C2015/4087, Transcript of Proceedings [2015] FWCTrans 713 (23 December 2015)

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Fair Work Act 2009 1052796

---

COMMISSIONER LEE

C2015/4087

s.739 - Application to deal with a dispute

Automotive, Food, Metals, Engineering, Printing and Kindred Industries Union" known as the Australian Manufacturing Workers' Union (AMWU)

and

Simplot Australia Pty Limited

(C2015/4087)

Launceston - Family Court

10.00 AM, TUESDAY, 1 DECEMBER 2015

PN1

THE COMMISSIONER: Good morning (indistinct).

PN2

MR M NGUYEN: Commissioner, Mr Nguyen, initial M, appearing for the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union. I also appear with the national secretary of our food division, Mr T Hale.

PN3

THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks Mr Nguyen.

PN4

MR M MEAD: May it please the Commission, my name is Mead initial M. I appear on behalf of the Australian Industry Group for the respondent Simplot. With me is Ms P Kashmirian also from the Australian Industry Group, Mr D West and Ms S King.

PN5

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes Mr Nguyen?

PN6

MR NGUYEN: Commissioner, we're intending to call Mr Darren Gale as a witness.

PN7

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN8

MR NGUYEN: He's just outside.

PN9

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Is the other witness in the room?

PN10

SPEAKER: No, he's not.

PN11

THE COMMISSIONER: I see.

PN12

THE ASSOCIATE: I'll just get you to state your name please for the Commission. Please state your full name and address.

PN13

MR GALE: It's Darren John Gale (address supplied).

<DARREN JOHN GALE, AFFIRMED [10.02 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR NGUYEN [10.02 AM]

*** DARREN JOHN GALE XN MR NGUYEN

PN14

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Nguyen.

PN15

MR NGUYEN: All right Mr Gale, did you prepare a statement for these proceedings?‑‑‑I did.

PN16

Do you have a copy of it with you?‑‑‑I have that, yes.

PN17

Yes, and what date is the statement?‑‑‑The 1st of October 2015.

PN18

And how many paragraphs does the statement have?‑‑‑63.

PN19

And would you like to make any changes to that statement?‑‑‑There's three small amendments that I would like to make in paragraph 5. There are also three people in the store who do the store - day to day stock taking and ordering of parts and invoices, transactions for purchase of parts, and one of them is under the agreement which I currently have here too. One of them who is the team leader who is not under the agreement and we do have one labour hire employee. That's all for paragraph 5. Paragraph 7, we don't look after the - - -

PN20

Sorry?‑‑‑Yes.

PN21

Yes, before you go to paragraph 7 so I just confirm you want to replace the second sentence with:

PN22

One of them are under the agreement, one who is the team leader is a staff member who is not under the agreement

PN23

?‑‑‑Yes.

PN24

"And one labour hire employee"?‑‑‑Correct.

PN25

Sorry, please continue?‑‑‑Yes, at paragraph 7 we don't look after the maintenance of the fuel service any more because there are - a person from Simplot Harvesters except - this is the department (indistinct) - except for after hours and weekends when the shift fitters perform these repairs.

*** DARREN JOHN GALE XN MR NGUYEN

PN26

So I'll just confirm you want to add before the full stop and after the word "Harvesters":

PN27

Except for after hours and weekends when shift fitters perform the repairs.

PN28

?‑‑‑Yes, and in paragraph 19 where I have "We could build access platforms" I'd like to change it to "We have built structural steel access platforms going through to access the equipment.

PN29

So I'll just confirm that paragraph 19 you want to delete the words "could build" and replace them with "Have built structural steel"?‑‑‑Yes.

PN30

Is the statement currently as amended by you true and correct, Mr Gale?‑‑‑Yes.

PN31

Commissioner, the union seeks to tender Mr Gale's statement as amended.

PN32

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, so there's no objection to that?

PN33

MR MEAD: No, Commissioner.

PN34

THE COMMISSIONER: No. I'll mark that as N1.

EXHIBIT #N1 WITNESS STATEMENT OF DARREN JOHN GALE

PN35

MR NGUYEN: No further questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS KASHMIRIAN [10.05 AM]

PN36

MS KASHMIRIAN: Good morning Mr Gale. I've just got a couple of questions for you. I represent the respondent Simplot. Hopefully I won't take too much of your time but there's just a couple of things that I want to go through in the statement with you, if that's okay?‑‑‑Yes.

PN37

Now you've got a copy of that in front of you, don't you?‑‑‑I do.

PN38

Okay, so you've been employed at Simplot for about three and a half years, is that right?‑‑‑It will be four in January. Full‑time.

*** DARREN JOHN GALE XXN MS KASHMIRIAN

PN39

Yes, and you're a fitter and turner?‑‑‑Yes.

PN40

Okay, and would you just mind giving me a bit of an overview of what a fitter and turner does?‑‑‑A fitter and turner is the mechanical (indistinct) person who has the ability to perform machining work as well, which would be milling, lathe work, planers, (indistinct), plus the normal mechanical duties that a fitter would perform. So I'm sort of like a dual role. I can do the machining side of it but the mechanical repairs we can do as well.

PN41

Mr Gale, are you familiar with the classifications in the 2014 national collective agreement, so the C classifications in there?‑‑‑Some of, yes.

PN42

Okay, and are you aware of what your C classification is?‑‑‑Currently I'm classed as C8.

PN43

And are you aware of what C classifications the other maintenance employees are classified as?‑‑‑Most of, yes.

PN44

And what are they?‑‑‑Most - well, there's three others that are currently on C8.

PN45

Yes?‑‑‑We have - off the top of my head we probably have another four approximately, don't quote me, that would be on C7 and then the shift fitters are all on C6.

PN46

Thank you, and how many shift fitters are there roughly?‑‑‑We have eight.

PN47

So when Mr Nguyen was asking you a few questions in relation to your statement and he asked you if there was anything in your statement that you wanted to change, and I recall that you wanted to change some numbering in paragraph 5. Do you recall that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN48

THE COMMISSIONER: Paragraph 6?‑‑‑No, paragraph 5.

PN49

MS KASHMIRIAN: Sorry, Commissioner, I've got paragraph 5 so I think the witness' evidence was that there are three people, one under the agreement, one team leader and one labour hire employee.

PN50

THE COMMISSIONER: My mistake (indistinct).

*** DARREN JOHN GALE XXN MS KASHMIRIAN

PN51

MS KASHMIRIAN: Is that correct, Mr Gale?‑‑‑Yes.

PN52

It's a yes, isn't it. Now on that, you're aware aren't you that there was a restructure recently, wasn't there?‑‑‑It's an ongoing restructure I believe.

PN53

And so a nubmer of employees have been made redundant?‑‑‑There has been.

PN54

So look, I appreciate that you made your statement a few month ago but I just wanted to see whether you agree with me. If you wouldn't mind going to paragraph 3 of your statement. So page 2, the second half of paragraph 3?‑‑‑Yes.

PN55

So you say there:

PN56

There are two people in the machining shop doing (indistinct) and day to day machining work.

PN57

But there's only now one person in the machining shop isn't there?‑‑‑Colin Jordan is in there full‑time.

PN58

Yes?‑‑‑Peter Costello has the jurisdiction of the granule day fitter. So his role at the moment is he goes down and he does the granule checks.

PN59

Yes?‑‑‑When he finishes those he returns to the machine shop to continue on with (indistinct).

PN60

Okay, but Mr Jordan or Colin is the employee that is in the machining shop, is he?‑‑‑He's our full‑time - - -

PN61

Machining guy?‑‑‑Machining guy, yes.

PN62

Thank you, and so in your statement - and I'll refer you to the paragraph. It's probably easier if I do that for you. So I'm at paragraph 2?‑‑‑Right.

PN63

So you say that you're a day worker and that you work in the raw material and filler section?‑‑‑I was at that time. I've been since moved into the cutter deck.

*** DARREN JOHN GALE XXN MS KASHMIRIAN

PN64

Okay, and so how long have you been in the cutter deck for?‑‑‑That's a good question. (Indistinct) time. It'd be four or five weeks that I've been in there, maybe more.

PN65

So, recently?‑‑‑Yes.

PN66

And so I just want to clarify so you started off in the raw material and filler section?‑‑‑Yes.

PN67

And so you worked there for let's say almost three and a half years shy of the five weeks and then you've now been moved into the cutter deck. Is that correct?‑‑‑Correct.

PN68

Okay and so am I right in that you don't move back and forth between the two sections, do you?‑‑‑Not as a rule, no.

PN69

So now you're in the cutter deck and that's your area that you work in?‑‑‑Only till they see fit to move me somewhere else. Yes.

PN70

Sure, yes. Thank you, and so you've only worked in these two sections haven't you?‑‑‑As a day worker, yes. But I've done shift cover throughout the plant so on shift cover you get access to the whole plant. You don't just get restricted to one area. So you - yes, you maintain equipment throughout the whole plant.

PN71

But your usual job or your day job is or was predominantly in the raw materials and filler section and now in cutter, is that correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN72

And so when you say in your statement that you make you're statement based on information - pardon me, sorry, you make the statement from your knowledge except where you've indicated otherwise. Am I correct then that the knowledge you're referring to is your direct experience working in the raw material and the filler section and the cutter deck?‑‑‑Most of, yes.

PN73

And I want to ask you about the equipment in the cutter deck if I can. I've got a list that I'll read from and you let me know if that's correct. I just want to get a bit of an idea of the equipment that you're currently looking after at the moment?‑‑‑Yes.

PN74

Just bear with me, Mr Gale. So you look after the scroll graders?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DARREN JOHN GALE XXN MS KASHMIRIAN

PN75

(Indistinct)?‑‑‑Yes.

PN76

Shaker?‑‑‑Yes.

PN77

Sliver removers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN78

Nubbin grader?‑‑‑Yes.

PN79

Is that how you pronounce it, nubbin?‑‑‑Yes it is.

PN80

Collection conveyor?‑‑‑I'm not a hundred per cent on that. I'm not sure because there are other conveyors that are for collection purposes.

PN81

All right. How about the incline conveyor?‑‑‑Yes.

PN82

And then I've got the Visionair cameras. So those are the ones that monitor whether the - - -?‑‑‑Sorters, yes.

PN83

Exactly, the sorters. The white flesh takeout?‑‑‑Yes.

PN84

And the blancher, that's yours as well isn't it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN85

And the dip tank, is that correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN86

And so when you were in - is that a reflection or an accurate reflection of the equipment in the cutter deck?‑‑‑Certainly part of, yes. Not all of it, but.

PN87

Okay, and so when you were in the raw materials and filler section - bear with me, I'll go through the equipment in that area as well - you were responsible for the stone remover?‑‑‑Yes.

PN88

(Indistinct) washer?‑‑‑Yes.

PN89

Wood remover?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DARREN JOHN GALE XXN MS KASHMIRIAN

PN90

Scroll graders?‑‑‑Yes.

PN91

Raw material bunkers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN92

Steam peeler?‑‑‑Yes.

