|
|
Home
| Databases
| WorldLII
| Search
| Feedback
Fair Work Commission Transcripts |
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Fair Work Act 2009 1051216-1
Deputy President Bartel
C2014/6393
s.739 - Application to deal with a dispute
Communications, Electrical, Electronic, Energy, Information, Postal, Plumbing and Allied Services Union of Australia
and
Utilities Management Pty Ltd T/A SA Power Networks
(C2014/6393)
Utilities Management Pty Ltd Enterprise Agreement 2014
(ODN AG2014/5849)
[AE408214 Print PR550775]
Adelaide
10.06AM, MONDAY, 22 DECEMBER 2014
Adjourned until 23/12/2014
PN1
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, I'll take appearances.
PN2
MR G. NOBLE: Noble, initial G for the CEPU.
PN3
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Noble. Thank you.
PN4
MR NOBLE: And with me is MISS J. ROGERS.
PN5
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.
PN6
MR A. MANOS: If the Commission pleases, Manos initial A, and I seek leave to appear on behalf of the employer.
PN7
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Manos, leave to appear has been granted.
PN8
MR MANOS: Thank you.
PN9
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So that's fine. Now are there any matters that we need to attend to before we commence today?
PN10
MR MANOS: There might just be one matter I'll raise now, your Honour, which is the employer's witnesses. I have three witnesses organised for today.
PN11
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN12
MR MANOS: And I had two witnesses organised for tomorrow morning, and I've advised my friend of that. Unfortunately I'm unable to bring those two witnesses forward today, which might mean an early finish today depending on how we progress. But I just thought I'd flag that up for the Commission.
PN13
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks Mr Manos. Yes, Mr Noble?
PN14
MR NOBLE: Your Honour - it is your Honour, isn't it? I know certain Deputy Presidents - - -
PN15
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy President is fine.
PN16
MR NOBLE: - - - under different - - -
PN17
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't think I'm quite as elevated as your Honour.
PN18
MR NOBLE: Right, I'm advised by my friend, Mr Manos, that he's not going to require John Adley for any cross-examination.
PN19
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN20
MR NOBLE: So can we just take his evidence as tendered?
PN21
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I'll just find it. So no objection to that being admitted?
PN22
MR MANOS: There's no objection to that statement and I don't require Mr Adley for cross-examination. From my perspective, your Honour, I don't require him to hop into the witness box and swear it in. I'm happy for his evidence to be taken as it is in the statement.
PN23
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good. Thank you. Yes, the witness statement of John Adley with five attachments will be marked exhibit CEPU 1.
EXHIBIT #CEPU1 WITNESS STATEMENT OF JOHN ADLEY WITH FIVE ATTACHMENTS
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you?
PN25
MR NOBLE: I would like to call Andrew Peter Nagel for the CEPU.
PN26
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Thank you.
<ANDREW PETER NAGEL, SWORN [10.09AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR NOBLE [10.09AM]
MR NOBLE: Mr Nagel, I have the original statement that you swore and also a note from your (indistinct). Can you just have a look at that and verify that is in fact your statement?---Yes, that's correct. That is my statement.
PN28
I only have one additional question to ask of you and that is have you heard over the last 10 years or so about any discussions about introducing night shifts in the CBD?---No, I have not.
PN29
You haven't. now before we tender that is there anything you would like to add or clarify in your statement?---Well, in the time of my employment with this company the only shift I have known about is a afternoon shift from three till 11.30, which in my statement I have previously worked. And that to me was the only shift I could be deemed to work other than my normal hours of traditionally seven till 3.30.
PN30
Okay, thank you.
PN31
Your Honour, I would like to tender the statement.
PN32
MR MANOS: No objections.
PN33
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, the statement of Peter Nagel with one attachment is marked exhibit CEPU 2.
EXHIBIT #CEPU2 WITNESS STATEMENT OF PETER NAGEL WITH ONE ATTACHMENT
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Thanks Mr Manos.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MANOS [10.11AM]
PN35
**** ANDREW PETER NAGEL XXN MR MANOS
MR MANOS: The overtime that you work with your employer arises in two ways, doesn't it? It can be planned or it can be unplanned?---Correct.
PN36
If it's unplanned doesn't it arise from an employee being listed on the availability roster?---Yes, on the availability roster, that's correct. Like I said, our normal day is seven till 3.30 and at the moment there's a one in six week rotation where we're on availability, that we could be called back from 3.30 till seven in the morning.
PN37
The work that's performed on the planned - that's planned overtime is work that's normally performed at 8 pm, it starts at 8 pm or later?---It can vary depending on the type of work. You could start anywhere from five, six in the afternoon or seven, eight, nine, 10 o'clock at night.
PN38
It mostly starts at 8 pm or later?---Around those times, yes.
PN39
It mostly starts at 8 pm or later?---Yes.
PN40
The reason why that planned overtime needs to occur is because there's certain work that can only be performed at night in the CBD?---Under direction from our company with - it's - it can be, yes, and it would ageing assets. It can only be performed out of hours.
PN41
And the employer can require you to work reasonable overtime can't it?---In our enterprise agreement it requires, but I have never been forced to work overtime by the company. I've worked overtime when I have been available with my personal circumstances out of hours to work overtime.
PN42
You've always volunteered to work overtime?---Not always.
PN43
You've never been directed to work overtime but you accept, do you, that the employer has the right to direct you to work overtime?---They have in - under our enterprise agreement as far as I'm aware they can direct us to work overtime providing I don't have personal commitments outside of work.
**** ANDREW PETER NAGEL XXN MR MANOS
PN44
You understand that there is no ongoing right to overtime?---Correct.
PN45
That it's discretionary?---If it's required and I'm asked, yes, I - and I'm available, I will do the overtime.
PN46
So overtime is at the discretion of the employer?---Correct.
PN47
If the employer was to not require you or request that you work overtime that would result in a reduction in your take-home pay wouldn't it?---If I make myself available and am willing to work that overtime it would.
PN48
Well, if the employer didn't require you to work any overtime then it would result in you having less take-home pay wouldn't it?---Correct.
PN49
And that might occur whether the new roster is implemented or not?---It could, yes.
PN50
And in that situation - you've said in your statement that because of the new proposed shift roster that this might result in reduced take-home pay for you, and your wife will have to seek additional employment in order for you to maintain your household income. That might also occur if the employer decided not to offer you additional overtime under the current arrangements, mightn't it?---Correct.
PN51
Can the witness please be shown this document? Is your job description TSW8, a works coordinator?---Correct.
PN52
The document that I've got before you is a job description. Are you familiar with this document?---I have read it, yes.
**** ANDREW PETER NAGEL XXN MR MANOS
PN53
Is this the document that applies to your current role?---Under my current role this - under the indicative parts this job description does apply for me, yes.
PN54
Can you just turn to the back page at C2 and read the second dot point?---It's - sorry, on the back.
PN55
So it's on the last page?---The last page, sorry. "May require" - well this is, "Other factors relevant to my position. May require 'availability / shift duties' depending on operational requirements at my work location".
PN56
Do you accept that in your position description it contemplates that you may be required to perform shift work?---I was under the interpretation of my only shift I could be made to work was three till 11.30, which is the current shift for a power line worker in this company.
PN57
You understand that your position description may require you to work shift work?---Afternoon shift, to my understanding.
PN58
Well, does it say afternoon shift in the position description?---No.
PN59
When you were provided with this position description no one ever said to you that - explained to you that shift work just means afternoon shift, did they?---No one explained to me that shift work could also mean working eight till 4.30 at night either.
PN60
I tender this job description.
PN61
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. No objection, Mr Noble?
PN62
MR NOBLE: No, your Honour.
**** ANDREW PETER NAGEL XXN MR MANOS
PN63
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The job description for works coordinator will be marked SAPN 1.
EXHIBIT #SAPN1 JOB DESCRIPTION FOR A WORKS COORDINATOR
MR MANOS: And you don't have a written employment contract, do you?---No.
PN65
In the financial year ending 30 June 2014, so I'm talking about the period 1 July 2013 through to 30 June 2014, you worked a significant
amount of overtime?
---Correct.
PN66
Both planned and unplanned overtime?---Correct.
PN67
And the reason you worked the unplanned overtime was because you were on the availability roster for most or all of that year?---All of that year, correct.
PN68
Can the witness please be shown the witness statement of Adrian Gallina. I may have a working copy, your Honour, if you only have one - yes, I do.
PN69
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You do?.
PN70
MR MANOS: Perhaps if the witness could be shown this statement. Could I please ask you to turn to AG1?---Sorry?
PN71
You will just see on the side there - - -?---This little - - -
PN72
- - - Mr Nagel there's AG1?---Yes.
PN73
In fact perhaps turn to AG2 and now there's a number of documents there, and unfortunately it's not paginated but if you move through, round about 20 pages in there's a table with your name on it at the top. You'll see that they're actually in alphabetical order, the names that are listed there?---Sorry, I've got AG2. AG2 represents the employment contract.
**** ANDREW PETER NAGEL XXN MR MANOS
PN74
Sorry, perhaps it is AG1?---This graph here?
PN75
Yes, that's the one?---Yes, got it.
PN76
So this is a table which sets out the overtime that you worked in the last financial year?---I'd have to confirm that. That's just what's been put in front of me.
PN77
Yes, well just assume that that's the case for now. You will see on the left-hand side you've got - by month you've got the normal hours that you worked for in the first column, "July 2013". You've then got the overtime, the number of overtime hours you worked, and then below that there's planned and unplanned overtime broken down?---Yes.
PN78
And if you add up the planned and unplanned overtime that equals the number in the overtime row, and then below that in bold there's the number of hours that you were stood down. Stand down hours are hours in which you are paid, aren't they, but which you don't actually work?---Under our enterprise agreement with our rest periods, they are the - once we finish a shift we - under the agreement a 10 hour continuous break before we can be expected to report back for work.
PN79
So they're hours that you're paid for but which you don't actually work?---Under the agreement, yes.
PN80
So in July 2013 you worked 41 hours overtime, do you see that?---Yes.
PN81
Sorry, if I just take a step back from this table. Under the proposed roster arrangement is it your understanding, Mr Nagel, that what's being proposed is that you will be required to work three night shifts, three consecutive night shifts over a four week period?---Over the proposed roster?
**** ANDREW PETER NAGEL XXN MR MANOS
PN82
Yes?---Yes.
PN83
With each of those shifts being eight hours in duration?---Under the proposal, yes.
PN84
And on a Sunday you'd be required to work for eight hours as well?---During the - well, at this stage they're saying during the day. Yes.
PN85
During the day, and that that will - the frequency of the Sunday shift will be once every four weeks?---On the proposed roster, yes.
PN86
And if that proposed roster is implemented that means you will work 32 hours in a four week period outside of the current day shifts that you're working and you'll continue to work under the new roster?---Sorry, can you rephrase that?
PN87
Yes. So there will be four shifts, the Monday - there will be the Sunday shift and then there will be the night shift on the Monday to Wednesday?---Correct.
PN88
Four shifts in total every four weeks that you would be working outside of the 7 am to 3.30 shift, which is your current day shift?---Correct.
PN89
That equals 32 hours?---Yes.
PN90
Four times over 32?---Yes.
PN91
Outside of those four shifts you'll be working the same hours effectively that you are currently working?---Correct.
PN92
You'd be working Monday to Friday 7 am to - - -?---Traditionally I don't work - I've never really worked Sundays so that - to me I was employed as a Monday to Friday employee and Sunday has a dramatic impact of my personal and family life.
**** ANDREW PETER NAGEL XXN MR MANOS
PN93
Yes, Mr Nagel, I'm just asking you - I'm just focusing on - - -?---The hours.
PN94
- - - the hours you're going to be working under the proposed roster?---To make up our - under our EB our 36 hour week.
PN95
So is it your understanding that under the proposed roster that you'll be working what I might call 32 hours, 32 unsociable hours, the Sunday and the Monday to Wednesday shift work?---Would be deemed to be unsociable, correct.
