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AM2016/15, Transcript of Proceedings [2019] FWCTrans 261 (23 September 2019)

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Fair Work Act 2009                                       1057290

JUSTICE ROSS, PRESIDENT

AM2016/15

s.156 - 4 yearly review of modern awards

Four yearly review of modern awards

(AM2016/15)

Plain language project

Melbourne

1.01 PM, FRIDAY, 20 SEPTEMBER 2019


PN1

JUSTICE ROSS: Can I have the appearances please, firstly in Melbourne.

PN2

MR S MAXWELL: Commission pleases, my name is Maxwell, initial S. I appear on behalf of the CFMMEU Construction and General Division.

PN3

JUSTICE ROSS: Thank you.

PN4

MR J MONROE: If the Commission pleases, my name is Monroe, initial J. I appear on behalf of Independent Schools Victoria, Independent Schools Tasmania and the Association of Independent Schools New South Wales.

PN5

JUSTICE ROSS: Thank you. In Sydney?

PN6

MS A DEVASIA: If the Commission pleases, it's Ms Devasia, A, for the AMWU.

PN7

JUSTICE ROSS: Thank you.

PN8

MR S BULL: If the Commission pleases, it's Bull, initial S, for United Voice.

PN9

MR B FERGUSON: If the Commission pleases, Ferguson, initial B, for Ai Group.

PN10

JUSTICE ROSS: Thank you, and we have Ms Thomson on the phone in Newcastle. Is that right?

PN11

MS K THOMSON: I'm here by video, your Honour.

PN12

JUSTICE ROSS: Good.

PN13

MS THOMSON: You might not be able to see me.

PN14

JUSTICE ROSS: No, all right, thank you. In Brisbane?

PN15

MS L REGAN: If the Commission pleases, Regan, initial L, for the Housing Industry Association.

PN16

JUSTICE ROSS: Thanks, Ms Regan. In Canberra?

PN17

MS R SOSTARKO: If it pleases, your Honour, Sostarko, initial R, appearing for Master Builders Australia.

PN18

JUSTICE ROSS: Thank you. The main purpose of today's mention is in relation to the hearing listed at the moment for 26 September, with some time reserved on the 27th if necessary. If we can deal with two things; the first is whether Ms Knopp is required for cross-examination in relation to the Educational Services Teachers Award.

PN19

MR MONROE: Your Honour, the IEU is not present at the moment.

PN20

JUSTICE ROSS: Have you had any discussion with them?

PN21

MR MONROE: We have not had any discussions with the IEU.

PN22

JUSTICE ROSS: Why don't you do that and let me know whether the witness is required for cross-examination. I'm assuming it would be by the IEU. They're the only ones that have filed a submission in the matter so check with them.

PN23

MR MONROE: In response. Your Honour, if I may?

PN24

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes.

PN25

MR MONROE: The Associations are, if the IEU does not wish to cross-examine Ms Knopp, content to have the matter heard on the papers, subject of course to the Commission's determination.

PN26

JUSTICE ROSS: We'll still keep the listing at 9.30 in case there are any questions or the parties want to supplement their oral submission and we'll see how we go. That may mean that the Cleaning Services matter might commence earlier than 9.30. Do you have any feeling for how long - if the witness is - well, even if the witness is required for cross-examination it's not going to take very long. Have you any idea for how long you're likely to be in short oral submission?

PN27

MR MONROE: Your Honour, I wouldn't imagine more than say 15 minutes.

PN28

JUSTICE ROSS: Right. So it seems likely that the Cleaning matter could commence at 11. In relation to the Cleaning matter, the award modernisation area within the Commission has a short background paper that will deal with the recent history in respect of that award and this particular issue, and that will be released on Monday.

PN29

Can I deal with - go then to the - those with an interest in the Cleaning Services. Let's assume that if we pencil in that that matter will commence at 11 am. I'm assuming that's essentially what United Voice, Ai Group and - well maybe ABI but how long do you think you're likely to be each of you in respect of that matter?

PN30

MR BULL: I can't imagine that we'd be longer than an hour. These issues are sort of - are technical and more examination of the text - - -

PN31

JUSTICE ROSS: You've put in - - -

PN32

MR BULL: - - - so we might provide a written document. I'll provide it to my friend well before and also the Commission because that will be effective - more effective than perhaps making lengthy oral submissions, talking to a document might be more useful than a submission.

PN33

JUSTICE ROSS: No, no, certainly. Does anyone demur from the fact that it's likely to be dealt with within an hour? We've got your respective written submissions as well?

PN34

MR FERGUSON: No, your Honour.

PN35

JUSTICE ROSS: No, all right. Well that may mean that we could commence the matters involving joinery, building trades, timber and the manufacturing award at 12 noon. That would give us from 12 until one, and then from 2 pm in the afternoon, which should be enough to conclude the oral argument on those awards.

