|
|
Home
| Databases
| WorldLII
| Search
| Feedback
Fair Work Commission Transcripts |
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Fair Work Act 2009 1050514-1
COMMISSIONER STEEL
C2013/1016
s.739 - Application to deal with a dispute
Independent Education Union of Australia
and
The Anglican Church of Australia Collegiate School of St Peter T/A St Peter's College
(C2013/1016)
St Peter's College Enterprise Agreement 2012
(ODN AG2012/12948)
[AE899029 Print PR532687]]
Adelaide
10.09AM, WEDNESDAY, 20 AUGUST 2014
Continued from 19/08/2014
PN2178
MR ABBOTT: Good morning, Commissioner.
PN2179
THE COMMISSIONER: Good morning.
PN2180
MR ABBOTT: Ms DiMonte is our first witness.
PN2181
MR WELLS: I wonder perhaps before my friend commences if I can just make the point for the day, once and only once as before. That is, we understand that these statements are being put forward as the evidence-in-chief of the witness. Although clearly enough at your discretion, Commissioner, it's open to my friend to lead oral evidence which might be seen as providing appropriate or relevant additions; it's not a question of rewriting the witness statement. I'm only going to say it once, but I understand, Commissioner, that we intend it to apply to all witnesses who have produced witness statements and are putting them forward as being their evidence-in-chief.
PN2182
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Wells.
PN2183
MR ABBOTT: And if I might respond to that. First of all, these witness statements were prepared of course before we received their witness statements. That of itself has raised a number of issues because of the position that the school has taken. That in itself has caused us to make a far greater search for documents in view of the vigour with which all our claims are contested, so that it should be no surprise to my learned friend that we now have sought to re-proof our witnesses and to have them give evidence about further documents that have been produced.
PN2184
In that vein, because of the claims of denial of due process that my learned friend has continually made, I would like to inform him and the commission that I intend to - if I have time after the conclusion of proceedings tonight - proof Mr Barry Morrison. In view of the position that has been taken about the tendering of documents and what I apprehend to be the complaint that's going to be made if the Rules of Evidence are not strictly followed in relation to the tendering of documents, we may well need to call him to give evidence because he is the author of some of the documents in the book.
PN2185
We were met yesterday with, well, this document can't go in because the author is not here, et cetera. Because Mr Morrison appears to be the author, I'll need to speak to him and I intend to proof him. At the first opportunity I have, I will make a statement of Mr Morrison available if we intend to call him. I hope he's available. I've asked my instructing solicitor to set in train for me to meet him so that I can proof him on the basis that only he can give strict proof of the origin of some of these documents.
PN2186
MR WELLS: I'm grateful to my friend for that indication, Commissioner, and can I just invite him to provide us with a list of the documents in respect of which he would be seeking to proof Mr Morrison so we can consider as to those; whether there are any that he identifies that he says are the product of Mr Morrison's pen which then we can consider our position on.
PN2187
MR ABBOTT: Well, after I've spoken to Mr Morrison. I want him to go through and identify the documents. Today I've had produced to me and I intend to put in through this witness, the documents for the St Peter's College and Penn Positive Education Training Conference from 9 to 14 July 2012. These documents included the document which is at tab 79, which we've described in our book of documents as "Document entitled St Peter's College Staff Benefits provided to staff by the employer as part of the papers for a six-day conference entitled Positive Education in June 2012."
PN2188
In fact the conference ran, as we now know, from 9 to 14 July, but the document which is at tab 79 is a glossy piece of paper which was contained with the delegate welcome pack. Ms DiMonte will be giving some evidence of that, because he is the first witness since we've been able to put our hands on a set of these documents. The conference is also discussed in Ms Cinnamond's statement, as well. We'll be producing these and if the commission would be good enough to copy them. I haven't been able to have copies made before starting this witness, but my learned friend is well aware of them.
PN2189
MR WELLS: He shouldn't assume that.
PN2190
MR ABBOTT: Well, I can only then assume it's a paucity of instructions you - - -
PN2191
THE COMMISSIONER: They're in Mr Abbott's hand and he intends to produce them through this witness, so let's deal with the logistics.
PN2192
MR ABBOTT: Yes.
PN2193
THE COMMISSIONER: How many copies do we need?
PN2194
MR ABBOTT: Three copies perhaps.
PN2195
THE COMMISSIONER: You've got originals of each, have you?
PN2196
MR ABBOTT: I've got the original glossies which I propose to tender, so if we could tender those and maybe a copy - - -
PN2197
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, let's copy them and see how we go.
PN2198
MR ABBOTT: Yes.
PN2199
THE COMMISSIONER: Are there any other documents we need to copy?
PN2200
MR ABBOTT: The standard procedures document has been copied.
PN2201
THE COMMISSIONER: That's another version?
PN2202
MR ABBOTT: Yes, another version. We have an original and a copy for the commission. Can that be tendered without - - -
PN2203
MR WELLS: I'm happy for it - I don't know anything about - - -
PN2204
MR ABBOTT: I won't engage in a discussion with my learned friend, but this is a document we kept on referring - we have a second copy. For my learned friend to say he knows nothing about it, it's the school document. If there's an objection to it being tendered, I'll resist the tender, merely give him a copy and we'll leave it to a witness to tender it. Can I hand up a copy - - -
PN2205
MR WELLS: I'm happy for them to be marked for identification.
PN2206
MR ABBOTT: This is why we need Mr Morrison. There is an original and one copy of a second strike of the standard procedures. If that could be given an MFI number before we start.
PN2207
THE COMMISSIONER: It will be A22, Mr Abbott.
MFI #A22 SECOND STANDARD PROCEDURES DOCUMENT
MR ABBOTT: If the witness could be sworn or - - -
PN2209
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, let's have the documents, if I may.
PN2210
MR ABBOTT: Very well, Commissioner.
PN2211
THE COMMISSIONER: So we don't interrupt the proceedings while the witness is present again.
PN2212
MR ABBOTT: Do you wish to stand down then for five minutes?
PN2213
THE COMMISSIONER: No, I'd rather stay today.
PN2214
MR ABBOTT: Thank you.
PN2215
THE COMMISSIONER: I'll be tidying things up here, if I may.
PN2216
THE ASSOCIATE: I'm not sure how long this might take me, Commissioner.
PN2217
THE COMMISSIONER: Have a look first and then let me know.
PN2218
THE ASSOCIATE: It will take probably five minutes at least, Commissioner.
PN2219
THE COMMISSIONER: I'll stand down. We'll adjourn until they're copied. Thank you.
<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [10.17AM]
<RESUMED [10.41AM]
PN2220
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Abbott?
PN2221
MR ABBOTT: Thank you, Commissioner. I'll proceed with Ms Wendy DiMonte.
<WENDY GAYE DIMONTE, SWORN [10.42AM]
THE ASSOCIATE: Please state your full name?---Wendy Gaye DiMonte.
PN2223
Your address?---(address supplied).
PN2224
And your occupation?---I'm a teacher.
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR ABBOTT [10.42AM]
MR ABBOTT: Ms DiMonte, you're a teacher employed at St Peter's College in the junior school?---That's right.
PN2226
And I think you have been since you started in March 2003?---Yes.
PN2227
Would you look at your statement, please, of two pages. Do you have that in front of you? Could you just confirm that's your statement and you've signed it on 1 April 2014?---Yes, that's right. I think I might have started in May actually, because it was second term. Probably not March.
PN2228
Right. Okay. The statement contains some of the evidence you want to give about the matters touching this hearing?---Yes, that's right.
PN2229
I tender the statement of Wendy DiMonte.
PN2230
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wells, any issues?
PN2231
MR WELLS: No.
PN2232
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. That will be A23.
EXHIBIT #A23 STATEMENT OF MS DIMONTE SIGNED 01/04/2014
PN2233
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XN MR ABBOTT
MR ABBOTT: You say in your statement that you work in the junior school and in paragraph 4, after in paragraph 3 saying that you didn't recall any mention of meals being mentioned during the course of being employed - could I just ask you, how did it come about that you, first of all, was applied for a job and was then interviewed? What happened?---Well, I was wanting to get back into teaching and I was aware of a position available at St Peter's College.
PN2234
You'd seen the advert, had you?---I'd seen the advert in the paper.
PN2235
Yes?---I was hesitating about it, but a friend of mine who was also working at the school - her name is Anne Lane. She was the music secretary in the junior school at the time - really encouraged me to apply.
PN2236
Did she tell you something about the benefits that were enjoyed by teachers at the school?---I think she did. I can't recall exactly, but she was trying to sell it to me because she wanted me to apply for the position.
PN2237
I think the position that was advertised was for a junior primary teacher and it mentioned that you would be replacing someone who was going on maternity leave?---That's right.
PN2238
However, when you went for the job interview you were offered, I think, a full-time position. Is that right?---Well, it was full-time, but I was offered a permanent position, where I thought it might be contract.
PN2239
I'm sorry, not full-time, permanent?---Yes.
PN2240
A permanent position I mean, yes?---Yes.
PN2241
Say that again. You thought it would be a contract or what - - -?---I thought it would be a contract because it was replacing someone on maternity leave.
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XN MR ABBOTT
PN2242
Yes, but it wasn't?---But it wasn't. I think the school had an opportunity - had the flexibility to be able to offer me permanency, so they did and I was grateful for that.
PN2243
You say, in paragraph 4, once you commenced work it was immediately clear that lunches and morning teas were provided. Just tell us what led up to that and why you've said that in your statement, please?---Well, I think right at the beginning the teacher who worked alongside me was welcoming me in and settling me in, and made sure that I had my lunch order for the week filled out.
PN2244
Why was that necessary?---Because in the junior school the lunches have to be brought down from Da Costa and it's not easy for the junior school teachers to get across to the dining room, so we have to order ours a week ahead, where I don't think the senior schoolteachers did that.
PN2245
So on day one a colleague mentioned to you - - -?---Yes.
PN2246
Right?---Yes, I think so.
PN2247
About getting your order for your lunches in?---That's right.
PN2248
And did you put your order in?---Yes.
PN2249
Did you have lunches provided?---Yes, every day.
PN2250
And morning teas?---Yes. Morning teas were always in the staffroom. In our common room.
PN2251
Did that continue until 2013?---That's right.
PN2252
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XN MR ABBOTT
In addition to that aspect, I should take you to your - we have a volume of documents there. Would you, please, look at tab 38.
You see there a letter of 17 March 2003, which will no doubt be described to you as a letter of offer of a permanent teaching position
and your response by letter dated 19 March 2003?
---Yes.
PN2253
You were at that stage known as Mrs Wendy Maher?---That's correct.
PN2254
Those two documents relate to your employment at the school in March 2003?
---Yes. Signed in March, to commence in the second term of school.
PN2255
Yes, term 2, 2003?---Yes.
PN2256
I tender those two documents as one exhibit.
PN2257
THE COMMISSIONER: That will be A24.
EXHIBIT #A24 MS DIMONTE'S LETTER OF OFFER DATED 17/03/2003 AND RESPONSE DATED 19/03/2003
MR ABBOTT: Now, I want to go to another occasion that you talk about when the fact that meals had been and continued to be provided to you were, according to your statement, mentioned. That is in the context of what you say in paragraph 5 and following of your statement. You say that you recall a meeting held in the Higgins Hall at the college. What sort of meeting was it?---It was one of the professional development days that we have at the beginning of term.
PN2259
And was it customary for there to be a meeting at the beginning of the school year or at the beginning of term?---Yes. Almost every term there is a meeting such as this. Usually with the combined staff, but occasionally depending on what the senior school might be doing - the senior staff might be doing - sometimes it was held separately.
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XN MR ABBOTT
PN2260
And this meeting that you recall, to the best of your recollection, you think it was in late 2005?---Yes, but I am unsure of the exact date.
PN2261
You think it was the professional development meeting that occurred at the start of term 3 for the 2005 year?---Yes, I think so. Either, yes, term 3 or term 4. I don't recall.
PN2262
Term 3 or term 4, right. Now, casting your mind back to that meeting, you've mentioned in your statement Mr Paul Fielding being there.
Who else was there?
---I assume it was - Mr Birchnall was the head at the time, so he possibly was there, but I don't recall specifically. Probably Mr
Chris Lange, who was the head of the junior school, would have been there. Paul Fielding obviously came, too.
PN2263
But you do remember being at this meeting and a number of your co-workers being there?---Yes.
PN2264
From the junior school. Correct?---Yes, definitely.
PN2265
And you remember Mr Fielding being there, and speaking to the meeting?---Yes.
PN2266
At the meeting. Is that right?---That's correct.
PN2267
I think you also relate this time of meeting to some knowledge that you learnt about Pulteney Grammar School teachers, do you not?---That's right.
PN2268
Tell the Commissioner why Pulteney Grammar School teachers help you fix the time of this meeting?---At the time it just became knowledge - I don't know whether it was in the papers, but teachers found out that Pulteney Grammar School staff were going to be charged for their parking. They had had free parking up until that point. So that's why I believe Paul Fielding made the comment to all of us that although times were grim, we would still have our jobs and we'd still get our free lunches and we'd still get free parking. We laughed at it, because I guess the size of our school and the thought of having to pay for our parking seemed ludicrous, but maybe it's not.
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XN MR ABBOTT
PN2269
This was in the context of Mr Fielding giving a presentation about the financial position of the school, was it?---Yes, that's right.
PN2270
Did he say what the point of that was or did you glean what the point of that was?
---He painted a grim picture.
PN2271
Yes?---And I think he was talking about the amount of debt the school had and talking about that the enrolments were a concern at that time, and I think he was trying to say that, you know, compared to other schools though, we may not be in too bad a position; that at least we'd have our jobs. If I recall correctly - and I didn't write this - I think it was also in relation to, "You might not - don't be expecting big salary rises, but at least you've got your jobs."
PN2272
And your lunches and your parking?---Yes.
PN2273
Does that exhaust your memory of that meeting, what you've just said?---Yes, pretty much, I think.
PN2274
I now want to ask you about the junior school handbook. First of all, would you look at tab 25 and also tab 100. That's in another volume. These are two versions of the junior school handbook. Tab 25 is a single page from the - can you confirm that that appears to be what you recognise as a page out of the junior school handbook. I'm not suggesting you know the year of it or - - -?---No.
PN2275
- - - which iteration that is, but you recognise the junior school handbook, do you not?---Yes. A small A5 booklet like that, yes.
PN2276
And you'll see there's a reference to "Staff lunch". When you started, I think a copy of the junior school staff handbook was available to you?---Yes, there was one in my classroom.
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XN MR ABBOTT
PN2277
I apply to tender the document behind tab 25.
PN2278
THE COMMISSIONER: I didn't hear Ms DiMonte actually say that she recognises it as a page from that handbook. Could I just confirm that?
PN2279
MR ABBOTT: I'll ask her - - -?---Yes, I do.
PN2280
Do you recognise that as a page from the junior school handbook?---I do recognise it.
PN2281
A copy of which you had available to you when you joined in 2003, in your classroom?---Yes, that's correct.
PN2282
MR WELLS: No objection.
PN2283
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Wells. A25 for tab 25.
EXHIBIT #A25 PAGE FROM JUNIOR SCHOOL HANDBOOK
MR ABBOTT: Document 25 is A25. I now go to document 100, which is a printout of the junior school handbook as at - do you see the date down the bottom right-hand corner - 27 August 2013?---Yes.
PN2285
I think by 2012 and 2013, the junior school handbook was online?---Yes, available to us.
PN2286
Could you tell us how it was online, please?---It was available on Keystone, so that we could - - -
PN2287
Keystone, being the Intranet?---The Intranet that all the staff have access to at St Peter's College.
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XN MR ABBOTT
PN2288
And you had access to it, and you were able to access the junior school handbook in 2012 and 2013?---Yes.
PN2289
Would you just confirm for me - look at page 9 of 11. You'll see there's a reference to staff lunches?---Yes, that's correct.
PN2290
And does that appear to be, to you, a correct description insofar as it goes: "Lunch is provided to staff. Meals are emailed to all staff." Sorry, menus, not meals. "Menus are emailed to all staff"?---Yes.
PN2291
MR WELLS: It will happen one day.
PN2292
MR ABBOTT: By Amazon - - -?---Yes. That was the arrangement, yes.
PN2293
And it was their responsibility to place an order in the appropriate pigeonhole in the staff common room?---Yes, that's certainly how it worked in the junior school.
PN2294
You're not served your food through the pigeonhole, I take it?---No, just the order.
PN2295
The order.
PN2296
THE COMMISSIONER: It's only the third day.
PN2297
MR ABBOTT: Yes.
PN2298
So that's the situation in this document that pertained at least in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, is it, until they were taken away?---Yes. My entire time - - -
PN2299
Menus being emailed?---Yes. The emailing was for a few years.
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XN MR ABBOTT
PN2300
Only for a few years, yes?---Prior to that, I think there was a list up that we could look at.
PN2301
Otherwise, a list?---Yes.
PN2302
I apply to tender the document behind tab 100, the 27 August 2013 version of the junior school handbook.
PN2303
THE COMMISSIONER: That will be A26.
EXHIBIT #A26 JUNIOR SCHOOL HANDBOOK VERSION 27/08/2013
MR ABBOTT: Just going back to the version behind tab 25, which is our exhibit A25, it's a bit difficult to ascertain what the second
sentence means: "Lunch is provided for staff. Hot, cold or sandwiches are provided." When you started, were you offered
a choice of hot meals, cold meals or sandwiches?
---That's true. That's correct.
PN2305
So we should read into that, "Hot meals, cold meals or sandwiches are provided"?---Yes.
PN2306
Do you know who Sue W. or Narelle are who were organising the orders?---I think Sue might have been Chris Lange's secretary, who was the junior school head. Narelle was the head of Palm House in the junior school.
PN2307
Thank you very much?---In the junior primary.
PN2308
So initially the orders were done manually and later electronically. Is that the situation?---That's correct, yes.
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XN MR ABBOTT
PN2309
I think in addition to what is in your statement, you took part in the conference which was from 9 to 14 July 2012; the St Peter's College and Penn Positive Education Training Conference?---Yes, I did.
PN2310
Would you look at the three documents, the originals of which are with the commission?---Thank you.