PN93

De-skinner?‑‑‑Yes.

PN94

Barrel washer?‑‑‑Yes.

PN95

Whole potato sorter?‑‑‑Yes.

PN96

Pump to re-peel?‑‑‑Yes.

PN97

The pulse?‑‑‑Yes.

PN98

And the even flow tank, is that correct?‑‑‑No, the even flow comes under the cutter deck.

PN99

Pardon me, so that's - - -?‑‑‑You've got the - yes.

PN100

Yes, just missed it by that much?‑‑‑Yes.

PN101

I will just then add that to the cutter deck equipment then it will be (indistinct)?‑‑‑(Indistinct reply)

PN102

Would that be accurate?‑‑‑Yes.

PN103

So in your statement, Mr Gale, you have described at various parts maintenance work or maintenance work that you carry out and the activities that you perform. That's correct, isn't it?‑‑‑Some of the duties, yes.

PN104

Yes, and certainly when you say some of the duties you mean that that's snapshot, it's not all of the duties. Is that right?‑‑‑It's just an example of some of the stuff that I do.

*** DARREN JOHN GALE XXN MS KASHMIRIAN

PN105

Okay, and so when you say it's an example of some of the stuff that you do, that's in the context of you working in the RM and peeler section and the cutter deck, isn't it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN106

I want to take you through, if I can the process of converting the spud, or the potato, the lifecycle of - I guess the life process that the spud goes on when it - it comes into the factory and then it's converted into a consumable product and then packaged. So the Ulverstone factory produces packaged frozen potato products, doesn't it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN107

Some of those products are frozen French fries?‑‑‑Yes.

PN108

Hash browns?‑‑‑Hash browns.

PN109

Coated French fries?‑‑‑Pardon.

PN110

Coated French fries?‑‑‑We do that.

PN111

Potato gems?‑‑‑Yes.

PN112

Then you have a value-added line, don't you, which deals with the instant mashed potato and potato starch?‑‑‑Yes.

PN113

A reflection what's produced at the Ulverstone site - I've got a flow chart that I would like to give to you and I will take you through it. It is essentially from the quality control manual, and I just want to take you through it, and you tell me if it's an accurate reflection of, I suppose, the lifecycle of the spud going through the production line and then ending up in the sellable product. Have you seen that document before?‑‑‑No.

PN114

Except when I tell you that it's from the quality control - it's a document that's been provided to me from Mr (indistinct) so just accept that's from that - I appreciate you haven't seen it. So, at the start of the process you start off in the (indistinct) peeler section, that's correct isn't it?‑‑‑Correct.

PN115

We talked about stone removers before, which is essentially where spuds are put through the stone remover machine and the stones are removed. Make sense?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DARREN JOHN GALE XXN MS KASHMIRIAN

PN116

Barrel washer where the potatoes are washed?‑‑‑Yes.

PN117

Wood remover, it's pretty self-explanatory what that does?‑‑‑Yes.

PN118

Scroll grader. So they size the potatoes don't they?‑‑‑They do, yes.

PN119

The larger ones will get put together and the smaller ones will get put together, that's correct isn't it?‑‑‑Correct.

PN120

Raw material bunkers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN121

That's where the potatoes are stored. Then the steam peeler where essentially steam is used to burst the skin off the potatoes, that's correct isn't it?‑‑‑Soften the skin off, yes.

PN122

Pardon me, soften the skin. Then the de-skinner will remove the excess peel?‑‑‑Yes.

PN123

Then you've got the barrel washer which is kind of the third line of defence where it gets rid of all the lice, bits and bots of the skin, that's correct isn't it?‑‑‑Yes, meant to.

PN124

Then you've got the whole potato sorter. So that removes the green and the rotten potatoes, and that's an automated process isn't it?‑‑‑It is.

PN125

Then you've got (indistinct) re-peeler. So that's, I'm assuming, where there's some potatoes that have not been properly peeled all go back to that?‑‑‑They're taken by a conveyor system to the re-peeler, so anything with excess peel gets put back through the re-peeler, and then it's put back into the line to be regraded. It's not done by a pump, but it's close.

PN126

So when you say it goes to - it goes through those steps again doesn't it?‑‑‑It will go through barrel washer back through the (indistinct) whole potato sorter.

PN127

Just turning over. Then you've got the pulse. That's relatively new, isn't it, the pulse, that's something that's just come in?‑‑‑It - - -

*** DARREN JOHN GALE XXN MS KASHMIRIAN

PN128

Past 18 months or so?‑‑‑Yes.

PN129

That is supposed to tenderise the potato?‑‑‑Yes, to release the starch in it, just softens the structure of the potato.

PN130

That is really in the line one line, isn't it, that that pulse machine is only the line one. Line two doesn't have it?‑‑‑No.

PN131

Then the next step is the (indistinct) flow tank which holds the potato, and this is where the (indistinct) starts you said?‑‑‑Correct.

PN132

Then you've got scroll graders which again grades the potatoes into sizes, water knives which cut the potatoes into strips, shaker?‑‑‑Yes.

PN133

Which gets the excess water off the strips. Sliver and (indistinct) which removes the slivers of potato?‑‑‑Yes.

PN134

The nubbin grater which removes the short and uneven fries, and then you'll see there the value-add in granule add process, and that's correct, isn't it, that the nubbins will go to the value-add and the granule process lines to be converted into starch or mashed potato?‑‑‑A lot of the slivers and nubbins will be first of all, prior to going through our value-added into hash browns, if they don't make the grade there then they (indistinct).

PN135

Then the collection conveyor which accumulates the strips, incline conveyor. So that transfers the fries. So what does that actually do, that incline conveyor Mr Gale?‑‑‑Just transports things up to a higher level. We can't keep everything on an even playing field so we've got to get some stuff up to a secondary level, so that's what that's for.

PN136

So that's hence the incline. Makes sense. Then you've got the vision air cameras which photographs and clears the defective strips, light flash takeout which takes additional products off the line to (indistinct) the value-added line. You agree with that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN137

Then you've got the blancher which blanches the strips. Agreed?‑‑‑Yes.

PN138

Then the dip tank which applies SAPP and dextrose to the fries?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DARREN JOHN GALE XXN MS KASHMIRIAN

PN139

Then you've got the dry section. I appreciate that you've not worked - your day job is not in the dry section, but I'll take you through it and if there's anything that you don't know you let me know in the process. So then the fries are dried in the dryer?‑‑‑Correct.

PN140

Then they're put on the equilibrium belt?‑‑‑Yes.

PN141

Which transfers the strips to the fryer, then they're fried?‑‑‑Yes.

PN142

Oil (indistinct) removes excess crumbs?‑‑‑Yes.

PN143

Then pre-cool cools fries before freezing. Then the fries go on a conveyor belt, don't they, and then they go through the freezer, that's correct isn't it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN144

Then grading screens grade strips to appropriate lengths, and then there's a couple more steps in that process, which I won't detail, but essentially what happens then is the fries get weighed?‑‑‑It does.

PN145

That's correct?‑‑‑(Indistinct reply)

PN146

Then the bags are filled with the fries?‑‑‑Correct.

PN147

Then, jumping forward because this is quite a long procedure, but please take your time to have a look at it, essentially then what happens is the fries are packaged in whatever package there might be, golden crunch, Macca's fries, and then they're put into boxes and the boxes are put onto pallets and the pallets are covered in shrink wrap. That's correct isn't it?‑‑‑Yes, they'll go into the secondary (indistinct) for retention time where the product is brought down to the required temperature, and then it's sent out through dispatch. It has a retention time in those separate (indistinct).

PN148

That's a pretty accurate picture of I suppose when the raw product enters the factory the spud (indistinct) being produced into French fries or hash browns or mashed potatoes, what-have-you, and then packaged and dispatched?‑‑‑Yes.

PN149

I want to talk to about paragraph 2 of your statement, and I apologise, I'm jumping all over the place. I just want to get a bit of clarity from you around where you say maintenance area leader for raw material. My understanding is that - so now you'd be an area leader for the cutter deck, but that's only on maintenance and shutdown days isn't it?‑‑‑It is.

*** DARREN JOHN GALE XXN MS KASHMIRIAN

PN150

On those days you say that you receive about $1.25 an hour for performing those area leading tasks. Is that correct?‑‑‑I do, yes.

PN151

So as an area leader on maintenance and shutdown days, am I right, that your role is to oversee a number of labour hire employees and contractors on those days in the cutter deck area?‑‑‑Yes, and employees if they're available.

PN152

I think you said in your statement that there was usually 20 or so employees that you oversee?‑‑‑It varies quite a bit, depending on the workload.

PN153

But essentially on the maintenance and shutdown days as an area leader you have, I guess, oversight of other employees?‑‑‑Yes.

PN154

That is limited to the cutter deck section isn't it?‑‑‑It is. You certainly share your information with your other - now that I've left the (indistinct) area, the guy that's taken over there has to learn the ropes and catch up with what I know, so I'm still sharing knowledge with him as well.

PN155

That makes sense, so perhaps I can put the question this way: when you have been area leader on maintenance and shutdown days you've been limited to the RM, raw material, and (indistinct) section when you were in that role, and now you're in the cutter deck area?‑‑‑Yes.

PN156

I want to bring your attention to paragraph 8 of the statement, if you can just go there for me. Just to clarify, that area leader role is only on the maintenance and shutdown days, so on normal days that are not maintenance and shutdown you wouldn't be an area leader would you?‑‑‑No, we don't (indistinct).

PN157

I just wanted to check with you, in paragraph 8 of your statement, at the top, and I'll read it for you, you say, "I do daily checks as part of preventative maintenance, machining, general fitting work and other area leading work." But that is not correct is it because you're only doing area leading work on maintenance and shutdown days, don't you?‑‑‑No, we do shutdown preparation work which is normally a couple of days before. (Indistinct) manual shut, and a major shut, then that will probably be leading right through the whole week. We're always preparing for maintenance days, even if it's only just finished (indistinct) every three weeks at the moment, but the moment one finishes we do start preparing for the next.

*** DARREN JOHN GALE XXN MS KASHMIRIAN

PN158

When you say you prepare for maintenance days, in that preparation are you overseeing other employees?‑‑‑No.

PN159

Do you get paid the $1.25 leading hand, that area (indistinct) allowance?‑‑‑(No audible reply)

PN160

So perhaps then would it be more accurate then if you're sort of saying that you do area leading work on those non-maintenance days would it be more accurate to say that you're a day figure but in the lead up to maintenance and shutdowns you are performing planning in relation to those maintenance and shutdown days?‑‑‑Step and plan, yes.

PN161

I want to take you to maintenance days and shutdown days but before we go there I just want to clarify, in terms of your daily role Mr Gale, on a day to day basis you do daily checks of the machines (indistinct) and cutter your area. That's correct isn't it?‑‑‑Correct.

PN162

Part of your role is to identify if there is anything wrong with the machines that you're responsible for?‑‑‑Correct.

PN163

Some of the maintenance issues that you might identify during these daily checks will be urgent?‑‑‑Yes.

