wheel dozer there in blue and three others are rear dumps.
PN991
Is it the case that each piece of plant that you've identified is depicted on the screen - on the dispatcher's screen - by distinctive reference?---Yes, that's correct.
PN992
Commissioner, what we're going to do in a moment, once Mr Kinderis has explained what it is you're now seeing, is play an accelerated series of screen shots from the dispatcher's screen - - -
PN993
THE COMMISSIONER: Right.
PN994
MR NEIL: - - - that will enable you to trace the passage of a particular truck.
PN995
The truck is on this screen in this area. Is that correct? You'll have to say - - -?
---Yes, correct.
PN996
And we're going to follow a truck which is distinguished by what reference number?
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
PN997
THE COMMISSIONER: And these are the screen shots they get. It's refreshed, I think in your statement you say every 30 seconds. Is that right? It's not a continuous feed? It's a - - -?---Yes. This system is in near real-time. It records in near real-time. But what it does is it gives the system the ability to build the data for the dispatcher to actually calculate real-time, which the system will provide them with in another display.
PN998
MR NEIL: The box that I'm now pointing to there that's a box where real-time data is displayed?---That's - yes, that's - - -
PN999
Numerically rather than graphically?---Correct.
PN1000
THE COMMISSIONER: I can't see where you're pointing to. Where are you pointing to there?
PN1001
MR NEIL: It's the light-coloured box. The pointer doesn't really show up in the lighter material.
PN1002
THE COMMISSIONER: No. Right.
PN1003
MR NEIL: On the left-hand side of the screen.
PN1004
THE COMMISSIONER: I see. Thank you?---The large box.
PN1005
MR NEIL: That's a box that displays real-time data numerically rather than graphically. Is that correct?---That's correct.
PN1006
THE COMMISSIONER: And is that for a vehicle, or is that for the whole screen shot?---No. That's basically the whole screen shot. It's calculating times.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
PN1007
Right?---It's got a real-time down the bottom of the screen, above the dun button there.
PN1008
All of this data is collected by use of the satellite that you saw depicted in the video; a GPS system and the weigh stations - the
call stations. Is that correct?
---Yes, that's correct.
PN1009
We're going to follow a particular truck which in this screen shot is in this area. Could you just identify that truck?---You might need to get up and stand next to the screen in order to see the number. What's the distinctive number?---That's RD74, I believe.
PN1010
RD74?---74, yes.
PN1011
And that's a distinctive number which attaches to that particular truck. Correct?
---That's correct.
PN1012
Can I just ask you to - just pointing to a feature at the top left-hand side of the screen, what is that feature depicting?---That feature there is the Riverside go line - the start point. That's the rectangular box, if that's the one you're talking about.
PN1013
The lines that one sees that I'm following now with the pointer, what do they depict?---Yes, the green lines are haul routes or haul roads.
PN1014
CD PLAYED
PN1015
This feature down at the bottom middle of the screen, what's that?---That again is a GPS beacon point or a dump location. It could also be a crib hut, if it's yellow.
PN1016
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
One feature of this particular route, or route, is that the crib hut for that route is actually at the go line?---Yes, it is. It's just to the left of the go line. It's a permanent crib hut set up. It's been there for the life of that mine, so it doesn't have a call point around it.
PN1017
The reason why the crib hut for the route that we are seeing here depicted is at the go line is because the operation is relatively
close to the go line. Is that right?
---Yes. Generally, most of the coalmining's operation goes up either way from the crib hut.
PN1018
In the case of some operations which are more remote from the go line, the routes attached to those operations have separate crib huts. Is that correct?---In coalmining we don't generally have another crib hut, as such. We may have a designated park-up area.
PN1019
I'll just once again remind - can you just point to RD74, please. That's just at the top there, Commissioner.
PN1020
RD74, in this screen shot, is right next to what sort of plant?---The blue one is wheel dozer 12. It's a wheel-type tractor. And the purple is loading in at excavator 47.
PN1021
Using your experience, what is happening at this point in time so far as RD74 is concerned?---RD74 should be getting loaded by excavator 47.
PN1022
What we'll do is play the series of screen shots, if we may, Commissioner, in an accelerated form, so that it has a rather more - has the appearance of an animation.
PN1023
Could you just identify the time, please?---I think it says about 5.45 am.
PN1024
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
Thank you. So we're following - so where is RD74?---RD74 is being loaded at this point in time.
PN1025
Now - - -?---(indistinct)
PN1026
Commissioner, there's RD74, moving towards this area.
PN1027
RD74 is loaded at this point, of course. Correct?---Yes, that's correct. It's loaded, going to the dump location.
PN1028
And this is the dump location?---Correct.
PN1029
Within the dump zone the dumping point that is used at any particular time changes from time to time. Is that correct?---Yes, that's correct. The dispatcher has the ability to move that as the dumps and faces advance.
PN1030
Now RD74 is moving away from the dump area, unloaded, of course, and heading back where?---He's going back to the loading area for another load, one would assume.
PN1031
So once it arrives there, that's a completed circuit. Correct?---Yes, that would be correct.
PN1032
THE COMMISSIONER: So is that real-time that we're - - -?---I think that's actually sped up.
PN1033
MR NEIL: It's accelerated.
PN1034
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1035
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
MR NEIL: It's accelerated, but the dispatcher would see it in real-time.
PN1036
THE COMMISSIONER: So what's the distance there, do you think, in kilometres or travel time, just so that - - -?---It's probably about - it might be four minutes travel time to the dump, a minute to dump the load, and probably three or four minutes back to the loading unit, in that particular operation.
PN1037
MR NEIL: And the same calculation could be made for every operation. Is that correct?---Yeah, that is correct.
PN1038
In due course - that's the end of that display. If I could just invite you - - -
PN1039
THE COMMISSIONER: Can I just ask you, with that - - -
PN1040
MR NEIL: We might continue, I'm sorry.
PN1041
THE COMMISSIONER: So if that was a last-load scenario, at the end of the shift, that would continue, am I correct in saying, up - where's the - - -
PN1042
MR NEIL: We're going to depict that.
PN1043
THE COMMISSIONER: You're going to go to that?
PN1044
MR NEIL: Yes.
PN1045
THE COMMISSIONER: I'll leave you - - -
PN1046
MR NEIL: Can you just point to RD74, where it is at the moment - and that's on its way. So it's past the turn-off for the dump, and it's now on its way back to the crib area or the designated parking area. Is that correct?---Yes, that's correct.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
PN1047
And we'll just follow that as it does.
PN1048
CD PLAYED
PN1049
MR NEIL: And now it's back at the parking-up area.
PN1050
THE COMMISSIONER: I know you've covered a number of these scenarios in your evidence, but just so I can marry up what I'm seeing there - and you might be going to cover this, Mr Neil. I'm just wanting some evidence in relation to that: what would happen from there with the driver in terms of doing the clean. What time, effectively, they might leave the site to there. Do they get onto a bus, or what is the actual practical scenario for that particular scenario that I'm seeing, and if you're going to cover this, Mr Neil, I'll refrain.
PN1051
MR NEIL: It's covered in the material.
PN1052
THE COMMISSIONER: I know it's covered in the material.
PN1053
MR NEIL: If you wish to hear - - -
PN1054
THE COMMISSIONER: I just want to marry it up with what I'm - yes.
PN1055
MR NEIL: - - - that material now, this would be a good time to do it.
PN1056
THE COMMISSIONER: I think it's helpful seeing the schematic and mark that?
---Yeah, righto, Commissioner. What happened there was, in that particular instance, the RD74 went back to the loading area, but
the truck didn't actually get towed. It actually - - -
PN1057
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
Because I'm assuming - - -?---But it went back empty.
PN1058
I'm assuming they were given the direction - is that right? - "Last load", did that and then - is that right?---The dispatcher would have sent a park-up message that would have said "Park up" and "DRV go line", and that operator would have pressed "yes". At that point in time he's basically just left. I believe he probably should have got a load, but he went back to the go line, he's parked up. I can only assume the guy is going to clean his cab out, clean his windows for the oncoming operator. He will depart his truck and he'll be free to leave the mine site; sign off and leave.
PN1059
So when you say he probably could have done another load there, is there a number of variables taken into account? Could that driver
have said, "Look, there needs to be a longer clean done," or - I'm just interested to know the variables?
---Just looking at what is occurring, there was a wheel dozer at the face over there, wheel dozer 12. He actually left the face,
but at the time that wheel dozer could have been cleaned at the face. He's gone back. The operator of the machine basically said,
"Look, we don't have enough time," and the machine is cleaning; you know, "You can head back to the go line."
That guy is walking off the bench, marking his machine up and he's being picked up in this particular instance.
PN1060
Can the operator see from that shot if the next crew are there? No?---No.
PN1061
Are they advised?---No.
PN1062
No?---No. The dispatcher will give that directive as far as where they would like them to park up and what to do with their loads.
PN1063
MR NEIL: There's a detailed written description of what you've said, Commissioner.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
PN1064
THE COMMISSIONER: In the evidence.
PN1065
MR NEIL: In paragraph 14 of the statement of 2 October.
PN1066
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. I've read all that. I just wanted to marry it with the actual diagram.
PN1067
MR NEIL: And that also gives you a form that is derived from the screenshot but is a little easier to read; the times at which the various operations are being performed.
PN1068
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much.
PN1069
MR NEIL: What I should do is just ask you - and I'll just remind you, Commissioner, that what you have seen on the screen is depicted on - - -
PN1070
THE COMMISSIONER: That's the same.
PN1071
MR NEIL: - - - a compact disc, or a DVD I suppose I should call it, which is attached to Mr Kinderis's second statement.
PN1072
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Shall we tender that?
PN1073
MR NEIL: If you wish to tender it separately - - -
PN1074
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, if it's part of the - I might - - -
PN1075
MR NEIL: It's part of the statement above it.
PN1076
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, it's part of the statement. We'll leave it there. There's a screenshot too in there, isn't there? I just wanted to find it.
PN1077
MR NEIL: Yes. What I wanted to take you to now, if I might, is now go to a second matter.
PN1078
THE COMMISSIONER: That JPK1 - - -
PN1079
MR NEIL: What you've just seen is JPK4.
PN1080
THE COMMISSIONER: Right.
PN1081
MR NEIL: I just wanted to call up some screenshots.
PN1082
THE COMMISSIONER: So the CD is JPK4.
PN1083
MR NEIL: That's correct.
PN1084
THE COMMISSIONER: And the screenshot of that is JPK1. Am I correct in saying that?
PN1085
MR NEIL: The screenshot is a little different and I'm now going to throw it up if I can, and you can see that.
PN1086
THE COMMISSIONER: Okay, good. All right.
PN1087
MR NEIL: What we are throwing up is a large copy of JPK3, and could you just explain what we are now seeing?---Yes. That's the coalmining park-up utility that the dispatchers bring up when they're at end of shift, and what it does is, that utility actually gives the dispatcher a time and a location where a rear dump should be and where it should be in its route, where it should be headed back to basically, and the dispatcher can make a pretty well-informed decision as to where to park that particular rear dump at the end of shift, and the dispatcher will then assign that truck a park-up and send that message through to the appropriate rear dump. The rear dump operator then either presses "yes" or "no", depending on the circumstances or the variables that may be occurring at the time.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
PN1088
So in effect the dispatcher sends a direction to the operator. Correct?---Correct.
PN1089
And you indicated that the operator could select "yes" or "no" in response to that direction?---That's correct.
PN1090
What consideration, so far as you are concerned, might properly lead an operator to decline a direction given by a dispatcher?---Look, there could be - in coalmining there may be rocks on the ROM that might stop that truck from dumping with no clean-up machine there, so the operator is basically visualling that and saying, "No," you know, and they will have a conversation around, "I should park on the stockpile," or, "I should dump my load on the stockpile and I'll come back," or the dispatcher may say, "No, the wheel dozer is on its way. I want you to dump that load in the ROM and then come back." They will have that discussion. There could be other variables I guess. It could be wet, could be dust, could be a couple of other things. But generally the guys will comply.
PN1091
So the capacity of the operator to decline an instruction given by the dispatcher is the means by which the operator's observations in the field are factored into the dispatcher's decisions - - -?---Yes, correct.
PN1092
- - - about what the operator should be otherwise doing?---Yes, that's correct.
PN1093
THE COMMISSIONER: So if they see rocks or something on the road, they can decline and feed that information back?---Yes. They will be able to, yes, give the dispatcher what's actually happening out there.
PN1094
MR NEIL: That's an extreme example; rocks on the road, for example. What other field observations might properly lead an operator to decline or modify a direction made by a dispatcher?---Look, if there was a truck broken down or something on the road, that he was going to get held up or whatever, and he decides that, you know, there wasn't going to be enough time for him to go and get a load because he was going to be hindered on the way back, he would communicate that to the dispatcher as well.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
PN1095
THE COMMISSIONER: On the two-way?---Yes, absolutely.
PN1096
MR NEIL: What about driving conditions?---As far as?
PN1097
Visibility or matters of that kind?---Yes, there could be speed restrictions in place. Those sort of things, they're all part and parcel of the park-up process.
PN1098
I must say, if I can interpose this observation, Commissioner, we hadn't proposed to invite you to look at this particular data in detail. We're really tendering it as an example of the sort of real-time data that is available.
PN1099
THE COMMISSIONER: All right.
PN1100
What does the "late" mean though, all those "lates"?---"Late". That's where a machine is generally - it should be at its call point and for some reason there's been a lapse and it might be a minute over, and the system will identify that the truck is late to get to its marked location.
PN1101
So there might be muddy roads or something there on that particular day?---Yes, could be. That certainly could occur.
PN1102
MR NEIL: And this can be updated by the dispatcher, can't it, so that the dispatcher is factoring in information that becomes available about conditions in the field and matters of that kind?---Yes, that's correct.
PN1103
I wonder if I could just - might turn that off - ask you to look at one of the attachments to your first statement, please, your statement of 20 September. Could you go to JPK2, which should be the second tab of a tabbed version. Just go to the first page and fold that out, and could you just please tell the Commissioner what it is we are now looking at?---Basically they're haul routes measured by the system and it's the best path summary, basically times loaded, unloaded and round trip, and the system calculates the times based on the GPS information.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
PN1104
As one looks at each of these rectangles, you can see they've each got a title. The first on the top left-hand side of the first page is entitled Ramp 32 to ROM 1. Do you see that?---Yes, I see that.
PN1105
Is that the title or the name that designates a particular circuit?---Yes, that would be a haul route or a circuit, the rear dumps carting coal from ramp 32 to dumping ROM 1.
PN1106
So as one turns the pages one sees depicted individual routes or circuits. Correct?---Yes, that's correct.
PN1107
I just want to take you to the box that one can see at each of the circuits, which is headed Best Path Summary. Do you see that? So just take the first page, top left-hand corner, Ramp 32 to ROM 1. Do you have that?---Yes.
PN1108
Then do you see there's a box entitled Best Path Summary?---Yes, I can see it.
PN1109
Just before we work down the list, could you tell me what's the source of the information depicted in the best path summary?---GPS data.
PN1110
Just working down the list, distance 6343. What does that refer to?---That would refer to the round trip - - -
PN1111
Expressed in?---Kilometres. Metres, sorry.
PN1112
THE COMMISSIONER: Six kilometres?---Six kilometres, yes.
PN1113
MR NEIL: Then average grade?---Yes, that's the percentage of the ramp. I guess it takes an overall variable from a 10 per cent ramp to a flat road and calculates the overall.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
PN1114
Is the grade something that is important to know because it affects the driving conditions and the speed at which the route can be negotiated?---That's correct.
PN1115
Then you see a section heading Going Haul Times. Do you see that?---Yes.
PN1116
What's a going haul?---That would be going from the loading unit to the dump location.
PN1117
THE COMMISSIONER: So it's a loaded truck?---A loaded truck, correct.
PN1118
MR NEIL: Interestingly, underneath there are two entries, one for empty and one for loaded. Then there are some times that appear against each of those. What do they refer to?---I can't define the loaded part of that.
PN1119
One looks at it and sees that it's the time at which - is it the time which the going haul is negotiated on the best path?---I would say that would be the best time.
PN1120
Then in what circumstances might a truck negotiate a going haul empty?---That would be on a return route, empty after a load has been dumped.
PN1121
Underneath that one it says "returning haul times". Do you see that?---Yes.
PN1122
What's a returning haul?---Returning haul I would assume is returning from the dump location.
PN1123
Then one sees underneath the heading Round Trip Haul Times various permutations: going loaded and returning empty, and going empty and returning loaded?---I'm assuming that's best possible time.
PN1124
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
THE COMMISSIONER: They're just the additions of those two, aren't they?
---Sorry, Commissioner?
PN1125
Are they the additions of those two? They seem to add up.
PN1126
MR NEIL: If one does the calculation, one can see that it's the addition of each of the two permutations.
PN1127
THE COMMISSIONER: So this is all used to get your average then?---Yes, that's how the system would average it out to give you real-time data.
PN1128
MR NEIL: And one sees that data for each of the routes there depicted. Is that correct?---Yes, that's correct.
PN1129
If it please the Commission, that's what I wanted - - -
PN1130
THE COMMISSIONER: So assuming from that, that takes the number of trips and it's giving the outside parameters of the times and coming up with the average?---That would be how the system would be calculated.
PN1131
So in terms of the relevance for me, looking perhaps at the last load, that's giving an average round trip for the conditions of the road and the haul at that particular time?---Pretty much. It will update because also the graphics may also recede or increase as the face moves the equipment and a dispatcher will update that system as that occurs.
PN1132
So for the round trip haul time on average it's taking about 34 minutes. That's when it's coming loaded and returning empty, so you're assuming on the last load it's going empty, collecting, returning loaded, dumping. So it's two of those really. Is that correct?---It may get a load, dump, then go and park up.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
PN1133
So if that's the case, it's going empty, returning loaded and then travelling the distance, whatever the extra distance is, onto the park-up. So on that scenario it would be 26 minutes plus whatever it takes to go from the - on average, whatever it takes to go from the dump area through to the park-up. Am I interpreting that correctly?---No, I don't think so.
PN1134
MR NEIL: May I assist?
PN1135
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1136
MR NEIL: Suppose it's a last load, and let's - may I ask you to assume, for the purpose of this illustration, that the truck is undertaking the going haul loaded, so that it's - - -?---If it was going loaded to dump location - - -
PN1137
Just concentrating on that first frame, ramp 32 to ROM 1, on the assumption that the truck is undertaking the going haul loaded, could you - it's the last load?---So going, it's saying it's a 20-minute cycle. Correct?
PN1138
So that's 20 minutes for that truck to go from ramp 32 to ROM 1?---Yes.
PN1139
And on the assumption that I asked you to make, that truck would then dump the load at ROM 1. Correct?---Correct.
PN1140
And then on the next assumption I've asked you to make, that being it's the last load for that truck, what does the truck then do?---If it was the last truck it would then either go to a designated park-up or - yeah, it would go to a designated park-up. That's what the dispatcher's requisition was.
PN1141
So that if one wanted to know the total time that it would take that truck to go from ramp 32 loaded to ROM 1, dump its load and then proceed from ROM 1 empty to the designated parking area, one would need to add to the 20 minutes 27 seconds for the going haul time, the time that it would take the truck to drive empty from ROM 1 to the designated parking area?---That would be correct.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
PN1142
And that latter figure is not shown on this diagram?---No.
PN1143
THE COMMISSIONER: So that 20 minutes 27 that you're referring to is the haul time going loaded, dumping and - am I to understand then the round trip haul time is it going back to then get another load - not completing that. Am I interpreting that correctly, those figures down at the bottom. Mr Neil, you're referring to the 20:27?
PN1144
MR NEIL: Yes. So on the assumption that it's a last load - - -
PN1145
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1146
MR NEIL: - - - if I could just - - -
PN1147
THE COMMISSIONER: I understand.
PN1148
MR NEIL: - - - say this observation: the time that it would take the truck to go from ramp 32 to ROM 1 to the designated parking area would be the sum of the loaded going haul time, which is 20 minutes and 27 seconds - that's from shovel to dump - to which would need to be added the time that it would take the empty truck to go from ROM 1 to the designated parking area. If it was not that truck's last load and it was undertaking - - -
PN1149
THE COMMISSIONER: It'd head back.
PN1150
MR NEIL: - - - a circuit, then the sum of the - the total time that it would take the truck to complete that circuit on the day which is here depicted is the round trip haul time - - -
PN1151
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
THE COMMISSIONER: Good, okay.
PN1152
MR NEIL: - - - for going loaded, returning here.
PN1153
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. What we don't have is - and I'm assuming you know this, Mr Kinderis - that the summary that Mr Neil put to you in terms of the last load, there's an additional time added to that 20:27 to go onto the park-up area there. On the schematic that we've been shown this is six kilometres, as I understand it - - -
PN1154
MR NEIL: That's for the whole circuit.
PN1155
THE COMMISSIONER: That's for the whole circuit, isn't it?
PN1156
MR NEIL: Yes.
PN1157
THE COMMISSIONER: So going to - say it's a last load, empty, and it's loaded and it dumps, that's not six kilometres, is it?---No.
PN1158
The whole is six kilometres?---The whole circuit.
PN1159
So do you know what the circuit would be from - what I'm trying to ascertain is, what is the time after dumping to go into park-up?---Yes. Look, I'd only be speaking from my opinion, not from real - - -
PN1160
Because it's a different permutation for every particular - for every dump zone to every park-up, I assuming?---Yes, that's right. So it could be somewhere from five minutes to 12 minutes, depending on where - the designated park-up area. We have got - - -
PN1161
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
Because the employees have given various scenarios of that?---Yes.
PN1162
MR NEIL: There's other data in the material which - - -
PN1163
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, there is.
PN1164
MR NEIL: - - - would enable us to do that.
PN1165
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1166
MR NEIL: But could I just interpose with one further question.
PN1167
Dump zones are quite large, aren't they? Could you give a range of the total area that one might be looking at with a dump zone at your mine?---Please explain - - -
PN1168
The limit of the dump zone - it encloses a reasonably large area?---Yes. Are we talking about ROM - - -
PN1169
I'm not talking in your area?---Yes.
PN1170
THE COMMISSIONER: I'm familiar with the size of the trucks, so - - -
PN1171
MR NEIL: Yes.
PN1172
THE COMMISSIONER: But in terms of giving me an idea of the - from the dump zone to the finish - - -
PN1173
MR NEIL: One would need to measure the distance between, in your area, the particular ROM where - - -?---Yes.
PN1174
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
- - - the loaded coal has been dumped, to the designated parking area or crib for that particular route. Is that right?---Yes, correct.
PN1175
That's not shown on this diagram?---No.
PN1176
THE COMMISSIONER: In any event, in terms of giving the direction for the last load, am I to understand that the dispatcher needs
to take into account the final distance to go from the dump zone to the park-up area for that operator?
---Yes, that's absolutely correct. The dispatcher will take all those variables into account and assign that truck based on the information
that the system provides - - -
PN1177
Right?--- - - - to include travel time from dump location, ROM location back to wherever the designated park-up area may be.
PN1178
If the operator - you know, you've shown me the diagram where they can respond - if they consider the time is not sufficient, if it hasn't been properly taken into account, is it acceptable that they respond? Is there communication in relation to - - -?---Absolutely. The operator - - -
PN1179
Does that happen?---The operator will respond, yes. But there was another screen shot where we had the data there where - - -
PN1180
Yes, that was the last one we looked at, right.
PN1181
MR NEIL: If I can interpose another observation - - -
PN1182
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
PN1183
MR NEIL: - - - that's the significance, we say, of the "yes" and "no" facility or function that was illustrated in the last screen shot.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
PN1184
THE COMMISSIONER: Can we just have a look at that again. Do you mind? What was that one again? That's 3, isn't it?