PN96
That might be one term for it. So you'll see in July 2013, the last financial year, you worked 41 hours overtime?---Correct.
PN97
And 30 of that was planned overtime?---Correct.
PN98
So that would have been work that you would have performed most likely beginning after 8 pm at night?---Correct.
PN99
August 2013 you worked 38 hours overtime including 24 planned?---Correct.
PN100
September, 21 hours including 17 hours planned?---Correct.
PN101
October you worked 42 hours including 29 hours planned?---Correct.
PN102
November, 38 hours with 20 hours planned?---Sorry, that was when? Yes?
PN103
November 2013?---Well, as per these statements. I would have to confirm those, but what's written in front of me, correct.
PN104
December 2013 you worked 35 hours overtime and seven of those were planned?
---Correct.
**** ANDREW PETER NAGEL XXN MR MANOS
PN105
January 2014, 39 hours overtime and three planned?---As per the figures in front of me, correct.
PN106
February 2014, 29 hours overtime and 21 planned?---Correct.
PN107
And March 2014, 39 hours overtime and 30 planned?---Correct.
PN108
April 2014, 23 hours overtime, 17 of which was planned?---Correct.
PN109
May 2014, 32 hours overtime, 11 planned?---Correct.
PN110
June 2014, 20 hours overtime of which 20 was planned?---As per the figures in front of me.
PN111
So nine of the 12 months in that period you actually worked more than 32 hours outside your ordinary hours?---Obviously I was willing to do it and didn't have personal circumstances through those months.
PN112
So what's being proposed under the new roster is actually not really that different from what you worked in the last financial year, is it?---It is because I had the choice to work those hours. Under this new agreement I don't have a choice, I'm being directed to.
PN113
In terms of the actual hours worked though, putting choice aside, the actual hours that are being proposed that you work aren't that different from what you worked for the last financial year, are they?---The hours themselves, but I have had a choice to work those hours. Under the new arrangement I have no choice.
PN114
Well, what has choice got to do with impact on your health and safety?---I don't - I - if you look through my record there would be - I would work maybe one or occasionally two nights. I never work three because I am too tired for those long -for those - for three nights in a row.
**** ANDREW PETER NAGEL XXN MR MANOS
PN115
So your comments about safety are purely based on the fact that you'll have to work three nights in a row?---Safe - to me safety with prolonged hours of night work would be detrimental to the workforce.
PN116
So it's purely based on the fact that you'd be working three nights in a row?---If people have had enough rest and prepared themselves to work of nights which is voluntary.
PN117
Do you accept though that nine of the 12 months in the last financial year you actually worked more overtime than what's being proposed under the new roster arrangement, so your concerns about self - health and safety - - -?---But if you look at the times that - - -
PN118
- - - which have - just let me finish the question a second, Mr Nagel. Your concerns about health and safety really aren't well founded at all, are they?---For three nights prolonged they are, because most of these - if you go through day by day the hours I worked you would find there was only maybe one or occasionally two nights in a row that were worked. And I can cope with those hours at night but three I can - I've - occasionally when there has been three nights' work the guys are that tired, and in certain circumstances another person in my position has sent guys home because they were tired.
PN119
Are you rostered to work night shift tonight?---In Rundle Mall, yes.
PN120
And tomorrow night?---Correct.
PN121
And Wednesday night?---No.
PN122
You're not rostered to work night shift tomorrow night?---Tomorrow night - - -
**** ANDREW PETER NAGEL XXN MR MANOS
PN123
Sorry, pardon me?---- - - but not Wednesday night.
PN124
Wednesday night?---I am on availability Wednesday night and I'm currently on availability now.
PN125
So potentially if you were called in to work on Wednesday you might work three consecutive nights in a row?---That would be on a breakdown situation.
PN126
So the sleep loss that you talk about in your statement that you'll be experiencing under the new roster is really no different from what you experienced in the last financial year, is it?---On different occasions I've - like I said, I've stated, I have work maybe one and occasionally two nights so my sleep patterns would be completely different over that - the proposed roster.
PN127
Well, they're completely different only in that you might have to work three nights in a row instead of one or two, isn't it?---Because I have to work three, it will change my sleep, yes.
PN128
And in many of those months you actually worked more than the 32 hours a month you will under the new roster?---But not three nights in a row.
PN129
I see. That's the big factor to you, is it, the three nights in a row?---And being forced to do it where I have no choice.
PN130
Well, being forced to do it doesn't actually affect your lack of sleep, does it?
---Well if we're forced - if I have to work three nights it will.
PN131
Yes, but just being forced to work night shift doesn't actually affect your fatigue levels, does it?---Well, I have never traditionally worked three nights in a row so I don't know.
**** ANDREW PETER NAGEL XXN MR MANOS
PN132
I'm not talking about the three nights in a row, Mr Nagel. I'm talking about the fact that you're being compelled to actually work these hours. That has got nothing to do with your fatigue levels, has it?---Well, I don't know. I haven't worked those three nights because I've never done a prolonged roster with having to work three nights.
PN133
Well, why don't you just think about it? Can you think of any reason why being compelled to work these hours might affect your fatigue levels?---I have two young kids that come home from school at 3 o'clock. The optimum time - like, if you were a day worker your optimum time for sleeping is around 10 o'clock at night till 6 o'clock in the morning where everyone in your household is sleeping and it's quiet. Trying to get enough sleep, eight hours before you come to work, if you're starting the proposed 8 o'clock on the roster, and in my house - personal household as I've got two young kids that are coming home from school; and for me to get that hours - those hours sleep three nights in a row, I am - think you'll find it difficult.
PN134
Mr Nagel, just listen to the question. I'm just asking you about whether being compelled by your employer to work these hours is going to impact on your fatigue levels in any way?---It may.
PN135
MR NOBLE: Your Honour, the question has been put about four or five times now. I think we've got an adequate response.
PN136
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I'm not sure - I think Mr Nagel has answered the question that you put. Whether you want to rephrase the question but you've asked whether the roster will impact on his fatigue levels and he said that he believes it will because of the three nights.
PN137
MR MANOS: Yes, but he's also - yes, well I'll leave it there, your Honour. I'll leave it for submissions.
**** ANDREW PETER NAGEL XXN MR MANOS
PN138
One of your main concerns, Mr Nagel, under the proposed roster arrangement is that you might end up with less take-home pay, isn't it?---I possibly could.
PN139
Isn't that one of your main concerns?---If I worked seven till 3.30 for the rest of my working life, it's not going to worry me.
PN140
Isn't that one of your main concerns though?---I will go home with less take-home pay. It is a slight concern but I can vary my lifestyle to live within my means.
PN141
Thank you. No further questions.
PN142
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Just before you re-examine.
PN143
Mr Nagel, this may be in some of the other witness statements, but how much notice do you get of the planned overtime?---That varies, your Honour. It could be one week, two weeks. Traditionally when we have overtime planned there is a like a board in our office, the job goes up, amount of - like guys required, two, three or four and by voluntary the employees put their name up.
PN144
Okay?---And sometimes it is short notice and we might have to ask two or three different people with their personal commitments if they can be available.
PN145
And what would you call short notice?---It could be the day before.
PN146
Okay, and the planned overtime is always Monday to Friday?---Sometimes occasionally, customer-driven, it could be a Sunday night.
PN147
Okay?---And customer-driven too, we could also be on - buildings have a major shut down and want to do work on their infrastructure, they apply for a permit which we then accommodate with volunteers. That could be any - Monday to Sunday. It could be Saturday, any time.
**** ANDREW PETER NAGEL XN
PN148
And could it be day work on the weekend?---Yes.
PN149
Yes?---It could be day work. It's customer-driven with businesses in the CBD.
PN150
Yes?---But they pay for that service from our company to be supplied with that.
PN151
Good. Thank you?---Thanks.
PN152
Anything arising out of that?
PN153
MR MANOS: No. Thank you, your Honour.
PN154
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Noble?
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NOBLE [10.33AM]
MR NOBLE: Yes, just a couple of questions, your Honour.
PN156
Just briefly, what's your understanding of the purpose of stand down?---Stand down is a rest period under the enterprise bargaining agreement to have my appropriate rest to be fit for work.
PN157
Okay, and why would you be working unplanned overtime?---Unplanned?
PN158
Yes?---It would be due to faults or breakdowns.
PN159
The roster that they're proposing, do you know whether or not it includes any availability roster for you personally?---Not for me personally. I mean, currently I - on our standby roster I might be referred to as a duty officer which oversees the working crew out of hours, and if they have any problems then that's when they contact me for assistance. Under the new roster I've been removed from those duties.
**** ANDREW PETER NAGEL RXN MR NOBLE
PN160
So do you anticipate that having any financial effect?---Being taken off that roster, being a one in six roster at the moment we get paid a seven day availability allowance and then you - and then it's unplanned. So it's whether you're called in to work or not. I have many shifts where we haven't been called in and there's other shifts where we've been called in numerous times. So it will affect what I have been used to, yes.
PN161
Just in respect of hours of work and your domestic situation, are your children on school holidays at the moment?
PN162
MR MANOS: I object - - -
PN163
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just wait a second.
PN164
MR MANOS: - - - to this question. This didn't arise in cross-examination. It's already covered in the witness statement.
PN165
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Noble?
PN166
MR NOBLE: I was just going to ask about, you know, the school holidays
and - - -
PN167
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Does it arise out of cross-examination?
PN168
MR NOBLE: Well there was a response in respect of Mr Nagel responded about sleeping in the day time and how it's more difficult with children around, and I was just going to make the point that they're around a lot more when they're on holidays.
PN169
MR MANOS: Well, that goes without saying.
**** ANDREW PETER NAGEL RXN MR NOBLE
PN170
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You can make that point in submissions I think.
PN171
MR NOBLE: Thank you, your Honour.
PN172
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, nothing further?
PN173
Thank you Mr Nagel, you can step down.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.35AM]
MR NOBLE: Your Honour.
PN175
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes?
PN176
MR NOBLE: If I can call Steven Pagliese?
PN177
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
<STEVEN JOSEPH PAGLIESE, AFFIRMED [10.36AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR NOBLE [10.36AM]
MR NOBLE: I have Mr Pagliese's original statement here. If you would just like to have a look at that and confirm that it is the statement that you signed?---Yes.
PN179
Just two brief questions. Have you heard of any discussions about introducing night shifts into the CBD?---No.
PN180
And the only other thing, is there anything that you feel that you need to add to your statement as it currently stands before it gets tendered?---Yes. Just the fact that when we had our first couple of meetings about this, the night shifts roster coming in, Terry Jackson said "Anybody with any concerns, please come to my office" and I currently have my children every Wednesday, Thursday night and every other Friday, Saturday, Sunday. So I've gone to him and told him this and he has said, "We'll work around it" but obviously on the roster it's still the fact that I am on the Wednesday nights and Sundays that concerns me, that there is no working around that at all.
PN181
Thank you.
PN182
We'd like to tender this statement.
PN183
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Objections?
PN184
MR MANOS: No objections.
PN185
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The witness statement of Steven Pagliese will be marked CEPU 3.
EXHIBIT #CEPU3 WITNESS STATEMENT OF STEVEN PAGLIESE
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MANOS [10.38AM]
**** STEVEN JOSEPH PAGLIESE XXN MR MANOS
PN186
MR MANOS: You make mention in your witness statement about custody arrangements and you've just mentioned what they are to the Commission?---Yes.
PN187
Custody arrangements are subject to variation, aren't they?---My - no, we stuck to whatever we've agreed upon.
PN188
Well they can be varied, can't they?---No, because we've got an agreement in place.
PN189
All right, but that agreement can be varied by agreement with your wife, can't it?
---But I've put this to her about the changes in the roster and her agreement, if anything changed from the original agreement we
had she will take away any help that she's been doing in the past. She's stated that.
PN190
Has your agreement been certified by the Family Law Court?---No, it hasn't.
PN191
So it's just an informal arrangement?---That's correct.
PN192
Your wife works Monday to Friday, does she?---And weekends.
PN193
Every Sunday?---I don't know what she does on the weekends at - where she doesn't have the kids or when she has - what she does with the kids on the weekends where she does work weekends.
PN194
Does she work every Sunday?---I have no idea.
PN195
You're only rostered under the proposed roster to work one in four Sundays aren't you?---That's correct.
PN196
And you're saying - you're telling the Commission, are you, there's absolutely no possibility that you can negotiate with your wife so that she has the kids on that one Sunday every four weeks?---That's exactly right.
**** STEVEN JOSEPH PAGLIESE XXN MR MANOS
PN197
Isn't it the case that one of you may have to work - you can't both coordinate all of your working hours so that someone can look after the kids, and there may be times when someone has to compromise? But it doesn't follow necessarily that person is you, does it?---Basically there is no compromising. We have our weekends, and if we cannot do that weekend we need to find somewhere. My parents are up at Victor Harbor. It's a bit hard to get them up to the - of a Sunday, and then I've got to try and get them back for Monday morning.
PN198
Isn't it the case that she could change her working arrangements?---Well, it depends on her work. I don't know. I can't stipulate on that. I can't - - -
PN199
But you haven't made those inquiries then?---I have and when I do ask her to work - to swap Sundays and to do extra Sundays she says, "No".
PN200
Do you know whether she has made inquiries about her work, about whether she can make those arrangements?---She - if she says to me that she cannot do a Sunday, I don't look into it any further, like.
PN201
So it's your opinion is it that if your working hours change - - -?---Yes.
PN202
- - - you have to find a new job, there's not to be any compromise on her behalf?
---That's correct.
PN203
Okay?---I - not that I have to find a new job, that I may have to look for a new job.
PN204
Well, you may have to look for a new job?---I may.
PN205
Or you will be forced to look for a new job?---I may have to look for a new job in either SA Power Networks or outside work.
**** STEVEN JOSEPH PAGLIESE XXN MR MANOS
PN206
Well, do you wish to have a look at paragraph 20 of your statement? You say there, "I will be forced to seek alternative employment". Do you wish to amend that to, "I may be forced to seek alternative employment"?---I would like to, yes.
PN207
Thank you Commissioner, if that could be noted please.
PN208
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN209
MR MANOS: You say in your statement that the proposed roster will have a huge financial impact on you?---Yes.
PN210
Have you crunched any numbers before coming to that conclusion?---I see that the amount of overtime I've done in the past when I helped the company out, and it will make a significant impact on my take-home wage.
PN211
This is your real concern, isn't it, about the financial impact?---No, it's not because I have got a home loan that I can do on my base wage. I don't need that extra overtime. If it's there, I take it when I'm available.
PN212
So financially it won't be - it won't have a significant detriment to you?---It will because obviously it will obviously stop me from going on the holidays I want to go on. But I'll have to work towards that a bit better, won't I?
PN213
You'll still be able to perform overtime under the new proposed roster arrangement, won't you?---Well, depending on whether there's overtime there available.
PN214
There will still be an availability roster, won't there?---Yes, there'll be an availability roster.
**** STEVEN JOSEPH PAGLIESE XXN MR MANOS
PN215
You'll volunteer for that?---Well, on the week - if - as I said, if it changes for the frequency of the time that my ex has the children, then those nights that she actually looked after the kids extra, then I won't be able to do those nights.
PN216
Subject to your custody arrangements, you'll volunteer to work the availability roster?---I won't - no, I won't be.
PN217
You won't volunteer to perform - - -?---I have to do availability. There's no volunteering for availability. It's you're on availability. If you're told to be on availability, you're on availability.
PN218
Have you been told to be on availability?---Yes.
PN219
Who told you that?---Management.
PN220
Who?---It's part of our agreement from SA Power Networks.
PN221
Your understanding is that that's part - - -?---I've tried to get off - - -
PN222
Sorry, go on?---I've tried to get off availability twice that I - "Can I get off availability?" and he said, "No".
PN223
Who said that?---My supervisor.
PN224
Who's that?---Doug Heath.
PN225
Have you worked out the exact numbers about the financial impact it will have on you?---Not exact numbers, no.
PN226
No further questions, your Honour.
**** STEVEN JOSEPH PAGLIESE XXN MR MANOS
PN227
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Any re-examination?
PN228
MR NOBLE: I don't require to ask any questions.
PN229
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you Mr Pagliese. You can stand down.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.44AM]
MR NOBLE: If I could call Adam Smith next please?
PN231
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
<ADAM EDWARD SMITH, SWORN [10.45AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR NOBLE [10.45AM]
MR NOBLE: Mr Smith, I have your original statement here together with some correspondence that you refer to. If I may?---Thank you.
PN233
Can you have a look at that just to make sure that it is what you've sworn?---Yes, all good. Yes.
PN234
All right. Again, just a couple of quick questions. The first one is have you heard of any discussions about the introduction of night shifts in the CBD over the past - well, since you've been working?---No. No, discussion of night shift.
PN235
You see your statement there. Is there anything you would like to clarify or add anything you think you've missed out that you think might be relevant?---No.
PN236
I tender the statement, your Honour.
PN237
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No objection?
PN238
MR MANOS: No objections.
PN239
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, the statement of Adam Smith with attachments consisting of seven pages will be marked exhibit CEPU 4.
EXHIBIT #CEPU4 WITNESS STATEMENT OF ADAM SMITH WITH ATTACHMENTS OF SEVEN PAGES
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MANOS [10.46AM]
MR MANOS: I'd just like to hand you the statement of Andrew - Adrian Gallina, Mr Smith?---Yes.
PN241
Or someone that does that for you.
**** ADAM EDWARD SMITH XXN MR MANOS
PN242
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. It's all good here, we do everything.
PN243
MR MANOS: Mr Smith I'm just going to ask you some questions about the employment contract that applies to you. Can you have a look at AG2? So on the right-hand side there are some tabs?---Yes.
PN244
Now if you flick about halfway through you'll bump into one that's addressed to you, dated 9 February 2005. I think they're in alphabetical order. Take your time?---(indistinct) should be (indistinct). All right, yes, I've found him. Yes.
PN245
Just have a little - just take a moment, if you like, to have a look at that contract. It's six pages long. Just have a quick look. Has it got all six pages there?---Yes, six pages. Yes.
PN246
Is this the employment contract which applies to your employment?---I believe so, yes.
PN247
It's dated 9 February 2005 so presumably you received it around then. You'll see there it's addressed - it has got your name and it has got your address as at that time. Do you see that up the top left-hand corner there?---Yes. Yes.
PN248
It's addressed to "Dear Adam"?---Yes.
PN249
It offers you employment in the first line as a trades skilled worker grade 3. That was your relevant grade at that time, wasn't it?---Yes.
PN250
And it says that you were to commence in this role on 26 February 2005. Do you see that?---Yes.
PN251
And that's when you commenced in that role?---Yes.
**** ADAM EDWARD SMITH XXN MR MANOS
PN252
And if you turn the page at 2.6 it says that you will be required to participate in an availability roster and / or shift roster in
accordance with the business needs?
---Yes.
PN253
And at 2.8 it says you'll be required to work a reasonable level of overtime?
---Yes.
PN254
And in three there you'll see that as from 26 February 2005 it sets out your rate of pay?---Yes.
PN255
And that was the rate of pay that you received at that time, wasn't it?---Yes, I believe so. Yes.
PN256
And then if you turn the page again and have a look at the heading Work Location, number 4 there, the first line says that your employment base is at Marleston?---Yes.
PN257
Is that where you started?---Yes.
PN258
When you received this employment contract you understood that this was tailored to you, didn't you? Tailored to you and your particular situation?---Well, no, it's - it wasn't an individual contract. It's just the contract that the other boys that graduated at the same time and we got the same contract.
PN259
Well, it's not a pro forma without any details that are specific to you, is it?
---Sorry, mate, I don't really understand what you mean there.
PN260
It's not a general contract that doesn't mention - it mentions you by name?---Yes.
PN261
Doesn't it?---Yes.
**** ADAM EDWARD SMITH XXN MR MANOS
PN262
It mentions your address, yes?---Yes.
PN263
It mentions your pay details?---Yes.
PN264
You understood that this was an employment contract which applied to you, didn't you?---Yes.
PN265
You didn't have any queries about the contract at the time?---No.
PN266
Did you have - - -?---No.
PN267
- - - a read of it?---Yes, I had a read of it. Like I said, when I've started, the guys were - I was the first one in - the first apprentice in 14 years so you can probably imagine they were (indistinct) to have a young guy and I was keen as to work. So it was always, "You know, this is it. We're stoked to give you a job. You've done four years hard work". Like - and I didn't even - it didn't even click in my mind to really - you know, I've read it but I wasn't thinking that 10 years down the track there's going to be a - I'm going to be sitting here talking to you like this. Like - yes.
PN268
You say that it was exactly the same contract as what some of the other apprentices had been offered. Did you go through the contract with some of those other apprentices?---Yes, we just had a look and they were just - they were the same apart from obviously, yes, the name and addresses.
PN269
So you checked it with the other apprentices to make sure that you've all received pretty much the same terms and conditions?---Yes. I mean, we didn't - you know, we didn't sit down with a fine-toothed comb and read it word for word. But we just said, "Yeah, did you get the same?"
**** ADAM EDWARD SMITH XXN MR MANOS
PN270
You understood what the contract meant?---Yes.
PN271
And you didn't have any - - -?---And the job - - -
PN272
- - - queries about it at the time, did you?---No, no queries. No.
PN273
And presumably if you had had any queries you would have raised it with human resources?---Yes.
PN274
And presumably because you agreed to it, you signed it and returned it and that's your signature at the back on page 6 dated 14 February?---Yes.
PN275
And you understood that what the contract required you to potentially perform in the future is shift roster work?---Well, no, because there was nothing - I'd never worked a shift, not even through my apprenticeship, so.
PN276
No, but you understood from clause 2.6, didn't you, that in the future if the business needs required it, that you might need to work some shift work?---Yes, I couldn't really see 10 years ago what was going to happen today. So I don't know, I can't really give like a yes or no to - yes.
PN277
You didn't turn your mind to it at that particular time perhaps?---Well, the only thing I did see the shift in there but in place there was in the - you see, when you go through your time, I went through in the CBD, predominantly in the CBD. But you get shifted around through all the different groups to get different skill levels and experiences and, you know, to learn the trade. In other areas, you know, that area in - in, yes, like Nagel was operating in at the time, there was an afternoon shift and, you know, I talked about (indistinct) we talked about if I ever - you know, just amongst guys, if I ever did want to move depots, like if I went down south and went to a line depot, that yes, I would have to do an afternoon shift, and I was aware of that. That's how the - yes.
**** ADAM EDWARD SMITH XXN MR MANOS
PN278
You understood, didn't you, that this contract at the time you signed it was specific to you?---I think we had that one. But that's just, yes, it had my name on it. Yes. But it's the same just apart from obviously the name.
PN279
Well like you said, you read clause 2.6 at the time. You didn't believe that you would never be required to work a shift roster, did you?---Did I believe I would never be required to work a shift roster? Yes, I - like I've just explained to you, mate, that if I went to a line depot I was under the understanding that there was enough afternoon shift in place, and that was something that I would have to take onboard if I changed to a different depot.
PN280
So working a shift roster was something which applied to you?---If I moved into a - not in the depot I was in. There wasn't one in place.
PN281
Well, it doesn't say that in the contract, does it?---Say what exactly?
PN282
Well, it doesn't say you only have to work a shift roster if you move to another particular location?---Well, I couldn't work the shift roster where they were asking me to work because there wasn't one in place. So that's what I mean. I don't - I couldn't presume that in 10 years' time I'm going to be sitting here talking to you.
PN283
So the statement that you've - the sentence that you've written in your statement about the fact that you didn't think that the requirement to participate in a shift roster applied to you?---Yes.
PN284
You thought only at that particular location you wouldn't be required to work a shift roster, is that correct?---Yes, that's right. If I went to a different location I knew that I would have to take onboard the afternoon shift.
PN285
You're not currently at the location you were at the time of the contract day? You're not at Marleston?---Yes, I'm at Marleston.
**** ADAM EDWARD SMITH XXN MR MANOS
PN286
I see. In your statement you talk about custody arrangements?---Yes.
PN287
And you say that there will be a clash of hours under the new proposed roster which will make the custody difficult?---Yes.
PN288
It doesn't necessarily that just because you can't look after the children at a particular time that your partner can't, that you would have to change jobs, does it? Isn't it possible that she might be able to adjust her working times?---Yes, well I don't know, mate. Look, this is all new to me so I just - for me, I do whatever's best for the kids. Like, I try and keep it as amicable as I can with her because it's best for me and it's best for the kids. So if she says to me - like last weekend she said, "They've offered me an extra shift Saturday night". I said, "No worries, I'll have the kids". Because I want to see my kids anyway so - and the same thing, you know, if I say to her - like today I said, "Man, I've got to go to this hearing" so we made arrangements so that - because it's my day to have the kids between us. And I just think it's better on the kids and amicable if we can help each other out as best as possible.
PN289
So you have an amicable relationship with your partner?---Yes, try to.
PN290
And therefore under the new proposed roster it might be possible to come to some arrangement with her about the custody of the children?---That's where it becomes difficult because she's an RN, a registered nurse, so they're on - she's already on shifts. So she's got permanent Tuesday afternoon shift which she don't get home till - she probably don't get home till 11 or something. So, you know, I'm supposed to start on the new proposed roster eight or 9 o'clock, whatever it is.
PN291
So it might be possible?---Well, I just told you it's not because there's a gap in there and I don't feel comfortable leaving my kids at home unsupervised. Yes, and then the week - and she does a weekend. She's guaranteed a weekend shift, which is always varied. It can be like a Saturday night, a Sunday, a Sunday afternoon, a Sunday night. Yes, it always varies depending on like - yes.
**** ADAM EDWARD SMITH XXN MR MANOS
PN292
Well have you explored with her the possibility of moving her hours? Is that possible?---No.
PN293
It's not possible at all?---To moving her hours? No. I talked to her about it and she didn't want to - like, I talked to her about it, like even changing the whole - because we predominantly have a week but there's days in between where it's split up, and she didn't want to change her predominant week because of the way things are at her work. She wants to keep those hours, yes, and like I said - - -
PN294
I have no further questions.
PN295
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Noble?
PN296
MR NOBLE: Nothing for Mr Smith.
PN297
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks Mr Smith. You can step down.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.59AM]
MR NOBLE: Our final witness, your Honour, is Benjamin Jewell.
PN299
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
<BENJAMIN LAWRENCE JEWELL, SWORN [11.00AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR NOBLE [11.00AM]
MR NOBLE: Mr Jewell I have your statement here but it isn't the original one. It's one which you emailed. I understand that you didn't bring a copy of the original?---Yes.
PN301
But we have the emailed copy, your Honour.
PN302
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, that's fine.
PN303
MR NOBLE: Can you have a look at this?---Thank you.
PN304
All right, can you have a look at your statement please, Mr Jewell, and confirm that is the one that you sent through?---Correct, that's the one I sent through.
PN305
All right. Again, I just have a couple of cursory questions for you. The first one is have you heard of any discussions about the introduction of night shifts in the CBD over recent years?---No. No, I haven't.
PN306
Now at paragraph 14 of your statement you say that you applied for a job in the CBD because you were interested in being trained in the work performed uniquely in the CBD. Were there any other reasons for applying?---Yes, I previously worked in a suburban emergency depot which their - a lot of their work was nights and weekends, just when accidents happened or when breakdowns occurred. I had worked a lot of overtime in that depot and gone through a divorce, a marriage breakdown, and saw this as a chance to get my weekends and week nights back, rather than having to be at work all the time.
PN307
Do you earn more in the CBD than you did at your previous depot?---No, I took a bit of a pay cut to come here, just for my weekends and my nights back.
**** BENJAMIN LAWRENCE JEWELL XN MR NOBLE
PN308
Is there anything you need to add or clarify in your statement?---No, I think the statement covers it all.
PN309
I tender the statement, your Honour.
PN310
MR MANOS: No objection.
PN311
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You didn't want to have a look at that one? You're happy that the copy that the witness has - - -
PN312
MR MANOS: Well, what I'm happy to be tendered is the version that has been signed and provided to us and provided to the Commission.
PN313
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right.
PN314
MR MANOS: And I - yes.
PN315
MR NOBLE: It's the same.
PN316
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, yes the statement of Benjamin Jewell will be marked exhibit CEPU 5.
EXHIBIT #CEPU5 WITNESS STATEMENT OF BENJAMIN JEWELL
MR MANOS: Can I just ask to have a look at that statement that has been handed to Mr Jewell please? Thank you. Just for the purposes of the Commission that is the signed version that I also have a copy of.
PN318
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.
**** BENJAMIN LAWRENCE JEWELL XN MR NOBLE
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MANOS [11.05AM]
MR MANOS: Thank you.
PN320
Mr Jewell, I just want to ask you some questions about how you put together this statement. Did you type it up yourself?---No, I've got no experience of legal documentation whatsoever.
PN321
Okay, do you know who typed it up for you?---I asked Jess to help me out.
PN322
So you met with Jess, did you, to talk about your statement?---Yes, to clarify. Yes.
PN323
Before you compiled it, so before it was drafted?---No, I had a couple of pages of writing and stuff, you know?
PN324
You gave those pages of writing to Jess from the union, did you, and then that was typed up?---We just sat down.
PN325
Were you provided with this before you met with Jess?---With what?
PN326
With a copy of this statement?---No.
PN327
Are these words your words do you think?---Yes. Whose words would they be?
PN328
Are these similar to or the words that you provided to Jess when you met with her?---Yes.
PN329
Did you have Mr Nagel's statement in front of you when you met with Jess?---No.
PN330
Have you seen Mr Nagel's statement?---No.
**** BENJAMIN LAWRENCE JEWELL XXN MR MANOS
PN331
Have you seen Mr - did you see Mr Nagel's statement before you signed this statement?---No.
PN332
The reason I'm asking you those questions, Mr Jewell, is that your statement seems to bear a remarkable similarity to Mr Nagel's statement. So perhaps if Mr Jewell could be shown Mr Nagel's statement? We'll start with your statement, Mr Jewell. Just have a look at your paragraph 18, "Overtime has always been optional and I have chosen to do overtime when I am available around my personal life and commitments"?---Yes.
PN333
And then have a look at paragraph 30 of Mr Nagel's, "Overtime has always been optional and I have chosen to do overtime when I am available around my personal life and commitments"?---That applies to both our situations.
PN334
Have a look at paragraph 20 of yours, "I have always made myself available for the company when I'm capable of doing so and it's necessary to assist the company" then have a look at paragraph 34 of Mr Nagel's. It's identical?---It applies.
PN335
So you stand by what you said, that you didn't have Mr Nagel's statement - - -?---I do.
PN336
- - - to hand when you put together your statement?---I do.
PN337
Okay, have a look at paragraph 21 of yours, "I strongly oppose the introduction of the shift work proposed by SA Power Networks". Have a look at paragraph 33 of Mr Nagel's, "I strongly oppose the introduction of the shift work proposed by SA Power Networks"?---Yes.
PN338
Have a look at your 22, "I am very annoyed at the way the company is" and it goes on, and then Mr Nagel's says something very similar, "I am very irritated at the way the company is" and it goes on. Your paragraph 23 - - -?---That's not similar.
**** BENJAMIN LAWRENCE JEWELL XXN MR MANOS
PN339
Okay?---They are not similar, those two.
PN340
Have a look at your paragraph 23, "SA Power Networks promotes itself as being an employer that promotes safety in everything, it values its staff and supports work - life balance" then have a look at Mr Nagel's 36. It says exactly the same thing, doesn't it?---Looks like it.
PN341
Then your paragraph 24, "The impact the proposed shift will have on my family and personal life is significant". That's identical to Mr Nagel's 37?---Yes.
PN342
Well these are all Mr Nagel's words, aren't they?---No, they're on my statement. I've signed it.
PN343
And the same goes for - I won't take you through each one, but the same goes for your paragraph 28, his paragraph 41. You don't have to comment on these. It's they either are or they aren't. Your paragraph 29 is identical to his paragraph 42 and your paragraph 30 is identical to his 43, and your paragraph 32, "I am concerned about the safety implications of the proposed roster" is identical to his 45, "I am concerned about the safety implications of the proposed roster". Isn't it the case that you don't genuinely hold many of these concerns but these words have just been put into the statement on your behalf?---Not at all. Completely incorrect. We are both working in the same department and we have both been put on the same roster so why would they not apply to both of us?
PN344
Under the proposed roster arrangement is it your understanding that you might end up working less overtime than what you currently work?---I don't work much overtime now.
PN345
Do you work any overtime?---Yes, a little bit.
**** BENJAMIN LAWRENCE JEWELL XXN MR MANOS
PN346
Are you on the availability roster?---No.
PN347
Mr Jewell, can I just ask you to have a look at the statement of Adrian Gallina?
---Thank you.
PN348
I think in AG2 there, there's your employment contract. Again it's varied in there but they are listed in alphabetical order?---I've got that, yes.
PN349
Just take your time?---I've found it.
PN350
Is that a contract in the form of a letter dated 18 January 2010 addressed to you?
---Correct.
PN351
Is this the employment contract which applies to your employment?---Yes, it is.
PN352
And is that your signature on page 8 of that contract?---It is. Correct.
PN353
And that contains at clause 2.5 that it says that "Depending on the business requirements" - it's on page 2 - that "you may be required to participate in the availability roster and / or shift roster"?---It does contain that clause.
PN354
Thank you, no further questions.
PN355
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Yes, anything by way of re-examination?
PN356
MR NOBLE: I don't think we need to ask anything. Thank you.
PN357
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, thanks Mr Jewell. You're free to step down?---Thank you.
**** BENJAMIN LAWRENCE JEWELL XXN MR MANOS
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.12AM]
MR NOBLE: That concludes the witnesses for the CEPU, the applicant, your Honour.
PN359
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. You don't wish to make any submissions at this stage?
PN360
MR NOBLE: I was speaking to my friend earlier and we thought it's probably better to do it after tomorrow.
PN361
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sure.
PN362
MR NOBLE: If that's okay?
PN363
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, fine.
PN364
MR MANOS: Your Honour, I might just start with a brief opening of the employer's case before proceeding through all my witnesses.
PN365
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN366
MR MANOS: Has your Honour had an opportunity to read the employer's submissions?
PN367
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I have. Thank you.
PN368
MR MANOS: The employer's case is that the new roster is being introduced for reasons of productivity and profitability. For the CBD work group there is an ongoing need for work to be performed in the city outside of ordinary hours. Ordinary hours are currently 7 am to 3.30 pm. There is a need for work to be performed on Sundays and there's a need for work to be performed at nights. The reason the work is to be performed at those times is because those are off peak hours when the city doesn't operate or operates to a much lesser extent than what it does during peak hours.
PN369
Under the proposed roster the employer has selected three consecutive night shifts for each worker to work on Monday to Wednesday nights, and for that reason as well, that it's off peak. The need for that work to be performed has been in existence for some time and it's an ongoing need, and perhaps one which will continue to grow. The current arrangements, namely having to require employees to work overtime to perform what they know - what the employer knows will be work that needs to be performed, creates a significant amount of overtime that it needs to pay and also stand down pay. Stand down pay is the term that's used by this particular employer to refer to the period of time after the employee finishes a shift and they need the minimum 10 hour break.
PN370
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN371
MR MANOS: Most of the employees in the CBD work group work outside of their ordinary hours, so they perform some overtime. The vast majority of them are on the availability roster. The availability roster rosters each person who's on it to be available to perform work once every six weeks, and that's what this employer refers to as unplanned overtime. There is an additional need for overtime which is called planned overtime which is voluntary, and that is work which the employer knows needs to be performed in advance and rosters or assigns employees to perform that work.