PN164

By virtue of it being urgent production will need to be stopped in order to rectify the issue immediately. That's correct isn't it?‑‑‑We give them the choice. If it is determined that it is critical and it will fail very quickly then we will organise to get the line shut down (indistinct) so we can repair it. But we also give that (indistinct) to our team leader who will confer with process and say we have this issue, we would like to fix it, is it possible? Then they might say, no, we want to try and limp it through until there is a clean down later on in the day, or a line change (indistinct) change.

PN165

Let us go back to when it is determined I'm assuming by yourself in conjunction with the team leader in production that the production line needs to be stopped for this urgent repair, that's called a breaking, I think. Is that right?‑‑‑That is now a breaking of our schedules, yes.

PN166

So essentially production line closes, you break, you go on, you fix whatever maintenance issues that you need to because its critical, it's urgent?‑‑‑Yes.

PN167

Then the line goes back on, and I think the example that you give in your statement is in relation to a lower (indistinct). Can you recall that?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DARREN JOHN GALE XXN MS KASHMIRIAN

PN168

So I suppose that's one type of maintenance issue that you identified, but there is also another type of maintenance issue that you've identified, and you highlighted it before, where the maintenance issue doesn't require immediate rectification, correct, and (indistinct) before, I'm correct, aren't I, is that those maintenance issues that don't require immediate rectification, correct, and (indistinct) before, I'm correct, aren't I, is that those maintenance issues that don't require immediate rectification or a break in production are usually held off to the maintenance day or the shutdown day?‑‑‑We monitor that on a day to day basis to see if they will make it to the maintenance day. Clearly we have to judge it, and our team leader's judgment as well, as to whether it will make the distance. If it looks like it's going to fail and cause more damage then we have to stop.

PN169

But there are maintenance issues that you identify that can be held off to a maintenance day or a shutdown day. That's correct isn't it?‑‑‑Correct.

PN170

So essentially those maintenance issues, because they don't require immediate rectification, they're not urgent are they?‑‑‑No, they're not urgent but there is stuff that needs to be attended to as soon as possible.

PN171

When you say as soon as possible, and when you say attended to as soon as possible, are you relating to the line trim of that particular maintenance issue or is it that you're relating to actually having to jump into the production line and rectify the issue?‑‑‑No, what I mean is that we will identify it and we will continue to monitor it. If it progresses to a state where it's going to fail then we will address it instantly, or get a break in the line. Otherwise we will just continue to monitor it and see if we can make it through to the maintenance day. Then it will be repaired if we have enough manpower.

PN172

So those issues that you say that you hold off to a maintenance day, by virtue of the fact that you hold them off until maintenance day they're not urgent are they?‑‑‑At that stage they're not urgent.

PN173

Can I get you to go to paragraph 32 Mr Gale, of your statement. Let me know when you get there?‑‑‑Yes.

PN174

You state in paragraph 32 that you will get a list of names of area leaders or maintenance and shutdown down days, you'll get a list of names of tradespeople that are allocated to the cutter deck in your instance, and you'll get that list a few days before the maintenance day?‑‑‑Preferably.

*** DARREN JOHN GALE XXN MS KASHMIRIAN

PN175

You also say that you get the schedule of work on the Wednesday before the shutdown and you allocate those names to the work orders and such?‑‑‑Preferably. That's been getting a little bit later of recent time, the planning procedures has gone a little bit backwards.

PN176

So when you say, I suppose preferably, is that because ideally you'd like as much as you can to plan for those maintenance days?‑‑‑Yes.

PN177

And shutdown days?‑‑‑Yes.

PN178

Then in paragraph 33 you say that you normally schedule - we normally schedule, pardon me, about five hours during the weekly schedule to plan for a maintenance day. Is that correct?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN179

About 12 hours for an annual shutdown or bi-annual shutdown?‑‑‑Around about that, yes.

PN180

So you work an eight hour shift, don't you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN181

So five hours, that's approximately - it's almost three-quarters of a day to plan for a maintenance day, so it would be fair to say that there's a fair bit of planning and coordination that's involved in a maintenance day?‑‑‑There is.

PN182

Certainly I suppose that's (indistinct) for a shutdown period?‑‑‑Yes.

PN183

In paragraph 33 you also refer to job hazard analysis?‑‑‑Yes.

PN184

I just want to clarify with you when you say prior to the shutdowns are you referring to both maintenance and annual shutdowns?‑‑‑Yes.

PN185

That would be the same, then, for the (indistinct) as well which you mention?‑‑‑Correct.

PN186

I want to just hand you, if I may, a job hazard analysis. This is a pro forma. Commissioner, that was remiss of me, I forgot to tender the flow chart. May I tender that now?

PN187

THE COMMISSIONER: You've got no objection to that Mr Nguyen?

*** DARREN JOHN GALE XXN MS KASHMIRIAN

PN188

MR NGUYEN: No, Commissioner.

PN189

THE COMMISSIONER: (Indistinct).

PN190

MS KASHMIRIAN: Mr Gale, that job hazard analysis that's familiar to you isn't it?‑‑‑It is.

PN191

I'm sure you've completed many of those in your time at Simplot, haven't you?‑‑‑I - - -

PN192

But you have. So I just want to take you through that, or perhaps you could take me through it. So if you have a look at the top. So it's got work to be done. It's (indistinct) put the maintenance issue in that section?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN193

Then you've got location of work. So in your instance you'd put cutter deck?‑‑‑Yes, (indistinct) equipment. (Indistinct) so that we can identify it.

PN194

Then developed by Mr Gale?‑‑‑That quite often is myself or whoever is working on the pass at the time.

PN195

So if someone else has completed the job hazard analysis, am I right that you have oversight of that ultimately?‑‑‑We do, yes.

PN196

Then you have got high risk work permit required circle Y or N. I'm assuming that's yes or no, it's underneath the next row?‑‑‑Yes.

PN197

Am I right then in say that when you complete this job hazard analysis form it will prompt you as to whether or not you also need a high risk permit?‑‑‑It will.

PN198

So then there would be circumstances where you're completing - there would be usual circumstances where you're completing the job hazard analysis and then the high risk permit form as well?‑‑‑As part of the process, yes.

PN199

Then you list the activity and the hazards, risk control matters, who is responsible (indistinct) risks. So I've just gone across that. If I can just get you to turn to the back page, I suggest it's kind of got all the risks there that you need to take into consideration. That's correct isn't it?‑‑‑Some of.

*** DARREN JOHN GALE XXN MS KASHMIRIAN

PN200

So there's additional risks on top of that?‑‑‑Can be.

PN201

That is quite a lengthy list. For example, I think there's about 10 sub-risks, some (indistinct). Electrical there's about eight, mechanical there's about nine. So it's quite a lot of, I suppose, risks for you to consider in relation to a potential job that you're doing isn't it?‑‑‑It is.

PN202

So am I right that on maintenance and shutdown days you, on an estimate, complete 10 to 20 of these job hazard analysis?‑‑‑On a maintenance day, yes. Shutdown, a lot more.

PN203

So how many would it be on a shutdown?‑‑‑On shutdown you'd be upwards of 40 or 50.

PN204

Mr Gale I should have clarified. When I said 10 to 20 job hazard analysis, that's just in your cutter deck area isn't it?‑‑‑It is.

PN205

When you say in excess of 40 that's just in the cutter deck area?‑‑‑Yes. The (indistinct) was probably more of a high risk because there's a lot more crane permits, working at heights, confined space entries. So (indistinct) the cutter deck. So I'm hoping that my life is a lot easier (indistinct).

PN206

Mr Gale, I know you're now in the cutter deck area but if I can get you to cast your mind back six weeks or so when you were in the (indistinct) peeler section, how many job hazard analysis would be typically undertaken on a maintenance day in that peeler section?‑‑‑That would come back to what PMs we basically got given on that particular day.

PN207

THE COMMISSIONER: Preventative maintenance?‑‑‑Preventative maintenance, yes. So the work (indistinct) be generated and it would ask me to do inspections on the (indistinct) which means that there will be a confined space entry down the bottom of that. If I was working on the (indistinct) then there's a high risk permit and a JHA for that because you're working at heights. Frequently there was a lot of hot work out there as well. So it would vary greatly on the amount of work orders that I was given and what tasks are in those work orders.

PN208

MS KASHMIRIAN: Maybe I can put it this way: so I guess you've said that there's about 10 to 20 on any given maintenance day the JHAs, if I can call them that, the job hazard analysis, for the cut area that you work in. Would you say that the (indistinct) and peeler section would be dealt with that amount?‑‑‑It certainly has the potential to be. Again (indistinct) PMs I have to perform.

*** DARREN JOHN GALE XXN MS KASHMIRIAN

PN209

Can I tender that JHA document, Commissioner?

PN210

MR NGUYEN: No, objection.

PN211

THE COMMISSIONER: I'll mark the JHA job hazard analysis as K2.

EXHIBIT #K2 JOB HAZARD ANALYSIS DOCUMENT.

PN212

MS KASHMIRIAN: So then the high risk work permit, Mr Gale, and I won't hand it up to you but I will just go through, and you mentioned that working at heights you needs a work permit for?‑‑‑Correct.

PN213

Hot work you mentioned as well - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN214

- - - you need a permit for. Confined spaces?‑‑‑Yes.

PN215

Evacuation and trenching permit?‑‑‑Very rarely (indistinct).

PN216

So I suppose it's more in relation to the working at height hot work permit, and confined spaces you'd be concerned with?‑‑‑Yes, and crane in use.

PN217

Of course. So that in (indistinct) the 10 to 20 JHAs that you have to complete on maintenance and shutdown days you do have to complete on occasion during a normal work schedule of the JHA on a particular maintenance issue, that's right isn't it?‑‑‑My team leader likes to have them prepared prior. My gut feeling is I don't like to do any of that too much because I'm concerned, as I've said in my statement, I'd prefer to have the contractor's input because they might see things that I don't, and it should be part of the process (indistinct) and go through it with me.

PN218

But on a normal day, on a normal working day, so not a maintenance or shutdown day, are there tasks that you would perform, a maintenance task that you would perform, that you would have to complete a JHA for?‑‑‑Can be if it's a (indistinct) job.

PN219

But certainly there wouldn't be 10 to 20 on a given day?‑‑‑No.

*** DARREN JOHN GALE XXN MS KASHMIRIAN

PN220

Would it be 10 to 20 on a given week?‑‑‑Again, it comes back to what sort of breakdowns (indistinct).

PN221

In your experience?‑‑‑(Indistinct) go that far.

PN222

Thank you very much, that's all I've got for you.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUYEN [10.43 AM]

PN223

MR NGUYEN: Mr Gale, I just take you to paragraph 8. What does that mean, you have having a discussion with - earlier about when an issue might be urgent, and you were asked if issues were held off to maintenance days they were not urgent and you replied at that stage?‑‑‑Yes.

PN224

At what stage would it become urgent?‑‑‑That's when we'd make a determination between myself and the team leader as to our expectancy of this piece of equipment. If we feel that failure is imminent then we push the issue (indistinct) process and say this task has got to be fixed and if we don't fix it now then (indistinct). So we ask then that it becomes urgent.