PN2311
I know these are not all the documents that were handed out, but, first of all, did you get the Delegate Welcome Package?---Yes, I did.
PN2312
Which you'll see on page 1 has a photograph of - I assume that's Mr Murray?
---Yes.
PN2313
And that consists of some 19 pages. Did you also receive a one-page document, which is now in two pages, titled Positive Education Conference Skills Overview? It's actually a one-page document, but we've photocopied it as two pages?---Yes.
PN2314
And did you also receive St Peter's College Staff Benefits, being a one-page document?---Yes, I think that was also in the package.
PN2315
I apply to tender those three documents.
PN2316
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wells, have you had time to look at them?
PN2317
MR WELLS: No, I haven't. I wonder if you could mark them for the moment. I'll attempt to look at them perhaps before the witness has completed her evidence, even if I need to take a moment at the bar table with your leave.
PN2318
THE COMMISSIONER: That's fine. We'll make that A27 for the three of them combined.
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XN MR ABBOTT
MFI #A27 DELEGATE WELCOME PACKAGE; POSITIVE EDUCATION CONFERENCE SKILLS OVERVIEW; ST PETER'S COLLEGE STAFF BENEFITS DOCUMENT
MR ABBOTT: And could the transcript record that the one-page document of exhibit A27 is the document behind tab 79 in our book of documents.
PN2320
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wells, it seems to be the same document?
PN2321
MR WELLS: Yes. Thank you. I'm just checking it, but I think that's so, yes.
PN2322
THE COMMISSIONER: Document 79.
PN2323
MR ABBOTT: Would you look at document 78 in the book of documents, please?---Yes.
PN2324
Did you receive that email from the headmaster, consisting of 10 pages?---Yes, I think all staff received that as an attachment.
PN2325
I'm sorry?---All staff received that as an attachment to an email.
PN2326
I tender the email of 4 May 2012. It's an email containing what the headmaster has described as the school's final offer.
PN2327
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wells, any issues with document 78?
PN2328
MR WELLS: You'll see at the top right-hand corner of that document there is a reference to SM4, which is attachment 4 to Mr Murray's statement.
PN2329
THE COMMISSIONER: So there's no issue with accepting it on this basis then. That will be A28.
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XN MR ABBOTT
EXHIBIT #A28 EMAIL FROM HEADMASTER DATED 04/05/2012
MR ABBOTT: Did you thereafter take part in some of the discussions after the 2012 enterprise agreement had been approved, but thereafter when staff lunches were withdrawn? Did you take part in some of those discussions?---Discussions with whom are you referring?
PN2331
I'm referring to the Industrial Relations Consultative Committee meeting of 31 May 2013, which is behind tab 89. It's also exhibited to Ms Cinnamond's affidavit?---Yes.
PN2332
Or statement - as AC28?---Yes, I sit on that committee. I'm a member of that committee and I was present, as you can see.
PN2333
Could you look at that, please, and confirm - I think you've looked at it recently - that those minutes set out in summary form some of the issues that were discussed at that Industrial Relations Consultative Committee meeting?---Yes, to the best of my recollection.
PN2334
I apply to tender that document.
PN2335
THE COMMISSIONER: Document 89 is tendered and it will get a citation of A29.
EXHIBIT #A29 INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS CONSULTATIVE COMMITTEE MEETING OF 31/05/2013
MR ABBOTT: Would you go on to the next document, 90. I think you received that document, as well?---Yes, that was an email sent to all staff.
PN2337
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XN MR ABBOTT
Yes. I tender that document.
PN2338
MR WELLS: Just pardon me for a moment.
PN2339
MR ABBOTT: This is an email from Jason Haseldine to all staff on the topic of catering from term 3, 2013. It's dated 6 June 2013.
PN2340
THE COMMISSIONER: Exhibit A30.
EXHIBIT #A30 EMAIL FROM JASON HASELDINE TO ALL STAFF DATED 06/06/2013
MR ABBOTT: When you got that document, you read it?---Yes, I did.
PN2342
You realised that Mr Haseldine was the bearer of bad tidings to the school, as it were?---That's true.
PN2343
Did you respond? I suggest you look at the next document?---Yes, I did.
PN2344
Yes?---And you can see that I said, "Thanks, Jason. Very succinct," because I guess he had pre-empted all the questions we'd have and he answered them, but that wasn't to say that I was happy with the decision. I felt for Jason Haseldine because I knew he was the bearer of the news, but he wasn't the person - or group who decided - made that decision, so I just thought it's not - - -
PN2345
You thought why shoot the messenger?---It wasn't an easy position.
PN2346
He was the messenger?---Yes.
PN2347
The document behind tab 91 is your response?---That's right.
PN2348
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XN MR ABBOTT
The email of 6 June, responding to Jason Haseldine's email that we've just tendered. Yes, I apply to tender that email.
PN2349
THE COMMISSIONER: A31, document 91.
EXHIBIT #A31 EMAIL FROM WENDY DIMONTE TO JASON HASELDINE DATED 06/06/2013
MR ABBOTT: Far from being happy with the decision, I think you were quite - - -
PN2351
MR WELLS: No, don't - - -
PN2352
MR ABBOTT: What was your state of mind when you learnt that the lunches you had enjoyed for several years had been unilaterally withdrawn without notice to the staff?
PN2353
MR WELLS: Well, I object to that.
PN2354
THE COMMISSIONER: You object to - - -
PN2355
MR WELLS: It's an incorrect statement of the position. Perhaps it would be enough for the question to be, "What was your state of mind?" but my friend adds the bits that are inaccurate.
PN2356
MR ABBOTT: Well, they're not inaccurate.
PN2357
MR WELLS: They are.
PN2358
MR ABBOTT: For the sake of getting on with this case, I'll remove the - and just ask what was your state of mind?---I was very disappointed in the decision for a number of reasons.
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XN MR ABBOTT
PN2359
Yes?---I don't know if this is the right time to share that.
PN2360
Yes, tell us the reasons?---The reason why I've continued to hang in there with being involved with this process was, firstly, because I didn't think due process was followed. Staff were not a part of the negotiation at all and I felt that it was not correct that working conditions of staff should be changed without any consultation. That was my first point, apart from the goodwill it had always given us and the sense of wellbeing of staff that had been shared with us.
PN2361
Could you expand on that a little more, please?---The wellbeing?
PN2362
Yes, the wellbeing and the sharing - the provision of the lunches engendered amongst the staff, please?---Well, speaking for myself, I know that it was an unusual thing for a school to have lunches. I don't know of another in Adelaide where lunches were provided free of charge, but it was part of what made it feel a bit special to be teaching at St Peter's College and to feel valued. There were a whole lot of other things. Like, for instance, it brought staff together because we always - most of the teachers would order their lunch and so we'd come together each day. The lunches were all delivered to the junior school and were in a central position, and we'd all come together and - because you'd pick up your lunch there, you'd generally sit down and chat. The same with the morning tea; it brought people together and you could chat over all sort of things; children you were teaching and - it was very collegial and there was a sense of loss with that. The other thing I was going to say is that apart from the process being less than satisfactory, I also felt particularly concerned for those staff members such as grounds and maintenance staff and educational assistants who are on a far lesser salary than teachers. Knowing that it had also been provided to them, I thought there was a significant percentage of their benefits and, in effect, almost income that they were losing through the loss of the lunches.
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XN MR ABBOTT
PN2363
So the unilateral removal for all was, you thought, a harder loss for those on a lesser salary to - - -?---Yes.
PN2364
Have you made it your business to speak to other teachers and to ascertain their views? Other members of staff, I should say?---I had, up until I became a witness and I was aware that there was a certain degree of confidentiality.
PN2365
Yes?---To not elicit opinions from other people. But, opinions have come to me and in fact last week I was the one who - I don't know if it's - - -
PN2366
Please tell us?---Yes. Last week when the staff called a SPCTA meeting, which is the teacher association meeting - on Friday - members who were there wanted to know how they could support this cause, I guess you could say, and they wanted to sign something; so a piece of paper was put down that they supported the actions of the IEU in the meals dispute. There were a lot of junior schoolteachers who couldn't be at that meeting and so I also went around some of the junior school afterwards to see if people would like to sign it.
PN2367
And that was a meeting last Friday, was it?---It was last Friday, yes.
PN2368
Why was that meeting called?---I think it was in response - well, I know it was in response to the headmaster talking in both common rooms to say that this - - -
PN2369
That's senior and junior common rooms?---Yes.
PN2370
Senior school and junior school?---I believe it was in the senior - because he usually would always make sure that both - all the staff hear the messages at the same time or as close to as possible.
PN2371
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XN MR ABBOTT
You heard him at the junior school, did you?---Yes. I was on duty actually, so I wasn't there, but I'm aware of the gist of what he was saying; mentioning about the trial, mentioning for staff to be discrete, the media - - -
PN2372
It's actually an arbitration, but it might sound like a trial?---Arbitration. Sorry to use the wrong word.
PN2373
More of a tribulation than a trial?---Yes, sorry - but he did also mention that staff who were prepared to give evidence would have to give their time without pay. The reason why this meeting was called last Friday was because there were teachers who strongly felt that that was not a good thing; that the teachers who had been prepared to stand up and give evidence should be able out of pocket or inconvenienced in any way - disadvantaged in any way. So a motion was put forward at that meeting that using the SPCTA funds - because there are funds sitting there in an account for no specific reason - would be used to reimburse teachers who might be out of pocket because we have come along to this hearing.
PN2374
And that's if the school wouldn't pay you, I take it. That's if the school didn't pay you?---That's correct. We had been told we had to take leave without pay. To me, that was also affirmation that our colleagues were behind us.
PN2375
Could you look at document 102, please. What is document 102, please?---Well, this is the result of that meeting. That's actually my handwriting at the top, "We, the undersigned - - -"
PN2376
So you've written, "We, the undersigned, support the action of the union in the meals dispute against St Peter's College, 15 August 2014"?---Yes. I wrote that because the same wording was used at that meeting, for those who were present at the meeting, that wanted to sign.
PN2377
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XN MR ABBOTT
Yes?---So there is another one.
PN2378
There's another one?---Yes.
PN2379
And this is one that you prepared - - -?---Yes.
PN2380
- - - for those that weren't at the meeting?---That's right. They weren't at the meeting and they're junior school teachers, all of those.
PN2381
Do you recognise, without going through the names - are all the names on that sheet, staff members?---Yes.
PN2382
Of one sort or another?---Yes, that's correct.
PN2383
I think since then you've been approached by one further staff member - - -?
---Yes.
PN2384
- - - who hasn't signed this, but has indicated that they wanted to sign this document?---Yes.
PN2385
And that is?---Her name is Kathy Simpson.
PN2386
I apply to tender the document at 102.
PN2387
MR WELLS: We are aware, of course, of the comments that she made earlier, Commissioner, about this particular topic. You will understand our position is that although of course it may be regarded as interesting, it's not obviously the whole story; but, more importantly, it's not actually an area or circumstance that relates to the nature of the dispute that is before you. It won't surprise you to know that we object to the tender of it as not being relevant to the inquiry.
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XN MR ABBOTT
PN2388
We perfectly understand why the witness would have collected the signatures; we understand the story. Our concern, apart from anything else, is that if we're not careful, this dispute is going to branch off into an examination of the nature of the support, what lies behind such support as there might be, those who don't support it and, more importantly from present purposes, the whole issue of applying for leave to give evidence without pay, of course understanding that we're talking about the teaching profession and the nature of leave arrangements for teachers. That, in our respectful submission, is simply a completely collateral and unhelpful inquiry.
PN2389
On that basis and consistently with that, we would respectfully submit that this material and indeed much of this evidence is of no relevance to the inquiry. That remains our position with respect to that. It's our position with respect to the evidence that has been called without notice of these topics, and any other documents that relate to that, receive the same position from us.
PN2390
THE COMMISSIONER: Do you have any response, Mr Abbott?
PN2391
MR ABBOTT: Well, I'm not sure that I need to make a response, but we rely upon it from the dispute resolution provisions of the enterprise agreement 2012, particularly 14.1(iii) which says that if the dispute relates to an industrial matter, which is defined as a matter affecting or relating to the rights of any employee -
PN2392
including all questions of what is right and fair in relation to an industrial matter having regard to the interests of the persons immediately concerned and of society as a whole, this clause sets out procedures to settle the dispute.
PN2393
In our submission, at the very worst for us if this is not a contractual right or it's not a right that's caught otherwise, then it's a right that is caught by 14.1(iii). Furthermore, as I'm reminded, part of their submissions are there are only 15 disgruntled employees who are raising this.
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XN MR ABBOTT
PN2394
MR WELLS: No, that's not our submission.
PN2395
MR ABBOTT: Can I make my submissions, please, free from interruptions? I've had to put up with this constantly. Now, if I can be allowed to finish my submissions - - -
PN2396
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wells, we will give you due time. Thank you.
PN2397
MR ABBOTT: In paragraph 36 of their outline:
PN2398
Only 15 of over 250 employees have chosen to be involved in these proceedings. No staff members has cited his withdrawal of the lunch benefit as a reason for leaving the employment -
PN2399
et cetera. They say:
PN2400
The removal of staff lunches is not viewed as a significant issue by the majority of the respondent's staff.
PN2401
We say for various reasons on any view, but at worst for us, this is an industrial matter and this answer is appropriate and the evidence should be given, if it please the commission.
PN2402
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wells?
PN2403
MR WELLS: The only reason why I raised there was because what was put didn't represent our position. It's not useful to put an argument on a premise which is incorrect. Our consistent position has been there are 15 applicants. We haven't talked at all about gruntled or disgruntled. There are 15 applicants before you represented by the union. That's our only point. I don't want to take, Commissioner, your time up now.
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XN MR ABBOTT
PN2404
We dispute what my learned friend says about clause 14. This evidence goes to, at best, a summary of reactions to the decision which no doubt identifies the existence of a dispute, but what is being contended for is that the withdrawal of the lunches as provided by the school - what is being said about that is that that became an unfair industrial matter because of, it was said, the lack of process that applied to it.
PN2405
We hear, as we go along, my friend adding to or modifying what is said to be the case and at the moment we still don't quite know what the case is on unfairness in that respect; but it can't be an unfairness, if you like, which is pointing to conduct and circumstances that occur afterwards. The question is the dispute arises out of the notice that was given - a terms notice that was given that lunches would no longer be provided by the school free of charge. There may have been all sorts of reactions to that, but that's not what the dispute is, the reactions. The existence of either disappointment or any other emotion of it may well be consequences of the act which gives rise to the dispute, but it isn't the dispute itself. In that respect, it doesn't constitute a matter that falls for your consideration.
PN2406
I understand from what you've said that you still want to hear a little about those circumstances, but we do need, nevertheless, to make the point that in our respectful submission it doesn't fall within what is here to be considered and clause 14 doesn't make it so. We can develop that if we need to.
PN2407
THE COMMISSIONER: I accept that you have an argument in that respect. We are only at the preliminary stage of the argument, in my view.
PN2408
MR WELLS: Yes.
PN2409
THE COMMISSIONER: I'm going to accept the document as an exhibit because the process - I'll give it due weight in my decision and your objection is noted. Mr Abbott, the document shall be - this is tab 102 - A32.
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XN MR ABBOTT
PN2410
MR ABBOTT: Thank you, Commissioner.
EXHIBIT #A32 DOCUMENT CONTAINING STAFF NAMES AND SIGNATURES DATED 15/08/2014
MR ABBOTT: I have no further questions for Ms DiMonte.
PN2412
THE COMMISSIONER: Ms DiMonte, Mr Wells is going to ask you some questions now.
PN2413
MR WELLS: Pardon me for a moment, Commissioner. I wonder if I could just have a brief moment at the bar table to look at the document that was MFI A27.
PN2414
THE COMMISSIONER: Certainly.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WELLS [11.25AM]
MR WELLS: Ms DiMonte, could I ask you, if you would, to turn to the - I hope it's the volume that's in front of you which has your letters; the letters that you referred to. It's at tab 38, I think. I'm looking, first of all, at the first letter of 17 March 2003, which is now A24. As my learned friend quite properly identified, this is a letter of offer to you for the teaching position?---That's correct.
PN2416
You will see on page 2, at the top of the page, the sentence, "Please forward in writing at your earliest convenience your agreement with the substance of this letter." You see that?---Yes.
PN2417
And that's what you did when you wrote the letter which follows in that tab, of 19 March 2003?---Yes.
PN2418
When in that letter you say in the first paragraph, "I accept your offer and agree to all the accompanying conditions and commitments," you're referring back to the first letter?---Yes, that's correct.
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XXN MR WELLS
PN2419
Have you been a junior schoolteacher since that time?---At St Peter's or anywhere?
PN2420
Yes?---At St Peter's?
PN2421
Since 2003?---Yes, I have.
PN2422
Teaching in Palm House throughout that time?---Yes, always.
PN2423
That is the junior primary section of the school?---That's right, yes.
PN2424
Do I take it that you kept the letter of offer of 17 March 2003 in your own personal papers?---I haven't been able to put my hands on it. I'm not sure where mine is. I know I have it somewhere. I wouldn't have thrown it out, but I haven't - this is the first time I've seen it for a long time.
PN2425
I see. I take it, therefore, also the responding letter?---That's correct.
PN2426
I may not have caught that. You think you must have it, but you haven't either been able to find it or haven't looked for it?---I did look for it. I haven't been able to find it.
PN2427
Did you look for it at the time you provided your statement to Mr Ats?---Around that time, yes, I did look to see if it was - if lunches were mentioned.
PN2428
Can you - I think it's in the same volume - turn to tab 78. It's a different volume, I beg your pardon. It's the other volume.
That's now exhibit A28, the attachment of 4 May 2012 which you received as an attachment to an email, I understand?
---Yes.
PN2429
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XXN MR WELLS
On the second page and following, there appears to be a table or schedule which is headed "School's final offer in response to the staff log of claims"?---Yes, I can see that.
PN2430
Did you understand that table to indicate on the left-hand column the staff log of claims and on the right-hand column, with respect to the items mentioned, the school's response as a final offer?---Yes, I do understand that that is how it reads.
PN2431
At the time you read it - you probably can't recall, but - - -?---No, I don't recall my response at the time.