PN36

Can I just ask those with an interest in those awards to focus on a couple of questions; one, whether you think that's right, that that will be enough time if you've got an hour before lunch and then from 2 pm onwards in the afternoon. The second question is how best to deal with that time. It may be that it might be more convenient to deal with the manufacturing award at 12 noon because - well the AMWU would have an interest in that but I'm working on the assumption it doesn't have a particular interest in joinery or the timber award, but I might be wrong about that. But the CFMEU has an interest in both of those, so you may as well group them. So have a think about the order in which we deal with them and whether you think the time's sufficient. Let's start with you, Mr Maxwell.

PN37

MR MAXWELL: Your Honour, I think the time's more than sufficient.

PN38

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes.

PN39

MR MAXWELL: I'm not sure that we have a lot to add to the written submissions we've already made.

PN40

JUSTICE ROSS: No. All right then, can I go to those in Sydney. What do you say about those two issues? This is really directed at the AMWU and Ai Group.

PN41

MS DEVASIA: Your Honour, I'd agree with what the CFMEU has just said in terms of I don't think it would be very lengthy oral submissions. I think that should be more than enough.

PN42

JUSTICE ROSS: Are you content if we start the Manufacturing Award at 12 noon and deal with that - - -

PN43

MS DEVASIA: That would be suitable, your Honour, yes.

PN44

JUSTICE ROSS: Right. What do you think, Mr Ferguson?

PN45

MR FERGUSON: Your Honour, I think that's sufficient time and we'd be supportive of the approach of starting the Manufacturing Award at 12 noon.

PN46

JUSTICE ROSS: Right. Ms Thomson.

PN47

MS THOMSON: Yes, we agree, thank you, your Honour.

PN48

JUSTICE ROSS: Ms Regan?

PN49

MS REGAN: Yes, we'd agree, your Honour, that'd be enough time. Just also, I guess, the grouping of the joinery and timber, just to clarify, commencing at two?

PN50

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes.

PN51

MS REGAN: Yes.

PN52

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes, I think we would give you a definite time. So what I propose is that the manufacturing matter be dealt with at 12 noon and then the joinery, building trades and the timber award be dealt with at 2 pm. So you'll know when you need to come in.

PN53

MS REGAN: That would be fine, thank you.

PN54

JUSTICE ROSS: Right, and the MBA?

PN55

MS SOSTARKO: Yes, thank you, your Honour. We certainly with respect to joinery wouldn't have any objection to or issue with the 2 pm timeframe. I would like just briefly to say that certainly we wouldn't be bringing any evidence, obviously we haven't - none of the parties have filed with respect to the Joinery Award any witness evidence, so we thought that it was worthwhile just noting that obviously we would continue to rely on our submissions of 25 January, but that - and certainly if any outstanding issues with respect to joinery were to be dealt with on the papers, we certainly would have no objection to that course. But that said, we would note that the CFMEU filed reply submissions on 8 February which there are some matters that have been raised within that which we would seek the opportunity to respond to, and if the Commission is minded to obviously provide us with that opportunity during the oral hearing next Friday or sorry, Thursday afternoon, we'd certainly be willing to address those matters during the hearing.

PN56

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes, no problem. Well that's really the purpose of the - rather than giving another reply opportunity, it's really an opportunity for parties to amplify the key points of the submissions they've already made if they wish to, though they don't need to and I certainly don't want to encourage you to. But also to address the issues that are raised in the other submissions and provides the Bench with an opportunity to put some questions to the parties. So that's really the purpose, so you'll certainly have that opportunity. All right, nobody else?

PN57

MS SOSTARKO: Thank you, your Honour.

PN58

JUSTICE ROSS: Well let me just confirm the timeline then. At 9.30 we'll start with the Education Services Teachers Award, you'll clarify with the union whether the witness is required for cross-examination, if you could let my chambers know.

PN59

MR MAXWELL: Yes, your Honour.

PN60

JUSTICE ROSS: Then at 11 am we'll have the Cleaning Services Award. As I indicated there'll be a short background paper in relation to this published on Monday and Mr Bull's indicated that he'll have a document in relation to that matter as well, that'll be provided prior to the hearing to the parties and the Full Bench. Then at 12 noon we'll deal with the Manufacturing Award and then at 2 pm we'll deal with Joinery and Building Trades and the Timber Industry Award. Anything further? No. All right - - -

PN61

MS SOSTARKO: Your Honour, if I might, just to clarify. So I understand obviously we have the Friday set down for this matter as well.

PN62

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes.

PN63

MS SOSTARKO: Is it your intention to keep that time available in the event that there are further issues that need to be dealt with the following day?

PN64

JUSTICE ROSS: Not really. Based on the indications the parties have given, it would seem that we can deal with all of the matters that are before us in the timeframe on the Thursday.

PN65

MS SOSTARKO: Thank you, your Honour.

PN66

JUSTICE ROSS: Look, if something unforeseen happens we'll deal with at the hearing but on the basis of the present indications it would seem that Thursday is going to be adequate to deal with all of the issues. Did you have a different view?

PN67

MS SOSTARKO: No, certainly not, thank you, your Honour.

PN68

JUSTICE ROSS: No, all right. Well I'm not - and look, if it means we sit a bit late on the Thursday in order to give everyone a full opportunity, we'll do that rather than dragging everyone in on the following day, okay? All right, thanks very much, I'll adjourn.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY                                                            [1.13 PM]


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