PN225

What about when it's performed on the shutdown day?‑‑‑It's still critical because it's something you know that's going to fail eventually, we've been lucky to make it through to maintenance day. However, how much after that it (indistinct) is anyone's guess really.

PN226

(Indistinct) at what stage would repair of the equipment become urgent?‑‑‑When we know it's close to failure. We will make an assessment and determine if we continue at its present rate of degradation then it will last 10 hours, two days. We'll look at how we go as far as making it happen where we can fit it into the maintenance schedule, or the process schedule, sorry. If we can't fit into that and we'd still determine that it would be necessary then we will put a break in the line and fix it before it becomes a bigger issue.

PN227

I just want to focus in on the type of job that you asked about before, which is when it is deferred to the maintenance (indistinct) or the shutdown. At what stage then, once it's deferred, would it become urgent?‑‑‑Normally when we can get through to the maintenance day it's more good luck than good management. We will schedule it for the maintenance day because we know that if we get to there then we need to change it because two days after that when we start the process up then it could fail completely. So we'd make it as an urgent requirement and, yes, this is something that needs to be fixed, we'll do it then, if we make it to that maintenance day, and, as I said, if we make it to the maintenance day that's fine.

*** DARREN JOHN GALE RXN MR NGUYEN

PN228

So it's at that stage it would become urgent?‑‑‑Yes.

PN229

I'll just take you to paragraph 2 (indistinct) Mr Gale, you've read through this statement - when was the last time you read through this statement?‑‑‑I had a read through it on Friday and I also had a ready through it yesterday evening.

PN230

Paragraph 2, did you specifically read paragraph 2?‑‑‑I didn't take too much notice of that.

PN231

MS KASHMIRIAN: Objection. Your Honour, the witness has already said that he read his statement on Friday and yesterday evening.

PN232

MR NGUYEN: I will rephrase the question. How much attention did you pay to paragraph 2?‑‑‑I didn't really, to be honest.

PN233

Why was that?‑‑‑It's a history of what I hoped to and what I had done prior to coming to Simplot and it's an overview. What I've given there is a pretty accurate account.

PN234

Thank you, Mr Gale, no further questions.

PN235

THE COMMISSIONER: You're free to leave, Mr Gale, thank you very much, you can step down.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.49 AM]

PN236

MR MEAD: I believe my friend might have some objections to (indistinct) perhaps we'll deal with those objections before any (indistinct).

PN237

MR NGUYEN: Commissioner, I was going to object to paragraphs 51 and 56 to the extent that Mr Morrow is giving an opinion about what is considered large or complex, but in some evidence there's already been - or some statements have been made in Mr Gale's evidence as well about what he considers to be urgent, et cetera. So I was going to object to those paragraphs. I mean I guess our submission would be that the weight to be given to them should be given - afforded the weight that it should be given that those are potentially the issues that in contention before the Commission.

PN238

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

*** DARREN JOHN GALE RXN MR NGUYEN

PN239

MR NGUYEN: So I guess that's (indistinct).

PN240

THE COMMISSIONER: You don't object (indistinct)?

PN241

MR NGUYEN: That's right, Commissioner.

<COLIN GEORGE MORROW, AFFIRMED [10.51 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MEAD [10.51 AM]

PN242

MR MEAD: Good morning, Mr Morrow?‑‑‑Good morning.

PN243

It's correct isn't it that you've made - I withdraw that. Could you please state your full name and address for the record?‑‑‑Colin George Morrow, (address supplied).

PN244

Mr Morrow, it's correct that you've prepared a statement in relation to these proceedings?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN245

Do you have a copy of that statement with you?‑‑‑I do.

PN246

Just to confirm, that statement is in total 62 numbered paragraphs?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN247

It contains some eight annexures, so in total it's a statement of some 67 pages. Is that correct?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN248

Mr Morrow, I understand there are a number of corrections that you'd seek to make to your statement, is that correct?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN249

I might just take you to those paragraphs and you can advise the Commission how you would like those corrected. I understand the first correction you'd seek to make is to paragraph 26. Is that correct?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN250

Can you just advise the Commission of how you would seek to correct that paragraph?‑‑‑This one was just to correct some duplication of wording. So based upon skills equipment, licensing, (indistinct) maintenance work which would not normally be done by our maintenance team.

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW XN MR MEAD

PN251

Just to be clear, before the word "work" after the word (indistinct) in the first line you'd like to insert the word maintenance, is that correct?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN252

Then to delete the phrase "is connected to maintenance work which"?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN253

THE COMMISSIONER: What was the first amendment?

PN254

MR MEAD: On the first line, Commissioner, I understand that Mr Morrow seeks to insert the word maintenance towards the end of the first line, between the word, "of," so range of, insert the word maintenance. It presently says there is a range of work.

PN255

THE COMMISSIONER: So it's maintenance work.

PN256

MR MEAD: Yes. "Which" and then deleting the phrase "is connected to maintenance work which." For the record, the sentence would now read, "Based upon skills equipment, and licensing requirements there is a range of maintenance work which would not normally be done by our maintenance team and/or the maintenance (indistinct) other sites." Is that correct Mr Morrow?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN257

I understand there is a correction to paragraph 43 that you'd like (indistinct)?‑‑‑(Indistinct reply)

PN258

Yes?‑‑‑On the third line I make reference to an area fitter. It's up to the contractor to fill gap in our numbers as an area fitter and to use (indistinct) as per the NCA. In fact he was paid no less than the NCA. Just for clarification.

PN259

Do I understand there is a correction you also seek to make to your evidence at paragraph 56?‑‑‑I'd like to change the first line to a large maintenance activity. This (indistinct) that requires more resources than our normal team size can provide.

PN260

Does that then replace the first sentence of 56?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN261

Is there any further amendment you seek to make to 56?‑‑‑The second sentence I would like to replace with, "A complex maintenance activity is one that involves multiple tasks on multiple machines in a limited time frame."

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW XN MR MEAD

PN262

That then replaces the second sentence does it?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN263

Does the third sentence remain as it is Mr Morrow?‑‑‑Yes, that's right.

PN264

THE COMMISSIONER: Let's go back to the second sentence. So it's now reading "A complex maintenance task is one that involves multiples tasks. What was the rest?‑‑‑"On multiples machines in a limited time frame."

PN265

The first sentence is, "A large maintenance activity is one that requires more resources than our normal team size can provide."?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN266

Just read the witness the whole paragraph now Mr Mead.

PN267

MR MEAD: So it will now read, "A large maintenance activity is one that requires more resources than our normal team size can provide. A complex maintenance activity is one that involves multiples tasks, on multiple machines, in a limited time frame. The fundamental difference for work conducted by a maintenance day and a shutdown is that the machines need to be off." That is the new paragraph (indistinct) is that correct, Mr Morrow?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN268

Mr Morrow, with the exception of those corrections, is your statement, to the best of your knowledge, true and correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN269

We seek to tender the statement of Colin George Morrow undated by as described.

PN270

THE COMMISSIONER: (Indistinct) marked K3.

EXHIBIT #K3 STATEMENT OF C.G. MORROW UNDATED.

PN271

(Indistinct).

PN272

MR MEAD: Mr Morrow, there are just a number of aspects of your (indistinct) clarify if you may. Could I ask you to go to paragraph 11 of your statement? There at paragraph 11 you've got four subparagraphs (a), (b), (c) and (d) is limited to processing area, packaging area, the services area and field services, and you've identified the pieces of equipment that sit, and then it goes to (indistinct) paragraphs. Do you see that there?‑‑‑Yes.

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW XN MR MEAD

PN273

Can you just clarify for the Commission that where the various areas that I understand exist in the factory, so the RM (indistinct) session, the cutter deck, the dry fryer, et cetera, where I guess the starting and finishing point of those various pieces of equipment are as they attach to those operational areas off the plant?‑‑‑Yes, so in the first (indistinct) area the RPM (indistinct) area, starts at (indistinct) and stops at the potato (indistinct) in that list. I have the cutter deck starts at water knives and goes through to the dip tanks. And the dryer and fryer area goes from dryers through to the fryers. The last item, the freezer tunnels, were looked after by the services team.

PN274

I see?‑‑‑There's a couple of items in there that you will find in various areas, but that's pretty close to the order that the (indistinct) goes through the factory in the process area.

PN275

Yes, and I understand that in the service area, so subparagraph (c), the areas of the plant are essentially the boiler house, the engine room, the waste water treatment plant and the cogeneratino area. Are those the four broad areas that operate in the services section of the plant?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN276

Can you just assist the Commission in terms of identifying which pieces of equipment are attached to those areas?‑‑‑Okay. So the - when we talk about the boilers and the work of the boiler technician, he would look after the boilers 1 and 3, the (indistinct) steam distribution pipework, the (indistinct) recovery system, water softeners and then, if we skip down a few, you come to heat recovery, steam generator.

PN277

Yes, that's the boilers?‑‑‑So that's the boilers, that's the boiler technician, but also his team leader, we'd look after those items. The cogeneration plant is that cogeneration plant including the gas turbine that powered it. The waste water treatment plant, where I have written that including centrifuge (indistinct) tanks and screw press, that's the extent of that and refrigeration includes what we call the engine rooms that house the (indistinct) compressors, usually on top of those engine rooms or in evaporative condensers, cooling towers and then in the tunnels - the freezer tunnels - you would also have the evaporators which is part of the refrigeration system.

PN278

I see, thank you. Mr Morrow, can I ask you to move to paragraph 26 of your statement? Do you have that there, Mr Morrow?‑‑‑I do, yes.

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW XN MR MEAD

PN279

Paragraph 26, you provide some evidence about your assessment of the skills, equipment an/or licensing requirements that are possessed by your maintenance team and therefore renders particular types of maintenance work not normally done. Do you see that there?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN280

Can I just ask, is that an exhaustive list of maintenance work that would not normally be done by the maintenance team for those reasons?‑‑‑No, that's not exhaustive. That's really just quite a lot of examples. There would be - these would be other items that come up where we didn't have the skills and as legislation changes we find there's more and more things that we need to have an accredited person to do that we can't do ourselves on site.

PN281

Is there anything that comes to mind that might fit into that category in addition to what you've provided?‑‑‑I'd say lifting - inspection of lifting gear or the inspection of our personnel lift on site, for example.

PN282

Can I just ask you now to jump to exhibit 3A, please?‑‑‑Sorry, which one was that?

PN283

3A, it's on page 8 along with your statement, so it's the dated check sheet for refrigeration?‑‑‑Yes.

PN284

So I notice at item 2 of the daily check sheet, "Check compressor logs and readings", and then in "(5)", and above which there's an "M,T,W,TH,F"?‑‑‑Yes.

PN285

Can you just confirm what function those brackets have in performance of the daily check?‑‑‑Yes, that's really just to ensure that those things are checked every day. Some of these daily checklists, some items can be done at some stage during the week and maybe once but where those brackets are there, you check each day.