PN2432
Looking at it now, that's how you would read it. Perhaps we can take an example, just to test it out. If you go to the second page of the table, third page of the document, at the top you've got "Superannuation". You have that?---Yes.
PN2433
On the left-hand column - I won't read it all - - -?---Right, yes.
PN2434
It starts, "The school to contribute extra superannuation," as there set out?---Yes.
PN2435
And then on the right-hand side, alongside that, is, "The school does not agree to this position. However," and so forth. Do you see that?---Yes.
PN2436
Just taking one more, the next one, "Remission of fees for children of staff," you'll see there, "Remission of 50 per cent tuition fees will apply"?---Yes.
PN2437
That being the claim, and then the response is the one that appears next to it in the right-hand column?---Yes.
PN2438
Do you presently understand that that's what that table represents; the log of claim and the school's final response to it?---Yes, I do.
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XXN MR WELLS
PN2439
In all probability, you understood it in that way at the time you received the document?---Yes.
PN2440
Thank you, Commissioner.
PN2441
THE COMMISSIONER: Anything further, Mr Abbott?
PN2442
MR ABBOTT: No. I ask for the release of this witness.
PN2443
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Ms DiMonte. You are released?---Thank you, Commissioner.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.31AM]
MR ABBOTT: We have just found another document which we'd like to put to this next witness. I'd like a very brief opportunity of putting it to Ms Van Rensburg. I'll get my instructor to speak to Ms Van Rensburg outside the hearing room, just to make sure she can identify this document and what it is. We think it's one of hers.
PN2445
THE COMMISSIONER: Do we then need to have it copied.
PN2446
MR ABBOTT: Yes, we will, because we haven't got any copies of it. We'll need to provide it, of course, to my learned friend.
PN2447
THE COMMISSIONER: I'll stay here, Mr Abbott, while you confer with your witness.
PN2448
MR ABBOTT: Yes.
PN2449
DISCUSSION RE DOCUMENTS
PN2450
MR ABBOTT: Commissioner, we're going to need five or 10 minutes. I need to speak to her about this document. I want to get a date for it. She brought in a folder of documents this morning, because this is - we have asked for her documents before, but she has brought in other documents this morning and I haven't seen this document. I need to look at it.
PN2451
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Abbott, as I said to both parties, I'm very permissive when it comes to evidence as long as I get the best evidence outcome.
PN2452
MR ABBOTT: You will, sir. You will.
PN2453
THE COMMISSIONER: You need five minutes?
PN2454
MR ABBOTT: Yes, five or 10 minutes.
PN2455
THE COMMISSIONER: We'll adjourn.
<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.35AM]
<RESUMED [11.56AM]
PN2456
MR ABBOTT: Commissioner, the next witness is Ms Annette Van Rensburg. Ms Van Rensburg has brought with her this morning documents that we regard as important to her evidence. We have received from her this morning her notes of four enterprise bargaining meetings and the consultative committee meeting of 3 December 2013. The four meetings are 29 July 2008; 23 September 2008; 23 February 2012; 22 March 2012. We don't have copies of those.
PN2457
With your indulgence, I propose to take her through her evidence. I'm sure Mr Wells will then need time - but at least we'll be close to the lunch hour then, Commissioner, hopefully, and time to have them photocopied and it will give Mr Wells time to look through them. I apologise for the late production of this material, but I think it better we hear the witness's evidence-in-chief, subject to your directions. At least we'll get on with it and we can see where we go from there.
**** WENDY GAYE DIMONTE XXN MR WELLS
PN2458
THE COMMISSIONER: So Mr Wells will have no documents in front of him as we go through?
PN2459
MR ABBOTT: Not copies of these documents, no. Not copies of her notes relating to these meetings.
PN2460
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wells?
PN2461
MR WELLS: To put it mildly, it's less than desirable. I'm prepared to accede to what my friend says. I think we can get as far as we can. My only concern of course is, because I don't have them in front of me, I'm not able, as it were, to follow closely the nature of the questions that my learned friend is going to put in that respect and make an assessment about whether they're questions that properly relate to the notes. I'm not anxious for there to be any more delay than there is, but I suppose I have to point to at least that disadvantage in - - -
PN2462
THE COMMISSIONER: I've recognised that disadvantage. That's why I've raised it myself.
PN2463
MR WELLS: Yes.
PN2464
THE COMMISSIONER: With your indulgence, we'll proceed with the witness.
PN2465
MR WELLS: Thank you.
<ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG, SWORN [11.58AM]
THE ASSOCIATE: Please state your full name?---Annette Van Rensburg.
PN2467
Your address?---(address supplied).
PN2468
Your occupation?---I'm an audio-visual and library technician at St Peter's College.
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR ABBOTT [11.59AM]
MR ABBOTT: Ms Van Rensburg, could you look at this document, please, which is your statement with an annexure to it. You'll see that it actually consists of - I think it has got 10 numbered pages. Has your copy got page numbers 1 to 10 or not?---No.
PN2470
I think there are 10 pages, including the notes?---10, yes.
PN2471
If you look at page number 5, you'll see your signature, I think?---Yes.
PN2472
Can you confirm that this is the statement - portion of the evidence you wish to give and you've included in this your notes of the enterprise bargaining meeting of 23 September 2011. Is that correct?---The statement is mine. The notes, I don't think are mine. They're not in my handwriting.
PN2473
At this stage I don't apply to tender - could you take the notes out?---Yes.
PN2474
We'll just tender your statement of five pages.
PN2475
THE COMMISSIONER: We're tendering the statement, are we?
PN2476
MR ABBOTT: Yes.
PN2477
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wells?
PN2478
MR WELLS: No objection.
PN2479
THE COMMISSIONER: It will be A33.
EXHIBIT #A33 STATEMENT OF MS VAN RENSBURG
MR ABBOTT: You say in your statement that you first started working in 2006 as a full-time permanent employee and that prior to
your employment being completed, you were first interviewed by Ms Leigh Clarke, who is the librarian?
---That's correct.
PN2481
Could you tell us about the relationship between the interview with Ms Clarke and what you've described as the second interview with the headmaster. What was the period of time between the first meeting with Ms Clarke and then the meeting with the headmaster?---I don't remember exactly how much time was between the two. I would think probably about a week. The first interview was my first interview for the job itself. The second interview with the headmaster was to offer me the position. The timing, I can't remember exactly.
PN2482
Ms Clarke took you on a tour of the grounds, as you say in paragraph 5?---Yes.
PN2483
And you mention in paragraph 6 what happened during part of the tour. Could you, please, tell us as best you can recall what she said on the topic of meals?---I was taken around a tour of the school and the library happens to be opposite the dining room, so on the way to the library we walked past the dining room, which is called Da Costa dining hall, and Ms Clarke said, "And this is the Da Costa dining hall where you will have meals, and the meals are included in your employment should that go ahead."
PN2484
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
I think that was the end of the discussion on the topic of meals?---That's correct.
PN2485
As you say in your second interview with the headmaster - that was Mr Grutzner, was it?---That's right. Philip Grutzner.
PN2486
Yes. Again, you don't think he mentioned the provision of meals in the course of the formal interview?---I don't remember that he did, no.
PN2487
You then received a letter offering you a position?---That's right.
PN2488
Would you look at the book of documents which we have; tab 47?---Thank you. Yes.
PN2489
Would you confirm for us, please, that that's the letter of offer - - -?---Yes, that is.
PN2490
- - - of a permanent position?---Yes.
PN2491
And you've signed your acceptance?---Yes, that's correct.
PN2492
I tender those three pages behind tab 47.
PN2493
THE COMMISSIONER: That will be A34.
EXHIBIT #A34 LETTER OF OFFER TO MS VAN RENSBURG
MR ABBOTT: You say in paragraph 8 that it never occurred to you that you'd have to pay for meals. This was an understanding you gained from the interviews?---Yes.
PN2495
What interviews are you talking about?---I'm talking about the conversation - the interview that I had with Ms Clarke.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2496
Yes?---And while we were having the tour around the school. Also in my past experience, as I said there, when I was a boarder it was certainly practice for staff to have their meals with the students. In my experience, it didn't occur to me that this was in any way out of the ordinary or that there is anything particularly unusual about it.
PN2497
You had been a boarder at a school and, as a boarder, you received meals as part of the payment of the boarder's fees, but at that
school the teachers on a rotational basis attended and had staff meals for which they didn't pay. Is that the situation?
---That's correct.
PN2498
You go on to say, in paragraph 11, that shortly after you recall a written directive, the contents of which required staff to have their meals in the dining room?---Yes.
PN2499
What form was that written directive in?---To my recollection, it was an email sent to staff. It happened fairly soon after I started working there, so I remember it really clearly.
PN2500
And why do you remember it very clearly?---Well, I remember soon after - one tends to remember a lot of things when you start working at a place. I remember an email coming out to staff saying - a directive to staff to have all their meals in the Da Costa dining hall. Some staff were not doing that at that time and were going off and having them in different locations. I remember thinking at the time that it was interesting that people would have to be directed to have their meals - it was in the spirit of collegiality and to have everyone - have a cohesive staff. That was Mr Grutzner that sent the message.
PN2501
This was soon after you started in July 2006 or August? Early August?---That's correct. I reckon it was a few months after that. I think it could have been towards the end of 2006 that happened.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2502
I call for the school copy of the written directive.
PN2503
MR WELLS: We don't have it.
PN2504
MR ABBOTT: Have you still retained that email?---I haven't, unfortunately, no. I was told to delete most of my emails because it was taking up too much space on the school server.
PN2505
What, staff are told by the - - -?---No, the IT staff send to particular people - especially because I'm the audio-visual technician, I often take up a lot of space on the server because I have a lot of attachments that are video or photo. They would give us an instruction to delete everything up to a certain point to make space on the server, so my emails only go back to, I think, about 2011 because of that.
PN2506
THE COMMISSIONER: You're calling for it, Mr Abbott?
PN2507
MR ABBOTT: Yes, I am calling for it. It will still be on the server - I'll ask a question.
PN2508
You know something about the IT situation at St Peter's College?---Mm.
PN2509
Would this email, in your opinion, still be on the server at St Peter's College?
---I'm sure it would. Surely they would have to back up everything.
PN2510
If they backed up in 2006, it would be in the back-up?---If it was backed up, it would be on a tape somewhere, I would guess. That would be my guess, yes.
PN2511
I ask that the school make all inquiries for this important document which we don't have, but is presumably within the power of the school to obtain from their back-up tapes for late 2006 on their server.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2512
MR WELLS: I'll make inquiries.
PN2513
THE COMMISSIONER: Could you make inquiries whether it still exists?
PN2514
MR WELLS: Yes.
PN2515
THE COMMISSIONER: I understand it's depending on the technology situation in the school.
PN2516
MR WELLS: Yes. We'll make an inquiry.
PN2517
MR ABBOTT: I now want to deal with the enterprise bargaining section.
PN2518
THE COMMISSIONER: Before you proceed, Mr Abbott, could I just ask, through you, your witness a question of - - -
PN2519
MR ABBOTT: Certainly.
PN2520
THE COMMISSIONER: The evidence is there was a directive for all staff to have the meals in Da Costa. Did that include the junior school and the ground staff?---To my recollection, the email was sent to all staff. I don't recall the precise, exact wording of the email, so I can't remember that.
PN2521
MR ABBOTT: And to the best of your belief, it came from the headmaster?---I think so, yes. Yes.
PN2522
And the headmaster was?---It would have been either from him or his PA, but it would have been signed by him. That was Philip Grutzner.
PN2523
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
Do you know who his PA was?---At that time - good question. I think it was Anthea Pix.
PN2524
Anthea - - -?---Anthea Pix.
PN2525
Pix?---P-i-x.
PN2526
Well, that will help the school in their search?---Yes.
PN2527
Thank you. I now want to deal with enterprise bargaining. In what capacity did you participate in negotiations for enterprise bargaining?---The first set of bargaining that I was involved in, I was the IEU representative for support staff - in both rounds actually.
PN2528
Yes?---So the 2008-2009 and the later on.
PN2529
You mention in paragraph 13 that you attended a series of meetings. This is in relation to the 2008 period of negotiations, is it?---Yes.
PN2530
When you say in paragraph 14, "Throughout that negotiation," you're talking about the negotiation in what year?---That was 2008-2009.
PN2531
And when you say, "The negotiation management conveyed an overarching theme of how lucky we were to be working at St Peter's and the provision of meals as part of the job was very often raised as an example of why you were lucky to be working at St Peter's," could you tell us who said it, if you can remember, or whether more than one said it and give us, if you can, some examples of how it was put?---Okay. That was Philip Grutzner. As I said, in this - and remembering it was a long time ago - set of negotiations, it was often brought up. The overarching theme of our discussions was we are lucky to be working at St Peter's. We should be conceding on some of our claims because we are provided with many benefits as part of our employment, including meals, and I think parking was mentioned and a range of different things.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2532
THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, we haven't got to who said such - - -
PN2533
MR ABBOTT: Yes?---In my recollection, it was the headmaster.
PN2534
THE COMMISSIONER: The headmaster, Grutzner?---Grutzner, yes.
PN2535
MR ABBOTT: You say in paragraph 15 - well, I won't read it out, but in relation to what you say in paragraph 15, you use the words, "It is clear from what management were saying that they saw a clear trade-off." Could you tell us how that was put to you, please?---Well, we were negotiating - this was at the stage of the negotiations where we had already put our claims in and the school had counter-offered with the offer, which was much lower than we wanted in terms of salary increases especially. In the process of discussing why they offered what they were offering and in our discussions as to why we thought it was inadequate, it came up during those discussions that we should regard what we get as part of our employment at St Peter's College as something that has a money value and that is part of our employment and therefore should be seen as a trade-off, as I said, between what we were asking in terms of a salary raise and what the school was offering. So when we were comparing those offers and the salaries to other schools, and especially to like schools, we were reminded that we shouldn't forget that we get a range of benefits as part of our employment, including meals, which are not actually specifically stated.
PN2536
We have one of the meetings that you attended in our book of documents. If you look at document 50 - - -?---Yes.
PN2537
These are Mr Smyth's notes of an EBA negotiation meeting?---Yes.
PN2538
We don't have the final copy of those minutes of that meeting, but were final copies produced by the school of the EB meetings in that year?---Of the minutes? Yes, I think so.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2539
Yes?---Look, it was too long ago for me to remember. That was the pattern, but I don't think I have a copy of that either.
PN2540
But we do have some of the other ones from earlier in the year?---Yes.
PN2541
First of all, I make a call for all the minutes of enterprise bargaining meetings prepared by the school in 2008 and 2009.
PN2542
THE COMMISSIONER: If they exist.
PN2543
MR ABBOTT: Yes, well, they exist. We've got some of them here.
PN2544
THE COMMISSIONER: From what source?
PN2545
MR ABBOTT: This witness has produced two of them, sir.
PN2546
THE COMMISSIONER: You're calling - - -
PN2547
MR ABBOTT: I'm calling on them to produce their copies.
PN2548
THE COMMISSIONER: You want the school to produce them?
PN2549
MR ABBOTT: Yes, the school to produce them, as well.
PN2550
THE COMMISSIONER: If they exist.
PN2551
MR ABBOTT: Because we don't have the November 2008. We've only got Mr Smyth's notes of it.
PN2552
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
MR WELLS: I don't know how much longer we have to keep dealing with this, Commissioner. We've dealt with a whole packet of these as an application before the hearing commenced, which were of an extensive nature. We have not heard any request of any kind up until the very moment that there are other documents of this character or volume that are being required. In our respectful submission, this shouldn't be allowed to continue. This is just building a case on the trip as they go and at the moment we're not even sure if we understand what case it is that we are having to meet here.
PN2553
You will understand from what I've said before - and I won't go over it, but I'm happy to make the fuller submissions - that we regard the course of negotiations and the discussions in relation to previous EBs as irrelevant to the issues that arise in this dispute. My friend puts us at a call. That's using language which is not appropriate to this jurisdiction. The question is always going to be what material do you require, Commissioner, to be informed about in order to decide the dispute.
PN2554
Our submission is you don't require to be informed about any of this material and there is nothing in the case that we came here to meet which suggests for one moment that we should be gathering that kind of documentation together and having it ready to produce. Here we are on day three being asked about it for the first time. There has to be some way in which we can have an end to the material that we're dealing with so that we can focus on the material and have a hearing which finishes. This is just expanding as we go with the nature of the case, that my friend is seeking to modify and adjust as he goes. Well, there has to be an end somewhere.
PN2555
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wells, this witness is saying that your clients used the meals as a bargaining tool repeatedly in the years prior to the decision to withdraw the meals.
PN2556
MR WELLS: Yes, I believe that is what she is saying.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2557
THE COMMISSIONER: I think that is relevant in terms of the assertions made by the 15 employees that Mr Abbott is representing.
PN2558
MR WELLS: We understand perfectly well that from the point of view of the applicant, they regard it as relevant. That's why my friend is spending so much time going over all of these. We understand that. In that sense, they're relevant to the issue that my friend wants to raise. Our point is they're not relevant to the dispute. They're not relevant to the issues that you are being asked to determine. The result is that we're being asked to go off now late in the day, day three, find documents of this kind, bring them back, in relation to an issue which our contention is doesn't arise for your determination.
PN2559
THE COMMISSIONER: That may be a contention. It's my recollection this wouldn't be the first time this concept has arisen in regard to your client.
PN2560
MR WELLS: This wouldn't be the first time - - -
PN2561
THE COMMISSIONER: There is a claim to meals by these applicants because of a history at the college, including enterprise bargaining.
PN2562
MR WELLS: Yes.
PN2563
MR ABBOTT: You've known for five months.
PN2564
THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, Mr Abbott, let's - - -
PN2565
MR WELLS: The point is that we're obviously going to end up having to have an argument in due course about where this is supposed to fit in and why it has anything to do with it. Our point is that from where we stand, this has never been a relevant inquiry and now on day three the applicants are actually saying, "Well, we want these documents." There's no reason why we should have produced them. "We want these documents," they say, and the question for you is whether on day three you consider that the time should be taken for us to go and find these documents, which involve the necessary steps, first of all, of seeing how much of it we have and where it is and collating it, putting it together, and then taking instructions from our clients about them.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2566
It has a whole heap of consequences which bear upon the nature of this inquiry and the way, as I say, in which it is taking a course now which was not the course on which the applicants set themselves when they started.
