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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
1736 
, Transcript of Proceedings [2002] AIRCTrans 4897 (6 December 2002)
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114 MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
DX 305 Melbourne Tel:(03) 9672-5608 Fax:(03) 9670-8883
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N VT830
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT LACY
C2001/ 1736
C2002/2936
C No 00758 of 1999
C No 00260 of 1999
CAR PARKING (VICTORIA) INTERIM
AWARD 1995
Application under section 113 of the
Act by the Australian Liquor, Hospitality
and Miscellaneous Workers Union and Another
to vary the above award re hours of work,
rates of pay and Trade Union Training Leave
Application under section 113 of the Act by
Wilson Car Park and Others to vary the above
award re introduction of facilitative
provisions concerning hours of work, leave
entitlements and machinery provisions into
the award
Review under Item 51, Schedule 5, Transitional
WROLA Act 1996 re conditions of employment
MELBOURNE
10.10 AM, THURSDAY, 21 NOVEMBER 2002
Continued from 20.11.02
PN2913
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good morning.
PN2914
MR O'GRADY: Good morning.
PN2915
MS FRENZEL: Good morning, your Honour.
PN2916
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Was the document that you were going to obtain from the company provided?
PN2917
MS FRENZEL: It was, your Honour, and they are doing multiple copies so that we can take evidence from Mr Larkin about that later. The copies just haven't arrived yet and I have said that I can frame my cross-examination so we can deal with that later.
PN2918
PN2919
MS FRENZEL: Mr Larkin, you gave evidence yesterday about the number of car-parks Wilsons have, I believe, in the central business district. Exactly how many car-parks is that again?---As we speak today?
PN2920
Today?---It would be about 78.
PN2921
About 78. Can I ask you to look at a document. I will hand a copy to my friend.
PN2922
MR O'GRADY: Thank you.
PN2923
MS FRENZEL: Can I ask you to identify that document?
PN2924
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you know what that document is?---Do I know? Yes. It is a list of car-parks and phone numbers. It is outdated by 20 months.
PN2925
MS FRENZEL: Could I ask you which car-parks no longer operate on that list?---Would you like me to go through the whole list?
PN2926
Just outline the car-parks that are no longer run by Wilsons?---P 17.
PN2927
You might want to actually - rather than just say P 17, explain the location?---It is listed there. Well, as it says, Dandenong.
PN2928
That is the Hub Arcade, 17 Langhorne Street, Dandenong?---Correct.
PN2929
Can you do it that way for me. It would be far more helpful?---Okay, that is fine. 622 St Kilda Road.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN2930
MR O'GRADY: Your Honour, I simply wonder what the relevance is of this line of questioning.
PN2931
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What is the relevance of the car-parks that are not operated?
PN2932
MS FRENZEL: It was my understanding, your Honour, that Mr Larkin said in his evidence that they operated some 90 car-parks. We say that they operated - sorry, 92 in the CBD and that is found at paragraph 6 of his statement, of his June statement. He now says that he operates substantially less than that. The issue of the number of car-parks relates directly to the issue of the number of staff and Mr Larkin's evidence has also been that the percentage of jockey parking is lower than - at this point in time it is running at around, say 20 per cent, and obviously of the car-parks that Wilsons have lost do not entail jockey parking, then obviously the percentage of jockey parking is going to increase.
PN2933
And it is that sort of material that we want to get from him with respect to jockey parking. I might also indicate to the Commission, it especially goes directly to the classification structure the employees are seeking.
PN2934
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Well, is it possible for me to have a copy of this and see what we are talking about?
PN2935
MS FRENZEL: We haven't got it marked, have we?
PN2936
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, you hold onto that.
PN2937
MS FRENZEL: I would ask that the document be marked. Thank you, sir.
PN2938
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: These don't - I mean this includes more though, doesn't it, than the CBD?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN2939
MS FRENZEL: Yes, it does, and there are some 70 car-parks on that list, your Honour.
PN2940
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: How many? 70?
PN2941
MS FRENZEL: 70.
PN2942
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry?
PN2943
MS FRENZEL: 70.
PN2944
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But he said that they operate 92. Mr Larkin, what do you say are the number of car-parks you operate now in the CBD?---I haven't got the exact number in front of me, but it is in the 70s.
PN2945
In the 70s?---Yes.
PN2946
Well, how is it in your statement you said about 92?---I could have been wrong.
PN2947
In June - in June this year you said there were 92?---There are some sites which are multiple in an area, but my recollection at the time of making the statement was around that number, not having sat down and just counted off the car-parks at the time.
PN2948
Well, I don't know that this document though will assist us much, will it? I mean if it is - - -
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN2949
MS FRENZEL: Well, I was just about to establish that in fact of those 70, there are a number of car-parks which Wilsons no longer operate and therefore the amount quoted in the June statement becomes even less, unless of course Mr Larkin can enlighten the Commission about car-parks which Wilsons have got contracts in since June when he swore a statement to bring it back up to 92.
PN2950
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But this document is 9 February, 2001, is that right? 19 February 2001, by the looks of it.
PN2951
MS FRENZEL: Yes, and it was provided to Mr Oates in September of this year by a member of management staff of Wilsons Car-parking.
PN2952
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Wouldn't the simplest way be for - to ask the company to produce its current - a current list of their car-parks?
PN2953
MS FRENZEL: That depends on whether or not my friend has any objections to that cause of action, your Honour.
PN2954
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Mr O'Grady, is that possible?
PN2955
MR O'GRADY: I would - - -
PN2956
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I mean otherwise we will go through this exercise that Ms - - -
PN2957
MR O'GRADY: Indeed, your Honour. I would have thought that would be possible. I will need to get some instructions.
PN2958
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right, okay.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN2959
MS FRENZEL: Now, Mr Larkin, in your - if we can firstly deal with your October statement. Is the number of 286 car-parking staff still accurate, as outlined in paragraph 4?---It would be very accurate. We have taken on a new car-park since this statement has been made and lost car-parks since this statement has been made, but it would be roughly that number.
PN2960
So it is approximately 286?---Yes.
PN2961
And with respect to the number of full-time employees, you don't put approximately before the number there, so is it still exactly 196?---At the time of the count taken it was 196. We engage and disengage staff on a daily basis.
PN2962
How many full-time employees have been terminated since October, Mr Larkin?---I couldn't tell you, but it wouldn't be many, if at all.
PN2963
So therefore the percentage of 68.5 could be different, I put it to you?---No. It would be very much the same I say, give or take a few staff.
PN2964
But, Mr Larkin, if you give or take a few numbers of 196, then logic suggests and I put it to you this way, that the percentage also must change?---
PN2965
MR O'GRADY: Well, your Honour - - -
PN2966
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You were working off the 25 October statement or a new statement?
PN2967
MS FRENZEL: Well, the numbers, your Honour, haven't - are exactly the same in paragraph 4 of both statements. I am asking has there been any fluctuation between October and now.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN2968
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But he said that, give or take a few, it is about the same, didn't he?
PN2969
MS FRENZEL: And you say the percentages are still the same with respect to full-time employees? And with respect to the pool of 88 casual employees for Colonial and the Exhibition Centre, is that number the same?---It wouldn't vary much because the events cycles don't change that much and the needs for those staff don't change much either.
PN2970
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think you said 88. It says 68 in the - - -
PN2971
MS FRENZEL: Sorry. Now, Mr Larkin, is that paragraph 7 of your October statement. That is what we will focus on first. That - and you say this:
PN2972
Given the nature of this work -
PN2973
I take you mean car-parking work -
PN2974
it is often not viable to put on somebody full-time.
PN2975
?---In our business?
PN2976
Yes?---Yes, there are occasions when there is no need for an eight hour shift at a car-park.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN2977
Okay. And how would - I am not asking you to address your application right now, I am asking in broad terms. How would the introduction of part-time employment improve the situation for car-parking employers?---To a certain degree there can be an amalgamation of, for example, two, three or four hour engagements that would make up potentially a shift if the car-parks were in a similar location, where a staff member could work three or four hours at one site, for example, early bird stamping, and provide, for example, lunch reliefs towards the middle of the day to complete, say, a six hour day.
PN2978
So, can I put it to you that the introduction of part-time employment under the award would be advantageous to the employers?
PN2979
MR O'GRADY: Your Honour, if it assists my friend, that is not an issue between the parties.
PN2980
MS FRENZEL: No, it is the terms of it.
PN2981
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, they want part-time employment in the award as well.
PN2982
MS FRENZEL: It is just a question of how they get it, your Honour. Now, Mr Larkin, with respect to your suggestion, and I am not putting it any higher than a suggested model, that somebody does early bird stamping, then perhaps goes and does relief and that gives a six hour shift, can I put it to you that that could quite easily be a constant six hour shift?---Not necessarily, but the possibility is there.
PN2983
Well, I put it to you that somebody engaged in early bird stamping could be a constant shift?---At a particular car-park? For a casual employee or a part-time employee?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN2984
Part-time employee?---It would - it could be amalgamated into our rosters to form a constant, yes.
PN2985
Can I put it to you that doing lunch relief, for want for using the term loosely, could also be put into a constant shift?---
PN2986
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So am I right in understanding that you said that the person who does the early morning stamping does the lunchtime relief as well?---Not at the moment.
PN2987
No, right. Sorry, Ms Frenzel, yes?---Not necessarily at the moment. I am providing an example of what we could do to engage a part-timer. In certain car-parks there isn't always the possibility to guarantee a designated meal time at a specific time, although they will be given a meal break before the required length of duty transpires. That is why in a lot of cases at the moment we have got a casual employee at both sites for that role, to counter that contingency.
PN2988
MS FRENZEL: The question I am asking, Mr Larkin, is this. Is it, in your experience, with your rosters - can it be done that you could have a part-time employee rostered for a constant number of hours, a consistent number of hours, to do lunch break relief?---It is possible.
PN2989
MR O'GRADY: Your Honour.
PN2990
MS FRENZEL: Thank you.
PN2991
MR O'GRADY: With respect to that.
PN2992
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, he has answered the question.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN2993
MR O'GRADY: Yes, but it is an unfair question, with respect, because as is common ground, there hasn't been that opportunity to date, so he is being asked to guess whether or not that can be done.
PN2994
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But he says it is possible and he knows from his own experience how these car-parks operate. It seems to me as a matter of logic, it would have to be possible anyway.
PN2995
MR O'GRADY: Yes, yes, I won't take it any further, your Honour.
PN2996
MS FRENZEL: Mr Larkin, dealing with the relief issue further, how many hours do you roster an average casual employee for lunch time relief now, per day?---I can't answer that.
PN2997
When did your - what time does your first shift commence in a CBD car-park?---Half past five.
PN2998
And is that a casual or full-time position?---That would be a full-time position.
PN2999
And would that person be rostered to work eight hours?---As a full-timer, naturally.
PN3000
So therefore sometime before the expiration of five hours, that person is entitled to a meal break?---Correct.
PN3001
So how does that person get that meal break now?---They take a break.
PN3002
Okay. And how do you organise the relief?---It depends on the car-park.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3003
Okay. Well, why don't you specify - what is your largest car-park?---Crown Casino.
PN3004
All right. Why don't you specify with respect to say - we will deal with Crown and then we will deal with a CBD car-park. How would you deal with relief for a lunch break for that full-timer who started that time of the morning?---There are multiple staff on site who would continue to assume the duties while the other person takes a break.
PN3005
Okay. Let us deal with people who are engaged as relief people travelling from car-park to car-park for lunch breaks?---To provide lunch breaks?
PN3006
Yes. How many relief staff of that category do you have?---I would have to guess.
PN3007
Well, don't guess. You don't know, do you?---Not the exact number, no.
PN3008
Okay. What time would the first relief person be rostered to commence work?---Lunch relief person?
PN3009
Yes?---Again I would be guessing.
PN3010
You don't know, do you, Mr Larkin?---I don't study the rosters every day, no.
PN3011
But you were aware, Mr Larkin, you were going to give evidence in these proceedings?---I can talk generally.
PN3012
Now, Mr Larkin, you have made the statement it is not viable to put someone on full-time. Can I put it to you and ask you to respond that in paragraph 4 of your statement you have got - you say you have got 68.5 per cent full-timers, but you say it is not viable to put someone on full-time. Can I put it to you that those two statements contradict each other?---
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3013
MR O'GRADY: Well, your Honour, that is an unfair paraphrasing of what is in paragraph 7. Paragraph 7 deals with the casual loading and then says:
PN3014
Given the nature of this work it is often not viable to put someone on full-time.
PN3015
Now he is not saying it is not viable, per se, to put somebody on full-time, he is saying there are occasions, many occasions where it is not viable.
PN3016
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Many occasions, often.
PN3017
MR O'GRADY: Yes, well - and that is perfectly consistent with the figures that are set out in paragraph 4, with respect.
PN3018
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I don't know whether you are giving the evidence or Mr Larkin is, but - - -
PN3019
MR O'GRADY: Well, I object to the question on the basis that it puts a false premise to the witness, with respect.
PN3020
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, well, perhaps you could take Mr Larkin to the sections of his statement himself and then read his statement and ask him does he agree that it conflicts, that they are conflicting statements.
PN3021
MS FRENZEL: Mr Larkin, can I draw your attention to paragraph 4 of your October statement where you say that some 68.5 per cent of full-time, and we would agree that that is still approximately the right amount. And then you put in your statement at paragraph 7 that it is often not viable to put someone on full-time. Can I put it to you that they are conflicting statements?---No.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3022
Now you say at paragraph 8 of your statement that you operate on fine margins and you must bear all increased operating costs. Mr Larkin, can you advise the Commission about the increased labour costs arising out of award variations will be fair, say in the last three years?---I don't understand the question.
PN3023
I am asking you how much of your labour costs, in terms of award variations, increased in the last three years?---The variations to the award that I am aware of deal with safety net increases and also incorporates the increase in Workcover levy and superannuation.
PN3024
No, I am just talking about award increases?---My only understanding of variation to award increases involves safety net increases.
PN3025
In the last three years? And are you aware of what the level of those safety net increases were?---Roughly, yes.
PN3026
Go ahead?---Well, it is used as a quantum of dollars, but I think over the three years it has increased approximately by $25 or $30 a week.
PN3027
Over the last three years?---It could be more.
PN3028
Can I put it to you, Mr Larkin, that the last wage increase was $18?---Yes, I recall that.
PN3029
Can I put it to you also that, based on a 38 hour week, that was 40 cents per hour?---
PN3030
MR O'GRADY: What is the relevance of that question, your Honour?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3031
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I don't know what the relevance is. I mean it might be submissions, it might be submissions that you want to make but - - -
PN3032
MS FRENZEL: Well, what I was going to ask Mr Larkin was since the wage increases have gone up by, based on a 38 hour week, 40 cents and hour, has he increased his parking charges? That was the relevance of the question.
PN3033
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, you can answer the question?---We operate on a 40 hour week.
PN3034
MS FRENZEL: All right, then, so it is 38 cents an hour. Have you increased your parking charges since June when the award was varied for the safety net?---We don't vary parking charges as a direct correlation to the cost of the business.
PN3035
That wasn't the question I was asking, Mr Larkin. I have asked you have you increased them since June?---Some car-parks have increased, some have decreased.
PN3036
Let us deal with the ones that have increased. How much have they increased by? I can be more specific I you want. Let us go. With your casual car-parks where you charge per hour, up to a maximum I think you charge up to three hours and then it is the day rate in some cases. Let us deal with casual parking per hour. How much have you increased the casual parking rate by since June this year?---You are asking me to calculate across a lot of car-parks, so - where there are variations up and down so I would only be taking a guess to answer this. I would need to calculate - - -
PN3037
Well, let us deal with a specific car-park then. Let us deal with Flinders Gate?---We don't operate Flinders Gate.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3038
When did you lose Flinders Gate?---Two years ago, two and a half years ago.
PN3039
Let us deal with, sorry, 32 Flinders Street, near the Herald and Weekly Times. How much have you increased those charges by since June?---The charges have actually dropped.
PN3040
By how much?---It would be in the order of 3 or 4 per cent.
PN3041
Let us deal with Crown Casino. How much have they increased by since June?---We have no control on the rates at Crown Casino.
PN3042
Let us deal with the AXA building at 416 Flinders Lane?---They haven't moved at all as far as I am aware.
PN3043
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You say they haven't moved, did you say?---No.
PN3044
MS FRENZEL: So which ones have you moved, Mr Larkin?
PN3045
MR O'GRADY: Your Honour, in my submission, this line of cross-examination is a bit unfair on the witness. The statements that were filed by him were filed pursuant to the directions of the Commission, both with respect to the union's application and the employer's application. With respect to the employer's application the union of course had the opportunity, if it wished to take issue with any of the things that Mr Larkin says, to file statements putting in issue those matters. It chose not to do so and now Mr Larkin is being asked to provide evidence with respect to some 70 or 70 to 90 car-parks in the CBD, describing rate increases that have occurred since June.
[10.33am]
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3046
Well, in paragraph 8 of his statement, he says:
PN3047
While it may be possible to absorB fair and reasonable increases in labour costs -
PN3048
and gives some examples -
PN3049
...this is not the case with the type of award variation sought by the LHMU.
PN3050
Ms Frenzel, in her cross-examination, is entitled to test that. She has established that the only increase since June in labour costs in terms of award charges was $18 - was the latest SNA.
PN3051
MR O'GRADY: Yes.
PN3052
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now, it seems to me that she is entitled to test the witness - well, the strength of the witness's statement in paragraph 8 about what sort of labour costs might incur or impose conditional costs on operations.
PN3053
MR O'GRADY: Yes, I don't say that Ms Frenzel isn't entitled to challenge what is in paragraph 8 but if Ms Frenzel wanted to put in issue the proposition that it is difficult to absorb costs by - because there are limits on the capacity of a car parking operator to increase its fees, then a witness statement should have been filed by the union to put that in issue.
PN3054
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But the union doesn't necessarily have, within its knowledge, all of the details of the costs and charges of the various car parks that are run by Wilsons or any other car parking station.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3055
MR O'GRADY: Well, one would have thought that the union did a very - it is not very hard for the union to find out what the rates are.
PN3056
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, it may not be very hard but if Mr Larkin makes that sort of assessment or statement in paragraph 8 then you must have some basis for that knowledge.
PN3057
MR O'GRADY: Of course, your Honour.
PN3058
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And it is entitled to be tested.
PN3059
MR O'GRADY: As your Honour pleases.
PN3060
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN3061
MS FRENZEL: Returning to my question, Mr Larkin, which car parks, to the best of your knowledge, since June, have you increased charges and by how much?---There would be a number of car parks which have - and I could go through a complete list if you so wish.
PN3062
Feel free.
PN3063
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just before you do that, has some instructions been obtained about the availability of a current list of car parks?
PN3064
MR O'GRADY: Yes, and as I understand it, arrangements are being made to get copies of that provided to the Commission.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3065
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well. Would you care to defer that issue until - - -
PN3066
MS FRENZEL: I can come back to that.
PN3067
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you very much.
PN3068
MS FRENZEL: Mr Larkin, how acquainted are you with - I have got no doubt Mr O'Grady is going to leap to his feet again - how acquainted are you with the terms of the employer - - -
PN3069
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, why do you feel compelled to ask the question?
PN3070
MS FRENZEL: Because I want to see if he does.
PN3071
MR O'GRADY: Sorry.
PN3072
MS FRENZEL: How acquainted are you with the employer's application to vary the car parking award?---I am fairly acquainted.
PN3073
And - well, what exactly does "fairly acquainted" mean?---I haven't - I had have discussions and meetings regarding it. I haven't read, of more recent times, the document. I am fairly familiar with it.
PN3074
Okay. In that case, can I ask that the exhibit be - the witness be shown - I haven't got a copy, have I?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3075
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, which exhibit?
PN3076
MS FRENZEL: It is attachment A.
PN3077
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Oh no, yes, I have got a copy.
PN3078
MS FRENZEL: And the first part I want to take you to actually is a broader matter which is contained is paragraph 9 of your statement and in broad terms you say this: The award should recognise that the ordinary - that ordinary hours for working in a car park should be more in line with extended hours in other industries such as the retail sector. Now, can you advise the Commission of any other sectors where, to the best of your knowledge, they work extended hours?---Could you repeat the question please?
PN3079
Can I ask you if you are aware of any other sectors, as you describe them, where extended hours are worked?---I would have thought in the entertainment industry.
PN3080
Yes?---I would have thought in areas where events are regularly held. I would have thought places such as Melbourne Airport where there has been increased frequency of arrivals and departures. I would have thought petrol stations where they are operating 24 hours a day.
PN3081
Mr Larkin, if we can use your examples you have used: events, I think you referred to Colonial and the Airport for example, can I put it to you that those three areas all have cleaning and security services at those areas?---I would assume so.
PN3082
Can I put it to you, given your statement that given that the site is operating on an extended hours basis, that those services would reflect that?---The other services?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3083
Yes?---Not in direct correlation.
PN3084
Mr Larkin, you gave evidence yesterday about Berkeley Challenge cleaning your car parks, when do they clean them. Do they clean them early morning, middle of the day, late at night, when do they clean them?---All of the above.
PN3085
All of the above so they clean early morning, middle of day and night?---Correct.
PN3086
And with respect to your security arrangements that you say you have in place?---Which we do.
PN3087
When do you have those security arrangements in your car parks, early morning, middle of the day, late at night?---Depending on the circumstances, all of the above.
PN3088
So - I put it to you, Mr Larkin, that the cleaning and security industries also, particularly with respect to the parking industry, operate the similar hours that you work, that your industry works?---To some degree.
PN3089
It is either a yes or no answer, Mr Larkin.
PN3090
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, why can't it be to some degree, it mightn't be - - -
PN3091
MS FRENZEL: Because he has just agreed that they work early morning, middle of the day and late at night and that is exactly what the car parking industry does as well, your Honour. It is not a little bit similar. I put it to Mr Larkin that is actually the same in terms of the spread of hours.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3092
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, you can put that to him but he - - -
PN3093
MS FRENZEL: I put it to you, Mr Larkin, that the spread of hours that is worked by your cleaning contractors and your security contractors are the same as your employees in the industry?---It is on a site by site basis so - - -
PN3094
I am talking about the industry, I am not talking about sites.