PN286

I see, and is that the same or different for the other daily checks as well, to the extent they also have a "M,T,W,TH,F"?‑‑‑Some may not. We are developing these at the moment and trying to get the work that the guys do on a daily basis documented thoroughly. So it's quite possible that some of the other areas do not have that daily requirement.

PN287

I see. But is it fair to say that where we've seen it in the daily check, it represents that that needs to be done daily as part of the process?‑‑‑Yes.

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW XN MR MEAD

PN288

Okay. Could I ask you to turn to CM7 now? CM7, must to refresh your memory Mr Morrow, is the risk of work orders that were completed on the maintenance day, 30 Oct 2015. You see under the column "Finished", "Finish date", the fourth column from the right-hand side of the page indicates 30th of the 10th 2015 as the date of completion of all those maintenance tasks?‑‑‑Yes.

PN289

Can I ask you to assist me then, there are some (indistinct) identified, for example, six lines down "repair cascade on bunker 3" that appears to have been raised on 30 October 2015. Can you explain to me how that comes to be in relation to those particular records, and there are indeed others, but the ones that are raised on the actual maintenance day, how does that arise?‑‑‑That's (indistinct) arisen, if it arises on the maintenance day it's something that hasn't been noticed or seen during normal production. The maintenance day, all the product is removed, all the oil is removed, all the things that would stop you inspecting every part of piece of a machine are removed so we can look a little deeper. That - this is an assumption, I don't know the job intimately, but for that job, that area could be covered in potatoes every day of the week, so it's only on a shut day where the potatoes have been removed where you can see there's a fault with this, and it looks like the guys have taken the opportunity to correct that on the day .

PN290

Okay. Does that make - I guess, the matters that are raised on 30 Oct and dealt with on that day, does that make those matters urgent?

PN291

MR NGUYEN: (Indistinct) Commissioner.

PN292

MR MEAD: I withdraw the question.

PN293

Can I take you to CM8, Mr Morrow. And just to refresh your memory CM8 is the list of preventative maintenance jobs that are undertaken (indistinct)?‑‑‑Yes.

PN294

Can I just ask you to explain for the Commission's benefit, there's a "Duration" column four columns from the left-hand side of the page. Do you see that there?‑‑‑Yes.

PN295

Can I just ask you to clarify what "duration" is referring to in relation to that item or for various (indistinct) maintenance tasks that have been undertaken, what does the "duration" signify?‑‑‑So that refers to the man hours that are required to do that work and technically to do with the duration - the actual length of the task.

PN296

I see.

PN297

THE COMMISSIONER: This is the third column, we've got "frequency", "department, "duration", "work time", is that right?

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW XN MR MEAD

PN298

MR MEAD: Yes, Commissioner.

PN299

THE COMMISSIONER: There is nothing in my "duration" column.

PN300

MR MEAD: It looks like "Duration" has compressed itself along "work type", so the first - I will just clarify this with the witness.

PN301

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN302

MR MEAD: The first activity, "Number 3 boiler feed water pump and the inspection", it says, "Annual work type" - sorry, "work type A shut (indistinct) and then just to the left of it is the number "3". What do you understand that "3" to signify?‑‑‑That's a task that would take three hours normally, and it's planned for the annual shut period. So it's a three-hour job.

PN303

So is it the case that all those numbers that appear bumped up against the word "A shut" in fact should properly align further to the left and sit under the "Duration" column?‑‑‑Yes.

PN304

All right, thank you.

PN305

THE COMMISSIONER: And are all those numbers within (indistinct) hours?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN306

MR MEAD: I have just one other question for you, Mr Morrow, it's at paragraph 51 of your statement. You use the terminology - this is in the last line of 51, "Gantt charts," at the start of the last sentence of 51?‑‑‑Yes.

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW XN MR MEAD

PN307

Are you able to explain what a "Gantt chart" is and what it contains?‑‑‑So a Gantt chart is a - they're - it's usually used in a (indistinct) scenario, to demonstrate all the steps and a time line associated with all those steps. So the left-hand column you would have each individual step written out on different lines. Along the bottom you would have the dates. So we would use a Gantt chart for our maintenance days and for the whole process of preparing for a maintenance day, so it's on a three-week cycle. There may be 20 or 30 steps between one maintenance day and the next maintenance day that want to make sure we take. So we just finish the maintenance day, by day two we would review all the work that was done. By day 4 we will have assessed any corrective work that has come out of the work that was done, so further work. The storage guys will have received all the parts that aren't used back in, et cetera, et cetera and then you start planning for the next maintenance day and that could be two weeks out from the next one, so you start to have meetings and talk about all the jobs that are going to happen, organising labour, organising parts, and then closer to the time, the stores guys will be putting work packs together, team leaders will be putting work packs together. So there's a whole sequence of events and it's a three-weekly cycle (indistinct) following very closely. All the team leaders - the planners - will have in their calendars each of those (indistinct) days stepped out. So it's really just a (indistinct) structure, method of working on these maintenance days.

PN308

Do the Gantt charts also apply in annual shutdowns or is it just maintenance days?‑‑‑Just maintenance days at the moment. We would like to do one for annual shutdowns.

PN309

Thank you, Commissioner. Nothing further in chief.

PN310

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Nguyen, just before you start (indistinct) the fire alarm is going to be tested at some stage.

PN311

MR NGUYEN: Okay.

PN312

THE COMMISSIONER: When that does occur, we will (indistinct)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUYEN [11.15 AM]

PN313

MR NGUYEN: Mr Morrow, you're responsible for the 48 employees engaged in the engineering department, aren't you?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN314

And your familiar with the skills of each of those employees?‑‑‑Yes, I am.

PN315

And you're familiar with the way that labour hire was engaged under the previous agreement, in your department?‑‑‑The agreement - labour hire, how I was engaged?

PN316

That's right. You were familiar with how many labour hire were engaged at the time of - under the previous agreement. So if you just focus on maintenance days and the shut-downs, you would be familiar with how many labour hire were engaged in the department for those days?‑‑‑I would have an approximate number, yes.

PN317

And you would be familiar with the pay rates that they receive?‑‑‑Yes.

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW XXN MR NGUYEN

PN318

And under the previous agreement, the pay rates that they received were no less than the previous agreement?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN319

That's correct. That's all right. Sorry, when I say the previous agreement I do mean the 2011 agreement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN320

And the services area and the field services area, when they engaged labour hire under the previous agreement, they were paid at no less than the 2011 agreement. Is that correct?‑‑‑That is my understanding, yes.

PN321

I will just confirm, when you say services carried out in the field, that would be the area that includes the refrigeration, boiler tech, waste water and trades assistant. Is that correct?‑‑‑The services area, yes.

PN322

Are you familiar with an employee named Ian Pyes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN323

He does PLC programming, doesn't he?‑‑‑Yes, he does.

PN324

He does do PLC programming. And Carl Blon?‑‑‑Yes.

PN325

He works in the cooling tower service?‑‑‑He is in the refrigeration area which includes the cooling tower.

PN326

And he performs work on cooling tower service and support, doesn't he?‑‑‑Yes, he is involved in the maintenance of those cooling towers, yes.

PN327

So he has the necessary skills to perform that maintenance, doesn't he?‑‑‑Yes. He's from a mechanical trades background.

PN328

And are you aware of an employee named Craig Smith?‑‑‑Yes.

PN329

And Matthew Buckley? And they do - they're full-time electricians, aren't they?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN330

And they do testing and tagging?‑‑‑They do testing and tagging, yes.

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW XXN MR NGUYEN

PN331

And are you aware of John Porper and Gary Edwards?‑‑‑Yes, I am.

PN332

And are they skilled to perform crane operation?‑‑‑Yes, they are - have a licence, yes.

PN333

I will just take you to paragraph 26 of your statement. I will just ask you one more question. You're obviously aware of Mr Darren Gale?‑‑‑Yes.

PN334

And were you aware that Mr Gale had built a structural steel access platform?‑‑‑Yes.

PN335

You are aware of that?‑‑‑I am aware of that.

PN336

At paragraph 26 you say that:

PN337

based upon skills, equipment and licensing requirements there is a range of maintenance work -

PN338

this is the amended sentence -

PN339

which would not normally be done by our maintenance team and/or the maintenance teams on other sites.

PN340

And there's a range of work that's listed there after that introduction. There are employees will skills to perform a number of these tasks, is that right? Including crane operation?‑‑‑Yes.

PN341

PLC programming. Cooling tower service and support. Structural steelwork?‑‑‑Can I take them one at a time just to clarify.

PN342

Yes. Okay. Let's start from the beginning, sir. Structural steel work?‑‑‑Yes. So who are you saying has done structural steel work?

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW XXN MR NGUYEN

PN343

Darren Gale had built a platform?‑‑‑That's right. He did a very sound job of it but there are rules and regulations around building platforms, so it is not something I want to encourage my guys to do. It comes back to some of the legislation around how we do things these days versus how it used to be. So, yes, Darren did build a platform. Was it certified? No. So I stay away from my guys doing that sort of work.

PN344

What do you mean by certified?‑‑‑Well, there's an Australian Standard for platforms and stairs, and any new platform or stairs needs to adhere to that, and that's the way we're working going forward. It should have a plaque on it that should have the drawing number specified on it, and any difference from that platform versus the Australian Standard detailed on it. So we've put in some equipment in the last year. The stairs and the platforms will have that signage on it. That's a requirement. So we may have done it in the past but it's not something that I want to do going forward, or that I can authorise.

PN345

So are you saying that Darren Gale can't build the structural steel platform according to the standard?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN346

Okay. I will take you to the next point, major PLC programming?‑‑‑Yes.

PN347

It's correct that you do have an employee who performs PLC programming?‑‑‑Yes.

PN348

And full service and support?‑‑‑Yes. So the PLC programming, yes, we have someone who does that work but that does not mean we won't want to supplement that whenever we are in a big program. So we're actively looking at that at the moment. We have a large project looming, so we need assistance for him. Bear in mind that this list, which comes primarily from the EDA, goes for all the sites. So some of the smaller sites we don't have the luxury of having a permanent PLC programmer on site. That's why that was on the list that we - we don't see that as a core function, the PLC programming. We have a large (indistinct) every year, so we have a PLC programmer. It is our choice. Cooling towers, Carl Blon does the inspections and will do minor maintenance. Again, cooling towers and the chemical treatment is actually managed by an outside company. Again, there's a lot of legislation around cooling towers, legionnaires, etcetera. So Carl will do specific parts of it but in no ways is he managing the cooling tower.

PN349

Okay.

PN350

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry. Do you know what PLC stands for?‑‑‑Programmable Logic Controller. It's the PC part of the machine. The brains of the machine.

PN351

Thank you.

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW XXN MR NGUYEN

PN352

MR NGUYEN: Testing and tagging. There are employees with the skills to perform testing and tagging?‑‑‑Yes.

PN353

And crane operation, you have employees who have the skills to perform crane operation?‑‑‑Yes. Yes. But the crane operation, in my view, is coincidental. In particular for Gary Edwards that you mention. He's an area fitter. If he left tomorrow and we replaced him, we wouldn't look for someone with a crane licence. And other sites may not have that luxury to have on-site crane driver.