PN2567
THE COMMISSIONER: I understand your frustration. However, I am going to accept Mr Abbott's call, as he puts it, for these documents. I'm seeking you make inquiries whether they exist.
PN2568
MR WELLS: We will do that.
PN2569
THE COMMISSIONER: If they do exist, I'd like them produced.
PN2570
MR WELLS: We will do that.
PN2571
THE COMMISSIONER: What I make of them, I'll deal with again in terms of weighing this matter. Also in terms of the outline of argument, there is an assertion that there are existing benefits that should have been maintained by the employer and there is also the wider ambit of whether this is industrially unfair to withdraw any benefits generally.
PN2572
MR WELLS: Yes, I perfectly well understand the latter of those and I've already pointed out that, as far as we have understood, the nature of that claim is a process complaint. No doubt someone will tell us when what has appeared in the outline changes in that respect.
PN2573
MR ABBOTT: I said that yesterday.
PN2574
MR WELLS: Well, no doubt you will amend your documents. I take it now is not the time to be having that particular argument. I hear what you say, Commissioner. We'll make the inquiry. We'll see what we can gather together, but there is still a question about what use is going to be made.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2575
THE COMMISSIONER: I agree, Mr Wells, and I'm going to be very attentive to the final submissions and summations of these arguments, I can promise you.
PN2576
MR WELLS: Thank you.
PN2577
MR ABBOTT: Commissioner, may I very briefly respond to what my learned friend has said?
PN2578
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Abbott, I don't think we should have these submissions now.
PN2579
MR ABBOTT: Only to say, Commissioner, that everything my learned friend - proceeds on this basis: that they regard their argument as being the only maintainable argument and to suggest, as my learned friend is inferentially suggesting, that they haven't bothered to prepare to counter our argument by looking at documents that might impinge on our argument, does a disservice to Mr Wells and to his team; because I'm sure that not only have they come to these proceedings with their position, but they've also come to the proceeding on the basis to counteract our position, as well.
PN2580
Like any experienced counsellor - Mr Wells is one of the most experienced counsel - it beggars belief that they haven't proceeded in that way, as well, with a two-pronged defence, not just, "We've got our position and we're maintaining it." Anyway, I'll make my submissions in due course on that aspect.
PN2581
THE COMMISSIONER: Gentlemen, I do have to say - I've only been around here for about 10 or 11 years in terms of these matters - this is becoming a fairly frustrated process for an Industrial Commission or Fair Work Commission matter. I'm seeking your assistance. Let's cut through it. These arguments about the application and the evidence is becoming a bit frustrating to me.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2582
MR ABBOTT: Yes, and to me.
PN2583
THE COMMISSIONER: We know why we are here.
PN2584
MR ABBOTT: Yes.
PN2585
THE COMMISSIONER: I'm not bound by the Rules of Evidence.
PN2586
MR ABBOTT: No.
PN2587
THE COMMISSIONER: If I see in the way forward it's going to be a further restriction to me, I may have to put some bounds on it.
PN2588
MR ABBOTT: Yes.
PN2589
THE COMMISSIONER: But at the moment, Mr Abbott, the approach by your client in this case in terms of putting documents up late, et cetera, and proving them in different ways, has added to the frustration of the process.
PN2590
MR ABBOTT: I agree.
PN2591
THE COMMISSIONER: And Mr Wells has a right to object. He has made it quite clear he will object when he wants to and I've reserved various positions in that respect.
PN2592
MR ABBOTT: Yes.
PN2593
THE COMMISSIONER: But let's see if we can focus on the expeditious aspect of these matters. I understand you've got a right to put your case as you see it, but we do have to focus on this matter ending eventually in terms of full summation.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2594
MR ABBOTT: I agree. Ms Van Rensburg's statement is five months ago and I'm now dealing with page 3 of it where she deals with the events of 2008 negotiating the previous agreement.
PN2595
Would you look at this document, please, which is dated 29 July 2008. Just have a look at that document?---Yes.
PN2596
Is that a document you produced to us this morning?---Yes.
PN2597
What is it?---This is the minutes of an enterprise bargaining meeting of 29 July 2008.
PN2598
And present at that meeting?---That was Philip Grutzner, the headmaster; Annette Cinnamond; Jason Haseldine; Greg Elliott; Chris Smyth; myself; Julie Lundberg, from the IEU; Patrick Duckworth, who was the minute-taker and the school chaplain.
PN2599
In relation to paragraphs 13 to 17 of your statement - - -?---Yes.
PN2600
- - - where you talk about negotiating the previous agreement and, in paragraph 13, you talk about attending a series of meetings?---Yes.
PN2601
Was that one of them?---Yes.
PN2602
I tender those minutes - or apply to have them marked for identification at this stage.
PN2603
THE COMMISSIONER: We'll mark them at this stage, for Mr Wells' consideration. That will be A35, marked for identification.
MFI #A35 MINUTES OF ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 29/07/2008
PN2604
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
MR ABBOTT: Would you now look at this document. What is that document?
---Right. This is the agenda for the enterprise bargaining meeting for 23 September 2008. On the back of these documents, I've made
some notes of my own.
PN2605
And again is that another of what you've referred to as a series of meetings - - -?
---That's correct, yes.
PN2606
- - - in paragraph 13, and the comments that you refer to in paragraphs 14 to 17 were made?---Yes.
PN2607
I ask that that be marked for identification, together with the witness's notes.
PN2608
THE COMMISSIONER: The notes are on the back, aren't they?
PN2609
MR ABBOTT: The notes are attached to it.
PN2610
THE COMMISSIONER: Attached, okay. That will be A36 for identification.
MFI #A36 AGENDA FOR ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 23/09/2008 PLUS ATTACHED NOTES
MR ABBOTT: I now move to your section of your statement in which you talk about negotiating the current agreement?---Yes.
PN2612
And that is the enterprise agreement dated 21 December 2012, which is before us which covers all staff members?---That's correct.
PN2613
You're familiar with that document?---Yes.
PN2614
You took part in the negotiations?---That's right.
PN2615
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
At paragraph 19 of your statement - - -?---Yes.
PN2616
- - - you speak of a meeting in the Oval House boardroom. That's a reference to the school building, is it?---That's correct. The Oval House is where the reception area is, but there's also a boardroom in that building where we had many of these meetings. Most of them, actually.
PN2617
And the Mr Murray you mention in paragraphs 20 and 21 is the headmaster? Mr Simon Murray, who is present in this room today?---That's correct, yes.
PN2618
You say at 23 that a copy of the notes you took in the 2011 negotiations are marked ABR1. I think that's incorrect, because they are not your notes?---That's right, yes. No, these aren't mine.
PN2619
They're someone else's?---Yes.
PN2620
And you wish to correct that mistake?---Yes, please.
PN2621
However, you do have some notes of the enterprise bargaining meetings?---I do, yes.
PN2622
Which you've produced today?---Yes.
PN2623
Would you look at this document, which I think is the document that should have been, in paragraph 23, marked ABR1. Are these the notes of the enterprise bargaining negotiating meeting of Friday, 23 September 2011? The agenda, plus your notes of that meeting?---That's correct. This is the agenda of 23 September.
PN2624
On page 1, yes, and some of your notes are on that page?---And some of my notes on this page, yes. I have a habit of making my notes on the agenda, so I know they match up.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2625
Right?---And a document that was produced obviously with that meeting, yes. There's also a copy of - - -
PN2626
The minutes?--- - - - the minutes, yes.
PN2627
So together that represents the documents in your possession that relate to the November 2011 - - -?---No, September.
PN2628
Sorry, September 2011?---That's correct, yes.
PN2629
Is that possibly the meeting at which what you record as having been said by Mr Murray was said, or can't you tell us?---Let me just have a quick look through this.
PN2630
Yes?---I can't really say from my notes here whether that was the same meeting.
PN2631
We do have an earlier one?---Yes.
PN2632
Could that be marked for identification, as well, Commissioner?
PN2633
THE COMMISSIONER: It will be A37, marked for identification.
MFI #A37 AGENDA AND MINUTES OF ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 23/09/2011 PLUS NOTES
MR ABBOTT: There is a book of documents before you?---Yes.
PN2635
Would you look at meeting number 2, which was 10 August 2011. It's behind tab 59?---10 August 2011, yes.
PN2636
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
Yes. You'll see that's the second meeting at which the log of claims was presented?---Yes.
PN2637
I don't know whether that jogs your memory either, but you recall attending that meeting?---I do, yes.
PN2638
I apply to tender the minutes of that meeting and the log of claims.
PN2639
THE COMMISSIONER: Where is the log of claims, Mr Abbott?
PN2640
MR ABBOTT: Yes, there's a log of claims, which is the next tab.
PN2641
THE COMMISSIONER: Attachment 60?
PN2642
MR ABBOTT: Sorry, it's behind the minutes of the meeting.
PN2643
THE COMMISSIONER: I have a two-page document at tab 59.
PN2644
MR ABBOTT: Behind the next tab.
PN2645
THE COMMISSIONER: So tab 60, as well, as you're saying?
PN2646
MR ABBOTT: Yes. It needs to be brought forward.
PN2647
MR WELLS: Well, actually it's different in our volume.
PN2648
MR ABBOTT: I think it has been mis-filed. It needs to be brought forward from tab 60 and put behind tab 59.
PN2649
THE COMMISSIONER: How is it with you, Mr Wells? Is it one document?
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2650
MR WELLS: It's all one document.
PN2651
THE COMMISSIONER: Okay.
PN2652
MR ABBOTT: So it's only in the Commissioner's copy then.
PN2653
MR WELLS: That's how it's exhibited to Ms Cinnamond's witness statement.
PN2654
THE COMMISSIONER: We'll make that A38, marked for identification.
PN2655
MR ABBOTT: That can be an exhibit. That comes from - - -
PN2656
MR WELLS: I don't mind that going in.
PN2657
THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. A38, it is.
EXHIBIT #A38 MINUTES OF ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 10/08/2011 PLUS LOG OF CLAIMS
THE WITNESS: Can I ask for clarification on - the question was do - - -
PN2659
MR ABBOTT: We tried to identify, if possible - - -?---Yes.
PN2660
And it's slightly on the run, because I know that you only brought these documents in this morning?---Yes.
PN2661
What meeting it was in relation to the negotiations for the current enterprise agreement at which Mr Murray said to Mr Humphreys - - -?---Yes.
PN2662
- - - "Staff need to remember that things like meals you all enjoy can very easily be taken away"?---I don't think - it wasn't the August meeting, no.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2663
Right, okay?---It was later on - a little bit later on. It was after the first log of claims had been put forward. We'd had a response to that.
PN2664
Yes?---And I reckon it must have been November, probably, that that came up; because there was some frustration about not seeing eye-to-eye about what was being offered and what we would accept as a staff. I'm sure it wasn't at this meeting that those claims were made.
PN2665
We've dealt with meeting number 2?---Yes.
PN2666
Meeting number 3 is behind tab 63. Can you confirm that this contains the school response, if you go to tab 63?---I'm running out of tabs. I've only got up to 59. All right. 23 September 2011, yes.
PN2667
You're recorded as being at that meeting. Can you remember being at this - - -?
---Yes.
PN2668
- - - EB negotiating meeting number 3?---Most certainly, yes.
PN2669
And you will see that the school's response is attachment A?---Yes.
PN2670
I apply to tender this document behind tab 63.
PN2671
MR WELLS: Since we had it, we haven't checked it against Ms Cinnamond's exhibit of the same minute, but assuming they're the same, we don't object to it being marked as an exhibit; but we'd just want to reserve the opportunity to do that.
PN2672
MR ABBOTT: I'm happy for that to be marked as an exhibit, subject to their right to challenge - - -
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2673
THE COMMISSIONER: A39, to be checked.
EXHIBIT #A39 MINUTES OF ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 23/09/2011
MR ABBOTT: Go to the next tab, 64. You were present at this meeting?
---That's correct, yes.
PN2675
This is number 4. I tender the minutes of that meeting.
PN2676
MR WELLS: Can we identify the date?
PN2677
MR ABBOTT: Yes, it's the staff enterprise bargaining negotiation meeting number 4, 2 November 2011.
PN2678
MR WELLS: With the same reservation.
PN2679
THE COMMISSIONER: A40, to be checked.
EXHIBIT #A40 MINUTES OF ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 02/11/2011
MR ABBOTT: Tab 65, meeting number 5, dated 16 November 2011?---Yes.
PN2681
You were at that meeting?---I was present at that meeting, yes.
PN2682
I tender the minutes of that meeting.
PN2683
MR WELLS: The same response.
PN2684
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wells, thank you. A41, to be checked.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
EXHIBIT #A41 MINUTES OF ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 16/11/2011
MR ABBOTT: Could you go to the next tab, 67. That's the minutes of the meeting number 6 of 30 November 2011?---And I was present at that meeting, as well, yes.
PN2686
Yes. I tender the minutes of that meeting of 30 November 2011.
PN2687
MR WELLS: Same basis.
PN2688
THE COMMISSIONER: Same again. A42, to be checked.
EXHIBIT #A42 MINUTES OF ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 30/11/2011
MR ABBOTT: I now go to tab 72, number 8?---Yes.
PN2690
You were present at that meeting?---I was present at that meeting, yes, 3 February 2012.
PN2691
That's 3 February 2012?---Yes.
PN2692
MR WELLS: I have the December one, Commissioner. You've missed the December one.
PN2693
THE COMMISSIONER: You went from 67 to 72, Mr Abbott.
PN2694
MR ABBOTT: Yes, I did, Commissioner.
PN2695
MR WELLS: There's one in between.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2696
MR ABBOTT: Is that in our book?
PN2697
MR WELLS: I don't know.
PN2698
MR ABBOTT: I think we're missing number - - -
PN2699
MR WELLS: 69.
PN2700
MR ABBOTT: Yes. Sorry, I've skipped over it. I'll go back to meeting number 7, which - this witness was not at that meeting, so unless you wish me to have it marked for identification to keep the order in - - -
PN2701
MR WELLS: That would be a good idea.
PN2702
MR ABBOTT: Yes, I think so. Commissioner, could I have marked for identification the document behind tab 69; the minutes of the meeting number 7 of 14 December 2011.
PN2703
THE COMMISSIONER: Certainly. That will be A43, marked for identification. Document 69.
MFI #A43 MINUTES OF ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 14/12/2011
MR ABBOTT: I now go to meeting number 8 of 3 February 2012, which you were present at?---That's correct.
PN2705
And I tender the minutes of that meeting, again with the reservation by my learned friend.
PN2706
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
THE COMMISSIONER: A44, to be checked.
EXHIBIT #A44 MINUTES OF ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 3/02/2012
MR ABBOTT: Tab 73, the meeting number 9 of 23 February 2012. You were present at that meeting?---I was present, yes.
PN2708
I tender the minutes of that meeting, with the same reservation of my learned friend.
PN2709
THE COMMISSIONER: A45, to be checked.
EXHIBIT #A45 MINUTES OF ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 23/02/2012
MR ABBOTT: I go to tab 74. You'll see that is, I think, just the agenda for the final meeting of 22 March 2012?---Yes.
PN2711
I tender the agenda - you were at the meeting which is behind tab 77. We'll deal with the agenda first. I tender the agenda.
PN2712
THE COMMISSIONER: That will be A46. Mr Wells?
PN2713
MR WELLS: Thank you.
EXHIBIT #A46 AGENDA FOR ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 22/03/2012
MR ABBOTT: The final meeting is behind tab 77. You were at that meeting?
---Yes, I was.
PN2715
I tender the minutes of meeting number 10, of 22 March 2012.
PN2716
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
THE COMMISSIONER: A47.
PN2717
MR WELLS: Also to be checked.
EXHIBIT #A47 MINUTES OF ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 22/03/2012
MR ABBOTT: In relation to the meeting of 23 February 2012, which is A45, meeting number 9, I think you have this morning produced a copy of the agenda for that and your notes. Could you look at this document, please, and confirm that this is the agenda for that meeting - our exhibit A45, meeting number 9, behind tab 73 - and that those are your notes of that meeting?---That's correct.
PN2719
I ask that they be tendered as exhibit A45(a).
PN2720
MR WELLS: Or marked.
PN2721
THE COMMISSIONER: You want them marked at this stage, because you haven't checked them or you haven't seen them?
PN2722
MR WELLS: I haven't seen them.
PN2723
MR ABBOTT: Marked then, exhibit A45(a).
PN2724
THE COMMISSIONER: To be checked by yourself. Subject to - - -
PN2725
MR WELLS: I might have missed it in the flow. These are ones that have been produced this morning?
PN2726
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. This is the fourth document you haven't seen.
PN2727
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
MR ABBOTT: This is an agenda and her notes.
PN2728
MR WELLS: Yes, so we would ask that it be marked for identification.
PN2729
THE COMMISSIONER: Certainly. We'll mark it for identification A45(a). You have full reservations on those, Mr Wells.
PN2730
MR WELLS: Yes. Thank you.
MFI #A45(A) AGENDA FOR ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 23/02/2012 PLUS NOTES
MR ABBOTT: Looking at this document which appears to be the agenda for the final meeting, number 10, on 22 March - our exhibit A46,
behind tab 74 - could you confirm that this is the agenda and your notes of that meeting, please?
---Could I just have - - -
PN2732
Here is the document?---That one.
PN2733
MR WELLS: We haven't seen that.
PN2734
MR ABBOTT: No. I ask that that be marked for identification.
PN2735
THE COMMISSIONER: So this is the fifth document Mr Wells hasn't seen?
PN2736
MR ABBOTT: Yes, and I haven't seen it either. I've had it in my hands; I haven't read it?---Yes. That's the agenda of 22 March 2012 and my notes on the back, and there are some more notes added, yes.
PN2737
Just going through the book of documents - - -
PN2738
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, can we just clarify it. That's A46(a)?
PN2739
MR ABBOTT: Sorry, yes, MFI A46(a).
PN2740
MR WELLS: Thank you.