PN1185
MR NEIL: It's 3, in the second statement.
PN1186
THE COMMISSIONER: Just on that diagram - have you got that, Mr Kinderis? I don't really want to - I'm taking your cross-examination.
PN1187
MR NEIL: No, no.
PN1188
THE COMMISSIONER: It's yours, Mr Neil.
PN1189
MR NEIL: I'm very happy - - -
PN1190
THE COMMISSIONER: I am prone to do that, I'm sorry.
PN1191
But there there's a lot of "no's". I just want to be clear as to - - -?---Those trucks haven't been assigned at that particular point in time.
PN1192
They're waiting to be assigned?---They are. As those - the time on that system there - it's only five minutes to 2 o'clock in the afternoon. I would imagine that - - -
PN1193
Those "no's" there - that's actually the dispatcher, "No, they haven't been sent"?
---Yes, that's correct. So it says "sent" and it actually brings up another little screen where the dispatcher will hit
"send" and it'll go "yes". The dispatcher actually has an exception screen, which is beside this one, and the
message comes through on a separate screen. So it'll say "RD74 sent", "no" or "yes", or whatever it
might have been, or might be another message that he's sent it, so - - -
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
PN1194
Right. If there's a communication back, what recognition of that is there?---The dispatcher will, you know, tick it off and then - you know, we've got confirmation, and that's where it should be.
PN1195
Right?---So then the dispatcher can set the next (indistinct) success, I guess.
PN1196
MR NEIL: It may assist, Commissioner, your understanding of what one is looking at to go to the Mr Kinderis's first statement, JPK1, and then in the - that consists of various of plans of the mine, and the third one of those plans would show - I'll hold it up.
PN1197
THE COMMISSIONER: JPK1?
PN1198
MR NEIL: JPK1. It's in the first statement.
PN1199
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you.
PN1200
MR NEIL: There are a number of documents in it, but the one that I'm directing - I'm reminding you of is the third one.
PN1201
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1202
MR NEIL: It looks like that.
PN1203
THE COMMISSIONER: The third one? Yes, thank you.
PN1204
MR NEIL: That enables you - if one goes down to the bottom left quarter, you can see ROM 1 depicted with a red dot.
PN1205
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1206
MR NEIL: Then, Commissioner, if you'd just run your eye immediately below that - - -
PN1207
THE COMMISSIONER: Ramp 32.
PN1208
MR NEIL: - - - you'll see ramp 32.
PN1209
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much.
PN1210
MR NEIL: Then the go line - if you travel up the page towards ROM 3, you'll see the go line indicated.
PN1211
THE COMMISSIONER: I see, thank you.
PN1212
MR NEIL: If I might just ask one question about that.
PN1213
Between ramp 32 and ROM 1 the roads are graded from time to time. That's out in the pit. Correct?---Yes, absolutely.
PN1214
And then from ROM 1 to the go line there's a road. Is that right?---Yes, the main haul road.
PN1215
And is that road surfaced?---It's of a very good surface, yes.
PN1216
So driving along that road doesn't present the same difficulties as driving along the graded road in the pit. Is that correct?---That's correct.
PN1217
Could I turn from that subject matter to another - Commissioner, we'll do this very shortly, I hope. This is new, and so I'll need to ask for leave to deal with this.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
PN1218
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
PN1219
MR NEIL: Are you familiar with the concept of availability as it is applied to plant and equipment in your mine?---Yes, I am.
PN1220
What is that concept?---It's the amount of time a piece of equipment is available over a period of time.
PN1221
What drives availability?---One is good maintenance again.
PN1222
So it's a function of service and maintenance. Is that right?---Yes, that's correct.
PN1223
Are you familiar with the concept of utilisation as it is applied in relation to plant and equipment at your mine?---Yes, I am.
PN1224
What is that concept?---It's the time frame for which we operate the piece of equipment based on annualised hours versus availability.
PN1225
What are the factors that drive the utilisation rate as opposed the availability rate?
---Continuous operation.
PN1226
In your area are there targets for availability?---Yes, there are.
PN1227
And are there targets for utilisation?---Yes, there are.
PN1228
Do you have production targets in your area?---We certainly do.
PN1229
What's the relationship between a utilisation target rate and your production targets?---Volumes are worked out on a calculation based on availability, utilisation, with all the anomalies, put into one, and that will calculate or forecast how many volumes based on that calculation.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
PN1230
Is the operation of the shift changeover provisions taken into account in determining the utilisation rate in your area?---Yes, it is.
PN1231
And how is it taken into account?---The calculation is done that we have an effective shift change of minimum downtime, obviously, to make a utilisation effective.
PN1232
If something were to happen to make it less effective - the shift changeovers - what effect would it have on the utilisation rate?---It would decrease the utilisation and obviously affect our production.
PN1233
THE COMMISSIONER: Those ratios for availability and utilisation, are they fluid? Are they worked out all the time? Are they linked with the coal price? Is there more accentuation put on those particular figures in terms of the dollar gained - the end result of the sale price?---They're based on the overall mine's forecast of production for the year - based over the year. So it's - - -
PN1234
And are they - - -?---Sorry. So we set the forecast, and all those anomalies are taken into account. So we set availability and set utilisation targets that we need to meet to make the production - - -
PN1235
All right. Has there been a recent review of those, given the fluctuations in the coal price?---There was a review done mid-last year, yes, and - - -
PN1236
To what effect?---To the effect that what we needed to do, we needed the availability and utilisation, obviously, to improve and I guess to account for the increased production rates that were occurring over the next five years.
PN1237
Because you have sunk so much into the plant and equipment, and the return is less?---Look, it's based on forecast of volumes of coal.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XN MR NEIL
PN1238
Yes?---I'm sure cost comes into it, but it's based on forecast tonnages that's required for us to move.
PN1239
In terms of the tonnages of coal - if you're getting less for coal - is it too simplistic to say that you have to increase the volumes? I'm just trying to understand. You've introduced that availability and utilisation, so I'm just trying to understand all of the linkages that obviously have an effect in terms of labour as well?---Yes, look, I'm sure they'd offset some of the cost factors.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SLEVIN [10.35AM]
MR SLEVIN: Can you go back to this diagram, which is behind JPK1 to your first statement, please, Mr Kinderis. In your evidence you've explained to us the operating pits. Now, when you're talking about operating pits, you're talking about the coalmining operating pits?---Correct, yes.
PN1241
So there are various pits that are depicted on this diagram, aren't there?---Yes. There's numerous pits, yes.
PN1242
Is that all of the pits for the mine?---Yes, I believe so.
PN1243
A number of the pits are coalmining pits?---Yes.
PN1244
A number of pits have pre-strip operations going on?---Correct.
PN1245
The coalmining pits, the dump points are the ROM 1, ROM 2 and ROM 3. That's correct, isn't it?---Yes, that's generally speaking.
PN1246
And there are stockpiles as well?---Correct.
PN1247
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
Where are the stockpiles?---The stockpiles are located in various areas. Some around ROM 1, ROM 2, some just to the north of ROMs 1 and 2. There are stockpile areas at ROM 3, and there are stockpile areas at Sedgman stockpiles, which is north of ROM 3 again.
PN1248
How far north of ROM 3?---About a maximum of two kilometres.
PN1249
So the stockpiles are close to the ROMs - I just want to put a proposition to you - and that's because from time to time there will be a queue or a delay in actually putting the coal into the hoppers at the ROMs. That's the case, isn't it?---There could be, yes.
PN1250
And so you have a stockpile close by so that you can stockpile the coal. Once the problem with the hopper is fixed, in time, that coal will be moved from the stockpile to the hopper?---Yes, correct.
PN1251
So the dump points are pretty much around the ROMs?---Yes. There is other locations. You know, there is one I could mention. It's up near ramp 14. There's a stockpile pad up there.
PN1252
Can you identify for us the operating coalmining pits?---Okay. Currently?
PN1253
Yes, starting from the top?---So you want me to just tell us about the ones that are operating right now, or - - -
PN1254
Just tell us which ones are operating now?---Right now?
PN1255
Yes?---We've only got ramp 10 operating right now.
PN1256
And where's that?---If you look at - - -
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1257
You might give us the name of the pit. They're easier to follow?---Mitsui Pit.
PN1258
Mitsui Pit, yes?---Yes. So if you go north to ROM 3, before the next crib hut point, and you go right, you'll see ramp - or Mitsui pit.
PN1259
Yes?---That's currently what we're working on.
PN1260
And the other operating coalmining pit?---The only other area we're working at the moment is ramp 2 underground stockpile and numerous other stockpiles that we currently have going. We have got other coal coming on line this week. One of those pits is ramp 25, which is just north of ROM 3.
PN1261
I think you went a bit fast for me. Ramp 2 down the bottom. That's Airstrip pit?
---No, it's 2 underground, which is - if you look to the east of ROMs 1 and 2 you'll see ramp 4 service road.
PN1262
Yes, I see that?---It's just next to that. Just to the south of that.
PN1263
To the south?---Just on the bend it is; right on the bend.
PN1264
All right?---That's the underground stockpile pit.
PN1265
So we've got the Mitsui pit, we've got down at ramp 4 near the ramp 4 service ramp - the underground - - -?---Yes, it's ramp 2 underground - - -
PN1266
Ramp 2?---Yes.
PN1267
And where else are you working?---Look, the guys should have online, today or tomorrow, ramp 25.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1268
And where will we find that?---That's just north of ROM 3, and the access is actually - if you just go - you can see Ramp 25, Dampier pit.
PN1269
Yes?---It's actually at the very northern end of that.
PN1270
So it's not far, as the crow flies, from Mitsui pit?---Not by the way the crow flies. Correct
PN1271
So far as the haul roads go it's quite a distance. Right.
PN1272
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, what do you think the distance is?---You've probably got another probably four kilometres of ramp and pit in addition to ramp 25.
PN1273
MR SLEVIN: And so in terms of the circuits being run from the Mitsui pit, I understand from your statement that the dispatchers
can determine what mix of coal is required, will direct the trucks to either ROM 1, ROM 2 or ROM 3?
---That's correct.
PN1274
So on any given shift, a truck will be operating between Mitsui pit and ROM 3, which is the closest to that pit on a circuit?---Correct.
PN1275
Or from the Mitsui pit down to ROM 1 or ROM 2, which are fairly close together?---That could be the case.
PN1276
So the circuits - and during the shift they're not on one ROM, they may move. They may go to ROM 3 this circuit, the next circuit may be ROM 2, ROM 2 again, then maybe back to ROM 3?---They also may go to the stockpile as well if it's not required.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1277
Depending on what's happening at the ROM?---Yes, correct.
PN1278
THE COMMISSIONER: They will only load from one of the pits on each circuit though, won't they?---Sorry, Commissioner?
PN1279
They will only load from one of the pits on each circuit?---If you're calling that a circuit - - -
PN1280
Well, they will only go to one particular - to get a load? In terms of the mix of coal, we're not going - - -
PN1281
MR SLEVIN: Yes.
PN1282
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1283
MR SLEVIN: So is it also the case then that after dumping a load at ROM 2, for example, the driver may be asked to go to ramp 2 underground?---That could be the case.
PN1284
So it's a very dynamic shift, as it were, as far as the driver is concerned, and a different circuit can be run after each dump. That's the case, isn't it?---It could be. Not likely, but that could occur.
PN1285
In your area you refer to the go line as being the crib hut which is at the pre-start area?---Riverside.
PN1286
So that's Riverside just below ROM 3 on this diagram?---Correct.
PN1287
And you explained earlier that for the coalmine operations there's no other crib hut other than the crib hut that's at the go line, which is also the pre-start area?
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
---That's not quite correct. There is other crib huts. We have one at ramp 27. There's also one at ramp 32, but we have designated - we've got another designated park-up area.
PN1288
A park area?---Correct.
PN1289
Thank you for correcting me. So it's the park-up area. In terms of shift changeovers, at the go line there are only - is it only seven parking bays? Is that the number?---No, that's incorrect.
PN1290
How many parking bays are there?---There's 11.
PN1291
And how many trucks on a shift?---I have 19 trucks in total. Generally a couple of those trucks will be in maintenance. It does vary, but you've got between - generally 17 trucks could be operating at any one time. Also I'll just add that there's two water carts also in addition to those trucks parked on that line.
PN1292
It's the case, isn't it, then that there are not enough parking bays at the go line for shift changeover for all of the trucks to
do their shift changeover at the go line?
---There's not enough room at Riverside to park all those trucks effectively.
PN1293
So you have to park some of them in the field, as it were, in the park-up areas?
---Correct.
PN1294
Can you identify where the park-up areas are for us?---Yes. If you just came out of that Mitsui pit there's a park-up area at that crib hut just to the north of that. There's also a park-up area at ramp 32 or just to the east, south-east, of ROM 1 you can see a crib hut there. There's a park-up area there.
PN1295
I'll just interrupt you. The examples we were seeing earlier were ramp 32 circuits, weren't they?---Correct. And there's also a designated park-up area at the top of ramp 12-14.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1296
You might help me with the location?---Which is - just follow the road north from that ramp 27 crib hut, the ramp 14 corridor, and there's an intersection which turns into the Denham pit and it's pretty much at that intersection there.
PN1297
So at every changeover there's going to be a necessity for those trucks parked out in the field to travel back to the go line in a light vehicle or bus?---If they're parked out in those areas, absolutely.
PN1298
I think we established earlier that there are not enough parking spaces at the go line, so some drivers will have to be at one of the parking areas?---Yes. It's probably more effective for them to be parked elsewhere - you know, if we're taking that into account - because the Mitsui pit, on its way back that crib hut is fairly close to that intersection there.
PN1299
Now, I know it's not your area, but I just want you to assist me if you can with the pre-strip arrangements. I understand that Red Hill pit is operating as a pre-strip area at the moment. Is that right?---Look, I believe so.
PN1300
For a pre-strip circuit, that circuit occurs within the pit generally, doesn't it?
---Yes.
PN1301
So you don't have the trucks on the main four roads. They're within the pit and doing a circuit and the go line for that circuit will usually be around the crib hut for those operators. That's correct, isn't it?---Yes, but they can interact with our - with coalmining haul routes.
PN1302
On what occasions does that occur? That just depends on how the roads are set?
---It depends on, yes, where the dump locations are. Yes.
PN1303
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
So while on this map, on the map you give us, there's a go line indicated, that's only the go line for the coalmine operations?---Correct.
PN1304
And there are various other go lines in the mine that relate to pre-strip operations?---Correct.
PN1305
And with the pre-strip operation go lines, there's a need to travel then once at the end of a shift from that go line back to the start point which is also the go line for coalmine operations. Is that correct?---Just repeat your question again.
PN1306
With a coalmine truck, one of your operators, at the end of the shift most of them, it seems, end up at the start/finish place for the mine?---Correct.
PN1307
Where the pre-start meetings are held. That's the case, is it?---Yes.
PN1308
Some of your coalmine operators park in the field and have to travel from where they park other than in their truck and back to the pre-start area?---That's correct, yes.
PN1309
But with pre-strip, all of the operators in pre-strip have to move from the go line for their pit back to the pre-strip area at the end of their shift. That's the case, isn't it?---Look, I don't know whether I can answer that correctly, but generally speaking, yes, whether they're parked at the end of shift or prior to the end of shift and have travelled back, yes, I guess they do.
PN1310
Typically you don't see pre-strip trucks parked up at the go line for the coalmine operations?---No. We avoid that if we can. They're big trucks.
PN1311
THE COMMISSIONER: When they park up - and I know you've covered some of this, but what are you expecting that they will do then in those bays? Is there a clean done? Is it just a parking bay? What's there?---Yes, it's a V-drain.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1312
They park up and then clean?---Yes. Generally at the end of shift some of the guys will have already taken the initiative and cleaned their truck and it should be spotless, and they will clean off their truck and depart if they're at the Riverside go line. If they're waiting for people to come and pick them up, obviously they will clean their truck, do the same thing, wait for the light vehicle to get there, hop in the light vehicle once it's there, have a quick chat about their tasks or the issues with the equipment and head back to the go line and depart.
PN1313
So if there isn't enough bays - you've got 11 parking bays, on average 17 trucks, they're going to have to wait to get into one of those bays that have the cleaning facility. Am I correct in - - -?---No.
PN1314
No?---No, it's incorrect.
PN1315
Right?---No, there's no cleaning facilities as such on there, it's the operator use a broom and wipe the windows with some Kleenex and some rag.
PN1316
Right, okay, good?---That's the sort of cleaning. The park-up areas are obviously designed to have everything in correct location so it allows for a continuous operation to occur.
PN1317
It's designed for the next crew to come in and - yes?---Absolutely, setting the next shift up for success and, you know, for the operation to maximise that continuous operation.
PN1318
MR SLEVIN: In a similar vein but by reference to your first statement, can you open up at paragraph 18 and 19 where you deal with hot-seat changeovers for dozers, loaders, excavators and ancillary equipment, so not the trucks. You might just read that to yourself just to remind yourself what's there. Let me know when you've done it?---Yes, I'm - - -
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1319
I just want to ask you about paragraph 19 and what's happening in subparagraph (b), which is when the oncoming operator and the offgoing operator meet. The mechanics of that is that the oncoming operator is in a light vehicle. That's the case, isn't it?---The oncoming operators? That's correct.
PN1320
So the light vehicle will come into the pit and there will be a two-way communication between the driver of the light vehicle and the operator of the equipment; let's say it's a dozer. That's correct, isn't it?---That's correct.
PN1321
The safety systems at the mine require there be a communication from both ends. The light-vehicle driver ensures the dozer is aware that he's in the pit - he or she is in the pit. That's correct, isn't it?---Yes, if it was a dozer, correct.
PN1322
And is required not to proceed until the dozer operator acknowledges the call that the light vehicle is entering the pit. That's the case, isn't it?---That should be the process, correct.
PN1323
So there may be delay in that occurring. It's not a, "I drive my light vehicle into the pit near to the dozer, jump out and jump into the dozer," is it? There's a system in place that takes time and that system includes that communication I've just described to you, doesn't it?---Yes, it generally takes between one and five seconds.
PN1324
Depending on what the dozer operator is doing to acknowledge - because the dozer operator will - if mid-task, for example, may wait a minute before acknowledging the light vehicle because they're occupied with what they're doing?---I wouldn't imagine that would occur at the end of shifts.
PN1325
Because they're all keen to get out of there?---That's if he's ready to go.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1326
In any event, there needs to be that communication. The next event is for the light-vehicle driver to go to a designated parking area in the pit. That's the case, isn't it?---That should be the case also, yes, if it's a dozer operating.
PN1327
That park-up area must be at least 50 metres from the dozer?---That should be the case also and the process.
PN1328
Then the dozer operator has to walk the dozer. That's the expression used when moving a track dozer, isn't it, to walk the dozer?---Yes.
PN1329
Walk the dozer towards the light vehicle for the changeover to occur?---The dozer operator could be parked up beside the light-vehicle park-up area, then he - I can't say that he would or wouldn't be there, but he could be parked up beside the light-vehicle park-up area waiting for the oncoming operator to swap him out.
PN1330
He could be?---He could
PN1331
That's right?---Yes.
PN1332
But if he's operating, if he's continuing to operate, his dozer is live, as it were?
---Yes.
PN1333
You can't take your light vehicle within 50 metres of a live dozer, can you?---No, you shouldn't do.
PN1334
Then the changeover occurs and the dozer has to be isolated whilst shutting it down. That's the case, isn't it?---No.
PN1335
No? The dozer can stay operating for the changeover, can it?---The dozer? The dozer can remain idling.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1336
Is the dozer operator expected to clean the cabin before the changeover?---The dozer operator I would expect should clean his cabin and pass it over in a tidy manner.
PN1337
So that's going to take a little time, isn't it?---Depends how efficient the guy is during the shift, I guess - where he's working and what he's doing.
PN1338
Then there are hydraulic ladders on the dozers?---Yes.
PN1339
They have to come down for the dozer operator to get out of the machine?
---Absolutely.
PN1340
It's just that in your example in paragraph 19(b) those various things I've just described to you don't seem to have been taken into account. That's the case, isn't it?---I would still suggest it probably only takes a couple - maximum couple of minutes.
PN1341
So a couple of minutes for the communication to occur, the dozer to walk to the light vehicle, the cleaning of the cabin, the hydraulic ladder coming down and the operator dismounting, and then having communication. I suggest to you that it takes longer than a couple of minutes. That process would take between five and 10 minutes?---I would suggest it doesn't take that long.
PN1342
I've used the example of the dozer but the things I've just described to you applied equally to a loader or excavator. That's the case, isn't it?---Similar circumstances.
PN1343
You refer to ancillary equipment as well, Mr Kinderis. Are these the water carts, the wheel dozers and the graders?---I put those in there because from time to time - and it doesn't refer to water carts though - wheel dozers, I would suggest maybe once a month there might be a wheel dozer left in a pit due to somebody doing a task and not quite completing it. Graders have a designated park-up back at the start point, the Riverside go line, and so do the wheel dozers. Generally speaking, 99 per cent of the time or 99.5 per cent of the time, those pieces of equipment park back at the go line.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1344
That was my question there. The ancillary equipment they used go back to the go line, so they're on - when they travel, does that equipment travel on the haul road?---That equipment does, correct.
PN1345
And while I'm on that topic, what about the light vehicles and the buses at the changeover of shift? Are they travelling on a haul road as well?---They should not travel on the haul road. They should travel the designated roads.
PN1346
You say they should not, but is it the case in practice that they do?---Look, I wouldn't say that it doesn't happen but the expectation is that it shouldn't. There is areas where vehicles still do travel on haul roads and that is the design of the mine. We've got designated service roads and the expectation is that the light vehicles use those designated service roads unless they are using the haul road to access a piece of equipment or plant.
PN1347
It is the case, though, that there is additional traffic on the roads - I should go back a step. The designated service roads intersect
the haul roads as well, don't they? There are intersections of those two types of roads. That's the case, isn't it?
---Crossing over the haul road?
PN1348
Yes?---Yes.
PN1349
So there will be some interaction between light vehicles and trucks, for example, even if the light vehicle is travelling on a surfaced road, because there are those intersections?---There could be.
PN1350
It's the case that at shift changeover there's more traffic on the roads around the mine than at any other time. That's the case, isn't it?---I would say increased light vehicles on the road, yes.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1351
Well, there's light vehicles but also ancillary equipment are on the move at that time as well, because they're on a shift changeover as well?---Yes. Generally speaking, there would be some just prior to shift change. A lot of the ancillary equipment is back, a shift change is done and the light vehicles start to move out.
PN1352
So travelling a circuit at around shift changeover time may take a little bit longer because of the traffic on the roads. Is that the case?---It may.
PN1353
You gave some evidence before about there being a number of factors that may influence the time it takes to run a circuit. I just want to run through with you some other examples. We'll confine it to your area, coal mines. There can be queues at the loaders. I think we saw that in the example you gave in JPK4 on your second statement. There can be queues at the loaders. That's the case, isn't it?---There could be prior to the end of shift.
PN1354
Indeed, the queue in JPK4 was actually at least a 10-minute queue, because the truck we looked at on the video waited 10 minutes at the loader before it was called back to the go line. Do you recall that?---No, I don't.
PN1355
Have a look at your second statement. It's paragraph 14 of your second statement, and F and G - I read that as RD74 arriving at the excavator and joining the back of the queue?---Where's that, sorry?