PN3095
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, yes, but he is saying it is on a site by site basis.
PN3096
MS FRENZEL: I understand that but his evidence isn't limited to a site by site basis. He talks about it in general terms.
PN3097
MR O'GRADY: Your Honour, with respect, the witness hasn't been qualified as somebody who can give any meaningful evidence about the hours at are worked in the cleaning industry or in the security industry.
PN3098
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't know - I think that is right but I mean you can put these questions but I mean you have to accept the answers.
PN3099
MS FRENZEL: Fine, that is fine. All right. Well, let us deal with more specific sites then. With respect to, when you have your car parks cleaned, with your major CBD car parks, when do you say they are cleaned?---Over a 24 hour cycle.
PN3100
And with the security arrangements you have in place at various car parks, what is the spread of hours for those security arrangements?---Over a 24 hour cycle.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3101
And can I put to you also, Mr Larkin, that in general terms, the parking industry is over a 24 hour cycle as well?---More so these days.
PN3102
So when you say at paragraph 9 and you use the retail sector as an example, there are other examples, are there not?---I wouldn't dispute that.
PN3103
Now, Mr Larkin, you go on to say:
PN3104
The ordinary hours of work should, as is recognised in the award variation sought by the car parking operators, be between 6 am and 7.30 pm Monday to Saturday.
PN3105
Why do you say that should be the spread?---The greater majority of our work is conducted in those hours.
PN3106
Why then, Mr Larkin, in your application, if I can draw your attention to clause 9 in attachment A, why then, Mr Larkin, do you say that the daily spread and I am referring to little paragraph (b) and the last sentence:
PN3107
The daily spread hours, that is 6 am to 7.30 pm, may be varied by up to one hour at either end.
PN3108
Can I put it you that actually gives you a spread of 13.5 hours of ordinary hours?---No.
PN3109
It does?---That is not how I interpret it.
PN3110
Do you understand what a spread of hours is?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3111
MR O'GRADY: Your Honour, how is - - -
PN3112
MS FRENZEL: It is a fair question.
PN3113
MR O'GRADY: Well, with respect, the - - -
PN3114
MS FRENZEL: It is either yes or no.
PN3115
MR O'GRADY: - - - figures either speak for themselves or they don't. What this witness understands as what is meant by spread of hours, in my submission, isn't going to assist the Commission. I don't have any objection to Ms Frenzel putting to Mr Larkin that he doesn't need the extra - the ability to extend up to 10 hours but what he understands this clause means, in my submission, doesn't assist the Commission.
PN3116
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Ms Frenzel, the - you said that is an actual spread of 13.5 hours.
PN3117
MS FRENZEL: It can be.
PN3118
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What were you referred to there, the 6 to 7.30 or the additional hour at either end?
PN3119
MS FRENZEL: The additional hour at either end, your Honour.
PN3120
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, what is the spread of 6 to 7.30, that is 13 and a half in any case, isn't it?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3121
MS FRENZEL: I never was very good at maths, excuse me. Can I say - can I retract that, Mr Larkin, and can I put it to you that the spread of hours, the possible spread of ordinary hours under your application is 15 and a half hours.
PN3122
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you understand what is being put, Mr Larkin?---I disagree.
PN3123
Yes, all right.
PN3124
MS FRENZEL: And on what basis do you disagree, Mr Larkin?---Because the daily spread, in general terms, which we request is between 6 and 7.30 but it may, for example, have someone start an hour before 6 or finish a shift an hour after 7.30 but would still be engaged for their full time requirement.
PN3125
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just a sec, just so I can understand what you are saying. If a person agrees to start at 5 o'clock, their spread of hours goes from 5 am until 6.30 pm, is that what you are saying?---No.
PN3126
All right?---The 6 am to 7.30 describes what we see as the ordinary hours in a day. We are not expecting a staff member to work from 6 am to 7.30 at night.
PN3127
No?---It is just their starting and finishing times can be between those parameters and be classified as ordinary hours of work. By agreement with an employee, primarily due to operational requirements, they may wish to commence their shift at 5 and finish at quarter to 1 or commence their shift at 12.15 and finish at - sorry 1.15 and finish it at 8.30.
PN3128
But isn't that, in effect, extending the spread of hours?---Only by agreement.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3129
Yes, but nonetheless extending the spread or - spread of hours, isn't it? I am just trying to understand your logic in saying, well, no, it doesn't extend - it doesn't mean it is 15 hours, well, I don't necessarily know that it does, it seems it can either - it can be extended by one hour at either end so that seems to make it 14 and a half hours but I am just trying to understand why you say that isn't an extension of the spread of hours. I know it is by agreement but it is nonetheless extending the spread of hours and making what would otherwise be overtime, ordinary time?---No, not necessarily as overtime. As I explained before it is about having a same designated day shift without overtime being applied but can commence - - -
PN3130
That is what I am saying, it is changing what would otherwise be overtime into ordinary time?---Overtime, as I understand it, is when you work beyond the agreed amount of hours you are entitled to do which in the current case of a 40 hour week is 8 hours a day so anything over 8 hours of a given shift.
PN3131
Or outside the spread of hours can be overtime as well?---My understanding, for the spread of hours, deals with the penalty rates that may apply either side of the spread not overtime necessarily.
PN3132
All right. Go on, Ms Frenzel. I don't know whether that clarifies the situation or not but - - -
PN3133
MS FRENZEL: I think we will be able to clarify it ultimately, your Honour. Can I ask that the witness be shown the Car Parking Interim Award 1995, the current award.
PN3134
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The current award in its original form or - yes.
PN3135
MS FRENZEL: Can I take you to clause 9 of that award.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3136
MR O'GRADY: Sorry, which clause?
PN3137
MS FRENZEL: Clause 9, the hours clause. Can I ask you to read - and we will deal with it in two ways but can I ask you firstly to read subclause (a) dealing with day workers?---You would like me to read it out?
PN3138
No, just read it to yourself. Now, would you agree, in the current award, there was a spread of hours between 7 am and 6 pm Monday to Friday and 7 am and 1 pm on Saturday?---For the payment of ordinary hours, yes.
PN3139
Okay. Now, Mr Larkin, if you have an employee rostered and their hours exceed 6 pm, what do you currently pay them?---They get an afternoon loading during the week of, if I am not mistaken, 15 per cent for any hours worked beyond 6 pm given that it is not an overtime hour.
PN3140
And can you point me to the provision in the award which prescribes a 15 per cent loading?
PN3141
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It might shorten the time if you say there is or there isn't and if there is, where it is, Ms Frenzel.
PN3142
MS FRENZEL: Well, your Honour, can I put to you this, Mr Larkin, that there is no 15 per cent loader containing in the award?---It is quite possible.
PN3143
So let us deal with a day worker who has worked beyond 6 pm. Can I draw your attention to clause 11, overtime, at the bottom of the page. Can I put it to you that that day worker, if he or she works outside the spread of hours, is entitled to overtime.
PN3144
MR O'GRADY: Why is Mr Larkin's interpretation of this award relevant to the issues before the Commission in this application? That is really a matter for a fight between Ms Frenzel and myself, I would have thought, at the end of the day.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3145
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I think so. Ms Frenzel, I think that is a matter for submissions, realistically, I mean the award says what it says and you can take me to Mr Larkin's evidence in due course and say well, Mr Larkin isn't applying the award according to clause 20 and Mr O'Grady will say well, he is. Mr Larkin's evidence is that those hours are paid by way of a 15 per cent loading, as I understood his evidence.
PN3146
MS FRENZEL: No, but your Honour, there was evidence by Mr Larkin yesterday which said there were issues of interpretation between Wilsons Parking and the union, that is already on the record.
PN3147
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But why is that a matter of concern to me in this issue, in the issues before me?
PN3148
MS FRENZEL: Because - - -
PN3149
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is a matter probably for concern to the Federal Court at some stage, I don't know.
PN3150
MS FRENZEL: I accept that but the line of questioning goes to this way: Mr Larkin has said that the intention of their hours provision has a certain effect.
PN3151
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN3152
MS FRENZEL: I am putting to him exactly what that effect is by comparison with the current award provision and given - - -
PN3153
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think I already did that, didn't I, I don't know that I am entitled to but I think I have already suggested to him that the hours between 5 and 6 would normally be overtime hours.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3154
MS FRENZEL: Yes, but then he responded to me by saying it was a 15 per cent loading.
PN3155
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I know. Well, that is his evidence.
PN3156
MS FRENZEL: And I am putting to him that it is overtime.
PN3157
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, that is an argument that you can put to me, I don't know that you will ever get Mr Larkin to agree with you. Obviously he doesn't think it is or he wouldn't be doing what he is doing. I will just make sure though that I do have a clear understanding. That is right, you are not paying overtime for people who work beyond the specified spread of hours in the award, is that right?---We pay overtime for those who work beyond 8 hours.
PN3158
Yes, but not those who work outside the spread of hours?---Correct.
PN3159
You are paying them a 15 per cent loading?---Sorry, it was 10 per cent in actuality.
PN3160
10 per cent loading?---Yes.
PN3161
Yes, all right.
PN3162
Doesn't that deal with the issue, Ms Frenzel?
[10.56am]
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3163
MS FRENZEL: Yes, it does thanks, your Honour.
PN3164
Mr Larkin, do you understand the distinction between day workers and shift workers?---Yes, I do.
PN3165
Okay. How many of your employees would be day workers?---I would have to hazard a guess at this answer, so if you are prepared to take a guess, I will answer; if not, I can't answer.
PN3166
Take a guess?
PN3167
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, well there is not much point in guessing. It is not going to assist me.
PN3168
MS FRENZEL: Now Mr Larkin, you gave previous evidence to say that the main operating period for Wilsons, at least, is between 6 am and 7.30 pm and that is the rationale for you seeking an increase in the spread of hours?---Over a six day cycle, yes.
PN3169
Can I ask you to look at the graphs R1, R2 and R3.
PN3170
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Have we discovered where the other copies have gone or not? I have some copies. Mr Larkin can have these ones.
PN3171
MS FRENZEL: Now I am particularly interested in R1 because that deals with Wilsons Parking. Mr Larkin, have you seen these graphs?---Yes.
PN3172
And you are acquainted with what they have tried to demonstrate?---Yes.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3173
Okay. Can I put it to you, Mr Larkin, based on this graph, exhibit R1, that your busy time really starts to drop off after six. It goes from six to six?---No.
PN3174
On what basis do you say that, Mr Larkin?---Because there is still considerable movements up until 8 o'clock.
PN3175
Can I put it to you that the peak is between five and six in terms of departures?---Yes.
PN3176
Can I put it to you that the - and the graph has got a bit of a problem in terms of arrivals, but can I put it to you that the earlier time appears to be from 6 am onwards?---From six til about 10, yes.
PN3177
Can I put it to you that the traffic, in terms of departures, from 7 pm onwards, is far less than between five and six?---Yes.
PN3178
Can I show you R2. Are you acquainted with the car park at 460 Lonsdale Street?---
PN3179
MR O'GRADY: Your Honour, this isn't of course a Wilsons car park.
PN3180
MS FRENZEL: No, I understand that. That is why I am asking the question?---I am trying to find it. I believe it is Cobb and Co.
PN3181
It is the Law Courts building?---The new car park operated by Secure?
PN3182
Yes?---I am not familiar with their operation but if that is what it is, that is what it is, yes.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3183
If you are not familiar with it, I won't take you to it.
PN3184
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry?
PN3185
MS FRENZEL: If he is not familiar with it, I won't take him to it.
PN3186
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well he is not familiar with their operations but there is no reason why you can't suggest to him whatever you want to suggest that graph represents.
PN3187
MS FRENZEL: Mr Larkin, can I put it to you here also that the peak time in terms of departures is definitely between five and six?---It is a transaction report which I presume talks about when parking - casual parking fees are paid and if that is the case, the bulk of payments would be between 5 o'clock and 7 o'clock.
PN3188
And that the car park doesn't appear to operate between 12 midnight and 9 am?---It does not operate overnight, I know that.
PN3189
With respect to the Museum car park, that is R3, are you aware of the operations of this car park?---In general terms, yes.
PN3190
When do you say the peak, in terms of departures, is in this car park, according to these graphs?---Given that it is not event based, on a particular event base where an exhibition may have been held at the time or a flower show or something like that, it is clear that the peak exits again - or payments I should say, occurred between 4 pm and 7 pm.
PN3191
Can I put it to you, based on those three graphs, that the peak time is between four and seven for departures across the three car parks?---I would say between four and eight but four and seven is close enough.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3192
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So you are talking about peak times only?
PN3193
MS FRENZEL: Peak time in terms of departures. Now Mr Larkin, how do you say that the ordinary hours of work that you are applying for, the spread 6 am to 7.30 pm, is consistent with the retail sector?---Well the two examples you have got as R1 and R2 don't deal with car parks that are located in the busy retail core.
PN3194
No, I am asking you with respect to your statement at paragraph nine, you say that the hours of work should be in line with other areas such as - and you used the example the retail sector - - -
PN3195
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So you are not relating this now to these documents.
PN3196
MS FRENZEL: No. Sorry, your Honour. How do you say that the hours of work compare to the - the ordinary spread of hours that you are seeking, compare to that of the retail sector?---A number of our car parks based in the central business district operate in conjunction with retail outlets such as Myer and Grace Bros, Melbourne Central and other venues that operate on a seven day cycle where there is high levels of visitation and staff parking required.
PN3197
Mr Larkin, Myer doesn't open until 10?---But staff arrive before 10.
PN3198
Melbourne Central doesn't open before 9.30?---Staff arrive before 9.30.
PN3199
Are you saying that they arrive at 6 am, Mr Larkin?---They can arrive at any time, depending on their shifts.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3200
And are you aware of what the spread of hours is in the retail sector awards, Mr Larkin?---No, I am not.
PN3201
Are you aware of the spread of hours in the cleaning and security awards, Mr Larkin?---No, I am not.
PN3202
You are aware, are you not, of the ordinary spread of hours for day workers in the current award?---As referred to in clause 9, part A?
PN3203
That is right?---Yes.
PN3204
Okay. Are you aware also, Mr Larkin, that with respect to your proposed clause 9(b) where it says:
PN3205
The ordinary hours for day workers may be worked on any day of the week.
PN3206
Are you aware that that is consistent with the union's application on this matter or the union's draft order in this matter?
PN3207
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well I don't know where it is going but let us hear whether he is aware or not of it.
PN3208
MR O'GRADY: Yes and I simply ask that the draft order being referred to, whether it was the original draft order or the one that was provided to us on Monday. I would ask that it be specified.
PN3209
MS FRENZEL: I am sorry. Are you aware that a similar provision is contained in LHMU4, the draft order attended on Monday with respect to the union's application?---I haven't read that. I have been on annual leave.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3210
Have you been appraised of the scope of the union's application with respect to LHMU4 at all?
PN3211
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: LHMU4 is the varied or the amended application of the union in respect of the variations that are being sought by the union?---As provided on Monday?
PN3212
Yes?---I haven't seen it.
PN3213
But are you aware of - have you been appraised of it?---No, I am on annual leave.
PN3214
MS FRENZEL: Your Honour, it might be a little bit difficult for me to continue my cross examination at this point because I actually want to cross examine Mr Larkin about the effect of this order versus ours.
PN3215
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well you can tell Mr Larkin what the - perhaps you can show Mr Larkin LHMU4 in relation to that particular clause. Do you have a spare copy of it?
PN3216
MS FRENZEL: Can I refer you to clause 18.1 on page four.
PN3217
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You might see, Mr Larkin, that parts of it are crossed out. 18.1 actually starts towards the bottom of the page.
PN3218
MS FRENZEL: Can I ask you to read that please?---Mm.
PN3219
Can I put it to you that the two provisions provide for ordinary hours to be worked Monday to Sunday.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3220
MR O'GRADY: Your Honour, before my friend continues along this line, once again, in my submission, what is the effect of these proposed variations compared to the proposed variations that have been put forward by the employer is really going to be a matter of submission to your Honour. Mr Larkin may have a view and he is being asked, in effect, to interpret a proposed award clause on the run. If he - he may be very good at doing that but in my respectful submission, it is not going to have any real weight because at the end of the day, what the clauses say is what they say. What Mr Larkin understands them to mean is irrelevant, with respect.
PN3221
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes well I am not sure if it is a question of understanding or what it is. I am not sure where the question is heading. That is why I say I will allow the question but I don't know - if it is heading to Mr Larkin's interpretation of the award, then it is not going to assist in any way, I don't think, Ms Frenzel.
PN3222
MS FRENZEL: But what he does say is that the scope - and to be fair to Mr Larkin, his statement was done prior to the amended application. We accept that.
PN3223
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, so which part of his statement are you referring to?
PN3224
MS FRENZEL: The provision - - -
PN3225
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Which paragraph?
PN3226
MS FRENZEL: Paragraph 9.
PN3227
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Of the second statement or the first statement?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3228
MS FRENZEL: The October statement, the second statement, where he talks about ordinary hours of work.
PN3229
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is where it says:
PN3230
The award should recognise that the ordinary hours of work in a car park should be more in line with extended hours.
PN3231
Is that the one?
PN3232
MS FRENZEL: That is right.
PN3233
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And then it goes on:
PN3234
The ordinary hours of work should, as is recognised in the award variation sought by the car parking award...
PN3235
MS FRENZEL: He goes on to say at paragraph 11, he gives evidence in support of his application.
PN3236
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes?
PN3237
MS FRENZEL: Now what I am saying is that if Mr Larkin is not appraised of the varied application by the union, then maybe this evidence is going to change. I think that is a material issue before the Commission.
PN3238
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I mean - - -
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3239
MS FRENZEL: It has got to be, your Honour, because we have got two competing claims about the same issue.
PN3240
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, but I think you have put to Mr Larkin, look, the union's claim now seeks in fact to have the same thing as they seek in terms of the ordinary hours being worked any day of the week. Although yours is expressed in a different way, isn't that in effect what you are saying to Mr Larkin? Mr Larkin obviously wouldn't be aware of that because he didn't see your amended application, so - - -
PN3241
MS FRENZEL: But Mr Larkin gives evidence about the cost burden of the union's application and we are seeking to take him to those points where we say the cost burden on the employers would be reduced.
PN3242
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is what, sorry? Will be reduced?
PN3243
MS FRENZEL: Yes. And I think it is fair, given - - -
PN3244
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is an argument to put to me. I mean - - -
PN3245
MS FRENZEL: Well isn't there this point to be made, your Honour, that if we don't put it to the witness - - -
PN3246
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: As a matter of fairness, yes.
PN3247
MS FRENZEL: If we don't put it to the witness, then my friend quite rightly can say that the witness's evidence was unchallenged with respect to the statement.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3248
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right, all right. You can suggest that to him. I think that is right, Mr O'Grady. As a matter of fairness because Mr O'Grady is going to say well look, the effect of the changes now sought by the union are to reduce the overall costs and Mr Larkin's evidence in that regard is not to be accepted, then she has, I think, a duty to put to Mr Larkin, as a matter of fairness, what she is going to say to me.
[11.14am]
PN3249
MR O'GRADY: I don't necessarily object to that course, your Honour. My understanding of what was discussed yesterday, your Honour, is that at the end of this witness's evidence, both sides are going to put together a table, and there may well be some differences but hopefully we will come to common ground about what each side says are the cost implications, based upon the construction of the current award and a comparison between what the current award provides and what the proposed variations will provide.
PN3250
All I am concerned about, your Honour, is that, in my submission, it is unfair to ask Mr Larkin to provide a construction of the union's variation. And not only is it unfair but it is unhelpful, because at the end of the day Mr Larkin may have an informed view about that or an uninformed view about that. And at the end of the day it is your Honour's view about that that counts.
PN3251
Now to the extent to wish my friend wishes to take Mr Larkin to some of the concerns that Mr Larkin has identified in paragraph 9 or paragraph 11 and says, look if the effect of the union's application was to give you the ability to roster people over a three week period without paying any overtime or a question along those lines, would that change your concerns or would that address your concerns in paragraph 11, I have no objection. But, in my submission, it is unfair to him to say, you read paragraph 18, doesn't that meet your concerns.
PN3252
If Ms Frenzel wants to say what she says paragraph 18 provides and ask Mr Larkin whether or not that meets his concerns, that is fine. And then I can put submissions to your Honour, as to the correctness or otherwise of what Ms Frenzel's interpretation of paragraph 18 is. That is the basis of my concern, sir.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3253
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think that is right, Ms Frenzel, it is unfair to ask Mr Larkin to try, at this short notice, to interpret what the clause says, because it is expressed in different terms to the way the one is expressed in the employer's application. But there is no reason why, as Mr O'Grady suggested and it is a matter for you of course, you can't suggest to Mr Larkin that the clause that you are seeking to insert, now, has the same effect or has the same substantive effect as the clause in the employer's application. And ask him will that overcome the problems that he has concern about in relation to the original application.
PN3254
MS FRENZEL: The difficulty with that, your Honour, is that although the clause in one sense has the same substantive effect, it doesn't in other ways. So if I ask that question and he says yes, then, in effect we are both wrong. My view about it is that whether we do a spreadsheet or not there will be an argument about the interpretation of that spreadsheet. Mr Larkin - - -
PN3255
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But Mr Larkin - sorry, to interrupt you. Mr Larkin's interpretation, at the end of the day, isn't going to carry much weight with me anyway.
PN3256
MS FRENZEL: No, I accept that. But Mr Larkin's evidence about the cost impost and the nature of industry and the like, are material matters. And the cost impost goes directly to the terms of the application that his company has made, together with the others and the union's amended application. And that is a material issue before the Commission and it is a matter we say, respectfully, for evidence. And can I also say, respectfully, if we are going to continue to have the debate about whether or not this sort of evidence should be led by me, perhaps Mr Larkin should leave the Court room.
PN3257
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I just don't think it is fair to ask Mr Larkin to try and translate any - - -
PN3258
MS FRENZEL: No, I accept that, I accept that point.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3259
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: - - - part of the award. I mean, if you can formulate your question in a way that is going to elicit the type of evidence you want to have Mr Larkin give, and by all means you can ask those sorts of questions. But I don't think, as I say, that you should be entitled to ask questions about the interpretation of any particular clause.