MFI #A46(A) AGENDA FOR ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 22/03/2012 PLUS NOTES
MR ABBOTT: You will need to, during the lunch hour, look at a copy of these documents and see if you are able to assist in identifying any further the meeting - and I'm sorry to have done this in such a rush - which you refer to in paragraphs 20 and 21?---Yes.
PN2742
And 22?---Yes, I'll do that.
PN2743
But if I may continue, after the negotiation meeting, I think you received exhibit A28, which is behind tab 78, being the school's final offer?---That's correct, yes.
PN2744
I then refer you to tab 82, an email from Simon Murray regarding the voting, 21 November 2012. Did you receive that email?---Yes, I would have received a copy.
PN2745
And you'll see that attached to it - I hope attached to it - is a document entitled Enterprise Agreement 2012, signed by Simon Murray and bearing the date 21 November?---Yes.
PN2746
MR WELLS: Sorry, is that supposed to be part of - - -
PN2747
MR ABBOTT: It is, yes.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2748
MR WELLS: We don't have it.
PN2749
MR ABBOTT: Well, you will have it. It's your headmaster's document.
PN2750
MR WELLS: I don't have - - -
PN2751
MR ABBOTT: Commissioner, can I ask in your copy is there a two-page document attached to that email?
PN2752
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. I think these are the two pages that appeared on my bench on the second day.
PN2753
MR ABBOTT: Right.
PN2754
THE COMMISSIONER: You haven't got it either? We'll fix that.
PN2755
MR ABBOTT: Thank you. They now have it. I apply to tender the email from Simon Murray of 21 November, with the two-page document which came with it entitled Enterprise Agreement 2012, as an exhibit.
PN2756
MR WELLS: Can I ask that it be marked because, hitherto, we haven't had the extra pages and I haven't read them.
PN2757
THE COMMISSIONER: We'll mark it for identification, A48.
MFI #A48 EMAIL FROM SIMON MURRAY DATED 21/11/2012 PLUS DOCUMENT ENTITLED ENTERPRISE AGREEMENT 2012
MR ABBOTT: Would you now look at tab 83?---Yes.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2759
You'll see that that's an email from Laurie Humphreys, said to be down the bottom on behalf of you and others?---Yes.
PN2760
You remember that email?---Yes, I do.
PN2761
That was a response from Mr Humphreys to education support officers, et cetera. You see that?---Yes, I do.
PN2762
I tender that email.
PN2763
THE COMMISSIONER: A49.
EXHIBIT #A49 EMAIL FROM LAURIE HUMPHREYS
MR ABBOTT: Looking at the next tab, there is at least an acknowledgment about the ballot. You've seen that?---Yes, I remember this.
PN2765
I tender that.
PN2766
THE COMMISSIONER: A50.
EXHIBIT #A50 DOCUMENT RE ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF BALLOT
MR ABBOTT: Tab 85 appears to be a duplicate of 83. After the enterprise agreement had been approved by the Commissioner on 21 December 2012, staff still continued to receive staff lunches and morning teas?---That's correct, yes.
PN2768
Did you attend or were you aware of a staff meeting on or about 29 April 2013 when Mr Haseldine announced, in a round about way, that staff lunches were no longer to be provided?
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2769
MR WELLS: Well, sorry, I'm not sure if that's an appropriate question.
PN2770
MR ABBOTT: I'll rephrase it. Were you present at a staff meeting on first day of term 2, approximately 29 April 2013, or not?---I was present, yes.
PN2771
Did you hear Mr Haseldine say anything then?---I did hear - I watched his presentation. He had a PowerPoint presentation.
PN2772
How did it give it?---It was a PowerPoint presentation to staff.
PN2773
And what was said on the topic, if anything, of staff lunches and morning teas?---I can't remember his exact wording. I remember what my thoughts were; that that wasn't very explicitly stated - - -
PN2774
MR WELLS: I'm sorry to interrupt. Perhaps we can have the extent to which the witness can actually recall what was being said, rather than what her thoughts were about it.
PN2775
THE COMMISSIONER: Let's commence with what you heard on the day?---I can't remember the exact wording that I heard on the day.
PN2776
MR ABBOTT: Could you give us the effect of the wording, please? The word "catering" may be of assistance to you?---Yes. All I recall about that meeting was that I was left with a feeling of were we just told that we weren't getting any more lunches? Is that what we've just heard?
PN2777
So you can't remember how he put it?---I can't remember how he put it, no. I remember there was talk about the school's looking at their finances and looking to be more efficient in how it spent money. That was part of the PowerPoint presentation.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2778
So you're saying that you don't recall anything directly said about staff lunches; by use of that term?---I can't recall the exact wording. We left that meeting with the clear thought that something was about to happen to our lunches, but it was vague as to exactly what that was; whether they were going to stop or not.
PN2779
Okay?---At that particular meeting.
PN2780
Would you look at tab 90, which is entitled "Catering update term 3"?---Yes.
PN2781
"Re catering from term 3"?---Yes.
PN2782
Was that the official announcement, if I can call it that?---That's what we would regard as the official announcement, yes. It was sent by an email.
PN2783
So we read in that - I'm looking now at the fourth paragraph under the end of question 1 - "As a result, the decision has been made by counsel to remove the provision of staff lunches and morning tea"?---Yes.
PN2784
That's a pretty direct statement?---That is direct, yes.
PN2785
How does that compare to what Mr Haseldine was saying?---In the actual meeting in Mem Hall it wasn't as direct as in this document, otherwise we would have left with a clear idea that this was definitely happening. This was the first time that it was absolutely black and white, confirmed in the exact, explicit wording.
PN2786
And looking at tab 92, is that your response to that email?---Yes, that's correct.
PN2787
You say in this email, "The conversation I have most commonly come across during the past few weeks has been relating to the use of Da Costa dining hall and not as much the loss of free lunches themselves." What did you mean by that?
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
---We were - well, firstly, I wrote this email in response to a request from Mr Haseldine for anyone who has any comments, to please forward them to him. What I meant by that was the staff were most disappointed that the staff were losing the collegiality and what we felt was core to our being as people as Saint's in having shared lunches in the dining hall. The point I was trying to make was while we might understand that, you know, the school can come to certain positions and we might not agree with them - but this email particularly dealt with whether we could continue using Da Costa dining hall to warm up our own lunches, seeing as it was a commercial provider that was providing the meals.
PN2788
So you were trying to explore the possibility that even if you had to bring your own lunch from hereafter - - -?---That's correct.
PN2789
- - - whether you'd still be able to enjoy the collegiality of the Da Costa dining hall?---That's right - and remembering that as the staff were representative, this wasn't just my own view. This was, as I said in the email, the view of all lot of other staff, as well. If we're not going to be continuing with our lunches which we'd regarded for all these years as part of our employment, would we at least be able to continue using the room in the same way as we had before.
PN2790
And what was the school's response to that? Were you allowed to continue to use Da Costa dining hall to eat your own lunch in?---We can. I can't remember exactly what the response was to my email. There was some vagueness as to whether they would provide microwave ovens, toaster ovens and the like that would make it comfortable for us to enjoy it there.
PN2791
What, in the hall?---In the Da Costa dining hall, yes.
PN2792
Have they?---I don't think - we didn't have - I didn't have a direct answer to that question, no.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2793
I tender the email.
PN2794
MR WELLS: Tab 92, you're referring to?
PN2795
MR ABBOTT: I'm referring to tab 92, Commissioner.
PN2796
THE COMMISSIONER: The email will be A51.
EXHIBIT #A51 EMAIL
MR ABBOTT: I now take you to tab 96?---Yes.
PN2798
I'm sorry, not tab 96. Tab 97, which is a letter from Mr Humphreys on behalf of all staff. Were you aware of that letter?---Yes, I was. I've seen it.
PN2799
You've seen that?---Yes.
PN2800
And you approved of Mr Humphreys sending that?---Yes, absolutely.
PN2801
I apply to tender the letter of 16 July 2013, behind tab 97.
PN2802
THE COMMISSIONER: That will be A52.
EXHIBIT #A52 LETTER FROM MR HUMPHREYS DATED 16/07/2013
MR ABBOTT: Looking at the document behind tab 98, someone called James Harvey has written a letter. Is that the letter in response?---I haven't actually seen this letter before. This is the first time I've seen it. It looks like the letter of response to - - -
PN2804
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
Sorry, you don't have to say anything. I take it there will be no quibble about this. I'm presuming Mr Harvey is well known to my learned friends. I apply to tender the letter of 16 July 2013.
PN2805
MR WELLS: I'm sure there has been a copy, but - - -
PN2806
THE COMMISSIONER: A53.
EXHIBIT #A53 LETTER FROM JAMES HARVEY DATED 16/07/2013
MR ABBOTT: That letter refers to council providing a response after the council meeting. Did you ever hear from the council itself?
PN2808
MR WELLS: Sorry, that's slightly vague. Is my friend referring to whether Ms Van Rensburg actually received a letter or whether she saw a letter of response or whether there was some other response - - -
PN2809
MR ABBOTT: I'm covering all bases, so was there a response of any sort from the council as distinct from the headmaster?
PN2810
MR WELLS: Well, the same problem. Until my friend nominates what he's actually asking for, the question is so much at large that it could cover rumours heard.
PN2811
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Abbott, you've got a letter from Mr Harvey.
PN2812
MR ABBOTT: The letter says, "I will provide a response."
PN2813
THE COMMISSIONER: So if we commence from there.
PN2814
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
MR ABBOTT: Yes.
PN2815
Mr Harvey's letter, exhibit A53, behind tab 98, says, "I will provide a response after this council meeting." Did Mr Harvey ever provide a response to your knowledge?---If he did, I haven't seen one, no.
PN2816
If you go to tab 99, you attended a meeting on Tuesday, 30 July, did you not?---I did, yes.
PN2817
And how did that meeting come about?---That was a meeting that was set up in response to the staff claim that the meals had been removed without consultation and, in our mind, not properly.
PN2818
Yes?---So that we could hear the position of the school's lawyer, Mr Short.
PN2819
We'll come to those people. First of all, in attendance is Mr Murray. Do you recognise Mr Murray? Is he the person sitting in the body of this room?---That's correct, yes.
PN2820
Mr Short: is he the person who is junioring my learned friend?---That's correct.
PN2821
Annette Cinnamond, you knew?---Yes.
PN2822
Did you know Mr Short, by the way? Had you met him before?---No. I haven't, no.
PN2823
Who is Sally Ziniak?---Sally Ziniak at that time was the IEU representative for teaching staff in the senior school.
PN2824
We know who Laurie Humphreys is. He's a teacher at the school?---Mm'hm.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2825
Ms Anne Edwards is an IEU organiser who is on the - - -?---Mm'hm.
PN2826
And she's sitting here in the back?---She is, yes, at the back of the room.
PN2827
You're there. Terry Fry. Who is Terry Fry?---Terry Fry is one of the maintenance persons at St Peter's. He was standing in for Rob Francis, who was the representative for the grounds and maintenance - actually for just the maintenance staff in the consultation.
PN2828
And Mr John Athanasiou, who was standing in for Ms Wendy DiMonte, who was the previous witness?---That's correct.
PN2829
Mr Athanasiou, do you know him?---I do. He's a teacher in the junior school at St Peter's.
PN2830
Did you make notes of this meeting?---I did, yes.
PN2831
Who prepared these minutes that are behind - who, to your knowledge? Was it you or the school or what?---The minutes were prepared - - -
PN2832
Yes, these minutes?---The ones I'm looking at?
PN2833
Yes, the ones you are looking at behind tab - - -?---That would be Annette Cinnamond.
PN2834
Cinnamond. Right?---Yes.
PN2835
But you kept your own notes, I think?---I did, yes.
PN2836
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
Could you confirm that these are they?---Yes, these are my notes of that meeting.
PN2837
It's after 1 o'clock. Would it be convenient to have these documents photocopied and the witness to resume - - -
PN2838
MR WELLS: Are you going to tender these?
PN2839
MR ABBOTT: Yes, I will be tendering them. I'm going to take her through this meeting with the use of her notes. That's all.
PN2840
THE COMMISSIONER: The witness's notes, are they the last document that Mr Wells - - -
PN2841
MR ABBOTT: Yes, they are. They're the last - I'll just confirm that. They are the last of the documents.
PN2842
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, we can conclude the witness's evidence for the notes you have in your hand, like the other five, and then we'll give them all to Mr Wells during the break.
PN2843
MR ABBOTT: I need a copy. I don't have them either and I want to ask her some questions about the notes. I was wondering if we could avail upon your associate to photocopy the documents that have been given so far - while we wait for a copy - and then we can both look at them, because I don't have a copy of them either.
PN2844
THE COMMISSIONER: So you don't wish to proceed with this last document with the witness before lunch?
PN2845
MR ABBOTT: No, because I don't have a copy before me to take her to the various pages of it. I've gone through, as I said I would, putting these documents before the witness and getting her to identify them. I'll be tendering these minutes and her notes immediately after lunch, as well.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2846
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wells, we might adjourn and get this copying done. I'll like you to provide that other document to Mr Wells, as well, Mr Abbott.
PN2847
MR ABBOTT: I'm sorry?
PN2848
THE COMMISSIONER: The last of these six documents.
PN2849
MR ABBOTT: Yes. They are all here before the commission.
PN2850
THE COMMISSIONER: Not as I'm advised. I've got one original copy of all the documents you've gone through so far. There are five in front of me.
PN2851
MR ABBOTT: I'm sorry. Can we have her notes identified then as an MFI at this stage?
PN2852
THE COMMISSIONER: I think that would be appropriate. We haven't dealt with the minutes at tab 99 yet.
PN2853
MR ABBOTT: No, I'll been applying to tender those, as well as the notes, in due course; so they can be marked for identification, as well, at this stage.
PN2854
THE COMMISSIONER: The notes will be A54, marked for identification.
MFI #A54 NOTES OF MEETING OF 30/07/2013
THE COMMISSIONER: If you're tendering the minutes at tab 99, they'll be A55.
EXHIBIT #A55 MINUTES OF MEETING OF 30/07/2013
THE COMMISSIONER: Do you want to adjourn at that juncture?
PN2857
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
MR ABBOTT: Yes, I do.
PN2858
THE COMMISSIONER: So we can copy all these documents.
PN2859
MR ABBOTT: I do, Commissioner.
PN2860
THE COMMISSIONER: You'll get a copy and Mr Wells can have a copy.
PN2861
MR ABBOTT: Yes.
PN2862
THE COMMISSIONER: What time would you like to return, Mr Wells? You're at some sort of a disadvantage.
PN2863
MR WELLS: Yes.
PN2864
THE COMMISSIONER: 2.30?
PN2865
MR WELLS: Can we try for that and perhaps I can report then - - -
PN2866
THE COMMISSIONER: Okay.
PN2867
MR WELLS: I'll try to have them done by then. It just depends what I've got to work through.
PN2868
THE COMMISSIONER: I appreciate that. Thank you. We'll adjourn until 2.30.
<LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [1.08PM]
<RESUMED [3.13PM]
PN2869
MR ABBOTT: Ms Van Rensburg, I want to ask you some questions about the documents that have been marked for identification. Firstly, can I ask my learned friends whether they can now be tendered or is there - - -
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2870
MR WELLS: No, I think they will be - - -
PN2871
MR ABBOTT: Do that one by one, yes. We'll do that one by one.
PN2872
I think the first document in point of time you provided were the two documents that related to 2008. Is that right?---A35?
PN2873
THE COMMISSIONER: It was A35 and A36.
PN2874
MR ABBOTT: Yes, that's right.
PN2875
THE COMMISSIONER: A35 is the document of 29 July 2008.
PN2876
MR ABBOTT: July 2008. I seem to have lost my copy. A35 - - -?---Yes.
PN2877
I don't ask you anything about that, unless you can relate that to any of the enterprise bargaining meetings that you mentioned in paragraphs 13 through to 17, because that's one of the meetings that fall within that period?---It is one of the meetings, yes, but I don't think it's relevant for my statement.
PN2878
Okay. I ask that A35 become exhibit A35.
PN2879
MR WELLS: Yes.
PN2880
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. A35 is altered.
EXHIBIT #A35 FORMERLY MFI A35
MR ABBOTT: The next one is A36, which is 23 September 2008, with your notes?---Yes.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2882
That's the agenda with your notes?---Yes.
PN2883
Again, I don't want to ask you any questions other than whether you're able to indicate, in relation to that meeting, whether that's one of the ones you refer to in paragraphs 13 through to 17?---Well, it is one of the meetings that's relevant to that period of time, but there's nothing in my notes that relates specifically to benefits.
PN2884
I apply to tender A36.
PN2885
MR WELLS: Yes.
PN2886
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
EXHIBIT #A36 FORMERLY MFI A36
MR ABBOTT: There's nothing that you've seen in the documents I've presented to you - either in the book of documents or in the extra documents that you've produced - that enables you to assist us as to which meetings it was in which the sentiments you express in paragraphs 13 through to 17 occurred?---No, there's nothing in my notes that helps me to remember those exact dates.
PN2888
But was it one meeting or more than one meeting?---It was more than one meeting.
PN2889
We now move on to paragraph 18, about negotiating the current agreement. In that regard, we have A37, which is the agenda page for the negotiating meeting number 3?---Yes, and I've got my notes written on the back of the agenda.
PN2890
Yes?---And some extra documents here.
PN2891
The comment you record in paragraph 21 of your statement, are you able to relate that to any meeting and, if so, was it this meeting referred to in A37?---I can relate it to a meeting, but it's not this particular one.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2892
I tender A37, being the agenda sheet with the witness's notes.
PN2893
MR WELLS: I just want to be clear. Is the whole document being put forward as consisting of the agenda and the witness's notes in relation to the meeting that was held in relation to that agenda, and nothing else?
PN2894
MR ABBOTT: I've only got one page of - how many pages have you got?
PN2895
MR WELLS: You see, I don't have the original, as it were. I'm not sure whether I have it exactly as it is in the original. I probably do, because it would have been faithfully printed off in that way, but I just notice that on the back of - you have the agenda and then there are some notes on the back which don't appear to be the beginning of the notes, and then there is another page with notes on it, numbered. On the back of that, there is a table which we haven't heard anything about yet.
PN2896
MR ABBOTT: And we're not going to, unless you ask. I'll clarify this for my learned friend's benefit then.