PN1356
Your second statement, paragraph 14. If you go to the last page of your second statement, we've got F, at approximately 5:59:43 RD74
arrives at the excavator and is queued waiting to take another load, and then at G, at approximately 6.09 RD74 progresses in the
queue to take a load from EXD47. So that looked to me like - am I right in saying that the truck has been in the queue for 10 minutes?
---That could be correct.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1357
And then it's two minutes later that RD74 leaves the queue without having taken a load. So that truck has been in the queue for 12 minutes - - -?---Yes.
PN1358
- - - and hasn't taken a load. Hasn't got to the front of the line, it seems. Is that right?---Look, if I look back and I see wheel dozer 12 there, I'd probably suggest that the excavator was getting a clean-up from wheel dozer 12, more to the point than a queue. In fact - - -
PN1359
It results in a queue, though, doesn't it? I was going to go to - that is one of the other reasons that one of the circuits won't be as predicted by the calculations done by the dispatchers, is that things happen in the pit. You were talking about some examples earlier?---Yes.
PN1360
I'm just going through some other examples?---Yes.
PN1361
So we've got in your example a 12-minute wait at the excavator, and it may be explained by a number of things. That's the case, isn't it? You've given one explanation, which is, it looks like there's a wheel dozer there cleaning up?---Yes.
PN1362
The wheel dozer is there to clean up, isn't it, because from time to time, despite what we saw in the video earlier, the trucks aren't loaded as cleanly as you'd like and there's spillage?---I wouldn't suggest it was spillage in coalmining's case, because we certainly don't overload our trucks. It's probably more for the tyres, where the excavator has been digging.
PN1363
So an uneven surface - - -?---Yes.
PN1364
- - - in the coalmining area more than spillage? In any event, something has happened that requires a dozer to do some sweeping?---Yes, absolutely.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1365
And that can happen, depending on the geology or the state of material being moved, either regularly or, if you're having a good day, you don't need to do much sweeping at all. It's variable like that, isn't it?---Yes, it can be. Yes.
PN1366
And it can be variable within one pit, because the excavators actually move, don't they, along the face?---They do.
PN1367
Indeed, the movement of the excavator is another reason that there might end up being a queue in the truck circuit. That's the case, isn't it?---Not generally.
PN1368
Well, the trucks have to wait when the excavator is moving?---They move fairly quickly to the dig and they continue to load. An inexperienced operator obviously would take a bit longer, but there's not much time.
PN1369
Is it the case that - you might give me the same answer in relation to spills on the roads; that even haul roads can end up with the need for a dozer or a grader to come in to smooth a road out or sweep a road because there's been a spillage from a truck or for some other reason. That's the case, isn't it? So we're away from the load point now and actually on the haul roads. That can happen from time to time as well, can't it?---That could occur, but it wouldn't affect the haul trucks. They'd either go around it or go over it.
PN1370
Well, it would affect them in that it would slow them down if there's a dozer doing some work on the haul road, though?---You won't see a dozer doing much work on our haul roads.
PN1371
Or a grader, rather, I should have said?---A grader, yes, but, you know, our procedures allow for the equipment to go around the grader.
PN1372
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
In terms of the - and this may be a pre-strip issue, but there may be dust events occur during a circuit as well. That's the case, isn't it?---That can occur from time to time.
PN1373
If there's a dust event - you mentioned visibility earlier, that's all. The visibility issue occurs when a wind blows up dust or for some reason there's particulate matter in the air and it affects the visibility of the drivers. That occurs from time to time as well, doesn't it?---That occurs from time to time.
PN1374
And that will slow the trucks down?---That sometimes can, yes, affect the trucks' operation.
PN1375
And will either slow them down or they may even stop, depending on how bad it is?---Absolutely.
PN1376
The water carts are then called to deal with the dust problem?---Yes. We obviously adjust our shift change to suit all that sort of stuff.
PN1377
Yes. I was going to get onto that?---Yes.
PN1378
So when you're talking about circuit times - - -?---Mm'hm.
PN1379
- - - these sorts of times that are calculated in the annexures to your statement, they're sort of ideal times. They take the distance, look at the speed that the vehicle is going to run at when it's full, look at the speed that it's going to run at when it's empty, and just do the simple calculation as to, well, if you go to that speed, that's how quickly that circuit will be done?---Yes, absolutely, and the dispatcher will still make an informed decision based on all that data and put the appropriate park-up in place.
PN1380
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
If we go back to your first statement, paragraphs 28 and 29. I'll just give you a chance to read those two paragraphs to yourself and let me know when you've done that.
PN1381
THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, what paragraph is that, Mr Slevin?
PN1382
MR SLEVIN: 28 and 29 of Mr Kinderis's first statement, Commissioner.
PN1383
What I'm interested in is the 20 minutes at the end of paragraph 29 as being the difference between parking up at 6.12 at the go line and parking up out in the field. So I'll just let you know that at the start?---If you were to go back to the map and just see the difference in distance between ROM 3, I guess, and if he was going back to ramp 32 to get another load to dump, the difference between that light vehicle going out and swapping over to the truck, leaving from ramp 32, going to ramp 32, there's some time frame in there.
PN1384
That's the time frame you're talking about, and I do want to do that. Can you go to the map JPK1 that we've been looking at, the one that you identified the various pits for us. So in your example you've got at 6.12, which is - your shifts start at 6.15, so 6.12 is three minutes before the 12-hour mark. You've got a truck going past the go line. Is it going north or south, this truck?---I think we're talking in general there. It could be going north or south.
PN1385
So either north or south?---The intent with that is that if a truck is going past that Riverside go line at 6.12 pm - a.m. - the expectation is that the truck doesn't stop at that. It either goes to its - the dispatcher will decide whether it goes to the next designated location. It might be going to Sedgman stockpile, for instance, and the expectation would be it would take an extra two minutes to drive to the loader, get a load and return back to the go line or dump its load or whatever the dispatcher decides that it should do.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1386
I want to do the actual hypothetical that you've presented to us in 28 and 29, only give it some flesh, as it were, by having an example using this map?---Yes.
PN1387
So for our purposes it doesn't matter if he's going north or south, the truck driver, so let's say he's going south. So he drives on for an additional eight minutes to a park-up point from the go line, so if you were to drive an additional eight minutes and park and you arrive at the park point at 6.20, what's the operator doing once he gets to the park point?---So - - -
PN1388
He's then cleaning the vehicle, is he?---He could be.
PN1389
And then he's waiting for the oncoming operator at that point, isn't he?---I would suggest so, if that's the point you're making.
PN1390
Yes. Well, I just want to know what he's doing. Don't worry about what point I'm making. So he's parked at 6.20. Now, the oncoming operator is just finishing or in the midst of their pre-start meeting at the go line, isn't he or she?---Yes.
PN1391
And so at 6.20 at the park-up point, the outgoing operator has to wait for the oncoming operator to drive in a light vehicle to the park-up point?---Correct.
PN1392
And that should be around the same time, another eight minutes?---Yes, it could be. It could be, yes.
PN1393
So it then becomes around 6.30 that the oncoming operator arrives at the park-up point?---Yes, it could be.
PN1394
Then how long will it take for the oncoming operator to then do the communication handover and get up into the truck?---I would suggest that those guys would be in that vehicle within a minute.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1395
So from 6.30 the oncoming operator then drives the additional five minutes or so to the dump point, in your example, and dumps at 6.35?---Sorry, is it parked loaded or parked empty?
PN1396
He's parked loaded because he's off to - I think in your example he's dumping. At 6.12 he's passed with the load?---No, that wouldn't be correct. No, that would be incorrect. It depends where he's going. If he's going to pass - he'd be going either north or south. If he's going past the Riverside go line at 6.12 and he was loaded and he's going to ROM 3 to dump, he'd go and dump his load and you could just about guarantee that he's probably coming back to the Riverside go line after he's dumped his load and he would probably arrive there at 6.16 or 6.17. If he was travelling southbound to dump his load into ROM 1, I would suggest that for him to travel down and back loaded, going past at 6.12, I believe it would take about 14 minutes to go and dump the load and come back to the Riverside start point or go to the - dump his load and go to the other designated park area would probably take about the same amount of time, so it would put him there at 6.26, something like that, awaiting for the oncoming crew to come to collect him and take him back.
PN1397
I think you've just expressed the difficulty with your hypothetical when trying to apply it to your map, because if we go to your
hypothetical in your statement, he is loaded at 6.12 as he goes past the go line and what you're saying in 28 and 29, as I read it,
is that it is more productive for him to go to a park-up area closer to the dump point than for him to stop at the go line and do
a handover at the go line, and what I was going to get to is to say, well, that's not necessarily so. Do you agree with that? We
can do it step by step, which is what I'd intended doing?
---Yes. I think I got a little bit lost in the question there.
PN1398
Yes. We were going through the exercise?---Yes.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1399
And I was trying to follow what you say in 28 and 29 on the map, and we got to the point where I said there was a park-up, there was a changeover and then there was a dump, and it seemed to me when I was looking at the map that I can't see anywhere on the map that your example would actually occur, and even if it did, it wouldn't end up with the conclusion that there was a 20-minute difference between the two possible procedures. So aware of that, Mr Kinderis, I just want to go through to see whether we're in agreement that your example is not a practical example that could actually occur on site. I take you back to where we were, which is we had the offgoing operator drive past the go line at 6.12. He parked up at a designated park area on the way to dumping at 6.20. He waited until 6.30 for the oncoming operator to arrive in a light vehicle. Following the load, the new operator then drives and dumps at 6.35. So that's the "park up in the field" example. If the other option had been taken - you understand that's what you described in your statement. Right?---Can I just read this again?
PN1400
Yes?---You're bamboozling me with science here. So your question was the truck goes past and, as I state here, for example, if a truck - - -
PN1401
I haven't got to the question yet. I just wanted to confirm that I've just described - I haven't misrepresented what you say here in terms of the dump occurs at 6.35 because those steps were taken. I'll go through them one at a time for you. The first step is at 6.12 a loaded truck drives past the go line, is instructed to proceed to a park-up point. I understand that's the first step?---Yes, I'm just struggling to see that, that's all.
PN1402
See paragraph 28?---Yes.
PN1403
6.12?---Yes.
PN1404
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
"The operator has time to continue their circuit to dump their load or take a new load if they are returning for the ROM" - so I'm going the first, continue the circuit?---Correct. So he's either got a load on or he hasn't got a load on.
PN1405
Yes, but I'm going he's got a load on, because ultimately we get to how long the ROM waited for the load to be dumped?---Yes.
PN1406
So that's where we're starting. So he's gone past the go line at 6.12 to go to a park-up point but not to go all the way to the dump point?---I would suggest that he would go to the dump.
PN1407
You're suggesting that but in your example that's not what happens?---I would suggest from experience that is what occurs.
PN1408
I'm going to ask you to assume that he's gone to the park-up point?---Yes.
PN1409
He goes to the park-up point. There's then the changeover - - -?---Can I just elaborate? Going past the ROM or past the go line, I don't currently have any park-up points other than the DRV go line and ramp 12 with a designated load of trucks, so if I can make that point.
PN1410
I had intended to move on and I may not have made it clear from the - we're now doing the hypothetical rather than trying to match the hypothetical to a map, because I thought you agreed with me earlier that that hypothetical can't work on the current arrangements. So I make it clear to you we're on the hypothetical, so I want you to assume then that there is a dump point eight minutes from the go line?---Yes.
PN1411
Then there's the changeover and then the load is dumped at 6.35 using the changeover in the field?---Mm'hm.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1412
I want you to come back with me. If I put a hypothetical to you now to say, "Look, what if that operator indeed did pull up at the go line? What would happen? Am I right in saying these would be the steps? At 6.12 the operator would pull up at the go line, which is the same place the pre-start meeting is being held, or thereabouts?---No, I disagree.
PN1413
You disagree?---I disagree that it would be parked up at 6 o'clock with a load on. I would suggest that the dispatcher would have directed him to go to the ROM, dump a load and stop off.
PN1414
Yes, and I'm asking you to assume that, in my example, he does do that?---Okay.
PN1415
He pulls up?---Yes.
PN1416
So he pulls up, he waits until the pre-start meeting finishes, which is about 6.25. So the load is sitting at the go line until 6.25. The oncoming operator does the changeover, which you say takes about a minute, jumps on the truck and the oncoming operator drives to the dump point, which is 15 minutes from the go line?---Depending which dump station you're talking about, yes.
PN1417
It's the same dump station that we were talking about a moment ago. So the difference is that the dump being done in the second example is being done at 6.40?---So if the guy has pulled up at 6.12 - - -
PN1418
He's waited for the pre-start to finish?---Which shouldn't occur anyway.
PN1419
Whether it should or shouldn't occur?---Yes.
PN1420
If it did occur, he's there; the pre-start finishes and so at around 6.20 or 6.25 the changeover occurs of the operators, and the load is taken to the dump point and will arrive at 6.40?---Thereabouts.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1421
Yes. So that's why I had the question that we started with. Why do you say that the difference between those two is that the ROM was waiting 20 minutes for coal? It was only waiting five minutes. The difference between those two examples was only five minutes?---The difference is we're not highlighting where the trucks are being loaded from and/or where the trucks are actually going. This is about the effect of part of that utilisation.
PN1422
But in your statement you don't give us those two tasks, do you?---I express that this is the expectation around effect (indistinct) change.
PN1423
I just want to put to you, to be fair, Mr Kinderis, that you've overstated in your statement, in this example at 28-29, the impact of the operator pulling up at 6.12 rather than going to a park-up area. You've overstated it by 15 minutes, haven't you?---I don't believe so. You put a hypothetical in there to change the meaning of it. At the end of the day the truck wouldn't be parked at 6.12 - or shouldn't be parked at 6.12.
PN1424
But what I'm saying to you is if it was, the effect would be a five-minute difference between the time the load arrived at the dump. That's what I'm putting to you?---No, the effect would be probably 40 minutes. This is what you're effectively saying, isn't it?
PN1425
How do you get 40 minutes?---So it's 6.12 to 6.40 you're saying, so we're talking about 37 minutes or whatever it is - 38 minutes in total. So effectively we would strive not for that to occur. However, if an operator decides that that's what he's going to do, then obviously it's going to have significant effect.
PN1426
If what he does is what happens in your example, he drives to a park-up point and does a changeover in the field, the load is dumped at 6.35?---It depends where he's parked, and whether he's got a load on or not. The expectation is, as it states, from 6.12, if he's proceeding past the go line, that he would continue on to get another load or to a dump station.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1427
THE COMMISSIONER: On that. When you say "the expectation is" - moving on from that - what's the expectation? That they'd
leave the mine site then?
---Look, my expectation around leaving the mine site is that in a lot of occasions we've got truck drivers pulling upon the go line
anywhere between 6.15 and 6.30. The expectation is in accordance with what we're working by, and it's that once the hot-seat changeover
is complete that the people are allowed to leave the mine site. So it could be at 6.15, it could be at 6.16, it could be at 6.45
on the odd time. A person may get in late.
PN1428
Where's the TAMS? Is that in the - where's the swipe - - -?---The TAMS is just on the outside of the start point. It's - - -
PN1429
At the industrial site there?---Right at our go line area there - the start point. The guys come in, they sign off, and they walk out. It's about 75 metres from where they drive the trucks: walk in, start point, and swipe out the TAMS, then into the carpark from there.
PN1430
Sorry, where's the carpark from there?---It's right at the TAMS gate.
PN1431
Right. Okay?---TAMS gate, carpark, bus service. It's all there.
PN1432
MR SLEVIN: I think you might have a diagram that will assist the Commissioner.
PN1433
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I did see that. I'm just trying to marry that up with your times, because on your times you've got 90 per cent of - the average exit time is 6.22 for August, isn't it?---Yes. It's a very good time, yes.
PN1434
That's for August?---Yes.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1435
I only have August?---Yes, I'm confident that you could get that data month-on-month and it the data would show that since the (indistinct) been involved, that the data would be very consistent.
PN1436
You're saying that there's only 6 per cent of employees that are working after the 12-hour mark?---Yes, and there would be, you know - - -
PN1437
Sorry, that's not correct. That's not correct what I put to you. 6 per cent of employees perform little or no work after the 12-hour mark?---That would be correct.
PN1438
You've got 94 per cent that do?---Sorry?
PN1439
You've got 94 per cent that do?---Perform work?
PN1440
After the 12-hour mark?---As far as affecting the hot-seat change?
PN1441
Well, I'm just going on your data in 38?---Yes.
PN1442
I'm assuming 94 per cent work after the 12-hour to affect the hot-seat - - -
PN1443
MR NEIL: Commissioner, it's the other way round.
PN1444
THE COMMISSIONER: Is it the other way round?
PN1445
MR NEIL: Yes?---Yes - - -
PN1446
Only 6 per cent after 12 hours.
PN1447
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
THE COMMISSIONER: 6 per cent of all (indistinct) perform little or no work beyond the 12-hour mark.
PN1448
MR NEIL: I'm sorry, yes, I (indistinct)
PN1449
THE COMMISSIONER: So 94 per cent must perform work after the - I mean, it's then qualified as you move through. On average, they're leaving at 6.22.
PN1450
MR NEIL: Yes?---Yeah, that's correct, because they have to park up and come over, wash their hands, and head off out the gate. So it probably takes - - -
PN1451
THE COMMISSIONER: They're parking up at 6.15?---Yes.
PN1452
And just leading off Mr Slevin, there's not much time between 6.15 and 6.22 to do the things after they park up?---They're getting paid till 6.45.
PN1453
Yes?---Yes. That's 12 hours 30 minutes is the work time, not 12 hours.
PN1454
I interrupted you, Mr Slevin, sorry.
PN1455
MR SLEVIN: Thank you, Commissioner. That's precisely where I was going next.
PN1456
The TAMS data, do I understand from that discussion, and from paragraph 36 of your statement - have I got that wrong?
PN1457
THE COMMISSIONER: It would be good to have some further bit of charting further of the TAMS data, only because - and I'm not being cynical in relation - - -
PN1458
MR NEIL: No, no.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1459
THE COMMISSIONER: Perhaps I am, but the August times obviously is right on the brink of this hearing.
PN1460
MR NEIL: The evidence is, which we don't understand to be challenged, that that's a typical month. If you would appreciate more and find that helpful, then we can fairly quickly produce it. It will take about a week to produce. We have to convert the raw data into something meaningful.
PN1461
THE COMMISSIONER: I'm not taking issue with the credit of Mr Kinderis in saying that. He says it's fairly - but I put it on transcript because obviously that's how I have to take that particular evidence that that is a typical month and there is no other. I mean, there might only be that top charting figure.
PN1462
MR NEIL: If there's the slightest reservation about it anywhere then we would prefer to produce a wider sample, to lay that to rest. Our evidence is that it is a typical month, and as Mr Kinderis has said, he is confident that a wider sample would produce a result consistent with that of the month in question. But if there is any reservation about that anywhere, we would like to put that away, but we'll need a little time to collect it.
PN1463
THE COMMISSIONER: I don't know what that exercise involves. Is that a - - -
PN1464
MR NEIL: There is an exercise in translating the raw data into something that can be - - -
PN1465
THE COMMISSIONER: Is it going to involve Ms Gillies staying back late at night for weeks and weeks?
PN1466
MR NEIL: Nothing would restrain her from doing so, despite my best efforts. It will require a little bit of work, but we want to do it if there is going to be any question about this.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1467
THE COMMISSIONER: It's an important issue. I want to be clear that I'm not - - -
PN1468
MR NEIL: We understand. I'm sure Mr Kinderis does too.
PN1469
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, but, you know, that's important information that's being put forward. You know, it's a significant reliance that I have to make in relation to that material and marry it with the things that Mr Slevin is saying in cross-examination.
PN1470
MR NEIL: So that everybody - - -
PN1471
THE COMMISSIONER: I would be more confident with a wider sample. Can I say that?
PN1472
MR NEIL: Can we respond in two ways to that observation?
PN1473
THE COMMISSIONER: Can you just take that on notice and give it some consideration?
PN1474
MR NEIL: We will. We will produce it.
PN1475
THE COMMISSIONER: And perhaps Mr Slevin will as well.
PN1476
MR NEIL: But we'll have to have some time.
PN1477
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1478
MR NEIL: And perhaps what we can do is - - -
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1479
THE COMMISSIONER: I'd like to be informed as to what that exercise involves.
PN1480
MR NEIL: Can I do that after lunch, when I've had a chance to take some more careful instructions about that point?
PN1481
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1482
MR NEIL: Then we'll ask for some time to put that material in, and both sides - my learned friend can have an opportunity to address some further submissions to it if he wants.
PN1483
THE COMMISSIONER: So you'll take that on notice too, Mr Slevin?
PN1484
MR NEIL: So we'll address that.
PN1485
THE COMMISSIONER: But you're going onto this - all right, I appreciate that. You're going to this now, in any event, Mr Slevin?
PN1486
MR SLEVIN: Yes.
PN1487
MR NEIL: Just so that we can - can I make one further observation for the purpose of ensuring that our hand is disclosed here. We will obviously be submitting that the TAMS data is the single best - indeed the determinative source of information about the operation of these provisions.
PN1488
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, and that's the reason - when I've only got one month - that it is a significant piece of information.
PN1489
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
MR NEIL: I suspect, then, we are all of mind. May I return to that after lunchtime?
PN1490
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Slevin, my apologies for interrupting.
PN1491
MR SLEVIN: Thank you, Commissioner.
PN1492
If you go to the TAMS data that we have in your statement at paragraph 38.
PN1493
THE COMMISSIONER: Do we require a break? I probably take events way beyond the - Mr Kinderis, I don't want to go off our - but I also want to be mindful of the witness.
PN1494
Do you require a short break, Mr Kinderis? How are you going?---Yeah, I'm going all right.
PN1495
You're fine?
PN1496
MR SLEVIN: I only have five minutes.
PN1497
THE COMMISSIONER: All right, that's fine.
PN1498
MR NEIL: Could we have a short break after Mr Kinderis?
PN1499
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1500
MR NEIL: I know I would appreciate that.
PN1501
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. I just want to be mindful of the witness?---Yeah, I'm fine.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1502
All right.
PN1503
MR SLEVIN: Just the TAMS data in paragraph 38. You've heard the discussion. It seems that there's 6 per cent who do little or no work past the 12 hours. It's then 90 per cent who left the mine after 12 but before 6.45. So that's the end of shift. What are the other 4 per cent doing? Are they leaving the mine after 6.45?---They may have left before.
PN1504
So (indistinct) little or no work past 12 hours, or would the 6 per cent cover those? Do you know?---That's beyond - it doesn't state prior.
PN1505
It's your statement. Did you collect this data, or did you have someone do it for you?---I observed the data.
PN1506
But you're not sure - - -?---It wasn't - - -
PN1507
- - - whether that other 4 per cent left after or before the - - -?---There was a percentage that left after in the data that we collected, correct, and there was a percentage that left just - - -
PN1508
So you did collect the data as to how many left after. You just haven't put it in your statement.
PN1509
MR NEIL: Can I just point out it's all there. The raw data is there.
PN1510
THE COMMISSIONER: So that's the 25 pages.
PN1511
MR NEIL: Yes. JPK3 is the raw data for the summary in paragraph 38, so anyone who wants to look at it can make the calculation.
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1512
THE COMMISSIONER: I apologise for interrupting you, but I just want to understand your questions as you go through.
PN1513
So JPK3 is the true and correct copy of the entry and exit data for all production and engineering employees in the coalmine, so I'm interested in these employees that are caught under this agreement, effectively. So is it the same sample?---This is a sample of the coalmine workers that work for me under my direction, under the coalmining - - -
PN1514
That are employed under the agreement?---Yes, they're also employed under the agreement.
PN1515
Are there other salaried staff caught in there?---No, there's not.