PN3260
MS FRENZEL: Mr Larkin, if I can now take you to your evidence about the proposed changes to the classification structure the employers are seeking. That is found at paragraph 10 of your October statement. And you say that:
PN3261
The proposed changes will clarify the duties and responsibilities.
PN3262
?---That is what we would be seeking, yes.
PN3263
And you say also that level 2A, your proposed 2A and 2B are distinguished on the basis of their ability to undertake car parking and jockey parking functions?---It was part of 2A and 2B, yes.
PN3264
And you say that:
PN3265
Level 3 employees undertake general supervisory functions and 3A and 3B can be differentiated on a requirement that they are responsible for supervising level 2B employees.
PN3266
?---Yes.
PN3267
And I think you gave evidence yesterday, also, about the - when my friend took you, in examination-in-chief, to the classification structures. That you said:
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3268
The current classification structure doesn't recognise the issues of supervision and increased the requirements of jockey parking.
PN3269
Was that your evidence, yesterday, Mr Larkin? I just want to be clear about it?---Could you repeat it, I have to?
PN3270
You said, yesterday, that the current classification structure in the award, doesn't recognise the levels of supervision which are required and also the - for want of a better expression, the work of jockey parking?---My recollection, it doesn't adequately recognise it but I won't dispute what you are saying.
PN3271
Well perhaps then can I - are you acquainted with - - -
PN3272
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well I might assist here. In your evidence you, in fact, spoke about the fact that you paid an allowance to people for their supervisory responsibilities?---We pay a number of staff higher duty allowances and in fact salaries that exceed the award for the roles that they currently do.
PN3273
It was during that evidence that you gave evidence that Ms Frenzel just referred to?---Okay.
PN3274
MS FRENZEL: Now, with respect to - firstly, if I can deal with the staff on salary - no, I will withdraw that, I will deal with that in a moment, your Honour. Mr Larkin, you are aware that the award has a three level classification structure, currently?---The existing award. Yes.
PN3275
Now, Mr Larkin, are you aware, when the classification structure was inserted into the award?---Not totally but I assume in '95.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3276
Can I put it to you that it was in 1997?---There you go.
PN3277
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, when? 1997.
PN3278
MS FRENZEL: 1997. And can I draw the witness's attention to - excuse us, your Honour, we have got a slight housekeeping problem. Now, given that my friend is going to have something to say about the tendering of these folders at some point, so rather than engaging in the level battle now, we will engage in it at some point later.
PN3279
MR O'GRADY: Your Honour, if it assists my friend, I am happy for the bundle to be handed up for identification now, rather than having them dis-aggregated, just to keep control of the paperwork. And then we can have the battle about which bits of the exhibit marked for identification, should be formally tendered down the track.
PN3280
MS FRENZEL: I seek to tender a bundle of documents.
PN3281
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will mark them for identification at this stage. How many bundles? How many - - -
PN3282
MS FRENZEL: I am sorry?
PN3283
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just the one bundle is it or?
PN3284
MS FRENZEL: Yes.
PN3285
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3286
PN3287
MR O'GRADY: Your Honour, is that for the purposes of identification only at this stage.
PN3288
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It is yes, MFI LHMU16.
PN3289
MS FRENZEL: Now the relevant piece that I want to take you to, Mr Larkin, is conveniently at the front. And can I ask you - - -
PN3290
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is this under tab 1, is it?
PN3291
MS FRENZEL: Yes, that is right. And it is a photocopy of an order of Commissioner Gay, dated 16 January 1997, varying the Car Parking Victoria Interim Award 1995. Do you have that document? Were you aware of those proceedings, Mr Larkin?---Not fully myself because I don't get involved with these sorts of matters. We have people who deal with that on behalf of our company.
PN3292
Can I put it to you that you have now become aware that the award was varied in 1997?---Yes.
PN3293
And are you aware of any other changes to the classification structure post 1997? If you are not aware, just say, I am not aware?---Outside of safety net increases?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3294
Outside of safety net increases?---I am not aware of any other change.
PN3295
And once again, please say if you are not aware. Are you aware that this variation was processed by consent between the employers and the union?---Through another body, would be VECCI if I am not mistaken.
PN3296
The Victorian Employers Chamber of Commerce and Industry did appear on behalf of the employers?---Then I am aware of that.
PN3297
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is Wilson Car Parking a member of VECCI?---We still are a member, yes.
PN3298
MR O'GRADY: A subscriber member perhaps, your Honour?---Correct.
PN3299
MS FRENZEL: It has the same effect though, doesn't it?
PN3300
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is a nice point of debate in that.
PN3301
MS FRENZEL: Are you aware also that the employers sought the delay component of the 1998 safety net adjustment?---The employers as a whole or individually?
PN3302
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just a moment - - -
PN3303
MR O'GRADY: Your Honour - - -
PN3304
MS FRENZEL: The employers as a whole.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3305
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just a moment, please, there is an objection.
PN3306
MR O'GRADY: I am sorry to keep interrupting my friend but I do wonder at the relevance of what Mr Larkin's awareness of that fact has to the issues in these proceedings?
PN3307
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I mean, I am hopeful this is leading somewhere because his awareness of these matters is not going to make the difference either way is it? I mean, that is a record of how the fact that the variation was made. The evidence is that it was by consent so - - -
PN3308
MS FRENZEL: Okay. Thank you, your Honour, that is helpful. Now, Mr Larkin, can I take you to your proposed classification structure?---Sorry - are we finished with this?
PN3309
Thank you. And that is at attachment A at clause 8?---Clause 8, is it?
PN3310
That is right?---Mm.
PN3311
Now, Mr Larkin, just as a matter of interest, how many employees do you have graded at level 3, currently under the award?---I can't answer that.
PN3312
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Larkin, who in Wilson Car Parking, is responsible for your workplace relations or industrial relations or your human resource management?---We have a combination of an organisational development manager, which also has accompanying her, three other people in the office which also includes the automation of payroll production which has rostering attached to it.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3313
And that person is responsible, are they, for the workplace relations issues and the - - -?---Yes, with the assistance of an external party as well.
PN3314
Yes. Sorry, Ms Frenzel.
PN3315
MS FRENZEL: Now, Mr Larkin, if I ask you the same question about level 1 and level 2 under the award, how many employees do you have graded at those levels? Are you able to answer?---I can answer, the majority of our employees are on level 2.
PN3316
Mr Larkin, how acquainted are you with this proposed classification structure?---Fairly well.
PN3317
Fairly well. Mr Larkin, can I ask you this then. Why do Wilsons, if they are successful with this application, why do Wilsons require that the employee perform all the tasks nominated under the different grades? And that can be found at (a)(i). Why do they require all of the tasks to be done - - -
PN3318
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: By whom?
PN3319
MS FRENZEL: By employees.
PN3320
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: By each and every classification?
PN3321
MS FRENZEL: That is what it says.
PN3322
MR O'GRADY: Well, with respect, it doesn't say that at all. And this is part of the problem. It says:
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3323
The employee must be ready, willing and able to perform all the tasks nominated...
PN3324
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All the tasks what?
PN3325
MR O'GRADY: Nominated.
PN3326
...at the relevant classification level.
PN3327
But it doesn't say that an employee will be required to perform all the tasks.
PN3328
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Of each classification, though, is that?
PN3329
MR O'GRADY: Sorry. The wording in the clause is:
PN3330
For an employee to be classified at a classification specified in subclause 8(b) the employee must be reading, willing and able to perform all the tasks nominated at the relevant classification level.
PN3331
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. So doesn't that confine it to the relevant classification level?
PN3332
MS FRENZEL: Mr Larkin, can I ask you why, with respect to level 1, which is a training position and I will come back to that in a moment, level 2A and 2B, that the indicative tasks are identical?---Level 1 is, if you like, a trainee position under probation, where they are tested, if you like, for want of a better word, in their ability to perform all or any of these functions. Level 2A is for someone who has been employed more than 6 months and who has satisfactorily completed the initial induction. And Level 2B is a continuation of the recognition of their improved skills along the way under employment.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3333
MR O'GRADY: Hang on, before that goes on. It took me some time to check the premise that Ms Frenzel was putting because it sounded wrong and I wanted to make sure I was right, that it was wrong before I objected. But it is wrong, so I am objecting. The indicative tasks in level 1 are not identical with those in level 2A, nor are they identical with those in 2B. All the tasks are not identical. And the key point, your Honour, if I can, is that and this is consistent of course with Mr Larkin's evidence, is that the parking functions that are referred to in level 1, the training position and level 2B, don't appear in level 2A.
PN3334
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, Mr O'Grady, just to clarify that. I mean, I was still doing the same thing as you and I thought that in relation to indicative tasks in level 1 and level 2A, the only distinction was parking cars. I may be wrong about that but that was my assessment of it.
PN3335
MR O'GRADY: And stack and jockey parking, which I suppose is an extension of the same principle, your Honour.
PN3336
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, yes. And then that is the only difference, I think, isn't it, between 2A and 2B?
PN3337
MR O'GRADY: 2A and 2B, I think that is the case, your Honour, yes.
PN3338
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So it is not - I mean, it is inaccurate in the sense that there is that parking facility that is different but - - -
PN3339
MR O'GRADY: Yes, and of course, as Ms Frenzel put to this witness, earlier this morning, one of the key concerns this witness has expressed about the adequacy of the existing classification structure under the award is that it doesn't properly differentiate with respect to the parking functions that some parking attendants are required to undertake. So it is quite an important distinction. And in those circumstance, in my submission, it was an unfair - well, it was inaccurate and it is inaccurate in an important respect, with respect.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3340
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well perhaps you can - - -
PN3341
MS FRENZEL: Maybe it has got to do with the way I put the questions but I said - what I asked were, why are the duties identical level 1 to level 2A to level 2B. And what I was doing was, I was comparing level 1 to 2A and 2B, at the same time.
PN3342
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes but there is a distinction in - - -
PN3343
MS FRENZEL: There is a distinction, that is right.
PN3344
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And parking cars is not in 2A. It is in 1 and 2B.
PN3345
MS FRENZEL: Yes but that - you see, I can clarify it - - -
PN3346
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And stack and jockey car parking.
PN3347
MS FRENZEL: Now, we will come back to the issue of stack and jockey parking and I will ask the question again. Save and except for stack and jockey parking, why are the indicative tasks from level 1 to level 2A and level 2B, identical?---Level 1 is to test the competency and a range of duties they may perform if they are successful in progressing to 2A and 2B. Once you have passed your probation, if you like, for want of a better word, you then are employed as level 2A. And given that there is a requirement and you have identified competency to perform jockey parking, you would be then moved on to level 2B.
PN3348
So how does a person who is classified on a level 2A, under your classification structure, who doesn't do jockey parking, progress to 2B?---It depends on the business providing a requirement for jockey parking where jockey parking is involved and a requirement to have staff fill those roles.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3349
What if they don't do jockey parking, Mr Larkin?---Then they won't be considered. Although they will be offered adequate training again if they so seek to display their competency to do so.
PN3350
So the - - -
PN3351
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So a person can't be classified at level 2B if he is working or she is working in a car park that doesn't have stack or jockey parking, is that right?---Yes, sir. We see jockey parking as an additional skill and rightly so and should be recognised accordingly.
PN3352
Yes, thanks, Ms Frenzel.
PN3353
MS FRENZEL: Can I take you to some of the other requirements. You have given evidence that you have security contractors, security on car parks?---External contractors?
PN3354
Yes?---Yes.
PN3355
Why then do you require your employees under this classification structure, to be competent in routine security and patrol? And that goes through level 1, level 2A and level 2B?---I take your point. And the fundamental difference as I identified yesterday was that when people are doing a patrol there primary role is to do a vacancy count at nominated times. And their very presence adds to a feeling of a heightened customer service cum safety for our patrons in a car park when an attendant is actually doing a patrol.
PN3356
You have also given evidence that you have cleaning contractors in your car park?---Correct.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3357
Could I ask you then why the indicative task of basic cleaning including litter collection, appears at level 1, appears at level 2A and appears at level 2B?---It primarily involves the cleanliness of the workplace, whether it be an office or a booth they may be working in. Certainly it is seen that if there is, for example, a newspaper that opens up and flies across a car park floor, where there is no obvious impact on their occ health and safety, that we would be encouraged by the fact that that paper would be picked up and placed in a bin.
PN3358
Can I put it to you that none of those indicative tasks are defined. Some are self explanatory but none of them are defined?---Within our proposed award?
PN3359
Yes?---Yes, I agree, yes.
PN3360
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: When you said, yesterday, that, "we don't direct them to do cleaning" - - -?---That is correct.
PN3361
- - - but there is an expectation that they will, is it?---It is just very basic. But certainly their work station area is expected to be kept clean. For example, if they are having lunch and they happen to buy take-away food and that the placement of those wrappers and whatever are put in the appropriate receptacle.
PN3362
MS FRENZEL: Mr Larkin, are you aware, exactly, of the type of cleaning that Berkeley Challenge does for you?---I am aware of the specifications, yes.
PN3363
Are you aware those specifications are limited to scrubbing the car parks with scrubbing machines late at night?---On a interim basis, yes. They don't do it every night.
PN3364
On a periodic basis?---Yes, thank you, periodic basis, yes.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3365
And you may not be able to answer this, and to be fair to you, just say you don't know if you don't know. Do the rates that you are suggesting for your classification structure, include or exclude the last $18 safety net adjustment?
PN3366
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Where are they at?
PN3367
MS FRENZEL: I haven't got the page numbers, your Honour, but they are in the back of clause 8.
PN3368
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You don't know off hand?---My recollection is that at the time that this was produced, it recognised all the safety nets that had occurred at that time and indeed would recognise any safety nets going forward was our intention.
PN3369
MS FRENZEL: So it recognised the 2002 safety net?---I am pretty sure it - - -
PN3370
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, recognise which?
PN3371
MS FRENZEL: The 2002 safety net adjustment.
PN3372
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well this application was lodged on 26 June - sorry - these submissions were lodged on 26 June but the draft of the order was made some time before the application wasn't it?
PN3373
MR O'GRADY: Your Honour, if I can perhaps clarify the - my instructions are that it does reflect the most recent safety net adjustment and it flows from paragraph 2 of clause 8, where you will see:
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3374
The ordinary rate for each of the classifications will be in respect to full time, that casual employees applies as at 1 July, as set out in the table below.
PN3375
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, thanks Mr O'Grady.
PN3376
MS FRENZEL: Now, Mr Larkin, you have in front of you a copy of the Car Parking Victoria Interim Award, which is updated to September 2002, the current award. That is the one. Can I draw your attention please, to clause 8, the classifications. Bottom of page 3, you will see the wage rates?---8(a).
PN3377
Yes that is right 8(a)?---Mm.
PN3378
And down below they have got rates of pay. Can you find those?---Page number?
PN3379
Page 3. Now, Mr Larkin, the current level 1 in the award is, if you like, an introductory grade for a period of less than six months. The rate of pay for that is $462 post 2002 safety net adjustment. Your suggested rate, Mr Larkin, was $457.90. It is clear that your proposed rate was lower than the current rate, is it not?---Yes.
PN3380
Now with respect to level 2, level 2, that is for people with more than six months in the industry, under the current award and your level 2A and 2B are also for persons employed for more than six months. Do you agree with that?---Yes.
[11.43am]
PN3381
And the current rate is $482 and your top rate for level 2B is $476.49? Can I put it to you that rate is also lower?---Yes.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3382
Okay. With respect to level 3 the rate currently is $506 a week and your level 3A and 3B, the top rate is $501.10?---Yes.
PN3383
And the rate is lower?---Correct.
PN3384
What is the rationale for that, Mr Larkin?---There is no rationale in terms of trying to dispute what the current award is saying. It is more - - -
PN3385
What is the rationale for trying to decrease the rates, Mr Larkin?---I can't answer that in general terms.
PN3386
Mr Larkin, you gave evidence - innocuous evidence in the following terms:
PN3387
The proposed changes to the classification structure in the award will clarify the duties and responsibilities of employees at each classification level. Level 1 is an entry level for employees into the industry. Level 2A and 2B employees are distinguished on the basis of their ability to undertake car parking and jockey parking functions. Level 3 employees undertake general supervisory functions and 3A and 3B employees can be differentiated by the requirement they are responsible for supervising 2B employees.
PN3388
Can I put it to you that the effect of your classification structure, if it was granted, would mean that employees would incur a pay decrease - - -
PN3389
MR O'GRADY: I object to that, your Honour.
PN3390
MS FRENZEL: - - - based on the minimum rate in the award?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3391
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, what is the basis of your objection?
PN3392
MR O'GRADY: Well, in my submission the classification structure and the table appearing in paragraph 2 are discrete items. I have no objection to the question being put on the basis that if the classification structure was implemented and the rates paid in subparagraph (2) were paid that might have a certain outcome. But the classification structure itself would not have that outcome.
PN3393
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You might assist me. Doesn't the award or the proposed rates in fact seek to reduce the award below the safety net standard?
PN3394
MR O'GRADY: Well, that certainly isn't the intention, your Honour. And to the extent to which it would appear that it does so, then obviously we would be seeking to vary the terms of what we have done. That is certainly not what we are here for. What we are here for is to try and introduce some flexibility.
PN3395
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ms Frenzel, it seems to me - I mean you have already raised the point about those rates being below the safety net standard. That seems to me at the end of the day to be a matter of debate between yourself and Mr O'Grady, doesn't it? What evidence can the witness give that - - -
PN3396
MS FRENZEL: He has already given the evidence about the rates I want to take him to, your Honour.
PN3397
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN3398
MS FRENZEL: I now want to take him back to the classification structure.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3399
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right.
PN3400
MS FRENZEL: Now, Mr Larkin, can you advise the Commission about the differences between the indicative tasks contained in the current award, which start - and there are a series of dot points: parking car, cashier functions, washing cars, dealing with customer enquiries, stack parking there and the difference with the classification structure that Wilsons want. Can you tell us what the difference is with respect to the indicative tasks?---What the parking industry wants. I think the real difference here is that there is a - the 2A - the thrust of 2A and 2B was to - - -
PN3401
No, I want you to deal, firstly - - -?---Sorry.
PN3402
I will come to 2A and 2B?---Sorry.
PN3403
I want you to deal with the indicative tasks?---Indicative tasks?
PN3404
Yes, the dot points - - -?---Mm.
PN3405
- - - on page 3 of the award - - -?---Mm.
PN3406
- - - versus your indicative tasks?---Yes.
PN3407
When I say you I mean the industry?---Yes.
PN3408
Contained in the classification structure that the industry is seeking?---Which level would you like me to compare?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3409
Well, given that there is only one difference between 1 and 2A and 2B, why don't we do?---2B.
PN3410
2B?---2B.
PN3411
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What was the question again, sorry?
PN3412
MS FRENZEL: I want him to highlight the differences between the indicative tasks that he is seeking as an award variation versus the current award.
PN3413
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Righto?---Quite simply it is all items beyond directing traffic on both - in our 2B. They are the differences.
PN3414
MS FRENZEL: All items beyond?---Directing traffic. All items are identical in page 3 compared to 2B, up to and including directing traffic.
PN3415
So your new classification structure - can I put it to you this way. Your new classification structure seeks to introduce the following new tasks, they being basic gardening, data entry, basic equipment maintenance, restocking of auto pay station - - -?---Mm.
PN3416
- - - basic repairs and maintenance and basic cleaning?---Correct.
PN3417
Now, with respect to - before I go to level 2, with respect to level 1 you say that a level 1 parking officer who has little or no experience in the industry is undertaking induction training provided by the employer. Is it your intention that induction training will be accredited training?---The people would be trained by people who are level 2, 3 or higher, or if a particular role requires it there could be accredited training involved as well.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3418
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There could be what training, sorry?---External.
PN3419
External.
PN3420
MS FRENZEL: But, Mr Larkin, level 2 doesn't provide for training of employees in your classification structure as far as - certainly, point it to me if you can find it.
PN3421
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Level 2A and 2B and 3 - sorry, level 2A and 2B you mean?
PN3422
MS FRENZEL: That is right, the training and supervisory functions kick in at level 3, your Honour?---3, yes.
PN3423
So it is not level 2, it is level 3?---No, that is what I - I thought I did say 3.
PN3424
And how do you propose - - -
PN3425
MR O'GRADY: Sorry, your Honour, just so I understand - or I might have misheard Ms Frenzel, I thought she said that level 2A and 2B don't require training.
PN3426
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Level 2A and 2B I think was her proposition; does not incorporate or include the duty of training.
PN3427
MR O'GRADY: Yes. That doesn't require somebody to train?---Mm.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3428
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, it doesn't what?
PN3429
MR O'GRADY: That does not require somebody to train.
PN3430
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Doesn't require somebody to train; I am not sure - - -
PN3431
MR O'GRADY: To be a trainer.
PN3432
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN3433
MR O'GRADY: Yes, that is right.
PN3434
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, that is right.
PN3435
MR O'GRADY: Yes, I understand the question now. I don't object.
PN3436
MS FRENZEL: Let us be clear about it, it will be the level 3s that will do the training?---As a minimum.
PN3437
And with this classification structure how do you propose to train people with respect to occupational health and safety, for example?---We have an oc health and safety committee in our company and that is generic across for all employees, regardless of their status in the company.
PN3438
How do you propose to train new starts in basic occupational health and safety?---We have an induction manual that refers to that matter - that they are given when they start in our company.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3439
How do you propose to train them about routine security in patrols?---About how to do vacancy counts?
PN3440
Well, that is not what their classification structure says, Mr Larkin. It says basic security in patrols. How do you propose to do that?---The function - the intent of the function is not to be a security officer, so - - -
PN3441
I accept that?---Yes.
PN3442
What I am asking you is how do you intend, given that your application has been on foot for a while and you are fully acquainted with the structure you have said?---Mm.
PN3443
How do you intend to train these people to a competent level as required by Wilsons in that particular area?---Area managers or other senior managers identify matters within a car park that they need to be aware of, such as doors that need to be checked for being lodged open, any issues with fire escapes, whether they be blocked, matters such as that.