PN354

I will just take you to the diagram attached to your statement which is CM1. The freezer tunnel is part of the refrigeration. Is that correct?‑‑‑The freezer tunnel is pretty much like a big esky. There is a conveyor that runs through it with the product on it. It could be considered part of the production line but in that box is a piece of refrigeration kit that is directly attached with all the other refrigeration kit in the engine room, and that's goes to the cooling of the air in that.

PN355

Indeed, it's part of the refrigeration tech used under the services team leader. Is that correct?‑‑‑Yes. They do daily inspections of those areas, yes.

PN356

Including the freezer tunnel?‑‑‑Including the freezer tunnel.

PN357

And production can't continue without the freezer tunnel. Is that correct?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN358

And the waste water treatment plant, there are solids that go into the waste water treatment plant. Is that correct?‑‑‑Solids, yes.

PN359

And the waste water treatment plant produces some cattle food stock which is sold at the food lots at Powranna. Is that correct?‑‑‑I do not know.

PN360

You don't know. Okay?‑‑‑Yes. I know some stock is sold as that but you know that's a negligible cost. It's better than dumping it.

PN361

It does produce something that's sold?‑‑‑I don't know if we can get money for it, or we pay less for the waste. I don't know.

PN362

Okay. And the boilers, if I can take you now to the boilers. The boilers produce the steam for the key lines. Is that correct?‑‑‑Yes.

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW XXN MR NGUYEN

PN363

And that's also supplemented by the steam from the co-generation plant. Is that correct?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN364

And without steam, the key line section can't operate. Is that correct?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN365

Would it be correct to say that about 50 per cent of the steam actually comes from the co-generation plant?‑‑‑That's approximate, yes.

PN366

So it would be correct to say that the steam produced by the co-generation plant and the boilers contribute to the conversation of the raw material to the finished product?‑‑‑The steam itself contributes.

PN367

Yes?‑‑‑But it's an in-through - it doesn't - the boilers themselves don't do any work on the potatoes. The boilers produce steam and the steam does the work.

PN368

Okay. And the freezer - the freezer would contribute directly to the conversation of the raw material to the finished product?‑‑‑The freezer wouldn't.

PN369

The refrigeration tunnel?‑‑‑The refrigeration that supplies the cooling capacity to the freezer. The air in the freezer then does the work.

PN370

Can I take you now to critical rotables, which is - sorry, I have just lost the spot - paragraph 35 of your statement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN371

When rotables are replaced, they are rebuilt as soon as possible. Is that correct?‑‑‑They are rebuilt in a priority but primarily done by our machine shop. So the machine shop does it.

PN372

But they are prioritised by the machine shop?‑‑‑The rotables, in consultation with leadership.

PN373

Are you familiar with the sweeper granule screens?‑‑‑I know what they look like.

PN374

Yes. They're what you would describe as a rotable - is that correct?‑‑‑I don't actually know. A rotable to me means you have a spare unit. And I don't know if we have a spare unit. I assume that it is.

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW XXN MR NGUYEN

PN375

THE COMMISSIONER: What does a rotable do?‑‑‑To be honest - - -

PN376

You're the only one who can answer that?‑‑‑The rotable is a piece of equipment that will wear out over a period of time, and it is large enough or costly enough to make it worth refurbishing. So we would typically keep a complete spare unit and during a shut-down we would exchange the new for the old, and we would take the old out and we would rebuild it.

PN377

Yes. What's its purpose? What does it do? What is the function in the process?‑‑‑The rotable is a common term for anything that is handled like that. The sweeper is a sieve, a vibrating sieve.

PN378

Okay?‑‑‑Basically you take big bits out and little bits.

PN379

Right. So there's no straight-forward answer to my question? It could be a number of things that falls into the category?‑‑‑There are many rotables on the site but typically they are gear boxes, pumps.

PN380

I see?‑‑‑It's the same concept as exchanging your car engine every 300,000 ks.

PN381

I see?‑‑‑You exchange it.

PN382

Thanks.

PN383

MR NGUYEN: So it would be correct to describe that as similar to a spare part?‑‑‑Yes, it is a spare part. Once it is refurbished it is a spare part.

PN384

And for parts that, for example, fail frequently, they would be prioritised for refurbishment?

PN385

MR MEAD: I just might to ask if Mr Nguyen could be a bit more precise with the question. As I understand it there are lots of parts and the witness is being asked to give a general answer about all parts that fail frequently. It might be a difficult question to respond to.

PN386

THE COMMISSIONER: In light of the fact that rotables seem to be a broad group of different pieces, is there - I think you can ask the question. It may not be possible to be answered if he doesn't know, but go ahead, Mr Nguyen.

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW XXN MR NGUYEN

PN387

MR NGUYEN: Are you aware of rotables that would be - would fail frequently? You would be aware of them?‑‑‑I can think of probably one thing I would consider a rotable that wears out in a matter of weeks, yes. But most last for a lot of months, if not years.

PN388

And the ones that fail in a matter of weeks, those would be refurbished as a priority?‑‑‑They are refurbished on a - we have several spares. So it's not necessarily a priority but it is put in as part of our structured work for the day during the week.

PN389

Okay. Can I ask you about machine overhauls. In general terms, a machine overhaul is when part of a machine is disassembled or taken apart, and then put back together. Is that correct?‑‑‑Usually the entire machine is pulled apart and put back together.

PN390

Okay. Can I take you to CM8. There's a number of items listed there which are part of the manual (indistinct) shaft. Aside from - I just - would you have a pen? I will just mark a couple that I just want you to note here. So on the second page, if we go down to the number - the second page on page 65 - if we go down to the number 397, next to it, it says, "fire exhaust"?‑‑‑Yes.

PN391

THE COMMISSIONER: Where is that?

PN392

MR NGUYEN: On the second page which is page 65.

PN393

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN394

MR NGUYEN: It's a third of - a quarter of the way down. The number is 397.

PN395

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN396

MR NGUYEN: And then if I take you down another halfway down the page to 978, which is "granule plant lighting," and just note that one?‑‑‑Yes.

PN397

And then if I take you a little bit more down - four more down to 78, "the GRL annual unit exchange"?‑‑‑Yes.

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW XXN MR NGUYEN

PN398

And then a couple more down to 430 which is the "hire freezer trailer". Then if I can take you to the last page, on 686 there's a range of items which begin with "statutory" going down to 800. 686-800?‑‑‑Yes.

PN399

Now, aside from those items which I've asked you to mark, all of the remaining jobs in that list are machine overhauls, aren't they. You can take your time?‑‑‑The whole list of the CM8?

PN400

Yes, aside from the items which I've asked you to mark?‑‑‑I don't know what some of these entries are. There is quite a few of them that would be a traditional overhaul, dissemble the pieces, replace all the bearings put it back together. There's quite a lot of them. I reckon half of them are around inspecting the internals, which would lead to corrective work if required. So it's the inspection, that what it says specifically in the protocol, then it would be a more traditional overhaul.

PN401

Do inspections require a machine overhaul?‑‑‑Some inspections will require disassembly. Some will simply require access to get into an area that normally you couldn't get into.

PN402

Are there any in there that would say don't require a machine overhaul? Any inspections that would not require a machine overhaul?‑‑‑So the first one there, the water pump, that's for an inspection. If that's pumping correctly and keeping pressures, that won't be overhauled. I would say the second one is almost certainly a thorough overhaul, with all the pieces rebuilt. But to be honest, I don't know some of these in enough detail to tell you. So as a generalisation some, yes, are traditional overhauls but there are some there that are purely inspection to ensure that everything is okay.

PN403

Yes. But a large proportion of that list involved machine overhauls?‑‑‑A portion of it. I don't know if it's 50, 40 or 30 per cent.

PN404

Okay. Well, the ones that say "annual overhaul" are definitely overhauls. And you would say another number which involved inspections would involve overhaul of the machine?‑‑‑They would lead to corrective work but it won't be a thorough - it won't be a complete overhaul. They may find one thing that's wrong and they will correct that.

PN405

Yes. But in order to do the inspection you said before that they would require a machine overhaul?

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW XXN MR NGUYEN

PN406

MR MEAD: Objection. I don't believe that's what the witness' evidence was at all.

PN407

THE COMMISSIONER: No. What he said is that sometimes that they would see if they required an overhaul. So can you reframe the question?

PN408

MR NGUYEN: Yes. And you agree that the machine overhaul involves the disassembly of a machine or part of a machine, and the reassembly?‑‑‑Yes.

PN409

That the machine overhaul is generally when a machine is disassembled and put back together?‑‑‑Yes.

PN410

So just going back to the list then, there are inspections which will require the disassembly and reassembly of the machine in order for the inspection to be completed?‑‑‑Yes.

PN411

Which means the same thing as saying some inspections require a machine overhaul. Is that correct?‑‑‑Can you repeat that?

PN412

Some inspections will require a machine overhaul in order to do the inspection?‑‑‑Some inspections will require a degree of machine disassembly but that could be, like, within the boot of your - within the bonnet of your car. You're accessing potentially a confined space, or somewhere where you can't normally access. There might be a cover or a lid that needs to be removed.

PN413

That's right?‑‑‑But they're not - there's nothing wrong when you get in there, then you do not disassemble any further.

PN414

That's right. But some machines require a complete disassembly of that part in order to complete the inspection?‑‑‑I can't think of one. Normally you can test if a bearing is okay or not without having to pull the entire bearing out from the machine. If you've gone that far you may as well - so I would say typically inspections do not involve complete disassembly.

PN415

Okay. I'm just referring to the inspections that are on that list, the CM8 list?‑‑‑Yes.

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW XXN MR NGUYEN

PN416

So there are inspections on here, annual inspections, which would require the complete disassembly and reassembly, which is equivalent to a machine overhaul for the inspection to be completed?‑‑‑I don't know. As I said, if you take the first example, the water pump, and do some tests on it, it doesn't need disassembly to prove whether it is in sound operating condition. And there is no need to disassemble that one. I don't know enough about most of the other ones to comment on how much disassembly is required to do the inspection.

PN417

Okay. So you wouldn't know enough about each of the particular parts of the preventative maintenance jobs to be able to describe exactly what is performed in each of those tasks?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN418

And so as part of the maintenance day or the annual shut-down, you wouldn't be able to describe what each of the preventative maintenance day jobs performed on those days involves would you?‑‑‑Not every one of them, no.

PN419

Sir, you wouldn't be able to judge then for each of those jobs whether they would be urgent, frequent, large or complex, each of those preventative maintenance jobs, would you?‑‑‑Preventative maintenance by nature isn't urgent. Preventative maintenance is about stopping a failure that may happen somewhere in the future, and that takes urgency out of it as far as I'm concerned.