PN1516
Right?---No.
PN1517
Okay?---They're just coalmining employees, coalmine department employees.
PN1518
All right. Thank you. So how many?---There's close to 180.
PN1519
So effectively when you say 6 per cent - I don't know the exact figures, but you're nearly at 200, so you're saying that that's 12 employees, effectively. Would that be right? 6 per cent of all offgoing coalmining operators perform little or no work beyond the 12-hour mark, a bit less than 12 employees who didn't perform any work beyond the 12-hour mark?---That would be, yes, that were parked up and ready to go home right on the 12-hour mark, and the 90 per cent stop, you know, somewhere between 6.15 and 6.45. That's the shift start and finish time. And there is a percentage that would've went over.
PN1520
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
So about 162, I think?---A smaller per cent. That's not the numbers, no. So it's 176. You know, 10 per cent would be 17 and then we're probably talking 2 per cent.
PN1521
The 4 per cent, we don't know whether they - - -?---Over or under.
PN1522
Because someone here, I think - - -?---The data is there.
PN1523
Anyway, keep going, Mr Slevin.
PN1524
MR SLEVIN: Thank you, Commissioner.
PN1525
Can you open up JPK3 for me, please, and can you go to - the pages aren't numbered, but I think we can navigate it by reference to date. Can you go to 20 August for me. There's what appears to be the end of the day on 20 August, so if you go to where 20 August becomes 21 August. Do you see that?---Yes, I see that.
PN1526
If you go to 7 and 53 pm?---Yes.
PN1527
We have someone in Mining D leaving, it appears, at 7.53 or about 7.01 in the evening?---Yes.
PN1528
That's 15 minutes after shift, isn't it?---Correct, it is.
PN1529
Then if we go up to 6.45.05, that's around the end of shift, isn't it?---Correct.
PN1530
So just in that example - I don't want to take you through every day?---No, that's fine.
PN1531
**** JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS XXN MR SLEVIN
I just pick this example. It appears that those operators - and there are nine between those two time points. Those nine operators have left after the end of shift point?---Yes, that's correct. If my memory serves me well, on that particular day there was a site emergency at the end of shift and that would account for those operators helping right at the end of the shift and some operators did get delayed on that particular day.
PN1532
What was the site emergency?---I don't actually recall the site emergency.
PN1533
I just have a question for you. Amongst those nine, 6.52 am is recorded. Can you explain that?---So that's A crew. If you look, it's A crew. That would be night shift going home. So there's a changeover between day and night, so there's an operator delayed from the - - -
PN1534
So that's just someone leaving that morning at 6.52 am and it's nothing to do with D crew?---Sorry, correct. Yes.
PN1535
So it's D crew that left after their shift finished?---Yes, correct, what's in there.
PN1536
And at the various times that are left there. I have no further questions for you, Mr Kinderis, thank you.
PN1537
MR NEIL: Nothing arising.
PN1538
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much, Mr Kinderis, for coming over. Thank you.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.46AM]
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. We're behind schedule I think, are we?
PN1540
MR SLEVIN: No, I think we'll still get through the witnesses today. Mr Kinderis being the first was - - -
PN1541
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. I'm not concerned. All right, we can take a break?
PN1542
MR NEIL: We're operating on the basis that we're on schedule but a five to 10-minute break would be very much appreciated.
PN1543
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. We'll adjourn for 10 minutes and we've got Mr Burke then. Is that right?
PN1544
MR NEIL: Yes.
PN1545
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Thank you very much.
<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.47AM]
<RESUMED [12.11PM]
PN1546
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Neil.
PN1547
MR NEIL: Mr Dalton will take the next witness.
PN1548
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
PN1549
MR DALTON: I call Joshua Burke.
<JOSHUA JOHN BURKE, AFFIRMED [12.12PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DALTON [12.13PM]
MR DALTON: Mr Burke, could you please state for the purposes of the transcript recording your full name and your work address?---Joshua John Burke, Goonyella Riverside Mine, care of Moranbah, Queensland.
PN1551
You're employed by BHP Coal as the pre-strip superintendent at the Goonyella Riverside Mine?---Yes.
PN1552
And you've held that position for how long?---A little bit over six months.
PN1553
And before that?---I was the process control superintendent at Goonyella Riverside for about six months.
PN1554
And you've prepared a statement for the purposes of this proceeding?---Yes.
PN1555
Have you got a copy of that in front of you?---Yes.
PN1556
Are the contents of that statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge?
---They are. There's a slight error in the actual document, where two of my annexures are 5 and 6 as opposed to 4 and 5.
PN1557
Yes, all right. With those amendments to the references to those annexures, it is otherwise true and correct?---Yes.
PN1558
I tender that.
PN1559
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much. We'll mark the statement of Mr Joshua Burke as exhibit 16 in the proceedings.
EXHIBIT #16 STATEMENT OF JOSHUA JOHN BURKE
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XN MR DALTON
PN1560
MR DALTON: Commissioner, by leave, I'd propose to lead some relatively short evidence from Mr Burke to clarify some matters, including a point of contention between him and Mr Goulevitch in relation to the operations at ramp 14, and also to clarify a couple of terminology things that Mr Kinderis wasn't a hundred per cent sure about.
PN1561
THE COMMISSIONER: All right.
PN1562
MR DALTON: Mr Burke may be able to deal with - - -
PN1563
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Slevin will let me know if he's got a difficulty with the nature of the questioning.
PN1564
MR DALTON: Yes.
PN1565
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Dalton.
PN1566
MR DALTON: Firstly, Commissioner, there is a map that I'd like to take the witness to, and it's available on the screen so you'll be able to see it. I don't know whether you've received some file - - -
PN1567
THE COMMISSIONER: I think I have seen that.
PN1568
MR DALTON: I've got it in an A3 format for your convenience.
PN1569
THE COMMISSIONER: Good, thank you very much.
PN1570
MR DALTON: I'll hand that up.
PN1571
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XN MR DALTON
THE COMMISSIONER: Did Mr Slevin get one of those?
PN1572
MR DALTON: He has, yes.
PN1573
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you very much.
PN1574
MR DALTON: Mr Burke, do you have one of these? You may not have?---No.
PN1575
It's not attached to your statement? Mr Burke, are you able to identify that document that I've just handed to you?---Yes.
PN1576
What is it?---It's an aerial shot of our ramp 14, ramp 12 area, specifically noting shovel 33, which is one of our electric shovels on site. The pink line is actually the travel route to the dump point, where basically the - from the digger - from shovel 33 in the right-hand side, it's basically the trucks travel along the pink line. When they get to the black dot, which was the dump on that day where the trucks are actually dumping, the blue box around the black dot is basically identifying the limits of the actual dump location. So the extremities of the dump. So basically how wide it's going to be built, what the footprint of that dump is going to be. The purple line that then travels back towards the top of the page, which notes the truck park-up area or the cribber. So the cribber is basically where the guys have - where the operators have lunch, have smoko - those sort of things. The truck park-up, or otherwise known as the go line, or a go line - a few other references - but the truck park-up is basically an area set up for the trucks to come in and park and for the guys to safely get off the truck.
PN1577
Yes, thank you. I tender that.
PN1578
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. We'll mark the A3 aerial map of ramp 13-14 as exhibit 17. Is that the correct figure?---It's ramp 12, ramp 14.
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XN MR DALTON
PN1579
Ramp 12, ramp 14. Thank you.
EXHIBIT #17 A3 AERIAL MAP OF RAMP 12, RAMP 14
MR DALTON: Commissioner, just to give you the perspective, you might recall that the third map at annexure 1 of Mr Kinderis's first statement - - -
PN1581
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1582
MR DALTON: Mr Kinderis was asked some questions about that. The Red Hill pit you'll see up towards the top.
PN1583
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1584
MR DALTON: And ramp 14, being at the Red Hill pit, is towards the northern extremity of the mine. It's one of the furthest ones away from the start/finish point of Riverside.
PN1585
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much.
PN1586
MR DALTON: Mr Burke, can we start on this overhead shot at the shovel, which his SHE33?---Yes.
PN1587
So that's the shovel excavator unit that's loading the trucks. And that pink line that you've identified as the haul route starts from that point. So if we take an example that you refer to at paragraph 19 of your statement of a truck that takes a load at last load called at 6.20?---Yes.
PN1588
The reason I'm taking you to this is that you expressed the view there that that will allow plenty of time for the operator to take the load at that point in time and be back before 6.55, which is the nominated end of the shift. Mr Goulevitch says that "hit or miss whether the buses from ramps 6 and 14 make it back to the start point by 6.55. Where they're doing so, a proper analysis would likely show that the last loads are actually being collected well before 6.20." So if we can take it that a truck is being loaded by shovel excavator 33 at 6.20, how long does it take to be loaded?---Approximately a minute, maybe two minutes.
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XN MR DALTON
PN1589
All right. So we're at 6.21, and the truck is loaded. The truck then starts the route along the pink line there?---Yes.
PN1590
And that zigzag presumably depicts the ramp as the loaded truck makes its way up the hill?---Yes. So basically the first - as it pulls away from shovel 33, that point, the first turn - it's at the first turn - is actually to go up the ramp to get onto what we know - what we call - as the end wall, which is basically the end of the actual pit itself. So as it takes its first left-hand turn, it goes up the ramp; takes its second left-hand turn; that basically runs along the end wall, which is a relatively flat surface.
PN1591
That's a sort of a ridge that's reasonably flat along a ridge?---Yes.
PN1592
And it goes around to that black dot that you've identified as the dump point or tip point for that shift?---Yes.
PN1593
The blue line that you've identified earlier is I think what you describe as the perimeter for the dumping?---Yes.
PN1594
So the dumps could take place anywhere within that blue perimeter across shifts?
---Yes.
PN1595
Over a period of time?---Yes. So the blue line is the limits or the footprint of the dump that we're actually building, so literally moving the dirt from the shovel over to where the dump is, and it's basically the extremities or the footprint of the actual dump itself, and you're right, through the shifts, through the days, through the weeks, and obviously months as well - it takes a fair while to build that dump up to what it needs to be with the footprint - that dump point can be located anywhere within those blue lines.
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XN MR DALTON
PN1596
And of course that will change the relationship in terms of distance between the dump point and the park-up area adjacent to the crib hunt?---Yes.
PN1597
THE COMMISSIONER: So that's September. Was that significantly different, that arrangement, a month earlier?---No. It takes a fair few months to actually go through and build it to that level, so the way that the dump actually works is that you go and dump out to all of the perimeter, to the extremities of it, and then you take it up to the next lift, which is an elevation, a step change up, where you basically take it up higher.
PN1598
A slightly longer route but not - - -?---Yes. Slightly. Basically more of a higher route, which obviously takes a little bit more time.
PN1599
MR DALTON: The pink line: assuming during the course of the shift - are you able to tell us how long it is approximately for a truck to be loaded, to go up and tip at that black dot that is in this photograph? Just to be clear, let's leave aside the loading, the one minute, so let's just simply identify the travel time because we've already included the one minute. After that loading time, the truck, how long does it take to get to the black dot?---There's actually a - within my statement it's got the modular data for that haul route, so basically if I can - - -
PN1600
Of course, yes?---So it's within - - -
PN1601
What attachment are you reading from, Mr Burke?---JJB1.
PN1602
Yes. Which is the relevant one?---On the right-hand side you can see where it's got shovel 33.
PN1603
Yes?---Ramp 14 north 33. So basically that - and I'm not sure if it's been explained before or not, but this is actually a depiction of - well, a graphic that comes out of the modular system, which is what our dispatchers see, can watch, so basically it measures real-time data or actual data from the dig point back to the dump point and back again. So it's basically taking - taking the same example, obviously it's a slightly different time, but you can see in the box in the centre it says "distance" and it's got 2883, which is 2.8 kilometres. If you go back to the actual - the map here that we're talking to, it's got that the current circuit for shovel 33 is 2.8 kilometres, so basically it's a relatively like-for-like comparison. Obviously there are slightly different times we're now taking, but if you go down through - - -
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XN MR DALTON
PN1604
So is that the entire circuit up and back?---It's as you go - as far as the 2.8 kilometres?
PN1605
Yes?---I believe it is. If you go down through the going haul times, which is a truck going away from the shovel, the specific reference should be the loaded number, which is 7.25 minutes.
PN1606
THE COMMISSIONER: That's coming out of the pit?---Yes. So that's the loaded truck after it's been loaded for the one minute or so from shovel 33, travelling along the defined haul route, which is obviously very similar. It is the same haul route as what's on the actual aerial map to the dump point, so that's 7.25 minutes to travel one way.
PN1607
MR DALTON: All right. And to return empty back to the shovel excavator 33, how long does that take and are we able to glean that from this best path summary that you're referring to?---Yes. So it goes down to where it's got the return haul times, returning haul times, which is back to the dig unit from the dump point, and they return empty. So, using the specific example, it was five minutes 23 to return back from the dump to the dig unit, but the reason for the difference is predominantly that travelling to the dump point has revs, has an uphill travel and is loaded, so the trucks travel slower, and returning back from the dump to the dig unit there's down ramps and the trucks are actually empty, so they're able to safely travel a bit faster.
PN1608
And just the last bit of information in this box "best path summary", round trip haul times: it says "going loaded,"
comma, "returning empty". I take it that that figure of 12.48 would be the sum of those two figures that you've mentioned?
---Yes. So specifically where that information comes from, as I've said, it sits within our modular system. The trucks have GPSs
and modular systems fitted to each truck, so there's a live data feed that comes through, and the two pieces of information that
actually come into calculating these numbers is the average of the four last trucks that go through that area, so using the example
of going from shovel 33 up to the dump, loaded, so seven minutes 25, that's the average of the last four trucks that have actually
gone through that area, so it's a real-time depiction of what it actually takes. For the empty: obviously for the going haul times
empty, there's not a lot of trucks that actually travel away from the dig unit empty. That obviously defeats the purpose. The two
parts of the information that comes in, if there has been trucks that - say they needed to be redirected to a different dig unit
because of a priority change, or they needed to go to refuel and they were located down at the dig unit, or for whatever the reason
is, their average time would then be calculated into that number. If there was no trucks - sorry. I should also say that that actual
average calculation starts and stops at the end of each shift, so that's the way that the modular system actually works. It starts
a shift, calculates all the information for that shift, and then basically there's a restart point at the end of the shift and then
the process keeps going. In the example that there's no trucks that actually travel empty back to the actual dig unit, that number
is used as a bunch of base assumptions that sit within the modular system that - you know, a period of time ago, where it actually
says, "This is the expected travel speed of this specific class of truck over this type of ramp" or "this type of
elevation." That's why the elevation has got - the average grade, sorry, is also noted in there. So, yes, it uses that live
information of distance as well as elevation and the truck class as well as the OEM of the specs to run it.
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XN MR DALTON
PN1609
Thank you. So using those figures that you've taken us to as the indicative times, we're talking about the truck having been loaded at 6.20, allowing a minute there; at 6.21 begins its trip back to the black dot; and going by the data that you've taken us to, we add approximately seven and a half minutes to the 21 minutes, so we're at 28 and a half minutes?---Yes.
PN1610
And at that point the truck will dump the load. How long does it take to do that?
---Generally it doesn't take very long at all. It takes a minute maybe, depending on what's at the dump, so when the truck actually
enters that dump area there's what's called a dump dozer, which is there to - basically once the load of material has been dumped,
it actually pushes the load off the edge, off the pithead, so the dozer will be sitting there waiting, which is basically an indicator
for where the trucks are going to come and dump their load next to the dozer. So if there's a truck in there, obviously actually
dumping at the time, it might take 30 seconds, it might take a minute for that truck.
PN1611
Well, let's allow a minute, so where are we now? We are at 21 plus seven and a half is 28 and a half, plus a minute - 29 and a half minutes?---Yes.
PN1612
Then at that point the truck would head for the park-up area next to the crib - - -?
---Yes.
PN1613
That's the purple line that you've identified in this overview photograph?---Yes.
PN1614
How long is that distance? Sorry, how long does that take to travel that distance in an empty truck?---The exact time on this example, I'm not 100 per cent certain but what I am certain of is that if you refer back to the empty time for the returning truck to travel the 2.8 kilometres, that was only 5.23 minutes, so using that as a reference point - and it's 1.2 kilometres, only take a couple of minutes, maybe three minutes to travel back from the - - -
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XN MR DALTON
PN1615
All right, let's allow three minutes for that. So 6.21 plus seven and a half is 6.28 and a half, plus one minute is 6.29 and a half, plus three minutes is 6.32 and a half. Correct?---Yes.
PN1616
At that point there will be the transportation of the crew back to the point, which I think in coalmining department refers to as a Riverside go line. What do you refer to it in your area?---I'd call that the start point or the Riverside industrial area.
PN1617
And that's the same area, the same point?---Yes. So the actual go line itself - the Riverside go line is the truck park-up that's located at the start point for coalmining. So we all come out of the same start point but we don't have a truck park-up right next to - in that area. We have to actually travel, so that's the difference.
PN1618
All right, so we're at 6.32 and a half. Do we allow a period of time for there to be some discussion and getting in and out of the bus, et cetera?---Yes, you'd say one to two minutes of the time of parking the truck up and basically walking from the truck park-up area to basically the crib hut itself where the bus will be waiting to park up. Obviously this would be the last truck that would be coming into that area, so as far as waiting, there wouldn't be any wait for any other trucks. So I would say only a couple of minutes.
PN1619
All right, so we're at 6.35, and how long does it take for the bus to return to the start/finish point in the industrial area?---In my statement I've said it takes about 15 minutes to travel from this extremity. I suppose this is one of the furthest pits that we've got, furthest travel time, so 15 minutes. The way I've actually got that information obviously got a - prior to putting the statement together is actually doing the run and timing it, and then before coming here as well basically did it again just to reaffirm that they are the right times. Basically I've had between 13 and 14 minutes, so on average about 15 minutes travelling at the required speed.
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XN MR DALTON
PN1620
So that gets them in at about 6.50?---Yes. The point where the bus park-up is is basically an incredibly short walk from the actual park. It's actually the area where the guys sign off and then leave site.
PN1621
Yes. Just for everyone's benefit, just remind us what's the scheduled nominated shift finish time for your crew members?---6.55.
PN1622
If the witness could be shown the dispatch supervisor's software that Mr Kinderis was taken to. It's at JPK4 of his second statement. I think it's available on the screen, Commissioner. I just wanted to clarify something that arose from a question, Commissioner, that you had of - - -
PN1623
THE COMMISSIONER: What was that exhibit again?
PN1624
MR DALTON: JPK4 of the second statement.
PN1625
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
PN1626
MR DALTON: Can you see I'm now using a red dot that you can see on the screen? Do you see that, Mr Burke?---No, sorry.
PN1627
See I'm pointing to the blue box there? Can you see the red - - -?---Yes. Thanks.
PN1628
- - - circling there?---Yes.
PN1629
I just want to ask you, what is that part of the software for the dispatch supervisors?---Just to start off, that's viewed actually in two screens.
PN1630
THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, Mr Dalton, I can't see it. Can you point where - - -
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XN MR DALTON
PN1631
MR DALTON: I took the red off?---Where is it?
PN1632
Do you see the blue? It is hard to see.
PN1633
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I can see it.
PN1634
MR DALTON: Do you see how (indistinct) in red there?
PN1635
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I can now. Thank you.
PN1636
MR DALTON: That's what I'm wanting to draw the witness's attention to.
PN1637
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much.
PN1638
MR DALTON: So you say this is normally on two screens?---Yes.
PN1639
You've seen the part of the software that I'm drawing your attention to?---Yes.
PN1640
I'm just asking you what information is that providing the dispatch supervisor?
---What it basically is - and if you play the footage you'll see that it continues to change.
PN1641
Yes?---What it actually is is that the screen in front of the dispatchers, when there's an exception to the parameters that were set, it actually pops up and asks the dispatcher to either accept that exception or reject that exception. So what that actually means is if you go to the top right-hand side of the screen where it has the large grey box with which - if you look close enough, it's got little dig units and little trucks. You can see that the centre line in between there - basically that depicts - on the left-hand side is the dig unit itself. On the middle is the dump point. Then the right-hand side is the actual travelling back, so that on one side it's travelling away from the dig unit to the dump and the other side is travelling back to the dig unit from the dump empty, and you can see what the - the way the modular system is set up, going back to the graphics that we were talking about before, is that it actually tells you whether - what the expected travel time should be between specific points. But again it comes back to GPS and the trucks, so there's indicators within the actual modular system that says by rights these trucks have been travelling between point A and point B in a time of two minutes, as an example. This truck is now outside of that time and basically what the modular system does on that initial box we were talking about, it pops up and says there's something that's actually changed; there's a truck or piece of equipment out there that is going against what I suppose the assumptions were, if that makes sense. So there's an exception to what we expect to happen. So you can see up on the top right-hand side back into that grey box where, on the travelling back to the dig unit, there's two red - I suppose two trucks with two little red squares underneath it. From what I understand, that's actually flagging as being an exception. So it could be the reason for that, and then obviously the reason for the alert to pop up for the dispatcher to either accept or reject. It might be dusty conditions, which means you have to slow down to minimise the dust. It might be the water cart may have just gone through. It might be a bit wet so they have to drive with a bit more caution. It might be driving slow off a - no, any specific reason. The intention is that it pops up as an exception, so then the dispatcher can either accept it because they know why it's there or why it's happened, or they can go and investigate further by asking the truck driver what's happening.
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XN MR DALTON
PN1642
How is that exception information communicated by operators to the dispatch people? Do they have a unit in their truck that enables them to send that message through?---Yes, so there's two parts of communication for each truck operator. So one side is the modular system itself - or the GOIC it's referred to out in the field - which you can literally send - just like a text message or an email, you can send a message on the GOIC back to the dispatcher. That will pop up and they can see it, or there's the two-way radio which is in there, which the dispatcher also has access to.
PN1643
Yes. Just one other point of clarification. You mentioned that once the crew members arrive at the start/finish point of the industrial area it's very close for them to sign off. I just want to understand exactly where the TAMS data - at what point the TAMS data records a person finishing work. Is it after they've signed off?---Yes, it's basically - the way that the TAMS system is set up is there's literally a fence around the actual operational area of the mine, or around it, that surrounds the mine. There's an entry gate where all the operators - all, basically, the mine personnel have to go in and out of the site, but it's literally at the very extremities of the actual mine itself. So there's the - where the operators, myself, actually park their car is in a carpark, like a public carpark. You basically walk to the fence, or walk to the gate. When you swipe your TAMS card to enter site, which is a turnstile, that's when it actually records it. So the bathhouse itself, as an example, which is where the operators have lockers, where they have a shower if they want to - those sort of things - where they can leave their work boots behind, that's all within - inside the actual TAMS gate.
PN1644
Yes?---So using the example of the operators leaving, using one example of an operator who normally has a shower on site, as an example, leaves their boots on site, leaves their hard hat on site, they would leave to get off the bus, back at the start point. They would work the very short distance. There's the sign-off book, which is part of my evidence as well, where they basically sign off, to say that they've safely arrived back at the start point. Then they'd walk the 30 or so metres into the bathhouse. They'd put their gear away, take their boots off, go and have a shower, do whatever it is they need to do, get into clean clothes, and then walk out, swipe through the gate, then go into the public carpark. So the swiping through the gate is the point that the TAMS data actually picks up that says that they've come in from that.
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XN MR DALTON
PN1645
You have production targets in your pre-strip department?---Yes.
PN1646
How is that production target in terms of volume derived? How do you calculate the volumes that you have to achieve?---Yes. So there's three key things that go into it. This happens as part of forming the actual budget itself, to give you the overall volume for the year. So there's three key things that go into that calculation for the total volume. One is the availability of the machines. So that's the amount of time that the actual machine is going to be available, ready to be operated.