PN3444
So they don't only do bay counts when they do these routine security patrols, they check doors?---Well, as part of their general safety they should ensure that if they see, for example, that there is some fault with a fire door that they should report the matter.
PN3445
But I thought you employed security contractors to do those sorts of things?---No, security contractors provide security. They don't necessary - during a normal working day if someone, for example, has vandalised a fire door, using this as an example, we wouldn't expect that just to remain idle if in fact a staff member observed it and we would see that they advised their management so that we can address the matter. The same would go for light fittings that are blown and other matters.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3446
But it is not just a bay count, is it, Mr Larkin?---It is their workplace.
PN3447
It is not just a bay count, is it, Mr Lark?---It is to ensure that their workplace is in order.
PN3448
And how do you propose to train these people in opening and closing a car park? Are you going to use your level 3s for that and your area managers?---As a minimum we would use - - -
PN3449
What is the maximum. You keep referring to as a minimum, what is the maximum?---I suppose myself.
PN3450
Are you an accredited trainer, Mr Larkin?---I have been a party to a lot of training.
PN3451
Now, with respect to gardening, how do you propose to change your young level 1s in basic gardening? What are the requirements for basic gardening?---It would be the removal of drink cans and bottles and if there was such a thing, that there was a lawn, for example, that may need mowing from time to time.
PN3452
You want them to mow lawns?---Possibly, yes.
PN3453
What other sorts of gardening would they be required to do?---They wouldn't be expected to plant trees or do such matters. It is just a general maintenance of a garden area that may exist in a car park.
PN3454
Your requirement for data entry, what exactly does that mean?---A completing of a shift report and maybe completion of the conglomeration of shift reports that may have occurred at a car park during a day.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3455
So when you say - you said yesterday - when you said yesterday that it was fully automated - - -?---In most cases it is, yes.
PN3456
- - - it requires the data to be entered, doesn't it?---It is about the reconciliation of moneys, if in fact a till is involved in the day to day business.
PN3457
Okay, explain the reconciliation of the moneys if a till is involved in the equation - explain that to the Commission?---It is about ensuring that the float has - the amount of money in a float, for example, at the start of a shift is still the same amount at the end of a shift. I think, as I explained yesterday, if there are any variations let us make note of that. And there are points on a standard shift report that allows for that data to be entered.
PN3458
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: How is that done?---Physically how is it done?
PN3459
Yes, the data entry, what do they do?---They complete a shift report by hand.
PN3460
And what happens then with that shift report?---That is deposited with any takings and then our - our other people take it - our internal auditors and others then check that for accuracy and follow up any discrepancy that has been noted.
PN3461
So the data entry is a manual entry by handwriting?---Onto a shift report.
PN3462
Onto a shift report. And you refer to that as data entry, do you? Sorry, you will have to say yes or no?---Sorry, yes. I can add to that if you like. It may in fact, going forward, instead of it being manually entered by pen and paper that it could be entered into a spreadsheet. If a suitable computer was provided at a car park they could fill a spreadsheet out.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3463
If there is a suitable computer at the car park?---If there was one.
PN3464
MS FRENZEL: So where you say at paragraph 6 of your statement in June that the only computer functions - sorry, I will quote you directly:
PN3465
The only "computer skills" required by car parking attendants are for the purposes of fee validation where the register actually indicates the applicable fee.
PN3466
That is not correct, is it, Mr Larkin?---Yes, it is.
PN3467
You have just been talking about shift reports, spreadsheets and computer skills and data entry?---Well, let us go through those three. A shift - - -
PN3468
No, no?---A shift - - -
PN3469
No, let us do this?---You asked me to answer.
PN3470
I put it to you that they are not the only computer skills - - -
PN3471
MR O'GRADY: Well, your Honour - - -
PN3472
MS FRENZEL: - - - required by the employer.
PN3473
MR O'GRADY: And, your Honour - - -
PN3474
MS FRENZEL: And it is in his evidence.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3475
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr O'Grady, what is the objection?
PN3476
MR O'GRADY: The objection is that three propositions were put to the witness and when the witness tried to deal with the three propositions he was cut off.
PN3477
MS FRENZEL: I will put them singularly then.
PN3478
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, he answered - but he answered the three propositions. He denied the propositions and that was his answer to that.
PN3479
MR O'GRADY: As your Honour pleases.
PN3480
MS FRENZEL: Mr Larkin, the evidence you just gave about the spreadsheets and the like, is that being done by car parking attendants at the moment?---I am not aware of it.
PN3481
How can you say you are not aware of it but you have also given evidence to say that where there are computers they do it.
PN3482
MR O'GRADY: Well, that is not his evidence, with respect.
PN3483
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Where there is a suitable computer they - - -
PN3484
MR O'GRADY: Well, as I understand it the witness has flagged in the future there may be a move - - -
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3485
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, perhaps I will ask the witness to clarify it because I have got a note of it.
PN3486
MR O'GRADY: Yes, your Honour.
PN3487
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What were you telling me before about the data entry in relation to computers where there is a suitable computer in the car park?---If in fact moving forward we do away with the - because there is provision of a computer at a car park that allows you to complete a shift report onto a computer, and that then is downloaded directly back to our office, rather than the transportation of paper having been manually written. That was the point of difference I made.
PN3488
So there are no car parks at the present time that have suitable computers for that work?---There are a number of car parks that have computers involved with their operating systems, but not as part of a daily function requiring data entry to complete their duties. The actual system is doing the data internally, if you like, but there are a number of computers within a car park that control - access control systems, which is different from, as I see it, data entry.
PN3489
Yes. Well, what is access control systems?---The automation involved with the opening and closing of barrier gates. The computer actually downloads information, for example, from an automatic pay machine and - or a register, keeping a tab of what the takings are. It also provides other reports such as occupancy levels of our permanent parkers at any given time and those sort of matters.
PN3490
And how do you get those reports from the computer?---We have a master administration unit based in our head office which generates those reports overnight for us. They are all linked by telephonic lines.
PN3491
All right. So at this stage nobody actually is required or in fact performs data entry functions on any suitable computers in car parks?---Not that I am aware of.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3492
Good.
PN3493
MS FRENZEL: So, Mr Larkin, why is the reference to data entry in the classification structure then?---There may be a need for it going forward.
PN3494
With respect to basic equipment maintenance I will ask the question in two parts. The first part goes to exactly what do you mean by that?---If it is possible, and having been provided the right amount of training, to unjam a ticket or in some cases with automatic pay machines, for example, you can get a note jam. There is a basic requirement, if you like, using compressed air to blow away ticket dust through ticket readers and we have, if you like, a cleaning card that is inserted in an out of credit card facilities and permanent card receivers just to keep them clean.
PN3495
And who would be undertaking that sort of training of your level 1s?---The appropriate equipment provider.
PN3496
And is that training accredited as well?---I would assume so.
PN3497
You don't know though?---I don't know.
PN3498
And the restocking of auto pay stations - - -?---Mm.
PN3499
- - - what exactly does restocking of auto pay stations involve?---We have a security company - or cash collection I should probably classify it - a cash collection company that comes to car parks where auto pay stations are located and it is a - if you like it is a two key dual - what is the word - both parties need to code in the number and/or have a key to enter the automatic pay machine and these people are in attendance and with the auto pay machines - and inside that auto pay machine, apart from the money which is handled by a coin collection company, there is a requirement to replenish the receipt rolls that is generated through these automatic paying machines.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3500
And who is going to train the levels 1s to do that?---The level 1?
PN3501
Yes, I am dealing with level 1?---Yes, the appropriate equipment supplier. That is part of their induction.
PN3502
How long is the induction?---I would imagine it could take up to three months, maybe even up to six if required, depending on the complexity of a car park that we may wish to have this person remain at, but in general terms three to six months.
PN3503
Now, is the basic repairs and maintenance the same as basic equipment maintenance, and if not what is the difference?---One deals with equipment and I think basic maintenance may also include possibly the replenishment of - I am just trying to think what the difference could be. An example, the maintenance of any reserve signage that may be on a wall that may, for whatever reason, have come away, to have that retacked to a wall.
PN3504
Light globes?---No, that is done by electricians, qualified electricians.
PN3505
Changing a light globe in the booth is done by an electrician?---It should be, yes.
PN3506
So what other basic repairs and maintenance other than sticking signs on walls?---I don't see that much to be honest.
PN3507
So, Mr Larkin, if it is not that much to be honest why is it there?---So it is recognised.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3508
Under basic cleaning - can I take you back to that. I have got a particular interest in cleaners, your Honour. Would the basic cleaning include sweeping the car park of leaves and those sorts of things?---It could, given that, for example, there may be, you know, as we have in Melbourne from time to time major cool changes where for whatever reason a number of leaves, especially in autumn, get blown in and if there was a lot of leaves in an area where there was pedestrian traffic which could in fact impede or affect pedestrian traffic, if a broom was available, which more often it would be, we would expect if - that a general sweep away from that area would occur by the staff on site.
PN3509
Would it include perhaps cleaning the toilets?---No.
PN3510
You wouldn't require any staff to keep the toilet clean?---No, no.
PN3511
Are you aware of how often your cleaning contractors go - Berkeley Challenge go through the car parks for you?---It varies from car park to car park but on average I would say it is three, maybe four times a week on average. Some are seven days a week. It depends on the utilisation of the car park.
PN3512
Let us deal with the three to four day a week car park?---Mm.
PN3513
What happens if the toilet is unacceptably dirty and the cleaner is not due for a couple of days?---The cleaner is called back.
PN3514
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, what was that?---The cleaner is called back.
PN3515
MS FRENZEL: And that happens in all cases you are aware of?---Yes, and regularly happens.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3516
Now, Mr Larkin, with respect to your car parks what is the - and let us go small, medium large - small car parks, how many staff are rostered on at any given time?---More often than not just the one I would suggest.
PN3517
Just the one, okay?---Small car parks, yes.
PN3518
And just so we are really clear about what we are doing here, how would you define a small car park?---A small car park doesn't necessarily mean in terms of bays. It really just means in terms of its business if I can use the term. So probably not best using small, medium or large, probably we should talk in terms of activity.
PN3519
Quiet, less quiet and busy?---Yes.
PN3520
Okay?---So a quiet car park where, if you like, the majority of users park and stay all day and there is very minimum movement during the day, would probably only have one person working there.
PN3521
One person. And your quiet car park, would that include - that wouldn't involve jockey parking, would it?---It can but not necessarily, but it can.
PN3522
Okay. And your not so quiet car park?---Where there is a high level of activity, again it depends whether there is one or two lanes involved or more lanes than one, it is a pay on exit system, similarly for a pay on entry system.
PN3523
Just an - - -?---Sorry.
PN3524
Just an average number of staff that you would roster on a not so quiet car park?---Are you talking about per shift or for a whole day?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3525
Per shift?---Per shift, one to two, maybe three.
PN3526
So between one and three, is that fair?---Yes.
PN3527
And your busy car park on a shift, how many staff on average?---Again it depends on how many lanes are activated at any one time.
PN3528
All right, I accept that?---I would suggest it could be - well, we have as many as 12 people at certain car parks, but the answer to that would be then say 6 to 12.
PN3529
6 to 12?---Mm.
PN3530
But how many really busy car parks do you have that would fall into the 6 to 12 category?---Okay. Do you want me - just a quick calculation it would be maybe 20.
PN3531
20?---May be 20.
PN3532
And are you acquainted with the car park at 180 Russell Street; is that a busy car park?---180 Russell Street?
PN3533
Yes?---It has a fair amount of movement. It is assisted with auto pay machines.
PN3534
And are you aware of how many staff are rostered on there per shift?---At any one time?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3535
Any one time?---For the function of operating the car park - - -
PN3536
Yes?--- - - - as compared to other duties that are performed there?
PN3537
What other duties are performed there?---Well, it is used as a regional centre.
PN3538
No, just the car park?---Just the actual running of the car park?
PN3539
Yes?---Well, again there is a range of shifts that come with that car park because it operates seven days, 24 hours. There are two people there in the morning, two during the - yes, probably two and one overnight with the assistance of security on busy nights.
PN3540
Okay. Now, if you could have a look at your level 3 and I think you said in your evidence that you wanted to provide further recognition of supervisory functions. Was it your intention with level 3A and 3B that these employees would work at a single car park or multiple car parks?---Both. The option is there for both.
PN3541
Okay, single car park is easier to deal with. The multiple car parks, how many car parks would a level 3A or 3B be required to supervise?---Maybe six or seven.
PN3542
And how do you envisage that supervisions occurring?---By being mobile and visiting the sites, being contactable by our staff members who have required direct to that person.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3543
And would they in the CBD walk from car park to car park or would they take public transport or would they drive?---It would depend; we may in fact provide the transportation for them. It just really depends on their sphere of influence and the practicality in terms of timing to get to and from various sites.
[12.13pm]
PN3544
And if your classification structure is successful, how many 3As and 3Bs would you envisage employing that had multi site supervisory functions?---There could be six, there could be 12.
PN3545
Okay, and how many - - -?---Depends on the, obviously as I understand, it depends on how much business we do or don't have at any given time.
PN3546
Sure. And how many single sites, 3As and 3Bs would you envisage being employed?---There could be up to half a dozen.
PN3547
Okay?---Depending on the operation. At Melbourne, for example, there would be a lot of - I would think there would be at least three, if not four, 3As and 3Bs engaged at that site.
PN3548
And how - just, well, let us use Melbourne Central as an example because we can all identify with it. How many employees are currently rostered there, do you know?---At any one time?
PN3549
Any one time, per shift?---About six, if not - - -
PN3550
About six?---At least six, I would say.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3551
How many of your car parks have less than five employees?---At any one time?
PN3552
Per shift?---Per shift? I would say the majority of them.
PN3553
The majority of them?---At this particular time in our business, yes.
PN3554
Okay. I understand of course it can fluctuate. Okay. Level 3A requires - is my understanding correct, Mr Larkin? Level 3A requires the employees being able to do all the functions of a level 2B, I understand that bit. But they all must - I will start again. They must also directly supervise and train not less than five employees, none of which are a car parking level 2B?
PN3555
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What is the question?
PN3556
MS FRENZEL: How many level 3As with those sorts of restrictions do you envisage employing?---How many people we engage on level 3A?
PN3557
With those tests?---I don't rightly know.
PN3558
Okay. And the tests also include:
PN3559
They must do this on a regular and ongoing basis and for the majority of an employee's ordinary hours.
PN3560
Can I put it to you that if somebody is graded a level 3A and spends the majority of his or her time doing stack parking, that he or she would not be graded a level 3 under the classification structure, even though they were supervising people?---Are you saying - sorry, could you ask that again?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3561
A level 3A employee who spends one-third - sorry, half their time doing level 2B functions, would not be graded as level 3A under the scope of this clause?---I don't think I agree with that.
PN3562
The clause says:
PN3563
Must directly supervise and train - - -
PN3564
MR O'GRADY: Your Honour, the question has been asked and, once again, it comes back to the same old vice of asking this witness to interpret a clause. But, as your Honour said earlier, if the question is going to be asked, and Ms Frenzel is stuck with the answer.
PN3565
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right.
PN3566
MR O'GRADY: He has expressed his view as to what the clause means.
PN3567
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right. That is right, isn't it, Ms Frenzel? He has expressed a view about it, he doesn't necessarily agree with what you say, but that is his evidence. What is the point you make again?
PN3568
MS FRENZEL: The point is, your Honour, is that the majority of car parks have less than five employees, that is his evidence.
PN3569
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN3570
MS FRENZEL: Level 3A requires people to train on a site or sites where there are not less than five employees and for the majority of the employees ordinary working hours.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3571
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN3572
MR O'GRADY: Well, we would take issue with that interpretation, of course, your Honour.
PN3573
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, that is an issue that you can argue.
PN3574
MR O'GRADY: Yes, precisely, your Honour.
PN3575
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But you have put your point to Mr Larkin and he disagrees, or you were given an answer that is necessarily agreeable with what you say about it anyway, so - - -
PN3576
MS FRENZEL: I am not - it would be a perfect world if he agreed with me, your Honour.
PN3577
I do want to ask you about level 3B because the tests are different though. I am sorry, just one more question about level 3A. Mr Larkin, if you had a level 2B on the site, in your role as manager, would you grade somebody at level 3A? If you had more than five employees and a 3A supervising the training, but you had a 2B on the site, would you grade them as level 3A?---I think I understand your question. To be training more than five people at a time?
PN3578
Not less than five?---Yes. Five or more at a time? Would we - is your question would we classify someone who has a higher duty from a 2B to a 3A to perform that function?
PN3579
No, I am asking you whether you would grade that person at 3A, not put them on higher duties, whether you would grade that person for the purpose of their weekly wage, there is a difference?---Whilst they are doing their training, is that what you are asking?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3580
No, for the duration of their working week?---For the whole week?
PN3581
Yes?---Where they may have just trained for two hours in that week?
PN3582
No, because they have got to train for the majority of hours, don't they, under sub-clause (b)? I will put it to you this way. And the question goes both to level 3A and 3B because the tests are, with respect to that point, are the same. You have a level 3A or 3B who spends 60 percent of their time directly supervising and training not less than five employees. Would you classify that person as 3A or 3B for the entire week or just for the time when he or she was training the other employees and supervising them?---If that person was graded as a 2B and we are asking them to perform 3As functions. Is that what you are asking?
PN3583
No, I am asking if the employee was 3A or 3B already?---Well, if he was 3A already, then he is being paid 3A.
PN3584
So you are paying for the entire week?---Well, I think you miss - maybe if I can clarify. If you are a 3A, you are a 3A.
PN3585
Okay?---Right? Not just for a day or a minute, you are a 3A.
PN3586
So you would pay it for all hours?---Well, if you have - if you like, been promoted to 3A, then you are 3A going forward.
PN3587
And what happened if the following week he wasn't - he or she wasn't required to train anybody for the majority of ordinary hours?---Still be a 3A.
PN3588
Okay?---It is not an interim level like we use for a couple of hours. It is, if you like, it is a level that is recognised in terms of their engagement and they would have a letter of employment that would recognise it accordingly.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3589
Now the current award, says this, and once again, I am sure my friend will object to this - - -
PN3590
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, just before you go on, I mean, your evidence is they continue to get it and I know this is a question of interpretation, but when Mr O'Grady comes to argue with me about this, it is something that I am going to ask him, so I might as well ask you. What is the purpose then of having a clause as a regular and ongoing basis and for the majority of the employee's ordinary hours? If they are classified as a level 3A, you say that they remain a level 3A on an ongoing basis. But that seems to suggest there that they have to be training not less than five employees on a regular and ongoing basis and for the majority of their ordinary hours.
PN3591
MR O'GRADY: Your Honour?
PN3592
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr O'Grady.
PN3593
MR O'GRADY: The clause of course says supervise and train. There is no suggestion in the clause that one has to be training for that period of time.
PN3594
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So you are saying then that it just means supervise, or train?
PN3595
MR O'GRADY: Or train.
PN3596
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Well, so long as you are going to continue that argument when you come to deal with the matter, that is okay.
PN3597
MR O'GRADY: Yes, well, it is certainly my understanding, your Honour, and I may have to be corrected on this, but it is my - - -
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3598
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, it is just the evidence of the witness is, if they are classified as a level 3A, they remain a level 3A.
PN3599
MR O'GRADY: Yes.
PN3600
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now, that isn't necessarily consistent with paragraph (b) of the classification 3A and I just thought, as a matter of fairness again, I just wanted to hear him say what he thinks about that.
PN3601
MR O'GRADY: My understanding, your Honour, is that is - the witnesses' view is what is intended to be achieved by the clauses. Now, to the extent to which they can be better drafted or revised to reflect that view, obviously that is something that can be done.
PN3602
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right.
PN3603
MS FRENZEL: Mr Larkin, with level 3A and 3B, what happens to the employee who supervises and trains three employees?---I can't see that we have recognised that in our classifications. If you are supervise and/or train, or both, you would be at least a 3A.
PN3604
But what if it is less than five employees? What if it is four employees? Can I put it to you that that person would be a 2A or 2B, depending on whether or not they were doing jockey parking?---It is possible.
PN3605
The current level 3 in the award says that a car parking officer of this level may be responsible for supervising employees. Would you agree it would appear that you are putting an additional requirement of training on existing level 3 employees?---
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3606
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, where were you reading from?
PN3607
MS FRENZEL: I am sorry, it is clause 8, little (a), sub-clause (ii), little three. And it is car parking officer, level 3. And it says - and it is on the bottom of page three, your Honour, and it says:
PN3608
A car parking officer level 3 is an employee with extensive experience within the industry and who is able to perform all the skills and tasks of a level 2.
PN3609
That is consistent with 3A and 3B:
PN3610
A car parking officer at this level may be responsible for supervising employees at a particular location or locations and for assisting in the provision of training.
PN3611
So would you agree that you are placing an additional requirement on your 3As and 3Bs not currently found in the existing level 3?---No, I don't necessarily agree with that because in the award it has got assisting in the provision and training, as well as supervising and in 3A and 3B, supervision and training is also mentioned. I think it is just how much weight you put on training as a trainer compared to assist training, which is in the existing award.
PN3612
But - - -?---It is an interpretation. I think the intent is both there.
PN3613
Isn't there a key difference, Mr Larkin, between a level 3 may be responsible and a level 3A or 3B must directly supervise. Isn't that a fairly quantum leap, Mr Larkin?---No.
PN3614
Okay?---I don't think so.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3615
Okay. Now returning to the rates, there is another issue I have with the rates. Is there any additional loading or penalty in your 2A, 2B, 3A, 3B that you are aware of?
PN3616
MR O'GRADY: What does the question mean, your Honour? I must say I don't understand it.
PN3617
MS FRENZEL: Because when you divide the - - -
PN3618
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, ask the question again.
PN3619
MS FRENZEL: Is there any additional loading in the hourly rates off the weekly rates, that you are aware of?
PN3620
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What do you mean by loading?