PN2897
MR WELLS: Thank you. I'm obliged.
PN2898
MR ABBOTT: Do you have your set of notes that are currently MFI A37?
---Yes.
PN2899
Included in that, at the back, are in fact the meetings - - -?---Yes.
PN2900
The minutes of the meeting number 3 of 23 September 2011. That's your copy of those minutes?---That's correct.
PN2901
That's our exhibit A39 under tab 63. Just go to tab 63 and confirm that that's so, please. You've got tab 63 out?---I've got it.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2902
Yes?---Yes, it's the same minutes.
PN2903
Now, would you go through tab 63, on a bit - keep going?---Yes.
PN2904
Keep going?---Yes.
PN2905
You'll see attachment A?---That's right.
PN2906
Now, with attachment A in that exhibit, facing upwards - - -?---Yes.
PN2907
- - - would you then go to the third page of your notes which are numbered on the left-hand side?---Yes.
PN2908
And are you able now to tell us what those numbers relate to?---So these numbers relate to - as the school was putting its position and its response to our claims, those are my notes relating to each point that they were making, so as it was being put to the - - -
PN2909
So, for example, the first box in attachment A - - -?---Yes.
PN2910
On the left-hand side it says "General matters" and the school's response is said to be, "Not the school's aim to erode or undercut conditions available under previous system"?---That's correct.
PN2911
What have you noted?---I've noted number 1.
PN2912
Number 1, yes?---I can't see because it's stapled.
PN2913
Yes?---"Not to be uncut. School agrees."
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2914
I think it's "conditions"?---"Conditions", I think, yes.
PN2915
"Conditions not to be undercut. School agrees"?---That's right, yes.
PN2916
And so on and so forth down the page. Is that right?---That's right, yes.
PN2917
So that page of your notes relates to those attachments?---That's exactly right, yes.
PN2918
If you take up your copy of minute number 3, please - meeting number 3. This is the final version?---Yes.
PN2919
And go to page 2. You'll see halfway down, "Simon then proceeded to present the school's detailed response - - -"?---That's correct.
PN2920
- - - "to each item identified in the staff claim. A full copy of the school's response in the staff claim is attached at attachment A." These are your notes of that point in time?---That's exactly right. Those are my notes on that attachment.
PN2921
Go to the back of the agenda page. What portion of the meeting are you able to say those notes relate to?---Okay. I'll have to remind myself.
PN2922
I think if you look at the final copy of the minutes - - -?---Yes.
PN2923
- - - you'll see that there was presentation, first of all, by the headmaster and then by Jason Haseldine?---Yes.
PN2924
You've written, halfway down that page "Finances"?---"Finances," yes. So what that would be, that's from the start of the meeting. Those are my notes relating to the first part of the presentation of the school's response. It starts at the top and then "Finances" would relate to the part that Jason talked about; the finances of the school.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2925
So to assist my learned friend, if we go to the final copy of the minutes - - -?
---Yes.
PN2926
The back of the agenda page relates to the first one and a half pages or so of the typed minutes?---That's correct.
PN2927
And the second page of notes relates to only four lines; the bit about Simon proceeding to present the school's response?---That's correct.
PN2928
And apparently none of these notes then relate to the discussions and questions section?---No. None of these notes that I've got here, no.
PN2929
I apply to tender A37 as an exhibit.
PN2930
THE COMMISSIONER: Does that satisfy you, Mr Wells, about the nature of the notes?
PN2931
MR WELLS: That's sufficient for the moment.
PN2932
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. So altered.
EXHIBIT #A37 FORMERLY MFI A37
MR ABBOTT: I now go to the next document, A45(a). This relates to meeting number 9. Is that the agenda for meeting number 9, together with some pages of your minutes [sic]?---That's right. The agenda was mine and the pages that - my notes are written just on some scrap paper that I had lying around, yes.
PN2934
Yes. I apply to tender A45(a).
PN2935
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
THE COMMISSIONER: So altered.
EXHIBIT #45(A) FORMERLY MFI A45(A)
MR ABBOTT: Now go to A46(a), please. For this, I'll need you to look at what is at tab 77, which is the final - if I can call them the final, but I mean the typed notes prepared by the school of that negotiation meeting?---Yes, that's right.
PN2937
Can we start off with what's obvious - or do you agree that the notes that are behind the page marked "Agenda" and - on the back of that, and then on the next page they are your notes?---They are my notes and - - -
PN2938
Of meeting number 10?---That's right.
PN2939
Our exhibit A47, behind tab 77. Correct?---Tab 77.
PN2940
Tab 77?---Yes, to that meeting - - -
PN2941
Yes, that's meeting number 10 on 22 March?---That's the minutes of that meeting. Yes, that's right.
PN2942
I want to ask you some questions with particular reference to one of the meetings that you mention where Mr Murray said to Mr Humphreys,
"Staff need to remember that things like meals you all enjoy can very easily be taken away"?
---Yes.
PN2943
First of all, having looked at your notes again, are you able to now identify the meeting where comments like that were made?---Yes, this was the meeting. It was in this meeting that there was a discussion along those lines.
PN2944
We'll try and go through the notes and the school's version of the minutes to see whether we can pick it up. Would you turn to the back of A46(a). There's a date up the top, 22/3/12. Is that the first page of your notes?---That is the first page, yes.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2945
If we turn over that page, there's a page with a typed heading Suggestions?---Yes.
PN2946
Is that page 2 of your notes?---That's the second page, yes.
PN2947
And on the back of the page marked Agenda - is that page 3?---Yes, it is.
PN2948
I'd just like to see if we can, first of all - to assist the Commissioner and my learned friend - see where your notes relate to the typed minutes. I think a good starting point is on page 1 of your notes. On the left-hand side, there's a note which I think is "Workload"?---Yes.
PN2949
And what have you written alongside the word "Workload"?---"School has offered PD training for middle management."
PN2950
And then Simon - - -?---And then Simon said, "Nothing is more constant than change."
PN2951
Just pausing there, we can pick that up on page 2 of the typed notes under "Workload", can we not?---Yes.
PN2952
Where the typed notes say, "Nothing is more constant than change"?---That's correct, yes.
PN2953
Are you able to tell us then whether what appears prior to the word "Workload" are the only notes that you made of what is on page 1 and the first half of page 2 of the type record?---Yes, they are, so they relate to co-curricula.
PN2954
And we can see "Co-curricula" on the left-hand side in the margin of your notes?
---That's right.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2955
Just in your notes there's a reference some six lines down below "Co-curricula" to the words "To start"?---Yes.
PN2956
What does that sentence say?---Right. It says, "To start in good faith as soon as in-principle agreement to EB."
PN2957
Do you remember what that was about?---Yes. There was a discussion about the co-curricula band system at the school, which is payments for teachers and others who take co-curricula activities, as a restructure of that band system. That sentence relates to the school said that they wanted to start the process of reviewing - they were setting up a committee in good faith as soon as we have in-principle agreement to the enterprise agreement and not wait until that has been ratified formally.
PN2958
Just go down in your notes, below "Workload"?---Yes.
PN2959
Just after the phrase, "Nothing more constant than change"?---Yes.
PN2960
You're recording what Simon Murray, the headmaster, said?---That's correct.
PN2961
Continue on. With the benefit of your notes, what did he say?---What he said was, "There is bound to be some angst in managing the heat."
PN2962
Yes?---"And no staff are saying the ideas are crazy ideas." Those were certain new introductions into their workload and procedures that they had to comply with.
PN2963
Yes?---And then it says, "Some ideas more crazy than others."
PN2964
Then you've got the word "Consultation"?---"Consultation", yes.
PN2965
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
Do you remember who said that?---Simon was still talking. This is still Mr Murray talking.
PN2966
Yes?---And he was referring here to the process of consultation. Staff were concerned that they weren't consulted in the introduction of many of the new measures; a lot of them to do with IT.
PN2967
Had something been said about that to this point in time perhaps?---Yes, I think so.
PN2968
Yes?---And Simon had referred to the fact that, yes, he was taking it on the chin - - -
PN2969
Taking what on the chin?---The fact that the consultation hadn't happened. He was hearing staff in that.
PN2970
And then you've written down the words - what?---"Some need to be done better."
PN2971
Some what needs to be done better?---Some of these consultation processes. That was what I took from that.
PN2972
Right. Okay?---And the "SLT" is the senior leadership team.
PN2973
Yes?---"Need to look at how we can look at getting a step ahead of staff."
PN2974
I have finished with that page. Could you go on to page 2?---Yes.
PN2975
Page 2, we can relate to some of page 3 or at least we can relate it to perhaps part of - the bottom of page 2 and the top of page 3, because you've recorded about two-thirds of the way down on the right-hand side the words "Sandwich lunches"?---Yes.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2976
And we can see "Sandwich lunch" about six lines down on page 3?---Yes, that's correct.
PN2977
Can you see that?---Yes.
PN2978
Could you tell us what these notes relate to? Go down to "Sandwich lunches - - -"?---Yes.
PN2979
- - - from the top of what you've written down, please. Is this still Simon - Mr Murray talking?---That's still Mr Murray talking. The "Sandwich lunches - - -"
PN2980
Don't worry, we'll come to those?---Yes.
PN2981
Just go from the top though?---From the top of my notes or - - -
PN2982
Yes, from the top of page 2 of your notes?---Of my notes. Okay.
PN2983
MR WELLS: Can I just be clear from my friend's question. When he says, "Still Mr Murray talking," is the question that there is continuous talking from Mr Murray from the point where it was last left off?
PN2984
MR ABBOTT: No.
PN2985
MR WELLS: Or are we identifying another passage of Mr Murray speaking? If it's the latter, perhaps we can identify where it starts.
PN2986
MR ABBOTT: Right. First of all, it's not Mr Murray still talking because down the bottom of - well, I'll ask the witness.
PN2987
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
Go to the bottom of page 1 of your notes?---Yes.
PN2988
There are some words, "Annette will prepare draft," et cetera?---Yes.
PN2989
Who is saying that, if you can remember?---If I can just read it. That is still Mr Murray talking in my notes, yes.
PN2990
Go over to page 2. The initial words are, I think, "Job security and opportunities"?---That is still his words.
PN2991
Right?---Up to where it says "policy and procedure" on my notes.
PN2992
Where is "policy and procedure"?---It says, "Simon wants to get it to the group not included in the EB. Not industrial. It is policy and procedure."
PN2993
Yes?---Up to that point is what he was saying.
PN2994
Right. Okay. I see "policy and procedure". So the first line of page 2, "Job security and opportunities" - and what are the next words?---I think it says "tangent benefits".
PN2995
Yes, okay. That's Mr Murray talking?---That's Mr Murray talking, yes.
PN2996
What did Mr Murray say about benefits?---There was a discussion about workload. It was a long discussion. Staff - - -
PN2997
You haven't noted everything, I take it?---That's right. What Mr Murray was saying at this point is that the staff have many benefits as to their employment at St Peter's. In my understanding, the benefits that I would have referred to is the lunches and maybe the use of the gym, but lunches is - - -
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN2998
Is that "target benefits" or some other word?---Possibly - sorry, I can't read my own writing. Either "target benefits" or "tangent benefits", whatever that means.
PN2999
In any event - - -?---Yes.
PN3000
We'll come back to that. Just go on and tell us what your notes say then?---It says, "The app" - I think it stands for "appropriate" - "consultation and dispute resolution mechanism."
PN3001
"Appropriate consultation," yes?---We were discussing at this point that we needed a good consultative committee. Up to that point the consultative committee had consisted of one person and I remember there was a discussion about we should ensure that we have good consultative mechanisms, because many of the workload issues were related to non-consultation with the staff who were affected by them.
PN3002
If you go to the bottom of page 2 of the written notes - - -?---Yes.
PN3003
- - - are you able to relate - - -?---Yes, I can see there, "Simon indicated there were better mechanisms to disseminate information. Small groups of faculty meetings. The large staff meetings are not structures for consultation." That's also related to that conversation relating to consultation.
PN3004
Line 1 of page 2 says, "Job security and opportunities," and then something "benefits"?---Yes.
PN3005
MR WELLS: Sorry, just because they're different page numbers, I take it my friend is referring to the written minutes when he's referring to page 2.
PN3006
MR ABBOTT: Yes, I am. I'm referring to page 2 of the witness's notes of the meeting?---Yes.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN3007
MR WELLS: Thank you.
PN3008
MR ABBOTT: You've said there was a discussion about benefits. Who had that discussion about the benefits?---In my memory, it was between Laurie Humphreys and Mr Murray.
PN3009
And what sort of things did they say to each other about benefits?---Well, Laurie - Mr Murray was saying that there are many benefits to working at St Peter's College. We need to bear that in mind and we need to remember how lucky we are to be working at the school, and that staff - the workload might have increased, but we should still be appreciative of the type of benefits that we have at St Peter's. The discussion continued - I can't remember every word that was said.
PN3010
Would you go to paragraph 21 of your statement, please?---Yes. Shall I carry on?
PN3011
Would you go to paragraph 21?---Yes.
PN3012
Are you able now to identify in your written notes the approximate point where you think this came in? You said it was at this meeting?---That's correct, yes. At this point where Mr Murray and Laurie Humphreys were having the discussion, there was some frustration as to not seeing eye to eye about these matters and Mr Murray said staff need to remember that those benefits, like meals, can very easily - they won't stay forever. They can very easily disappear, I think was actually - his actual word.
PN3013
Go on with your notes on page 2, please?---Yes.
PN3014
I think you were down to, "If the committee is operating successfully"?---Yes. "If the committee is operating successfully, the type of issues such as lack of consultation will not be occurring at the next EB." That was Mr Murray making the point that if we had an effective consultative committee - and thereby inferring that the committee up to that point had not been effective - if they are operating successfully, in other words, we wouldn't be having these kinds of conversations during the EB process and the staff wouldn't be frustrated at the lack of consultation as they see it.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN3015
And then the next line is, "Simon," something?---"Simon wants to get it to the group."
PN3016
Wants to get what to the group?---"The following: not included in the BE. Is not industrial. It is policy and procedure." What that refers to is if a particular benefit is not written in black and white in the EB, it's not regarded as industrial and therefore it's policy and procedure, and not for discussion during the enterprise bargaining process.
PN3017
Did that provoke a response from anyone?---Well, there were several discussions. Chris - - -
PN3018
Yes, that's Chris, being - - -?--- - - - Smyth said that maybe staff meetings could be a better conduit for consultations. There was some thought amongst - the staff representative, that there are matters that should be consulted on that aren't necessarily black on white written in an EB and therefore consultation does not just refer to matters written in an EB or industrial. It could refer to others - - -
PN3019
MR WELLS: I'm sorry, I'm not following where this is coming from.
PN3020
MR ABBOTT: We've got here, "Chris, staff meeting could be conduit for consultation," and then what is the next line?---"SLT," which is the senior leadership team, "could be giving info," information, "and getting feedback from staff."
PN3021
And then Simon says - - -?---"Yes, staff have the collected wisdom and give good input."
PN3022
Yes?---He was talking about a staff bulletin or some mechanism to hear what staff had to say, so this was an ongoing toing and froing conversation about consultation.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN3023
Yes?---And then, "Annette" - and that's not me. That's Annette Cinnamond - "suggested that Simon took to the SLT," the senior leadership team, "mechanisms to make things work better," and that's where the sandwich lunches reference - - -
PN3024
If you go to page 3 of the written notes, you'll see on the third paragraph where there's a reference to the sandwich lunch, just like your notes, the written notes have, "Annette C. suggested these comments may be useful to take to the senior leadership team." Is that the sort of thing that was being said at that point in time?---Yes. At the top of that page, yes. That's correct. That's exactly right.
PN3025
Then we've got the sandwich lunch?---That's right.
PN3026
And then you've got, in the typed notes, "Laurie commented"?---"Whether the connection between staff and management was close enough."
PN3027
Yes. Your handwritten notes have Laurie as the next item?---Yes.
PN3028
What have you got Laurie - - -?---"Other places have staff representation at decision-making stage." Yes, I remember. He was referring to other workplaces that might have a staff representative at decision-making stages when changes are being discussed by management. He was trying to make the point that it is common practice for staff to be represented in those discussions.
PN3029
Right?---"Management should be fully aware of the impact that it has on staff." The wording he says - "There could be a gap between leadership and the coal face," meaning the staff, "if this process doesn't happen."
PN3030
Well, insofar as the school have put this in the minutes, that would appear to be contained in the fifth paragraph down on page 3 of the typed minutes insofar as it goes. Correct?---Yes, it does. It does actually mention the coal face, as well, I see. "Simone indicated that there are different ways to do this."
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN3031
Yes?---"The gap between the senior leadership team and the coal face is not as a result of lack of will. Just merely a lack of time."
PN3032
So Simon's response, you haven't recorded - - -?---That's right, yes.
PN3033
- - - in your handwritten notes?---Yes, that's right.
PN3034
Then we get on to special leave. What was the atmosphere in the meeting at this stage?---I would say it was quite tense. We were getting to - - -
PN3035
Did it remain tense or get tenser or what?---It remained tense and it got a little bit tenser, in my opinion, because there was some frustration as to the fact that the staff representatives were still disagreeing with some of the position that the school was putting forward.
PN3036
Under "Special leave" you've got, "Laurie." What have you said?---Well, in my notes it says, "Two days. Right to have it. Filling in a form without having to feel guilty."
PN3037
"To feel guilty"?---What that refers to is the staff were requesting of us as representatives to have it written into the enterprise agreement that staff could have two days of special leave which they didn't have to ask for or feel guilty about having to ask special permission to go for, and they could use that in any way they saw fit.
PN3038
And you'll something of that flavour appears to be reflected in the second paragraph under "Special leave" beginning, "Laurie stated"?---That's correct.
PN3039
The next paragraph in the typewritten notes is, "Simon stated," but go back to your notes, would you, please?---Yes.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN3040
On page 2 of your notes, down the bottom?---Yes.
PN3041
What have you written down?---It says here, "If staff are intimidated, let's look at how to improve this. Simon has been beyond generous."
PN3042
And then you quoted something?---"That's where we err."
PN3043
Those are his words, are they?---Those were his words, implying that the school errs on the side of generosity. He thought it was a backward step to have those days written into an agreement and that it should be a discussion between the staff member and an unspecified member of management.
PN3044
Right. Okay?---He didn't think anyone had been disadvantaged in the past and I recall the conversation was around why - some frustration as to why staff thought that they were feeling intimidated and that they didn't have this option.
PN3045
I want to go over now to the third page of your notes?---That's right. The third page where I've made the arrow, that's where that - special leave notes, where they continue.
PN3046
Right. So the top part has got something - is it another point in the discussion, I think?---Yes.
PN3047
We'll come to that in a minute?---Yes.
PN3048
Because I think you'll find that relates to the action items or the end of this - - -?
---That's right, yes.
PN3049
You've got in quotes the words "empowering staff". Can you remember who mentioned that or in what context it was mentioned, apart from generally about special leave?---Special leave. That was from Mr Murray.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN3050
Yes?---Let me just refresh my memory. He wanted to empower staff to feel that they felt free to come and discuss with him if they wanted - if they needed any kind of special leave. He acknowledged that there was goodwill on the part of the management and the school, and that they had a healthy track record on that matter of special leave.
PN3051
Yes?---He didn't think it was necessary to enshrine this in an industrial - "tool mechanism" I've written.
PN3052
Then he said something about "slap in the face"?---He then went on to say that it was a slap in the face of management that staff were not grateful for what they had.
PN3053
"To suggest", isn't it? "To suggest that one is not - - -"?---"That one is not - a slap in the face to management that one is not grateful for what they have." That's my wording.
PN3054
Yes?---It was slightly - - -
PN3055
And what was said?---At that point. What was said was that it was a slap in the face - that was the exact wording. I remember that or I wouldn't have written it - to management that the staff were not grateful for what they already had.
PN3056
The management being the school?---The management being the school management, yes.
PN3057
Right. So Mr Murray was suggesting what then when he used the words "slap in the face to management"?---Well, I think it's clear. What he was saying is it's an insult to the management team that the staff seem ungrateful for what they already have as benefits at the school and, therefore, keep insisting that these items be written into an enterprise agreement.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN3058
You mentioned benefits. Was this an occasion was benefits were again raised?
---Yes. Absolutely, yes.
PN3059
Then we have the words "footy final"?---Yes.
PN3060
"Why did they get it," I think are your words?---Yes.
PN3061
And then, "Because they gave in spades." You've put all that in italics?---I have got - that's because it was a quote from what Mr Murray said. He referred to an occasion which I wasn't familiar with, but it relates to a staff member who was given permission to go to a footy final, and I'm not sure what final that was. What he said was, "Why did they get it; because they gave in spades." Those would have been the exact words, because I wrote it in quotations and I remember it, as well.
PN3062
"Because they gave in spades," meaning what?---Meaning that the staff member had given generously; had been seen to give generously of their work and their time to the school and so therefore they received the permission - - -
PN3063
To go to the footy final?--- - - - to go to the footy final.
PN3064
I know your notes are not word for word everything that was said. What else was said at that point in time in the context of benefits?---Yes. At that time it - as I said, the tone of the meeting was escalating to an uncomfortable point and I remember sitting across the table next to Laurie Humphreys, who was mostly engaging in this conversation, and Mr Murray was opposite and Jason Haseldine was sitting next to him. It was said that - in fact can I correct my earlier statement?
PN3065
Sure?---This was the point where Mr Murray said, "Laurie, staff need to appreciate what they have. They need to remember what they have and they need to remember that it can be taken away at any time. These things are not perpetual. It is at the discretion of the school - - -"
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN3066
MR WELLS: Sorry, where is that being read from?
PN3067
MR ABBOTT: It's not being read from - - -?---It's my memory.
PN3068
MR WELLS: Okay.
PN3069
MR ABBOTT: Just give us the effect of what you believe was said at that time, please?---What I believe was being discussed was that we needed to be careful not to demand too much and that there are certain benefits that the school currently provide that are at the school's discretion, and that we believe we receive, but that we should remember that they can be taken away. I don't know how else to put it.
PN3070
Yes. Now, in paragraph 21 of your written statement - - -?---Yes.
PN3071
Your recollection when you gave the statement was that those were the words?
---Yes.
PN3072
Is that your recollection, that that was said at, at least, one point in time during the course of this?---Yes. There was a definite reference to the meals in that particular moment and to my recollection there was also a reference to the Christmas meal that we get every year, in that same context.
PN3073
And in your mind from what you heard, what was your understanding of what was said about whether benefits - - -?---My understanding was the meals were clearly a benefit of our employment and that they were being used as a bargaining tool in the enterprise bargaining process, because they were being mentioned as a benefit that we receive at the school.
PN3074
You've then got in your notes the word "Laurie"?---Yes.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN3075
Is that a reference to Mr Humphreys?---Mr Humphreys. That means he said then, "Better communicate what is available." In other words, maybe the school could better communicate what is actually available to staff.
PN3076
And then you've got - - -?---"Put it on notice in the minutes and try it for the life of the agreement." Although I didn't write it explicitly, that was Mr Murray again saying, "Let's put it on notice in the minutes," and referring back to the two days of special leave, "and try it for the life of this agreement and then we'll see whether staff still have an appetite to have it back," I think, or something like that.
PN3077
If you go to page 3 of the school version of these minutes, the last paragraph of "special leave" reads, "Simon put a recommendation to implement the EB for three years without the special leave clause and then we can re-visit if this is still an issue"?---That's right. That's what that would refer to. He also said, "I wouldn't mess with it. I think you're fine."
PN3078
Who said that?---Mr Murray.
PN3079
"It" being what?---The special leave.
PN3080
Then you've got in your handwritten notes - - -?---Yes.
PN3081
- - - the word "discussion"?---Yes. That was a general discussion on what had just transpired and the discussion about the school's offer.
PN3082
Yes?---Laurie - Mr Humphreys said that he wasn't comfortable to comment on the offer any further without consulting staff and he needed to get guidance from the staff as to how to proceed, because obviously we represent the staff.
PN3083
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
I won't worry about the rest of the material; whether that is identical to or conflicts with or is slightly different from the typed
minutes. Go to the top of the page?
---Yes.
PN3084
Page 3. You've got, "Anne." Is that right?---Yes, that's right.
PN3085
What did Anne say at the end of the meeting?---That's Anne Edwards and she said, "Do we have a commitment that the current" - what did I write? "Current and - clauses available under current agreement and EB would be maintained during the drafting process."
PN3086
What was that a reference to?---So that's - well, she wanted a commitment from the school just to make sure that the clauses we currently had available to us would be maintained while the enterprise agreement was being drafted, because we knew that could be quite a long process. It was a new agreement. Annette Cinnamond then said she would draft a document and the claims document would be updated.
PN3087
You'll see page 4 of the school's version under "Action" - the first line is, "Annette C.," for Cinnamond, "will revise the claim document." Does that relate to that period in your notes?---That's exactly right.
PN3088
Put that down then and we'll go to A54. If you take up tab 99 in the book of documents - I don't think I got a number for this minute of 30 July, did I?
PN3089
MR ……….: MFI 55.
PN3090
MR ABBOTT: So this is 55? MFI 55.
PN3091
THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, Mr Abbott, I'm not sure we've altered - or you've sought that A46(a) be moved to an exhibit.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN3092
MR ABBOTT: I'm sorry, yes. I seek to tender A46(a) and 47. Sorry, A46(a) - - -
PN3093
THE COMMISSIONER: You just dealt with 46(a).
PN3094
MR ABBOTT: Yes.
PN3095
THE COMMISSIONER: So you're seeking that be an exhibit?
PN3096
MR ABBOTT: Yes, I am.
PN3097
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wells?
PN3098
MR WELLS: I thought I'd noted that, but - - -
PN3099
THE COMMISSIONER: I hadn't noted it on my papers. I just wanted to, for completeness, make sure - - -
PN3100
MR ABBOTT: Yes.
PN3101
THE COMMISSIONER: We'll take it that's altered. Thank you.
EXHIBIT #A46(A) FORMERLY MFI A46(A)
MR ABBOTT: A47 is already there. We're now onto A54, which are your notes of the Industrial Relations Consultative Committee meeting
of 30 July 2013?
---That's correct.
PN3103
This is the meeting after the benefit of staff lunches have been removed by the school?---That's correct, yes.
PN3104
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
And the Industrial Relations Consultative Committee meeting was seeking a meeting with the school. Is that right, or vice versa or what?---No, I think this was actually later. This was already after the staff had instructed the IEU to take the matter to - further.
PN3105
Yes, right. I think we see in MFI 55 the typed version. It's, "Recap outcome of FWA conciliation conference"?---Yes.
PN3106
So you've been to this commission?---Well, the conciliation conference didn't involve us.
PN3107
No?---The staff representatives. It was just the union and the school, yes.
PN3108
Now, could you just tell us - up the top of your notes you've written, "Andrew Short, lawyer"?---That's correct. That's just the start of my notes to tell me who he was. He was introduced as the school's lawyer and we were told that Annette Cinnamond would chair and take minutes.
PN3109
And then you've got Anne and Andrew?---Anne and Andrew were invited by Simon to say what they want and to be an active part of the conversation; so Anne and Andrew were not part of the consultative committee and therefore they were invited formally to participate fully in the conversation.
PN3110
And then I think Mr Short said something, and there's a star with a comment with a question mark?---Yes.
PN3111
Could you tell us what Mr Short said and how those words came to be written?
---Yes, that's easy.
PN3112
MR WELLS: Well, excuse me. Can we take a step back. My friend has given the evidence that Mr Short said something. Can we work on the basis that the witness is going to be in a position to tell you what this note is about?
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN3113
MR ABBOTT: Certainly.
PN3114
What is that note about?---No problem. So the meeting started with Mr Short explaining the school's position. He started off with - his first sentence was, "We believe no other school provides meals to their staff." Those notes were my own notes, just in my head, what I was thinking. That's why it says, "No other school - we don't want to be like any other school," which is clear from the staff feeling. From the rhetoric around the school, it's that we're not like any other school. We want to be a great school.
PN3115
Which part is you putting down what's in your head as distinct from making a note of what was actually said?---All of that second point with the star from, "No other school," to, "Saints has never been and will never be the same as other schools," that's all my own note, just for me - - -
PN3116
Made as a response to what?---As a response to the claim that no other school provides meals for its staff.
PN3117
The next part beginning, "School will honour," is that notes of your thoughts or notes that someone said?---No, those are my notes of what Mr Short said.
PN3118
What did Mr Short say?---He said, "The school will honour a commitment if it could be proven - - -"
PN3119
Sorry, what commitment was he talking about?---The commitment towards providing a meal or meals.
PN3120
Yes?---"If it could be proven that meals are part of a staff member's contract or agreement." So this actually was no conversation yet. We were just listening to Mr Short presenting the school's argument.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN3121
Yes, then the next note?---Then Annette Cinnamond said our discussion around that table should be around evidence and there should be an opportunity for staff to present their evidence at the committee - at the consultative committee.
PN3122
If you could go to page 2 of the typed notes, MFI 55, under the heading "(3) Discussion"?---Yes.
PN3123
Is the "AFC" - I'm assuming that to be Ms Cinnamond. Does that generally accord with what you believe was said at that point in time?---Yes. That's correct, yes, when she said it would be appropriate to consider what evidence staff were able - - -
PN3124
Yes?---To prevent - yes.
PN3125
Over to page 2 of your notes. How do they start?---Page 2 starts with Simon saying, "We don't mention meals, as we don't - - -"
PN3126
Simon Murray, that is?---Simon Murray. Sorry, yes. "We don't mention meals as we don't mention car parking." Now, I think that refers - if you look at page 1, at the bottom of the page I wrote, "Contractual arrangements."
PN3127
Right?---In my recollection, there was some clarification as around whether it was in someone's contract - a contractual arrangement - to provide a meal; what does that actually mean?
PN3128
Yes?---And there was some discussion - - -
PN3129
So Simon was talking about contractual arrangements, was he?---That's right. No, in my recollection we asked - the staff asked - it might have been Laurie that asked for some clarification around contractual arrangements. Simon said, "We don't mention meals as we don't mention car parking." This was in reference to the benefits that are available to staff.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN3130
The next - - -?---My next note is my own note.
PN3131
What, of your thoughts?---Of my thoughts. What it says is, "Because he doesn't say it, it doesn't mean that other heads didn't say it." That's my own reference, what I wrote for myself. Because Mr Murray claims that it hadn't been mentioned in any negotiations, which I dispute, my own thought here was that doesn't mean that other heads didn't say this explicitly, but the school was keen to just keep to the current - discussion about the current agreement.
PN3132
The next note is a star with the word "Laurie" something?---Yes. "Laurie presented an email," so he had a printed out email that referred to meals.
PN3133
Well, looking at the bottom of page 2 of the types notes - - -?---Yes.
PN3134
- - - does that appear to be the reference to, "LH referred to an email?" Does appear to be - - -?---That's exactly right.
PN3135
- - - at the same time?---So that corresponds to my notes, yes.
PN3136
Yes?---"Laurie referred to an email between a staff member and another person."
PN3137
Go over to page 3 of the typed notes and try and follow your notes to the typed - let's go back to your notes now?---Yes.
PN3138
Where you've got, "Simon"?---Yes.
PN3139
What did Mr Murray say?---He said, "There are lots of things that can be put on the table during an enterprise bargaining process. Different parties differ in what they present at the table. One then comes to a compromise position. Some get exactly what they want and some don't." This also refers - we were talking about individual discussions between staff and management when they were offered a position, as well. The reference to, "The document has the union's footprint all over it," I can't relate to the typed notes, but that was just an offhand comment made by Mr Murray, yes.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN3140
The next note you've written is what? Is that "Simon"?---Yes, Simon said - Mr Murdoch said, "The meals entitlement has changed over time," and then he corrected himself and said, "No, I shouldn't say 'entitlement'." He said - - -
PN3141
In what context was that said?---That was discussing the meals entitlement. We were discussing the case obviously where staff wanted to bring - the fact that staff were insisting that it is an existing benefit and that it is part of the package that they were offered as their employment, and there was some discussion - and clearly I found it important enough to make a note of this, that it was said that, "The meals entitlement has changed over time," and then the correction, "Oh, I shouldn't say 'entitlement'."
PN3142
MR WELLS: I'm sorry to interrupt my friend again, but - - -
PN3143
MR ABBOTT: I'm used to it.
PN3144
MR WELLS: Well, it's for good reason. I'm anxious to ensure that this doesn't become just a general discussion. What we're trying to do here, I understand, is to identify by reference to the notes what was said.
PN3145
MR ABBOTT: Exactly.
PN3146
MR WELLS: Not what the witness from time to time thought about what was said. In due course, we no doubt will have a discussion about how that's going to be dealt with, but for present purposes our position is that this is a document which is only useful - either in an evidentiary way or in an informative way - for how it assists this witness in being able to recall what was said. When we get to that point, we would be respectfully submitting that what should be coming forward is her best recollection of the words used, not just her current summary of how she would now put it; but what the words were then.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN3147
That's what we're anxious to hear and our respectful submission is that the examination should proceed in that way, particularly as we now know that this has got the witness's own notes - that is, of her thoughts and reactions - in it from time to time, which need to be identified for the purpose of being separated out.
PN3148
MR ABBOTT: Which I've been endeavouring to do and I will continue to endeavour to do.
PN3149
Go back to the statement you've written in your notes about meals entitlement?
---Yes.
PN3150
Whose words were they?---Those were Simon Murray's words.
PN3151
And to the best of your recollection, are they the words exactly that he said?---It looks like the exact words or I wouldn't have written, "No, I shouldn't say 'entitlement'." Yes, those were the exact words.
PN3152
The next note refers to who?---Andrew Short.
PN3153
Yes?---So he - - -
PN3154
What did he say?---He was asking - there should be a written statement.
PN3155
Just pausing there?---Yes.
PN3156
We can find a reference in the typed notes to Andrew Short, about written statements in the sense of members' employment contracts and letter of offer, halfway down page 3. You see, "AS made further comments"?---Yes, I can see it.
PN3157
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
MR WELLS: Sorry, I'm not sure what you're pointing to.
PN3158
MR ABBOTT: I'm pointing to halfway down here.
PN3159
MR WELLS: Yes.
PN3160
MR ABBOTT: Now, what else was said after Andrew Short said there should be a written statement?---What I wrote there is, "What is offered verbally during an interview, the offer is what was agreed to between."
PN3161
Yes?---That's - - -
PN3162
Using that to assist your memory - - -?---Yes.
PN3163
- - - what do you remember about what was said by Mr Short at that time?---What he said was if it wasn't in a written statement, an offer of employment, what is said verbally does not automatically follow through to be an actual offer of a benefit.
PN3164
Onto the next page then, you've got Andrew again?---Yes.
PN3165
On the basis that Andrew is still Andrew Short, what do you remember from reference to your notes that Andrew Short then said?---He was putting the position that the current agreement was being honoured.
PN3166
Yes?---And that the clause in the current agreement, clause 21, referred only to specific benefits negotiated as part of employment - the offer of employment, I think it says. So, in other words, he was saying that if it hadn't been specifically negotiated as part of the offer of employment, it wasn't an actual benefit.
PN3167
And then I think you've got "A"?---Yes.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN3168
To whom does that refer? Could you go to the front of the typed minutes?---Yes.
PN3169
MFI 55?---That "A", I think, refers to Anne Edwards.
PN3170
There are plenty of people with "A"?---Yes.
PN3171
There's Annette Van Rensburg, John Athanasiou - - -?---It's not me.
PN3172
No?---It could have been - I know who - yes, it was John. John Athanasiou.
PN3173
Right?---He said a statement has been made regarding - to the school community regarding the meals being a benefit to the staff.
PN3174
Yes?---And I believe that's why I wrote, "Under whose authority has this statement been made?" which was the comment of Mr Murray.
PN3175
If you go to the typed notes, page 3, down the bottom of page 3 it has got, "JA asked a question." Do you see that dot point there ?---Yes. That's John Athanasiou.
PN3176
Can you remember that type of statement being made by John Athanasiou?---Yes, I do, and I made a note of it actually in my notes. It says, a bit further down, "John: what could the school consider as satisfactory evidence?"