PN1647
Just stopping you there. So what factors influence the availability of the machine?---It's all around maintenance. So if a machine breaks down that negatively affects the availability. If a machine needs a service - just like your car needs a service - then that gets taken off. That reduces the availability.
PN1648
And for your targets, are you able to tell us what percentage availability is expected?---From there - it does fluctuate between each piece of equipment.
PN1649
Yes?---What we've been striving for is about an 85 per cent availability for the trucks and a higher availability than that for the dig units.
PN1650
Thank you. Continue. That was the first element going towards the volume targets that you mentioned?---Yes.
PN1651
So basically that gives you how much time the equipment is actually available.
PN1652
Yes?---Then the second part is the utilisation. So that's how much of the available time we actually utilise the equipment. So that takes into account, using the shift handover as an example. So when the dig unit is parked, after its last load, at 6.20, basically the point after that, because it's no longer being utilised, it negatively affects that utilisation figure. So there is an assumption that's out there.
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XN MR DALTON
PN1653
What's the figure that you expect to achieve?---Again it fluctuates between the equipment, but it's about 85 per cent. From my understanding it's about 85 per cent for the dig units and it's about 75 per cent, give or take, for the trucks.
PN1654
And that 85 per cent utilisation of trucks, what if any assumptions are made about how shift changeovers are to be effected to achieve that 85 per cent figure?---So we assume that the actual - the 85 per cent includes the downtime for the actual - the changeover that happens at the moment. That's the 6.20 last load, and basically a 6.45 start.
PN1655
Yes?---So that's the base-level assumption. And again it's obviously across the whole year. It's across a number of different dig units, so it does fluctuate, but that's some of the base-level assumptions that go into it.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SLEVIN [12.44PM]
MR SLEVIN: So for a truck, if your aim is 75 per cent utilisation, does that mean six hours a day that it won't be available to be used? 75 per cent of 24 hours is 18 hours. So six hours downtime for a truck per day?---If that's the calculation, yes. I haven't done a calculation, but yes.
PN1657
In your statement you set out your experience. It appears that your experience in pre-strip roles at this mine is just the last 12 months - just around the last 12 months. Is that correct?---At this moment? Yes.
PN1658
Prior to that you were at Norwich Park for two years. That's correct?---Yes.
PN1659
And that was in a contract pre-strip superintendent role?---Yes.
PN1660
Prior to that you were a contracts adviser at South Walker Creek Mine. What's a contracts adviser do?---I, in that role - and there was a similar role when I was at Goonyella Riverside prior to going to South Walker. The role is to work through - to basically assist in the management of our pre-strip contractors. So that forms part of a wider team which reviews the financial side of the actual claim that comes in, paying for the contractor to move pre-strip, to work with the contract pre-strip superintendent to help him better optimise the dig units, the fleets, the planning assumptions. There's a number of different things in that that role actually does.
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1661
So that's contractors on the mine. It's not contracts for the sale of coal or anything like that?---No. It's contract pre-strip operator, so it's the same. In my current role now I look after BMA pre-strip, or some of the BMA pre-strip operators, and it's the same principle, but it's run by a contract organisation.
PN1662
So your experience at this mine - at the Goonyella Riverside Mine - is two years when you first started nine years ago?---Yes.
PN1663
You first started in the mining industry?---I had previous history before that so I've - - -
PN1664
You've just got "general labourer" in your statement. It's got "general labourer on mine sites"?---Yes. So I started my career in the mine site as a general labourer. I then had experience in the wash plants, in the warehouse, and then in contracts areas in other mine sites as well.
PN1665
Yes?---So my contracts adviser experience and my experience around pre-strip operations overall it started when I was back at Kurra Mine.
PN1666
So is your statement wrong in paragraph 4 where it says, "Before I commenced working in the coalmining industry, I worked as
a general labourer." From what you've just told me, you worked as a general labourer in the mining industry?
---My statement might be generalised for that specific point, but the - so before I was a general labourer, then I entered the mine
site for a period of time as a number of different roles from within my mining experience. So, yes, I did do general labouring work
within the mining industry and prior to the industry as well.
PN1667
I just want to get a time line for this. Nine years ago, in 2004, you started at Goonyella Riverside Mine. Before you started at Goonyella Riverside Mine, you did some general labouring. So before 2004 you did some general labouring in what industry?---Sorry, I'm a little bit lost. Can you just take me back to the clause you're referring to?
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1668
Paragraph 4 of your statement?---Yes. So within paragraph 2 it talks about working at BHP for approximately five years, and that's the contracts adviser, and going to Norwich Park and South Walker Creek. Then before that - sorry. So, yes, I have worked in my experience I was just talking about, which was at Kurra Mine, and BMA Blackwater Mine, as a contractor - - -
PN1669
So before 2004. Before 2004 you worked at Kurra Mine?---No, before - five years ago, before - so for the last five years I've worked for BHP, and before that I worked as a contractor within the industry.
PN1670
I see. Just from that experience, you've never actually operated equipment?---No, I've never operated a rear dump truck, no.
PN1671
Or any other piece of equipment; a dozer, or a loader, or - - -?---No pre-strip equipment have I operated, no.
PN1672
You say in paragraph 27 that when you started as pre-strip superintendent six months ago, last loads were routinely taken at 6.20 and then you say, "Based on my experience in the pre-strip department and from what I understand was standard practice for many years, last loads have been taken at 6.20." Your experience in the pre-strip department is just the last 12 months?---Yes. So my role prior to the pre-strip superintendent was the process control superintendent, which is going through and it's specifically to assist the BMA pre-strip manager, the pre-strip superintendents, to further optimise what they're actually doing, so as far as my understanding of the first and last load and all of those sort of - I suppose the understanding of the trends and the data and all of those sort of things, that was part of my role in the process control superintendent.
PN1673
The question was just about the time?---Yes.
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1674
And I think your answer to it was just the last 12 months. Is that right?---It was the last 12 months, yes.
PN1675
So in terms of your understanding of standard practice for many years, is that based on things that others have told you, is it?---So it's based on my other team members. So the BMA pre-strip superintendent who was in the role before I took on the role, who had been there for a number of years as an operator - - -
PN1676
Is the answer to my question, "Yes, others told me"?---Yes.
PN1677
Thank you?---Others told me.
PN1678
Paragraph 29. You say, "We are paying them 40 minutes' overtime and we expect them to do a hot-seat changeover, not a cold-seat changeover, where the truck is parked up for 30 to 60 minutes at shift change." When you say they're paid 40 minutes' overtime, that's not the case, is it? The operators in your department are all on a base salary. They don't get an overtime component in their weekly pay. That's correct, isn't it?---From what I understand, the way that that base rate has been build includes a 40-minute overtime.
PN1679
That's something someone else has told you? You're not asserting that they're paid 40 minutes' overtime per shift, are you?---What I'm saying is they're getting paid 12 hours and 40 minutes as per the EA.
PN1680
Thank you. You've seen the TAMS data in your statement about the percentage of the people leaving and when they leave. I want to ask you about that. It's paragraph 33 so that you've got those figures in front of you?---Yes.
PN1681
So you've got, "Approximately 4 per cent of all offgoing pre-strip operators perform little or no work beyond the 12-hour mark," so that's people who have - when you're talking about "little or no work" are you talking about production work?---I'm talking about they've actually left site.
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1682
Thank you. And then "On average approximately 88 per cent of all outgoing pre-strip operators left the mine between 6.15 am and 6.59 am"?---Yes.
PN1683
So that's the time that the outgoing pre-strip operators left the site again. This is not truck drivers; this is everyone who is covered by pre-strip?---Pre-strip operators, yes.
PN1684
Those two figures add up to 92 per cent. What's going on with the other 8 per cent?---I don't have all of the data in front of me obviously, but there is a portion of people who we've excluded out of those numbers due to they have left significantly earlier during the month of August, which is the actual month we're referring to, so from what I understand they've actually been taken out as well. So if someone goes home sick, as an example, we wouldn't necessarily be using them in that calculation, so they make up a portion of that, and then obviously the remainder of people would be people who have actually left later than 6.55. So from the analysis that I've done or been part of, it's basically that the vast majority of people within that small portion of people who left site after 6.55, between 5 to and 5 past 7, were also gone. There was only - there was not a vast majority of people who leave significantly after the end of site - end of the shift, sorry.
PN1685
So that 8 per cent are made up of people who leave after the end of shift and some people who leave earlier in the day for reasons that you're not aware of?---Well, for reasons. I don't have the specific examples.
PN1686
In giving your answer, you said you don't have the data in front of you. I think you do at annexure 3 to your statement.
PN1687
THE COMMISSIONER: What's the total sample, do you know, of that workforce?
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1688
MR SLEVIN: The total number of pre-strip operators?
PN1689
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1690
MR SLEVIN: Mr Burke, do you - - -?---The sample itself was - I think it's about 2100 entry and exit data points. We have between - 360 operators within pre-strip.
PN1691
THE COMMISSIONER: 360?---Yes, and I think the data for August was a little bit over 2100 entries or exits that are utilised.
PN1692
MR SLEVIN: If you can open up attachment 3 to your statement?---Yes.
PN1693
I just want to take you to a couple of dates. If we start at 10 August. If you go to 6.53 pm. This data is not organised chronology, it's organised numerically by time, so we've got a.m's and p.m's intermingled, it appears. Did you put this data together? Is that how it printed out?---I got some - we got some assistance with this data. I didn't specifically put it together, no.
PN1694
All right. We'll see if you can assist. So the end of shift on 10 August is those who left at 6.53.47. You see that?---Is this 6.53.47 pm?
PN1695
p.m., that's right. So that's pre-strip D2. What's pre-strip D2?---So the way that the crews are set up, so that's the way the operators are separated, is between - sort of is at two levels. So the first level is - there's four panels, which is A, B, C, D and then within each of those panels there's five different dig units, so the way that they're separated out is D1, as in using D crew as an example - D1, D2, D3, D4, D5. So 1 relates back to 1 of the specific dig units. D2 would relate back to the second dig unit; D3, D4, D5.
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1696
Can you just see that it goes 6.53.47 pm and then it goes 7.00.30 am. What's happening there? Is that showing the end of the night shift that started on 9 August, is it?---Yes. From what I understand, yes. So it looks like it's been sorted, like you said, with the actual times itself, not taking into account a.m. and p.m.
PN1697
Thank you. So if we have a look at 7 am, we've got pre-strip A3, someone who's on pre-strip A3 leaving. That's five minutes after shift time, isn't it?---Yes.
PN1698
I think, looking at your statement at the next annexure, the buses that go into town, about the same time the bus to town is leaving?---Yes.
PN1699
So they've either missed the bus or they're rushing for the bus at 7.00.30?---No. So the couple - one qualification point around the way that the actual people are set up at the moment within our HR system, we haven't got them, I suppose, designated to their 100 per cent correct crew. So what that means is that when you look through, you've got A3 - pre-strip A3, A3, A1, A3, A2, A3, A1. Basically they're all coming from the same dig unit, that's why there's a wave off people. So their bus may have broken, down, they might have been delayed for a number of different reasons for that on that day, however you can see they've all come in on big hit, which is around about the size of our transport buses which we travel backwards and forwards from the actual dig unit back to the start point in. So that's what that would indicate. So we have a supervisor allocated to each fleet, and basically the supervisors' start times is 5.30 to basically 6.30 to 7.00. We always have - we have one supervisor for the last few months, which I think I've mentioned in my statement as well. One supervisor or dispatch will actually stay back to ensure that all of the people get back to the start point. So using this specific example, when there's a crew of people who are running late, we would - the supervisor obviously is waiting, making sure they're getting back safely, making sure that the bus - they'll go out and make sure the bus actually waits for those guys to come back in before the bus leaves. If they miss the bus, then that supervisor's obligation is to actually make sure that those people get transported back into town if they don't have their own transport.
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1700
I think we have two buses going there. So are you saying to me that what appears to have happened on - at 7 o'clock in the morning on 10 August is that the bus from the go line to the start place - so they park the truck up at the go line, and the bus from the go line to the start place has obviously come in late because there's a number of people who are leaving after 7 o'clock?---Yes.
PN1701
That was the first proposition. So that's what you suggest that is telling us. What you were then telling us is in those circumstances, you would expect there would be a supervisor who'd run outside and stop the bus going back to town so that it waits for these people?---Well, we wouldn't - there is a supervisor who would be keeping in contact - radio contact with the crew coming backing, so obviously the bus has a two-way system, the supervisors have access to two-way systems making sure we're understanding where the locations of the buses are, because obviously - - -
PN1702
You said buses on site. I'm talking about the bus going to town?---Yes.
PN1703
The bus going off site?---So the supervisor would be aware that there is a likelihood that this bus might be coming in late. Obviously it knows how a supervisor could understand what the specific situation was, and before that bus leaves, he can either - he can make a decision, depending on how many people there are, to go out and ask - and basically tell the bus driver to wait or organise alternative arrangements for them to travel in. So we have - - -
PN1704
The bus into town is a big bus, is it?---It's a coach, yes.
PN1705
So everybody who finished at 6.55 and got on the 7 o'clock bus to go back into town had to wait for this crew to come back in and get through the TAMS gate and get into the bus?---Yes.
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1706
So the small bus held up the big bus?---Yes. That's the - if you - as far as the specific example was, I'm not 100 per cent sure of what happened on that shift, but if there was an excessive delay in the people coming back, we organise alternative arrangements where people get transport into town in a light vehicle, in a car.
PN1707
So for example on that day, there was someone who came out at 7.15?---Yes.
PN1708
So quite possible that the big bus waited until 7.08, it didn't wait until 7.15 and the supervisor organised for the one person who came out at 7.15 to get a lift into town. That's a scenario that may well have occurred?---A scenario that may well have also occurred is that that operator wanted to have a shower, had their own transport, wasn't - didn't need to rush off site to leave, so there is a number of different scenarios. Again, without knowing the specific day, specific people that are involved, I'm not sure.
PN1709
If we go back a step to the small bus being late, the small bus is late and there could be any number of reasons why the small bus was late. But it's the case, isn't it, that the small bus waits at the go line until the last truck has parked up. That's the case, isn't?---Yes.
PN1710
So we're moving backwards now. That last truck has parked up because that truck was the 6.20 last load. That's the case, isn't it?---Yes.
PN1711
So if the last load took longer than the time frames that you set out earlier, then the bus has to wait for that last load, doesn't it?---Generally, yes. If - using - again using your hypothetical scenario, if that truck - that last truck broke down for a specific reason, the operator wasn't able to leave, then the supervisor - again going back to the supervisor who's staying back, whose specific task it is to make sure everyone gets offsite safely within the right time, he'd go and organise alternative transport for that specific operator.
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1712
Lets just stay at the pit for the moment. The reason the last load came in late is because the estimated time frame for that run may well have blown out for some reason?---It could happen. As a hypothetical it could, because that truck might break down on that circuit.
PN1713
You gave the breakdown example. I just want to suggest to you that there are a number of variables or a number of contingencies or exigencies that might give rise to that last truck arriving late?---Again, going back to the scenario with the dispatch and using the data we were talking about, if the average travel time for that truck was to significantly - or the truck's to significantly start to increase, then the dispatcher would continue to get those alerts or those reports that would actually come up on the screen that they'd have to either accept or reject. So again, live data coming back to the dispatcher to say whether the actual travel time is in the dusty - it's a dusty circuit example. The travel time is getting longer and longer than what was assumed, so then obviously the dispatcher needs to make - the reason for the dispatcher being there is to make decisions, to make sure that we can get these people back in time.
PN1714
But on this occasion it's been late?---It has been late.
PN1715
Caused the bus to be late?---For a number of - - -
PN1716
I just want to go - there are a number of variables?---Yes.
PN1717
Those variables may be that there was a problem with the haul road that needed to be sorted out?---The - you're right. It could be a variable, but the likelihood of it - - -
PN1718
Just a minute. Perhaps - so your answer is yes, that could be one of the reasons?
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XXN MR SLEVIN
---My answer is that the specific reasons that could cause that one truck to be affected, but it's much more likely that if there was a haul road or dusty conditions or those sort of things, it would impact a number of trucks. That's my answer.
PN1719
It may be that in collecting the last load, something happened at the load point that held the truck up. There are a number of things that can happen at a load point that will hold the truck up, aren't there?---There is. Again, similar scenario where - there is a few examples where it can be instantaneous for that one truck, but there is more likelihood that it would be for a number of trucks.
PN1720
One of the instances that may affect that one truck is it was just a - there was spillage when the load occurred. That would be one variable that would affect one truck on one particular load, isn't it?---It could be, but the time frame to actually clean that spillage that you're referring to is very minor. So the set-up is that you have a dig unit operator, you also have a dozer operator at the face who basically can clean up that spillage instantaneously. So the amount of time that you're referring to that could be pushed back, I would think it would be minuscule.
PN1721
You mentioned dust events. There might be a dust event that would slow the truck up?---A dust event specifically wouldn't be one truck, it would be a number of trucks. So again, that alert would be coming up. But as far as the time that would be required for that last truck to do its last load, and if it has been a significantly dusty day, as an example, the dispatcher again would understand that it's taking longer than anticipated or expected to travel for the number of trucks, therefore obviously the dispatcher needs to make the decisions around the actual time that the trucks park up and basically communicate that out, so we don't have people coming in late.
PN1722
So you've described there that there are a number of ways that supervisors or dispatch operators might deal with problems of times not being met. That's what you're getting at in those answers?---Yes. It's a live feed of real-time data out there through a modular system.
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1723
But it's also the case that from time to time they don't pick up those things, and the last truck is late?---Yes. Again, it's that instantaneous issue. What you're referring to here is that it could be more than just the time of the last truck. So there could be issues with travelling back, the bus might get a flat tyre, as an instantaneous example, whatever the scenario could be. There are a number of different ones.
PN1724
Or the bus could run into traffic on the road back to the start point?---Yes and no. We're not talking Brisbane city traffic on those roads, but yes, there could be another vehicle broken down on the road, there could be a truck that's broken down on a crossing of the haul road. There are a number of different examples that you could use.
PN1725
So these things happen, and on 10 August, it appears that something happened to cause these people to come in late?---Yes, for that one truck. Also, using the 10 August example, there is a significant number of people who have left well before that 6.55 mark as well. So I think the intention - - -
PN1726
(indistinct) for those who got back at 7 o'clock, but you're saying some of the operators got back earlier, so that's okay? Is that what you're saying?---No, what I'm saying is that it's definitely not okay, and we don't treat it as being okay that the buses are late, people leave late. So every time there's actually employees who - or the buses are getting back late, the supervisor who stays back, or the dispatch who stays back, has to ring me. So whether it's 7 o'clock on a Saturday morning or 7 o'clock on a Friday night we've had a bus come in late, their obligation is to actually alert it to me, and I need to understand why and investigate it so we can stop it from happening. But going back to the original clause you're referring to, the average time for the people to leave is 6.34. So that's day shift and night shift. Again, this is just my interpretation of the EA. The way it's structured is that obviously it's not okay to be late, but the intention is that they don't - it's mostly a swings and roundabouts approach, where there's a number of times that people leave early, and there's only a handful of times where people leave late.
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1727
We'll go to the 12 August one, and look at 6.55 am?---6.55 am?
PN1728
6.55.17 am. There we've got pre-strip C2, off site at 6.55.17. So that's the end of the shift time?---Yes.
PN1729
Now, if we go down, we've got someone leaving at - go down 11 entries, down to 7.14?---Yes.
PN1730
Those 11 entries are the a.m. entries, just ignoring the p.m. entries. So that morning there were 11 late. That looks like another example where a bus hasn't come in from one of the pits to the start point. Is that a similar example to the one we were just talking about, do you think?---Without knowing the specifics, I would say yes.
PN1731
Similar circumstances apply, in that the bus to town, you would expect, would be held up to make sure those people could get on the bus, or other arrangements would be made?---Yes. I think it's important to understand too that - I don't have the specific numbers, obviously, but the amount of people who actually still drive their own light vehicle, or their own cars to site and, you know, organise their own commuting arrangements, as opposed to using the company-provided bus, there's still a fair few people who do that. Obviously I don't have the specific data, but the amount of people who actually use the bus I think would be far outweighed by the people who drive their own cars to and from site.
PN1732
If we go to 15 August at 6.55 pm?---Yes.
PN1733
That looks like a similar incident?---Again, without knowing the specifics, I would say it could be.
PN1734
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XXN MR SLEVIN
If you go to 20 August, at 7.04 pm to 7.15 pm, there seem to be 16 people on that occasion. That's a similar example to the ones
we've been talking about?
---Without knowing the specifics, yes.
PN1735
Then lastly 26 August, which is 6.55 am, if you have a look at that. The last person leaving that day is 7.23. There are a number of a.m. times there. There's actually - it looks like two. We're confused by the way the data is organised. If we go to the a.m. people, we start at 6.55.36, and we go down to 7 o'clock. So that looks like a bus as well?---Again, without knowing the specifics, it could be, yes.
PN1736
Then that same day we've got some people at 7.08 to 7.23. So that looks like, again, a bus from one of the pits - - -?---I'd probably disagree with that point. I think that the number of people that you're talking about - our buses are quite large, so I don't know what the specific example could be for that one.
PN1737
There are six operators there. Are you assisted by the notation in the first column, which is pre-strip C2, A2, A1, A1?---Yes.
PN1738
You described those as being allocations to excavators earlier. Does that assist you in working out whether that looks like it was a bus of truck drivers coming in from a pit?---No, because as I said earlier, the actual reporting within our HR system at the moment is not fully up to date. But also, it's more so that the number of people that we've got on that bus - our buses seat about 18 people, so you'd probably see a bus would be a lot more full than that. That's why I'd say it might be a slightly different example. But again, without knowing the specifics, I couldn't really comment.
PN1739
Now, in relation to the last call, or the call for the last load, it's standard, isn't it, in pre-strip that 6.20 is the time - it's a bit different to the coalmine operations where it seems individual trucks are given their last load by the dispatchers because the dispatchers are more engaged with the coal trucks to get the mix right to the different ROMs. Pre-strip seems to be different, they're more left to their own devices because they're just doing one circuit and moving dirt from one place to another. Is that a fair assessment?---I don't think so. I think that the functionality you're referring to - I understand the generalisation, but I think that the specific example you're referring to - there is - in pre-strip we don't use that same functionality, that tool that our coalmining brothers do. Obviously a complexity of that is that the circuits - one of the reasons for that is that the circuits are actually contained, so where containing has a lot of variability over which ROM to go to, where to travel, there's a lot of variables out there. Pre-strip circuits, as you saw in the first example, it's relatively contained. So as far as the dispatch or understanding, what's happening on that circuit, they're allowed the ability, again using the modular system, to make a more holistic decision as to whether this group of trucks is actually going to be able to get back or not, because again they've got the live data for all of the trucks, as opposed to the amount of variability that coalmining have, where it might be one truck at the moment has to travel to one of our wash plants and the other truck needs to travel to the other wash plant, so a lot more variability. That's one of the reasons why we don't use that. So it's not exactly left to your own devices, I don't agree with that, it's more that it's more of a contained circuit, which is easier for the dispatcher to make.