PN3621
MS FRENZEL: Well, when you divide the weekly rates by 38, you don't get that - you don't get the amounts that are specified there. Are you aware of that?---I am aware that at a particular meeting I drew attention to the fact that a draft document was incorrect in its calculations. I can recall that. And I, to be honest, don't know whether I am reading a document that had subsequently been changed.
PN3622
Okay?---But I did pick up in my own calculations that, in a draft document, as put together by our contractors there, had made a mistake. So I can agree that this may not necessarily reflect what I believe is an accurate split of 38 hours.
PN3623
Okay?---May I add something?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3624
You have been adding things all day, you may as well keep going now. Go on?---I am not convinced, as I sit here, that this actually - I personally am not convinced that this actually reflects the latest safety net and I am happy to be stood corrected on that.
PN3625
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But what - sorry, Ms Frenzel, what do you say is the appropriate hourly rate according to the award as it exists at the present time? Not what is in the draft here?
PN3626
MS FRENZEL: The hourly rates, we say, are - hang on, sorry, your Honour, what was the question, was it compared to the current award?
PN3627
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. On a 40 hour week, what is the current hourly rate?
PN3628
MS FRENZEL: The current hourly rates for level 1 are 12.15. Level 2, 12.69 and - - -
PN3629
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just a sec. 12.15, yes.
PN3630
MS FRENZEL: 12.69 for level 2.
PN3631
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN3632
MS FRENZEL: This is based on a 38 hour deviser by the way, your Honour, just so you are aware of that.
PN3633
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, I was - yes, go on, what is - tell me the other one, what is - - -
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3634
MS FRENZEL: And 13.21 and if you give us a couple of minutes, we can do them on a 40 hour deviser for you.
PN3635
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you want a lend of my calculator?
PN3636
MS FRENZEL: The first two rates, your Honour, are 11.55 and 12.05. And the last rate is 12.65 on a 40 hour deviser.
PN3637
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN3638
MS FRENZEL: But what I - the calculations that I did using my calculator are, with respect to these rates, were based on a 38 hour deviser, given that - - -
PN3639
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, no, I appreciate that.
PN3640
MS FRENZEL: Yes.
PN3641
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am just trying to find out why this discrepancy appears in the hourly rates and the weekly rates that are shown in this document and I was just trying to find some sort of reason for that, but I can't see it still.
PN3642
MS FRENZEL: No, I couldn't find it either, your Honour. What we did also, just for your Honour's attention, was we did calculations of the current rates, the current award rates based on a 38 hour deviser, and those rates are as follows: 12.15, 12.68 and 13.31.
PN3643
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: 13.31?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3644
MS FRENZEL: That is right.
PN3645
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN3646
MS FRENZEL: Mr Right has got 21.
PN3647
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I had 21 before. All right. Sorry, I interrupted you.
PN3648
MS FRENZEL: That is okay. So the - okay, if we now move on to your suggested hours of work clause, though we have dealt with part of this already. And can I ask you this, Mr Larkin, because it might, sort of, truncate things a little. What is the - what exactly are the employer's seeking with respect to the hours of work clause?---Two things. Firstly to identify and recognise that normal trading patterns that occurs in car parks in this particular town require car parks to be open more often than not, including Saturday and Sunday, and to recognise that Saturday is part of a normal week in its entirety, I think up to 7.30 was the time. And the second thing is to identify going forward that if you are a shift worker, that the hours of engagement over a, for example, three week time frame are paid on a 38 - well, you get a quantum of 38 hours a week for the work you do but if you do any more than whatever it is, 7.6 hours, on a given day that we would obviously respect that overtime should be paid beyond that time frame. But to have, if you like, an award that is relevant to our current industry.
PN3649
Okay.
PN3650
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So paying, you say, overtime would be recognised in respect of hours in excess of 7.6 on any one day?---That is the deviser of 38, yes.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3651
Yes.
PN3652
MS FRENZEL: Okay, if we can just deal with the first one, and you were very specific where you talked about normal trading in this town. Okay. Now, why then do you require the flexibility to roster up to 10 ordinary hours per day?---That, if you like, allows for a person to be engaged, for example, for three and a half days to achieve their full week.
PN3653
And is it correct also that the employee would therefore enjoy more leisure time?---Employee?
PN3654
Yes, if they work their hours up in three and a half days?---Yes, that would form part of the net benefit, yes.
PN3655
And they would in effect - I will rephrase that. I take it you would roster these employees, for argument sake, to work three and a half days?---That is part of the potential equation, yes.
PN3656
Yes. So therefore the days when they were not rostered would be rostered days off?---Correct.
PN3657
And with respect to - and this question goes both to day workers and shift workers, when would you - no, I will withdraw that. Would there be any variation, in your view - no, I will withdraw that as well. Mr Larkin, in your application - when I say you I mean the industry's application, it says that:
PN3658
They can only be rostered to a maximum of 7.6 hours or 10 hours.
PN3659
Why wouldn't the employers want more flexibility to roster between 7.6 and 10 as opposed to 7.6 or 10?---The intention is up to 10 hours at any one engagement.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3660
Okay. Can I just get you to have a look at that clause because, I mean, that is not what the clause says. It is clause 9 of the employer proposal and you will find that under 9(b), and you will also find it at 9(d), it says or. So it is not either/or?---Okay.
PN3661
It is one or the other?---
PN3662
MR O'GRADY: Well, with respect, your Honour, once again this is the vice of asking this witness to interpret what these words actually mean. We would say that it is - well, I don't want to be accused of suggesting answers to the witness but it is really going to be a matter of construction to your Honour, for your Honour. The witness has given evidence about what he is hoping to achieve by these clauses. Whether they do so or not is really a matter of submission, in my respectful submission.
PN3663
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ms Frenzel, you can put to the witness, can't you, well, what you are hoping to achieve is less than what you are claiming or something like that, without going to the question of interpretation of what the clause means.
PN3664
MS FRENZEL: Mr Larkin, can I put to you that what you actually want to achieve is less than what your claim contains?---No, up to a maximum of 7.6 hours or up to a maximum of 10 hours, subject to mutual agreement. Up to a maximum.
PN3665
Now how do you propose to record the agreement between the individual employee and the employer?---This agreement would potentially apply to a particular car park and there would be a letter, a formal letter, written to the employee and countersigned by the employee acknowledging that these conditions apply to this employee who works at this site for the period that he works at this site. If, for example, we lose that car park, that person would revert to what are the award conditions at the time.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3666
So you would write a letter to the employee saying, "We want you to work 10 hours, please sign", is that what you are saying?---We would put a roster to an employee for them to consider, if they are happy with that roster, both parties would sign off saying, "I am happy with this roster".
PN3667
What if the employee wasn't happy but wanted to stay at the same car park?---It is due to - it has to be an agreement.
PN3668
No, I accept that?---Yes.
PN3669
I am saying what would happen if the employee in question said, "No, I want to keep working my 7.6 hours but I like working at my car park"?---No, we retain the right that they can work at any car park because the nature of our business - we can't guarantee that the car park will be under the control of, for example, Wilson Parking, for the life of their employment.
PN3670
I accept that. But say, for argument sake, you had the contract there for the next two years, you had no performance issues with the employee in question, he or she was a good employee, all he or she said was, "No, I want to keep working my 7.6 hours, I have got my life structured around it and I like working at this car park because it is close to my public transport". You know, a whole range - a mood of reasons that employees give for working at particular locations. What would happen to that employee then?---We would be flexible in our thinking in terms of having a mutually satisfactory outcome for all parties.
PN3671
Would that involve the transfer of the employee?---Not necessarily.
PN3672
And you gave evidence before that you would transfer the employee?---
PN3673
MR O'GRADY: Well, no, that, with respect, that is not what the evidence was.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3674
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What do you say the evidence was?
PN3675
MR O'GRADY: Well, in my submission, the witness mentioned the possibility of transfer but I don't think at any stage he said that, if an employee refused to work the 10 hours, he would be transferred.
PN3676
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think that is right, Ms Frenzel.
PN3677
MS FRENZEL: Would you seek to - no, I withdraw that. And with respect to agreeing to alter the spread of hours, that is at 9(b), what would be the repercussions if an employee, or a majority of employees, did not agree to alter the spread to extend their ordinary hours?---Then we wouldn't have an agreement.
PN3678
What would be the repercussions on the employees?---I don't really see where you are coming from.
PN3679
If the employees said - you have got tests - - -
PN3680
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You are talking about an existing employee, not a new - - -
PN3681
MS FRENZEL: No, that is right. I am talking about a group of employees working at a car park and the employer approaches them and says "we would like agreement to extend your spread of hours under this provision" and the employees said "well, no, we actually like working our spread because we might get paid overtime" or whatever, what would happen in those sorts of circumstances?---Well we wouldn't reach an agreement.
PN3682
And there would be no impact on the employees, is that right?---I can't say I have any right to do otherwise, on that issue.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3683
Subclause (e) over the page:
PN3684
An employee on afternoon or night shift shall have a break for not less than 10 consecutive hours between shifts.
PN3685
And you say:
PN3686
By agreement with an individual employee and the employer, that break can be truncated.
PN3687
What would be the effect on the company's operations at a particular car park if the employee did not agree to truncate the shift - shift break, sorry?---It wouldn't happen.
PN3688
So you would just leave the rosters as they are?---In basic terms of - I think it is only fair - well I have no issue with a 10 hour break between shifts.
PN3689
So why is it there then?---Because there are times when, in fact, in discussions with employees, they have manufactured a roster of their own that suits both their and our purposes which may, in fact, require - it is optional but someone has put to us look, I am prepared to come back eight hours later because I want to finish at, say, midday, because I am doing a night course, I am doing a university course, I would like to be away by 2 o'clock, are you happy with that? This is, if you like, recognising that from time to time we have had those occasions where it has been put to us, rather than us putting. It is not the intention of the employer to have less than a 10 hour break. It is there to recognise that from time to time, employees have come to us asking whether they can actually have a shorter period between a shift to satisfy another matter for them outside of our work.
PN3690
So why don't you say "upon request by an employee" then?---What we do say is "by agreement between an individual employee and the employer". Not necessarily saying who instigates the agreement.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3691
No, but your evidence is that the reason this is here is because of a demand by your employees?---Not a demand, a request.
PN3692
No, when I say demand I mean as in supply and demand. I don't mean demand as in - - -?---Sorry.
PN3693
And that is your evidence and I am asking you now why that clause doesn't say "at the request of the employee"?---Because we may request it.
PN3694
Okay.
PN3695
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are you going on to something different, Ms Frenzel?
PN3696
MS FRENZEL: Just one last question about that particular subclause, your Honour, and then I will be moving on. And why is there a requirement that no overtime was worked between shifts? What does that mean? Actually no, I will withdraw that because I am asking you to interpret. Why is there a requirement that no overtime was worked between shifts?---We do not see fit to roster people with overtime included with less than a 10 hour break between the commencement of their next shift.
PN3697
I have got no further questions thanks, your Honour, in respect to that point.
PN3698
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Would it be a convenient time?
PN3699
MS FRENZEL: It would be, your Honour, yes thank you.
PN3700
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We will adjourn until 2.15. Did you yet receive a copy of that list of - - -
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3701
MS FRENZEL: I haven't yet, your Honour, no, but they are available though.
PN3702
MR O'GRADY: That is available, as are the multiple copies of the Wilson Parking induction document, your Honour.
PN3703
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very good. Thanks very much. And copies will be made available to me after lunch as well, will they?
PN3704
MR O'GRADY: Yes, your Honour.
PN3705
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right.
PN3706
MR O'GRADY: I only, I suppose, come to my feet in the light of the time that we are taking. It may be that at some time we are going to have to address the issue of the further progress of this matter.
PN3707
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Perhaps we will resume at 2 o'clock today, as a matter of fact, but just on that, I have other matters on this afternoon, two other matters on, starting at - oh, 4 o'clock has been cancelled so we can go through until 4.30 this afternoon.
PN3708
MR O'GRADY: I suppose my concern was a bit more fundamental in that it would appear that my friend has more questions that she wishes to ask this witness and at this stage I don't see any reason for hoping that she will take less time with the remaining two respondent witnesses and I don't mean to be critical of her in that, it is just an observation. That means that we are going to be unlikely to finish these witness' evidence by close of business tomorrow, then of course we have the issue of the preparation of the Excel spreadsheet that your Honour referred to and those matters and I just wanted to raise it as a general issue as to perhaps the further progress of this matter.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3709
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Just let me get my diary and we will have a look. I mean it is something that we can discuss later on today but just to give some indication of what the position looks like at the present time, there is really nothing before the end of the year. My associate reminds we have got 25 December.
PN3710
MR O'GRADY: Your Honour, did your Honour recall the anecdote about the Honourable Kirby J. Apparently when he was appointed, Sir Gerard Brennan - an anecdote from Sir Gerard Brennan was circulating that on Christmas Day, Sir Gerard had to contact Kirby J because they were both on the Law Reform Commission at the time and nobody could find Kirby J and Sir Gerard said, oh, he will be in chambers and duly, chambers were rung and his Honour answered the phone and there he was beavering away.
PN3711
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well I won't be. The week of 13 January is free and then the week of 27 January.
PN3712
MR O'GRADY: Your Honour, perhaps if my friend and I could keep that in mind and we might have further discussions over the adjournment.
PN3713
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well. The matter is adjourned until 2 o'clock.
LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.49pm]
RESUMED [2.03pm]
JOHN LARKIN:
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3714
MS FRENZEL: Now Mr Larkin, before the luncheon adjournment, we were discussing the employer's proposed clause 9, hours of employment. If I could now take you to subclause (f) which is the split shift provision. My question I have for you, Mr Larkin, with respect to the split shift, before I go to the operational issues, which we will use the graphs for, why do the employers intend not to pay penalties, in terms of overtime, with respect to split shifts? Why does the rate of pay exclude overtime penalty rates for a split shift?---If they work in a period where penalty rates apply, they would be applied the penalty rate.
PN3715
Okay. And how would you, if you were to have split shifts, how would you roster those split shifts?---Invariably, if used at all, it would be used in a situation where there was a period of activity in the morning, nothing during the day and a period of activity in the afternoon, where it may suit to apply a split shift scenario. For example, jockey parking in the morning and jockey parking in the afternoon, it may apply.
PN3716
And what spread of hours would you envisage a split shift entailing?---The normal allowable working hours if it was a full-timer.
PN3717
Are you referring to day workers or shift workers because the spread will still be there, Mr Larkin?---Probably to both but again, if there was a shift involved in that split, the penalties that are applicable to that split would be paid.
PN3718
So if we use your spread of hours, which you find for day workers of 6 am to 7.30 pm, would it be your company's intention, if you used them at all, to roster people first thing in the morning and then the peak hour in the afternoon?---That is the more likely scenario.
PN3719
And am I correct in the assumption that it is also your intention not to pay them any split shift penalty if the hours of work fall within the spread of 6 am to 7.30 pm?---That's correct.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3720
And these split shifts, would they apply to full-timers, part-timers or casuals or all three or perhaps a combination of two?---I think it is more relevant to full-timers and part-timers than it is to casuals.
PN3721
Why couldn't you roster part-timers in the morning and the afternoon?---We could.
PN3722
What is the necessity for a split shift?---There may be a situation in a building, for example, that only requires our attendance for a period in the morning and a period in the afternoon.
PN3723
Do you have such a building on your sites at the moment?---We have periods of work that would sort of suggest that but I am thinking more in terms of the heightened security in a lot of buildings these days where they shut the car park down once their clients have arrived, their tenants, and then reopen the car park in the afternoon once the tenants are due to go home.
PN3724
What happens if a tenant in the middle of the day has some sort of domestic emergency and has to get his or her car out?---They would call us.
PN3725
What would stop your company rostering part-timers - I am talking about the same question - part-timers to do work at one end of the day and another part-timer at the end of the day. What would stop that?---Well nothing really.
PN3726
What would stop you rostering casuals to do the same thing?---Again, nothing.
PN3727
Now with respect to your shifts - I am talking more about shift work now as in afternoon and night shift, is it your intention that employees engaged in afternoon shift and night shift would be paid the shift penalties for the entire duration of their shift or only for the hours worked outside the spread - or sorry, within the shift times as you define over the page at subclause (a)?---I think it is quite clear what (g), (h) and (i) mean.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3728
I might return to the issue of shift penalties in one moment. With respect to subclause (m), rotating shift work, exactly - I know it says:
PN3729
... means a full-time or part-time employee engaged in a seven day rotating shift roster.
PN3730
But how would that work in practice?---How it currently works or how would it work?
PN3731
Well how it currently works and then how it would work in the future?---I see no difference in the future. How it currently works is the intention of how we intend it to continue is that people are engaged invariably over a seven day period which allows for, on a roster that more often than not includes a three week rotation, days off during the week and or weekends and they rotate through.
PN3732
On how many sites do you have this three week rotating roster?---Most sites where we operate seven days a week.
PN3733
And if you had a three week roster, would you give three weeks notice to change that roster?---We normally give one week's notice to anyone - seven days notice for a change in shift patterns.
PN3734
Now I might just take you back a bit and deal with the incidence clause and then continue working through the document. If I can draw your attention to clause 4. Now I understand perfectly the subclause (a). Can I ask you why, from your company's perspective, you wish to limit the operation of the award to only persons who are engaged in one of the classifications of the award?---Because the classifications within the award deal with the greater majority of work to be performed in our industry as we speak.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3735
And with respect to what I will call the exemption clause, how did that clause come about?---Which clause are you referring to?
PN3736
Sorry, subclause (b)?---(b)? We have a number of staff who we classify - or are recognised within our group as highly skilled and highly competent and in fact we engage them on a salaried basis rather than pay them by the hour.
PN3737
And how much is that salary on average? I am not asking for specific examples but give the average salary?---It is in the order of about $36,000 to $38,000 a year.
PN3738
And what does that salary cover?---I don't quite understand.
PN3739
Do they get paid overtime?---No.
PN3740
Shift penalties?---No.
PN3741
Do they work a 40 or 38 hour week?---Invariably it is 40 hours a week.
PN3742
Are they required to work over any day of the week?---More often than not, they are working Monday through Friday.
PN3743
The reason I am asking you these questions, Mr Larkin, is because on my estimations, subclause (b) is going to block somebody out who earns about $700 a week, which I put to you is substantially less than what you are paying your salaried staff?---I haven't done the calculation but the intention of subclause (b) is to identify a certain level above what you would normally be paid under the award that we would pay a salary above that amount, which would then bind them by a contract with us rather than under the terms of the award.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3744
And you gave previous evidence about level 3A and level 3B possibly supervising more than one site. Can I put it to you at this point in time that it is the role of your area managers?---No.
PN3745
Do you have any roving supervisors currently covered by the award?---We have people who train people at their site where, for example, if we have a group of inductees that need to identify how a certain range of equipment may operate and the mechanics of it and the machinations of it, they would be trained by that person at their site.
PN3746
Okay. I think we were talking about that person, aren't we, who was the roving supervisor?---No. It can be sedentary in the car park, recognised for their training and expertise and paid accordingly.
PN3747
Yes, but Mr Larkin, you gave evidence before that the intention of level 3A and 3B could be that they were either supervising on one site or supervising over a number of sites. Now the question I am putting to you is is that the role currently of the area managers?---No.
PN3748
Okay. And Mr Larkin, with respect to subclause B, what is your company's intention with respect to auditing these people's wages and conditions to ensure than they actually get wages and conditions at least equal to the award?---We have an automated rostering system that has a model that identifies all the parameters of the award as it currently exists and whatever variation is going forward and pays accordingly.
PN3749
What is your intention about auditing into the future?---We audit on a weekly basis when we run payroll.
PN3750
And what conditions of employment would you employ these people under, the ones that you were trying to exempt from the terms of the award?---What conditions? Well nothing erroneous. It is basically a contract that identifies the roles to be performed, the level of remuneration that will be paid, including annual leave and sick leave entitlements.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3751
What would those entitlements be?---Which?
PN3752
Annual leave and sick leave for example?---If the salaried officer, for example, is required to work more than two out of three weekends, they get five weeks annual leave. If they don't have to work weekend work as a normal function of that role, they would get four weeks annual leave. We invariably offer 10 days sick leave and the other standard entitlements, leave loading, for example, parental leave, bereavement leave, all those sorts of issues.
PN3753
So is subclause (b) designed to cover your area managers and above?---Area managers would fall into that pool of people that are employed by Wilson Parking but area managers, if you like, are very senior within our group. They are not, if you like, the next level up from a car park supervisor.
PN3754
Well what is the next level up from a car park supervisor?---Probably someone who is working in our office performing some sort of statistical or audit role, internal audit role.
PN3755
But wouldn't that be clerical and administrative work?---Yes.
PN3756
Wouldn't they be covered by the terms of another award?---No, not necessarily.
PN3757
Is your company respondent to any other awards of this Commission operating within the State of Victoria?---We have two EBAs running with another union.
PN3758
Within Victoria?---Yes.
PN3759
And what about with respect to the staff that you say for between level 3A and 3B and your area managers, those staff?---Who work in our office? They are all employed by individual contracts with the company.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3760
And was it your intention that this clause here would cover those people?---No.
PN3761
Right. What is your intention with respect to subclause (b) and the people that would fall within its scope?---It would be a mid level supervisory role higher than, if you like, the day to day function within car parks.
PN3762
And that mid level would do what? What would that person do?---It really depends on the needs of the business at any given day but it could be attending car parks to identify - we might be doing, if you like, emergency exit lighting audits, we might be doing audits on the car park cleaner that we engage, it could be delivering and retrieving pass cards to and from car parks on behalf of companies. I am just mentioning a range of roles that could be done.
PN3763
And who currently does those sorts of roles?---We have at least one person who is doing that.
PN3764
And what title do you give that person?---Gofer. I can't really recall his specific title. He works within our operations department.
PN3765
And does he supervise or train car park attendants?---From time to time, but it is more about - on a number of occasions we may have a situation where, for whatever reason, we get a late call from people to say that they can't attend work or they are running late or whatever, the car has broken down and this particular person, for example, could go an open a car park in readiness for that person to arrive.
PN3766
So it is conceivable, therefore, that this person could do the functions outlined in your operational levels 2 and 3 - 2A, 2B, 3A, 3B?---It is quite possible, yes.
