D'Souza, Carl; Gibson, Melodie --- "Interview with an Indigenous Lawyer: Shaz Rind" [2003] IndigLawB 27; (2003) 5(24) Indigenous Law Bulletin 12

• Interview With An Indigenous Lawyer: Shaz Rind
• What Is Your Background?
• How And Why Did You Become A Lawyer?
• Could You Describe Your Job?
• Which Area Of The Law Is Most Important For Indigenous People?
• How Would You Change The Law?
• What Is Your Message To Indigenous Youth?

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Interview with an Indigenous Lawyer: Shaz Rind

by Carl D’Souza and Melodie Gibson

What is your background?

I am of Yamatji and Baluchi (‘Afghan’ camel drivers) decent. My great grandmother was from the Badimaya clan of the Yamatji Tribe in the Murchison District of Western Australia (‘WA’), and my grandfather was born in Mount Magnet in WA. He was taken away at 12 years of age.

I spent most of my younger life in the Pilbara town of Goldsworthy/Port Hedland. We moved around a lot because of my father’s work. I then went to boarding school in Geraldton WA, and went home to Koolan Island on my breaks. It was excellent living north west of WA, you get a real appreciation for the vast and beautiful nature of the Aboriginal lands called ‘Australia’.

How and why did you become a lawyer?

Going to University was never in my wildest dreams until one of my family members woke me up to the fact that education is the only reasonable way for Aboriginal people to get anywhere. I was a high school drop out. So I started the Aboriginal Orientation Course at the University of Western Australia’s (‘UWA’) Centre for Aboriginal Programmes (‘the Centre’). They were a great support. Having other Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander brothers and sisters to study with, argue with and learn from gave me an insight into Indigenous affairs I had never had before. The grassroots struggle was being translated into Aboriginal people realising the fundamental importance of learning both about themselves and the western system. The experience of university changed my life. I now have great respect for my indigenous and non-indigenous lecturers and mentors. We can learn and understand a great deal more with a good education.

I started studying a Bachelor of Arts. After one year I was encouraged by the staff at Centre to undertake a five week pre-law course. I did not know if law was for me but the pre-law course changed that. I then undertook a Bachelor of Laws. I must admit that Law is not an easy course, but UWA had a great program and I learned a great deal.

I practice law because it is what I am trained to do and it does provide outcomes for our people. We are defined by the legal system and we are at its mercy. The law was and is still used to control us. The question is how we can use the legal system to our advantage? Knowing the law means knowing where we stand in Australia. However, the advantages to be gained through the legal system are limited and can never be the final answer.

Could you describe your job?

I am currently working as a Solicitor at the Public Interest Advocacy Centre (‘PIAC’) in Sydney on the Indigenous Justice Project. I provide legal advice and conduct litigation on behalf of indigenous and non-indigenous clients from many jurisdictions, on a wide range of legal issues. My focus is on discrimination and civil liberties, including police and custody issues. PIAC only takes on public interest matters, that is, cases which go beyond the interests of the individuals involved and which affect the human rights of groups and communities. Most of my work is pro bono, that is, we do not seek payment from our clients. In many cases we seek a grant of aid on behalf of the client from the Legal Aid Commission.

Part of my work with PIAC is to consult with Aboriginal Legal Services, Community Legal Centres and Aboriginal organisations to discuss our work and to learn from a grass roots perspective about some of the issues affecting Indigenous communities. I am always trying to learn from the people at the coalface. The more people I speak to, including many elders, the greater insight into the community I achieve.

The most challenging aspect of my work is to ensure that my clients are aware of the complexities of legal problems and the limitations of the law. I try being realistic with my advice and do not give people high expectations. I aim to achieve practical outcomes. For example, litigation is a long and slow process that takes years to reach fruition. I have facilitated a few conciliations where my clients and the other parties have reached an amicable outcome, and avoided litigation.

Which area of the law is most important for Indigenous people?

The law recognising native title has been very important. Especially the Mabo,[1] Coe[2] and Wik[3] cases. Mabo[4] identified the fallacies about how ‘Australia’ was taken from its original owners. Claimants in native title cases have correctly argued that Aboriginal people belong to Tribes and Nations. We are sovereign peoples that have always had sovereignty over this land.

However, the courts cannot decide the question of sovereignty because the sovereign crown creates them. Furthermore, Coe[5] clearly stated that the laws of the Commonwealth of Australia completely bind Aboriginal people and any claim to our land. Non-Indigenous people recognised our right to this land and then said the crown owns it, and if you want any of it back then go jump through all the hoops of the Native Title Act 1993 (Cth). Then they continuously raised the burden of proof to prove native title with every case. The recent Yorta Yorta and De Rose Hill cases now make it virtually impossible to prove ‘traditional ownership and continued connection’.

The only real positives from the native title laws are some Indigenous land use agreements where communities who have not been totally displaced have negotiated rights and achieved practical outcomes for their communities. However, we have to realise the limits of what the legal system can do for us. It is up to Indigenous people to take the next step. We must take control of our daily lives, and respect our elders, women, children, families and differences.

How would you change the law?

We need a system which achieves substantive equality, and which recognises and protects our human rights, and our special social and economic rights and interests as first peoples. I would have another constitution and system of governance, perhaps similar to New Zealand’s or Canada’s.

What is your message to Indigenous youth?

We need Indigenous professionals in all areas, especially medicine and law. I encourage all high school students to think about university, and consider that there is a lot of support available for Indigenous students to complete university. I would love to have more Indigenous lawyers working in my field because it is needed. We must keep up the struggle within the means available to our people.

We must start to pay more respect to our elders and families. We must start to take greater control of our lives and be responsible for our actions. I came to the realisation that we have to learn to survive in the current political and legal environment. I understand that it is difficult, but we must remain strong and united in our struggle for equal rights and justice. This will improve the ability of our people to participate on an economic, political and social level in this country.

Shaz Rind is president of Ngalaya Aboriginal Corporation, and of Indigenous Lawyers in NSW. Admitted solicitor of the Supreme Court of NSW, ACT and WA. Also admitted to the High Court of Australia. You can contact Shaz on [phone] or [e-mail]

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[1] Mabo v Queensland (No 2) [1992] HCA 23; (1992) 107 ALR 1

[2] [1979] HCA 68; (1979) 53 ALJR 403

[3] The Wik Peoples v The State of Queensland & Ors (1996) 187 CLR 1

[4] Above n 1

[5] [1979] HCA 68; (1979) 53 ALJR 403