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1740
So if we go back to exhibit 17, your map, what will occur here is, at the beginning of the shift, the oncoming shift will come on, they will get into a truck. They will drive it to and from on that pink line for the whole shift. They don't go out onto any other haul roads, et cetera. They simply drive that pink line back and forth, back and forth. That's what happens, isn't it?---Generally, yes. So there is instances where they need to travel to the fuel farm, as an example, to get fuel. So there is those variabilities in there. There might be an instance where the truck needs to be taken to the workshop for a specific reason. There might be a need to reallocate the trucks to a different dig unit, as an example, if shovel 33 actually went down for maintenance or had a breakdown of some description and there was the ability to relocate those trucks to a different dig unit that was still available, because, you know, the time frame for shovel 33 being down for a maintenance concern could be pretty extensive. So we can work through and change that truck, change those trucks to a different circuit. But generally if we're talking holistically in general terms, yes, they go backwards and forwards.
PN1741
So typically the shift is that pink line, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth?---Generally, and going back into the crib hut to get changed out for what we call the staggerers or when the primary truck operator, I suppose, goes for lunch or wants to have - they have two breaks during the shift. They will travel back into the crib hut at the park-up area. So they would have travelled in. Someone will swap them out, as in someone would get on that truck and then continue to operate it while that initial operator has crib or lunch, and then the truck would come back in and they'd swap back over again. So through the shift the truck itself, the life of the truck, under general terms it would travel from that crib hut to the dig, to that pink line, and travel backwards and forwards. It would travel in there twice with that initial operator for crib or for lunch; two breaks. It would probably even travel out to go and get fuel and it would travel back in there at the end of shift.
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1742
Thank you, Mr Burke. Nothing further, Commissioner.
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DALTON [1.22PM]
MR DALTON: Just one question. You might recall you were asked some questions in relation to your evidence in your statement about the 6.20 last loads call routinely being the practice and you confirmed that you were able to give that evidence by direct observation over the last 12 months since you've been in this role?---Yes.
PN1744
And you were asked some questions at to the basis upon which you made that statement for the time before you started in that role?---Yes.
PN1745
You confirmed that it was based on what other people had told you, but you wanted to tell the commission the people who had told you that?---Yes.
PN1746
Who were those people and what positions did they hold?---So probably the BMA pre-strip superintendent who was in the role before I took over the role, so he was - Mark Miller was his name. He's been there for a number of years, significantly longer than I've been there, and he started as an operator and had come through. He was the BMA pre-strip superintendent, as I said before. Basically he was one of the key people who actually told me that the 6.20 is what's been the norm for a number of years. He ran through some of the history of when he was in the superintendent role, where he gives expectations to the supervisors and out to the crew and things like that, and so there's - as far as the amount of knowledge or the understanding of the history around what we do and don't do, what the normal practice has been for a period of time, he was the key source. There was a number of other people, operators included; dispatchers, supervisors, who have been there for longer than I have that confirmed that as well as being 6.20.
PN1747
**** JOSHUA JOHN BURKE RXN MR DALTON
No more questions.
PN1748
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much. Thank you for giving your evidence, Mr Burke. You're free to go.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [1.23PM]
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Neil, what's our plan?
PN1750
MR NEIL: We'll keep calling witnesses as long as anyone wants to cross-examine them or hear from them.
PN1751
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Slevin, you're under pressure today with the cross-examination. Are you happy to keep - you're not showing the pressure, I should say.
PN1752
MR SLEVIN: No. I wouldn't mind having some lunch though. I'm not showing my hunger either.
PN1753
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Let's just go off the record for a minute, thanks.
<LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [1.24PM]
<RESUMED [2.05PM]
PN1754
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, please be seated. Thank you, Mr Neil.
PN1755
MR NEIL: Commissioner, with the good offices of our learned friend, we've come to an accommodation which will shorten matters this afternoon. You will recall that we have put to each of our witnesses today in-chief - or given each of them an opportunity to deal with the concepts of the availability rate, the utilisation rate, the production target and the relationships between those three things, together with the relationship between the utilisation rate and the shift changeover arrangements.
PN1756
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1757
MR NEIL: Our learned friend has told us that he will accept that if we gave the same opportunity to each of our witnesses, they would give evidence to the same effect, evidence to the same effect - - -
PN1758
THE COMMISSIONER: He's a betting man, that Mr Slevin.
PN1759
MR SLEVIN: Sorry?
PN1760
THE COMMISSIONER: He's a betting man.
PN1761
MR NEIL: I think he's backed the right horse on this one. But in any event, that's the arrangement, and on that basis we won't need to ask for leave to deal with those subject matters orally.
PN1762
THE COMMISSIONER: All right.
PN1763
MR NEIL: The next witnesses will be taken by my learned friend, Mr Dalton, and I wonder if - unless, Commissioner, you have anything more of me - whether you'd be good enough to excuse me for a few moments.
PN1764
THE COMMISSIONER: No, just in terms of, from my point of view, I will obviously just deal with the material in relation to those. I'm not going to extrapolate that those witnesses would have said the same thing. I'm just going to deal with the evidence as provided by those particular witnesses.
PN1765
MR NEIL: Yes, but you could legitimately go one step further and act on the basis that if they'd been given the opportunity, they would give evidence to the same effect, because that's what we've agreed. In effect, it's admitted.
PN1766
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Mr Slevin's content with that.
PN1767
MR NEIL: It's not a contested issue.
PN1768
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. It won't appear in the witness summary though - in the witness summary in relation to those, if it comes, you know - - -
PN1769
MR NEIL: It won't. But we will be submitting that they are concepts that apply across all departments of the respondent's operations.
PN1770
THE COMMISSIONER: That's been accepted, Mr Slevin?
PN1771
MR SLEVIN: Yes, that's accepted.
PN1772
THE COMMISSIONER: All right, thank you. Thanks for that clarification.
PN1773
MR NEIL: So, Commissioner, if you would be good enough, may I be excused for a few moments?
PN1774
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1775
MR NEIL: Mr Dalton will continue.
PN1776
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much. Mr Dalton?
PN1777
MR DALTON: I call Justin Sampson.
PN1778
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much.
<JUSTIN ROBERT SAMPSON, AFFIRMED [2.08PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DALTON [2.08PM]
MR DALTON: Mr Sampson, could you state for the purposes of the transcript recording, your full name and your work address?---Justin Robert Sampson and Goonyella Riverside Mine care of Moranbah, Queensland.
PN1780
You're employed by BHP Coal as the drill and blast superintendent at the Goonyella Riverside Mine?---Yes.
PN1781
That's a position you've held for about 12 months?---About six, seven months now.
PN1782
Right, and before that?---Was contracts prestrip superintendent, which I was - - -
PN1783
At the same mine?---Same mine.
PN1784
You've prepared a statement for this proceeding?---Yes.
PN1785
Have you got a copy of that in front of you?---I do.
PN1786
Are the contents of that statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge?
---They are.
PN1787
I tender that.
PN1788
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. We'll mark the statement of Mr Justin Robert Sampson as exhibit 18 in the proceedings.
EXHIBIT #18 STATEMENT OF JUSTIN ROBERT SAMPSON
**** JUSTIN ROBERT SAMPSON XN MR DALTON
PN1789
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Dalton.
PN1790
MR DALTON: No questions, Commissioner.
PN1791
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much. Mr Slevin?
PN1792
MR SLEVIN: Thank you.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SLEVIN [2.10PM]
MR SLEVIN: It seems from your background in your statement, Mr Sampson, that you've only done drill and blast type work at the mine for the last six months?---At Goonyella Riverside Mine, yes, that's correct.
PN1794
You started as superintendent at a time where targets were not being met, and it seems that 62 per cent of targets only were being met. Is that the case?---That's correct.
PN1795
In response to that, you made a number of changes to the way things were done. Is that correct?---That's correct.
PN1796
Was one of the things you did reduce targets from 700 metres per shift to 500 metres per shift per employee?---No, I didn't reduce any targets. We have actually just put some science around our targets to actually look at - with the basis of utilisation and availability, what is an achievable target and actually try and work through the process to - - -
PN1797
Was there a change from 700 metres to 550 metres as a result of what you just said? Is that - - -?---Some months have been a 550 metre target and some are actually 700. It depends on the month.
**** JUSTIN ROBERT SAMPSON XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1798
So what change was it that you introduced in relation to the targets? That it would be a month by month exercise, is that it?---No, I believe that would have been the same prior to me being there. However, with the introduction of lean boards we just became more visible to the guys on the ground in the workforce.
PN1799
I see, all right. So am I right then to say that the information provided to the guys was better after you came on. Is that what you're saying?---I believe so, yes.
PN1800
Did you introduce some changes in relation to maintenance crews?---I didn't introduce any changes to maintenance crews myself, that's not my department. However, we actually have started to engage the maintenance guys further to actually improve the availability of the machines, yes.
PN1801
Is part of that engagement to get drill checks done in the field?---Yes.
PN1802
There's also been some changes as to the frequency of planned maintenance as well. Correct?---I don't believe there's been any change to the frequency. However, we actually are doing more daily checks to actually try and identify things earlier and - - -
PN1803
So you're better planning the maintenance, the planned maintenance?---I believe so, yes.
PN1804
In your statement you give us some TAMS data about the times that crews are leaving, and I'll ask you to open up your statement at paragraph 27, please. Now, you've got, 2 per cent of all offgoing drill operators performed little or no work beyond the 12 hour mark. So is that the percentage of operators leaving the mine before the 12 hour mark?---Yes. From the August data that we took a snapshot of, yes, that's correct.
**** JUSTIN ROBERT SAMPSON XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1805
Yes, for that month. Then 87 per cent are leaving the mine between 6.00 and 6.40. So that speaks for itself. That's 89 per cent,
that leaves 11 per cent. What's happening with those other 11 per cent? Are they leaving the mine after 6.40?
---Yes, that's correct. There's a variety of reasons for that, but I guess without giving individual circumstances, there's some
rescue guys that have actually been a little bit late leaving and there's also been an emergency just around the shift change which
has had an impact on that as well.
PN1806
We might be assisted by just having a brief look at the data, which is attached to your statement at JRS3. Would you mind opening that up for you, and if we have read the first page and we go to 2 August, you see if you go down to - the shift changeover time for the drillers is 6.40, isn't it? So if we go down on the left-hand column to 6.42.59, GRM Drills A. 6.44.24, which was someone identified as GRM Drills A as well, and the same for 6.45.01. That appears to be half of a shift. You have six guys on a shift. Is that right?---Generally, yes.
PN1807
It seems that half of the shift are leaving after the 6.40 mark. Is there any reason why - are you able to assist as to why half of the drillers are leaving after the end of the shift on that day?---No. I don't have any recollection of that actual shift change on that day, no.
PN1808
So there are a number of examples throughout this data that you've given, and I'll take you to another one. 10 August, which is over the next page in the left-hand side, we've got 6.40.25, 6.40.56 and 6.42.37 as a time leaving, and it seems to be GRM Drills A again, and half of that crew are leaving right at the end of the shift. Is there any explanation why half are leaving in that way?---Without actually going back and having a look at the exact date and who the people were and where they were working, a fair assumption would be that they may have been at a further part of the mine, or that they've actually been held up with doing some paperwork with supervisors, lodging paperwork at the end of a shift. But without being actually able to go back and look at the data, that's an assumption.
**** JUSTIN ROBERT SAMPSON XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1809
Now if we go over to the next column and we go down to 14 August, we've got GRM Drills B at 6.41, 6.47 and 6.47. Now, is that the same, that you can't tell us why it is that they've left after the 12.40 mark?---No, that's correct.
PN1810
If you go over to 20 August at 6.39.46, there's GRM Drills A and then GRM Drills D, 6.43, and then GRM Drills D is 4.43 as well. Is that the same? You can't tell us - perhaps if I just ask you this, they seem to group. They're groups of, sort of, half your crew. Is there any explanation along the lines of they work in teams of three or anything like that that - - -?---So as per some of the evidence tendered, when we have the ability to, we do actually group the drills or campaign the drills on a particular bench altogether, because it makes it easier for us to actually get in front of our blast crew. So it could very well be that those three operators were operating drills that were all in the one location.
PN1811
In a campaign?---However, just very quickly, the one with Drill A there at 6.39, that's actually within the 12 hours and 40 minutes, so - - -
PN1812
Yes, just before the end. If we go over to 23 August, and on the left-hand side, 6.51.47 and 6.52.02. Again, they seem to occur
in groups, and so it looks like the group is going out together, or the couple or the three are going out together?
---Yes. But some of the guys also carpool I believe. So there may be a case that they're actually waiting for the other drillers
to actually be there so they can head out the gate together. I know some of the crews do travel.
PN1813
That's all, nothing further, thank you, Commissioner.
PN1814
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Dalton?
PN1815
MR DALTON: No re-examination.
**** JUSTIN ROBERT SAMPSON XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1816
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Sampson, for giving your evidence. Thank you very much?---Thank you.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [2.19PM]
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Dalton?
PN1818
MR DALTON: The next witness is Tyson Hammer. Perhaps while he's called, could I just make a minor correction to his statement. It's one that is an exhibit related - - -
PN1819
THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. Mr Dalton, I prefer that my associate gets the witnesses. I'd asked that of the CFMEU too, just for clarity of that. So in future, I've no difficulty with Ms Gillies. But it's just court protocol that will - - -
PN1820
MR DALTON: I'm sorry, Commissioner.
PN1821
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. She may be seeing Mr Sampson out but it's just - - -
PN1822
MR DALTON: Yes, I understand that. Exhibit TJH2 to Mr Hammer's statement only has 15 pages, not 18 pages.
PN1823
THE COMMISSIONER: Is that the terms as well?
PN1824
MR DALTON: I think so, yes. What's happened is it's printed out, it's reformatted and it's resulted in less pages.
PN1825
THE COMMISSIONER: How many pages, 15?
PN1826
MR DALTON: 15.
PN1827
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Dalton.
<TYSON JAY HAMMER, SWORN [2.20PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DALTON [2.21PM]
MR DALTON: Mr Hammer, could you please state for the purposes of the transcript recording your full name and your work address?---Tyson Jay Hammer, work address Goonyella Riverside Mine, Moranbah.
PN1829
And you're employed by BHP Coal as the acting dragline superintendent at the Goonyella Riverside Mine?---Yes.
PN1830
You've prepared a statement for the purposes of this proceeding?---Yes.
PN1831
Have you got a copy of that in front of you?---Yes, I do.
PN1832
Are the contents of it true and correct to the best of your knowledge?---Yes, the only thing being is I've got there 18 pages. It's actually 15 pages.
PN1833
Yes, that's been noted. I tender that.
PN1834
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much. We'll mark the statement of Mr Tyson Hammer as exhibit 19 in the proceedings.
EXHIBIT #19 STATEMENT OF TYSON JAY HAMMER
MR DALTON: No questions.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SLEVIN [2.22PM]
MR SLEVIN: Mr Hammer, you give the shift lengths for the dragline operators as 12 and a half. Is it the case that it's 12 and 40 minutes for one of the draglines?---No, it's 12 and a half for all of them.
PN1837
What happens with the dragline in the south?---The south?
**** TYSON JAY HAMMER XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1838
Yes?---At the normal shift change we can get that operator back to the start point within the 12 and a half hours.
PN1839
You have an arrangement, it seems, with the dragline operators as to how they do their shift changeover. You seem to be referring to it being a hot-seat changeover because the dragline continues to swing?---Yes, that's right.
PN1840
So your view is, is it, that as the machine is continuing to operate through the changeover it can be described as a hot-seat changeover?---Yes. The oncoming operator can board the machine whilst operational. The crib room is behind the operator's cabin. He can put his lunch away and do a changeover in the cab. They can just swap out.
PN1841
And that can all be done without the need to stop the machine and have the inspection?---Yes, brake stop, brake set, hop out. The second oncoming operator is the person who does the inspections of the bucket and rigging.
PN1842
You described well for us the changeover with the two operators, one driving a light vehicle out and then the oncoming coming in -
or the second coming in with the light vehicle. But you give us some TAMS data about how people are coming on and off at paragraph,
if you have a look at paragraph 18. Given your description in your statement as to how the changeover occurs, one would expect these
figures to be fifty-fifty; that "approximately 58 per cent of all offgoing dragline operators performed little or no work beyond
the 12-hour mark". So reading your statement I would understand that that's the first outgoing operator who's doing that.
But the figure is 58 per cent. How did it become 58 per cent?
---Normally they take it in turns. You have some people that live in the camp that don't really care if they're second in all the
time, but a majority of the time they take it in turns. So one will come in first one day, and then the next day it's his turn to
come in early the next day. Also we've got - 12 is the minimum. If we've got extra people we man dozers - extra dozers or graders,
so we'll have more than the required people to run draglines.
**** TYSON JAY HAMMER XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1843
So the people in your - because we don't get an identification of who the people are in your TAMS figures, but they're not just dragline operators there, so do they include - - -?---No, they're all dragline operators but we've also got other skills that we can use them for if we need to - like graders, dozers, third person on dragline. Two is minimum but sometimes, if we've got extra men, we will run three on a dragline.
PN1844
And you've got trainees as well?---And trainees as well.
PN1845
So just going back to these statistics, so we get 58 per cent of operators doing little or no work beyond the 12-hour mark. I just want to put a proposition to you that they must be the first operators coming in?---Yes.
PN1846
And now and then they will have someone else with them?---Possibly, yes, if the grader is in their area, yes.
PN1847
So is it the case that if you've got that additional operator on, they'll generally come back with the first operator?---Yes.
PN1848
Okay?---Yes, with trainees we prefer them to stay out, come in with the second guy because they're there to train, so we prefer that they train longer at a machine rather than coming in to the starting point.
PN1849
So the next stat you give us is, "On average, approximately 36 per cent of all offgoing dragline operators left the mine between 6.15 and 6.45." So they're the second offcoming operators?---Yes. That would be the minimum 12 that were left - no, the minimum six operators that were the second incoming.
PN1850
If we add those two together we get 94, so there's another 6 per cent. Do you know how we account for the other 6 per cent?---No, I'm not sure.
**** TYSON JAY HAMMER XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1851
It seems that the likely conclusion to draw is that they are people who are leaving the mine after the 6.45 mark. Would you agree with that proposition?---The first shift change back when we have our safe start is the shift that we normally have our trouble with the overrun, because that's the day the superintendent addresses the first oncoming shift - - -
PN1852
I'll just stop you. I think you've gone a step further. I think you might have - assumed that the answer to my question is "Yes", so if we deal with first my proposition and then I'll ask you why that might be the case?---Yes.
PN1853
So do you agree with my first proposition that the most likely explanation for that 6 per cent is that they're operators who leave the mine after 6.45?---Possibly, yes.
PN1854
Then you were giving an explanation and I interrupted you. So your explanation is?---So the first shift back for the new crew, the superintendent addresses the workforce as only that one time for that working week for that crew and normally, if that goes longer than expected, it's possible that some of those six second incoming will be late.
PN1855
THE COMMISSIONER: Can you identify that in the data, so in that for August?---No, I'm not sure.
PN1856
What that shift would have been?---No, it's always - it would be the last night shift.
PN1857
Right?---It's always their last night shift, the first crew's first day shift.
PN1858
MR SLEVIN: You give some evidence about an arrangement being in place about the cleaning of the light vehicles. What's the nature of that? You actually describe it, I think, as an agreement. What's the nature of that agreement? Is there something in writing or is it just a custom and practice?---Custom and practice. So the first offgoing operator - because they can leave their machine early, so we allocate them - they can come in from half past 5, 5.40 - come in early and that gives them enough time to clean that bit of equipment, fuel it up and set that next shift up so that's one less task - that's usually a night shift job. That's one less task that they have to do, so they're set up for a full shift where they don't have to worry about fuelling and cleaning the car.
**** TYSON JAY HAMMER XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1859
Nothing further, thank you, Mr Hammer.
PN1860
MR DALTON: No re-examination.
PN1861
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Hammer, thank you for giving your evidence?
---Thank you.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [2.30PM]
THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks, Mr Dalton.
PN1863
MR DALTON: Commissioner, it might be convenient at this point to tender the statement of Daniel Iliffe. He's a witness who my learned friend has informed us that he doesn't intend to cross-examine.
PN1864
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. You accept that just for the record, Mr Slevin?
PN1865
MR SLEVIN: Yes, that's correct.
PN1866
THE COMMISSIONER: We'll mark the statement of Daniel Iliffe as exhibit 20 in the proceedings.
EXHIBIT #20 STATEMENT OF DANIEL ILIFFE
MR DALTON: I call the next witness, Amos Lawson.
PN1868
THE ASSOCIATE: Please state your full name and address.
PN1869
MR ILIFFE: Amos Brian Lawson, (address supplied).
<AMOS BRIAN LAWSON, AFFIRMED [2.32PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DALTON [2.32PM]
MR DALTON: Mr Lawson, could you please state for the purposes of the transcript recording your full name and your work address?---Amos Brian Lawson, Saraji Coal Mine, Dysart.
PN1871
And you're employed by BHP Coal as the pre-strip superintendent, pre-strip 2, at the Saraji Mine?---That's correct.
PN1872
You've worked at the Saraji Mine for several years?---That's correct.
PN1873
And you've held the position you currently hold for about two years?---That's correct.
PN1874
You prepared a statement for the purposes of the proceeding?---Yes, that's correct.
PN1875
Have you got a copy of that in front of you there? Is it true and correct to the best of your knowledge?---Yes, that's correct.
PN1876
I tender that.
PN1877
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. We'll mark the statement of Mr Amos Lawson as exhibit 21 in the proceedings.
EXHIBIT #21 STATEMENT OF AMOS BRIAN LAWSON
MR DALTON: No more questions.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SLEVIN [2.33PM]
MR SLEVIN: Mr Lawson, can you open up annexure 2 to your statement, which is the general overview of the Saraji Mine. I want to ask you to go through an exercise that will be repetitive, so I'll just tell you about it in full to start with. I want you to take us to each of the pits, starting from the top and coming down, and identify for us which ones are currently operating and whether they're operating as pre-strip pits - whether the work being done in them is pre-strip work or coalmining work. Start at the - is it the Jacaranda pit?---17?
**** AMOS BRIAN LAWSON XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1880
Yes, ramp 17?---It's currently used as a water storage pit, so all the water from the other pits on site is pumped there.
PN1881
Yes. The Acacia pit, which is 9 - seems to have ramps 1 and 9 going to it?---No, zero and - - -
PN1882
Zero and 9, sorry?---So that was just recently used as - HSE pre-strip were down there for a while. They ceased operations down there last year. Ramp 1 hasn't been used for a great number of years. It's a water storage facility as well. 1A hasn't been used for about three years, might be closer to four. Bauhinia pit is used by pre-strip, draglines and coalmining.
PN1883
So at the moment it's pre-strip, draglines and coalmining?---That's correct.
PN1884
How does that work in terms of the interaction of equipment? Does that mean that there may be pre-strip trucks as well as coalmining trucks on the same haul roads, or is there a separation between the two?---No, that's correct. Yes.
PN1885
Which is correct?---They use (indistinct) bridge there, the coalmining trucks and the pre-strip trucks.
PN1886
THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, what was that?---The coalmining and the pre-strip trucks can run together on a central bridge that goes to (indistinct) the pre-strip to the western side of the coalmine, and there's a low-wall ramp that takes the coalmine trucks down into the coal.
PN1887
MR SLEVIN: We're at ramp 2, so ramp 4, is it, next?---Ramp 4 is the same; same as ramp 2. It's used by the three different divisions of the mine, the draglines, the coalmining and the pre-strip.
**** AMOS BRIAN LAWSON XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1888
If we go down there, what's happening with the Coolibah pit?---Coolibah pit is currently a water storage facility, so the water from the southern pits has come to storage.
PN1889
We're down to the Dockyard pit?---Dogwood pit.
PN1890
Sorry, Dogwood?---Yes, Dogwood pit. That's ramp 8. So that's used by pre-strip, draglines and coalmining.
PN1891
Next we've got ramp 10, is it?---Yeah, that's - it's called Ebony pit, and that's like a - sort of like a super pit. There's ramp 9, 10, 11 and 12 in there, so that's used by everybody - pre-strip, coalmining and draglines.
PN1892
Yes?---There's four ramps that come out of that one pit and there's two bridges in pit. There's two (indistinct) bridges as well.
PN1893
So we've got 10, 11 and the branch off 12?---Actually, it starts on 9 there, between 8 and 10.
PN1894
I see?---There's a corridor road there. That's ramp 9.
PN1895
And the next one?---That's Fiddlewood. That's ramp 13. Same thing - draglines, coalmining and pre-strip - and 14 is the same.
PN1896
So the last one, 15?---Yes, Hakea. Same thing - pre-strip coalmining and draglines.
PN1897
So essentially operating all - everything south of the industrial area is operating at the moment?---Correct.
**** AMOS BRIAN LAWSON XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1898
All three departments?---Correct.
PN1899
If we take the extremities, let's go from the bottom. Ramp 15 is in the industrial area. How long does that take?---To be honest, I haven't timed that one. It's about - I'd say it's about 15 K down there, 14 K.
PN1900
THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, where was that one to?---Ramp 15. That's the most southern pit we've got. Pardon me, our contract pre-strip department works down there. Our BMA pre-strip doesn't go down there.
PN1901
MR SLEVIN: Where does the BMA pre-strip go to?---They go from ramp 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, the Dogwood pit, ramp 4 and 2.
PN1902
THE COMMISSIONER: So the longest circuit takes how long, do you reckon?
---How long would it take?
PN1903
Yes?---If you're in a light vehicle and you're doing 80 K an hour on the haul road, 15 K, 15 minutes, 16 minutes, 17 minutes.
PN1904
MR SLEVIN: And if you're in a bus - transport bus coming up from a pre-strip operation in the pit down there - how long would that take?---Yes, same time if the bus can do 80 K an hour.
PN1905
It's unlikely that the bus would be doing 80 K, isn't it?---70 - 65, 70, 60.
PN1906
THE COMMISSIONER: Can you do 80 K on those line roads?---Yes. Yes, they're quite well maintained. It's only when they're wet that the speed restrictions drop down.
PN1907
**** AMOS BRIAN LAWSON XXN MR SLEVIN
Is that the mine safety - - -?---That's correct, yes.
PN1908
MR SLEVIN: When you're talking about the main haul road, you're talking about the road to the left of the pits?---Yes, that's correct.
PN1909
Where all the ramps branch from. Is that right?---That's correct, yes. The western side of the mine.
PN1910
THE COMMISSIONER: My apologies for the intervention, Mr Slevin, but I just want to understand.
PN1911
In your statement, paragraph 14, I just want to clarify what you're talking about. You're talking about rear dump truck operators there, but you talk about ramp 12 shovel 38 circuit?---Yes.
PN1912
That that will take approximately 25 minutes to complete. Is that the longest circuit that you're talking about there?---Yes. Probably BMA pre-strip. That's correct.
PN1913
So in terms of that at the end of - so can I just - you go on, Mr Slevin. I might let you - I've got a few questions in relation to this, so you undertake your cross-examination, and I'll see - - -
PN1914
MR SLEVIN: I was going to move on from this topic - - -
PN1915
THE COMMISSIONER: It might be easier - - -
PN1916
MR SLEVIN: - - - Commissioner, and simply rely on what's in the statement, for my purposes. If you wanted to deal with this topic - - -
PN1917
**** AMOS BRIAN LAWSON XXN MR SLEVIN
THE COMMISSIONER: I just wanted to - I've made some notes, and I just wanted to put this to you. I have to concede that I did this a couple of days ago, but as I understand, your evidence was the longest circuit at Saraji was approximately 25 minutes to complete?---That's shovel 38 strip, yes.
PN1918
So in that instance the employees working in this circuit took their last load at 5.50 am or p.m?---Yes.
PN1919
And went to the further dump point; that is, the longest circuit possible. They would arrive at the dump point by, what do you say?---At 24 minutes, or whatever I've got there.
PN1920
I've put it down at 6.02 am. I've only taken this from your evidence?---Yes.
PN1921
Is that right?---So - - -
PN1922
And dump their load by 6.03?---6.02, yes.
PN1923
Then they drive directly to the crib, arriving at approximately 6.05?---Mm'hm.
PN1924
The bus trip would then be added onto this and have them at the go line by 6.15?
---That 24 minutes is a cycle. So from when the shovel loads the truck, when he goes to the dump, and he goes back to the shovel
to get another load. The last load doesn't go back to the shovel. He goes straight to the crib hit.
PN1925
Okay, because that's about two minutes, is it? Is that the estimate? About two minutes from the dump point to the crib hut?---Yes, usually, when they're dumping up the top near 38, they dump near the crib hut.
PN1926
So that's right that estimate of two minutes? Okay. That's why I just wanted to check that circuit.
**** AMOS BRIAN LAWSON XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1927
MR SLEVIN: In terms of the dump points for the coal trucks, where are they on the map that we've got?---Straight across from the Dogwood pit is a ROM - that's the run of the mine - and that's where the coal trucks dump their loads.
PN1928
And it's only that one dump point, is there, for the coal trucks?---They've got ramp 14 (indistinct) stockpile, and they have ROM 7, I think - ROM 7. They stockpile there if they haven't got enough trucks. They can run short out of the pits, dump their loads up on top, so they can continue production of the coal and get it out the mine quickly.
PN1929
So if we just go back. So we've got a stockpile where?---So they go to Grevillea pit, ramp 14.
PN1930
Yes?---Just where that - see that bit of light blue section there? Just around there. They've got a stockpile area.
PN1931
So it's there or up next to Dogwood pit is where they'll be dumping?---Yes, across the road, up to the western side, near the industrial area. They're using stockpiles when it's raining, and they can't get in the pits, they just run on the main roads, and go in there and pick that coal up.
PN1932
You give some data from the TAMS system - so when the people are leaving the mine. That's in paragraph 25. Now, I'll just ask you these questions. The first figure in subparagraph (a): "Approximately 4 per cent of all offgoing pre-strip operators perform little or no work beyond the 12-hour mark." So is that saying that 4 per cent of the offgoing pre-strip operators left the mine before the 12-hour mark?---That's correct.
PN1933
Then the next line I think speaks for itself. That 78 per cent of all offgoing pre-strip operators left the mine between 5.45 am and 6.15 am. So that's between the 12-hour and the 12.30 mark. That's right?---Correct.
**** AMOS BRIAN LAWSON XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1934
And then you add those two figures and you only get 82 per cent. Does that mean that 18 per cent are leaving after the 12 and a half-hour mark?---On time. On time they'd be leaving. There's only one thing I haven't added and that would be if some of my lead supervisors who were the EA employees - to finish off the time sheets and stuff like that. They will go 12 and a half.
PN1935
Just go back again. So you're saying that the 18 per cent are leaving right on the 6.15 mark, are you?---Yes.
PN1936
You give us the data, which is attached at ABL3, Mr Lawson. Can you open that up? So 6.15 is the end of the shift. If you go to 1 June, and then you go down to 6.15 - so in the right-hand side - it appears that there are a number of operators leaving the mine after the 6.15 mark. Indeed it looks like there are 38 SRM pre-strip operators leaving after 6.15. So they're not leaving right on time, are they? They're leaving 15 minutes late. The first one is leaving 15 minutes late - 6:26:28. The next one is leaving at 6.38. The next one is leaving at 6.42, 6.43, 6.43, 6.43 - we're at half an hour late now?---Are you on the front page?
PN1937
Yes, I am?---Just put it to me again.
PN1938
The first set of times on that column?---Yes, I'm looking at it.
PN1939
It just looks to me, on the information in your statement - and I might be wrong, so I'm giving you a chance to tell me if I am - there's quite a lot of operators - indeed 38 of them - leaving - - -?---I haven't got 38. I've got four.
PN1940
On 1 June - - -?---6 June. 2 June, sorry.
PN1941
On 1 June?---1 June.
**** AMOS BRIAN LAWSON XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1942
On the left-hand side, on the first - see, the first entry is 6:01:32. It may be that we're looking at different documents?---No, no. You go on the right. That's the right side over there.
PN1943
That's right? And that's before the end of shift. The end of shift is 6.15, isn't it?
---End of shift is 6.15.
PN1944
And these are pre-strip operators, it tells me in that first column. So we've got someone leaving 15 minutes early. We've got someone leaving a minute after the 6.15 mark. Then we've got a big group leaving from 6.26, on this day, all the way down to 7.08 - almost an hour late?---Yes.
PN1945
Those people, when you did your statistics, would have fallen into that 18 per cent, wouldn't it, not covered by your other two descriptions in your statement. You're not leaving on time, you're leaving late. That's the case, isn't it?---Looks like the case there.
PN1946
And then we have a look at 5 June. See that, 6.15 am; someone leaving at 6.15 am on the dot, and then there's a group that looks like a group of about 18, going over to the next page, with the last leaving at 6.41. That's closer to the knock-off time but they're still leaving after the 6.15 mark, aren't they?---Mm'hm.
PN1947
And you'd expect they'd fall into that 18 per cent that we were talking about earlier, wouldn't you? Do you agree with that?---Yes. Yes, I can't (indistinct) about that.
PN1948
Then 13 June, again if you go to 6.15.08, so someone is leaving just after shift and then they're leaving at 6.16, and it looks like there's about 11 people leaving late that day, down to 6.25. They'd fall into that 18 per cent, wouldn't they?---Which day are you looking at?
**** AMOS BRIAN LAWSON XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1949
I'm looking at 13 June. Do you agree with that proposition that they'd fall into that 18 per cent?---Mm'hm.
PN1950
That's right, isn't it?---Yes.
PN1951
Now, if you go to 25 June and the same exercise, you'll find someone leaving at 6.15.45 just after the end of the 12 and a half-hour shift?---That's on the 25th, did you say?
PN1952
Yes, on the 25th. And you see there's someone leaving at 10 to 9?---Yes, they could - they might have been sick.
PN1953
So that could be someone who started and went home sick?---Yes.
PN1954
What about if we go up to 7.58 then. You might have had a couple sick, but then 6.57, that looks like they've probably come off shift, doesn't it?---Yes.
PN1955
So they fall into that 18 per cent that we spoke about. That's right, isn't it, Mr Lawson?---I'm not quite sure. I need to check into those a bit more, I think, because I'm just hoping these are all EA employees and they're not my - they've got supervisors. Because if they're going right over the time we'd be getting calls from the security centre, so I'd be fielding calls left, right and centre to get these people off site. I cannot recall getting that many phone calls to get my operators off site.
PN1956
It's 25 June. Even if we say they look like they might be - well, I'll go back a step. The supervisors are included in these stats. These are not just the production engineering people. Is that the case?---That should be just all EA people.
PN1957
**** AMOS BRIAN LAWSON XXN MR SLEVIN
It should be. So it looks like on these stats that you have EA people - at least at 6.54 and 6.57 there's a couple of EA people still on shift or still at work from a shift starting the night before. That's what that tells us, isn't it?---Shift ending.
PN1958
If we just go to 12 July, you'll see you've got the same thing happening with 11 people. Go to 12 July and look for 6.15 again. Do you see we've got someone walking out at 6.14.57, and then a minute later, 6.15.43, and then 6.15 and then it goes down and across the column. Then we go all the way to 6.46?---Yes, it does. It's a full crew of 18 people.
PN1959
They'd fall in that 18 per cent, wouldn't they, in the body of your statement who are not accounted for in those other two percentages you give us? That's right, isn't it?---Looks like it's right, yes.
PN1960
Then if we go to 17 July that's the same.
PN1961
THE COMMISSIONER: Did you take that period June to August?---Beg your pardon?
PN1962
The period of this TAMS data, did you pull that out - June to August?---My HR team pulled that out for me.
PN1963
So you worked for three months?---Yes.
PN1964
Is that what you asked for?---Whatever is in there I asked for.
PN1965
Why did you ask for three months?---Just to get a bit of a picture of what was going on.
PN1966
Sorry, Mr Slevin.
**** AMOS BRIAN LAWSON XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1967
MR SLEVIN: No, that's all right.
PN1968
So if we go to 17 July again we're looking for 6.15. You see we've got 6.15.50 (indistinct) leaving then. Then we've got people continuing to leave down to either 6.20 or 6.56. It appears to be 6.56. Is that correct?---Yes, that would be a step-up supervisor.
PN1969
Step-up supervisor, so it's an EA employee - - -?---Yes.
PN1970
- - - who's stepped up in a supervisor's role, you think, on that shift to be leaving that late?---Yes, it's the only way it could be. There wouldn't be an operator there.
PN1971
All right, so the last operator has left, in any event, there at 6.20?---Yes, 6.21, whatever it is there - 6.45.
PN1972
All right, then 7 August. Do you see that? See we've got 6.18 and then down to - there seems to be someone leaving at 8.06. Do you think the 8.06 employee is a step-up supervisor as well?---What's that, 15 hours at work? I would have been getting phone calls - even the one above it, 7.34, I would have been getting phone calls for both of them.
PN1973
But not for the 6.30 one?---No.
PN1974
Then if we go to 10 August. Again you're looking for 6.15. You can see there are people leaving at 6.13 and then there's a group at 6.21 down to 6.23. That's p.m. I'm taking you to p.m., and also if we go to a.m., which is on the left-hand side on 10 August, we've got a large group there?---Yes, it's a crew.
PN1975
So when you say it's a crew, the entire A crew, is it?---Well - - -
**** AMOS BRIAN LAWSON XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1976
Can you tell from this data - I'm having trouble with this, Mr Lawson. These descriptions of SRM pre-strip, A3, A2 - can you tell from that data if an entire crew is late, can you?---See, if you look at the - - -
PN1977
The A2s?---Yes. It goes 6.17.
PN1978
Yes?---That's the A2. Go down to 6.45. That's shovel 37. That's my shovel.
PN1979
Right?---Then you've got A1 below that. That's shovel 38. That's the other superintendent's shovel.
PN1980
All right. And shovel 37, it's one of the shovels you gave an example of in your statement, isn't it?---Yes, that's my shovel, shovel 37.
PN1981
So on that day you've got last out at 6.45, which is, what, the 13-hour mark?
PN1982
THE COMMISSIONER: What date is that one?
PN1983
MR SLEVIN: That's 10 August?---The 10th.
PN1984
On the left-hand side, the morning, and then there's another group at the end of the day shift, Commissioner, on the right-hand side, a smaller group.
PN1985
That group again falls within that 18 per cent that we were talking about. Do you agree with that, Mr Lawson?---Yeah, have to.
PN1986
Then last of all if we go to 15 August, the same exercise?---15th you said?
PN1987
15 August, yes, and if we go to 6.13 within shift, and then we jump to the top of the next page and we've got 6.16 and then a group down to 6.37. They all fall within that 18 per cent, don't they?---Are you on the left-hand side?
**** AMOS BRIAN LAWSON XXN MR SLEVIN
PN1988
I am, at the top, 6.16 pm to 6.37 pm?---What date are you on, sorry? The 13th are you on?
PN1989
I'm on the 15th?---I was on the wrong page, sorry.
PN1990
I don't have page numbers on mine. Do you have page numbers?---No.
PN1991
It's the same exercise. Go to the date 15 August?---Yes, at 6.16. 6.16, yes. Is it p.m. you're talking?
PN1992
Yes, 6.16 pm, down to 6.37 pm, that group there?---14, D1.
PN1993
I think I counted them at - - -?---There's a mixture.
PN1994
It's a mixture? What do you mean by "It's a mixture"?---Shovel 37 and shovel 38.
PN1995
All right. You're looking at where they've come from to be late in that exercise, are you, Mr Lawson? I just want to show you there's a group of them that are late?---Yes, there's a group.
PN1996
And indeed that group falls into the 18 per cent, and so that answer you gave me earlier, that 18 per cent of people who left right on time, wasn't an accurate answer, was it? That wasn't correct?---Not by the information I supplied you it's not, no.
PN1997
No, the information we've just had a look at shows that you've got 18 per cent of your operators leaving after the 12 and a half hour mark, haven't you?---Looks like it.
PN1998
**** AMOS BRIAN LAWSON XXN MR SLEVIN
Nothing further, Commissioner.
PN1999
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Dalton?
PN2000
MR DALTON: No re-examination, Commissioner.
PN2001
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Lawson, thank you for giving your evidence?---No worries.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [3.05PM]
MR DALTON: I call Cleave Simpson.
PN2003
THE ASSOCIATE: Please state your full name and address.
PN2004
MR SIMPSON: Cleave Allan Simpson. Address is Saraji Mine, Private Mail Bag, Dysart, Queensland, 4745.
<CLEAVE ALLAN SIMPSON, SWORN [3.07PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DALTON [3.07PM]
MR DALTON: Thanks, Mr Simpson. Your full name is Cleave Allan Simpson?---That's correct.
PN2006
And you work at the Saraji Mine?---Yes, sir.
PN2007
You're employed by BHP Coal and you presently hold the position of manager production mining operations at that mine?---That's correct.
PN2008
You've held that position for approximately 14, 15 months?---16 now.
PN2009
16?---I'm sorry, 15. At the end of September it was 15 months.
PN2010
You've prepared a statement for the purposes of the proceeding?---I have.
PN2011
You have a copy of the statement in front of you?---I do.
PN2012
Are the contents of that statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge?
---Yes, sir, they are.
PN2013
I tender that.
PN2014
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. I mark the statement of Mr Cleave Simpson as exhibit 22 in the proceedings, thank you.
EXHIBIT #22 STATEMENT OF CLEAVE SIMPSON
MR DALTON: No questions.
PN2016
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
**** CLEAVE ALLAN SIMPSON XN MR DALTON
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SLEVIN [3.08PM]
MR SLEVIN: Mr Slevin, you give some times for circuits in your statement. Are those times derived by simply taking the distances of the circuit, taking into account the speed the trucks can travel at, and just giving the result of that calculation to determine how long it will take to run the circuit?---No, sir. They were just a generalisation on my part. There was no science put behind those - running through those circuits.
PN2018
All right. Given that answer, I gather you wouldn't argue with me that there are a number of factors that will affect the operators completing the circuits on the ground that might slow them down, as it were?---Correct.
PN2019
Indeed, the circuit times that you give are the ideal times. They're sort of the best time that you can do that circuit in?---I believe they were just a generalisation. I wouldn't even characterise them as the best time.
PN2020
I'll just go through a list of the types of things that would slow them down, as it were, from the times that you've given. If there are queues at a loader, that will slow it down, won't it?---Yes, sir.
PN2021
And the queues at a loader may be caused because there's dozer activity at the loader, with sweeping being done?---Yes, sir.
PN2022
There may be queues at the dump point as well?---Correct, yes, sir.
PN2023
And that may be as a result of dozer activity at the dump point?---Generally, from my processes, those trucks are hauling coal and generally they're dumping into a hopper and generally there's not a dozer at the dump site for that part of the operation.
**** CLEAVE ALLAN SIMPSON XXN MR SLEVIN
PN2024
They don't always dump at the hopper, though, do they? There's also a stockpile that they'll dump at - - -?---Correct.
PN2025
- - - from time to time as well?---Correct.
PN2026
There would be dozers at the stockpile?---Off and on, yes, sir.
PN2027
And there may also be - whilst on the circuit, there may be graders on the roads working on the roads - - -?---Yes.
PN2028
- - - from time to time. There may be water trucks on the haul roads as well if there's a dust event or something like that?---Yes, sir.
PN2029
And that will slow them down. Indeed, if there's a dust event itself, the trucks would slow down because of poor visibility, wouldn't they?---Yes, sir, that's correct.
PN2030
If there's other traffic on the haul roads, that may slow them down as well?---Yes, sir.
PN2031
I note at your mine that it appears that the haul roads are used not - that oftentimes the coal trucks will be sharing haul roads with the pre-strip trucks. That's the case, is it?---I think in general they don't share the haul road. They may intersect and cross one another at times. In general the coalmining trucks are on the main haul road from the ramp to the truck hopper.
PN2032
All right, thank you for that. But they still interact at their intersections - - -?
---Yes.
PN2033
**** CLEAVE ALLAN SIMPSON XXN MR SLEVIN
- - - so there may be a need to - - -?---At times.
PN2034
- - - slow down. When that does occur, it's the case that both trucks will be slowing and ideally one will be stopping - - -?---Yes, sir.
PN2035
- - - to let the other through?---Correct.
PN2036
In terms of other traffic that might be on the roads, what happens at shift changeover with the buses that are transporting people back to the industrial area? Do they travel on the haul road?---Correct. Yes, sir.
PN2037
And light vehicles as well for those operators who are coming up from the pits?
---Correct. Yes, sir.
PN2038
So at changeover there might be - changeover is the busiest time in terms of the traffic on the roads?---It can be, certainly.
PN2039
I've given you all of those examples that might slow a truck down. Would you agree with me that it's probably unusual to get a clear run and do a circuit at the speeds that you've indicated in your statement?---I'm not sure I indicated any speeds in the statement, sir.
PN2040
Not speeds. Rather, times in your statement?---Can you tell me the question again, sir.
PN2041
Would you agree with me that, with those factors that we've just spoken about - and I'll be more specific - and especially at changeover time, it's unusual to get a clear run at a circuit around that time, because these other factors are going to interfere and slow you down so that you don't do the circuit in the sort of estimated times that you put in your statement?---The potential impact to circuits is definitely increased at shift change.
**** CLEAVE ALLAN SIMPSON XXN MR SLEVIN
PN2042
Mr Simpson, you give us this TAMS data as well. You give us some TAMS data for a number of groups of employees?---Yes, sir.
PN2043
For the mining employees it's at paragraph 16. I don't expect you to memorise this, Mr Simpson, so have a look at paragraph 16?---Yes, sir.
PN2044
Can you see the percentages that you give? "Approximately 3 per cent of all offgoing coalmining operators perform little or
no work beyond the 12-hour mark." You mean by that that they've left the mine before the 12-hour mark?
---Correct, yes.
PN2045
And the second stat is that 88 per cent have left the mine between the 12-hour mark and the 12 and a half hour mark?---Yes, sir.
PN2046
That of course leaves 9 per cent who are leaving after the 12 and a half hour mark. Is that the case?---Yes, sir.
PN2047
I just want to take you to two examples in the data that you've provided us with. The coalmining, if that's the first collection - so it's annexure CAS1?---Yes, sir.
PN2048
Have you got that open? Thank you. You've got colour coding there. I'm not sure what the colour coding indicates. Can you explain that to us. It's just out and in, is it? Green is in and the red is out?---Red is out, correct.
PN2049
There's nothing other than that - - -?---No, sir.
PN2050
So the term "granted entry" doesn't have some sort of special meaning?---No, sir.
PN2051
It's everyone?---That's correct.
**** CLEAVE ALLAN SIMPSON XXN MR SLEVIN
PN2052
Unless of course your swipecard doesn't and you've got to stand at the gate to find out why?---Correct.
PN2053
If we go to 11 August, yours is a little different to other data we've seen in the case. These Xs on the left-hand side, do you know what they are? Is that where the name would otherwise be?---Correct, or an ID number.
PN2054
I see. I was taking you to 11 August. It seems that a crew there had come in late. You might help me. I've lost my roster, Mr Simpson, which is a bad thing. I might be late for work. What time is the end of shift for 13 August?---Should be 6.15.
PN2055
11 August, rather. 6.15? So we're looking for 6.15. So if we go down to 6:14:55, we've got the operator leaving the mine at 6:14:55 and then after that we've got a group leaving at 6.15 down to 6.20 and then down to 7.04. There's a couple of things. If we go simply to the a.m.'s, so the morning people, we've got a group from 6.15 to 6.20, so they're leaving in that five-minute period after the 12 and a half hour mark. That's right, isn't it?---Correct.
PN2056
Then we've got someone leaving at 7.04. Any idea what's happening there?---I suspect, without knowing individuals - but it's probably a supervisor; potentially a step-up supervisor.
PN2057
The group of employees in your data are EA employees, but they also include EA employees who are stepping up in a supervisory role?---Yes, sir.
PN2058
And they have the different roster arrangements because of that step?---The roster is generally the same, but they will potentially be a little longer making their exit as they pass on more information to the oncoming shift and finishing up their paperwork.
**** CLEAVE ALLAN SIMPSON XXN MR SLEVIN
PN2059
There's only one other. That's 31 August in relation to C crew. The same exercise. We've got 6.17 - we've got a.m.'s and p.m.'s here, which makes the task a little more complicated, but can you see what's happening there in relation to - we're assisted by your colour coding. So that "granted entry" in the middle there, 6:17:02, can you assist us with what's happening there? That's someone coming into the gate at 6.17 - EA employee, is it?---That's correct.
PN2060
So are they late for work?---Potentially.
PN2061
And then we've got someone exiting at 6.17 pm. We've got the green people - I'm taking you to the 30th. I think I said 31 August, and just for the record I should say I've backtracked just to ask you to clarify these things that happened on 30 August, because they look unusual. We'll go to 31 August in a moment. Then we've got these people granted entry there at 6.18. Is that another group who were running late for shift?---Potentially. So within the coalmining crew there are also employees that are going through (indistinct) training, just maybe working just a slightly different roster and report time. Look, I don't know what the training regime is for everybody.
PN2062
So when you've got this data, you haven't removed people in special circumstances who are doing training or other sorts of work that isn't the usual part of the roster. You've just got everyone who - - -?---That's correct. Unless there was a specific anomaly that stuck out, an employee reporting two hours into the shift, or reporting and then leaving and coming back, we pull those kind of individual anomalies that stuck very clearly out, but individual for training purposes or for step-up purposes, I did not pull those out.
PN2063
Now, the last group in your annexure, the last group is this group who have exited between 6.15 and 6.24. There are 20 crew members there. They're EA employees who are leaving after the 12-and-a-half-hour mark. That's right, isn't it?---Yes, sir.
**** CLEAVE ALLAN SIMPSON XXN MR SLEVIN
PN2064
So they're in that group of 9 per cent we spoke about earlier?---Correct. Yes, sir.
PN2065
No further questions. Thank you.
PN2066
THE COMMISSIONER: I just wanted to correlate this: at paragraph 15, you say, "To the best of my recollection, there have not been any occurrences during my time as manager where coalmining operators have left the mine after 6.15 at the end of their shift"?---Some clarity around that would be that there was nobody that came to my attention to express concern about getting away from a mine after 6.15. The data was done after I created that.
PN2067
So there have been occurrences, is that what you're saying? That's what Mr Slevin has taken you to?---Yes.
PN2068
There have been occurrences where they've left, but no-one has complained about that. Is that what your evidence is?---Correct.
PN2069
No further questions. Mr Dalton.
PN2070
MR DALTON: Just to clarify, Commissioner, is that - - -
PN2071
THE COMMISSIONER: That was at paragraph 15.
PN2072
MR DALTON: Yes. Is that an observation in relation to drill works?
PN2073
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I just wanted to clarify, it's coalmining operators. Have I got that correct? Because Mr Slevin took you to a number of - and is that - they were coalmining operators, weren't they?---The ones we were just discussing. So your evidence is - I just don't want to misinterpret what you're saying there, because Mr Slevin has taken you, as I understand - and correct me, because you're the expert on all of the data in these things, but Mr Slevin has taken you to a number - as I understand what you're saying, Mr Slevin, there's a number that have left after that time.
**** CLEAVE ALLAN SIMPSON XXN MR SLEVIN
PN2074
MR SLEVIN: Yes.
PN2075
THE COMMISSIONER: And that's why I was interested in your statement where you say "there have not been any occurrences during my time as manager", and that's what he was taking you to, this 18 per cent figure. I think I've got that correct, Mr Slevin. That's what you're saying?
PN2076
MR SLEVIN: 9 per cent.
PN2077
THE COMMISSIONER: 9 per cent. You're correct.
PN2078
So whilst that's what you're saying, you're acknowledging that there have been - perhaps contrary to how that is worded, but there have been, during that period - - -?---Employees that left beyond the 12-and-a-half-hour - when I put this statement together, and we're talking again in generalities, nobody had come to me with concerns - - -
PN2079
Okay. Because that's written about your time?---Yes.
PN2080
It's really about the seven months or something. How long?---15 months.
PN2081
He has identified a number of - - -?---Certainly after the TAMS data was compiled and sent to me, there was a recollection that indeed there are instances and occurrences where some employees are leaving beyond the 12 and a half hours.
PN2082
What's the number of employees there that you're dealing with? Can you recall for me the number of employees that you're looking at in that month?---The coalmining group would have been between 90 and 100.
**** CLEAVE ALLAN SIMPSON XXN MR SLEVIN
PN2083
Mr Dalton.
PN2084
MR DALTON: So in paragraph 22, that's an observation in relation to drill operators, and I think, consistent with what the witness has just said, the figures in 23 would indicate there is a residual percentage.
PN2085
THE COMMISSIONER: Let's get 15.
PN2086
MR DALTON: I beg your pardon, 15, and then there are equivalent observations in relation to each section. But the point you're getting at is, it's applicable for each of those observations. I think the witness's answer is cast across all those departments?---Correct.
PN2087
THE COMMISSIONER: So you recognise there have been, but they haven't complained about those - - -?---Correct. Yes.
PN2088
Thank you, Mr Dalton.
PN2089
MR DALTON: No re-examination. That's the respondent's evidence.
PN2090
THE COMMISSIONER: Brought it home strongly, Mr Slevin.
PN2091
MR SLEVIN: I'm sorry, Commissioner, I have - - -
PN2092
THE COMMISSIONER: You have? Shouldn't have said that.
PN2093
MR SLEVIN: I have something. I don't have a witness.
PN2094
THE COMMISSIONER: Have we finished with Mr Simpson or not?
**** CLEAVE ALLAN SIMPSON XXN MR SLEVIN
PN2095
MR SLEVIN: Sorry, we're finished with Mr Simpson.
PN2096
THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, I can't hear anything. So are we finished with the witness?
PN2097
MR SLEVIN: We are.
PN2098
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Simpson.
PN2099
MR NEIL: Mr Iliffe is not required.
PN2100
THE COMMISSIONER: No, we've tendered that. Mr Dalton has taken care of that.
PN2101
MR NEIL: We should probably say something - I'm sorry, Mr Simpson.
PN2102
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Thank you for giving your evidence, Mr Simpson.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [3.26PM]
MR NEIL: We should say something about the further TAMS data, perhaps, because we will want to reopen to tender that. Now, it is quite an involved exercise, because it does involve transposing data, which is collected and kept in one source in a way which can't be read conveniently, into another format in which it can be read. One consequence of that is the rather peculiar mixing of the afternoon and morning shifts, that's a consequence of that transposition. The second exercise, which has been done for reasons with which we need not trouble you, has been to anonymise the data, so that as it has been presented, it's actually not possible to identify - - -
PN2104
THE COMMISSIONER: I'm not interested about - I don't want to identify employees.
PN2105
MR NEIL: We didn't think that that was relevant.
PN2106
THE COMMISSIONER: The purpose is not to - unless, Mr Slevin, you don't have some - we can suppress it or whatever - about - - -
PN2107
MR NEIL: That did seem something that was desirable to us, but it is a little bit of an exercise to do those two things. I'm instructed that we won't be able to do it within one week, but two weeks is probably safer.
PN2108
THE COMMISSIONER: Can we just go off the record for a minute? I just want to have a discussion. Maybe you want to have that on the record.
PN2109
MR NEIL: Perhaps on the record, so that everyone knows.
PN2110
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN2111
MR NEIL: The last observation I should make is that, so that you, Commissioner, can have the most complete understanding, what we're looking to collect is all of the data for the life of the operation of the enterprise agreement.
PN2112
THE COMMISSIONER: So remind me how long that is, then.
PN2113
MR NEIL: Back to October 2012.
PN2114
THE COMMISSIONER: Right. So in terms of collecting that - and, you know, I'm interested to know, Mr Slevin, as well what your view of collecting that data is, but we're effectively looking at - we've got for the period of August. So are you going to go back, after about six or seven months, or are you going to do it for that whole period?
PN2115
MR NEIL: The whole life of the enterprise agreement.
PN2116
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. So you're going to take from October to the current, or something?
PN2117
MR NEIL: So then one will have a complete picture of the way in which these provisions have actually operated.
PN2118
THE COMMISSIONER: I'm not saying we'll write - I just want to understand.
PN2119
MR NEIL: So what we would envisage, if that was a convenient course, and we are very anxious to put to rest any reservations about the reliability of the sample that we have taken - - -
PN2120
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I've got a couple of different samples now. Some are three months, some are a month. Numerically, when you take a three-month sample, it affects the percentages as well that are produced, so you can't consistently - - -
PN2121
MR NEIL: What we had proposed, if this course were to suit, is that the submissions be taken tomorrow, and the arbitration will adjourn. We have two weeks to put in the data that I have described, together with such short submissions as we wish to make in relation to that data. As a raw presentation of data, it's not going to mean very much. My learned friend then have a further period of time, such more time as he requires, to respond. Then that will close the issue off. You will then have the main submissions that both parties have made, and our supplementary submissions relating to the further TAMS data.
PN2122
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Just a couple of questions. I'm not really interested in raw data. If what you're suggesting is - are you putting in pages of simply the TAMS records?
PN2123
MR NEIL: What we probably do is produce that in a way - in an electronic form, so that it's convenient, and we can tender that, but then, in our submission, set out what we submit is the effect of that data. Our learned friend will have the raw data in electronic form so that he can make the sorts of examinations that he's been cross-examining about today, and putting his submission. That will mean, if all goes according to plan, Commissioner, you will only need to be concerned with the two sets of supplementary submissions.
PN2124
THE COMMISSIONER: Can I envisage that the data you're suggesting putting in - currently I have, for example, 4 August and I have the - I think it's four categories in August (indistinct) broken down for three months - it might be only one. Is it that you are going to do that for each of the months, or are you going to just say, "Here it is for the 12 months," and we break that into four categories.
PN2125
MR NEIL: No. What we will do is we will do it - it would appear to us that the most meaningful division is to do it month by month and department by department, within each month.
PN2126
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN2127
MR NEIL: And then to have the overall position at the end, so that, Commissioner, you can select any - - -
PN2128
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, but then I would like that graphed.
PN2129
MR NEIL: We can do that.
PN2130
THE COMMISSIONER: All right, because I think that - - -
PN2131
MR NEIL: We can do that.
PN2132
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Now, in saying you can do that, I just want to be clear on the nature of the task that I'm putting into. Is that TAMS able to be just printed off, or - - -
PN2133
MR NEIL: Once those two exercises - one of transposition and one of excision - are done.
PN2134
THE COMMISSIONER: When you say "transposition" what does that involve?
PN2135
MR NEIL: It's an electronic process. It has to be taken out of one repository of data, which is kept in a particular format, and put in another format, in another repository, that is readable and sensible.
PN2136
THE COMMISSIONER: So what does that involve in terms of time and money?
PN2137
MR NEIL: Money? It's a fairly time-consuming exercise that will involve, essentially, the IT staff of the - - -
PN2138
THE COMMISSIONER: Shutting down the mine and doing this.
PN2139
MR NEIL: I don't think it will involve shutting down the mine.
PN2140
THE COMMISSIONER: I want to be clear on what - - -
PN2141
MR NEIL: It is not my appreciation - - -
PN2142
THE COMMISSIONER: Given that you can't (indistinct) TV - - -
PN2143
MR NEIL: Sorry, it my appreciation that it is a large task.
PN2144
THE COMMISSIONER: I'm not sure that I'm confident (indistinct) the instructions - - -
PN2145
MR NEIL: Commissioner, please accept that I'm just an amanuensis here. If I became involved in actually doing it myself, I would be asking for a two-year adjournment rather than the two-week adjournment.
PN2146
THE COMMISSIONER: No, but I am being serious in the sense that I do want to be confident of those figures, but I also want to be mindful of the task that - - -
PN2147
MR NEIL: My appreciation is that it is a large task, but it is a task that we wish to undertake.
PN2148
THE COMMISSIONER: All right.
PN2149
MR NEIL: Because we do want to ensure that a relatively important part of our case is on a footing that you regard as secure.
PN2150
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Slevin, do you need to give that some consideration and take some instructions?
PN2151
MR SLEVIN: I do, Commissioner. What's exercising my mind is, because it's such a big part of my friend's case, if we come and have submissions tomorrow, and then we end up with this data, then the ground moves, as it were.
PN2152
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN2153
MR SLEVIN: Whether going to submissions tomorrow is going to be a useful exercise in those circumstances. Can I get instructions on that, though, Commissioner? There was something I was going to do when I rose earlier.
PN2154
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN2155
MR SLEVIN: I should have provided this to my friends earlier in the day but I was preoccupied with other things. This is a document that goes to a question - it's on another topic altogether, for a moment - it goes to Mr Stelmach's evidence yesterday about the vote. I've got a company document that announced the results of the vote - - -
PN2156
THE COMMISSIONER: The date of the vote.
PN2157
MR SLEVIN: - - - and the date of the vote, and I was going to seek leave to tender that.
PN2158
THE COMMISSIONER: The acoustics are bad. I thought you said "the boat".
PN2159
MR NEIL: We don't object.
PN2160
THE COMMISSIONER: All right.
PN2161
MR SLEVIN: I tender that document, Commissioner, and I wonder if we might have a short adjournment so I can get instructions on that.
PN2162
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN2163
MR NEIL: If there's going to be some proposal in relation to the submissions, then it would seem desirable to sort that out this afternoon if we can.
PN2164
THE COMMISSIONER: Absolutely, yes.
PN2165
MR SLEVIN: Perhaps I can have some discussions with my learned friends - - -
PN2166
THE COMMISSIONER: We're ahead of our schedule, so how long do you want? 20 minutes or - - -
PN2167
MR SLEVIN: 15 minutes would be fine.
PN2168
THE COMMISSIONER: 15 minutes?
PN2169
MR SLEVIN: Yes.
PN2170
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. We'll come back about 10 to.
PN2171
MR NEIL: Yes, thank you.
PN2172
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Thank you.
<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [3.35PM]
<RESUMED [4.03PM]
PN2173
THE COMMISSIONER: Please be seated. Thank you. Before I took you off course, Mr Slevin, you wanted to tender that document - sorry, Mr Neil. So we'll mark that - as I understand, that records the date of the vote on the second page.
PN2174
MR SLEVIN: It does. Yes, your Honour.
PN2175
THE COMMISSIONER: So we'll mark that - well, it's a BMA publication with the ballot results attached. Is that correct?
PN2176
MR SLEVIN: That's correct.
PN2177
THE COMMISSIONER: We'll mark that as exhibit 23.
EXHIBIT #23 BMA PUBLICATION WITH BALLOT RESULTS ATTACHED
THE COMMISSIONER: Now, who wanted to start on the issues we're discussing?
PN2179
MR NEIL: The joint proposal, subject, Commissioner, to your own views of course is that Mr Slevin would feel better equipped to deal with our submissions if he had everything at once. If that were to happen, then this is what is proposed: we adjourn now, the evidence having concluded by for the TAMS data. Within two weeks of today's date, which is the 23rd, we will file and serve the TAMS data, a graphical representation of - the TAMS data in electronic form, a graphical representation of the TAMS data so that you have it as a summary of what that data shows, and all of our submissions on all issues including the new TAMS data. Our learned friend would then want a further week, which takes us to the 30th, to file and serve his response on all issues. If you could accommodate us for perhaps half a day some time at a convenient time after the 30th - - -
PN2180
THE COMMISSIONER: So we're looking the first week in November?
PN2181
MR NEIL: Just subject to availability.
PN2182
THE COMMISSIONER: No, we're not. We're looking - I'll find a time. That's all right. I'm thinking that I may be able to find a date in Sydney. I'm mindful of the costs of everyone coming back to Queensland.
PN2183
MR NEIL: Sydney or even Brisbane might actually be a little bit cheaper from our point of view.
PN2184
THE COMMISSIONER: Is it?
PN2185
MR NEIL: Yes.
PN2186
THE COMMISSIONER: I thought that the most expensive parties were in Sydney and Melbourne.
PN2187
MR NEIL: I couldn't possibly respond to that. But we thought Brisbane, if that was a convenient course.
PN2188
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well, it's convenient for me, but I am mindful - - -
PN2189
MR NEIL: I think that's what we would prefer.
PN2190
THE COMMISSIONER: I should say even though Mr Slevin has asked for that, that's what I was actually considering doing so that CFMEU don't think that they've simply taken the matter off course. I think it is more orderly to get all of the material together.
PN2191
MR NEIL: We are confident that this will ensure that everyone has a fair opportunity to deal with the new material.
PN2192
THE COMMISSIONER: I just feel as though I've got a duty to inform - the commission has the duty to inform itself, and that there will always perhaps be a reservation if I don't seek the additional data.
PN2193
MR NEIL: We are very comfortable with this course.
PN2194
THE COMMISSIONER: I am informed that the exercise, and I have to say my IT has significant limitations in my IT experience, but I'm informed that that data could be pulled and done on an Excel spreadsheet, and it may not - I mean, I'm coming from a point where I don't know the BMA, I don't want to know all the BMA statistics, but I'm just - I don't want to - for you to go back to your principles. This is an enormously expensive exercise.
PN2195
MR NEIL: We understand. We're going to try and do it in the most efficient way.
PN2196
THE COMMISSIONER: All right.
PN2197
MR NEIL: Really time is the factor. It just takes time.
PN2198
THE COMMISSIONER: The other thing through is that - I had said before the break that perhaps the raw data we would take the names out, and I'm wondering whether it should be produced in exactly the same way, but I'm quite comfortable in making a suppression order in relation to those. Have you got a view on that, Mr Slevin?
PN2199
MR SLEVIN: Well, we don't require the names.
PN2200
THE COMMISSIONER: All I'm wanting is to be consistent, and the current documents had the names, didn't they? No, they didn't. Not all of them did. Some of them did though, didn't they?
PN2201
MR SLEVIN: No, there were a couple of formats. Some had Xs where the name used to be, others just seemed to leave them out altogether.
PN2202
THE COMMISSIONER: That's all right.
PN2203
MR NEIL: Could we leave that, Commissioner, as a subject to be discussed between us?
PN2204
THE COMMISSIONER: That's fine. If you come to an agreement on that - I thought there was some that had names, but I'm quite confident if the parties come to an agreement - most of them don't. You're quite right. I don't know where I got that one set from that did.
PN2205
MR SLEVIN: Saraji.
PN2206
THE COMMISSIONER: Saraji I think did. But that's an issue - - -
PN2207
MR NEIL: Supervisors' names are included, but not production employees.
PN2208
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, I'm - - -
PN2209
MR NEIL: Part of our reservation relates to - - -
PN2210
THE COMMISSIONER: Privacy.
PN2211
MR NEIL: And an arrangement we have with the applicant. So we should discuss that between us, perhaps.
PN2212
THE COMMISSIONER: That's fine. All right. So I'll set some directions then. I'm going to exit first because I want to get on a 7 pm flight and I want to see if I can get the reservation before you. But what we're looking at is just two weeks, one week. Did you want a further week before the date?
PN2213
MR NEIL: In terms of availability - - -
PN2214
THE COMMISSIONER: That's what I was going to ask.
PN2215
MR NEIL: Could you accommodate us on either 12, 13, 14 or 15 November? 12, 13 or 14 November, sorry. We think for about half a day.
PN2216
THE COMMISSIONER: Look, the answer is I don't know at this point, but I can find out pretty quickly. If you can come back, if you can talk to Mr Slevin and the other parties and come back with what is the preferable - any of those three days is what you're talking?
PN2217
MR NEIL: From our point of view at the bar table now, any one of those three days would be suitable, and there are no witnesses whose convenience needs to be consulted.
PN2218
THE COMMISSIONER: So I'll come back to you quite quickly, in fact by tomorrow. Actually I think we've got a BMA dispute.
PN2219
MR NEIL: I'm just told that you might have different time to us.
PN2220
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. That's what Camilla has just said. I've got a BMA hearing.
PN2221
MR NEIL: We're apparently content if time priority be given to this matter in those days.
PN2222
THE COMMISSIONER: Right. Okay. Well, I'd probably prefer to get the other one started and do this one on the last day. I'm not going to be able to write it when I'm obviously in the middle of that.
PN2223
MR NEIL: That rather points to Thursday the 14th.
PN2224
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, why don't you check your diaries. It will be the 14th - 14th and 15th you've given me, haven't you? Or just the 14th?
PN2225
MR NEIL: Just the 14th.
PN2226
THE COMMISSIONER: But having said that, you know, if that becomes a difficulty, we can move it around, or BMA could settle the other matter.
PN2227
MR SLEVIN: We could settle this matter.
PN2228
THE COMMISSIONER: I'll put directions out, I'll come back to you with an email about the proposed date, and if you can come back fairly quickly in relation to that particular date. In the submissions, if there is going to be reliance on evidence, given that you've got additional time, I'd like reference to transcript - transcript references. I've put an urgent order on yesterday's transcript and today's, so you should get that hopefully by - the latest would probably be the end of this week. All right? I don't think there's any other matters, is there?
PN2229
MR NEIL: No. Not for the applicant.
PN2230
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. We'll adjourn on that basis.
<ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [4.12PM]
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs
EXHIBIT #13 CD ENTITLED LIFE OF A MINE PN913
JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS, AFFIRMED PN955
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR NEIL PN955
EXHIBIT #14 STATEMENT OF JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS PN969
EXHIBIT #15 FURTHER STATEMENT OF JUSTIN PAUL KINDERIS PN969
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SLEVIN PN1240
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN1539
JOSHUA JOHN BURKE, AFFIRMED PN1550
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DALTON PN1550
EXHIBIT #16 STATEMENT OF JOSHUA JOHN BURKE PN1560
EXHIBIT #17 A3 AERIAL MAP OF RAMP 12, RAMP 14 PN1580
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SLEVIN PN1656
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DALTON PN1743
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN1749
JUSTIN ROBERT SAMPSON, AFFIRMED PN1779
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DALTON PN1779
EXHIBIT #18 STATEMENT OF JUSTIN ROBERT SAMPSON PN1789
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SLEVIN PN1793
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN1817
TYSON JAY HAMMER, SWORN PN1828
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DALTON PN1828
EXHIBIT #19 STATEMENT OF TYSON JAY HAMMER PN1835
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SLEVIN PN1836
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN1862
EXHIBIT #20 STATEMENT OF DANIEL ILIFFE PN1867
AMOS BRIAN LAWSON, AFFIRMED PN1870
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DALTON PN1870
EXHIBIT #21 STATEMENT OF AMOS BRIAN LAWSON PN1878
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SLEVIN PN1879
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN2002
CLEAVE ALLAN SIMPSON, SWORN PN2005
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DALTON PN2005
EXHIBIT #22 STATEMENT OF CLEAVE SIMPSON PN2015
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SLEVIN PN2017
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN2103
EXHIBIT #23 BMA PUBLICATION WITH BALLOT RESULTS ATTACHED PN2178
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