PN3767
Am I therefore correct in the assumption that clause 4(b) is intended not only to cover management employees but other types of employees as well?---No. It is specific to the car park operational people.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3768
I will rephrase the question because I didn't understand the answer. Is it your intention that subclause B will exclude persons and management type positions from the scope of the award. That is, in other words, the award won't cover them. Is that your intention?---The intention clearly is if we engage someone, for example, on a salary, then the terms and conditions of that engagement would apply, not necessarily the conditions of the award.
PN3769
What if the salary over a 12 month period, when compared against the entitlements under the award for the same 12 month period, was inferior to the terms of the award?---The intention is not to engage people to be inferior to what they could earn under the award.
PN3770
I am not suggesting it is your intention. I am saying what would happen if?---I think the simple answer is that all our employees on contract are reviewed annually in terms of their level of remuneration.
PN3771
But you are looking at covering operational people by subclause B, is that right?---That's right and we fully recognise the variation of at least 40 per cent and what real earnings could apply for the roles they perform.
PN3772
Would any of those people be casual employees?---Sorry, say that again.
PN3773
Would any of those people who you envisage being covered by subclause (b) be casual employees?---No.
PN3774
Part-time employees?---No.
PN3775
Full-time employees?---Yes.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3776
If I can now take you to clause 10. Sorry, there was one other question with respect to the incidence clause and that is - and please answer no if you are not aware, but are you aware of the impact of a clause like that on a person's right to take an unfair dismissal application? If the answer is no, just say no?---Can you repeat the question?
PN3777
Are you aware of the impact of a clause like that on the ability of that person to take an unfair dismissal application to this Commission?---In terms of an outcome?
[2.25pm]
PN3778
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't know. That is not a legal question actually, Ms Frenzel?
PN3779
MS FRENZEL: Sorry?
PN3780
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, there are some decisions of the Commission that suggest that a clause like that doesn't actually remove them from the - - -
PN3781
MS FRENZEL: No, I understand that. I am just asking what his understanding of it was. And if - - -
PN3782
MR O'GRADY: And - - -
PN3783
MS FRENZEL: - - - he doesn't know, he doesn't know.
PN3784
MR O'GRADY: And furthermore, how is it relevant, your Honour?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3785
MS FRENZEL: I move on to clause 10. Now, is my understanding correct with respect to this clause in an overall sense that it is Wilson's intention that afternoon and night shift penalties not be paid to casual employees? Under this clause?---Correct.
PN3786
Okay. Is it also my - is my understanding also correct that this clause is, given that you weren't on a Monday to Saturday spread of ordinary hours, to work from Monday to Saturday? To operate - I am sorry, from Monday to Saturday?---You will have to repeat that. I am sorry.
PN3787
Okay. Is it also your intention that these shift allowances would apply from Monday to Saturday?---That is correct, because double time would apply on a Sunday or a public holiday. For hours worked on a Sunday.
PN3788
Okay. Mr Larkin, is your company respondent to awards - sorry. Do you have car parking operations in other States?---Yes, we do have, in every State.
PN3789
In every State?---In every State, yes.
PN3790
And you - well, you oversee Tasmania as well, don't you, as part of your role?---We did have some operations down there. We no longer have - well, we have a short term one. Yes.
PN3791
Okay. And have you had any experience working for Wilson's in other States, other than Victoria and Tasmania?---I have visited other States, but I haven't worked there, you know, in terms of representing the State.
PN3792
Are you aware of the penalty rates which apply with respect to shift penalties in other States for car parking attendants employed by Wilson's?---No, not as a rule.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3793
And, just to clear up one issue, is it your company's intention that afternoon and night shift allowances, as you describe them, are only paid between the hours of 7.30 pm and 6 am?---That is correct. Except for a Sunday.
PN3794
No, I am talking about the shift penalties. I am not talking about weekend penalties. If you can now turn to clause 11, Overtime. I think you gave evidence yesterday that you currently pay casual employees overtime. Is that correct?---My evidence was if a casual happens to work overtime we will pay them overtime, because of the agreement we settled with the union a number of months ago.
PN3795
And you would agree, would you not, that this clause seeks to ensure the casual employees are not entitled to overtime?---Correct.
PN3796
How exactly then - I will withdraw that. With respect to 11(a), where you say that:
PN3797
All time worked at the request of the employer by full-time and part-time employees outside the ordinary hours of work fixed in accordance with the roster under clause 9...
PN3798
We have already been to clause 9 at length. Would it be your company's intention that work outside the ordinary hours, say, exceeding eight on one day, for argument's sake, would be paid at overtime rates?---They say at 7.6 they would be paid overtime. In that engagement, yes.
PN3799
On a daily basis?---On the day that the incur the work. We would pay the overtime on the - for the day they had worked beyond the 7.6 hours.
PN3800
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is that your current practice?---Yes, sir. For eight hours.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3801
MS FRENZEL: And, with respect to shift workers, the same would apply, would it not?---Define shift worker, please.
PN3802
Well, if they worked in excess of eight hours on a shift, and there was no agreement for them to work up to 10 hours, would they be paid overtime on a daily basis?---The distinction is those on a rotating roster, I think, compared to those who are not on a rotating roster who work shift work. But anyone who works - a shift worker who works beyond 7.6 hours in a day will be paid overtime, for time worked beyond 7.6 hours in that day.
PN3803
If I can now take you to clause 13 - firstly, still on the same page. You would agree, would you not, that there are currently penalties contained within the award for Saturday work?---After 1 pm.
PN3804
Could I put this to you, and tell me please if you don't agree or you don't know. That Saturday morning work attracts time and a quarter, and then double time after 1 o'clock?
PN3805
MR O'GRADY: Perhaps if that is going to be put, the basis on which that is being put could be - - -
PN3806
MS FRENZEL: Well I am - he has got the award there. I will take him to the award clause.
PN3807
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No. Well, basically, that is - you are saying that is what goes on at the present time?
PN3808
MS FRENZEL: Yes.
PN3809
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: In Wilson Car Parking, or generally?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3810
MS FRENZEL: In Wilson Car Parking.
PN3811
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is that right?---That is my understanding.
PN3812
MS FRENZEL: And that shift workers are paid time and a half on Saturdays?---If they are part of a three week rotating roster, where they work two out of three weekends, and they get time and a half for the whole weekend, for their eight hours - - -
PN3813
No. I am asking - I am asking for Saturdays. I am asking for Saturdays only, at this point. A rotating shift worker would be paid time and a half for Saturdays?---Correct.
PN3814
And a shift - a rotating shift - well, a shift worker - just bear with me while I just clear this up. Now, if I can take you to clause 13 of the current award, on the bottom of page 6 it addresses Saturday and Sunday work. The clause says shift workers. It doesn't say rotating shift workers:
PN3815
Shift workers performing such work shall be paid at the rate of time and a half. Such rates shall be in substitution for, and not cumulative upon shift allowances prescribed in clause 10 of this award.
PN3816
?---Mm.
PN3817
Do you have any shift workers, other than what you describe as being rotating shift workers?---No.
PN3818
And do you work your rotating shift workers over an average number of hours per week or straight 38 hours per week?---They work to an average of - well, as a minimum, 120 hours every three weeks.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3819
So, can you give the Commission an example of how a roster would operate over a three week period?---It is seven days on, two days off, seven days on, four days off.
PN3820
And what are the hours of work per day?---Eight.
PN3821
So that could work - - -?---Not - sorry. Eight, yes.
PN3822
So they are working - let me get this right. Seven days straight at eight hours?---Mm.
PN3823
And then they are working - then they have days off. How many days off again?---They have got to work 15. They work 15 in three weeks so it is - sorry. It is - there would be seven on, two off, spare day, seven on, four off.
PN3824
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What is a spare day?---Because it is usually an overlap, the person - the shift involves morning or evening work. For example, 6 to 2, 2 to 10. When they come back on their - there is always someone working. It is a three man - or a three person rotation. When you come back on there will be invariably someone finishing their - a shift pattern on a morning or an evening. So it is - it is a spare person. So in a lot of cases they are surplus to requirements at a particular site, but not necessarily so. But they are utilised, and paid.
PN3825
MS FRENZEL: So, Mr Larkin, can you point me to the provision in the award which allows for this roster?
PN3826
MR O'GRADY: How is that relevant, your Honour? How is that relevant?
PN3827
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't know but, how do you say it is relevant, Ms Frenzel?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3828
MS FRENZEL: I am sorry?
PN3829
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: How is that relevant?
PN3830
MS FRENZEL: Well, we are not going to issues of compliance, if that is what my friend thinks. I just want Mr Larkin - - -
PN3831
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You are going to tell me there is no provision of that nature in the award, aren't you?
PN3832
MS FRENZEL: That is right.
PN3833
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, you can put that to the witness if you like, but I don't know how it is going to be relevant, at the end of the day, but - - -
PN3834
MS FRENZEL: Mr Larkin, can I put it to you there is no provision for that sort of rostering arrangement in the award at the moment?---Well, I would say under clause F part (b):
PN3835
For the purpose of this clause, seven day shift workers shall mean an employee works on a roster which involves ordinary working time on any day of the week, including Saturdays and Sundays.
PN3836
I can't see how you can run a roster, working on Saturdays and Sundays, if you don't run it the way I have - in the fashion I have just suggested.
PN3837
No. I am talking about the averaging over three weeks, Mr Larkin?---The averaging? Again, if you look at what it says in F(b), the practical application of F(b) - - -
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3838
You are talking about the annual leave clause, aren't you? Can you point me to the clause?---Sorry. My - okay. I am looking at clause F part (b) - - -
PN3839
On page?---Sorry. 12.
PN3840
That deals with seven day shift workers, does it?---That is exactly right.
PN3841
And - - -?---So it identifies the fact that there are seven day shift workers. That is very simple. You run a roster that involves seven day shift workers, you are going to - you cannot but have a situation where, on a - unless you want to put split days off, which could narrow the - narrow that margin a bit, where you are going to have some form of averaging.
PN3842
Can I put it to you that a seven day shift worker, for example, would be somebody who is regularly rostered to work from Wednesday to Sunday each week, and they could work an afternoon shift or a night shift or a day shift, but they would still be a seven day shift worker?---Maybe so. But it is - it is very hard, and I wouldn't agree to necessarily engage people and ask them to work every weekend of their working life.
PN3843
I didn't say every weekend. I said regularly rostered?---Well, to be regularly rostered would mean, if they were working Wednesday to Sundays, for - Wednesday to Sundays. Is that right? Yes. That - how could you break that pattern?
PN3844
Mr Larkin, subclause F that you are referring to, which is the annual leave clause of the award, at subclause (b) says this:
PN3845
For the purposes of this clause ...
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3846
It defines a seven day shift worker:
PN3847
Seven day shift worker shall mean an employee who works a roster which involves working ordinary working time on any day of the week, including Saturdays, Sundays, and public holidays.
PN3848
?---Mm.
PN3849
Can I put it to you that clause does not mention the requirement to work every weekend?
PN3850
MR O'GRADY: What the clause mentions and doesn't mention, is apart from the words themselves, your Honour. Once again, in my submission, whether Mr Larkin's interpretation is correct or incorrect is immaterial, with respect.
PN3851
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Your point is, Ms Frenzel, as I understand it, there is no provision in the award, and Mr Larkin disagrees with you on that. There is not much point in having a dispute with him about that here and now. I mean, you can argue that with Mr O'Grady when it comes to submissions.
PN3852
MS FRENZEL: Very well, your Honour. But you do agree there was a current - there are current penalties for Saturday work for both day workers and shift workers?---Yes.
PN3853
We do agree about that, don't we?---Yes.
PN3854
And the intention of your application is to remove those penalty rates? For Saturdays?---Until 7.30. Yes. We want the spread of hours for ordinary hours to include Saturday work.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3855
And you want no shift penalty - sorry. I withdraw that:
PN3856
No Saturday penalties to be paid at all for work up to 7.30 pm.
PN3857
?---Should be clear. I have got 7.30 for Saturday. That is right.
PN3858
Now, you mightn't be able to answer this question, Mr Larkin, but I will give it a shot anyway. How many employees do you have that work the time and a quarter on the Saturday and then attract double time after 1 pm?---I am sure there are a few.
PN3859
How many shift workers do you have working on a Saturday who currently attract time and a half?---There are quite a few.
PN3860
Including the ones in the three week rotating roster?---Yes. Those on rotating rosters get paid time and a half. Those that don't get paid a rotating roster get paid according to the award.
PN3861
All right. That is a point of debate, but in any event I will move on from that. Just so long as we are clear that that is the intention?---Yes.
PN3862
And we agree also, do we not, that the - that shift workers working on Sundays at the moment attract time and a half?---Rotating shift workers, yes.
PN3863
That was an issue about that, as well. And what do you pay workers working double time on Sundays. Sorry. Overtime on Sundays?---They get time and a half for the first - well, it is exactly as in the terms of the current award. I think it is time and a half for the first two, and then double time thereafter. Whatever the award says, they are getting paid.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3864
Very well. And once again, the penalty payments for Sundays and public holidays, it is your intention they don't apply to casual employees, is it not? I direct you to subclause (e) of clause 13 of the employer's application?---That is correct.
PN3865
Do you currently pay weekend penalties to your casual employees?---We do.
PN3866
Do you have any - are they - these casuals, are they day workers or shift workers? Or both?---Well, neither. They are a casual. They work - they are not classified as anything else but a casual.
PN3867
So if a casual works an afternoon shift, you still just call them a casual?---In terms of the definition of their - yes.
PN3868
And how many casuals would you have rostered to work Sundays and public holidays?---It varies. I really don't have a definitive answer for you on that.
PN3869
Okay. And with respect to the Saturday penalties that are currently in the award, which we have already been through, do you currently pay those penalties according to the award to casual employees?---We pay casuals what they are entitled to under the award.
PN3870
Now, with respect to your clause 14 rest breaks, could I ask you why the rest periods, or rest intervals as they are described in subclause (a), only apply from Monday to Saturday and don't include Sundays and public holidays?---That - it was a collective decision and that is what has been put into our proposal.
PN3871
A collective decision by whom?---The people within the Victorian parking industry.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3872
Can I put it to you that people working Sundays at the moment get rest breaks?
PN3873
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Under the award, you mean?
PN3874
MS FRENZEL: Yes, that is right. It is an award provision they get rest breaks.
PN3875
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, yes?---Most people, if not all people get a rest break anyway, depending on the movements within the car park.
PN3876
MS FRENZEL: So what - what led to the collective decision to exclude Sundays from this provision?---Not all parties have car parks that operate on a Sunday. It was a question of relevance, I think.
PN3877
But THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: They are not going to be harmed, are they, by a clause that provides for rest periods on Sunday? His answer is "no", Ms Frenzel. I don't know whether you - - -
PN3878
MS FRENZEL: I didn't hear it?---No, sorry.
PN3879
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No.
PN3880
MS FRENZEL: Thank you, your Honour. Now, Mr Larkin, as an employer, could I ask you this? Do you think - do you believe that Wilson's is the largest employer of car parking attendants in this State?---We would be one of the largest.
PN3881
How, as an employer, do you propose to determine when the rest breaks are going to occur in accordance with subclause (a)?---As an employer we know traditionally what happens in terms of the operation of a car park, and we would nominate the most appropriate time to take a rest break.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3882
And do you - do you do that currently? Do you nominate times for rest breaks currently?---Most of our employees have not - or, all of our employees know when it is the most appropriate time to take a break, and do so.
PN3883
But is that the employee determining that, or the employer?---It is an understanding between the employer and the employee when the most appropriate time is to take it. If they can't take it at that, if you like, nominated time, then it is understood they will take it when it is appropriate.
PN3884
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So can an employee take it at their discretion?---It can - yes. That can be said.
PN3885
MS FRENZEL: And is it your intention to dispense, if you like, with that discretion? By your proposed clause 14?---Not - that is not the intention. No.
PN3886
What is the intention?---It is - the intention is that, at the end of the day we have the right, if there is a dispute, to nominate when an appropriate rest break will be taken.
PN3887
If I can now turn to the vexatious issue of meal breaks. Now, it is my understanding of this clause - no. I will withdraw that. Meal breaks - the million dollar question with this provision, Mr Larkin, is whether or not the employee can leave the site for a meal break?---Yes, they can.
PN3888
Can they do that all the time? In other words, is there an unfettered right of the employer to say my meal break is, for argument's sake, between 12 and 12.30, and I am going to go to the bank, and then I am going to go and buy a sandwich, and then I will come back to work?---The time of the break isn't necessarily a right. But as long as it is given within five hours of commencement of the shift - - -
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3889
No. I am asking about the employee leaving the site. I am not asking about the timing. The timing could be anything. I am asking about whether or not an employee can leave a Wilson's car park site for their meal break?---Yes.
PN3890
All the time?---I can - I can't see why there would be a reason not to.
PN3891
What about all those single person sites that you have, that you described earlier? What about with respect to those car parks?---That is where, in just about every case, they are provided with lunch relief. Someone comes and relieves them while they go away. Or, as is mostly the case, they sit there together and chat.
PN3892
So therefore, with respect to - no. I will withdraw that. The union has put a proposition forward that in shorthand terms says this. That if an employee can leave the work site - I withdraw that, too. The union has put a proposition forward in two parts. The first part is contained in Exhibit F4, which essentially says that if an employee can't have a meal break of half an hour, meal in half an hour, they should be paid overtime until such time as that break can be taken. What is your response to that?---We understand and respect that a meal break has to be provided within five hours of the commencement of their engagement. And we do our very best to ensure that that relief is provided.
PN3893
No, but what is your response to the union's claim?---That they should be paid double time if they can't take it?
PN3894
They should be paid overtime, which would be time and a half, and possibly double time, if they can't take a meal break? Until such time as the break is taken?---I have no comment. I have no comment on that. I would have to - I just don't have any comment on that.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3895
All right. Let me put proposition B to you. Proposition B is found in the security award, and what that says is if the employee can't leave the site to have a meal break, then the time is counted as time worked. What is your response to that idea? So they can eat their sandwich, but they can't go to the bank. And if they didn't bring their sandwich, then they are going to go hungry until they go home, or they can buy a sandwich?---I think it is about what is fair.
PN3896
No. What is your response to the notion of paid meal breaks for persons who can't leave your sites?---I don't really have a problem with it, if that is what you are asking. It is a personal issue, or - - -
PN3897
No, it is not personal. I am just asking you what your response to our proposition is? I hardly ever leave my work site for lunch anyway. Now, maybe I should claim that, your Honour.
PN3898
MR O'GRADY: Double time, your Honour.
PN3899
MS FRENZEL: Now, with respect to subclause (a), in what circumstances do you see an employee agreeing to waive their meal break altogether?---In some cases people need to be away at a certain time. To provide the half hour meal break in this case would bring them to approximately eight and a half hours engagement. And in some cases, it has been put to us that, you know, I prefer not to have the break so I can leave at a certain time. And the car park environment allows them to effectively have a break at any time during the day.
PN3900
So why doesn't the clause say that, Mr Larkin?---It is with a - well, it does, in terms. With the agreement of the employer and employee.
PN3901
And why doesn't it say at the request of the employee?---It has to be in the - an agreement is between two people.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3902
Well why doesn't it say this then? At the request of the employee and with the agreement of the employer?---If that helps you understand our intention, then I am sure we could look at that and have that amended.
PN3903
Might I take you to clause 17, then we will deal with it subclause by subclause. Subclause (a). Are you aware of what the current minimum engagement is in the award?---For who?
PN3904
For full-time employees?---40 hours a week.
PN3905
The minimum engagement per day, Mr Larkin?---Would be eight.
PN3906
Can I put it to you that it is actually four. Four hours. At clause 17(c)?---Let me - I am happy to be - - -
PN3907
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't know that Mr - - -
PN3908
MS FRENZEL: But anyway, I am just - I thought - - -
PN3909
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't know that Mr Larkin fully understood the question.
PN3910
MS FRENZEL: No, but all I am - okay. Do you understand what a minimum engagement is?---In any given day, that you must work a minimum amount of hours.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3911
Okay. Could I ask you why Wilson's are seeking - Wilson's and the other employers, but you are a Wilson's manager. Why Wilson's are seeking to reduce the minimum engagement from four hours to three, for full-timers and part-timers? I am sorry, for full-timers?---Why we are seeking to reduce it from four to three?
[2.55pm]
PN3912
Mm, mm?---Because in general terms, when someone is called in and it is invariably for overtime and may be not required, we have had situations where you are paying people for four hours a day when they are actually not required. We don't engage full-time staff to work a four hour day, for example.
PN3913
You don't?---No.
PN3914
Your full-time staff are engaged for what?---Mostly for eight hours a day.
PN3915
I see. Four hours a day. So therefore, can I put it to you, given your operational needs, that that clause could be amended to say there should be a three hour minimum start for overtime but leave the minimum start at 7.6 hours for full-timers otherwise on ordinary hours, given your - - -
PN3916
MR O'GRADY: Your Honour - - -
PN3917
MS FRENZEL: - - - operational requirements?---I don't quite follow your question.
PN3918
MR O'GRADY: I have no difficulty with Ms Frenzel asking this witness about what he understands the impact of some of these clauses will be, but to ask him to assent to amendments being made on the run, in my submission, is a bit unfair to the witness. He is here, of course, not as a spokesman for the VPIA, or indeed as a person in a capacity to consent to variations of this application on behalf of Wilsons, he is here to give evidence from the perspective of an employer with respect to these two applications.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3919
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, he has said that basically if Ms Frenzel wished to raised those questions with his representatives, that can perhaps be worked out. He is not giving any assent to any changes himself. He is saying that some of them don't sound too bad to him.
PN3920
MR O'GRADY: And to the extent to which he made a comment along those lines with respect to meal breaks.
PN3921
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But the point I am making, he is not speaking on behalf of the industry, he is expressing personal views.
PN3922
MR O'GRADY: Yes.
PN3923
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And he is saying, well, Ms Frenzel can talk to you about that. He finds no problem with it, so - - -
PN3924
MR O'GRADY: I am happy - if that is the basis on which the material is being received, I have got no objection.