PN3177
Yes, right. So between your notes which say "A's statement," which you said was John Athanasiou raising the issue about a statement - - -?---Yes.
PN3178
You've got Simon - presumably - - -?---Simon Murray, who said, "Under whose authority has a statement been made regarding meals?"
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN3179
Yes?---And then the next statement says, "Back door agreement to get meals introduced into the agreement." I honestly don't recall what that refers to.
PN3180
Or who said it?---Or who said it.
PN3181
Right?---It clearly was said or I wouldn't have written it down.
PN3182
And then John - - -?---And John Athanasiou said, "What would the school consider as satisfactory evidence?" Actually the next line, "School will consider and honour substantial evidence," was the answer to his question.
PN3183
By whom?---By, I think it was, Andrew Short.
PN3184
So, "The school will consider and honour substantial evidence," yes?---Yes.
PN3185
And then you've got, "Andrew"?---And then he continued to say, "Verbal evidence would not necessarily be discounted." As I recall, that was in response to someone else - and I don't recall who - saying, "What would substantial evidence be?"
PN3186
Yes?---And, "Could that include verbal evidence?" The answer was, "Verbal evidence would not necessarily be discounted."
PN3187
At the bottom of page 3 of the notes there appears to be something that at first blush might appear to be in conflict with what you've recorded.
PN3188
MR WELLS: Page 3 of the - - -
PN3189
MR ABBOTT: Typed notes, MFI 55.
PN3190
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
These notes record, "Anne Edwards also asked what evidence would be required." Do you see that?---Yes.
PN3191
And Mr Short responded by saying, "We'd want to see something in writing"?---I wouldn't have written something that wasn't said. That would be silly. So the fact that it's not reflected in the minutes, doesn't mean it wasn't said.
PN3192
Then Ms Edwards appears to have said in the minutes, "Our position is supported by the verbal evidence we are providing." Mr Short responded by saying, "We'd still want to see what other evidence that you have and that it be presented to this forum as part of the process." Do you remember something along those lines being said?---Yes. I think that's where my note - where I said, "Andrew said verbal would not necessarily be discounted."
PN3193
Yes?---I reckon that fits in with that moment there.
PN3194
Yes. Your next note in your notes?---Yes.
PN3195
"Some people"?---"Will have their lunches if they can provide evidence."
PN3196
And the next note?---"Others will not get it without arbitration."
PN3197
Who said words to the effect, "Some people will have their lunches if they can provide evidence, while others won't get it without arbitration"?
PN3198
MR WELLS: That's not what it - there are two separate sentences.
PN3199
MR ABBOTT: All right. I'll deal with it sentence by sentence.
PN3200
Is it your recollection that someone said, "Some people will have their lunches if they can provide evidence"?---Yes, it is my recollection. That was said.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN3201
And who said that?---In my recollection, it was Mr Short that said that in answer to a question that one of our team put to him; could we envisage a situation where some people would be getting lunches and others not should this matter proceed? The answer was, "Some people will have their lunches if they can provide the evidence."
PN3202
Your next comment in your notes, what does that refer to?---That says, "Others will not get it without arbitration." What that meant was if someone could come forward - - -
PN3203
Sorry, who said what?---So Mr Short - - -
PN3204
Using your notes to assist your memory?---Yes. Mr Short said that some might get their - well, in my notes, will get their lunches if they could provide the evidence; if it's substantive evidence. Others might have to go to arbitration if the evidence wasn't immediately obvious that it was - in other words, in black and white writing in a letter saying, "Your lunches are part of what's offered."
PN3205
Over the page, just looking at your handwritten notes and refreshing your memory from those, what does that tell you was said?---There was some question put to the meeting as to whether custom and usage was an argument that would be a valid argument. To say that custom and usage, because it has been a custom for probably more than a hundred years that we had meals - whether that's an actual legal argument.
PN3206
Just pausing there?---Yes.
PN3207
Go to page 4 of MFI 55?---Yes.
PN3208
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
A third of the way down, "LH provided further comments." Look at the last dot point under that, "Staff consider - - -"?---Yes, okay.
PN3209
Are you able to - - -?---So that would have been Laurie Humphreys that made that comment, yes. Where it says "custom and practice" in the typed notes, that's the same as I've written "custom and usage".
PN3210
"Custom and usage", right. Then after "custom and usage", you've got what? "Andrew - - -"?---I said, "Andrew comments that the argument considers the offer," then I wrote, "Obligation." What that refers to is if an offer was made to a staff member - - -
PN3211
MR WELLS: Sorry, I have to interrupt. I need to understand whether what's happening at the moment is recounting something said or whether this is now something more than that; namely, this witness's response, reaction to, interpretation of. We're really only concentrating on what was said.
PN3212
MR ABBOTT: Yes?---This is what was said in the meeting.
PN3213
Tell us what was said then, please?---So Andrew Short commented that the arguments that needed to be put forward would consider - if an offer was made to the staff member and substantive and in writing - that it would be the obligation of the school to provide that meal.
PN3214
What do you recall was then said?---Then I've got a note there that says, "Simon," so Simon Murray said - what I wrote was, "Council. I am not the one who signs off. There are some on the council who want to know whether staff are appropriately remunerated."
PN3215
There's a point of reference to that, I think, in the typed notes?---Yes, that's right.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN3216
MFI 55, at the bottom of page 4?---That's right, so that's what that refers to. My notes are very short - - -
PN3217
That's about six lines from the bottom?---That's right.
PN3218
And the typed notes, "Council want staff to be well remunerated and supported in their work"?---That's right. I think the point - what I saw Simon saying is that council are very conscious of the fact that they want to remunerate and reward staff well who work at the school.
PN3219
Thereafter, was there a discussion - well, you tell us what the discussion was, using your notes to assist your memory, please?---This is Simon Murray that was referring to the fact that the council were of the opinion that staff at St Peter's were very well remunerated; that the package they were provided with was very competitive compared to other schools, both in similar schools and in different sectors.
PN3220
Yes?---But that the school are mindful - the council are mindful of the future operations of the school and they had to look at how money could be saved in terms of supporting the operations of the school. This came down as - it was trying to explain to us what the reasoning was behind removing the lunches, in other words. The consideration of operating costs.
PN3221
Then I think there were other things said by Mr Murray that you've written down here?---Well, how can the school save money by cutting on catering and printing costs, et cetera. The catering referring, obviously, to the meals.
PN3222
Go over to the last page of your notes, please. What was said towards the end of the meeting?---So there's a note, "We organise a meeting to report back."
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN3223
Yes?---And then, "Andrew would say," is what I - - -
PN3224
Who is Andrew?---Andrew Short.
PN3225
Yes?---The lawyer - "It would be sensible to provide further discussion and evidence, and more concrete evidence." So this was referring to we needed to come back to another meeting where more concrete evidence was provided, so that the school could see what evidence staff had in taking this matter forward.
PN3226
If you go to page 5, you'll see the last ASM comment on that page is a reference to concrete evidence?---Where it says, "Actions going forward - - -"
PN3227
I'm sorry, no. Above, "Actions going forward." The last ASM responding, there's something - - -?---Yes, I see.
PN3228
That's Mr Murray?---"There are examples, but would need to have more detailed descriptions; who was involved in the exchange, which authority they had and more concrete evidence for us to pursue that."
PN3229
I'm asking you whether you can now recall - - -?---Right.
PN3230
In your notes you've got "more concrete evidence"?---Yes.
PN3231
Could that have been said by Mr Murray?---It could have been, yes. It's not necessarily part of the two lines above it, yes.
PN3232
Did you notice whether Mr Short was making any notes of what was going on in this meeting?---I did not notice, no. I didn't pay attention to that.
PN3233
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
What about Mr Murray or Ms Cinnamond?---Ms Cinnamond was definitely making notes because she was the minute taker. I do recall Mr Murray taking notes, because he has a very specific beautiful little notebook that I recall seeing and I thought, oh, that's just lovely.
PN3234
Like the notebook he's holding up in his hand?---Yes.
PN3235
I call for Mr Murray's notes and for Ms Cinnamond's notes of this meeting. I don't ask that they be produced. I merely make the call so that if something arises out of it, I don't want it to be said I haven't asked for them.
PN3236
THE COMMISSIONER: So you're asking for Mr Murray's notes and - - -
PN3237
MR ABBOTT: Ms Cinnamond's notes of this meeting.
PN3238
THE COMMISSIONER: - - - Ms Cinnamond's notes.
PN3239
MR ABBOTT: I have no further questions.
PN3240
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wells, do you have any response to the call for the notes?
PN3241
MR WELLS: No, I don't.
PN3242
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Abbott, we had A54 as an MFI.
PN3243
MR SPRIGGS: Sorry, I tender A54 - - -
PN3244
THE COMMISSIONER: A54 is to be amended, Mr Wells, or have you got issues with that?
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN3245
MR ABBOTT: MFI 55 and 54.
PN3246
THE COMMISSIONER: A55 is already an exhibit.
PN3247
MR ABBOTT: 55 is already an exhibit?
PN3248
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN3249
MR ABBOTT: Thank you.
PN3250
THE COMMISSIONER: A54 was an MFI.
PN3251
MR ABBOTT: Yes, I apply to tender A54; my witness's notes of the meeting of 30 July.
PN3252
MR WELLS: Well, they can only be notes so far as they extend to what was said.
PN3253
MR ABBOTT: I agree with that. I'm not asking - - -
PN3254
MR WELLS: We can't physically exclude them, but we wouldn't accede to their being admitted for any other purpose than that.
PN3255
THE COMMISSIONER: I think we're seeing the purpose demonstrated by the transcript.
PN3256
MR WELLS: Yes. Thank you.
PN3257
THE COMMISSIONER: We'll amend those.
EXHIBIT #A54 FORMERLY MFI A54
PN3258
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wells is going to cross-examine you.
PN3259
MR WELLS: Well, Commissioner, I don't think I'm in a position to really do that now. I propose that we do it first thing in the morning.
PN3260
THE COMMISSIONER: Does that present any problems for yourself as a witness?---Personally, yes, because I've got a university lecture tomorrow morning. I could try and get out of it, but I wouldn't want to.
PN3261
You may be required for other than a short period?---Yes.
PN3262
Because we've got six documents that you've provided, plus your witness statement. Mr Wells has a right to examine your evidence?---Yes. That's fair enough.
PN3263
MR WELLS: I think I would have to say that we will be a little while. I'm sorry - - -?---That's okay.
PN3264
- - - but we're at a stage I think now where it wouldn't be very useful for me to embark on it. We won't get anywhere near finished. It may be that the way forward is to seek where the witness is in a position to come back and we'd be perfectly happy for another witness to be interposed in the meantime.
PN3265
MR ABBOTT: We can do that, if that's more convenient. Could I just ask the witness when - - -
PN3266
THE COMMISSIONER: Certainly.
PN3267
MR ABBOTT: Can you tell us when it might be more convenient? Tomorrow or - - -?---Well, I've got a lecture until 1 o'clock and then it will take probably about an hour to drive from Mawson Lakes and find parking and so on. After 2.00.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
PN3268
THE COMMISSIONER: After 2.00?---Is that enough time?
PN3269
MR ABBOTT: Yes, that would be - - -
PN3270
THE COMMISSIONER: So in the p.m?
PN3271
MR ABBOTT: Yes. If you could let us know your likely ETA when you're on the road perhaps - - -?---As soon as I leave there, I'll send a message.
PN3272
Thank you?---Thank you.
PN3273
Could the witness be stood down and then we'll call another witness tomorrow morning.
PN3274
THE COMMISSIONER: You're stood down?---Okay.
PN3275
I have to indicate that you shouldn't be discussing your evidence with other parties?---Yes.
PN3276
MR ABBOTT: The witnesses we propose to call tomorrow morning are Ms Castrichini-Sutton, Mr Harris and Ms Jackson. The order has changed because we have had some witnesses waiting around all day. I say that not in any critical way, but we'd like to get them finished because they've been waiting for a while rather than witnesses who haven't been waiting.
PN3277
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Ms Van Rensburg. You can go and you're released until tomorrow?---Thank you.
PN3278
We'll negotiate the time with you, but it should be after 2.00?---Yes.
**** ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG XN MR ABBOTT
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [4.31PM]
PN3280
MR ABBOTT: I was in error. I've been told by my instructing solicitor Ms McCauley first, Ms Castrichini-Sutton, Mr Harris, Ms Jackson - or so many of them as we get through tomorrow morning.
PN3281
THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. Are there any issues that we know about at the moment in respect to documentation that may be forthcoming?
PN3282
MR ABBOTT: No, sir. None that I know about and I've asked the questions to be asked. We've now got a visible set of Ms Castrichini-Sutton's notes, the originals of which are with you. She'll be referring to her notes, but we've all got copies of them now that we can all read.
PN3283
THE COMMISSIONER: So Mr Wells has got the copies?
PN3284
MR ABBOTT: Yes.
PN3285
THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. So we're all set to go in the morning?
PN3286
MR ABBOTT: Yes.
PN3287
THE COMMISSIONER: Any issues, Mr Wells?
PN3288
MR WELLS: Just as long as the order doesn't change overnight, that's all.
PN3289
MR ABBOTT: If it changes, it will only be through personal circumstances of the witnesses and I'll let my friend know; but that's the order as at present advised. If I hear any different, he'll be the first to know. Could I mention the resumed hearing date? I don't know whether you, Commissioner, have had an opportunity to inspect your diary, but we have with your associate looked at the week of 22 September, I think.
PN3290
DISCUSSION RE SUITABLE DATE
PN3291
THE COMMISSIONER: This matter is adjourned until 10 am.
<ADJOURNED UNTIL THURSDAY, 21 AUGUST 2014 [4.34PM]
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs
MFI #A22 SECOND STANDARD PROCEDURES DOCUMENT PN2208
WENDY GAYE DIMONTE, SWORN PN2222
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR ABBOTT PN2225
EXHIBIT #A23 STATEMENT OF MS DIMONTE SIGNED 01/04/2014 PN2233
EXHIBIT #A24 MS DIMONTE'S LETTER OF OFFER DATED 17/03/2003 AND RESPONSE DATED 19/03/2003 PN2258
EXHIBIT #A25 PAGE FROM JUNIOR SCHOOL HANDBOOK PN2284
EXHIBIT #A26 JUNIOR SCHOOL HANDBOOK VERSION 27/08/2013 PN2304
MFI #A27 DELEGATE WELCOME PACKAGE; POSITIVE EDUCATION CONFERENCE SKILLS OVERVIEW; ST PETER'S COLLEGE STAFF BENEFITS DOCUMENT PN2319
EXHIBIT #A28 EMAIL FROM HEADMASTER DATED 04/05/2012 PN2330
EXHIBIT #A29 INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS CONSULTATIVE COMMITTEE MEETING OF 31/05/2013 PN2336
EXHIBIT #A30 EMAIL FROM JASON HASELDINE TO ALL STAFF DATED 06/06/2013 PN2341
EXHIBIT #A31 EMAIL FROM WENDY DIMONTE TO JASON HASELDINE DATED 06/06/2013 PN2350
EXHIBIT #A32 DOCUMENT CONTAINING STAFF NAMES AND SIGNATURES DATED 15/08/2014 PN2411
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WELLS PN2415
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN2444
ANNETTE VAN RENSBURG, SWORN PN2466
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR ABBOTT PN2469
EXHIBIT #A33 STATEMENT OF MS VAN RENSBURG PN2480
EXHIBIT #A34 LETTER OF OFFER TO MS VAN RENSBURG PN2494
MFI #A35 MINUTES OF ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 29/07/2008 PN2604
MFI #A36 AGENDA FOR ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 23/09/2008 PLUS ATTACHED NOTES PN2611
MFI #A37 AGENDA AND MINUTES OF ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 23/09/2011 PLUS NOTES PN2634
EXHIBIT #A38 MINUTES OF ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 10/08/2011 PLUS LOG OF CLAIMS PN2658
EXHIBIT #A39 MINUTES OF ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 23/09/2011 PN2674
EXHIBIT #A40 MINUTES OF ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 02/11/2011 PN2680
EXHIBIT #A41 MINUTES OF ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 16/11/2011 PN2685
EXHIBIT #A42 MINUTES OF ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 30/11/2011 PN2689
MFI #A43 MINUTES OF ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 14/12/2011 PN2704
EXHIBIT #A44 MINUTES OF ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 3/02/2012 PN2707
EXHIBIT #A45 MINUTES OF ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 23/02/2012 PN2710
EXHIBIT #A46 AGENDA FOR ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 22/03/2012 PN2714
EXHIBIT #A47 MINUTES OF ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 22/03/2012 PN2718
MFI #A45(A) AGENDA FOR ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 23/02/2012 PLUS NOTES PN2731
MFI #A46(A) AGENDA FOR ENTERPRISE BARGAINING MEETING OF 22/03/2012 PLUS NOTES PN2741
MFI #A48 EMAIL FROM SIMON MURRAY DATED 21/11/2012 PLUS DOCUMENT ENTITLED ENTERPRISE AGREEMENT 2012 PN2758
EXHIBIT #A49 EMAIL FROM LAURIE HUMPHREYS PN2764
EXHIBIT #A50 DOCUMENT RE ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF BALLOT PN2767
EXHIBIT #A51 EMAIL PN2797
EXHIBIT #A52 LETTER FROM MR HUMPHREYS DATED 16/07/2013 PN2803
EXHIBIT #A53 LETTER FROM JAMES HARVEY DATED 16/07/2013 PN2807
MFI #A54 NOTES OF MEETING OF 30/07/2013 PN2855
EXHIBIT #A55 MINUTES OF MEETING OF 30/07/2013 PN2856
EXHIBIT #A35 FORMERLY MFI A35 PN2881
EXHIBIT #A36 FORMERLY MFI A36 PN2887
EXHIBIT #A37 FORMERLY MFI A37 PN2933
EXHIBIT #45(A) FORMERLY MFI A45(A) PN2936
EXHIBIT #A46(A) FORMERLY MFI A46(A) PN3102
EXHIBIT #A54 FORMERLY MFI A54 PN3258
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN3279
AustLII:
Copyright Policy
|
Disclaimers
|
Privacy Policy
|
Feedback
URL: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/FWCTrans/2014/510.html