PN420

Can I just put to you a specific example then. If a preventative maintenance - or say a maintenance issue arises during a production day, and the team leader or the area leader determines that it's a problem and might require a break-in, and there's a discussion with the team leader about whether a break-in occurs or whether it's deferred to a maintenance day, at that point if it's deferred to the maintenance day, it's not urgent. Is that correct?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN421

And then once it gets to the maintenance day, it needs to be finished by the conclusion of that maintenance day. Is that correct?‑‑‑It would be good practice to make sure that has happened but when we make the decision whether it's going to last one week, two weeks, 10 weeks, normally we're not - we don't know, so it would make good sense to fix it on the next maintenance day. But if we don't get it done and it has to work until the following one, and that happens, then normally we will get away with that. So when it gets to the actual maintenance day, I still wouldn't call the majority of them urgent but it would be good practice and good sense to make sure that they're completed on the maintenance day.

PN422

But they would be prioritised to be completed on that day?‑‑‑Yes.

PN423

That's right?‑‑‑That's correct.

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW XXN MR NGUYEN

PN424

And so they would be considered by the employees who are performing that work, urgently required to be completed that day?

PN425

MR MEAD: Objection. Is the witness being asked to speculate on what the employees actually have in their minds in relation to urgency?

PN426

MR NGUYEN: I will rephrase the question.

PN427

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN428

MR NGUYEN: Employees would be directed by their supervisors to urgently complete the prioritised tasks on that day?‑‑‑The whole concept of prioritisation makes sure that the most important jobs are done first. So that's the way we work. If it's a safety element to it or a statutory element, we will do those things first to ensure that they get done. After that it is preventative maintenance, corrective work. And if we have time we will look at some of the improvement work that comes through but that's prioritisation.

PN429

And issues which arise during production days that are deferred to the maintenance day or the annual shut-down, employees would be directed to prioritise and urgently perform those tasks on the maintenance day to avoid future production break-ins?‑‑‑Yes, the prioritisation is correct. The whole concept of urgency, I don't get. It's - urgency says that you're pushing someone to do something quickly, which is not what maintenance days are about. It's typically well-planned. The guys know what they need to do in what order, and if something comes up that slows them on a particular job, then somethings just falls off the other end, a job doesn't get done, one of the lower priority jobs.

PN430

Do you ever - okay, I will rephrase the question. Sorry, I retract that. So you speak about the risk of production break-ins as if they're - sometimes you will take a risk that the production break-ins might have to occur if the maintenance isn't done during the maintenance day or the annual shut down?‑‑‑Can you repeat that, sorry?

PN431

Sometimes you will take a risk if a job isn't done?‑‑‑Yes.

PN432

That's what I'm understanding from you. During the shut-down, you will take a risk that there will be a break-in?‑‑‑Yes, depending on what the consequences or the risks are, we will make that decision, yes.

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW XXN MR NGUYEN

PN433

Yes. And how often would you say that you would make that risk?‑‑‑Typically the work that doesn't get done on maintenance day would be improvement work. So improvement by nature doesn't have to happen, so that's an automatic - there's no serious discussion about that. And the team leaders may have to not do some of the preventative maintenance or corrective work. So I would say that would happen most maintenance days to some degree. There would be some discussion about what we don't need to do if we run out of time. So, yes, we have something that has failed over here, we're not going to get time to fix it on the next maintenance day, will it be okay for the following one. And they will make that decision.

PN434

So you say - your question is, will it be okay until the following maintenance shut-down. But if the tasks which are required to be completed are - because the particular issue leads to a risk of a production break-in, they would be prioritised to be completed on that day, and would be urgent.

PN435

MR MEAD: Objection. I think there are three parts to that question. Perhaps we could break it up into individual sections so the witness could answer.

PN436

MR NGUYEN: I'm just trying to get to - okay. So you identified that sometimes you would take a risk, and you have isolated one of those risks. If the risk is that it will make it until the following maintenance day, which would be - it's a three-week cycle. So it's going to make it through the three-week cycle, then that's not urgent. We have confirmed that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN437

But are there times when you would take a risk that it's not going to make it to the next maintenance day, and employees would be told that it's not urgent to be completed on that date?‑‑‑The difficulty of having is knowing - is an example where we know whether it's going to fail in that three-week period. We never know when it's going to fail. If it sounds rough, we know it's going to fail sooner than a brand new piece but how many delays we can afford to do is a bit unknown. It's pretty rare that you know exactly when something is going to fail. So I struggle to answer that question.

PN438

But you have to make an assessment. Is that correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN439

About whether it's going to make it to the next maintenance day?‑‑‑Yes.

PN440

So if it's not going to make it to the next maintenance day, you're going to tell the employees that it urgently needs to be done that maintenance day, aren't you?‑‑‑We will prioritise it for them, yes.

PN441

Thank you. Can I take you to paragraph 56, which you amended. You changed the second sentence to:

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW XXN MR NGUYEN

PN442

A complex maintenance task is one that involves multiple tasks and multiple machines in a limited time frame.

PN443

What do you mean by a limited time frame?‑‑‑A planned time frame, so the work that we plan to do, we need to work very hard to get that done.

PN444

And so the work, for example, that's done on the maintenance days or the annual shut-downs, where you know that the particular issue cannot wait until the following maintenance day or shut-down, those tasks have a limited time frame you can reach to be performed?‑‑‑Yes.

PN445

And so when you're given a limited time frame to perform a task, you would consider that to be urgent, wouldn't you?‑‑‑No, I would consider that to require good planning and prioritisation.

PN446

Okay. I will take you to the first sentence. You change that to:

PN447

A large maintenance activity is one that requires more resources than a normal team size can provide.

PN448

?‑‑‑Provide.

PN449

Can I ask you when - why you decided to change that sentence?‑‑‑Yes, when I re-read it afterwards I realised that it says something about the usual - longer than usual to complete, and that really begs the question, well, what's usual. So it didn't mean anything to me. And I thought about what I really mean, it was all about large in the sense of the number of people required rather than the time required. And they're related. Two guys could do the work if they were given a month to do it instead of one shift. So it's - certainly in our case it's all about the size of the work crew that we need to get the work done.

PN450

And the second sentence, why did you change that sentence?‑‑‑I don't know why I wrote that initially because it just doesn't make a lot of sense, talking about several components. Yes. Yes, I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote it. It certainly doesn't make sense to me now, so I changed it.

PN451

Commissioner, can I just have a moment to get instructions?

PN452

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Certainly. Mr Nguyen, can I interrupt a moment. Do you have any idea how much longer you will be?

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW XXN MR NGUYEN

PN453

MR NGUYEN: Probably five minutes, I think?

PN454

THE COMMISSIONER: I beg your pardon?

PN455

MR NGUYEN: Probably five or 10 more minutes maximum.

PN456

THE COMMISSIONER: I was considering whether we take a short break now but that's fine.

PN457

MR NGUYEN: Okay. Or if we can take a brief adjournment, that would be good.

PN458

THE COMMISSIONER: If you're going to be five or 10 minutes - - -

PN459

MR NGUYEN: Five or 10 minutes, okay.

PN460

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - it might be best if we conclude the witness.

PN461

MR NGUYEN: Okay. Thank you, Commissioner. Sorry about that, Mr Morrow?‑‑‑That's all right.

PN462

I will just put to you one more question. Just going back to the structural steel access platform that Mr Gale built?‑‑‑Yes.

PN463

That was designed according to the Australian Standards by a draftsman. Is that correct?‑‑‑I don't know.

PN464

You don't know?‑‑‑It's quite possible it was, that there was a draftsman on site, but I wasn't aware of that.

PN465

And - okay. On what basis do you say then that it wasn't built according to Australian Standards?‑‑‑I didn't know the draftsman had done the drawing, so that was my assumption. But it doesn't have the plaque on it that says this is to Australian Standards. So if it was genuinely done to Australian standards, that's news to me and I'm sorry for that misunderstanding but I assumed that it was built based on other designs and Darren had done it as part of the improvements, and it hadn't been certified after construction.

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW XXN MR NGUYEN

PN466

And is there a requirement that it needs to be certified after construction?‑‑‑It needs to have a plaque put on it. That's a fairly new piece of legislation in the last couple of years but it is a requirement.

PN467

And someone else can do that certification who didn't do the building of the platform. Is that correct?‑‑‑Yes. Yes.

PN468

No further questions.

PN469

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. All right. Mr Mead.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MEAD [12.09 PM]

PN470

MR MEAD: Mr Morrow, I might start with, among the questions that Mr Nguyen took you to, he took you to paragraph 26, do you recall? And that list of activities that in your evidence didn't cater -

PN471

would not normally done by our maintenance and/or maintenance team on other sites.

PN472

I'm reading directly from your statement. And there was some questioning in relation to the PLC programming activity. Do you remember those questions?‑‑‑I do.

PN473

And I recall that your answer in relation to that question was that whilst there might be PLC programming at Ulverstone, to your knowledge it didn't require at some of the other smaller sites. Do you recall giving that response?‑‑‑Yes.

PN474

Can you just elaborate for the Commission in terms of your understanding of the capability that other sites have in relation to that activity, PLC programming?‑‑‑PLC programming. Most of the sites will have what they call an automation person. That will be a single person and they will be responsible for all automation and PLC work on site. They will often be an engineer. At Ulverstone we have two PLC programmers and an electrical project engineer who is knowledgeable about automation, so those are the available resources. I don't know exactly what every other site has but technically they should have one person who either is an automation person for the site or for two of the sites. And if so one or two sites are close to each other, then they share a resource.

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW RXN MR MEAD

PN475

I see. So in terms of your evidence 26, I just want to understand, are you providing evidence in 26 solely in relation to your understanding of Ulverstone operations, or is it your understanding of the maintenance teams more broadly?‑‑‑In this - - -

PN476

Well, perhaps just take a look at 26 first?‑‑‑26 is - - -

PN477

MR NGUYEN: Objection. He is leading the witness.

PN478

MR MEAD: Well, I think it was a question. I said is it in relation to Ulverstone or is in relation to site more broadly. The witness is able to answer the question as he sees fit.

PN479

THE COMMISSIONER: That's right.

PN480

THE WITNESS: So in relation to number 26, the list is from the EBA. The EBA was discussed amongst all the sites and representatives from all sites. So I am referring to all sites.

PN481

MR MEAD: When you say all sites, which sites are you referring to?‑‑‑The EBA.

PN482

The 2014?‑‑‑The 2014.

PN483

Is it Mr Ian Plyes?‑‑‑Pyes.

PN484

Pyes, that's the PLC programmer?‑‑‑Yes.

PN485

Do you know whether Mr Pyes is a labour hire employee or a direct employee of Simplot?‑‑‑Ian Pyes is a Man Power employee. He is one of several electricians that are in that bracket. He has been that for a quite a long time.

PN486

And Man Power is the labour hire agency, is it?‑‑‑They are primarily the labour hire company, yes.

PN487

Yes. You will recall there were also some questions from Mr Nguyen about the boiler area, the refrigeration area and the waste water area?‑‑‑Yes.

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW RXN MR MEAD

PN488

And the upshot of this question in relation to all those areas was essentially that without those sections of the plant the production line won't operate. Do you recall him asking those questions?‑‑‑Yes, I do, yes.