PN3925
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, that is how I am hearing it.
PN3926
MR O'GRADY: Yes, your Honour.
PN3927
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And I am sure Ms Frenzel - - -
PN3928
MS FRENZEL: Yes, that is right.
PN3929
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: - - - realises he can't speak for the whole industry, he is - sorry - Mr?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3930
MS FRENZEL: Larkin.
PN3931
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Larkin from Wilson Car Park.
PN3932
MS FRENZEL: So, am I correct in - before I leave the point, am I correct in my understanding that with respect to Wilsons at least, the issue of the minimum start arises with respect to engagement for overtime?---The issue of - sorry?
PN3933
The minimum engagement of four hours?---Yes.
PN3934
Your concerns are with respect to when you call somebody and for overtime you have got to pay them four hours?---Yes. I call it calling - minimum calling.
PN3935
Okay?---That is how I understand it.
PN3936
Now, subclause (b) appears to be fairly self-explanatory. Subclause (c), would you agree that a casual employee - I think you will agree, because you have already agreed to it - that a casual employee who works beyond 6 pm Monday to Friday or beyond 1 pm on a Saturday is entitled to overtime under the current award?---That is my understanding.
PN3937
Sorry?---I think that is - yes, I think - - -
PN3938
Okay. And that overtime was obviously time and a half for the first two hours, double time thereafter, is it not?---That would be my understanding.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3939
Okay. What is your understanding of the effect of the extension of the spread of hours for casuals, and we will deal with subclause (1) first - with respect to what you are going to pay them if you were successful with this application? What is your understanding of the effect of subclause (1) with respect to payment of people?
PN3940
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Look, I am not saying you shouldn't ask the question, I just don't understand how it is going to assist me what his understanding of it might be.
PN3941
MS FRENZEL: Okay. What is the effect then, as opposed to what is your understanding?
PN3942
MR O'GRADY: Your Honour. It is the same question, with respect, under a different guise, and it has got the same vice as the previous question. What this witness understands the award requires is, with respect, irrelevant. It is going to be a matter for submission between myself and Ms Frenzel to your Honour, in due course.
PN3943
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I just don't understand, Ms Frenzel, what - why you are asking the question. It might have some relevance, but I can't see it.
PN3944
MS FRENZEL: I will ask in a different way then. What is your company's intention with respect to the payment of casuals between 6 pm and 7.30 pm if your application was successful? What is your company's intention?
PN3945
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: 6 am and 7.30 pm?
PN3946
MS FRENZEL: 6 pm.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN3947
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: 6 pm and 7 am?
PN3948
MS FRENZEL: No.
PN3949
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: 7.30 am.
PN3950
MS FRENZEL: 6 pm and 7.30 pm.
PN3951
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am sorry, yes?---They would receive 10 per cent on top of the base hourly rate.
PN3952
MS FRENZEL: And you have agreed already that they will receive time and a half for that time?---Sorry, you are talking about - which day of the week are you talking about?
PN3953
Monday to Friday?
PN3954
MR O'GRADY: Well, this is - your Honour, the evidence on this - perhaps this might be some better said in the absence of the witness because I don't want to be - - -
PN3955
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN3956
MR O'GRADY: - - - in any way - - -
PN3957
PN3958
MR O'GRADY: The witness's evidence with respect to what casuals receive - - -
PN3959
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Excuse me. Leave the door open.
PN3960
MR O'GRADY: Mr Larkin is down the other end. He can't hear what I am saying, your Honour. Mr Larkin has given evidence that there was a dispute about what casuals should receive and that there was a settlement of that matter and accordingly casuals are receiving overtime rates where they work overtime and he has given evidence about that. As I understand it, Ms Frenzel is putting propositions to him based upon what the award requires and what I am putting to your Honour is that those are two distinct things. Casuals might be being paid certain rates at the moment by Wilsons.
PN3961
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, well, that is his evidence.
PN3962
MR O'GRADY: Yes. That doesn't involve an acceptance that the current award position requires that to happen and indeed when we put submissions to your Honour in due course about what are the cost implications of some of these variations, we will obviously be putting submissions based upon what we say is the correct construction of the current award based upon what the provisions in the current aware require. And in my submission, the last question asked by Ms Frenzel was put on, if you like, a confusion of - and I don't mean this with any disrespect to Ms Frenzel, but it confused the issue of whether or not these amounts were being paid pursuant to some arrangement that Wilsons had entered into, and what the award actually required to be paid.
PN3963
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I thought Ms Frenzel was suggesting that it is what the award requires now - - -
PN3964
MR O'GRADY: Yes.
PN3965
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: - - - and they are paying that with the award now, and by seeking this variation is seeking to reduce the current entitlement in the award.
PN3966
MR O'GRADY: I understood that what Ms Frenzel was suggesting was that the witness had accepted that the award required - - -
PN3967
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Currently you mean?
PN3968
MR O'GRADY: Yes.
PN3969
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN3970
MR O'GRADY: The current award provision required casuals to receive an additional penalty that would, if you like, be the 10 per cent in subclause 17(c)(1) would be tacked on to.
PN3971
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I missed that. Sorry - - -
PN3972
MS FRENZEL: So did I.
PN3973
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I didn't understanding her to say - - -
PN3974
MR O'GRADY: Well, I might have misunderstood the question and if so, I apologise, your Honour.
PN3975
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Perhaps Ms Frenzel could clarify the situation.
PN3976
MS FRENZEL: Your Honour - I wish I would have thought of that - the question was this - no, I will put it in these terms. Mr Larkin has already said that time worked by casuals beyond 6 pm is part of the overtime rates.
PN3977
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN3978
MS FRENZEL: And we clarified it was time and a half first two hours, - - -
PN3979
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN3980
MS FRENZEL: - - - double time thereafter. I then took him to the proposed subclause (c)(1) which extends the spread to 7.30 pm.
PN3981
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, and you asked him what he would pay for 6 to 7.30 - - -
PN3982
MS FRENZEL: And he said 10 per cent.
PN3983
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is right. He was talking about this award rate though. He was talking about what this provision here would required him to pay.
PN3984
MS FRENZEL: That is right. And I was just about to put to him that it was a reduction of some 40 per cent for an hour and a half.
PN3985
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, do you need to go that far. I mean, they can work that out themselves. He said that they pay time and a half, and now he is saying that under the award he is going to pay 10 per cent.
PN3986
MS FRENZEL: Well, I am happy to leave it there.
PN3987
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But you can put it to him. It is - - -
PN3988
MR O'GRADY: This perhaps highlights the problem, your Honour. What casuals are currently being paid by Wilsons may not be what the award actually requires them to be paid. They may be paying - being paid more than what they are entitled to be paid under the award by virtue of this arrangement that has been entered into by Wilsons with the unions.
PN3989
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will have to go back and check the transcript because I haven't made a note of it, but I thought I understood Mr Larkin to say that he was paying that because he understood that is what the award currently expects - requires him to pay.
PN3990
MR O'GRADY: Well, as I understand his evidence, particularly his evidence yesterday was along the lines of there was a dispute about what the requirement was but an agreement was entered into with the union and as a result of which casuals were receiving these extra moneys.
PN3991
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: He mentioned that today as well, but he mentioned also today that under the agreement he had with the union they were paying time and a half, but I understood that that agreement was reached as a result of a dispute about the application of the award.
PN3992
MR O'GRADY: It was. But what I am highlighting, your Honour, is that we don't accept - notwithstanding the fact that Wilsons are prepared to pay those moneys pursuant to that agreement, we don't say - we don't accept that the award requires that to be paid, and that flows from the clear language of the award, we would say, as it currently exists. But that is a matter for submissions.
PN3993
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I mean, that is a matter of submissions. But I mean, why do you have to go any further. It is - - -
PN3994
MS FRENZEL: Well, given our exchange now, your Honour, I don't have to go any further.
PN3995
PN3996
MS FRENZEL: Now, Mr Larkin, with respect to employees working day shift, let us use that expression, you would agree, would you not, that there was a 10 per cent casual loading on that work?---Current.
PN3997
Mm, mm?---Yes.
PN3998
You would agree, would you not, that there was a 20 per cent loading for afternoon shift, and be careful not to use the times because there is a conflict between the employers and the union with respect to the spread of hours, so I a just referring to it loosely as afternoon shift?---Yes.
PN3999
And you would agree, would you not, there is a 35 per cent penalty for casuals working for what we describe as night shift?---Yes.
PN4000
And is my understanding of subclause (d) correct, Mr Larkin, that it is the intent - that it is your company's intent to reduce the minimum engagement for casual employees from three hours, Monday to Saturday to two hours?---That is correct.
PN4001
And is my understanding also correct with respect to this clause that it is those three sets of penalties, the 10 per cent, the 20 per cent and the 35 per cent which would apply Monday to Sunday and including public holidays, and that is found at 17, subclause (e)?---That is correct.
PN4002
Now, if I can turn to part-time employment. What is your company's intention with respect to the engagement of part-time employees, and I will explain what I mean? Do you intend to roster them for a constant number of hours per week?---Not necessarily.
PN4003
Do you intend to provide rosters on say a weekly, fortnightly, three weekly or four weekly basis to your part-time employer?---Yes, and with adequate notice of what our roster intentions are. As a minimum they would be given seven days' notice of any roster change.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4004
What is your position - the company's position about work done outside the roster period? In other words, if they are required to stay back, for example?---If the roster - my understanding is that if the roster was for a six hour day and we asked them to stay back for another two, that that would form part of overtime.
PN4005
Is it your expectation - just bear with me for a moment. I am sorry. Your expectation that the hours per week would be agreed upon between the employer and the employee?---In advance?
PN4006
Yes?---In terms of providing a roster?
PN4007
Yes?---Yes.
PN4008
Is it your expectation - when I say your, I mean your company's - - - ?---Yes.
PN4009
- - - expectation that they would have reasonably predictable hours of work?---Reasonably predictable, yes. I would agree with that.
PN4010
May I ask you for your attitude to a clause like this, and I will take you through it very slowly. Firstly:
PN4011
An employee may employ a regular part-time employee in the classification in this award.
PN4012
I think that is consistent with your company's intentions?---Is this something I can read as you - - -
PN4013
It is LHMU4?---Yes, okay. Where is that?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4014
Clause 11.4 on page 3?---I have read it and I would agree with how that would be applied as is written.
PN4015
Okay. Now can we move on to subclause (g) in the employer's application?
PN4016
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Subclause (g) what?
PN4017
MS FRENZEL: (g). It is just over the page in the part-time provisions. It is under clause 17, your Honour.
PN4018
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, right.
PN4019
MS FRENZEL: Now, I think this issue comes back to the issue with the discussions that we had with respect to the classification structure, but what is your intentions with respect to the first sentence in subclause (g) which reads:
PN4020
An employee shall be allotted the classification by the employer upon being engaged and shall not be varied unless a week's notice of variation has been given by the employer.
PN4021
Is it your intention to downgrade employees?---The only reason people would be downgraded would be for disciplinary purposes, but with adequate notice and counselling prior to that.
PN4022
So, they have - okay. So what is your company's intention with respect to that provision - that proposed provision?---If, for example, someone is engaged on level 3A and we ask them to perform a function that is within level 1, they would still be paid 3A. In other words, the intention is to be able to work down.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4023
I don't have an issue with that.
PN4024
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There is not much point in having any issue with Mr Larkin at this stage about what he might do.
PN4025
MS FRENZEL: I am asking, Mr Larkin, from your company's perspective then, what is the necessity for that provision which clearly - at least to me anyway, indicates that employers can vary classifications?---It really identifies that they are working in terms of higher duties. We would, for example, they may relieve as a 3A, for example, but we would give them a week's notice of that intention and then advise them of the additional pay that would be paid to them because of that higher duty. We would also give them notice that at the completion of that higher duty that we give them a week's notice to advise them they will be returning to their former level of engagement.
PN4026
So you are talking about mixed functions?---From time to time people are offered the opportunity to work higher duties as it forms part of their probation for promotion.
PN4027
Okay. So just quickly going to the issue of mixed functions, can you explain to the Commission then why the employers are seeking to delete clause 31 mixed functions from the award? My pages aren't numbered but if you follow the clause numbers sequentially, you will find that on the employer's application the mixed functions clause is proposed to be deleted?---It is clause 31, is it?
PN4028
That is right?---We would see quite simply that they would be paid by the hour for the functions they worked in that engagement and if it included, for example, two periods - within an eight hour engagement, for example, in the rare circumstance that they would do a four hour shift at a higher duty, our intention is to paying for the four hours, not the whole shift.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4029
I see. So - - -?---It just refers to hours worked - actually worked in that engagement rather than whole shift.
PN4030
And what is the practice that Wilsons currently engage in with respect to mixed functions?---We don't really apply, if you like, mixed functions that often.
PN4031
Can I put it to you though that subclause (g) doesn't mention anything about - yes it does. I am sorry. I will withdraw that. Why is there an exclusion for split shifts?---I can't really answer.
PN4032
Now, can you give us an example of what sort of higher functions you are talking about given that the classification definitions apart from the jockey parking example, are the same right throughout the classification structure?---It would invariably involve some form of training and/or supervision that is not normally conducted by that person at their existing level.
PN4033
So just to be - I am probably labouring the point, but just to be really clear, it is not Wilsons' intention to attempt to downgrade people's base classifications?---The intention is quite clear. They will be given - they will have a level that is agreed and the only time we would vary that upward is if they were - with agreement that they undertook higher duties. The return to their former level is not seen as downgrading it. It is just returning to their agreed existing. The only time they possibly would be downgraded, for example, from a level 3 would be for some form of discipline reaction as a result of some actions taken by an employee following appropriate counselling.
PN4034
If I can take you now to subclause (h), and you specify here that there is a proposal that the employee maintain a full current Australian driver's licence to drive manual vehicles?---Mm, mm.
PN4035
Now, is this a current requirement that your company has?---Yes, it is.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4036
And when did that current requirement come into effect?---It has been in for a long time, as far as I know.
PN4037
And if you were to implement your - the proposed new classification structure, exactly how many level 2A jobs would you have in your car parks at the moment?---I really can't answer that with any surety. A lot.
PN4038
And where you say the company, in the event that the licence is lost of suspended, you say:
PN4039
The company will meet with the affected employee to consider alternatives such as taking periods of accrued leave -
PN4040
am I right in assuming that that is the only alternative that the company would consider, given the last sentence of that clause?---Not necessarily. If we can identify, for example, a cashiering role that absolutely will not involve the necessity to move a vehicle, we would do our best to accommodate, remembering that the person who would be in that job would have to be consulted. We would explore all avenues to continue meaningful employment until such time those avenues are exhausted. If we exhaust the avenues, including taking periods of leave if they were suspended - their licence was to be suspended, if we were to exhaust all avenues including any accrual of leave taken, then we wouldn't have the ability to continue their engagement.
PN4041
Would that be on the basis that you wouldn't have a job for the employee?---On the basis that no vacancy existed within our portfolio to accommodate them, yes.
PN4042
And with respect to subclause (r), it basically deals with the same issue about notification, subclause (j), what would you define as being a reasonable commuting distance? From your experience at Wilsons?---I don't know how to clearly answer that question. Reasonable commuting distance means that they can get to and from their place of work without any unnecessary hardship.
[3.25pm]
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4043
I might just ask my friend one thing about clause 19 - - -
PN4044
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right.
PN4045
MS FRENZEL: - - - it might expedite matters.
PN4046
MR O'GRADY: Excuse me, your Honour. Your Honour, my friend is inquiring whether the applications with respect to clause 19 and clause 21 are being maintained in the light of the simplified award that we have been provided with. Unfortunately, your Honour, I am in the invidious position of not having clear instructions on that issue. They have been sought but, as I think I expressed yesterday, I am acting for the - - -
PN4047
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN4048
MR O'GRADY: A number of entities and I need instructions before I can formally abandon the point. Can I perhaps suggest, your Honour, that the matter need not be pursued by my friend at this stage, if it was to eventuate in due course that the respondents did wish to pursue the variation, in the same terms as is currently set out in clause 19 and clause 21, then perhaps arrangements could be made if it was felt that it was still necessary for my friend to cross-examine Mr Larkin on those issues.
PN4049
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, that I think is a sensible way to go but I was going to ask you in fact after Mr Larkin had finished giving his evidence, what the situation was with the amended - - -
PN4050
MR O'GRADY: Yes. And the situation, your Honour, is we are seeking to get instructions about those matters. With my instructor being here helping me during the course of the hearing dates and with the need to have multiple managers of these car parking entities consulted, I haven't got those instructions at this stage and I can't do anything about that, your Honour.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4051
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, all right, okay.
PN4052
MS FRENZEL: We have got no objection - - -
PN4053
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are you content, Ms Frenzel, to leave those clauses at the moment subject to your right to recall Mr Larkin if necessary in due course?
PN4054
MS FRENZEL: Yes, that is fine, your Honour.
PN4055
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right.
PN4056
MS FRENZEL: Now, Mr Larkin, if I can take you to clause 33, payment of wages, is our understanding correct that the Wilsons and the other employers, but specifically Wilsons, given that you are giving evidence, wish to have latitude of paying wages no later than Friday where under the current award it is no later than Thursday?---That is correct.
PN4057
On what basis do you seek that change?---It has some benefits administratively for us.
PN4058
Can you describe those benefits please?---Not in its intricate detail but in some respects our shift patterns finish on a Friday, a lot of our people engage Monday to Friday and because of - there was - well, in our particular business, we have got a number of groups outside of parking that are also involved with our payroll packaging system and it would be advantageous for us to have Friday as the day.
PN4059
Mr Larkin, what is your current pay period, does it run Wednesday to Tuesday or Thursday to Wednesday. How does it run?---I am happy to be stood corrected but I think pay - that the pay cycle finishes on a Monday.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4060
The pay cycle finishes on a - - -?---Or a Tuesday, it is one of those two days but it is - I think from memory our people are paid on a Thursday.
PN4061
Are paid on a Thursday. And - - -?---We have had some variations of recent times.
PN4062
Well, is it fair to say that your pay cycle currently, as is common with most employers, is different to your roster cycle? If your roster Monday to Friday but you are paid, for argument's sake, Wednesday to Tuesday, your pay cycle is different to your roster cycle?---I am not qualified to answer that. I would have to - - -
PN4063
Okay. And do you pay weekly or fortnightly?---Fortnightly, in most cases.
PN4064
Do you pay weekly in any cases?---Not weekly, but monthly, in some cases.
PN4065
And they with your management staff?---Yes.
PN4066
But not your award covered staff?---Fortnightly.
PN4067
Award - - -?---Award staff are paid fortnightly.
PN4068
Thank you. So can you explain therefore where the administrative benefit arises if your pay cycle finishes before Friday about why employees should be paid on a Friday?---I really don't have anything further to add at this point on that issue.
PN4069
Can I ask you this: What would happen if - no, I will rephrase that. Do you pay by electronic funds transfer?---In just about every case, yes.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4070
Do you pay any by cheque?---There have been occasions where we have had to pay by cheque.
PN4071
Do you pay any by cash?---No.
PN4072
Okay. What would happen if an employee, if you were able to get this award variation, and an employee went to his or her ATM on Friday to get their wages and the money wasn't there?---We would note - - -
PN4073
MR O'GRADY: Well, your Honour - - -
PN4074
MS FRENZEL: What would the company's response be to a request by the employee about payment over a weekend?---When, in the rare occasions for whatever reason, a tape from a bank has failed to be processed correctly, we immediately advise those affected employees and offer emergency funds until that amount is cleared and we have done that in the past and will continue to do that into the future.
PN4075
Okay. Given that you are seeking payment be made no later than Friday, what contingency measures, if any, have you put in place for an employee ringing Wilsons on a Saturday morning saying, "I haven't got my pay"?---We would know in advance if there was a problem on the Friday. The pays are actually processed and paid on Friday as a rule - well, they are processed for example about 7 o'clock in the evening, they go through the banks and the bank - - -
PN4076
On what day?---Well, the night before the existing pay day.
PN4077
That would be Wednesday?---And if there are any problems we know about it immediately and we can rectify the situation because in some - you understand that we have an office in Perth which is running currently three hours behind time and the appropriate people are informed and we know invariably through our data base who if at all is going to be affected by any potential problem with the pay. In any event we provide relief money to those people who need it and seek it.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4078
And how would that work on a Saturday morning?---No different from how it would work on a Tuesday morning.
PN4079
Can you tell me how it would work on a Saturday morning?---Well, funds are drawn from our cash pools and given to staff.
PN4080
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But how would that work on the Saturday morning. Your administration staff don't work on Saturday morning?---We would know on Friday that we had a problem, advise the staff that for whatever reason the pay won't be going in tonight and we have a number of sites that are open on a weekend where they can attend that site and be paid cash to get them through the weekend. It has happened in the past.
PN4081
MS FRENZEL: Now, you said that the pays go in during the evening, exactly how are you aware if you are going to have a pay problem?---You are asking some specific technical details. In general terms the payroll is confirmed by the bank as processed and if it is not or if there is a problem we are advised and there is a number of staff whose number is made available to - within our group to advise us of any situation that may occur with the processing of payroll. We do have 24 hour coverage in a managerial level seven days a week.
PN4082
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Who makes up the pays? Who makes up the entitlement; the pay entitlement?---It is a transfer of information from time sheets to a rostering package; rostering and payroll package.
PN4083
How is that done, by computer, is it?---Yes.
PN4084
So, what, it all happens automatically?---The calculation does, yes, it transfers to tapes through a company called Power Force and then it is generated to the banks.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4085
Picked up by them and taken to the banks?---Yes.
PN4086
Well, what happens if they lose a tape or they don't get to the bank with the tape?---That is - they are the sort of situations where we know about it straight away, one of many - and we can rectify that situation in terms of people's payments.
PN4087
But how do you know it if the bank - I mean the bank would perhaps expect someone to turn up with a tape I suppose, would they?---There is a reconciliation process that occurs between the banks and our company to confirm that the moneys have been deposited from our funds into pay payroll and it is a reconciliation process that identifies any potential problem.
PN4088
But the reconciliation, does that just give you balances or does it give you each and every person who has been paid some money?---In my experience, for those who have been affected by not being able to be paid, we have always known virtually at that time that there is a problem. I really don't have the full technical answer for you as to how it transpires but I know it does transpire.
PN4089
All right?---We cater for our people as best - and people understand.
PN4090
All right?---It is not a common occurrence.
PN4091
MS FRENZEL: No, but you would agree, would you not, that it would be far easier thing to deal with on a business day rather than a weekend day?---The intention here is that we process on a Thursday and pay - people's wages would be in their accounts on a Friday.
PN4092
I understand what the intention is. What I am putting to you is that it is far easier - if something does go wrong, it is a far easier issue to deal with and rectify on a business day than it is a weekend day?---Oh, I have no doubt.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4093
Now, you recall this morning that we were discussing about rate increases in car parks since June this year?---Parking rates?
PN4094
Parking rates and particular car parks and I have now been able to get an up to date copy of the car parks. Can I ask you to identify that document, Mr Larkin? Now, to the best of your knowledge and understanding, is that an accurate record of the car parks that Wilsons currently have in Victoria?---Yes, it is.
PN4095
PN4096
MS FRENZEL: Thank you, your Honour.
PN4097
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: How did you describe it, sorry?
PN4098
MS FRENZEL: The title of the document is car park index in P number order.
PN4099
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right, thank you.
PN4100
MS FRENZEL: As it relates to Wilsons Parking. Now, Mr Larkin, I am not trying to be cute, I am just trying to sort of try and truncate things a little bit. How familiar are you with the parking charges for these car parks?---Reasonably familiar, I can't quote verbatim all the parking rates for these car parks, we are very reasonable.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4101
Can you point out to the Commission what you regard as being your - I think we used the types before of quiet, lesser quiet and busy car parks. If you could just point out to the Commission your busy car parks to the best of your knowledge?---The busiest?
PN4102
The busy ones?---Mainly around the retail core, Melbourne Central.
PN4103
Can you just give us the numbers concerned?---Sorry, yes, 210, 211.
PN4104
210 and 211, yes?---Depending on function activity, probably P52.
PN4105
P52, yes.?---Depending on functions, P132, P197, certainly P141, well 114, 141, 142, that is Crown Casino.
PN4106
Hang on, 114?---141, 142.
PN4107
Yes?---Depending on events, P200.
PN4108
Yes?---And you would have to put in the Royal Melbourne Hospital, P150.
PN4109
And would it be fair to say, Mr Larkin, that given that these are probably your major sites with respect to business, you would be fairly well acquainted with the operations of those sites?---Yes, I would.
PN4110
Now, can you tell me which of those sites, excuse me. Now, is it true that with Crown Casino, if we can deal with those sites first being P114, 141 and 142?---Yes.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4111
That you have an enterprise agreement with the Transport Workers Union at that site?---We do.
PN4112
And is it true also that there were failed negotiations between the LHMU and Wilsons Parking with respect to an EBA at Colonial Stadium?---I wouldn't say failed. We tendered on the basis of the award and won the agreement on the basis of the award.
PN4113
But you do recall discussions you had with me about an EB- - -?---We did have some discussions at the time, yes, I do recall that. It is a question of timing I think.
PN4114
Sorry?---It is a question of timing.
PN4115
Now, which of those major car parks - I will rephrase that. Have the parking charges at those major car parks remained constant for the last 12 months, say from November of last year to November of this year?---In just about every case, no car park has had constant rates, they go up and down depending on the market forces.
PN4116
Okay. And what is the minimum about of money someone would be charged for casual parking in any of those ones marked - those ones you have outlined, save and except for Crown Casino?---$1.75 for the first hour at Royal Women's Hospital.
PN4117
And what is the maximum per hour?---The Hospital set the rates, I am just trying to remember, I think it is $26.
PN4118
And where would the $26 be charged?---If you were there for more than I think five hours.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4119
Okay. And with respect to rate increases, which of those car parks have had rate increases? We will deal with the 12 months first and then 6 months so from November to June, to the best of your knowledge, how many of those have had rate increases?---Well, to answer your question properly you need to understand that there are a range of charges that apply depending on the conditions and the day of the week therefore early bird parking goes up and down like a yoyo, night and evening parking goes up and down like a yoyo, casual hourly rates, to the norm, have remained pretty static for the last 12 months.
PN4120
What was the lowest ebb for - well let us do the Hyatt - for casual parking at the Hyatt in the last 12 months?---What is the?
PN4121
The lowest rate that you have charged per hour at the Hyatt?---Per hour?
PN4122
On casual parking?---It would be 7, from memory.
PN4123
Do you have early bird parking at the Hyatt?---Yes, we do.
PN4124
And what is that rate?---Currently?
PN4125
Yes?---I believe it is 10.50.
PN4126
And what is the highest amount someone could be charged at the Hyatt?---On a casual hourly basis?
PN4127
On a casual hourly basis?---27 or $30.
PN4128
For how long?---Four hours, from memory.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4129
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Why do they advertise the casual rates as hourly rates if they are hourly rates?---Because we offer people the opportunity not to be charged a full hour if they only stay for say 20 minutes. They get charged a half hour rate.
PN4130
Well why do they put it in very small writing down the bottom of the sign?
PN4131
MR O'GRADY: Well, I object on the basis of relevance, your Honour.
PN4132
MS FRENZEL: Well I think it is incredibly relevant - keep going.
PN4133
MR O'GRADY: It is beyond your terms of reference, with respect.
PN4134
MS FRENZEL: I would have thought that section 110 meant that his Honour could do much what he wanted. Now, with respect to rate increases, when you increase rates, what is the lowest percentage you increase them by?---The lowest percentage?
PN4135
So is it 5 cents an hour - let us do it in cents and dollars, it is probably easier?---It is the lowest coin available, which is a 5 cent piece.
PN4136
And how often would you increase it by 5 cents an hour?---Not too often because people actually prefer not to - if they deal with small amounts of money, we would probably deal as low as probably the 10 or 20 cents, as a variation to rates.
PN4137
And how often would you do that?---It depends on the market forces.
PN4138
So is it fair to say that coming up to Christmas, for example, when parking is at a premium in Melbourne, car parking - I am not just saying Wilsons here, I am saying your competitors as well, because you would notice it, would increase their rates?---Not necessarily.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4139
MR O'GRADY: Well, your Honour, there are a couple of crevices in that question that haven't been established by any of the evidence.
PN4140
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think you had better take it a stage at a time.
PN4141
MS FRENZEL: Do Wilsons increase their parking charges, say according to the particular time of year, ie, Christmas?---We deal with seasonality but we don't necessarily put up prices at Christmas. It depends on what the market tolerances are and the capacity in various areas where amount of cars are expected. Where demand is high and capacity is low, there is a premium to be paid for parking.
PN4142
And with the sites that you have outlined as the busy site, once again excepting Crown because of the operation of the enterprise agreement, which sites there are, if you like, where the demand is high and the supply is low?---At what time of the year?
PN4143
Well let us deal with this year - - -?---You can't deal with a year, you just tell me a period of year.
PN4144
Sorry, this month?---The month of November?
PN4145
Yes?---They are all much the same.
PN4146
And December?---The are all much the same, except for the week before Christmas.
PN4147
And they - and then what happens?---Demand is higher.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4148
Demand is higher.
PN4149
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Can I just clarify the period - you said, when demand is high and capacity is low you might increase your rates. When you say capacity, do you mean the capacity of the car park or the capacity of the surrounding area?---The surrounding area.
PN4150
Yes, yes.
PN4151
MS FRENZEL: So, if I can take you back to the Hyatt, can you recall what the rate was being charged for casual parking this time last year at the Hyatt? And if you can't, just say no?---I can recall it is not too much different from what it is today.
PN4152
What was it?---From memory it was 3.50 the first half hour, $7 an hour to a maximum of $24, if not $27.
PN4153
And what is it now?---$9 to 27 or 30.
PN4154
And when did it go to $9?
PN4155
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well first of all, are you going on one jump or was it in - - -?---Casual rates. You don't muck around too much. If you make a change you make it once.
PN4156
MS FRENZEL: When did you go to $9?---Following our rent review with the Grand Hyatt.
PN4157
When was that?---Finalised in September.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4158
What is the basis - given that the - would you agree that the car parking fees for the Wilsons Car Parks, do fluctuate?---Yes.
PN4159
What are the basis for those fluctuations?---Demand in the area, loss of tenancies, closure of businesses, companies re-locate, additional capacity being added into the marketplace almost by the month, things like that.
PN4160
And of the additional capacity being added into the industry almost by the month, how much of that has Wilsons been able to secure?---20 per cent.
PN4161
How many new car parks have gone up in the Melbourne CBD in the last 12 months, in your experience?---Three, maybe four.
PN4162
And how many of those car parks were Wilsons able to secure the contract on?---Apart from the purchase of Eureka, none.
PN4163
And how many contracts did you lose in the last 12 months? I am not going to ask you where?---We lost a few.
PN4164
How many is a few?---The difference between probably the list that you showed me here and what is there.
PN4165
Can you tell me what the numbers are?---If you could bear with me I will count. 13.
PN4166
You have lost 13?---Yes.
PN4167
And how many have you gained in the - I am sorry?---Sorry?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4168
In the last 12 months, how many have you gained?---No. We have lost 13 net.
PN4169
You have lost 13 net. How many did you lose gross?
PN4170
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What is the relevance of that?
PN4171
MS FRENZEL: Well it would go to the competitiveness of the industry.
PN4172
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But the net result tells us that, doesn't it?
PN4173
MS FRENZEL: But it is also - I mean it is not clear to me how many new contracts have been gained in the same period. If I lost 13, it is 13 of what?---13 of 81. We had 81 car parks on this list and I have got - - -
PN4174
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just a minute, Mr Larkin. All right, well what is the relevance of the number of car parks they have gained and the competitiveness. I mean, it seems to me I can work out fairly reasonably, what the competitiveness is, knowing that over the course of what was the period, 12 months? They had lost net 13. So, I mean - - -
PN4175
MS FRENZEL: Very well, your Honour.
PN4176
Now, Mr Larkin, part of the case and not by all means the entirety of it, part of the case they employers are putting against the union's application, relates to the fact that a number of these matters should have been or could be dealt with in the future by enterprise bargaining. Now I want to ask you about enterprise bargaining and I want to ask you about enterprise bargaining specifically with respect to those sites not covered by an enterprise agreement, so excluding Crown?---Mm.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4177
And just to be really clear about it before I embark on this, are there any other sites on LHMU17, where there is an enterprise agreement in effect?---With our staff?
PN4178
Yes?---No.
PN4179
Now, can I ask you with respect to your company, whether or not you have sought to deal with the issues raised in your application or some of the issues, so it doesn't have to be all of them, some of them, through enterprise bargaining either directly with the LHMU or by serving proper notices under the Act, on your employees that you want to reach an agreement with them?---We want to clarify the existing award before we take that action.
PN4180
Is your - are your company's motives, with respect to the employer's application, to clarify the award?---We want to see clarity and simplicity so we can deal with something that we all agree and can understand and then explore opportunities to potentially enter into some form of enterprise, not necessarily across the board and it is very hard in our industry to do that, but certainly on a side by side basis to potentially enter into agreements so it serves both parties well.
PN4181
Now, Mr Larkin, you have agreed that there are a number of occasions that the conditions set out, the proposed conditions set out in the employer's application, are different to and in some cases less than the current award. That is correct isn't it?---Where do you think it is less than?
PN4182
For example, if we use the minimum engagement of reduction of four hours to three hours?---Now I think of it, yes.
PN4183
And the exclusion of casuals from weekend penalties, Sunday penalties, public holiday penalties and overtime, those sorts of things, as an example?---The intention is to come to an agreement between both parties. This is our position and you have yours, I am sure we will formulate an agreement in the not too distant future that we can deal with.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4184
No, what I am asking you about is attempts that your company has made to date. I am not talking prospectively. I am talking about attempts your company have made to date, made to negotiate with the union and can I ask you this - has your company made any attempts to negotiate with the union to reach an enterprise agreement to date?---Not to date.
PN4185
Has your company made any attempt to negotiate directly with employees for a certified agreement with employees - it is called a section 170LK agreement, to date?---I think some have, in the past. I can't recall how many, if any.
PN4186
Do you have any agreements other than the Crown Casino agreement, which I have already referred to, which are certified by this Commission?---Apart from the award?
PN4187
I mean apart - agreements aren't awards and vice versa?---I am not aware of any other agreement.
PN4188
Have you sought to discuss the issues you have raised in your application with employees, whether they are members of the union or not through, for example, briefing your area managers, distributing bulletins and the like?---Not really, no.
PN4189
Is it true, Mr Larkin, that the union has attempted to negotiate an enterprise agreement with you, however?---I recall a few years ago it was proposed that we should enter into discussions about an enterprise bargaining agreement but we have two fundamental problems. One is that we have a number of sites where we just can't have a holistic agreement. We would like to do it on a site by site basis but before we even do that, we want to identify where we stand with the award so that we can gain a starting position. We are still not agreeing between ourselves as to terms and conditions contained within the award.
PN4190
When you say agreeing between yourselves, do you mean between the union and the company or between the companies and the company or the employees and the company?---Between the - well primarily between the union and the company.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4191
Now Mr Larkin, with respect to attachment A - - -?---I'm sorry, with?
PN4192
With respect to your proposed application, from Wilson's perspective, and given your evidence, is it fair to say that there are some matters in there which are extremely important to you and other matters which are less important to you, as a company?---Yes, there are a range of importance applied to many of the clauses in that document. I would agree with that.
PN4193
Could you point out to the Commission, from Wilson's perspective only, what you say are the most important claims that you have in attachment A?---
PN4194
MR O'GRADY: How is that relevant, your Honour?
PN4195
MS FRENZEL: It is very relevant.
PN4196
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What is it relevant to?
PN4197
MS FRENZEL: It is relevant to whether or not those matters could have been dealt with through enterprise bargaining.
PN4198
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What do you say about that, Mr O'Grady?
PN4199
MR O'GRADY: Well I don't understand how this witness' prioritisation of the matters set out in attachment A goes to whether or not these matters could or could not have been dealt with by way of enterprise bargaining. The witness has outlined what he understands to be impediments to enterprise bargaining. He has given his evidence about that. Him prioritising matters set out in attachment A doesn't really take the matter any further, with respect.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4200
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But I seem to recall your cross examination of the LHMU witnesses also delved into this issue about the actual clauses that are being sought now, having been sought previously by way of a log of claims for a certified agreement.
PN4201
MR O'GRADY: Indeed, your Honour, but you won't recall me ever saying to Mr Oates, for example, what are the elements in your award variation that you consider to be important or more important than others. We do maintain very clearly that the union had a log of claims a couple of years ago, wanting the same sorts of things. They didn't pursue the mechanisms set out under the Act for enterprise bargaining and now they are seeking to achieve these things through this award variation but that is, in my submission, a fundamentally different point to the issue that Mr Larkin is being asked about now.
PN4202
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well Ms Frenzel is asking Mr Larkin, isn't she, why couldn't you get these things in a certified agreement with the union?
PN4203
MR O'GRADY: And Mr Larkin has explained what he understands to be the impediments to enterprise bargaining to date. My objection is confined to the issue, your Honour, as to what are the important things.
PN4204
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I don't think that is - I mean it is not relevant, I don't think, Ms Frenzel, because whatever Wilson Car Parking might think are important might be entirely different to what each of the other people think are important and at the end of the day, how is that going to assist?
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4205
MS FRENZEL: Well, your Honour, Mr Larkin, when he read the union's proposed regular part-time clause, made the observation that he agreed with it. Now that is a classic example of something that can be dealt with with an enterprise agreement. That is a classic example of something that could be dealt with with an enterprise agreement with the company and they are the sorts of issues that I put to him. He also said with respect to another provision, one which fails me now, that he didn't have - no, I will withdraw that because I can't remember the exact provision but I do remember our discussion regarding regular part-time employment. Now if that is the case, then perhaps some matters of the employer's application can be dealt with by way of enterprise bargaining and the Commission, given the primacy of the Act towards enterprise bargaining, should be informed about those particular matters. If it is the case that Mr Larkin says "they are all important to me", well then it answers the question.
PN4206
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well you might have just answered the question for him. Sorry, Mr O'Grady, what were you going to say?
PN4207
MR O'GRADY: Well it was only that in my submission, Ms Frenzel misstated the effect of Mr Larkin's evidence with respect to clause 11.4.2. Mr Larkin, on the run, was asked to look at parts of 11.4 and indicated well he didn't see a major problem with that part that he was taken to. It hasn't been put to him some of the implications of this clause on his operations and he hasn't been in a position to provide an informed answer with respect to that and if that is the line that my friend seeks to pursue, if she is seeking to say well because of Mr Larkin's answers on the run regarding this particular clause, that is a matter that should be dealt with by way of enterprise bargaining. It highlights the problem.
PN4208
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is part of the submissions, isn't it?
PN4209
MR O'GRADY: Yes, that is right, and it highlights what I say is a problem with this line of cross-examination.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4210
MS FRENZEL: All right, well I will withdraw that and I will deal with something else.
PN4211
Mr Larkin, you said that as a company, you would prefer to do enterprise agreements on a site by site basis. Is that accurate?---We are prepared to look at that in the future after we have clarified this award, yes.
PN4212
Now have there been discussions - - -
PN4213
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, just let me clarify that. You are not prepared to look at an enterprise agreement until such time as the award has been fixed?---We see this as our primary focus today and once that is clarified, we are prepared to consider looking on a site by site basis which deals with all sorts of aspects, including the tenure of that site and other components therein, from that date.
PN4214
MS FRENZEL: The tenure of the site? What would your - just to pick up a point, the tenure of a site, what would be your company's intentions with respect to enterprise bargaining about a tenure of a site?---Well if there were certain conditions applied and an agreement made on a certain site, it would have to take into consideration that the agreement would only last as long as the control of the site under Wilson Parking. Each car park has its own idiosyncrasies and requirements. They are not all the same, I can assure you.
PN4215
I accept that.
PN4216
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you know how much longer you might be, Ms Frenzel?
PN4217
MS FRENZEL: I would like to think I would finish by half past four, your Honour, but I am not convinced about it.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4218
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I actually need to clear out before half past four because there is a video link to be established by half past four.
PN4219
MS FRENZEL: I certainly wouldn't finish in 10 minutes, your Honour.
PN4220
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I mean given that we are not going to finish now in any event, are you just about to go onto something new?
PN4221
MS FRENZEL: I was, yes.
PN4222
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well it seems it might be, subject to what the parties think, a convenient time to finish up now. I will see what Mr O'Grady has to say. Mr O'Grady, what do you say about that?
PN4223
MR O'GRADY: Sorry, your Honour, I was getting instructions.
PN4224
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I was saying given that it isn't apparent that Ms Frenzel is going to finish her cross examination today, the fact that I have to probably adjourn at a quarter past four to have the television or the video link established, is there any difficulty with adjourning now?
PN4225
MR O'GRADY: There is no difficulty other than with respect to this issue and I don't think there is anything that can be done about it. Mr Larkin is currently on annual leave - - -
PN4226
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I heard him say that.
PN4227
MR O'GRADY: - - - and as I understand it, he has got some people visiting him from overseas at the moment and he hasn't been able to see them. Now I think the reality is, of course, even if we were to sit until 4.30, then he wouldn't be completing his evidence today in any event.
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4228
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No. Well I don't know about that. Ms Frenzel said she hoped she could finish by 4.30.
PN4229
MR O'GRADY: Yes, but given the length of her cross examination, there are probably some issues that I am going to have to raise in re-examination so there is no issue with respect to the adjournment. The only issue might be whether or not - and this is probably an unsatisfactory alternative, if Mr Larkin were to suspend his evidence and perhaps other witnesses commence tomorrow but I don't see that that is a satisfactory way of dealing with things. I simply raise it conscious of the personal issue, your Honour.
PN4230
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The difficulty I have with that is, if we don't get back to this until next February, we might find Mr Larkin in the witness box for the same amount of time that he has already been in.
PN4231
MR O'GRADY: I accept that, your Honour and I am sure, your Honour, having been informed of that, Mr Larkin would not see that as a desirable outcome either. But I only raise that your Honour, I otherwise have no objection to adjourning at this point in time.
PN4232
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. All right. Well - sorry do you want to say something Ms Frenzel?
PN4233
MS FRENZEL: Nothing about that, your Honour, just one little point of housekeeping which I can rectify now.
PN4234
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What I am proposing to do, subject to everybody agreeing that we adjourn now, is to excuse Mr Larkin for the present time until tomorrow morning and we can go off the record and have some discussions about further programming. But if there is something you formally want to do, tender it - - -
**** JOHN LARKIN XXN MS FRENZEL
PN4235
MS FRENZEL: Just a very small housekeeping matter. The Commission will recall that when we opened our case we indicated that the simplified award required a correction order.
PN4236
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN4237
PN4238
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Larkin, you are excused for the time being. Unfortunately, you have to return tomorrow. It is regrettable you are missing out on some of your annual leave?---That is the way it goes. Is that yours?
PN4239
PN4240
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is there anything else you want to deal with before I go off the record? No. Well we will go off the record.
OFF THE RECORD
PN4241
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: During the course of the brief adjournment, there have been some discussions about the programming for the continuation of this hearing after tomorrow. And I will set aside the four days beginning 28 January and then from 3 to 5 February. Those were the dates, is that correct?
PN4242
MR O'GRADY: Yes, your Honour.
PN4243
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Very well. Anything else? No. The matter is adjourned until tomorrow morning.
ADJOURNED UNTIL FRIDAY, 22 NOVEMBER 2002 [4.14pm]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
JOHN LARKIN, ON FORMER OATH PN2919
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS FRENZEL PN2919
EXHIBIT #MFI LHMU16 BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS PN3287
WITNESS WITHDREW PN3958
JOHN LARKIN, ON FORMER OATH PN3996
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS FRENZEL PN3996
EXHIBIT #LHMU17 CAR PARK INDEX IN P NUMBER ORDER PN4096
EXHIBIT #LHMU18 CORRECTION ORDER PN4238
WITNESS WITHDREW PN4240
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