PN372
That work is ordinarily performed after 8 pm, which is off peak and ordinarily is an extended - continues for an extended period of time. So it might conclude at three or 4 am. Sometimes that work needs to be performed on just one night, sometimes that work needs to be performed on multiple consecutive nights. Effectively most of these employees are already working shifts of a sort, and what this employer is looking to do is to formalise that arrangement.
PN373
As a result of that, some of the employees will work less hours but they - and therefore they will earn less as well. Others may not be affected financially. Otherwise the terms and conditions of employment will continue as is. The work that these employees will be performing under the new roster will be the same. They'll be performing work in the same location. This dispute has come before the Commission as a result of the union exercising its right under clause 11, which allows it to refer issues of concern.
PN374
That is clearly a very broad provision which allows the Commission to conciliate and arbitrate any issues of concern but, in my submission, the Commission, in deciding issues which are referred to it, should do so on a far narrower basis, rather than is someone" - is this causing a concern for a particular person. The issue should be decided on some sort of legal basis and not perceived or subjective notions of fairness. In my submission the complaint that has been brought by the union - and it should not be upheld and the employer should be allowed to implement its new roster if it's not in direct contravention of the enterprise agreement and it's not in direct contravention of any other health and safety laws.
PN375
As I understand the union's case, it's being put forward that it is in breach of the enterprise agreement and that if they're wrong on that, that the manner of implementation is being criticised, and that the implementation of the roster shouldn't be allowed to proceed because of the manner in which it's being implemented. What we say is that the implementation of the new roster is really a matter of managerial prerogative and that's an area in which the Commission ought to be reluctant to venture into, and ordinarily is if there is some legal basis for - and justification for what the employer is seeking to do. In my submission the issues for the Commission to decide can be broken up this way.
PN376
One, would the introduction of the shift roster breach the enterprise agreement, to which we say no it doesn't. And in fact on a fair reading of the enterprise agreement it actually allows for this roster to be introduced. There are specific provisions which allow for it, and that's a combination of the objectives clause, clause 7, and its clauses 3 and 9 of attachment 2. Clause 3 deals with consultation and clause 9 deals with shift rosters, and the objectives clause anticipates that there will be changes during the life of the agreement. I intend to take your Honour to those in detail in my closing submissions, but perhaps if I could ask your Honour to turn to it now? Your Honour will see in clause 7 the objectives which are set out and there are two paragraphs with dot points that follow. The second, starting:
PN377
The parties will work collaboratively towards implementing business changes necessary to improve performance against the following key business objectives.
PN378
And it sets out there a series of dot points including, "Productivity improvements" and the final dot point, "Business plan financial outcomes". There's a strong focus in this provision on improving productivity and profitability and change is anticipated. Attachment 2 of the enterprise agreement sets out the terms and conditions and clause 3 talks of consultation, clause 3.1 deals with general consultation. Again I'll take your Honour through these in closing in detail, but for now it's suffice to note that it requires consultation not co-determination or agreement, and clause 3.2 on page 33 specifically provides for a process in which:
PN379
…changes that have been made to the employees' regular roster or ordinary hours of work…
PN380
And that requires the employer to comply with 3.1 and as I understand it the consultation which has occurred in this case is not in dispute. Finally, clause 9 at attachment 2 deals with shift work and what is being proposed is non-continuous shift work as defined by that provision. Your Honour will see in clause 9.1 the first sentence there that specifically contemplates shift work for appendix 1B employees, and appendix 1B employees are what might broadly be described as the blue collar workers and includes the CBD work group.
PN381
What is being proposed by this employer is a roster which is entirely consistent with clause 9 and provides for all the entitlements that an employee is entitled to under this provision. Now turning back to the issues which I say are alive in this dispute, and there's the one, the matter of is the EBA breached. The second is will the shift roster present an unacceptable risk to work health and safety. That is a matter on which your Honour can decide and the respondent intends to call expert evidence about that issue, and that's the statement that's set out in the statement of Matthew Thomas who will give evidence tomorrow morning.
PN382
What he says is there's no significant increase in risk with this proposed roster, and this employer has taken the time to ensure that there is no significant increase in risk as a result of this roster. And in fact there's a suggestion in Mr Thomas's statement that the planned shift work might actually assist some of these employees who, as I say, most of which are performing shift work effectively anyway. The third issue as we put it is that - for your Honour to decide on whether there are any other factors the Commission should take into account and we say there are two.
PN383
One, the contracts of employment which specifically provide for shift rosters to be introduced and, two, the position descriptions which contain a similar clause and anticipate the introduction of shift rosters. All but a handful of employees are subject to either a provision in their contract to that effect or a provision in their position description, and those that aren't, the employer is not proposing to put onto the shift rosters.
PN384
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What about the employees' family responsibilities in terms of any other factors?
PN385
MR MANOS: Well, what we say about that is that what's being proposed is really for the vast majority of employees really no different from what they're currently doing, one. Two, that it's really no different from what any other employee performing shift work faces in terms of personal difficulty, but that this is quite different really from many of the shift rosters which employees work because this is only three nights every four weeks.
PN386
The statistics, as I say, support the fact that many of these employees over the last financial year were working those hours anyway. But secondly, that the evidence about that issue is weak and unsustainable and the only evidence that has been given applies to a couple of the employees, and there are 36 employees in this work group. It ought not to be, in my submission, a matter that should be given much weight, if any.
PN387
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It would be helpful if in the evidence that you lead perhaps that that's a matter that could be addressed in terms of whether there's any flexibility available to deal with some of the concerns that the employees have expressed.
PN388
MR MANOS: Yes.
PN389
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.
PN390
MR MANOS: Thank you, your Honour. In terms of the witnesses, as I foreshadowed at the commencement of this hearing, I have three witnesses scheduled for today. They are Mr Tim Scutter, Mr Terry Jackson and Mr Adrian Gallina. I understand from communications before today with the union that Tim Scutter will not be subject to cross-examination and on that basis I ask that his statement be tendered (indistinct) required to hop in the box.
PN391
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, that's agreed. Yes all right, on that basis the statement of Mr Tim Scutter will be marked SAPN 2.
EXHIBIT #SAPN2 WITNESS STATEMENT OF TIM SCUTTER
MR MANOS: I call, if the Commission pleases, Terry Jackson.
PN393
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Thank you.
<TERRY JOHN JACKSON, AFFIRMATION [11.28AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MANOS [11.28AM]
MR MANOS: Yes, I ask that Mr Jackson be provided with a copy of his statement.
PN395
Mr Jackson have you prepared a statement for the purposes of these proceedings?
--- Yes.
PN396
Is that the statement before you that you've prepared, which is nine pages in length with two attachments?---Yes, it is.
PN397
Have you read this statement recently and are there any changes you wish to make to it?---I read it and there's no changes.
PN398
I tender the statement of Terry Jackson dated 15 December.
PN399
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. No objection Mr Noble?
PN400
MR NOBLE: No, your Honour.
PN401
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, the statement of Terry Jackson, and that has three attachments, will be marked exhibit SAPN 3.
EXHIBIT #SAPN3 WITNESS STATEMENT OF TERRY JACKSON DATED 15/12/2014, WITH THREE ATTACHMENTS
MR MANOS: It might be two attachments, your Honour. Pardon me. Yes, sorry, the third one is up the way.
PN403
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN404
MR MANOS: No further questions for Mr Jackson.
**** TERRY JOHN JACKSON XN MR MANOS
PN405
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks Mr Noble.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NOBLE [11.30AM]
MR NOBLE: Mr Jackson, I just have a few questions I'd like to ask you from what you've raised in your statement. How long have you actually been working for SAPN?---This is the second time I've been employed by the company and this time it is approximately six years.
PN407
Six years, and what role did you have before, prior to June 2013?---I was offline for 12 months on a project, a special project reducing switching incidents. And prior to that - so that was for 12 months and prior to that I was operations manager for Country South.
PN408
Now you state at paragraph 4 of your statement that the work group are confined to the CBD, but aren't they also - don't they also look after North Adelaide as well?---Yes, they do look after - - -
PN409
Or north (indistinct) - - -?---- - - parts of North Adelaide depending on what the work is to be done there.
PN410
Now a lot of what you write on page one and two we don't take any issue with any of that. I must say though in relation to 16.2 I did find it somewhat alarming to read in your statement there the possible consequences of exploding manhole covers and so on. Can you give me an estimate of how many manhole covers there are in the CBD?---I believe that there are approximately eleven hundred manholes - - -
PN411
Eleven hundred?---- - - within the CBD.
PN412
And what sort of percentage of these manhole covers would be at risk of these explosions, would you know?---I couldn't tell you.
**** TERRY JOHN JACKSON XXN MR NOBLE
PN413
Well, roughly is it like 50 per cent, 30 per cent?---I have no idea.
PN414
So you have no idea. So no research work has been undertaken in respect of this potential public hazard?---Andrew Nagel and probably the other witnesses that have been up here this morning who work in the network would be more aware of that. My operation supervisors would be more aware of the numbers, but that's a level of detail that I've never delved into.
PN415
No, I'm just asking whether or not any survey work or research has been undertaken?---Yes.
PN416
It has?---Yes.
PN417
But you are not aware of the details?---I am not aware of the numbers, no.
PN418
Right, thank you. You state at 17 that most buildings have two feeds going in, is that correct?
PN419
Isn't it the case that it only - doesn't it only apply to those with 33,000 watts - kilowatts going in?---Yes, correct. As I've said in here, high voltage and with two feeds it is specific to 33,000 volts.
PN420
You say that in 17, okay. Now in 19 you talk about several penalties that can be imposed on SAPN if there's a power outage, but can I put it to you - and some significant financial penalties as well. I take it on trust that they're correct. We didn't research any of those and we see no reason to doubt you on them, but I put it to you that you're going to be exposed to these penalties irrespective of whether or not night shifts are introduced, aren't you?---Correct.
PN421
Now in relation to your statement at 20.1 from the questioning that I've done, the information I've been given accords with your evidence that Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday are the best nights to work. But it's not the case, is it, that one employee would generally work all three nights, is it?---Not generally.
**** TERRY JOHN JACKSON XXN MR NOBLE
PN422
No, rather they tend to work no more than two, don't they?---Work is normally scheduled to go across two nights.
PN423
So that's a yes?---That's correct.
PN424
Recently, as I understand it, you've been employing contractors to jack up some of the paving at night and then the employees will come in the following day after that initial work has been done to perform the electrical works, and that's working, isn't it?---That's working.
PN425
It's a practical solution is it not?---In this specific situation, yes.
PN426
Yes. Now under 20.2 you say that, "The occupiers of buildings cannot usually be interrupted during business hours" and so on and I think under your charter you give four days' generally?---Correct.
PN427
But that's more about customer service than anything else isn't it really?---The four days' notice are you talking about?
PN428
Yes?---We're obliged to.
PN429
Under your charter though?---Correct.
PN430
Because under the Act you simply have to give reasonable notice, don't you?---I'm not aware of the specific legal details but I do know that the company works according to what it's legal requirement is and that is why we give four days' notice.
PN431
Right, anyway you're not an expert legal person anyway?---Definitely not.
**** TERRY JOHN JACKSON XXN MR NOBLE
PN432
So I think it would be unfair for you to have a look at the section of the Act, but my understanding is that reasonable notice, it's going to depend on what the circumstances are from time to time, and that may be just a few hours if it's an emergency situation. Now at 20.3 you say, "A customer may request work to be undertaken at a certain time because the customer has other contractors coming in to perform work as well and they want everything done at once". When the customers make these requests, they have to pay for that, don't they?---Correct.
PN433
Right, and they pay for the labour costs, yes? All the labour costs involved, and they also pay your on-costs, don't they?---That's correct.
PN434
And what sort of percentage for the average job would your on-costs be on top of covering the labour costs for the employees?---I have no idea. That's handled by another department in the business.
PN435
Irrespective of not being able to give me a percentage, I would imagine it's somewhere between - I don't know, 10 and 30 per cent, maybe more depending on the size. Presumably the bigger the job, the lower the percentage. You'd agree with that, wouldn't you?---Potentially.
PN436
Right, so in these circumstances SAPN is actually making money, aren't you, from these works?---Is that a question or a statement?
PN437
The customer - well, aren't you?---You're asking me?
PN438
Yes?---I wouldn't know. I would assume the on-costs are to cover the administrative and other overheads that exist. So I couldn't tell you if we're making money or not.
PN439
So you think it would be done at a flat rate?---I don't know.
**** TERRY JOHN JACKSON XXN MR NOBLE
PN440
No. Well, you're a privatised company now. I don't think - I think we can assume that there's a monetary incentive for the services to be performed. Now at 25 you state that the standard hours or the ordinary hours of the employees in the CBD are 7 am till 3.30 and with a rostered day off every second Friday. My understanding is that you need to get agreement in the EBA with the new roster. I'll put it to you this way. Introducing the new roster, wouldn't you have to - because you're changing one week in every four, and then after the one week that they go back to their normal roster wouldn't that be a requirement for you to have agreement for the employees to do that, because they're going out of their normal roster for that one week where they're performing, let's say the night work and the Sunday work, and then they go back into their roster, but then that's only three weeks?---That's a question probably best asked for one of the HR representatives. I take advice on any changes like that from HR.
PN441
Now at number - paragraph 32 you refer to Ben Jewell, "He has been rostered on availability for this year to give him experience as he transferred into the CBD work". But would it come as a surprise to you if I told you that he only was on availability for one day and that he didn't actually perform any duties?---I couldn't answer that. I'm not - I don't go into detail on who is and who isn't on availability and how frequently.
PN442
Okay?---I do know that I came into work on one particular night to the CBD to observe some work and Ben was actually working that night with the crew in his training position. But I don't know under what circumstances he was there, whether it was part of availability or unplanned work.
PN443
Right?---Planned work, sorry.
PN444
Planned work. Now at 36 - and forgive me, you may not actually be - you may not be able to give me the answer with this one but I'll ask it anyway just on the basis that if you do know you can tell me. At paragraph 36 you say, "The 2015 availability roster has been prepared on the basis that the status quo has been maintained and the rosters are introduced and then it will be superseded by a shift roster". Are you aware that in Murray Bridge an availability roster was put to the vote and then rejected?---No, I'm not aware.
**** TERRY JOHN JACKSON XXN MR NOBLE
PN445
You're not aware of that. Are you aware that in the present incidence this is the first time affected employees will have seen the
proposed availability roster?
---Sorry, which one are you referring to? The 2015?
PN446
The one that we - yes the 2015 availability roster?---And it's the - sorry?
PN447
It's only through these proceedings, that's what I'm trying to say, that the employees who are going to be working the 2015 roster have had access to that roster?---I believe the roster was made available to the employees recently. The 2015 availability roster.
PN448
Yes?---I believe that was worked on with the operations supervisors some time either last month or earlier this month.
PN449
It may have been worked on during those periods. I'm not - - -?---Yes.
PN450
I'm not doubting that?---And I understand that that - once that was confirmed with the administrative people doing that in conjunction with the operations supervisors, that that roster was then made available to the employees.
PN451
Well as far as I understand, the first time that we've seen it and the employees have seen it is last Monday. Okay, now at 37 you
say, "Not everyone's on the availability roster because at the moment there are enough sufficiently skilled CBD employees that
want to be on availability" and so that you don't need to roster everyone. But now with the new roster that's going to change.
Some of those who are available or would like to be available to go on to availability won't have the choice, and others will be
forced onto the availability roster, won't they?
---No, that's not correct. Are you talking under the proposed model?
PN452
Yes?---No, that's not correct.
**** TERRY JOHN JACKSON XXN MR NOBLE
PN453
What's not correct about it?---Well, currently the availability roster is one in six weeks requiring a minimum of 12 people. Under the new model it's - the frequency changes so there is possibly at least one employee who currently is on the availability roster may not be in the future, under the proposed model.
PN454
Yes, and that frequence - I'll come back to the frequency change a bit later. I'll just go through it by paragraph. I think it's easier to keep things in order.
PN455
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay, sure.
PN456
MR NOBLE: Just I wonder if you could clarify for me - I mean, you may not be able to. Maybe it's an HR thing but it's in your statement anyway. In the same paragraph what exactly does "later stages of their career mean"?---Sorry, which paragraph now are we on?
PN457
37 still?---37. Well, for example, there's one employee who's - I believe he's now in his early 60s who in recent times has requested to come off the availability roster, and there's been another person with the suitable skills and qualifications to take his place to allow him to come off of it, which at his age seemed a reasonable request and the right thing to do.
PN458
So what you're saying is you can be flexible when there is potential to cover for somebody? You will take into consideration the requests and personal circumstances of your employees?---Where it's possible to, yes.
PN459
Yes, and as you say it currently is. Again at 43 this just comes down to the question of you talk about one, two or three consecutive nights and my instructions are that one night is the norm, quite frequently it's two nights but three nights is very rare especially from the same work group. You'd agree with that wouldn't you?---Correct.
**** TERRY JOHN JACKSON XXN MR NOBLE
PN460
Are you aware of any concerns which have been raised by employees with their duty officers about fatigue in relation to working a third night or even a second night?---Previously or going forward?
PN461
No, I have in mind something over the past few weeks, a month or so. I mean, it may not have come to your attention, I don't know?---No.
PN462
All right, so you'd accept then that if an employee raised concerns about fatigue with their duty officer that it may not necessarily filter up?---It's not filtered to me.
PN463
This planned overtime clause, I'm looking at paragraph 49 where you talk about hours, "Start work 7 am. Ordinary hours paid at ordinary rates" and you state at 49.2, "They start work at 7 am and work till 11 am then go home to rest to ensure that they're not fatigued when they return to work later that night". But isn't it the case that they don't go home before 11 am? They generally work till 12.30 or one, till lunch time?---No, I - it's on always the understanding that if employees are coming back in the night time they leave work 10 hours prior.
PN464
That's your understanding?---Correct.
PN465
The example that you give here in the hours and so on, I mean you've chosen a week where they have the RDO and you've chosen that for their start but you must be aware that the nine, 10 days RDOs, the days that they have on the RDOs, those hours have already been accumulated anyway?---That's correct.
PN466
That's why they're given the RDO. I mean, I think the way that it works and the way that you calculate the hours is a bit - it's very selective.
PN467
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Noble, just confine - - -
**** TERRY JOHN JACKSON XXN MR NOBLE
PN468
MR NOBLE: Isn't it?
PN469
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: In future just confine your comments to questions please.
PN470
MR NOBLE: Your Honour.
PN471
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But I'll take that as a question. Did you want to put that as a question for an answer?
PN472
MR NOBLE: Well, just the way that it's structured including having Saturday and Sunday in there with the hours worked. I mean, these are workers, Monday to Friday so why have you included the Saturday and Sunday hours?---In the proposed roster?
PN473
No, into our calculations down here?---I'm sorry, I'm only - if you are talking about my question - my statement 49, this only refers to Monday to Friday. I can't see where you're talking about Saturday or Sunday.
PN474
I'm just going through. Sorry, it's following, it's in 50 where you state the conclusion. Where you say, "Put another way, the employee works three days out of seven" and you've just said that the RDO is time worked which has already been accumulated, so that's four and it isn't out of seven because they only work Monday to Friday. So I just wondered why really, you know - the way you look at it, it looks as though you're including Saturday and Sunday?---My statement is - I purely thought across a week when I've made that statement.
PN475
Again at 51 you're quoting three consecutive nights and we take issue with that, that it's rarely done. Now 53 is where you state that you've had discussions with Craig Miller about introducing a night shift into the CBD at various stages over the past 10 years. But as you've heard - I think you've been in the room all this time - that none of the employees had any understanding that there had been discussions over the past 10 years of this. How widely were the discussions had with management and how many employees may have been involved in those discussions for their opinions, for their input?---You'd probably have to ask Craig the answer to that because I've only been part of this work group, as you are aware, for the last 18 months. But talking to two operations supervisors in charge of the boys in the room here, Geoff Crock and Doug Heath, they've both been in the work group for most of those 10 years I believe. This has been floated on about three different occasions, the idea of putting in a night shift, but for various reasons it's not progressed. So the idea and the concept of it has been around for approximately 10 years I understand.
**** TERRY JOHN JACKSON XXN MR NOBLE
PN476
As you understand, but you don't have any direct experience of that, do you?
---Well, I've only been in the work group for 18 months.
PN477
Your Honour, I think that should be afforded the weight somewhat less.
PN478
MR MANOS: Perhaps if my friend can save his submissions to the end, your Honour, and confine himself to questions.
PN479
MR NOBLE: Happy to do that.
PN480
All right, now at 54 you say that you were instructed to engage Ernst & Young to do a review of the CBD operations?---No, it says that - - -
PN481
Isn't that what it says?---It says that "He advised that he had - - -
PN482
"He had engaged"?---- - - engaged Ernst & Young".
PN483
Sorry?---Yes.
PN484
"And as a consequence he wanted me to implement the shift roster?---Correct. That's what it says.
PN485
So were you consulted by Ernst & Young yourself during that review?---I met with Ernst & Young when they were completing their document.
PN486
As they were sort of bedding it down completely, so you weren't interviewed in respect of any rosters?---I was not interviewed, no.
PN487
Do you know if any of the employees were interviewed by Ernst & Young?---Off the top of my head I couldn't tell you. It would be in their document I would imagine.
**** TERRY JOHN JACKSON XXN MR NOBLE
PN488
And did you get to - so you haven't seen the document?---I've seen the document but I couldn't tell you - it's quite a lengthy document so I couldn't tell you off the top of my head who was engaged in discussion with them.
PN489
But you used their review as a basis to implement the shift rosters?---Correct.
PN490
So you must know it pretty intimately?---I know the relevant details of it.
PN491
But surely a relevant detail would be whether or not an employee was actually consulted or interviewed as part of the review?---As I said, it may be in the document but I gave an affirmation to just tell the truth on what I know and I cannot honestly recall whose names are in that document.
PN492
So you can't recall seeing whether or not an employee had been interviewed?
---That's correct.
PN493
As you state at 55 this is the new roster you're talking about, isn't it, and there's going to be a requirement to work on a Sunday in the new roster?---Correct.
PN494
And currently there's no requirement to work on a Sunday or a Saturday, they're just Monday to Friday employees aren't they?---Under their current employment arrangements?
PN495
Yes?---Sunday is voluntary or through availability.
PN496
Right, and it's here where you talk about returning to the remaining three weeks of the roster cycle as well. I've just a couple more quick ones for you. At paragraph 64 you say - and it has been led from the bar table as well - that, "Employees are not being asked to work more hours under the proposed roster than they are currently required to work now"?---That's correct.
**** TERRY JOHN JACKSON XXN MR NOBLE
PN497
But you have to admit, don't you, that the hours that they currently work irrespective of whether they're more or not, they essentially aren't as convenient when they have the choice or the capacity to actually choose to work those hours. You would agree with that, wouldn't you?---Sorry, can you clarify your question please?
PN498
That it's not so much of an inconvenience when you actually have the ability to volunteer to work those hours?---No, that - the employees currently are rostered to work 72 hours a fortnight and the new roster has them working 72 hours a fortnight. I can't speak from personal terms what's most convenient for those employees.
PN499
All right, with the - I withdraw that. At 73 you talk about people working different amounts or working the same hours in different amounts. I won't raise that with you. I think it's more appropriate with another witness, so I have no further questions.
PN500
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks Mr Noble.
PN501
MR MANOS: No re-examination, thank you.
PN502
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you Mr Jackson?---Thank you.
PN503
You can step down.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.58AM]
MR MANOS: I call Mr Adrian Gallina.
<ADRIAN GALLINA, SWORN [11.58AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MANOS [11.58AM]
MR MANOS: Could Mr Gallina please be provided with a copy of his statement. Thank you. Mr Gallina, have you prepared a statement for the purposes of these proceedings?---Correct.
PN506
Is that statement 46 paragraphs in length with four attachments and signed and dated by you 15 December 2014?---Correct.
PN507
Are there any corrections you wish to make to this statement?---Yes, there is. In relation to paragraph 27 and 28 I've had further clarification that the vote that was undertaken in the mid 90s was not to introduce the afternoon shift, it was to make an amendment to the way that shift work was going to be worked, which is in accordance with clause 9 of the enterprise agreement. Shift work had already been implemented several years before that vote was taken to amend the way that shift was being worked.
PN508
So if we were to delete the words "the introduction" and introduce "A change to the method", and then it goes on to read "of the afternoon shift was put to a vote" would that be accurate?---Correct.
PN509
Are there any other changes you wish to make to your statement?---No.
PN510
I tender the statement of Adrian Gallina dated 15 December.
PN511
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. No objection Mr Noble?
PN512
MR NOBLE: No, nothing.
PN513
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, the statement of Mr Gallina with the amendment to - that's paragraph 28?
**** ADRIAN GALLINA XN MR MANOS
PN514
MR MANOS: 27, your Honour.
PN515
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Can you just read the amendment please?
PN516
MR MANOS: Yes, the change that Mr Gallina has confirmed is in that first sentence. The deletion of the two words "The introduction".
PN517
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN518
MR MANOS: To be replaced with the words, "A change to the method".
PN519
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Yes, the statement of Mr Gallina with the amendment to paragraph 27 and with four attachments is marked SAPN 4.
EXHIBIT #SAPN4 STATEMENT OF ADRIAN GALLINA WITH AMENDED PARAGRAPH 27, DATED 15/12/2014 AND WITH FOUR ATTACHMENTS
MR MANOS: Your Honour, would you like me to ask Mr Gallina to make that change to his statement?
PN521
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It may be helpful if you're going to refer to it.
PN522
MR MANOS: Yes.
PN523
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Or perhaps if Mr Noble does.
PN524
MR MANOS: Yes.
PN525
Mr Gallina, I'm going to pass you a pen and just ask you to make that change. So just go to paragraph 27 perhaps?---Yes.
**** ADRIAN GALLINA XN MR MANOS
PN526
And put a neat line, just one line through the words "The introduction" and just write directly above it "A change to the method". Thank you.
PN527
I have no further questions for Mr Gallina.
PN528
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Thank you.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NOBLE [12.02PM]
MR NOBLE: Mr Gallina, from your statement at paragraph C - three, sorry, I see that you agree that the employees are - you haven't used the title but they're day workers and their standard hours are 7 am till 3.30 Monday to Friday with every second Friday a rostered day off. You don't find anything contentious in there?---No.
PN530
Now at four you state that, "In addition the employees although are required to be available after 3.30 pm on a Thursday to 7 am on the following Thursday once in every six weeks" and this is referred to as being on the availability or the availability roster. Is it your understanding that applies to all employees?---No, only those required to be on the availability roster.
PN531
Only those required, and is it your understanding that being on the availability roster is a requirement?---Yes.
PN532
Could I show Mr Gallina - actually can we do it from there? I'd just like to show you a section in the agreement because I think there is some confusion about this.
PN533
The clause is 7.15, your Honour. It's on page 62 of this copy of the agreement that I have. It's an attachment to - - -
PN534
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Which clause number is it, Mr Noble?
**** ADRIAN GALLINA XXN MR NOBLE
PN535
MR NOBLE: 7.15.
PN536
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.
PN537
MR NOBLE: It's titled Availability Incentive Payment Scheme.
PN538
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Thank you.
PN539
MR NOBLE: Now I would just like to get it clear in my head as much as anything. If it's a requirement to be on the availability roster then what's the purpose of clause 7.15?---That's not the roster.
PN540
But it's a payment scheme?---Yes, that's for additional volunteers to make themselves available outside the availability roster. So we had - we established an availability roster where we had the required resources for the year. That roster's published in advance. 7.15 applies where we made a - we ask for volunteers to provide additional assistance throughout the year in cases where we might have storms or peak demands and the - those that are rostered on the availability roster can't handle the workload that's expected to come through.
PN541
So what you're saying is employees will be on the availability roster. They will be timetabled, or however you put it, rostered onto the availability roster?---Yes.
PN542
And if you need more people to step up to that - - -?---Yes.
PN543
- - - and if they're working additional slots or timetables on the roster, is that when this kicks in?---No. No, no, this is an offer that's made by the organisation to supplement the availability roster from time to time and it - but it's - it doesn't form part of the availability roster that's - that I referred to in my statement 4.
**** ADRIAN GALLINA XXN MR NOBLE
PN544
All right.
PN545
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So can I just clarify that? So if you've got, say, three people rostered on then you might bring in another two on that particular shift - - -?---If assuming that - - -
PN546
- - - for someone who's not already rostered?---Correct. If assuming they've signed up to clause 7.15.
PN547
MR NOBLE: I note in 7.15 that the amount is $300 but I was given something which says it has now gone up to 1250. I mean, you're
aware of that, I take it?
---Yes, I am.
PN548
Yes, a not insignificant increase. Were you responsible for the drawing up of the rosters?---In conjunction with others, yes.
PN549
And how many - who were the others?---There was Terry Jackson.
PN550
Yes?---And an organisation called Shiftwork Solutions.
PN551
Shiftwork Solutions, and you've used them before, have you?---Yes, they assist us with the shift arrangements currently in place with the despatch group and the network cooperation centre.
PN552
Currently, as you've said here, the availability roster is one in every six weeks and that's being changed for some employees who will no longer be getting availability or required to do the availability roster. That's right, isn't it?---The - under the - - -
PN553
The new - under the new - - -?---Under the proposed arrangement - - -
**** ADRIAN GALLINA XXN MR NOBLE
PN554
Yes?---- - - it will go to a one in four so it coincides with the night shift arrangements, which is in line with the metropolitan afternoon shifts where they combine the availability in the afternoon shift.
PN555
But aren't there some also doing one in eight on the proposed arrangement?---I don't know.
PN556
You're not sure?---No.
PN557
At nine you say that, "Being on the availability roster has never been voluntary". But I put it to you the way that things have been organised over the past few years at the very least, that in practice it is voluntary, isn't it?---No, I disagree.
PN558
No it's what, sorry?---I disagree.
PN559
And why do you disagree with that?---Because employees are advised that they are required to be on the availability rosters and those rosters are published each year.
PN560
But - - -?---If employees - - -
PN561
Sorry?---If employees wish to come off that then it's considered, depending on a case by case scenario.
PN562
Which I think is evidence we had before?---Yes.
PN563
At clause 11 of your statement you've again mentioned Ben Jewell. Now are you aware that Ben hasn't worked availability, he has merely - was on the availability and that was for one night only when he covered for a Mr Barwell? Were you aware of that?---No.
**** ADRIAN GALLINA XXN MR NOBLE
PN564
Not at number 12 you say, "Planned overtime that employees work is voluntary". That's current I take it that you're talking about?---Correct. Yes.
PN565
Right. But currently it works to everyone's interests, doesn't it?---I don't know. It certainly doesn't work to the organisation's.
PN566
You talk about 13, "Because we cannot block off parts of the CBD or disconnect the power to the buildings or perform works to enlarge" - "a large amount of work needs to be done at nights or on Sundays". But what's the reason for this specifically for the CBD other than inconvenience to businesses?---Sorry, the reason for performing the work?
PN567
Well, peak demand is during the day?---Yes.
PN568
For the power. But this isn't particularly new, is it? I mean, this has been going on for, what, 40, I mean, 50 plus years?---Correct.
PN569
And over that period most of the infrastructure which has been there hasn't been replaced. It's the existed infrastructure, isn't it?---Correct.
PN570
It's particularly antiquated?---Yes.
PN571
Which is part of the problem I suppose?---Yes.
PN572
Now at 15 you talk about the 2013 financial year and you talk about the hours of work and 53,000 of those being ordinary hours, and then 9000 on stand down and 6000 (indistinct) of hours planned overtime?---Yes.
PN573
Within those hours that you've quoted there would have been a fair number of jobs which were at customer request, wouldn't there?---Quite possibly.
**** ADRIAN GALLINA XXN MR NOBLE
PN574
And those figures aren't broken down. Now I put it to you in that period - these are some of the larger ones that I've been told about. They include the Adelaide Oval, Harris Scarfe, Rundle Mall, Vic Square, 50 Flinders Street and I forget the pronunciation, Gouger Street, and these customers are paying a percentage - well, they're paying directly for the labour for the employees, the costs which you incur and then they're also paying a percentage on top of costs of that, aren't they?---I imagine they would.
PN575
Now at 16, I'm instructed that - looking at Ben it says he has done 46 hours of planned overtime. Where does the figure of 34 hours of unplanned overtime come from?---It comes directly from the type of job that Ben worked on and the account number that was used. So we're able to identify an unplanned job by the job number that the employees have recorded their times against.
PN576
But if he's performing an unplanned job that means he would have had to have been on availability, wouldn't it?---Not necessarily. Sometimes during times where we require additional resources a duty officer might do the ring around on those who are not on availability to see if anyone is willing to come in, and they attract a - different types of penalties because they're not on availability.
PN577
So they get - - -?---Well they get different minimum call outs.
PN578
Which are less or more?---More.
PN579
More. So you can't really tell from those hour figures. Now I was going to ask you a few more questions about 16.1 but I don't think it serves that much service, from what I understand about being on stand down and then hours worked and so on. There could be any number of reasons for that so I'll drop that. At 18 you say there are now 28 employees in the CBD in the work group and so the shift roster can be introduced. Just out of interest, a few years ago weren't there more than 28 employees in the CBD?
**** ADRIAN GALLINA XXN MR NOBLE
PN580
MR MANOS: Well, I object. Firstly, it might just be useful if my friend actually represents what that paragraph says. I think there was a slight misrepresentation there.
PN581
MR NOBLE: Sorry, I don't quite follow.
PN582
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Perhaps rephrase the question that you initially put about paragraph 18.
PN583
MR NOBLE: At paragraph 18 you say, "Now there are 28 employees in the CBD work group so a shift roster can be introduced". What's the minimum number of employees that you would need to introduce a shift roster?---The current proposal was based on 24.
PN584
24, but isn't - - -?---There - - -
PN585
Sorry?---There are more employees in the CBD work group than 28. There are now 28 that have either got an employment contract or that applied for a job that requires them to work shift.
PN586
So there's a few - it will be what, low 30s?---Yes, it's mid to the high 30s.
PN587
When you've - were you in any other positions with SAPN before February 2011?---Yes.
PN588
And they were in the human resources department?---Yes, they were.
PN589
So would you have any knowledge of when contracts or formal letters of offer were given or made to the employees, especially those who were apprentices and maybe external candidates, about whether or not the clauses relating to shift work would have been explained to them?---I don't know. I didn't make any of the offers myself.
**** ADRIAN GALLINA XXN MR NOBLE
PN590
You wouldn't recall any policy about running through the document?---No, I don't recall a - - -
PN591
To explain the conditions?---No, I don't recall a particular policy about that.
PN592
Okay?---The offer's always there to contact the leader or the person making the offer for any clarification.
PN593
So somebody was there?---Someone would have been - would have offered it to them.
PN594
Now at 26 over the page you say there's nothing in the enterprise agreement that requires SAPN to get agreement of the employees to introduce shift work. But you have to agree, don't you, that the practical effect of this is going to be a change in their working hours, their working weekly hours?---No, there's requirements they were to work a 36 hour week.
PN595
So you don't agree with that?---We're maintaining their standard hours, a 36 hour week and all the conditions that go along with it as per the enterprise agreement.
PN596
The availability roster change which is going to have to be implemented if it's meant to be four weeks and then they're doing this one week and then coming back onto the roster, which is three weeks, are they going to be paid a higher rate if they have less time off than the minimum break of four weeks?---No, I don't think so. If they voluntarily agree to shift - to undertake someone else's shift they will - they'll incur the appropriate shift penalties, otherwise they'd be working to the roster.
PN597
But I put it to you that the change to the availability roster would be a change to a roster which should require agreement?---No. If - this argument isn't about the availability roster, it's about the shift. They're two separate issues. The availability roster does not require agreement to make changes, unlike clause 9 relating to shift work. Availability rosters can be determined from time to time by business and operational requirements and can be established at the beginning of each year. If we were to make changes throughout the year then we would consult with the employees. We wouldn't necessarily have to get agreement.
**** ADRIAN GALLINA XXN MR NOBLE
PN598
Now at 29 you say that, "There were only six employees in the CBD work group who are not employed under a letter of offer that requires them to work shift work if directed, or they're also not subject to a job description that includes the requirement to work shift work, and as a consequence these employees will not be expected to work the shift roster. They will continue to work the standard hours on Monday to Friday plus availability." I put it to you that essentially what you're doing here is, together with paragraphs 27 and 28, is admitting that SAPN is relying on the common law contracts to introduce these changes?---No, the - we're not - 27 relates to the fact that we have complied with clause 9. It was a change to the method of working shift which was already in place. That didn't require a vote or agreement by employees when it was introduced. Clause 29 in fairness to those six employees who did not apply for have an employment contract, we've decided at this point in time to exclude them. However, the enterprise agreement may well provide for us to include those six, but at this point in time we're not, but we decided to leave those out of the equation.
PN599
Okay, thank you. At 32 you state that, "The proposed roster will require employees to work on a Sunday day and at night Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday"?---Yes.
PN600
Isn't that, the requirement to work on the Sunday, isn't that a fundamental change to the day roster?---Well currently their day roster is Monday to Friday. The shift proposed would include the Sunday. What it means is that there are some employees who work more Sundays at the moment than others, but this would equalise the requirement to work either a Sunday day shift or a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday night shift across the 24 employees on the roster.
PN601
Till now you've never forced people to work on Sundays, have you?---No, not that I'm aware of.
**** ADRIAN GALLINA XXN MR NOBLE
PN602
Well I put it to you that a requirement to work those hours is well outside their ordinary hours and therefore requires agreement of the affected employees, as per clause - I think it's 9.7.2.1, which you are no doubt familiar with?---I disagree.
PN603
You disagree?---Yes. That 9.7.2.1 deals with changes to the methods of working shifts once they have been determined and required by the business.
PN604
Okay, thank you. What are the current requirements for - arrangements for working on the availability roster?---I don't understand your question.
PN605
It's changing, but it's changing from one in six isn't it, is that right?---Yes.
PN606
Which everybody performs a one in six, don't they?---Not everyone. Those required to be on the availability roster. Sometimes in many depots, but not all, you have more resources than what's required to man the availability roster and that is the case in the CBD.
PN607
Right?---So those that are required are on the roster.
PN608
But I think as we concluded earlier that the new roster is going to see a one in four?---Yes.
PN609
Some others on none and then there are a few on eight, one in eight?---Yes.
PN610
So this is going to make it really quite difficult to swap shifts compared to as it currently is, isn't it?---I don't know.
PN611
And again I put it to you that this requires agreement?---No.
PN612
Looking at what you've said here, talking about the roster expressed by the letter A, you go on to say, "We still need coverage even if employees are working nights from, for example, 8 pm to 4 am because we still need people to be able to attend to a breakdown between 11.30" - I'm sorry, "3.30 pm and 8 and then again at 4 am till 7 am"?---Yes.
**** ADRIAN GALLINA XXN MR NOBLE
PN613
So they're the hours either side of the night shift?---Correct.
PN614
So essentially what you're - by your own admission here there could be instances arising where they're required to work a number of hours before commencing a night shift and then they will still have to perform the night shift they're rostered. That's correct isn't it?---Yes, that's correct and in line with our current afternoon shift and availability arrangements in the metropolitan supply restoration depots.
PN615
All right, and then of course there's the three hours after 4 o'clock til 7 o'clock as well?---Correct.
PN616
Remaining at the end of the night shift?---Yes.
PN617
So if an employee - I have a question for you here. If an employee is called out while on night shift but they're also on the availability roster and they get called out prior to their night shift commencing; that scenario, so they start between 3.30 and eight at some point?---Yes.
PN618
Do they continue to be paid at overtime rates when their night shift commences?
---No, and that's as per the current arrangements that are in place with our afternoon shift availability people.
PN619
You refer at 37 to the - are you okay?---Yes. Yes.
PN620
All right, the fatigue management - what do you call it, system or?
PN621
It's not in place yet is it?---Yes.
PN622
You know, as a directive or policy?---Yes, we've had one for many years.
**** ADRIAN GALLINA XXN MR NOBLE
PN623
But hasn't - you refer at 41 - I'll go back a little bit in a minute but you say currently your fatigue management directive focuses on the number of hours an employee spends at work. But hasn't - I've been instructed that the fatigue management directive has been removed from the Intranet. They're known as B15 and C15. Are you aware of that?---I'm not aware of that, no.
PN624
And that nothing else has been put in their place?---It's my understanding is that the current fatigue risk management system, which is based on the number of hours and overtime hours worked, is still applicable until the new one is implemented.
PN625
But do you know what I'm talking about when I say B15 and C15?---I - I'm not sure about C15 but B15 I think relates to the 700 hours of overtime. If you've got one in front of you there you can correct - you can confirm that.
PN626
I was hoping you could enlighten me a bit more actually. At 40 you say, "Our system supports employees to speak up if they feel fatigued"?---Yes.
PN627
"Where they do feel fatigued they will be stood down and someone else may be called in to work"?---Yes.
PN628
How many times does an employee - may an employee be stood down for reasons of fatigue before counselling or potentially disciplinary action might be taken against them?---It depends on the circumstances leading to why that employee is fatigued. It's not - I can't provide you a clear answer on that.
PN629
At 42 you said, "There was an extensive process of consultation gone through between Mr Jackson, myself and the CEPU". I put it to you that's not quite true, is it? There was no real discussion of alternatives as to what you're proposing here. Individual matters haven't been considered, have they?---Yes, they have. They may not be - the resolution and the outcome of those considerations may not be to the employees' liking but they were certainly considered.
**** ADRIAN GALLINA XXN MR NOBLE
PN630
Was there discussion with the affected employees?---By who?
PN631
Well, you say yourself and Mr Jackson?---Well, okay.
PN632
With the CEPU?---So Mr Jackson did have some discussions with his employees.
PN633
Wasn't there just - there was a meeting at Keswick where they took on board the employees' suggestions? Were you there at that one?---Yes, I was at most meetings.
PN634
And then you later came back with the answer, "No"?---Mm'hm.
PN635
You remember that?---Yes, I don't have the exact details in front of me but I vaguely remember a couple of suggestions that were put forward by the CEPU on behalf of the employees which were considered and we responded in writing, explaining why we couldn't undertake those or couldn't get those - implement those suggestions that were provided to us.
PN636
Okay, almost finished. All right, at 44; I put it to you that - you say you haven't had any feedback or concerns about, you know, people being unhappy working nights. But I put it to you that the main reason you haven't received feedback or concerns about them being unhappy is because they've simply had the choice to do the work or not?---I don't know. Possibly.
PN637
Now at 45, I think it's the second to last sentence you say, "Employees in the CBD work group are currently paid more than other linesmen and do work alongside those linesmen from time to time". Well, that's not correct is it?---Well I can clarify that if you like?
PN638
Well, the base rate's the same isn't it?---No. These employees receive an additional skills loading on top of their base rate which form part of their base rate and for overtime, annual leave purposes, superannuation calculations et cetera.
**** ADRIAN GALLINA XXN MR NOBLE
PN639
A skills based allowance?---Loading, for all purposes.
PN640
Yes, but it's a recognition for their skills and then for all purposes, and then it goes on to the loadings. But the base rate, they start off at the same base rate. It's just that then those who have the skills, there's recognition for those skills and they get paid accordingly - - -?---Yes.
PN641
- - - an allowance for that?---Yes, which is different to other linesmen.
PN642
Yes, but if the other linesmen also had those skills then they would get them as well?---Well, it's restricted to the CBD. Other linesmen don't have the skills that the CBD workers have.
PN643
Are you sure about that?---So when they're working - yes. Well, that's right. This is a specialised work group that undertake specialised work in the CBD, and not every linesman is trained and able to perform the full range of activities.
PN644
I understand that?---So when these - when they are working with other linesmen from outside of the CBD they are incurring their penalty rates et cetera at a higher rate than the person who's working alongside of them.
PN645
Yes, this allowance from what I've been instructed is to do with lead jointing and transmission jointing which is peculiar to mainly the CBD. It does go on elsewhere but mainly in the CBD?---Correct.
PN646
Yes. I don't have any further questions. Thank you.
PN647
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.
PN648
MR MANOS: No re-examination.
**** ADRIAN GALLINA XXN MR NOBLE
PN649
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, thank you Mr Gallina. You can sit down.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.35PM]
MR MANOS: I don't have any further witnesses to call today. I have the two more witnesses tomorrow morning, your Honour.
PN651
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. So is there anything else to do today?
PN652
MR MANOS: From my perspective, nothing further to be dealt with today and perhaps the matter could be adjourned off.
PN653
MR NOBLE: Can I - - -
PN654
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Likewise?
PN655
MR NOBLE: - - - again say - - -
PN656
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, so tomorrow there are the two witnesses and closing submissions basically?
PN657
MR MANOS: Yes, I expect we'll be done by lunch time.
PN658
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, we'll reconvene at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.
<ADJOURNED UNTIL TUESDAY, 23 DECEMBER 2014 [12.36PM]
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs
EXHIBIT #CEPU1 WITNESS STATEMENT OF JOHN ADLEY WITH FIVE ATTACHMENTS PN24
ANDREW PETER NAGEL, SWORN PN27
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR NOBLE PN27
EXHIBIT #CEPU2 WITNESS STATEMENT OF PETER NAGEL WITH ONE ATTACHMENT PN34
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MANOS PN35
EXHIBIT #SAPN1 JOB DESCRIPTION FOR A WORKS COORDINATOR PN64
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NOBLE PN155
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN174
STEVEN JOSEPH PAGLIESE, AFFIRMED PN178
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR NOBLE PN178
EXHIBIT #CEPU3 WITNESS STATEMENT OF STEVEN PAGLIESE PN186
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MANOS PN186
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN230
ADAM EDWARD SMITH, SWORN PN232
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR NOBLE PN232
EXHIBIT #CEPU4 WITNESS STATEMENT OF ADAM SMITH WITH ATTACHMENTS OF SEVEN PAGES PN240
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MANOS PN240
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN298
BENJAMIN LAWRENCE JEWELL, SWORN PN300
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR NOBLE PN300
EXHIBIT #CEPU5 WITNESS STATEMENT OF BENJAMIN JEWELL PN317
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MANOS PN319
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN358
EXHIBIT #SAPN2 WITNESS STATEMENT OF TIM SCUTTER PN392
TERRY JOHN JACKSON, AFFIRMATION PN394
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MANOS PN394
EXHIBIT #SAPN3 WITNESS STATEMENT OF TERRY JACKSON DATED 15/12/2014, WITH THREE ATTACHMENTS PN402
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NOBLE PN406
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN504
ADRIAN GALLINA, SWORN PN505
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MANOS PN505
EXHIBIT #SAPN4 STATEMENT OF ADRIAN GALLINA WITH AMENDED PARAGRAPH 27, DATED 15/12/2014 AND WITH FOUR ATTACHMENTS PN520
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NOBLE PN529
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN650
AustLII:
Copyright Policy
|
Disclaimers
|
Privacy Policy
|
Feedback
URL: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/FWCTrans/2015/6.html