PN489

Could I just clarify though, in relation to - we will deal with the boiler area first, so the boiler room - are there any production line employees that perform any work on or in and around the boiler room?‑‑‑No.

PN490

And in relation to the waste water treatment area, are there any production line employees that perform any work in or around the waste water treatment area?‑‑‑No.

PN491

And, finally, in relation to the engine room which is where the refrigeration equipment is housed, are there production line employees performing work in or around that area?‑‑‑No.

PN492

Is there any raw or processed product that passes its way through the water treatment area in the course of it ultimately becoming product that is available for public consumption and distribution?‑‑‑No.

PN493

Is there any raw product or processed product that passes its way through the boiler room?‑‑‑No.

PN494

No. And I will ask the same question in relation to the engine room?‑‑‑No.

PN495

So it's a fair summation that all three of those areas - is it the case that all three of those areas have no direct involvement in processing the raw product into a consumable product at the Ulverstone site?‑‑‑That's my view.

PN496

Sorry, I will just ask you to rephrase that. Is that the case or is it a matter of opinion? Can you just (indistinct)? (Indistinct) yes?‑‑‑So with (indistinct) don't do anything to the (indistinct), and the compressors in the engine rooms don't do anything, but they produce steam and they produce cold ammonia to then pass on heat and cooling to the processor, the machinery that those process materials and to (indistinct).

PN497

There was a long discussion between yourself and Mr Nguyen about the idea of machine overhauls. Do you recall that?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW RXN MR MEAD

PN498

And he took you to Annexure CM8, which identifies planned maintenance is done on annual shutdown. Can I ask you, whilst there are a range of machine overhauls (indistinct) eight, and indeed I also understand - I withdraw that. Are there any other, to your mind, planned machinery overhauls that occur as part of - in say the daily work schedule?‑‑‑Yes, there would be overhauls done as part of the daily work schedule - - -

PN499

Sorry?‑‑‑They (indistinct) beyond what we explained as rotables, and before, so we can work on the (indistinct) production line (indistinct) to the function.

PN500

And I will just refer you to your evidence, is that what you refer to at paragraph 24?‑‑‑Yes.

PN501

Just in respect of the overhauls can I ask you to turn then to CM4, Mr Morrow. Do you have that there?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN502

Can I ask you to direct your attention to number 615 and 617 in this. They're about nine items down?‑‑‑Yes.

PN503

There's the wording, the description of (indistinct) motor O/4 procedure?‑‑‑Yes.

PN504

Can you explain to me what you understand that to be, or do you understand what that involves?‑‑‑I don't know the detail of the overhaul, but I'm pretty sure that is a rotable, so as have a spare (indistinct) on day work.

PN505

So when I see O/4 (indistinct). Okay. So the same in 617 there?‑‑‑Yes.

PN506

Then moving down to 239, which is about halfway down the page:

PN507

Completed conversion gearbox drive, annual overhaul.

PN508

?‑‑‑Yes, what's (indistinct) is the (indistinct) gearbox drive and that's not very specific. (Indistinct) machine (indistinct) I'm not sure, but I'd (indistinct) gearbox gets overhauled once per year.

PN509

Yes. Then 131 moving down the list, (indistinct) door assembly (indistinct)?‑‑‑Yes.

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW RXN MR MEAD

PN510

If I'm understanding that term correctly it's a machinery overhaul, is it?‑‑‑Yes. So that it's - that is actually done on a maintenance day and you do have a spare unit (indistinct) for that. It's quite a big piece of machinery, and we replace all (indistinct) parts on that. So we actually do that on machine during a maintenance day. It can be done (indistinct) in that time.

PN511

And then you've got - I'm moving down the page - (indistinct) the bottom, 392, 119 alongside each other. Once again F/S fixing (indistinct) F/S inspection and your overhaul?‑‑‑So they're two field service units.

PN512

Yes?‑‑‑They're pretty straightforward conveyors (indistinct) overhaul.

PN513

Yes, and once you've (indistinct) this is not - with the exception of the one you identified which is the (indistinct), do these overhauls occur as part of maintenance days or on your shutdowns or at some other time?‑‑‑Some other time.

PN514

Mr Nguyen asked you some questions about (indistinct) the proportion of preventative maintenance that is scheduled for a maintenance day (indistinct) maintenance day that would be actioned on the maintenance day and would be pushed off to another maintenance day. Do you remember him asking those questions?‑‑‑Yes.

PN515

Can you advise the Commission what proportion of - first of all, do you know the proportion of maintenance day activities (indistinct) pushed off to another maintenance day in your experience?‑‑‑We've changed the way we do maintenance days in the last six months, four months, and the day that it's on. So we have struggled a little to get sufficient numbers, both labour hire and casuals. So traditionally we probably would have pushed out some improvement work. We would have got statutory and preventative maintenance done, PMs. What we've seen recently is that some of the PMs, preventative maintenance, we had to prioritise and push out to the next maintenance day. I would say in the last few months there may be possibly 10 per cent of the preventative maintenance jobs but I'm not that knowledgeable about the exact numbers (indistinct) some.

PN516

Perhaps we could take it from a different perspective. Are you able to give an explanation of the proportion of corrective maintenance that's identified through the (indistinct) checks that is (indistinct) until the maintenance day was shut down?‑‑‑I don't know the proportion. What I can say is there's a lot of corrective work done on a maintenance day and there's not a lot of interruption to the production week. So I think of all the things the area fitters identified, most of them can be pushed out to the maintenance day.

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW RXN MR MEAD

PN517

There was a question Mr Nguyen asked you about preventative maintenance on the maintenance days being urgent and he sought to characterise (indistinct). Do you remember him asking you that question? I think your response was it's not urgent, it's about planning for a failure. Do you remember the response (indistinct) do you remember (indistinct) question?‑‑‑(Indistinct) response from me.

PN518

At least as I (indistinct). Do you recall a discussion in that (indistinct)?‑‑‑Can you (indistinct) repeat that?

PN519

Mr Nguyen asked you a series of questions about preventative maintenance being urgent. Do you recall (indistinct) there was a particular response I think you made about, it's not urgent, it's about planning for a failure. Do you remember saying something of that - - -?‑‑‑Yes. I remember saying it's about planning and preparation, I think.

PN520

Okay?‑‑‑Rather than urgency. (Indistinct) good planning and prioritisation I think I said.

PN521

Okay. Thank you, Commissioner. Nothing further. Thank you very much, Mr Morrow.

PN522

MR NGUYEN: Just in relation to the answer that Mr Morrow just gave, I wanted to - I've just been handed a note. I just wanted to see (indistinct) ask another question in cross-examination about what he just said.

PN523

THE COMMISSIONER: (Indistinct) concluded cross-examination.

PN524

MR NGUYEN: Just on the material that he just raised - that's okay.

PN525

THE COMMISSIONER: All right (indistinct). Let us have a luncheon adjournment. If the parties can have a discussion during that adjournment about final submissions (indistinct) there's some - there just might be (indistinct) submissions from the Bar table today in closing, and I want that to occur because (indistinct) to the extent that (indistinct) obviously go to (indistinct) directions, so assume that that's the case and you don't need to wade through that material.

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW RXN MR MEAD

PN526

However (indistinct) but of course there has been some (indistinct) evidence that's emerged today (indistinct) quite detailed in terms of references to particular (indistinct) and so on, and so you may want to give consideration to perhaps graciously providing brief closing submissions today and exercising the opportunity to provide more detailed written submissions in closing subsequent to today, but that's really a matter I'll just leave with you now to have a discussion about.

PN527

The value to me is that you make the most of the opportunity to - given the nature of the matter that needs to be determined, you take most of the opportunity to draw links (indistinct) and linking that to (indistinct) construction of the term. (Indistinct) both sides (indistinct) so I just raise that as a possibility for you (indistinct) at lunchtime. So we will resume at 1.30 pm.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.29 PM]

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.29 PM]

RESUMED [1.50 PM]

PN528

THE COMMISSIONER: During the luncheon adjournment I received an email from you, Mr Mead, suggesting a timetable for filing submissions and a supplementary (indistinct) supplement those primary submissions and to provide us the opportunity for (indistinct) questions (indistinct) Mr Nguyen, you've seen that email and agree with that time line - - -

PN529

MR NGUYEN: Yes, we agree with that proposal.

PN530

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. That's acceptable to me. I just thought we would take the opportunity to canvass exactly how that will roll out. Now, in terms of ordering transcript, we are going to order it in the guidelines where it's not urgent, for three days, so it should - we should be able to have transcript by the end of this week. So that's 4 December. That will mean that the AWU would file (indistinct) assume that's what occurs, (indistinct) least the transcript does turn up by Friday, the AMWU would file by 11 December. Simplot we'd require on 18 December. Now, then they sort of canvas the date that we have the supplementary hearing and I think it will be necessary from my point of view to have one, because I will still need to ask a number of questions, I'd imagine.

*** COLIN GEORGE MORROW RXN MR MEAD

PN531

If after seeing the written submissions I resolve that I don't need to, I will canvas that with the parties at the time and say all questions have been answered. I think that's unlikely, but if they are, that's great. (indistinct) to exercise the opportunity and if you don't, then we may have a hearing but I would like to set down a date so that we know what we are working to and with that in mind, if that timetable comes to pass, we could have the hearing on, say, 22 December - those couple of days before Christmas, but the question is that I'm looking to have it in Melbourne with video links to Sydney, if that's desired. How does that suit the parties? Are you okay with that?

PN532

MR NGUYEN: I'm okay with that.

PN533

MR MEAD: Yes. Yes, Commissioner, that's fine. Thank you.

PN534

THE COMMISSIONER: Then that's what we'll work to, 9.30 on 22 December (indistinct) and (indistinct) that the transcript is available by Friday. If it's not, then we will readjust the dates if we need to. Let's just assume that that's how it works out and we'll be able to have this matter (indistinct) at least from a hearing perspective in this calendar year.

PN535

All right. Anything further from you, Mr Mead?

PN536

MR MEAD: No, Commissioner.

PN537

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Nguyen?

PN538

MR NGUYEN: Nothing further, Commissioner.

PN539

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that concludes the proceedings for today and we adjourn and I will issue directions probably tomorrow (indistinct) discussed this afternoon. All right.

ADJOURNED UNTIL TUESDAY, 22 DECEMBER 2015 [1.53 PM]

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

DARREN JOHN GALE, AFFIRMED................................................................. PN13

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR NGUYEN................................................ PN13

EXHIBIT #N1 WITNESS STATEMENT OF DARREN JOHN GALE.......... PN34

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS KASHMIRIAN............................................ PN35

EXHIBIT #K2 JOB HAZARD ANALYSIS DOCUMENT.............................. PN211

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUYEN........................................................... PN222

THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN235

COLIN GEORGE MORROW, AFFIRMED.................................................... PN241

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MEAD................................................... PN241

EXHIBIT #K3 STATEMENT OF C.G. MORROW UNDATED................... PN270

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUYEN................................................... PN312

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MEAD................................................................ PN469

THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN527